Abe may make offering to Yasukuni Shrine through representative, media report

I've heard that in the Shinto religion, enshrined spirits cannot be removed, and I respect that.

But is there any chance it can be done just once? You know, bend the rules a little for the sake of world peace? I mean let's face it, it's not as if the spirits are actually swirling around in a huge ball, "Spirited Away" style.

Of course I kid, but I despair at this debate raging on and on.. and on.. and on..

Directly? through a representative? Still the same person giving the same shrine money.

as long as Japan believes it can control spirits this nonsense will continue. Just have a shrine about war dead that doesn't involve war criminals. That Yasukuni jinja has been effectively defaced since 1988? or whenever Nakasone had the Class-A's put in is the only sad action that will never end. I can hardly accept as fair that a 19th century shrine devoted to service to the Emperor should remain under such a burden.

Either redo the Class-A's somewhere else, freeing Yasukuni at last, or use another shrine that isn't tainted with the Class-A's but can still be used as a memorial. The bureaucracy of Japan does not extend beyond the grave (!) and for that there will always be an option for Japan to save itself from constant recrimination. One day

That Yasukuni jinja has been effectively defaced since 1988? or whenever Nakasone had the Class-A's put in is the only sad action that will never end. I can hardly accept as fair that a 19th century shrine devoted to service to the Emperor should remain under such a burden.

True, rightly or wrongly Yasukuni has been tainted irreparably in the eyes of many, which is a great shame because it's the Japanese equivalent to a historic cathedral.

I would be very,very happy if Abe-san going to Yasukuni shrine, in addition to Yasukuni Shrine is a sacred place to all Japanese people.

Mitch CohenAug. 14, 2013 - 02:21PM JST

True, rightly or wrongly Yasukuni has been tainted irreparably in the eyes of many, which is a great shame because it's the Japanese equivalent to a historic cathedral.

How many catherdrals do you know with an adjoining museum that has a suicide torpedo at their entrance?

How many catherdrals do you know with an adjoining museum that has a suicide torpedo at their entrance?

I didn't know that. Had to google it myself.

Over 4,000 Japanese pilots committed suicide bombing in the closing stages of WW2.. I often wonder what drives even a single person to commit suicide bombing, let alone 4,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:72nd_Shinbu_1945_Kamikaze.jpg The 17-year old pilot holding the puppy in this picture died the next day in a suicide mission (source: wikipedia).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Chiran_high_school_girls_wave_kamikaze_pilot.jpg Japanese high school students wave goodbye at a suicide bomber.

Sobering stuff.

This isn't something I personally agree with, but you all have it backwards... In the eyes of the Shinto religion, the shrine cannot be tainted by interring or commemorating anyone, since the act of interring them 'purifies' the people interred/commemorated.

Thus as soon as the class A war criminals were enshrined there, from the Shinto perspective they became effectively 'pure'.

Mitch CohenAug. 14, 2013 - 02:49PM JST

I didn't know that. Had to google it myself.

You should visit it sometime. The whole facade of Yasukuni is very very ugly, including the coca cola machine on the way to the musuem from the shrine. It reeks of denial, death and excuses.

I don't think anyone would begrudge the Japanese a war memorial to the dead who gave their lives for their country, something along the lines of the apolitical cenotaph, but Yasukuni is not it.

Mitch.

Most of those pilots were not volunteers and were declared kia before they took off. Their planes were fueled to reach their targets only.

Sad but a bit of research helps.

TokyoTanuki: "This isn't something I personally agree with, but you all have it backwards... In the eyes of the Shinto religion, the shrine cannot be tainted by interring or commemorating anyone, since the act of interring them 'purifies' the people interred/commemorated."

That MIGHT hold a little water if the shrine museum and grounds didn't pay such high tribute to people who committed suicide 'in the service of the emperor'. It glorifies their deaths, not mourns them. Dog is correct, no one would begrudge Japan a war memorial commemorating the dead soldiers and citizens (or either or) who died in war, but Yasukuni is more political than anything.

What slimy behavior.

