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Australia: diplomacy, not courts best way to stop whaling

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Means, neither diplomacy nor law, it will be Sea Shepherd vs J-whalers, clicks from posters and recession-proof business for the Media.

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Australia’s leader rebuffed a conservation group’s offer to stop >harassing Japanese whalers if Canberra takes legal action against them,

I say go ahead and take legal action against Watson and Sea Shepherd.

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Ossan, can i borrow your rose coloured glasses one day? I need to see the world in a way that doesn't depress me, like the way the whalers do, with their prolonged killing practises on these lovely creatures.

The best way to stop the whaling is to blow the boats out of the water, yeah , that would learn them a lesson.

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The best way to stop the whaling is to blow the boats out of the water, yeah , that would learn them a lesson.

True.

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It seems that Australia can not stop J-whalers legally and Japan will not stop hunting for research forever. I see something clear. This issue will not get anywhere unless they meet half way each other.

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OssanAmerica - Why be selective? Why organise law enforcement to arrest them and not the other party?

If you arrest the whalers the sea shepherd will disappear too. The whales will be safe and millions of Japanese will be none the worse off.

Again - WHO EATS WHALE ????

The whole thing is just stupid. An easy solution exists but our leaders prefer the crooked path.

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Of course the Australian government rebuffed SS. There's no election this year. And the sweet-heart deal they have obviously made with Japan to "keep it nice" will continue until the next election. Then the Australian government will again promise to "get tough" on the whalers.

Go Sea Shepherd!

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So, Sea Shepherd just refuelled in Australia, eh? Not bad for a so-called "terrorist" group! But wait a minute, the Japanese whaling fleet are barred from entering Australian ports! The Yushin Maru #2 had to go to Indonesia for repairs.

How perplexing!

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Rudd government can not afford to offend either Japan or China at the moment, due to global recession Australian jobs are disappearing faster than a bullet train! Whales will be alright.

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I and maybe other people don't think Sea Shepherd's radical actions whatever actions would not stop j-whalers as they still have been hunting for more than 20 years until today and in future. Because this is a cat-chasing-mouse game.

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tclh

You're right on the money! It's the ALP mantra - jobs, jobs, jobs!

They couldn't give two hoots for the whales - as long as they get the green preferences in the marginal seats next election. The liberals were more anti-whaling than this crew! Former Senator Campbell is now with SS!!!

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kwatt

When the SS are around, the whaling stops. Fact.

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J-whalers stops temporarily but they hunt around 900 whales until end of April every year. Fact, too.

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kwatt -

They got only about half their target last year. SS was effective.

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I and maybe other people don't think Sea Shepherd's radical actions whatever actions would not stop j-whalers

kwatt - I just pointed out that they do stop the whalers when they around. They would stop more, if they had the same resources that the Japanese tax-payer funded whalers have. If you think that they are no problem to whalers, then why all the fuss about them? If they are no problem, why not ignore them? Why all the angry blogs about "eco-terrorists"?

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J-whalers take about 6 months to hunt whales all over in the widest ocean because purpuse is for scientific reserch. I heard that they could hunt 900 in 2 months in small area if purpose/target is only for commercial and J-whalers have good skills of whale search and harpoon.

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This situation is a result of "Failed Politics." 20 years down the road and not a thing done to stop this crap. I wonder why... Probably because trade and economics are of far greater importance (to Governments anyway) than whaling. Everyone knows that. If there is money to be made itll be without any ethical consideration. Its sick but the world is becoming a sespool because the changes needed for improvement are taking too long and eventually became forgotten or people don`t have the energy, time and resources to continue fighting.

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kwatt,

To meet each other half-way will be impossible, I believe, since Australia says it does not want any whales to be killed at all, and Japan wishes to kill whales sustainably. These two positions are mutually exclusive. Without a massive loss of face for Australia, there can be no compromise.

