AUKUS weighs expanding security pact with Japan to deter China, FT says

China has called the AUKUS pact dangerous and warned it could spur a regional arms race.

I thought the CCP had already been planning to increase military spending; given reports of China's economy facing a rough patch it could be that Xi and theCCP want to boost China's economy by spending more on the military. Scary times, made scarier by having a belligerent China partnering with warmongering Russia in a quest to expand their control over the planet, requiring nations that do not want to be under the boots of China and Russia to spend more to be able to defend themselves from Chinese/Russian aggression, and defend their sovereignty.

This great news for both Japan and Australia. Because I see that both the UK and The USA will tank the submarine deal. I can see Trump looking after the interests of USA and the UK are way over committed to the USA. We seen earlier this year Biden asking Australia to send a decent form of deterrence into the Red Sea. Australia flat out refused and this will not help Australia when the Trump admin returns to power. But Japan word is true and Australia see Japan as our future best Allie. No doubt this post will be hammered and ridiculed but I back myself. I was correct about my view on Israel years before this war and was on the money.

Anything that causes China to get it's panties in a knot is usually a good thing for the rest of the world.

As long as the US remains divided it is prudent for all Allied powers to move forward with like minded nations.

I hate to say it, but I'm not sure Japan meets the information security capabilities of the others. The others are all Five Eyes. We really need a NATO like umbrella to manage different levels of capability.

China has called the AUKUS pact dangerous and warned it could spur a regional arms race.

Um, just in case you were unaware, there is an arms race. I just hope the US AI and the Chinese AI can get along.

Excellent news. Have been waiting for this.

Both Japan and the alliance will benefit immensely from Pillar Two cooperation. Working together like this is the best way to counter the totalitarian menace that is China.

As the "powers that be" push us toward WWIII, I wonder if, this time, we could get the option to opt out of the idiocy. China is not the enemy. And the AUKUS is not the enemy of China. We all live on the same planet, guys. Nowhere else to go. Isn't it about time we started working out ways to get along?

BertieWoosterToday 07:31 pm JST

Isn't it about time we started working out ways to get along?

We did: it's called international law.

But China ignores it. Hence things like AUKUS.

Really promising news. Japan is a trusted and important military ally and friend in the Asia Pacific for Australia, The UK and US. All upholding democracy and freedom in a region threatened by those who absolutely despise freedom.

If this move upsets and greatly antagonises Communist China and Fascist Russia, even better. Bring it on.

Japan has to be smart. No matter what you think, no matter what you wish, no matter what you want. Japan is always going to be next door to China. So, any hot conflict, Japan is going to in the middle, you know what it means? Look at the hot conflicts happening around the world today/Japanese history of 70 years ago.

The best thing is to do to avoid such catastrophe is to talk/negotiate/whatever etc with China, independently, with your own initiative, Ie, not for/on behalf of/proxy for/etc for others who have other agendas/ulterior motives.

In todays world, nobody wants any hot conflicts, most just want to work for a better life for their people, including China.

OKuniyoshiToday 09:32 pm JST

No matter what you think, no matter what you wish, no matter what you want. Japan is always going to be next door to China.

Yes, it will. But thankfully it won't always be next door to the CCP.

Once the CCP falls, we can all get along with China. Until then, it simply won't happen.

most just want to work for a better life for their people, including China.

The CCP works for no-one but itself. Again, once it falls it will be better for all of us, starting with the Chinese people themselves.

Is China the country for Japan to most worry about . . . ? Or is it its other big neighbor?

JtsnoseToday  09:50 pm JST

Is China the country for Japan to most worry about . . . ? Or is it its other big neighbor?

Both. But Russia has alreday stolen the 4 islands and has it's hands full right now.

China on the other hand is working hard to try and steal Japanese territory, and is extremely concerned about Japan's role when they invade Taiwan.

But both of them conduct joint exercises in the Sea of Japan and actively test and provoke Japan and US forces. So, both.

Is China the country for Japan to most worry about . . . ? Or is it its other big neighbor?

Both China and Russia are totalitarian, land-stealing bullies. They both have a hatred of freedom, and are certainly no friends of Japan.

Freedom-loving democracies are standing up against both.

OKuniyoshiToday  09:32 pm JST

Japan has to be smart. No matter what you think, no matter what you wish, no matter what you want. Japan is always going to be next door to China. 

Unfortunately, Japan's actual "next door" is Russia. However, that makes "JAUKUS" even more urgent. If there is one (potential) conflict worse than "Russia vs the Free World" it is "Russia allied with China vs the Free World". Japan will need all the help it can get, and Joe, Tone, Rish & Kish would make a great team .....