Abe has publicly stated how it is his "biggest regret" it was that he didn't visit yasukuni in his first term. Now he will show - yet again - he does not have the guts to visit this term. I'm sure his office will come up with some lame excuse to try and save face!

...through a representative? is it Isao Iijima who went to NKorea and Beijing as Abe's special envoy? It would be better if Abe himself visits Yasukuni Shrine this time.

issa1: "I would be very,very happy if Abe-san going to Yasukuni shrine,"

Just out of curiosity, why? It certainly cannot be for any apolitical reasons, which is why the shrine is a problem.

Visiting Yasukuni by proxy?

You mean appearing not to visit, while at the same time covertly visiting by sending someone along to visit for you?

That's just two faced cowardice.

You mean appearing not to visit, while at the same time covertly visiting by sending someone along to visit for you?

That's just two faced cowardice.

Isn't this what all the Japan and Abe haters keep saying he should do? NOT visit Yasukuni and pay find another way to pay his respects. When he does exactly that, he is vilified for doing what the haters demanded of him.

Picky picky.

Isn't this what all the Japan and Abe haters keep saying he should do? NOT visit Yasukuni and pay find another way to pay his respects. When he does exactly that, he is vilified for doing what the haters demanded of him.

Abe took the high road in deciding not to visit Yasukuni, and personally I wouldn't quibble over his offering. Abe said he regretted not visiting Yasukuni but he chose again not to go. Putting his wants aside for what would benefit his country, which is commendable.

If you look into the details, the spirits of all war dead go to Yasukuni Shrine, whether they are "enshrined" there or not. "Enshrine" only means that they put a stick with your name on it in the shrine. The stick is a ritual formality. The A class criminals are there whether or not you put a stick with their name on it in the shrine. Also, there are no actual remains of Japanese soldiers there. The only actual remains are Korean soldiers who fought for the Japanese (I heard there are some remains of Chinese who fought for the Japanese but I can't confirm this - it may be a rumor).

Abe took the high road in deciding not to visit Yasukuni, and personally I wouldn't quibble over his offering. Abe said he regretted not visiting Yasukuni but he chose again not to go. Putting his wants aside for what would benefit his country, which is commendable.

Respect. But that Bertie cat called him a coward. On the internet, on a forum, he called him a coward. Stick and stones and pots and kettles.

Abe did what the haters demand. Hate him all you like, but respect the decision.

Mitch CohenAug. 14, 2013 - 02:03PM JST

I've heard that in the Shinto religion, enshrined spirits cannot be removed, and I respect that.

But is there any chance it can be done just once

Yes, there were a lot of high ranking Japanese politicians, mostly LDP members, who tried to persuade Yasukuni to divide the spirits. But Yasukuni did not listen to them. War criminals were enshrined in 1978. Even Emperor Showa was infuriated by the enshrinement, as recorded in a diary of his chief steward.

But Yasukuni is a disappearing organization. The shrine is run by the donation of the former soldiers and surviving families of the soldiers killed during the war. Politicians go to the shrine to tap the votes of the veterans and surviving families. They are already very old and, in a decade or so, they are all gone. At that time, the shrine will be gone, too.

They are already very old and, in a decade or so, they are all gone. At that time, the shrine will be gone, too.

I don't know about that. I have been to Yasukuni a few times and every time there was A LOT of people there. Paying respects, throwing yenjamins, clap clap, bow. And, seriously, MOST of them were not old. True story.

Owens, yes, there are a lot of young people who visit Yasukuni and donate 5 yen or 10 yen. But the shrine cannot be maintained by coins. The shrine is maintained by the periodical regular donations by the veterans and surviving families.

The shrine is maintained by the periodical regular donations by the veterans and surviving families

Family obligation is strong in Japanese culture, no? Is it so absurd to assume that the family members will continue the tradition?

Over 4,000 Japanese pilots committed suicide bombing in the closing stages of WW2.. I often wonder what drives even a single person to commit suicide bombing, let alone 4,000.

They were driven by a strongest Love to their Motherland. They were ready to defend Japan by paying an ultimate price. Nowadays your North neighbours are ready to do the same.

