politics

Anti-U.S. base candidate loses Ginowan mayoral election

48 Comments

The requested article has expired, and is no longer available. Any related articles, and user comments are shown below.

© 2016 AFP

©2019 GPlusMedia Inc.

48 Comments
Login to comment

YAY! That means we can now have a Disneyland there, right?!?! Right?!?!

0 ( +5 / -5 )

He won by nearly 7,000 votes, 27,668 to 21,811, proof again that Onaga is not what "everyone" wants!

Now if Onaga truly listens to the people who actually host the base in their city he will accept their wishes and remove his opposition to the move to Henoko, but he won't, he'll make excuses about how the prefecture's needs supersede the city of Ginowan.

He'll be talking like Abe soon.

2 ( +8 / -6 )

It wasn't a vote based on money or Disney, it was a re-election based on Atsushi having a very good first term. He has done a lot for improving Ginowan City's appearance and economy.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

It wasn't a vote based on money or Disney,

Quite so, but too many people only know what they read in the press and are unaware of the reality of the situation here, very similar to how Onaga won the prefectural vote. Onaga was a good mayor for Naha, and that carried over to the prefectural election.

The people of Ginowan have been waiting 2 decades for Futenma to be moved, they have been patient as the national government and Onaga fight each other. The time has come for this to end!

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

If Gov. Onaga has to listen to the people of Ginowan who voted to have the base moved then he also has to listen to the people of Nago who voted not to have the base moved to Henoko. He also has to listen to the people of Okinawa who elected him Governor to stop the relocation of MCAS Futenma to Henoko .According to the Ryukyu Shinpo, Sakima got 27,668 votes to Shimuras 21,811 a difference of 5,857 votes. So 21,811 people in Ginowan itself voted not to put the base in Henoko and there is a portion of people who voted for Sakima who dont want to see MCAS Futenma moved to Henoko, they just want it closed. The only thing this election proved is that the people of Ginowan want MCAS Futenma closed as does everyone else, it does not prove that the people of Okinawa or even Ginowan itself want to see a relocation inside Okinawa. The Japanese Govt. and U.S. Military bear the blame for the stalemate over MCAS Futenma for trying to force a relocation plan on a people who don`t want it.

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

@ japan4life

Futenma is a primary issue, but it's not the only one. Don't fall for the media hype and assume the election was SOLELY about Futenma. As with all elections, there are many issues on the table for voters to consider.

Personally, I think voters like Sakima's practically and sensibility. He knows his role and understands his limitations and he isn't spouting off nonsensical positions he knows he can't deliver. As mayor, Sakima or anyone else has virtually no influence where Futenama where be located.

Perhaps voters are turned on by his logic and common sense on the issues. That, and the fact Ginowan has become a much more vibrant and attractive city under his watch. Voters want to continue cleaning up and modernizing their city.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

CONGRATULATIONS!!! Best thing to happen to Okinawa.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

"Sakima told NHK as he declared victory that he wants the base moved as soon as possible.

Asked where it should be relocated, he said only: “I’m not in a position to comment as it’s supposed be decided by the Japanese and U.S. governments.”

How come Shimura and Onaga can't understand this?

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Money talks

3 ( +5 / -2 )

RE: Many island residents want a replacement for Futenma built outside Okinawa—either elsewhere in Japan or overseas—saying they can no longer live with the noise, accidents and occasional crimes by US service members.

From what I know these so called island residents are not original people of Okinawa but rather mainland agitators and pro-China sympathizers, who need to be caught and arrested for treason against Japan. Instead they are busy being selfish for their own monetary gains at the expense of the entire country. I for one have many Ryukyu friends and not one among them has voiced otherwise of the US bases leaving. Onaga who is bought and paid for is slowly pushing the reality companies in Okinawa to sell land under the Ryukyu people to Chinese that helps no one but China. The Onaga's have yet to disclose who he made his money..

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Give Okinawa some breathing room. Move the base to the base of Mt Fuji- Camp Fuji. Expand that base.

Plus, Gotemba can use a boost to their economy.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

The central government-backed Sakima camp cunningly avoided making the Henoko relocation an election issue, stressing instead that a dangerous Futenma must be closed and must not be fixed at the present site forever. No one disputes that Futenma must remain at the current site forever. But if you suggest it can be relocated to Henoko, then Futenma's function will remain in Okinawa forever, thus making Okinawa a permanent U.S. military colony together with all other bases

Prime Minister Abe expressed his satisfaction with the election result, which means he is quite satisfied with an Okinawa to be occupied by a foreign military forever.. What a sovereign nation Japan is, Mr. Prime Minister!

