Abe unlikely to visit Yasukuni Shrine on Aug 15 - media

Doesn't matter if he goes on August 15th or not, if he is truly interested in improving the ties with China and South Korea that Japan has he won't even contemplate a visit at any time.

will make no difference, better he should visit and then find/fix a new PM.

better he should visit and then find/fix a new PM.

With the LDP controlling the Diet, hardly. Watch, I'll bet hundreds of them will make a visit together like they did last year!

Indeed...

You are mistaken in thinking that Chinese government wants Japanese politicians to refrain from Yasukuni visit. In the spring of this year, record 168 J-goverment reps visited the Yasukuni to pray and honor 14 Class A and 2 million Imperial soldiers and still look at themselves as victims. Majority of these soldiers were involved in massacure of millions of Chinese civilians. The hardliners In China may be popping champagne now, because this Yasukuni visit “proved” that they are right all along that Japan is dangerous.

I don't believe Abe will visit Yasukuni Shrine on August 15. Last year 55 members of the National Diet visited the Shrine.

sfjp330Jul. 26, 2013 - 08:08AM JST Majority of these soldiers were involved in massacure of millions of Chinese civilians

You really are grossly mistaken. How many Chinese civilians were "massacred: in the First World War? The Russo-Japanese War? The SIno-Japanese War (1894). How about the Boshin war? How many Chinese civilians were "massacred" by Japanese soldiers fighting the U.S. in the Pacific theater? It's this kind of hate breeding nonsense that knocks the steam out of legitimate Chinese complaints.

OssanAmerica Jul. 26, 2013 - 09:00AM JST You really are grossly mistaken. How many Chinese civilians were "massacred: in the First World War? The Russo-Japanese War? The SIno-Japanese War (1894). How about the Boshin war? How many Chinese civilians were "massacred" by Japanese soldiers fighting the U.S. in the Pacific theater? It's this kind of hate breeding nonsense that knocks the steam out of legitimate Chinese complaints.

OssanJapan....The arguments you are presenting your viewpoint are certainly not getting any better. In fact, not only are they getting worse, but they also betray your lack of respect for people. These were and are war criminals, people who have knowingly committed horrendous deeds to individuals in neighboring countries. Even Abe knews this, yet he still visited the shrine last September, and even today, these J-goverment reps are still doing the same thing. In fact, all of these goverment reps has the knowledge that what they are doing is angering other countries. Is it really to the benefit of Japan that they pushing Japan farther and farther away from others? That Japanese culture treats all dead as innocent does not mean everyone else should follow that same mindset. That this affects other nations suggests that the Japanese ought to take into consideration their actions on others, too. This is not simply a domestic matter.

What is up with these right-wingers? Stop visiting the damn shrine already.

@sfjp330 Let's take your argument in reverse. Shouldn't other countries respect Japan's culture, at least within the boundaries of its own borders? Why must Japan respect other people's opinions, and not the reverse? It seems you take Japan's sovereignty very lightly.

Certainly, a great many of the soldiers participated in the invasion of China. But it is generally agreed participating in an invasion NOT a war crime make (otherwise, countless American soldiers will be guilty for participating, far more voluntarily than the Japanese were, in the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan).

Kazuaki, you are right, nobody will accuse military forces engaged in invasion of any country as a war crime in and of itself. However, it is generally agreed that the invading forces of Japan commited war crimes after they invaded China.

I still do not understand why this becomes a big deal.

I still do not understand why this becomes a big deal.

Many Japanese think this way.

@ OssanAmerica

War criminals should not be buried with those that gave their lives to protect the country in the same shrine. Full stop.

As a Japanese, Mr Abe has every right to visit-This Shrine is NOT one bit less a place to honor their war dead than any other military cemetary where so many young lives were lost to Evil,as all wars are. The War is Over & DONE! Lets get to aiding the living while we're still here.