Personally I believe there is no reason to compromise either. Australia is welcome to be anti-whaling. Japan is welcome to be pro-whaling. Japan conducts whaling. Australia complains about whaling. Everyone gets to stick to their position. No one is adversely effected by the actions of others (unless one regards whales as people).

The only part of this puzzle that is missing is Japan is not whaling yet (commercially I mean). But it seems they are likely to resume commercial whaling in coastal waters, one way or the other, very shortly.

Stonefish,

I eat whales, so do various people I know, as well as lots that I don't.

pointofview,

At the end of the day, Australians don't care THAT much about whales. The fact is that recent BBC opinion polls show that Japan is one of the most favourably viewed nations in the world, and even more than 70% of Australians (above the global average) think that Japan has a positive influence on world affairs. The whaling issue is the ultimate storm-in-a-teacup.

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I think that Japan may be able to be much satisfied with commercial whaling in costal waters around Japan if IWC allows Japan to do it. However good scientitic research seems to be very necessary/important in very wide ocean in order to prevent extermination of all whales. People always must learn something from the past.

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Patrick Smash at 01:17 PM JST - 23rd January,

If 180 other countries decide there is money in this and also want a piece of it, Japan's catch will end up limited to half a dozen whales.

So be it. There's no problem with that. My guess is that (in this hypothetical scenario) the different operators in different countries would see sense in combining their operations (e.g., forming an "international" whaling company).

Just whale in Japanese waters, and international waters within a 200-mile radius, and this probelm disappears.

I wonder if the Norwegians, Icelanders and coastal whalers of Japan who are already the subject of protest believe that.

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good scientitic research seems to be very necessary/important in very wide ocean in order to prevent extermination of all whales

Not killing whales would do more to prevent their extermination than 'scientitic research', so matter how good it might be.

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cleo, As you know, not killing whales precludes the benefits to be reaped through their utilisation. Therefore your suggestion does not qualify as a useful candidate when considering the risk/reward trade-off.

Other candidates do allow benefits from the utilisation of whales and at the same time do not significantly increase the risk of extermination of all whales coming to fruition. These options are the ones that, realistically, will be considered.

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Japan will not hunt and kill whales for scientitic research if whales come to medical examinations of biological blood tests, food poisonings tests, small and large intestine tests, etc and answer the many questions such as what kinds of things you ate today, etc, etc.

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kwatt.. how old they are, how many offspring they have produced, and the age at which they started producing offspring... as well :)

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All of which can be achieved through non-lethal methods, as any marine biologist not on the whalers payroll will tell you!

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davidattokyo,

Good point. But I think the majority of people dont know much about Japan outside of where it is on the map, Pearl Harbour and sushi...They certainly dont know many details.

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Davidattokyo - You eat whales? Then you are one of a minority who are poisoning themselves on the stuff. The point is not that people do eat whale - the point is that FEW people eat whale. And thus it is an activity that can be dispensed with with the minimum of fuss.

In terms of their species number, what percentage of whales are affected by this activity? Compare this to the percentage of humans that would be affected by its cesation.

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Stonefish at 02:24 PM JST - 23rd January

Yes, I eat whale (had my first helping for 2009 just a few nights back).

the point is that FEW people eat whale.

Yes, as a natural consequence of a) over-exploitation of whales in the past and b) the commercial whaling moratorium not being lifted despite the abundance of minke whales and recovering levels of other whale stocks.

And thus it is an activity that can be dispensed with with the minimum of fuss.

But why would we want whaling to be dispensed of? Eating whale is a good alternative to eating tuna and beef. 75% or more of the world's fisheries are already over-exploited or exploited to their fullest potential. Some species of whales represent under-exploited marine resources, which should be utilised so as to help take the pressure off over-exploited ones. This is not only a matter of taste, but also a matter of proper use of marine resources.

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Stonefish - Well put. I agree completely!

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why would we want whaling to be dispensed of?