As the "powers that be" push us toward WWIII, I wonder if, this time, we could get the option to opt out of the idiocy. China is not the enemy.

Of course China is the enemy. China has been actively making itself the enemy of pretty much everyone in the region and even beyond. Even the Chinese understand this. They dont want any rules that restrict them expanding their empire, or taking what they want from others. Russia also want to break the shackles of rules and order to expand. This forces nations to work together to oppose such anarchy and ambitions of dynasty. Only the stupid roll over and allow the end of their freedom. Happily many nations will not make it easy for China or Russia to get their way.

NATO, AUKUS, QUAD and anything else that can put the breaks on such warmongering authoritarian behavior will be supported and will flourish the more China conducts threatening activities in other nations territory and in international territory.

China has well and truly started an arms race and that is now magnified by Russia's invasion. The worlds factories are gearing up and expanding capacities to ensure the world has a fighting chance against the evil China and Russia represent.

The best thing is to do to avoid such catastrophe is to talk/negotiate/whatever etc with China, independently,

Where China can bring to bear its advantage in trade and military strength to get everything it wants. Total capitulation and the ability to be used to further Chinese ambitions of ruling the region and the world. Sorry, Japan is smart enough to know that is not the way forward. Best to stay strong in partnership with like minded nations and keep the rules and order in place.

China wants to force change on its terms, that will never be allowed to happen, the world does not want to be ruled from China, or to bow to China.

In todays world, nobody wants any hot conflicts, most just want to work for a better life for their people, including China.

I count myself among those who don’t want a hot conflict, but I will take a fiery nuclear death for me and mine over subjugation any day of the week. A life without freedom is not worth living. That is something that the pro-authoritarian posters just don’t seem to get.

BertieWoosterApr. 7 07:31 pm JST

As the "powers that be" push us toward WWIII, I wonder if, this time, we could get the option to opt out of the idiocy. China is not the enemy. And the AUKUS is not the enemy of China. We all live on the same planet, guys. Nowhere else to go. Isn't it about time we started working out ways to get along?

That's great: we agree to get along by acknowledging that Free Taiwan should not be crushed militarily, China belongs out of the SCS, and the oil around the Senkakus is divided 50/50. Sensible, no?

The best thing is to do to avoid such catastrophe is to talk/negotiate/whatever etc with China, independently, with your own initiative, Ie, not for/on behalf of/proxy for/etc for others who have other agendas/ulterior motives.

China is 11 times larger than Japan by population, and has been expansionist lately. If I were Japan, I would definitively want allies when dealing with a much larger nation. Similar to how the European countries by themselves are each smaller than Russia, but together they are much bigger and stronger.

Better to negotiate from a position of strength, no?

Actually, I can answer that one myself, since my job involves negotiating on a daily basis: Yes, it is always better to negotiate from a position of strength.

OKuniyoshiApr. 7 09:32 pm JST

The best thing is to do to avoid such catastrophe is to talk/negotiate/whatever etc with China, independently, with your own initiative, Ie, not for/on behalf of/proxy for/etc for others who have other agendas/ulterior motives.

If China wants to withdraw recognition of Japan, it is free to do so. Until then, it must treat Japan as an equal.

A life without freedom is not worth living. That is something that the pro-authoritarian posters just don’t seem to get.

Which is why they are confused that Ukraine keeps fighting, even though they haven't been able to win yet.

Both. But Russia has alreday stolen the 4 islands and has it's hands full right now.

Japan surrendered all of the Kurile Islands as the result of losing a terrible war they started. STOP distorting history and stop making excuses for the horrible barbarities Japan visited on Asia and in particular China during WWII.

Japan today is very far from the Japan of the first 45 years of the 20th Century. Japanese bring shame upon themselves for making excuses for their conduct in WWII. You lost fair and square. Japan gave no quarter. She received none in return.

Desert TortoiseToday 07:39 am JST

Both. But Russia has alreday stolen the 4 islands and has it's hands full right now.

Japan surrendered all of the Kurile Islands as the result of losing a terrible war they started. STOP distorting history and stop making excuses for the horrible barbarities Japan visited on Asia and in particular China during WWII.

Japan today is very far from the Japan of the first 45 years of the 20th Century. Japanese bring shame upon themselves for making excuses for their conduct in WWII. You lost fair and square. Japan gave no quarter. She received none in return.

That's not what the negotiators of the Treaty of San Francisco were saying and that is why the Soviet Union withdrew from them. Other countries also had the basic decency to not use the Potsdam declaration as an excuse to go shopping for what was clearly Japanese territory before the war.

China will attack soon. It's their plan and America has been preparing for it for a long time. Take them down America. Take them down.