Good that he can summon up the willpower not to go to Yasukuni. As for war criminals, is it just possible that one side's heroes might be the other side's war criminals? Bomber Harris and Dresden? People who dropped A-bomb? Legions of Russian soldiers who indiscriminately shot captives, raped women etc etc?

Many Japanese don't think that it's a "big deal" because they've never been taught proper history. Actually generally it's only the right-wingers who think that way. They should pull their collective heads out of the sand already.

As a Japanese, Mr Abe has every right to visit-This Shrine is NOT one bit less a place to honor their war dead than any other military cemetary where so many young lives were lost to Evil,as all wars are.

It doesn't matter if you're Japanese, because it's the OTHER countries that are getting upset, for good reasons. Yes, this is diplomatically BAD for Japan, believe it or not and it would make people respect and like Japan less and less.

The Yasukuni shrine is a right-wing propaganda site... YOU need to get over the right-wing propagandist revisionism of your own WW2 history. It has NOTHING to do with "culture"!! So stop using that excuse already. It's RIGHT-WING PROPAGANDA!

Abe unlikely to visit Yasukuni shrine? GOOD!

Hopefully we can dial down the tension in the region.

bannedacctsam

Not going to change a bit. The Koreans and Chinese will just find another issue they can complain about.

Personally I don't understand the logic behind why the Koreans are complaining about Yasukuni. They were part of Japan during the war and many are enshrined there as well.

Personally I don't understand the logic behind why the Koreans are complaining about Yasukuni. They were part of Japan during the war and many are enshrined there as well..

I am reliably told that on the first couple of days after the Japanese surrender in August 1945 all over Seoul you could see little plumes of smoke as the torii and jinja buildings were burned.

Everyone in WW2 was wrong. The US commited a massive war crime by bombing Nagasaki a week after Hiroshima when "surrender" was on the table from Japan. Who cares if he visits? China? Probably give them an excuse to claim Japan...lol

IAbe has been traveling and busy disregarding his health. I He probably wants to relax in his home for change. O-bon at home.

Kazuaki, you are right, nobody will accuse military forces engaged in invasion of any country as a war crime in and of itself. However, it is generally agreed that the invading forces of Japan commited war crimes after they invaded China.

While I have no intention of contesting the notion the Japanese did commit war crimes in China, it does not negate the fact that those soldiers were also defending their country. If they deserve to be lambasted for the former, they deserve to be honored for the latter also.

It doesn't matter if you're Japanese, because it's the OTHER countries that are getting upset, for good reasons. Yes, this is diplomatically BAD for Japan, believe it or not and it would make people respect and like Japan less and less.

I'm not even sure it is diplomatically bad for Japan. Diplomacy is not about maintaining good relationships at all costs. In fact, Japan showing a ridiculously amount of weakness on this issue, which is ultimately an internal affair (to use a phrase much loved by China), allows them to be pushed on this and by extension other issues.

I'm not even sure it is diplomatically bad for Japan. Diplomacy is not about maintaining good relationships at all costs.

Wrong, that's pretty much the whole point of diplomacy, it's to maintain good relations with each other.

In fact, Japan showing a ridiculously amount of weakness on this issue, which is ultimately an internal affair (to use a phrase much loved by China), allows them to be pushed on this and by extension other issues.

LOL not being able the Yasukuni shrine is showing "weakness"? Sure... in the world of right-wingers. The fact is, the visiting of Yasukuni shrine is seen as provocative in most countries, especially China and SK.

Wrong, that's pretty much the whole point of diplomacy, it's to maintain good relations with each other.

No Thomas. You have a habit of not reading people's post to it's entirety. As KS said, "diplomacy" is not about maintaining good relationships "at all costs". He/she also makes a good point that the Japanese government in the past showed too much weakness on a ultimately an "internal affair" (honoring their own war dead) which up until 1985 was strictly that for China in regards to Yasukuni and 2006 for SK. And their criteria has also evolved as well for it was only against the PM that was visiting in the recent past but now it's the lawmakers.

I still do not understand why this becomes a big deal.