Because it's cruel and barbaric.

Eating whale is a good alternative to eating tuna and beef.

Why do you need an alternative? Why not just dispense with the whole eating dead bodies thing? If the human population keeps on growing at its present rate, it's going to have to come to a stop anyway.

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Cleo - Well put. I agree with you, too!

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But I think the majority of people dont know much about Japan outside of where it is on the map, Pearl Harbour and sushi...They certainly dont know many details.

pointofview - Yes, and a majority of Japanese don't think much of whaling either. Those that do know about it, are simply horrified at the waste of tax-payers money, and of the international embarrassment it causes Japan.

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cleo, I am not in favour of your pro-deforestation approach. It's better to utilise the living marine resources of the sea on a sustainable basis than it is to destroy natural scrub to grow more vegetables.

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nipandtuck,

[Japanese] that do know about [whaling], are simply horrified at the waste of tax-payers money, and of the international embarrassment it causes Japan.

Japan couldn't have maintained it's policy on whaling for a quarter of a century if that were the reality.

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It's better to utilise the living marine resources of the sea on a sustainable basis than it is to destroy natural scrub to grow more vegetables.

There's no need to grow more vegetables. Just eat the ones we already grow instead of feeding them to imprisoned animals to produce one-ninth the amount of protein. An added benefit is the reduction of water pollution from meat farm effluent.

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Cleo - keep it up. I'm cheering from the sidelines here!

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Japan couldn't have maintained it's policy on whaling for a quarter of a century if that were the reality.

davidattokyo - That's funny. No, I mean it! What a blast! In the words of John McEnroe, "You cannot be serious!"

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There's no need to grow more vegetables. Just eat the ones we already grow instead of feeding them to imprisoned animals to produce one-ninth the amount of protein.

Supposedly, those vegetables are not fit for human consumption. But a little tweaking and I am sure that could be fixed.

Deforestation will not be necessary. Turn the factory raise and slaughter mills into farms, and we get less CO2, more O2 and less methane in the atmosphere from cow farts.

It would be a win, win, win situation.

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This is not only a matter of taste, but also a matter of proper use of marine resources.

You know you have started down the slippery slope when living beings are viewed as just matters of taste and resources to be exploited. You have become so uncompassionate that it should come as no surprise when you yourself are viewed as nothing more than a resource.

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likeitis - Great Idea! Maybe we could hunt whale-eaters! Can't eat whale-eaters; too many toxins! Fertiliser? Nah, that won't work either. Difficult to see what kind of resource they could become!

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likeitis, so go complain to the United Nations / FAO about it.

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Difficult to see what kind of resource they could become!

I think just hot air.

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Now this thread has come full circle! Hot air, is just what the Rudd government proposes.

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nipandtuck, hot air yes, but who seriously thought otherwise when they hit the election campaign trail back in 2007?

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hot air yes

David, good to see that you agree that the only resource that could come from whale-eaters is hot air.

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I say boycott all things made in Japan until these barbarians stop killing intelligent beings and breaking international laws.

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Mystie - Yeah, I agree!

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A boycott or sanctioning of Japanese goods would be a good idea although it would never come into play. Too many countries rely on Japanese goods, especially electronics, to stay afloat. However, I would love to see it happen. The world could also start yanking a few tourist visas for Japan-gins and make them stay at home.

Interesting point about veges. I saw a documentary recently about rooftop hydroponic gardens in Singapore having the possibility to totally stop the need for Singapore to import vegetables. Possibly Japan could start farming whales on the roof of Roppongi Hills. It makes as much sense as killing a thousand whales a year for "uhum" scientific research.
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Can't eat whale-eaters; too many toxins! Fertiliser? Nah, that won't work either. Difficult to see what kind of resource they could become!

Hang them on poles near runways, to frighten the birds away with their bleating. That would keep them out of the way and make air travel safer. Or use the hot air for some kind of organic heating system? :-)

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TJrandom, wow way to totally misquote me and ignore context :) Just out of curiosity, were you one of the folks who voted for Labor?