I often wonder what drives even a single person to commit suicide bombing, let alone 4,000.

Brainwashing.

I've heard that in the Shinto religion, enshrined spirits cannot be removed

And I've heard that in Christianity, it's ok to murder someone who don't listen to priests, who are fortune-tellers, who curse their parents or who commit adultery. All religions are man-made and made of nonsense.

How many catherdrals do you know with an adjoining museum that has a suicide torpedo at their entrance?

That museum is full of sick lies. Been there, seen it, Good thing someone else paid for my ticket.

Abe has publicly stated how it is his "biggest regret" it was that he didn't visit yasukuni in his first term.

I wonder, did he say this before or after he knew he was going to get another chance on the PM merry-go-round? This two-faced 八方美人 act is wearing thin. Frankly, if he wants to go, then go. There's no rule in the book that says China and South Korea must do business with Japan.

Owens, it is hard even for Japanese to donate sum of money every year for life for someone who he never met. How much money will a Japanese donate for his relative? Not much.

Owens, it is hard even for Japanese to donate sum of money every year for life for someone who he never met. How much money will a Japanese donate for his relative? Not much.

The Japanese give away billions....TRILLIONS!!.....of yen to foreigners via foreign aid, ODA, charity, etc. Which is a major reason why the government is broke.

Besides, I'm willing to bet that tens of thousdands of coins donated every day add to quite a tidy some. Not to mention ticket sales, private corporate donations, etc etc etc. I assure you, the the shrine has FAR more sources of revenue than a few old, crusty family members.

Get serious. You're not convincing anyone with those lame arguments. Yasukuni has been around since longer before WWII and it will be here long after.

CH3CHO: " They are already very old and, in a decade or so, they are all gone. At that time, the shrine will be gone, too."

Nah, not when you've got the grandkids of war criminals as leaders of the nation. Then it is literally the tax money of every person in the nation going towards the shrine with his donation. This shrine, if it wants to continue to exist, should become apolitical and remove all war criminal remains. Until then, good riddance!

Another insoluble problem for Sino-Japanese relations. With strong negative sentiments present on both sides of the East China sea I don't think anyone has a true intention of improving the diplomatic relations.

Abe never learn from his mistakes.

To the United States Abe wags his tail, but to China and South Korea he's an ass in the lion's skin.

Its worrying that this behaviour is tollerated. Killing your own countrymen to serve a military purpose and then give them some glorification at little cost. You know how the Abe government will treat us if they get a majority.

why bother? just go already by yourself already

your not foolin anyone anyway

Wow! Being disrespectful to all nations that have beef with the Yasakuni Shrine issue AND the dead! Double whammy!

You know how the Abe government will treat us if they get a majority.

Huh? What spaceship did you get off, Tiger? Don't you ever read the news on this site? Or a newspaper? They do have a majority -- in both houses of the Diet. (And while we're on the subject, who is "us," by the way?)

Abe may make offering to Yasukuni Shrine through representative

i would suggest pay-pal !

The guy "might" make an offering and its all over the media. Does this put the old "he can go privately and not invite the cameras" fable to rest once and for all?

Given the ludicrous statements coming from ROK and PRC I think Abe should just go to the shrine anyway. Why even try to play nice if your counterparts are going to act like idiots?

C'mone Abe. You're a big boy now. Why don't you go to Yasukuni??

smithinjapanAug. 14, 2013 - 05:50PM JST

CH3CHO: " They are already very old and, in a decade or so, they are all gone. At that time, the shrine will be gone, too."

Nah, not when you've got the grandkids of war criminals as leaders of the nation.

Who do you mean? Kishi Nobusuke, who is a grand father of PM Abe, was once suspected of war crime but has not been convicted or indicted. Let me advise you that defamation is a crime in Japan. In addition, why is it in plural form? The quality of the comment section depends on the quality of commenters.

One more thing to add is that there are a lot of court ruling in Japan that a facilitator of an electric bulletin board is guilty of being accessory to defamation if he knowingly leaves defamatory message on the bulletin board unchecked.

I wish internet is free of misinformation.