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

voiceofokinawa: "The central government-backed Sakima camp cunningly avoided making the Henoko relocation an election issue,"

Of COURSE it was an issue, as was keeping the American presence (you need to look up the meaning of 'occupation', my friend) in general! This was a statement on Onaga's policies and actions thus far, and obviously people like him and yourself do NOT represent even a majority of Okinawans, but only a few.

So, no more "Okinawans want this or that" comments by certain posters, as clearly they have been wrong about what the majority want.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

This was neither a vote on Onaga nor on the Henoko issue. And surely it was not a vote that says anything about what the majority of Okinawans want.

While especially Tokyo behind the scenes tried to cook it up it was a mayoral election and obviously a number of issues played into the result.

Tokyo knew it couldn't make a pro-Henoko relocation vote out of a Ginowan mayor election, but its main strategy was to divide Okinawans by money to better rule them. The usual anti-democratic and discriminating stance Tokyo takes towards Okinawa.

Taking into account how much time and money Abe and Soka Gakkai invested openly and behind the scenes in this election, and also considering that Sakima had the incumbents advantage, the results are moderate.

While the Futenma issue surely played a central role first analysis don't paint a clear picture as to exactly how.

It seems clear that Ginowan citizens are longing for a fast return of the Futenma base, but it is less clear whether they meant to endorse the Henoko relocation scheme with electing Sakima as he completely rejected to openly campaign on such an agenda.

While the voters for Shimura more or less equaled the votes for Iha at the last election in 2012 the votes for Sakima rose by 5000.

I would think this could be roughly the number that was mobilized by the ruthless LDP money and economic support promises and possibly also to some extent by a cut lose Soka Gakkai campaign.

Some voters surely thought they could get a carrot so now we can expect the inevitable stick to follow up.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Bam_boo: if the anti-base candidate had won you'd be gloating about how it supports Onaga and is the will of the people. Now you literally have the will of the people saying no to Onaga and suddenly you're saying it's not about that. Typical.

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

No reason for the Pro-Henoko people to gloat either because as long as there is an Anti-Henoko Mayor of Nago and an Anti-Henoko Governor of Okinawa continuing to do the will of the people who elected them, the fight will continue.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

This was neither a vote on Onaga nor on the Henoko issue. And surely it was not a vote that says anything about what the majority of Okinawans want.

Dont read the local press or watch the news if you think this. All the major, reputable, press in Japan have made a point of it to show that it was a vote about both Henoko and about Onaga as well.

However, Sakima's win was also about his running of the city and people wanted he to continue. He's been doing a great job

Tokyo knew it couldn't make a pro-Henoko relocation vote out of a Ginowan mayor election, but its main strategy was to divide Okinawans by money to better rule them. The usual anti-democratic and discriminating stance Tokyo takes towards Okinawa.

You have to have your head buried in the sand if you think this too. Tokyo pulled out some pretty big guns in the LDP chain of command to come down here and support Sakima, and Onaga and the opposition did the same for his opponent.

Like it or not, the election was ALL about Henoko, but that is only a small part of why Sakima won, while Onaga and his camp raised the issue constantly Sakima won because he is doing a good job and is not a one issue candidate.

I would think this could be roughly the number that was mobilized by the ruthless LDP money and economic support promises and possibly also to some extent by a cut lose Soka Gakkai campaign.

Justify it in your mind as you choose, but this is incorrect, and again shows your lack of knowledge about Okinawa, other than what you can find on google.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

title: "Anti-U.S. base candidate loses Ginowan mayoral election"

YET the candidate who won will ease-out the US base relocation project. LOL so if the winning candidate supports US base than why futenma is moving out? pathetic title. I think Sakima won because he did lots of thing for Ginowan city specially for children.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I don't think this was a pro-base vote, it was just to close one base. This is something that should have been done decades ago. Im getting sick of the US Militaries attitude towards the Okinawan people, this is absolutely a disgrace to American values.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Yubaru: "while Onaga and his camp raised the issue constantly Sakima won because he is doing a good job and is not a one issue candidate."

Exactly!! That's why it's pretty amusing to hear bam_boo and others obviously upset about this suddenly claim it was NOT about those things when their side was campaigning solely on that agenda. If they had won, do you think they'd be saying it's not about that?