Mystie, Good luck with your boycott, I wonder why no one else has thought of that these past 25 years. Oh, perhaps a few people did, but the majority don't actually care enough to bother?

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Davidtokoyo,

You sound very much to me like a ICR goverment controlled puppet.

nipandtuck,

[Japanese] that do know about [whaling], are simply horrified at the waste of tax-payers money, and of the international embarrassment it causes Japan.

YOU SAY....Japan couldn't have maintained it's policy on whaling for a quarter of a century if that were the reality.

You dont really believe that surely?

Your government subsides the whaling industry to the tune of MILLIONS of dollars per year, they admit that openly. It is a totally uneconomic and unviable industry, which could NOT stand alone without the support of tax payers dollars.

And nipandtuck is correct when he stated the majority of the japanese public are unaware that there there taxes are being spent on whaling, and ARE horrified when informed. The TRUTH is japan could NOT have maintained their whaling policy, if the public were informed of all the details relating to japans whaling.

If you are here to defend japans whaling, please research the truth, then put forth your argument.

And again I ask you to please tell me "Why japan chooses a legally santioned whale santuary to kill whales including endangered ones.? Why is japan not happy top only kill whales in its OWN waters?

cooeecobber at 10:44 AM JST - 23rd January

So, Sea Shepherd just refuelled in Australia, eh? Not bad for a so-called "terrorist" group! But wait a minute, the Japanese whaling fleet are barred from entering Australian ports! The Yushin Maru #2 had to go to Indonesia for repairs.

How perplexing!<<<

HI Cooeecobber,

And are you also aware that Japan tried to hide its harpoon on board the yusin maru, in an attempt to gain a port in Indonesia? But after recieving photos of the yushin maru, with harpoon fitted killing whales just weeks before, thankfully the Indonesian governmet also turned the ship away.

The yusin Maru, was last seen limping away looking for a port to fix there ship!

Might have to go back to japan fellas, your barbaric torture of whales combined with the barrage of lies and deciept, is wearing thin EVERYWHERE!

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Cooeebobber is right, and the indonesians also refused them a port and turned the limping vessel away, after the japanese took the harpoon off, and tried to prentend it was not a harpoon vessel. How decieptful!

But luckily those with proof and photos, of the ship killing whales just a few weeks earlier were sent to the indonesian authorites. The yusin maru, was last seen limping away, trying to find a friendly port somehwere in the world to fix the problem. Good luck finding a friendly port, they know it will be hard to find someone sympathetic to the lies, they will probably just have to limp back to japan.

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way to totally misquote me

Yes, you are right David. I did enjoy that one - particularly because you had not correctly read and understood the genesis of the exchange.

BTW - paying taxes in Australia, and voting for Labour - you are fishing aren't you.

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Mystie,

Boycotting is actually huge among fairly large groups in a lot of nations.

Facebook has a group with over 500 thousandssupporters of an end to japan whaling. In this fragile economy, no company can afford to be offside by the international public, especially as whaling dosent effect them direcly.

By boycotting ALL japanese owned companies, and sending them an email stating your reasons why, they are in a position to put pressure on the Japanese government from within.

Evertime you choose a brand which is not japanese owned, its important to let them know. The Face book groups have the email addresses of japanese companies , also the email addresses of the outlets of those products in your own country.

It is a fantasic way the allow the voice of the international community to be heard, ans could ulimatly force a change from within.

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Aussieooo - Yes, and isn't it interesting how silent the Japanese media have been on the Yushin Maru #2! Including the pro-whalers here!

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Cooeecobber,

Lmao, oh yes, the silence is deafning. Im actually quite dissappointed, as i actually enjoy the grossly misleading, blatent lies and hypocracies that spew out from the government puppet agency ICR and the government fisheries agencies.

