Abe pledges to advance peace treaty talks with Russia

WobotFeb. 9  11:16 pm JST

This whole matter is a farce because Japan took Hokkaido and the Kurils from the Ainu so it's not like Tokyo is the rightful owner anyway

The flaws in this argument is that not only did the Ainu never established any nation, but they themselves consider themselves Japanese in nationality. A point which the J-govt neither can nor will dispute. Furthernmore there are Ainu on Sakhalin which is Russian. Japan became the rightful owner of the four islands by treaty with Russia in 1855, and Japan represents the Ainu as a nationality.

Marin ZvabFeb. 9  10:46 pm JST

Hi Ossan. Do not forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If you ignore this topics, all other parts of history in last 150 years should be ignored, too.There is simple and mature comment of Mr./Mrs Meiyouwenti, Hello Kitty 321.Think about please.

Marin Zvab,

Please read my posts before commenting. I already wrote:

OssanAmericaFeb. 8  09:26 pm JST

The only way Japan could get all 4 islands back is if US forces were reduced, if not removed from Japan. And that's not going to happen.

Kazuaki ShimazakiFeb. 8  09:30 pm JST

OssanAmericaToday 02:15 pm JST

That's a pathetic dodge that ignores the clear plaintext meaning of the document. Either they have renounced ownership or they haven't. It's popularity means that there are a lot of countries that want to shaft Russia more than any real legal basis, or it is a cheap way to keep Japan from having a reconciliation with the Russians.

I agree that the USSR did not sign the treaty and it is not a legal basis for the USSR to administer the islands. But they cannot say it is Japanese territory because as you point out, they have already renounced it in front of 49 signatories, which include those countries now beefing about it. And they cannot say it is their territory because it was not ceded to them. 

Quite frankly, the whole thing is an example of Western illegalism and hypocrisy - it's not even sophistry because that would require them to have a valid technical point. All the Americans really had to do is execute the bribe they promised the Russians at Yalta and it'll all be over with.

As for the whole Greed crap, that was Cairo. By Potsdam it has become a matter of free discretion - possibly because they had already promised the Kurile Islands to the Soviet Union (note the difference between Article 2 (return) and Article 3 (handed over):

Whatever secret agreement or documented agreement took place at Yalta conference, got nothing to do with Japan.

What's got anything to do with Japan is Cairo declaration(only because this is being referred to by Potsdam which Japan accepted), Potsdam declaration, SanFran Treaty. Anyone could see the history of those 4 islands and that had got nothing do with "Japanese violence and greed" whereas USSR aggression was nothing but "violence an greed " ignoring on-going expiry of the pact and against the principle of non-territorial expansion.

WobotToday  11:16 pm JST

This whole matter is a farce because Japan took Hokkaido and the Kurils from the Ainu so it's not like Tokyo is the rightful owner anyway

I see you are suggesting all those white supremacists return to where they originally came from,　vacate 1/3 of

all continents on earth to be returned to native 1st people. Right? Not too bad idea.

Hi Ossan. Do not forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If you ignore this topics, all other parts of history in last 150 years should be ignored, too.

There is simple and mature comment of Mr./Mrs Meiyouwenti, Hello Kitty 321.Think about please.

Japan can keep pledging, urging and bleating but the Russians won’t give nothing. backk that was paid for in Russian blood..,,

The Cairo Declaration 1943:

""The Three Great Allies are fighting this war to restrain and punish the aggression of Japan. They covet no gain for themselves and have no thought of territorial expansion. It is their purpose that Japan shall be stripped of all the islands in the Pacific which she has seized or occupied since the beginning of the first World War in 1914, and that all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and The Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China. Japan will also be expelled from all other territories which she has taken by violence and greed. "

The Treaty of Shimoda 1855

"The Treaty of Shimoda (下田条約, Shimoda Jouyaku) (formally Treaty of Commerce and Navigation between Japan and Russia 日露和親条約, Nichi-Ro Washin Jouyaku) of February 7, 1855, was the first treaty between the Russian Empire, and the Empire of Japan, then under the administration of the Tokugawa shogunate."

"One of the most important features of the 1855 Treaty of Shimoda was the agreement that the Kurile Islands were to be divided between Russia and Japan at a line running in between Etorofu and Urup, and the treaty is still frequently cited to this date by the Japanese government was one of its justifications in the current Kurile Islands dispute"

The United States:

"“The United States recognizes Japanese sovereignty over these islands,” Marie Harf, a State Department spokeswoman, told reporters, reiterating the U.S. position on the territorial dispute between Tokyo and Moscow."

ossan:

What's really funny is that people who would not side with Russia over their meddling in US elections, or Russia's role in the Ukraine, or Russia supporting Maduro

Maybe it's because some people try to look at both the good and bad points of each country. Frankly, I think half of America is dumb, arrogant and war-loving, but I'm not going to hold this against the other half who can see what damage the man-child is doing from the White House.