Come on, Abe. If it's so correct to go to Yasukuni why don't you go?

What he does does not bother anyone any more. He has fallen so far off the cliff that whatever he tries to do to put himself back in any one's good light is already too late. Bad reputation, bad character, devoid of credibility and integrity. The fun is just beginning; just string him along.

actually, the best way to deal with this Bruhaha is for Japan to ignore Korea and not make public statements on the shrine. Eventually, Korea and China will get the hint

Tbh nothing Japan does will ever be good enough for China and South Korea. So stuff them let them stay stuck in the past. The rest of us including Abe should honour the Japanese soldiers who died during war.

The annual silly season in Japan kicks off in style. Yasukuni is a freakshow, be it nutter rightwingers in military garb, chubby members of the LDP waddling around like overfed penguins in their morning suits or that appalling museum which is an affront to the decent people of Japan. Japan needs a respectable memorial to its war dead, not this grotesque rogue's gallery.

I don't understand why they are so insistent on visiting the shrine. What's really in it for them? I'm sure that if the US told him to not visit the shrine, then he wouldn't.

As I understood it, Abe was to forgo paying a visit to Yasukuni as a gesture of goodwill toward mending relations with Japan's former Asian colonies. This latest work-around seems petty, and intended to provoke hard feelings.

A country of Japan's stature should take a more mature approach to international relations. Instead, these politicians seem bent on generating international resentment and contempt by rescinding past apologies and constantly looking to exploit loopholes in a laundry list of international laws agreements.

Abe's grandpa Kishi along with other A class people were released after Truman ordered GHQ to stop Russian Communism spreading in Japan. Kishi created a political party and Japan escaped from Russinan communism. Abe's family root is from Yamaguchi Prefecture where many people are descendents from Boshin War died soldiers who were enshrined in Yasukuni. Kishi was too friendly that then right wing tried to kill him when he returned from USA. He was not hang like Tojo who shielded Emperor from hanging. 6 others were hang,too . 1948 .

@smith

remove all war criminal remains. Until then good riddance!

Sorry smith, no "remains" at Yasakuni, only spirits...

Tbh nothing Japan does will ever be good enough for China and South Korea. So stuff them let them stay stuck in the past. The rest of us including Abe should honour the Japanese soldiers who died during war.

@KariHaruka: You don't know that. What is it with foreigners who are drawn to Japan due to their pop culture or business opportunities, and within a few years they adopt ultra-nationalistic views?

A country of Japan's stature should take a more mature approach to international relations.

Agreed. A country of Japan's stature should not have senior politicians openly denying the Nanjing massacre, coercion of comfort women, and constantly attempt to revise history.

The annual silly season in Japan kicks off in style. Yasukuni is a freakshow, be it nutter rightwingers in military garb, chubby members of the LDP waddling around like overfed penguins in their morning suits or that appalling museum which is an affront to the decent people of Japan. Japan needs a respectable memorial to its war dead, not this grotesque rogue's gallery.

Thank you Jimizo. But sadly your opinions won't be popular among this crowd.

As I understood it, Abe was to forgo paying a visit to Yasukuni as a gesture of goodwill toward mending relations with Japan's former Asian colonies. This latest work-around seems petty, and intended to provoke hard feelings.

As you know the Japanese send their formal regards when they are not able to attend any functions of note. Go to a wedding and see how many messages (from big shots who were too busy to attend in person) get read out before anything can start. I imagine the PM needs a full time person just to send out all his summer gifts and acknowledgements. So its not a "work around" at all, its normal Japanese culture at work. Pretty rude for people to say otherwise imo. Furthermore, it was clearly mentioned in the article I read back a week or so that Mr Abe would likely not be attending in person but would probably convey a gift with his respects, as he had done in the past. So it should come as no surprise to anyone now that that is what he is planning to do.

Are you suggesting that the PM of a free democracy is not allowed to convey his wishes to a shrine devoted to all who have fallen in battle in his country since the 1800s? Its so unbelievable to me that there are people who honestly advocate for that.