It really is quite amusing, but rather embarrassing for the country. Those spokespersons must be being VERY well paid I think...lol.

In the group I spoke of above, we started (and continue)a campain to send instant noodles from all over the world to japans PM, with a note.

Japans government, in an attempt to force the younger people of japan to grow a liking for whalemeat, and to try and find a consumer for the thousands of stockpiles of whalemeat going unused and unwanted, began a campain to distribute whalemeat to school tuckshops.

So we gathered (tongue in cheek), that school children were being forced to eat whalemeat they did not like, and in some cases contained mercury and toxin levels to be 10 higher than japans own health services reccomended as safe levels...that Japanese school children must be hungry, and must eat toxic food.

So overall so far we have send 74,000 packets of instant noodles to japans PM!!!!

Can you imagine his office....lmao.

All with a note, this is for your school children, and is far less toxic than whalemeat! Lmao

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Aussieooo,

You sound very much to me like a ICR goverment controlled puppet.

This is why you are writing a big long response to me huh.

Your government subsides the whaling industry

You guys are so funny the way you contradict yourselves. You complain that Japan's research programmes (involving both lethal and non-lethal methods of data collection) is "commercial whaling in disguise", and then complain that the "commercial whaling in disguise" does not make profits.

Your basis premise is wrong, that's why everything seems so strange to you.

they admit that openly.

Exactly. Why would they hide it? It's not them who is saying that it's "commercial whaling in disguise", it's morons hailing from brain-washed places like Australia.

please tell me "Why japan chooses a legally santioned whale santuary to kill whales including endangered ones.? Why is japan not happy top only kill whales in its OWN waters?"

1) Japan isn't killing endangered whales in its programmes 2) The "sanctuary" wasn't established until 1994, by which time there was already a commercial whaling moratorium, and Japan had already commenced their research programmes 3) IWC "sanctuaries" prevent commercial whaling activities, not scientific permit whaling which is legal under the terms of the international agreement that Australia and Japan have put their signatures to.

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I do not think that majority of people would boycott all Japanese products even if people agreed with anti-whale protestors. It is very unrealistic for people to avoid Japanese products because maybe your cars (if) used J-parts do not even run.

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Aussieooo, Cooeebobber, reports in Australia suggest that the Yushin Maru #2 was repaired and returned to sea. Even your cult-idol, Paul Watson, recognises this on his website. The Japanese media doesn't get so excited as Aussies about every operational issue of the whaling fleet - nor do I... You guys really do love this for the drama don't you?

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Why is japan not happy top only kill whales in its OWN waters?"

Why is Australia not happy to only kill fish in its OWN waters?

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unrealistic for people to avoid Japanese products

Yes that is true - but where there is a choice, and the reason for that choice can be made known - there is value for the effort taken.

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David tokoyo, No it is you who are constantly contrdicting your self, read back on your posts. Your answer to nit and tuck, was that if the people knew the Whaling was government subsided, it would not have been able to maintain its policy on whaling.

WELL IT IS, you didnt even know that so, that proves nipandtucks point, the japanese public as a whole are unaware. And of course there not gunna hide that fact when confronted by the international community, because the facts are there! And you didnt know it....!

You said..

japan is not killing endangered whales 2< ????

Again you are unaware of the realities, japan is again targetting 50 FIn whales along with the minke whales this year. FIN WHALES ARE ENDANGERED. And there are no exact numbers on the minke population, only estimates, but the J population of minkes is considered endangered by CITES.

The whale santuary! I ask you again, for the third time without an answer. Why is Japan travelling 2000 miles from home to a legally santioned whale santuary to kill whales. Why do they not do there"supermarket science" in there own eez?????

Why is japan killing 1000 whales per year (some endangered) using lethal techniques, when all but 1 (age), can be easily produced using non-lethal techniques???

Why do you then need to kill 1000 whales to find out there age? There DEAD! Thats how old they are.