This is a big deal because the central belief of the Yasukuni Shrine i.e. the privatized State Shinto is Fascism. And it is only logical to believe that the believers of the Yasukuni Shrine who believe that the soldiers had been promoted to gods by the Shrine must also be believers of Fascism.

So the question is why can't Japan give up Fascism like what other countries such as Germany did?

This is not simply a domestic matter.

Uhhh ... yes it is. The communists and the Koreans should mind their own business.

So the question is why can't Japan give up Fascism like what other countries such as Germany did?

Are the commies going to stop celebrating Mao like he was anything other than one of the biggest butchers in world history? I always laugh hard when I see news footage of brainwashed commies carrying high the portrait of that fat criminal whilst shouting slogans that the rest of the world gave up on about a hundred years ago. Clean up your own mess first guru before you start worrying about what others are doing.

Kazuaki Shimazak iJul. 26, 2013 - 09:31AM JST Certainly, a great many of the soldiers participated in the invasion of China. But it is generally agreed participating in an invasion NOT a war crime make (otherwise, countless American soldiers will be guilty for participating, far more voluntarily than the Japanese were, in the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan).

After the war, the Germans and Japanese had a different reaction to their bad behavior during the war. Most of the Germans were remorseful and guilt ridden. The Japanese immediately tried to rewrite history, and are still at it. Within days of Japan's surrender in 1945, coded messages went out from Tokyo to Japanese diplomats around the world, ordering them to start a campaign portraying Japan as a victim in the war, and to play down Japanese atrocities and play up Japanese civilian losses in the recent atomic bomb attacks. What was not so secret were Japanese efforts to ignore the war and portray themselves as victims. Many Japanese opposed rewriting history, which was often quite blatant. This meddling with historical facts regularly caused problems with neighbors, especially China. But the Japanese were insistent on evading responsibility. They still are, and many Japanese really believe it.

The real message of the war criminals being enshrined at Yasukuni is that no matter what you do, no matter how much suffering you inflict, if you have Japanese blood in your veins you are ok. On the other hand if you are foreigner, no matter how much they have suffered it is not important, you are not Japanese. Considering the suffering inflicted on neighboring Asian countries by Japan is it so hard to call them the 'invasions' that they are rather than 'advances'? If Hiroshima and Nagasaki are crimes then surely Japan's wartime actions are also crimes, why is it so easy for Japanese people to acknowledge A-bomb victims and so hard to acknowledge Asian victims of Japan's wartime aggression? Simple, The A-bomb victims were Japanese and therefore important and the others were foreign and therefore less than human and unimportant. That is the underlying fact that is hard to move beyond that for Japan.

If Hiroshima and Nagasaki are crimes

They're not.

The very same Japanese that go to the memorial and plead for peace are the most critical to voice their opinions about the wrongdoing of Japan's past. What you and many other ex-pats do this quite often because of your complete lack of understanding of the political spectrum of the Japanese population. In essence, what you are essentially doing is to describe the right wing element of certain Japanese population and the left wing element of the population. Of course, since their views are complete opposite, you get the notion that there is somekind of double standard of hypocricy going on.

When former PM Noda was a Finance Minister in 2005, the opposition asked about it and he stated "People who have been named class A war criminals are not war criminals at all, this is why the logic to not visit over the grounds that they are war criminals is already ignored". This is the view from former head of Japan who was elected as their PM. I guess Japan is no Germany, if you still don't believe it.

When former PM Noda was a Finance Minister in 2005, the opposition asked about it and he stated "People who have been named class A war criminals are not war criminals at all, this is why the logic to not visit over the grounds that they are war criminals is already ignored". This is the view from former head of Japan who was elected as their PM. I guess Japan is no Germany, if you still don't believe it.

Class A, as defined in the London Charters, is "crime against peace" which many legal scholars disputed the validty for being an "ex post facto legislation". If this principle was applied to any members of states, the United States Presidents from then until now are "war criminals" by definition. And no. The form PM Noda was not a Finance Minister in 2005.

nigel

You have a habit of not reading people's post to it's entirety. As KS said, "diplomacy" is not about maintaining good relationships "at all costs".