That's not what the negotiators of the Treaty of San Francisco were saying and that is why the Soviet Union withdrew from them. Other countries also had the basic decency to not use the Potsdam declaration as an excuse to go shopping for what was clearly Japanese territory before the war.

The United States gave the USSR landing ships and landing craft then trained their personnel how to use them specifically so the USSR could take the Kurile Islands from Japan. It was the intention of the Allies that the Japanese would lose the Kuriles. It was only later after the Cold War began that the US State Department tried to back track and claim, erroneously, that they never intended to force the Japanese to cede the four Kurile Islands nearest Japan. It is pretty obvious the US changed its tune. The wording of the treaties are clear on the matter.

Say what you like but all roads lead to China invading Taiwan sooner rather than later, and IMHO USA and allies may be under prepared and being mislead by its finance sector who are too slow withdrawing from China. Europe won't help given Ukraine, that leave just Japan outside of AUKUS.

China, as we type is shoring up its military partnership with Russia, it's drawing down its US treasury holdings (rapidly and at a loss), and it's buying gold like there's a war coming tomorrow.

I'm prepared and will be off to my New Zealand farm, it's likely to be ugly.

AUKUS is a military pact among Australia, the UK and the U.S. So, asking Japan to join it means that original three countries alone cannot deal with the challenge posed by rising China,

The British Empire （today's U.K.) dominated the region in the past, but its power declined significantly, and so the U.S. took its place after World War II. 

But America's hegemony in the region hasn't lasted long, either. It also declined. Former U.S. President Donald Trump's call for making America great again may be depicting the situation under which America is placed now.

 Nothing keeps going intact and unchanged forever.

 Is this their last-ditch effort. to make dreams come true?

 Is this their last-ditch effort. to make dreams come true?

China is intent on forcing their rules and despotic form of government on all and sundry. They seem to want to control everything they touch much like the Middle Kingdom of the past. We won't accept that. We won't trade our way of life simply to avoid conflict with China. I'd rather fight them than ever bow to them.

Say what you like but all roads lead to China invading Taiwan sooner rather than later, and IMHO USA and allies may be under prepared and being mislead by its finance sector who are too slow withdrawing from China. Europe won't help given Ukraine, that leave just Japan outside of AUKUS.

Whether or not GM or Starbucks leaves China has no bearing on defense planning wrt defending Taiwan or Japan. Long ago after the Chrysler near bankruptcy and bailout the US military made a concerted effort to split off the defense sector from the commercial sector. They didn't want to be in a position of bringing a new tank, the M-1 Abrams, into production when the company hired to make them, Chrysler, teetered on bankruptcy due to its civilian product not selling, or having what was effectively a cash poor start up company, Harley Davidson after the managers bought it from its old parent AMF, struggling to get its footing while expected to run a major defense factory (who knew Harleys big plant in York PA was a Naval Ordnance Factory from the 1920s making bomb casings and rocket motors for the AQM-37 target drone). Now the defense industrial base is not so exposed to the risks of the civil market. If GM takes a bath leaving China it's not going to harm the US military.

voiceofokinawaToday 01:21 pm JST

AUKUS is a military pact among Australia, the UK and the U.S. So, asking Japan to join it means that original three countries alone cannot deal with the challenge posed by rising China,

The British Empire （today's U.K.) dominated the region in the past, but its power declined significantly, and so the U.S. took its place after World War II. 

But America's hegemony in the region hasn't lasted long, either. It also declined. Former U.S. President Donald Trump's call for making America great again may be depicting the situation under which America is placed now.

 Nothing keeps going intact and unchanged forever.

 Is this their last-ditch effort. to make dreams come true?

You got no one to replace the US but China. That may be alright with you but probably isn't for most. Also the treasury yield curve is negative and starts out at the FED overnight rate so zero problems borrowing.

Desert TortoiseToday 10:58 am JST

The wording of the treaties are clear on the matter.

Well it doesn't really matter because the USSR was never a party to the Treaty of San Francisco and Yalta and Potsdam remain demands enforced at gunpoint.

Desert Tortoise (Today  01:50 pm JST):

I'd rather fight them than ever bow to them.

I'd rather be engaged in dialogue before going into an arms conflict in a flurry.

Desert TortoiseToday  07:39 am JST

Both. But Russia has alreday stolen the 4 islands and has it's hands full right now.

Japan surrendered all of the Kurile Islands as the result of losing a terrible war they started. STOP distorting history and stop making excuses for the horrible barbarities Japan visited on Asia and in particular China during WWII.