And again, please show the good folks here how much PEER reviewed scientific data relating to the management of whale stocks , has come from 20 years and tens of thousands of dead whales.

Come on david, you know you know the answer, it on the net to see.....Yep, go to the top of the class, your right!! Only 5 peer reviwed papers, and of those only 2 would relate to the management of whale stocks which is the criteria of the IWC.

I would appreciate your answer to my questions.

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OOOPs sorry, your a bit confused there buddy.

Whales are not fish, yup...totally different. But if you want to start of fish...wow, i have a HUGE stack of PEeR reviwed papers here, showing the extent japan will go to to get tuna, and anything else that moves in the ocean. Mind you japan is not alone, but they are the largest consumer of seafood in the world and the major driver of the seafood black market. But yep, thats a whole other story..

i am waiting for your answers....not the deflection ploy.

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davidattokyo at 05:56 PM JST - 23rd January

Aussieooo, Cooeebobber, reports in Australia suggest that the Yushin Maru #2 was repaired and returned to sea. Even your cult-idol, Paul Watson, recognises this on his website. The Japanese media doesn't get so excited as Aussies about every operational issue of the whaling fleet - nor do I... You guys really do love this for the drama don't you?

Lol....ok, grasping at straws now.

I cant be sure, but i would asume the japanese public dont get excited cause other nations are not in japans leagally sanctioned "santuary" brutally slaughtering whales...for NO REASON!

Id really, love to hear your point of view on the questions i put forth!

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Why is Australia not happy to only kill fish in its OWN waters?

Gees Davidattokyo, you're scraping the barrel with this response. From what I know Australia does only kill fish in its own waters, in which, fish stocks and bag limits are strictly controlled. Shame Japan doesn't have the same policies for the oceans around Japan or there might actually be some fish in them instead of just extra large jellyfish. This is the whole point of the anti-whaling lobby. Strict controls to conserve stocks. And yes, you will argue Japan is only killing whales to see how many they can kill before they endanger the whale populations. What sort of batardisation of logic is that?

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david tokoyo,

HMMM,

reports in Australia suggest that the Yushin Maru #2 was repaired and returned to sea. Even your cult-idol, Paul Watson, recognises this on his website.<<<

You probably should check your facts there buddy, that is what the JAPANESE emabssasy is saying... And as usual, not exacly the truth, dont wanna lose face huh! http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-media/news-090122-1.html

keep trying though buddy...your doing well.

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david tokoyo, Hmm, this is the japaese embassies statement, not exactly the truth, sorry to say. They are not to happy about losing face Check for the real truth

http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-media/news-090122-1.html

Good try though... Still waiting.

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Aussieooo,

My answer to nipandtuck was that if Japanese who know about whaling were "simply horrified at the waste of tax-payers money, and of the internationa embarrassment is causes Japan" (which is regarded around the world as one of the nations having a favourable influence), Japan would not have kept the policy. Fact is, that characterisation is not reality, it's bogus anti-whaling rhetoric.

FIN WHALES ARE ENDANGERED.

No they aren't. This is a species that was protected in the 1970's - e.g. more than 30 years ago. The population is recovering nicely, both in the Antarctic and in other places like the North Atlantic. If the fin whale becomes extinct during my lifetime because of a little whaling then I'll give you my bank account details.

the J population of minkes is considered endangered by CITES.

CITES doesn't base its whale listings on science. It's politically motivated.

Here you go: Antarctic Blue whale. This species is endangered. Only like 3,000 in the Antarctic. At least they are showing signs of recovery, but it's still too early to be sure and too early to consider hunting them. Japan knows this from it's own research. And guess what. Japan is not hunting this species.

The whale santuary! I ask you again, for the third time without an answer.

I gave you the answer. The whale "sanctuary" didn't even exist when Japan's programme started, and "sanctuaries" are meaningless with regards to research permit whaling. It's in the IWC's rules.