2 ( +4 / -2 )

JTWNSSN, Although it is not a pro-base vote, it clearly puts a damper on the idea that the majority wants the Americans off of the island. Seems to be that they're okay with the Americans being consolidated to a less crowded part of the island.

I'd like to see some examples of this "attitude" because I've seen nothing but a positive relationship between the two (excluding the minority Sayoku/Heiwa people). Community events throughout Okinawa seem to draw crowds of military people where they seamlessly mingle and vice versa with thousands of Okinawans to events on the bases. I used to see a mix of Ginowan Residents and Americans cleaning the fence around Futenma when protestors used to tape messages on it. I've participated in language exchange programs that had military guys volunteering and they were treated pretty amazingly for having such a terrible "attitude" towards Okinawans.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

The vote surely means a setback for Onaga, but most of my Ginowan friends, who all openly supported Shimura, feel it could mean a setback for Ginowan.

They are afraid that Sakima's submission to Tokyos carrot and stick policies will on the long run create another "failed" Okinawan city that is hooked on big budgets from Tokyo and filthy backdoor arrangements while scraping sustainable, long-term and citizens centered policies.

If Tokyo gets directly involved in local Okinawan matters it's always about dividing as well as corrupting people and usually completely messes up everything for years to come, as we can see in Henoko and in Nago in the late 90s.

So we will have to see how Sakima's long term strategies turn out and hope that the Tokyo clientele politics he has displayed in the election campaign were just a stopgap.

@ smithinjapan

Bam_boo: if the anti-base candidate had won you'd be gloating about how it supports Onaga and is the will of the people.

It seems as if you missed the fact that there was no pro-base candidate electable in Ginowan. There were two anti-Futenma-base candidates of wich one was also anti-Henoko-relocation while the other staunchly rejected to openly take a stance on Henoko. Get the facts straight.

Now you literally have the will of the people saying no to Onaga and suddenly you're saying it's not about that. Typical.

We are talking about the will of the people of Ginowan here to be accurate. And this was not a "no to Onaga" vote. It was a vote for the mayor of Ginowan.

Btw, I wonder who is the one "gloating" here?

@ Yubaru

Tokyo knew it couldn't make a pro-Henoko relocation vote out of a Ginowan mayor election, but its main strategy was to divide Okinawans by money to better rule them. The usual anti-democratic and discriminating stance Tokyo takes towards Okinawa.

You have to have your head buried in the sand if you think this too. Tokyo pulled out some pretty big guns in the LDP chain of command to come down here and support Sakima, and Onaga and the opposition did the same for his opponent.

No, Tokyo didn't try to make this a direct vote for the Henoko relocation, it was part of the media that did so. Tokyo even advised Sakima not to take an openly pro-Henoko stance because Abe's strategists figured that would damage Sakimas popularity. Apparently Tokyo also recalled the trauma it experienced in the Nago mayors election some years ago.

You are the one badly informed here.

Apart from that your arguments are contradicting each other. First you say that "Tokyo pulled out some pretty big guns" and then you deny that the big guns had any effect.

Why wouldn't those "big guns" have an effect in a contentious election like the one in Ginowan?

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

No, Tokyo didn't try to make this a direct vote for the Henoko relocation, it was part of the media that did so. Tokyo even advised Sakima not to take an openly pro-Henoko stance because Abe's strategists figured that would damage Sakimas popularity. Apparently Tokyo also recalled the trauma it experienced in the Nago mayors election some years ago.

Tokyo didnt, but Onaga and everyone else did and they lost. It's black and white.

Problem reading? I wrote some "pretty big guns" and they did, but they stayed away from making promises for anything. You can keep your head in the sand if you want, but this was a major vote against keeping Futenma where it is, and it also showed Sakima to be the better politician by acknowledging the base issue is between the national government and the US government.

Onaga is trying to do to Ginowan what he complains (you too) that Tokyo is doing to Okinawa.