Brainwashed much? Family influence? Japan esurrended the northern Kuriles at the 1951 San Francisco Treaty. But the Sovit Union did not attend, much less sign it. As far as the Treaty signatories are concerned, nobody gave the USSR the right to administer the 4 Southrn Kuriles.

The Cairo Declaration stipulated that Imperial Japan would lose territories that it had taken by war. The 4 islands wre exempt as they became Japanese territory through a negotiated Treaty with Russia in 1855.

The United States, United Kingdom amnd the EU consider the 4 islands to be Japanese territory under Russian administration (occupation).

The USSR invaded and took the 4 islands after Imperial Japan declared surrender. They were without doubt stolen.

Imperial Japan's invasion of the Republic of China is utterly irrelevant to this issue. The USSR maintained a Non-Aggression Pact with Japan while it ws invading the Chinese mainland. Strongly suggest you read up on history and develop an objective viewpoint instead of regurgitating CCP anti-JPN propaganda.

Desert TortoiseToday  10:58 am JST

That's not what the negotiators of the Treaty of San Francisco were saying and that is why the Soviet Union withdrew from them. Other countries also had the basic decency to not use the Potsdam declaration as an excuse to go shopping for what was clearly Japanese territory before the war.

The United States gave the USSR landing ships and landing craft then trained their personnel how to use them specifically so the USSR could take the Kurile Islands from Japan

Absolute nonsense. The USSR had US landing craft (as well as B-29s) under the led lease program. There was never any intent on gte US part for the USSR to the Southern Kuriles.

"This article looks at two prevalent misconceptions about the U.S. government's policies on the Kuril - Northern Territories - Islands dispute. The first is that Roosevelt agreed at the Yalta Conference to cede "all" of the Kurils to the Soviet Union. In fact, the Yalta agreement never used the word "all" and it was only during August 1945, during a series of exchanges between Stalin and Truman, that Truman agreed in General Order No. 1 to grant the USSR occupation rights to "all" of the Kurils, including the southernmost islands traditionally considered to be part of Hokkaido. The Department of State's interpretation of the Yalta agreement and General Order No. 1 was that the Soviet occupation of the southernmost Kuril islands was intended to be a temporary military occupation only, until such a time that a Soviet-Japanese peace treaty transferred sovereignty of the Kurils to the USSR. "

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2761081

Desert TortoiseToday  10:58 am JST

The United States gave the USSR landing ships and landing craft then trained their personnel how to use them specifically so the USSR could take the Kurile Islands from Japan

“The Kuril islands shall be handed over to the Soviet Union.” There was, however, no definition of the term Kuril Islands. Since the Habomai Islands and Shikotan Island have been traditionally regarded as an island group distinct from the Kuril archipelago, and under Japanese control had a local administration as a political subdivision of Hokkaido separate from the Kuril island local administration, there appears no valid basis, either in the Yalta Agreement or in any other international understanding, justifying Soviet occupation of the Habomai-Shikotan area at the end of the war in addition to the Soviet occupation of the Kuril Islands. It can only be concluded, therefore, that the Soviet occupation of the Habomai Group and Shikotan Island was a unilateral action for which no more previous understanding had been reached than for Soviet occupation of the island of Hokkaido."

"From Japanese sources it has been learned, however, that on the basis of a surrender agreement concluded on August 19, 1945, in Manchuria between the Commander-in-Chief of Soviet Forces in the Far East and the Chief of Staff of the Japanese Kwantung Army, Japanese forces throughout the entire Kuril chain and in the Habomai Group and Shikotan had ceased hostilities and surrendered their arms before General Order No. 1 was issued on September 2. It may be said, therefore, that the Soviet Union, while invading and occupying the Kuril Islands, lost no time in extending this military operation to include the Habomai–Shikotan area, thus confronting the Allied Powers, and particularly the United States, with a fait accompli."

https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1949v07p2/d106

I see it everyday and have been involved VERY INVOLVED for the last 20 years. If you only KNEW and COULD SEE AND TOUCH daily the things that are and have been developed and has been deployed and continuing to be in place by AUS,US,NATO,Japan and SK they have the means to put eyes on CHINA. They can bark all they want and people can talk and guess but if you are not in the middle and seeing it first hand. Loose lips sink ship can't say anymore!

Right now.

Japan doesn't have the security qualifications for Five Eyes level intelligence sharing.

Cyber or HUMIN.

And won't be ready for quite a while. Even though a stated goal.

They need to work on it.

Pretty hard- over a long term basis.

There is scant trust in their current systems. And for good reason.

Whether or not GM or Starbucks leaves

I was specific, US money invested in China, not US businesses with a presence. I'm referring to money that can sway USA from supporting its allies.