OssanAmericaToday 02:15 pm JST

That's a pathetic dodge that ignores the clear plaintext meaning of the document. Either they have renounced ownership or they haven't. It's popularity means that there are a lot of countries that want to shaft Russia more than any real legal basis, or it is a cheap way to keep Japan from having a reconciliation with the Russians.

I agree that the USSR did not sign the treaty and it is not a legal basis for the USSR to administer the islands. But they cannot say it is Japanese territory because as you point out, they have already renounced it in front of 49 signatories, which include those countries now beefing about it. And they cannot say it is their territory because it was not ceded to them. 

Quite frankly, the whole thing is an example of Western illegalism and hypocrisy - it's not even sophistry because that would require them to have a valid technical point. All the Americans really had to do is execute the bribe they promised the Russians at Yalta and it'll all be over with.

As for the whole Greed crap, that was Cairo. By Potsdam it has become a matter of free discretion - possibly because they had already promised the Kurile Islands to the Soviet Union (note the difference between Article 2 (return) and Article 3 (handed over):

AGREEMENT REGARDING JAPAN

The leaders of the three great powers - the Soviet Union, the United States of America and Great Britain - have agreed that in two or three months after Germany has surrendered and the war in Europe is terminated, the Soviet Union shall enter into war against Japan on the side of the Allies on condition that:

The status quo in Outer Mongolia (the Mongolian People's Republic) shall be preserved.

The former rights of Russia violated by the treacherous attack of Japan in 1904 shall be restored, viz.:

(a) The southern part of Sakhalin as well as the islands adjacent to it shall be returned to the Soviet Union;

(b) The commercial port of Dairen shall be internationalized, the pre-eminent interests of the Soviet Union in this port being safeguarded, and the lease of Port Arthur as a naval base of the U.S.S.R. restored;

(c) The Chinese-Eastern Railroad and the South Manchurian Railroad, which provide an outlet to Dairen, shall be jointly operated by the establishment of a joint Soviet-Chinese company, it being understood that the pre-eminent interests of the Soviet Union shall be safeguarded and that China shall retain sovereignty in Manchuria;

The Kurile Islands shall be handed over to the Soviet Union.

It is understood that the agreement concerning Outer Mongolia and the ports and railroads referred to above will require concurrence of Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek. The President will take measures in order to maintain this concurrence on advice from Marshal Stalin.

The heads of the three great powers have agreed that these claims of the Soviet Union shall be unquestionably fulfilled after Japan has been defeated.

For its part, the Soviet Union expresses it readiness to conclude with the National Government of China a pact of friendship and alliance between the U.S.S.R. and China in order to render assistance to China with its armed forces for the purpose of liberating China from the Japanese yoke.

Joseph Stalin

Franklin D. Roosevelt

Winston S. Churchill

What's really funny is that people who would not side with Russia over their meddling in US elections, or Russia's role in the Ukraine, or Russia supporting Maduro.....all of a sudden support Russia over Japan when it comes to these islands that the U.S. and U.K. say are Japanese territory illegally occupied by Russia.

Russia holding on to these four tiny islands is nothing more than a middle finger aimed at the United States. They could militarize them all they want but with the sheer size of the US military presence in Japan, in a real confluct they would last all of 10-15 minutes. But being so insignficant, it's not worth the US getting involved beyond officially recognizing them as Japanese territory. And of course Russia has no history of ever giving back anything they've taken.

But it serves as a political tool for any Japanese administration, and Russia also sees it as something to use as a basis for negotiations with Japan over just about anything. The only way Japan could get all 4 islands back is if US forces were reduced, if nt removed from Japan. And that's not going to happen.

Legally there is no basis for the Russian occupation of these islands; in reality there is no way that Putin will give them up and no one is going to use force to make him as he is well aware. So this from Abe is entirely for domestic consumption, and is effectively meaningless.

Here we go again. Japan renounced ownership of the "Kuriles" to the 49 signatories of the 1951 San Francisco Treaty. The USSR/Russia was not a signatory to this Treaty and it did not authorize the USSR to occupy and administer these islands. For this reason, the actual signatories to whom Japan renounced ownership consider them to be Japanese territory under Russian adminstration/occupation. 

Comedic gold.

ossan:

"The United States recognizes Russian-held islands off Japan’s northernmost main island as belonging to Japan, a U.S. official said Wednesday, speaking in connection with Russian military drills conducted in the disputed territory earlier this week.