That's what I meant nigelboy, it IS about maintaining good relationships "at all costs". What else could it be for? If you can't maintain good relations then that would be considered a diplomatic failure. Now please stop butting in.

He/she also makes a good point that the Japanese government in the past showed too much weakness on a ultimately an "internal affair" (honoring their own war dead) which up until 1985 was strictly that for China in regards to Yasukuni and 2006 for SK.

Again, "too much weakness"? What weakness? The ability to not visit the Yasukuni? Please stop this nonsense, only the Japanese right-wingers think that way. And "internal affair"? LOL! When they visit the shrine as politicians, PMs, etc, then they are essentially making a political statement, and that is one of historical revisionism. It's not as if whatever the Japanese politicians do in Japan somehow exist in a vacuum and everybody else is barred from making a judgement. Japanese politicians can't just say whatever nonsense that they want in Japan and then when they are caught and criticized, say that "it was intended for 'domestic audiences'". That's called being two-faced and making a excuse.

That's what I meant nigelboy, it IS about maintaining good relationships "at all costs". What else could it be for? If you can't maintain good relations then that would be considered a diplomatic failure. Now please stop butting in.

Okay. How about China and Korea not butting in on how Japan honors her war dead? Korea managed to do it for over 60 years and China for 45 years.

The concept that a war dead is a hero to their respective country while at the sane time maybe considered villains on another side is universal but only these two make it a diplomatic issue.

Again, "too much weakness"? What weakness? The ability to not visit the Yasukuni? Please stop this nonsense, only the Japanese right-wingers think that way. And "internal affair"? LOL! When they visit the shrine as politicians, PMs, etc, then they are essentially making a political statement, and that is one of historical revisionism. It's not as if whatever the Japanese politicians do in Japan somehow exist in a vacuum and everybody else is barred from making a judgement. Japanese politicians can't just say whatever nonsense that they want in Japan and then when they are caught and criticized, say that "it was intended for 'domestic audiences'". That's called being two-faced and making a excuse.

Honoring their own country's war dead is an internal affair. If a lawmaker is going there is strictly for domestic purposes. If he/she is going as a political statement, it's strictly for domestic audience. It's been like that even after the enshrinnent of Class A where there were 21 more visits by PM before China made this diplomatic issue. The best course of action would have been to continue going and let China choose another issue to make it a diplomatic issue but Japan gave in. It use to be that they were just against PM going, which changed to cabinet ministers, and now lawmakers.

If he/she is going as a political statement, it's strictly for domestic audience.

LOL what? So you can just say one thing to your "domestic audience" and say another to "international audience"? Again, that's called being two-faced. That's the problem with Japan, they separate "domestic" and "international" as two separate things, when they are both the same.

nigelboy, how the world view Japan is important, and Japan has nothing to gain by visiting the Yasukuni shrine. And yes, the world does view Japan negatively for its politicians continuing to visit the shrine. I'd say Japan should cut the crap already, grow up and stop provoking China.

It’s true that East Asia is still divided by the memory of war that had torn it apart. When Japanese politicians pay tribute to the Yasukuni shrine, they are also paying tribute, whether they intend to or not, to an imperial order in which Japan violently controlled its neighbors. That era is over and Japan’s economy is shrinking and its population declining as both China and South Korea rise in power and stature. But as long as Japan’s leaders continue living in the past, they will struggle to prepare their country for its future.

LOL what? So you can just say one thing to your "domestic audience" and say another to "international audience"? Again, that's called being two-faced. That's the problem with Japan, they separate "domestic" and "international" as two separate things, when they are both the same.

Since there lawmakers are voted in by their own citizens, it's domestic.

nigelboy, how the world view Japan is important, and Japan has nothing to gain by visiting the Yasukuni shrine. And yes, the world does view Japan negatively for its politicians continuing to visit the shrine. I'd say Japan should cut the crap already, grow up and stop provoking China.