Onaga had a window of opportunity to put out a prefectural wide referendum on the issue when he was riding the wave of support after his election over one year ago, but he wasted the time flying all over the world attempting to win sympathetic support for "his" issue. As I have stated before, Onaga KNOWS he could easily lose a prefectural vote and this Ginowan election, at the heart of the issue showed him that he does not have the support of everyone.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

A Mainichi Shimbun exit poll of voters in the Jan. 24 Ginowan mayoral election in Okinawa Prefecture found that 56 percent were opposed to the planned relocation of U.S. Marine Corps Air Station Futenma to the Henoko district of Nago, while 33 percent were in favor of the move. It appears that while the people of Ginowan want MCAS Futenma closed a majority of the people in Ginowan are against the relocation to Henoko as are a majority of the people of Okinawa.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

bam_boo JAN. 25, 2016 - 04:18PM JST If Tokyo gets directly involved in local Okinawan matters it's always about dividing as well as corrupting people and usually completely messes up everything for years to come, as we can see in Henoko and in Nago in the late 90s.

People in Okinawa do sometimes require sacrifices in their pursuit of security; however, shutting down debate by refusing to even meet with the representative of dissenting opinions is not the way a democracy should conduct itself. And this is how Tokyo government is treating them.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

People in Okinawa do sometimes require sacrifices in their pursuit of security; however, shutting down debate by refusing to even meet with the representative of dissenting opinions is not the way a democracy should conduct itself. And this is how Tokyo government is treating them.

Onaga bears a large part of the blame for the government not wanting to meet with him. How would you like it if some "underling" went over your head and took your internal problems to a third party just to air them out? Dont think you would want to talk with them either.

Onaga did just that by going to Washington, Hawaii, and the UN in Europe, he took an internal problem and went looking for support about an issue that none of those people can help with in any manner.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

bam_boo: " but most of my Ginowan friends, who all openly supported Shimura, feel it could mean a setback for Ginowan."

And? Obviously the majority disagree with your friends.

"We are talking about the will of the people of Ginowan here to be accurate"

Gee, that's funny, because whenever a few hundred people gather around Futenma you never say it's about a few hundred people, you say it's representative of how people across the prefecture feel.

Yubaru: "Onaga is trying to do to Ginowan what he complains (you too) that Tokyo is doing to Okinawa."

Spot on, as always. But it's always "different" when it comes to them committing hypocrisy.

"Onaga had a window of opportunity to put out a prefectural wide referendum on the issue when he was riding the wave of support after his election over one year ago, but he wasted the time flying all over the world attempting to win sympathetic support for "his" issue."

Yes, yes, and yes!

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Yubaru JAN. 25, 2016 - 04:48PM JST Onaga bears a large part of the blame for the government not wanting to meet with him.

No. The Abe government has made it clear that the voters won’t be allowed to decide. Proceeding as if democracy doesn’t matter risks politicizing the base issue even further in ways that could harm bilateral relations.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

They could create a new island just for the bases off-shore where there's no residents, only if they can afford it and come up with a good plan for smooth logistics.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Cevin7, in a nutshell that's what they're doing right now. Creating land in the sea that connects to a base called Camp Schwab.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

No. The Abe government has made it clear that the voters won’t be allowed to decide. Proceeding as if democracy doesn’t matter risks politicizing the base issue even further in ways that could harm bilateral relations.

You are talking about two very different things. Besides that this issue has been politicized for decades, you must be new to the issue to think it's just been since Onaga took office.

You are wrong on one thing, if the prefecture took a referendum and the people voted against it, Abe would be forced into changing tactics. Onaga is avoiding it like the plague, and I know why and so does Abe.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

@ smithinjapan

And? Obviously the majority disagree with your friends.

Yes, that's called democracy.

Gee, that's funny, because whenever a few hundred people gather around Futenma you never say it's about a few hundred people, you say it's representative of how people across the prefecture feel.

A few hundred people? I say that clearly more then 70% of the Okinawan people oppose the Henoko relocation and demand at least a clear reduction of the US military burden if not a complete withdrawal. And that is not my personal opinion, but common knowledge in Okinawa based on factual evidence from a plethora of different sources that I have linked here several times.

@ Yubaru

Problem reading? I wrote some "pretty big guns" and they did, but they stayed away from making promises for anything.

Apparently they did promise something, openly and even more behind closed doors:

"Prime Minister Shinzo Abe’s government has dangled prospects of a bigger budget for Okinawa, backing for a Disney resort and promises of aid for impoverished children in Japan’s second-poorest prefecture to boost the current mayor’s chances."

Sleazy Suga even went so far as to embarrass himself by saying he can't do anything as member of the government, but as a private person will talk to his friends at Disney's executive board to advance Ginowan's chances. Pathetic!