@Hidingout I find it equally unbelievable that your mail didn't mention the fact that war criminals are enshrined here in your apology for this. Your post reminds me of a dodgy real estate agent trying to sell a house without taking me to the rat-infested cellar.

So that's Jimizo firmly standing up against freedom of religion in democracies then. Good on you sir.

I've been to Yasukini several times. Its nothing like what you portray it to be.

I've prayed at Yusukini Shrine one Aug 15th a couple years ago, and my father was a WWI veteran (American) who lost many dear friends. It's never wrong to pray for the deceased.

@hidingout People are free to visit this place and have their intelligence insulted by the museum. When did I say anything about suppressing people's right to debauch their brain? You're not addressing my point. Japan has the right to honour those who died for their country, many of whom were sent to their deaths by the type of foul specimen enshrined alongside them. A monument honouring the honourable would allow decent people to pay due respects without the monstrosities surrounding it.

I don't understand this at all. If a German politician paid tribute to a private war museum/memorial site that included war criminals like Hitler, then I'm sure they wouldn't be able to get away with it without being called a Nazi, etc. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY'RE DOING! Nobody outside of Japan agrees with what they're doing. The crazy right-wingers are fooling themselves thinking this is the right thing to do.

thats not so bad news for Japan, but not so good. I think Abe believe that ROK and China does not have a right to protest against visiting Yasukuni shrine, at least ROK. (China may have it). If Japanese politician stop visiting Yasukuni shrine, then how many of you think that ROK and China would change their anti-Japanese policy and their attitude? If Japanese politician stop doing it, then ROK and China would judge that Japan abundant to keep doing provocations, which means whatever they request to Japan, then Japan just follow ROK and China. Japan should not bend in the face of strong opposition of China and ROK. Japan should follow what they have been believing. Yasukuni shrine visits is totally a part of internal administration of Japan, so no country can protest it even Japan already finished to apologize and compensation. If anyone who may think that Japan never done that kind of things, then just learn what Japan did after World War2, and let me know why you think that Japan never done that kind of things enough.

Mitch CohenAug. 14, 2013 - 09:36PM JST @KariHaruka: You don't know that. What is it with foreigners who are drawn to Japan due to their pop culture or business opportunities, and within a few years they adopt ultra-nationalistic views?

I'm sorry but do you know me personally? Who's to say that I was drawn to Japan due to the pop culture or business opportunities? People can't be drawn to Japan due to its rich history and culture?

So say I've adopted ultra nationalistic views is utter rubbish. Apparently I'm a nationalist because I believe politicians should be allowed to respect the war dead? And yes no matter how many times Japan apologizes or compensation is handed out (1965). It won't ever be good enough because China and SK are hell bent on hating Japan no matter what.

I don't see the Philippines or any of the other South East Asian nations that were under the Empire of Japan constantly whinging about Japan.

KariHaruka

So say I've adopted ultra nationalistic views is utter rubbish. Apparently I'm a nationalist because I believe politicians should be allowed to respect the war dead?

Do they have to do it in a nationalist war museum with revisionist undertones?

Yasukuni Shrine also operates a war museum of the history of Japan (the Yūshūkan), which some observers have criticized as presenting a revisionist interpretation. A documentary-style video shown to museum visitors portrays Japan's conquest of East Asia during the pre-World War II period as an effort to save the region from the imperial advances of the colonial Western powers called the "Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere". Displays portray Japan as a victim of foreign influence, especially Western undermining of trade.

Critics say the museum fails to portray any atrocities committed by the Japanese Imperial Army. On the invasion of Nanking, the museum omits any mention of the massacre and states that "General Iwane Matsui issued orders to observe military rules to the letter. The Japanese established a safety zone for Chinese civilians and made a special effort to protect historical and cultural sites. Inside the city, residents were once again able to live their lives in peace."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_surrounding_Yasukuni_Shrine

I don't see the Philippines or any of the other South East Asian nations that were under the Empire of Japan constantly whinging about Japan.