Lip service. Do you honestly think Trump is going to side with Japan and go against Putin when the going gets tough? Putin has grabbed Trump by his Fabergé eggs.

marcelitoToday  02:43 pm JST

Ossan...do you really think regurgitating this stuff would make the slightest bit of difference to Putin ....really? Japan has enough far more pressing problems to take care of than this ...

Of course not, unless you believe Putin reads these JT posts..lol.. Facts need to be "regurgitated" as long as false information is "regurgitated" to mislead people. Every country has other issues to be concerned about other than terrotorial disputes or diplomatic issues, but they are not ignored for that reason.

Here we go again. Japan renounced ownership of the "Kuriles" to the 49 signatories of the 1951 San Francisco Treaty. The USSR/Russia was not a signatory to this Treaty and it did not authorize the USSR to occupy and administer these islands. For this reason, the actual signatories to whom Japan renounced ownership consider them to be Japanese territory under Russian adminstration/occupation. This includes the United States and the United Kingdom. The USSR stole these islands after Japan declared surrender in WWII, just as they stole territory in Eastern Europe. Further complicating the issue is that the four Southern Kurile islands were exempt from the WWII Allied declaration to strip Japan of territories taken by greed or war, because they were negotiated with Russia back in 1855. The USSR never had a legal basis to hold onto them, simply a strategic desire to not let the US take away the whole show, and only after the USSR collapsed and became Russia did they "legalize" it under their own laws.

"The United States recognizes Russian-held islands off Japan’s northernmost main island as belonging to Japan, a U.S. official said Wednesday, speaking in connection with Russian military drills conducted in the disputed territory earlier this week.

“The United States recognizes Japanese sovereignty over these islands,” Marie Harf, a State Department spokeswoman, told reporters, reiterating the U.S. position on the territorial dispute between Tokyo and Moscow."

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/08/14/national/u-s-recognizes-japans-sovereignty-over-russian-held-isles-official/#.Xj5Du2gza00

Abe's pledge is protected by freedom of speech.

It is better to be under Russian administration.

If the Kuril islands returned underJapan administration they will be bought by the RPC.

As long as the American military is in Japan Russia will never return the islands — they don't want US bases there.

More pledges and hot air. That's what his terms as PM have been full of. Making pledges is the easiest thing anyone can do. Just ask his master across the Pacific.

Abe et al is not in charge

rgcivilian1Today  11:51 am JST

Please remember that the Japanese have already renounced the claim. Really, even the Japanese government does not try to play with the word renounce. The more common ploy is the almost as disgusting one of denying that "Kuriles" including those 4 islands. Pathetic.

Just give it up, Japan.

the Russian occupation of the islands, this should have been resolved a very long time ago, even if it involved the US to attack the islands and kick out the Russians back then. These were not islands that belonged to anyone outside Japan.

Interesting that this article refers to the islands as being 'in northern Japan' instead of a more subtle comment like, "off the coast of Hokkaido."

This is grandstanding and nothing more.

I don't think it's a good look for someone doing diplomacy to stand in front of that flag.

Just be thankful that Japan did not get split into North and South Japan, like what happened to Korea. Moscow asked the Americans for half of Japan, but were turned down.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/08/05/stalin_japan_hiroshima_occupation_hokkaido/

"he territorial disputes with Russia will never be resolved until Japan becomes a truly independent country not depending on the US for its own defense." Japan is indipendent and US are allies that protect territorial sovereignty from PRC claims.

A Japanese Prime Minister attending a ceremony marking Russia’s victory over Germany in WW2? At the end of that war, after Japan accepted the Potsdam Declaration and surrendered to the Allied Nations, the Soviet Union invaded and took the northern islands. Abe is a lie-machine perpetually blurting out empty pledges. The territorial disputes with Russia will never be resolved until Japan becomes a truly independent country not depending on the US for its own defense.

So just keep pilling unfulfilled promise still better, right?

Sure, just give up instead... why not.

Shouldn't that big sign in the background say 「アイヌ モシㇼ、エホシッパレ」?

Or is Abe not interested in that little detail?

Abe pledges to advance peace treaty talks with Russia

Again, another pledge .

EXACTLY. Abe's pledges should not be front page news but confined to the humour section of a newspaper or news site.

It Putin and Abe were to join LINE or similar they could both work it out in a week or two!

75 years and still not sorted. That's about as long as from the end of the American Civil War to WW2.

Better than ignoring the problem

So just keep pilling unfulfilled promise still better, right?

Again, another pledge .

Better than ignoring the problem.

Abe pledges to advance peace treaty talks with Russia

Again, another pledge .