Onaga bears a large part of the blame for the government not wanting to meet with him

Onaga and the Okinawan people deserve absolutely no blame for the Henoko deadlock. It is solely a result of decades, if not centuries, of discriminating policies from the central government.

Tokyo has constantly ignored the voice of the Okinawan people, has cheated on them, intimidated and bullied them and that's the only reason why we are facing such a mess now.

Onaga is incredibly brave at facing the bullies in Tokyo to fulfill the mandate his people gave him.

How would you like it if some "underling" went over your head

Onaga is not an underling but an elected representative of the Okinawan people. If you are calling him an underling to humiliate him then you are humiliating the Okinawan people who voted fro him and who by large support his policies.

And apparently you don't know the Japanese constitution as there nowhere is a clause that says a prefectural governor is in any from an underling to the prime minister. The Local Autonomy chapter in the constitution is very clear here.

Onaga is avoiding it like the plague, and I know why and so does Abe.

No, Onaga is not avoiding a referendum like the plague, he is considering it, but he knows very well how this will heat up things to the point of no return, which could also mean a massive intervention from Tokyo, so he's very careful about the topic and apparently considers a possible last resort, if everything else fails.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

In other news when asked how he plans to celebrate the victory Sakima jumped up and down yelling, "I'm going to Disney Land." That's the rest of the story.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Sleazy Suga even went so far as to embarrass himself by saying he can't do anything as member of the government, but as a private person will talk to his friends at Disney's executive board to advance Ginowan's chances. Pathetic!

Onaga is not an underling but an elected representative of the Okinawan people. If you are calling him an underling to humiliate him then you are humiliating the Okinawan people who voted fro him and who by large support his policies.

In your first quote above you call Chief Cabinet Secretary Suga “sleazy” and “pathetic”…..

In your second quote you say criticizing Gov Onaga is by extension criticizing the Okinawa people who he represents.

Given that logic, Suga is an elected member of the LDP which form the elected government of Japan and represents all Japanese citizens – you have just called everyone in Japan sleazy and pathetic. We await your apology.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Given all of the hazardous materials that the Marines have stored and dumped on MCAS Futenma, if Disney does build there instead of Tomorrow Land and Fantasy Land they would have Agent Orange Land and PCB Land.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

@ lincolnman

In your first quote above you call Chief Cabinet Secretary Suga “sleazy” and “pathetic”…..

So how would you call someone who grins at you while telling you blatant lies?

I know no better adjective then sleazy.

Suga is an elected member of the LDP which form the elected government of Japan and represents all Japanese citizens

Suga is not representing "the Japanese people". He represents "Kanagawa 2nd district".

But more then anything else now he represents the central government and is therefor in a much more powerful position then Onaga.

From that position Suga looks down on the Okinawan people and doesn't care a rotten nut for their wellbeing, but he says he does.

I find this kind of arrogance of power behavior sickening and I take the liberty of calling it by the adjectives I believe describe it best.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Suga is not representing "the Japanese people". He represents "Kanagawa 2nd district"

I merely used your logic - if you say Gov Onaga represents the people of Okinawa in his role as Governor, then Chief Cabinet Secretary Suga represents all the people in Japan in his role as CSC (not as the Kanagawa 2nd Dist Diet member). In turn, if you say criticizing Gov Onaga is criticizing all those he represents, then your post above insults all those that CSC Suga represents. Your logic, not mine. Therefore, you should either state your logic above was in error, or you should apologize for insulting all those CSC Suga represents.

So how would you call someone who grins at you while telling you blatant lies?

I wouldn't call them anything, I'd point out the factual errors in whatever they are trying to communicate - I wouldn't attack them personally. Name calling and use of derogatory insults merely weakens any factual argument you are trying to make. Make your appeal using facts, not personal insults.

There is a lesson in that for you.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I merely used your logic - if you say Gov Onaga represents the people of Okinawa in his role as Governor, then Chief Cabinet Secretary Suga represents all the people in Japan in his role as CSC

While Onaga was directly elected by the Okinawan people and is without any doubt also their symbolic representative on the national political stage, Suga was not elected by the Japanese people to be their "Chief Cabinet Secretary".

He was appointed to that position by Abe and is far from being anything like a symbolic representative for the Japanese people, which is Abe, or to some extent Akihito.

So it is not clear what you are trying to say with your odd attempt to equate Suga with Onaga.

I wouldn't call them anything,

It's up to you what you call people and how you decide to make your points.