Japan has nothing to gain from China and Korea with these visits. On the flip side, there is nothing to gain for not visiting domestically. The lawmakers which includes the minister and PM will decide this on their own based on how the population feels. Thanks to the continuos whining from the two, the general attitude among the population has changed. We'll see how many lawmakers visits this time around for it is a representative how they feel about their two neighbors.

Since there lawmakers are voted in by their own citizens, it's domestic.

There's no such thing! lol... You apparently can't understand that the other countries can view Japan negatively for whatever it decides to do. Japan does not have an "immunity" for all the stupid things that it does that baffles the rest of the world.

Japan has nothing to gain from China and Korea with these visits. On the flip side, there is nothing to gain for not visiting domestically.

Okay, so you're saying that they should make a small minority of domestic right-wingers happy at the expense of potential important strategic allies, particularly China. Well I'd have to say GOOD LUCK to all you right-wingers and don't ruin the country.

What has Japan got to gain by making China more angry? Nothing. It's Japan's loss, not China's. China can afford to lose Japan, Japan can't.

The lawmakers which includes the minister and PM will decide this on their own based on how the population feels. Thanks to the continuos whining from the two, the general attitude among the population has changed.

Almost NOBODY in Japan cares about the Yasukuni shrine except for a few right-wingers. Whatever Abe is doing is for his small group of right-wing buddies.

There's no such thing! lol... You apparently can't understand that the other countries can view Japan negatively for whatever it decides to do. Japan does not have an "immunity" for all the stupid things that it does that baffles the rest of the world.

So let them view negatively. You questioned the "intent" of these lawmakers visits so I simply answered the obvious.

Okay, so you're saying that they should make a small minority of domestic right-wingers happy at the expense of potential important strategic allies, particularly China. Well I'd have to say GOOD LUCK to all you right-wingers and don't ruin the country.

No. Just those around the middle who got fed up with China and Korea. They were probably very sympathetic to them beforehand but a lot things happened to change their view.

What has Japan got to gain by making China more angry? Nothing. It's Japan's loss, not China's. China can afford to lose Japan, Japan can't.

China's been very angry for a year now? No loss, really.

nigelboy Jul. 27, 2013 - 08:02AM JST China's been very angry for a year now? No loss, really.

But really, why should anyone feel ashamed? It is only by denying the events that took place that Japan would have much to be ashamed of. Especially amidst the reality that Japan is no longer the power player of the region. There really is no way around it, Japan must play nice with China if it wants to keep 21 percent of the GDP, which is what S. Korea is doing. Japan leaders continues to make same mistakes by knifing into the scar of yesteryear with disallusional visits to the Yasukuni.

nigelboy

China's been very angry for a year now? No loss, really.

lol, you really need to start looking at reality of things... Do you know how much China is worth (to Japan)? How much is Japan going to lose when they stop selling to China? A crap ton. And does not Japan import things from China? China is going to be an important ally to Japan in the future, but if Japan alienates China, then Japan will lose far more than China. That's just how it works.

So let them view negatively.

I'd say grow up and stop acting like it doesn't matter.

They were probably very sympathetic to them beforehand but a lot things happened to change their view.

Nobody in Japan really gives a crap about the Yasukuni shrine, except for right-wingers.

lol, you really need to start looking at reality of things... Do you know how much China is worth (to Japan)? How much is Japan going to lose when they stop selling to China? A crap ton. And does not Japan import things from China? China is going to be an important ally to Japan in the future, but if Japan alienates China, then Japan will lose far more than China. That's just how it works.

Yes. They tried to do that with rare earths. The price collapsed in China and Japanese firms established other sources as well as companies like Toshiba utilized alternate raw materials. Businesses adapt very quickly. Secondly, Japan is not trade dependent as evidenced by the % of GDP. You overestimate the so called strength of China.

I'd say both China and Korea needs to grow up and wonder why they are not well received by other Asian nations.