I don't think that most South East Asian countries are economically strong enough to alienate their relations with Japan, but Taiwan has also complained in the past.

i think the Yasukuni shrine here is still a problem not only to people but to local politicians themselves being refrained from not visiting it on the right time or any time they should! i wonder if those run the Yasukuni shrine can try to also adapt to the current views (and perhaps allow more flexibility/adaptability) rather than just sticking to some of its belief (s) that may not work well with what the current requires. i think religion as well is only about spiritual well-being rather than creating some kind of nationalistic feelings among the populous or allowing some space for other countries to protest, etc.

Ridiculous. If he's going to give an offering, he should do it himself instead of sidestepping. Sending a rep won't make China less displeased so if he's going to cross that line, he should be on his own feet. Or not go at all. There isn't much grey in this case.

If PM Abe wants to show real statesmanship, he needs to look at a rational view of the situation, who says,"This is bad for Japan, and I won't go." I don't know if that's Abe. Yasukuni is a losing diplomatic issue for Japan, but there's always been support at home, especially among older Japanese. In a political situation for Abe, what succeeds in domestic politics is wrecking the country's reputation abroad. And that leaves Japan goverment in something of a bind. If Abe visits Yasukuni after becoming PM, he could destroy Japan's best chance in years to repair relations with China and South Korea. If he decides not to go, he could be seen as kneeling and bowing his forehead to the ground to Chinese wishes.

Owens Aug. 14, 2013 - 05:46PM JST The Japanese give away billions....TRILLIONS!!.....of yen to foreigners via foreign aid, ODA, charity, etc. Which is a major reason why the government is broke. Besides, I'm willing to bet that tens of thousdands of coins donated every day add to quite a tidy some. Not to mention ticket sales, private corporate donations, etc etc etc. I assure you, the the shrine has FAR more sources of revenue than a few old, crusty family members. Get serious. You're not convincing anyone with those lame arguments. Yasukuni has been around since longer before WWII and it will be here long after.

Sure Japan gave away billions on ODA, but Japan has missed opportunities for overseas investment while China became more aggressive abroad and they looking to catch up with China in pursuing resources, markets and influence on Southeast Asia and Africa. The economic growth is luring Japanese exporters, while the government wants to tap the natural gas and oil there after the Fukushima disaster led to the closing of Japan’s nuclear plants. China has become a far greater presence than Japan in Southeast Asia and Africa. Most of Japan’s current purchases from Africa consist of metals and fuels, including natural gas imports and they re seeking rare earth metals from South Africa. While Japan exports mostly vehicles and machinery. You have not been able to develop an overall national Japanese perspective of what is in Japan’s interests and make a decision. The Chinese were able to do that. China does service the relationship in Southeast Asia and Africa. However, on many top level visits, Japan is invisible, but Japan wants their gas, oil, and minerals at the same time. Terrible thing.

As far as Yasukuni visits are concerned, get respectable journalists to interview educated Singaporeans, Malaysians, Filipinos, Myanmese, Vietnamese, British, Australians and other SEAsians and ask them what they think. Someone says when you enshrine someone in Yasukuni, the spirit be omes pure. Maybe they should enshrine Hitler and let his spirit be pure! Abe can continue his nonsense and help Japan stroll into greater mediocrity. Japan in the 80s was peerless. But look at them now in comparison to other Asian nations. The difference is no longer so starkly clear!

PM Abe's decision is commendable and could be a hard one he made. It's really commendable to put aside one's personal wants for the sake of peace.People who are constantly watching the moves of politicians during these times are the ones making the visits political. This is obon. Is it bad to pay respect to the dead ? In this part of the world they're heroes. Nothing less! I'm from the Phils and so many atrocities were committed during war and most of them were in cohorts of some locals. But that's one ugly facet of war. Do I have to wriggle each and every Japanese I meet and force them to apologize for something not even their grandparents did? What right have I to stop them from visiting the dead they want to visit and offer even mere flowers and prayers!

@sfjp330 - Much of China's current success was built on the back of massive Japanese investment over decades - the Chinese didn't pull all the finance needed to develop their infrastructure out of thin air. Of course the CCP never mentions this and hides it from its own population, being content to claim the laurels for themselves as a propaganda exercise - while whipping up hatred against the nation that funded their success.