I'd point out the factual errors in whatever they are trying to communicate - I wouldn't attack them personally.

If it is about factual errors, yes, if it is about bad attitude, no. Suga's disrespectful and dishonest attitude towards the Okinawan people is a central point of my criticism and I decide to clarify that by using appropriate language.

There is a lesson in that for you.

I believe it would support your arguments if you stick to your arguments rather then trying to play a senior teacher role here.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Well, somehow I thought we wouldn’t be getting an apology………..

While Onaga was directly elected by the Okinawan people and is without any doubt also their symbolic representative on the national political stage, Suga was not elected by the Japanese people to be their "Chief Cabinet Secretary". He was appointed to that position by Abe and is far from being anything like a symbolic representative for the Japanese people, which is Abe, or to some extent Akihito. So it is not clear what you are trying to say with your odd attempt to equate Suga with Onaga.

I merely used your logic – argue with it all you want – you are merely arguing with yourself.

It's up to you what you call people and how you decide to make your points.

That’s very true – I choose to not engage in insults, slurs and innuendo, it’s clear from your posts that you do.

If it is about factual errors, yes, if it is about bad attitude, no. Suga's disrespectful and dishonest attitude towards the Okinawan people is a central point of my criticism and I decide to clarify that by using appropriate language.

Hogwash. Suga doesn’t have a disrespectful or dishonest attitude toward Okinawa. You may have the opinion that the policies he supports or political affiliations with which he is associated are not supportive of Okinawa residents. But he did nothing personally disrespectful. I’m afraid that’s your “Achilles Heel” – you elect to make it personal instead of factual, and therefore your comments and opinion have no merit. If that’s your desire, have at it. Just don’t expect anyone to take your comments seriously.

I believe it would support your arguments if you stick to your arguments rather then trying to play a senior teacher role here.

I’m not making any argument – I’m offering an opinion – that’s a fundamental issue that you fail to grasp, in post after post. And if you are saying I don’t have a right to offer that opinion, then you are worse that those you condemn.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Hogwash. Suga doesn’t have a disrespectful or dishonest attitude toward Okinawa.

He does have.

Here one of my recent posts on the topic:

"When sleazy Suga flew in three village heads from Henoko to Tokyo (a first in Japanese history that a cabinet secretary met with hamlet heads to talk about allocating budgets) in October 2015, and presented them to the press as if he had managed to pull some aborigines (I surely don't mean to offend aborigines here) over the barrel with a bag of glass beads, this was just the last and most absurd stunt in a long row of awkward carrot and stick measures from Tokyo."

It is just one of the many displays of bad attitude and disrespect towards the Okinawa people and the kind of farce the majority of Okinawans are truly sick of. Besides being a very bad example of ruthless power politics.

But there's a long list of further claims by Suga that most Okinawans feel to be disrespectful and dishonest.

So Suga talks about security for Ginowan citizens but the central government doesn't allow basic US military security standards (as put forward in the US AICUZ program) to be applied to Futenma, creating a potentially disastrous situation for Ginowan citizens on a daily basis. Tokyo is apparently using the lack of security at Futenma to pressure Okinawa to accept a discriminating move and reinforce the unequal status quo and the US presence in Okinawa for decades to come.

If Tokyo would really be interested in the wellbeing of Ginowan citizens they would take care that the standard security measures are implemented now.

And if Suga says the Henoko relocation plan was drafted with direct involvement of the Okinawan people and with their consent Okinawans can only be stunned by the degree of impertinence as they know well that he's talking about pressuring, bullying, intimidating, bribing and corrupting Okinawan people.

So no, not "Hogwash", but a daily and very real experience of disrespect and dishonesty for Okinawan citizens that you are turning a blind eye to.

I choose to not engage in insults, slurs and innuendo, it’s clear from your posts that you do.

I may not use "political correct" language, but other then you, I do not support a discriminating, unequal and anti-democratic status quo in Okinawa with my arguments.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

This is getting rather redundant......

Here one of my recent posts on the topic

In your series of posts above WRT CSC Suga, you engage in personal insults and character assassination, rather than a criticism of the various policy proposals that he holds or supports. Result - your ideas are unconvincing.

I may not use "political correct" language, but other then you, I do not support a discriminating, unequal and anti-democratic status quo in Okinawa with my arguments.

There is a major difference between being politically incorrect and being contemptuous - without offending you, may I encourage you to study that difference? And I believe you have the statement reversed - I support quick resolution of the FRF issue and swift return of MCAS Futenma - you oppose that plan, therefore you are for the "status quo".

Any comments on my other two points?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

This is getting rather redundant......

Yes, because you are not able to react to the content of arguments, but keep on talking about formal issues.

rather than a criticism of the various policy proposals

What Suga and Abe are doing with Okinawa are not democratic "policy proposals", but dishonest and discriminating actions. To call those policies "proposals" is factually wrong as they have not been proposed to any Japanese citizen, but have been agreed on behind closed doors between the US and the central government. And they are being forced onto the Okinawan people at the moment, so not a proposal at all.

I support quick resolution of the FRF issue and swift return of MCAS Futenma - you oppose that plan, therefore you are for the "status quo".

We have a different definition of what is the problem with the current status quo. You are expecting the Okinawan people to put up with a discriminating status quo in order to fulfill the wish list of the US military whereas I'm talking about ending discrimination and helping the Okinawan people to regain a normal level of democratic self-determination.

Judging from your arguments here at JT you don't care much about the democratic rights of the Okinawan people and I find that is a much bigger problem then openly showing disrespect for powerful but disrespectful people like Abe and Suga.

There is a lesson in that for you.

Actually I for my side wouldn't address someone I'm arguing on a par with in such a way as I find it contemptuous, but I guess that's just an example for how different people can perceive things.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Yes, because you are not able to react to the content of arguments, but keep on talking about formal issues

I’m sorry, but I can’t understand this statement. And this discussion is redundant because you fail to grasp the difference between disagreeing with someone’s views and insulting them for holding those views.

What Suga and Abe are doing with Okinawa are not democratic "policy proposals", but dishonest and discriminating actions. To call those policies "proposals" is factually wrong as they have not been proposed to any Japanese citizen, but have been agreed on behind closed doors between the US and the central government. And they are being forced onto the Okinawan people at the moment, so not a proposal at all.

Factually incorrect. Proposals can be initiatives that define any subsequent action. Many of the things the central government are suggesting are proposals. More importantly, this statement is an opinion, unless of course you were in the room behind the closed doors where these discussions took place.

We have a different definition of what is the problem with the current status quo. You are expecting the Okinawan people to put up with a discriminating status quo in order to fulfill the wish list of the US military whereas I'm talking about ending discrimination and helping the Okinawan people to regain a normal level of democratic self-determination.

There are no different definitions of status quo. I support a plan that would close Futenma and return the land to local control – you do not support that plan and have no alternative plan that can be executed. Therefore you are for the status quo of Futenma remaining as it is.

Judging from your arguments here at JT you don't care much about the democratic rights of the Okinawan people and I find that is a much bigger problem then openly showing disrespect for powerful but disrespectful people like Abe and Suga.

This statement seems to be an effort by you to justify making derogatory and insulting comments. From that, and your previous arguments, I would have to judge you are not serious about helping the people of Okinawa or assist others to understand their plight, but that you just enjoy insulting people. And as I have said many times before, that is why your posts have no value or credibility.

And still no comment on my other two points above?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Yes, because you are not able to react to the content of arguments, but keep on talking about formal issues

I haven’t the faintest idea what this sentence means. If by formal issues you mean addressing facts and not personalities, then, yes, that is what I am doing.

What Suga and Abe are doing with Okinawa are not democratic "policy proposals", but dishonest and discriminating actions. To call those policies "proposals" is factually wrong as they have not been proposed to any Japanese citizen, but have been agreed on behind closed doors between the US and the central government. And they are being forced onto the Okinawan people at the moment, so not a proposal at all.

Factually incorrect. Proposals are initiatives yet to be acted upon. And unless you were in the room behind those closed doors, your statement is an opinion, not a fact.

We have a different definition of what is the problem with the current status quo. You are expecting the Okinawan people to put up with a discriminating status quo in order to fulfill the wish list of the US military whereas I'm talking about ending discrimination and helping the Okinawan people to regain a normal level of democratic self-determination.

Hardly. I support a fully executable plan to close Futenma, Kinser and parts of Foster – those closures would all change the status quo. You oppose that plan and have no alternate executable plan of your own – therefore, you support the status quo.

Judging from your arguments here at JT you don't care much about the democratic rights of the Okinawan people and I find that is a much bigger problem then openly showing disrespect for powerful but disrespectful people like Abe and Suga.

This seems to be an argument on your behalf justifying your personal attacks against those you oppose. Again, if you choose to engage in insults and innuendo, that’s your choice – just realize that you’re not engaging in productive discussion or changing anyone’s opinion – you’re just insulting people for your own entertainment.

Actually I for my side wouldn't address someone I'm arguing on a par with in such a way as I find it contemptuous, but I guess that's just an example for how different people can perceive things.

Well, another one I don’t understand. But you called CSC Suga “sleazy” and “pathetic”. Some synonyms for contemptuous are: scornful, disdainful, disrespectful, insulting, insolent, derisive, mocking . Were your comments contemptuous? I’m sure other readers here can evaluate and decide.

And again, no comment on my other two points above?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

The city of Ginowan will get a big chunk of land back. Its people will get to sleep at night and its daughters will no longer have to fear. But for most Okinawans, 60km is not nearly far enough. They want to see the US Marines moved much further. Tokyo has simply over-ruled him. It is, the behavior of a colonial regime, and it is making people mad. It is 70 years since the end of the war, but people in Okinawa have to bear the overwhelming burden of US bases. Why don't they move some of the bases to Honshu? In a democratic country that is not right. Why don't J-government spread some of the burden to rest of the country?

0 ( +3 / -3 )

@ lincolnman

Factually incorrect. Proposals are initiatives yet to be acted upon. And unless you were in the room behind those closed doors, your statement is an opinion, not a fact.

As always, trying to obscure the bullying and the discrimination that Okinawa is experiencing.

The base relocation was agreed on behind closed doors, so even if somebody might have proposed something to somebody behind closed doors we don't know about it, but in any way it has long ago left the stage of being a "proposal" as it is being built now.

If you want to go on bothering us with your euphemisms, go ahead.

Hardly. I support a fully executable plan to close Futenma, Kinser and parts of Foster – those closures would all change the status quo.

Unfortunately you are not even able to understand what Okinawans feel to be the main problem with the status quo.

The main problem in a nutshell is that Okinawans are fed up to be told what is good for them by people from Tokyo or the US.

They want to judge and decide by themselves on what they think is appropriate, safe, livable, sound, healthy and compatible with their idea of a democratic society. They are not anti-american and they don't even seem to demand a full withdrawal of US military from their islands, at least not in a first step.

As sfjp330 and other posters here clarify, the main point for the Okinawan people is to regain the level of self-determination that is a basic condition for being part of a true democracy.

Unfortunately you apparently lack the ability to understand what it means to not have proper democratic control over ones own homeland.

The US military and Tokyo told Okinawans Futenma is safe enough to operate for decades, now suddenly Tokyo says it is so unsafe that we have to hurry up to build another new US military facility in Okinawa to make Ginowan safe again.

That is what I call hypocritical and dishonest, and if someone like Suga grins at you while pretending to care about you, but didn't care a rotten nut for you for decades, and now only cares for you in order to get the governments idea of national security organized without creating problems in mainland constituencies, then I think "sleazy" is to soft an adjective to describe that kind of fallaciousness.

But that is what happens when people without real consideration for people have the power to decide on what is good for people, and that is why the people invented democracy in the first place.

You oppose that plan and have no alternate executable plan of your own – therefore, you support the status quo.

If Okinawans would be in full possession of their democratic rights Tokyo and the US military would come up with alternative plans immediately, no question, and everybody would be happy.

And there have been several viable alternative plans, even from pundits within the US military, but of course if Tokyo, in unity with the US military, thinks it will be easier to force things onto the Okinawan people rather then to develop the alternatives it will go ahead as far as it can get.

And again, no comment on my other two points above?

Sorry, but which other two valid points are you talking about?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I had a fairly lengthy reply written out, but I discarded it because you're not going to reply to it seriously. So let's just cut to the chase - one question(s):

Why do you post comments here on JT? What is your intent? What is your goal?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Bam_boo - I had a fairly lengthy reply written, but I discarded it since I know you wouldn't respond to it seriously, so just one question if I may, why do you post here on JT? What is your purpose? What is your goal?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Login to leave a comment

Facebook users

Use your Facebook account to login or register with JapanToday. By doing so, you will also receive an email inviting you to receive our news alerts.

Facebook Connect

Login with your JapanToday account

User registration

Articles, Offers & Useful Resources

A mix of what's trending on our other sites