Why do they not do there"supermarket science" in there own eez?????

For the same reasons that Australians don't catch marine resources exclusively in their own EEZ.

Why is japan killing 1000 whales per year (some endangered) using lethal techniques, when all but 1 (age), can be easily produced using non-lethal techniques???

There's many more than one data item that can only be obtained via lethal techniques. Stomach contents (prey composition and quantity), reproductive organs etc, plus a recent study published in a western journal to the dismay of anti-whaling NGOs used blubber measurements.

Why do you then need to kill 1000 whales to find out there age?

Read up about population dynamics modelling (catch-at-age / virtual population analysis etc), there is lots of information about this with regards to marine resources.

Only 5 peer reviwed papers

It seems that many western journals won't accept papers based not on the scientific merits but for reasons of western ethics, so whatever the figure is, it doesn't mean anything

Whales are not fish, yup...totally different.

Yeah, so what?

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Aussieooo,

other nations are not in japans leagally sanctioned "santuary" brutally slaughtering whales

Japan is conducting on the high seas in a manner that is consistent with international agreements to which nations including Australia have put their signature to.

Disillusioned,

From what I know Australia does only kill fish in its own waters,

Incorrect. It also exploits marine resources on the high seas as well.

the anti-whaling lobby. Strict controls to conserve stocks.

Eh?! The pro-whaling lobby is for strict controls to conserve stocks. The anti-whaling lobby is for complete blanket protections for whales, no matter how abundant any given species may be.

And yes, you will argue Japan is only killing whales to see how many they can kill before they endanger the whale populations.

All responsible advanced nations that utilise marine resources analyse biological data from their fisheries to determine this. Whaling nations apply the same concepts to whale stock management. Get over it. Whales are not "special".

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David Answer to question 1 You are assuming the public are aware, my extensive experience of the japanese public is that the majority are NOT aware. But even if they were, it is the japanese way Not to question government, so the outcome would not change anyway. They may be horrified,but are not in a position to question decisions of government.

Q2

Please david, go to the CITES website, FIN whales ARE endangered, while your there, check on the extent japan goes to to constantly lobby for the downgrading of endangered whale species. it is endless, all have been denied to date. Just because you dont want them to be listed as endangered, dosent mean there not.

Q3 That is entirely your assumption. CITES is the governing body relating to the protection of endangered species. Do you proffess to be more knowledgable than them regading species nunbers?

Q4.

The whale santuary exists now, as a place whales are free to breed and recover from the past. japan is whaling there NOW, WHY? Japan also kills whales in many other parts of the world, including off the coasts of anti whaling nations and poor islands and countries using whale watching to feed there families. WHY the whale santuary? Why not japans own backyard?

Q5, Australia does fish in its own eez, as does japan, but as i said before whales are not fish. If australia were killing whales in Japans eez...you could use that argument, there NOT!

Q 6,7,8

There is ONLY 1 scientific determination that requires lethal data, AGE. All the rest can be obtained by NON lethal methods. These are NOT just the findings o westerners, but of legimiate scientists all over the world. Please do yourself a favour, and check this for yourself. Do not look at ICR or fisheries propaganda, similaly do not look at western science...use the opinion from scientists all over the world to find the truth. This is a well known fact, and one which even your own government admits is correct.

PEER reviewed work is the only to viably assess research worldwide. It is the ONLY methos to assess the suitablity of research based science. Whether you agree or not thats the way it is. And some legitimate japanese scientists have published many good research results this way, they agree, why dont you?

You have not really answered my questions. Why do you think japan goes all the to a a leagally santioned whale santuary to kill whales...why not expand the local whaling that takes place now in local waters?

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Dissillusioned

I am not aware that Australia fishes in others eez's, but then i cant be sure as many nations have agreements to fish others eez's for FISH...not whales.

A few years ago, japan had the rights to fish in australias EEZ. But japan then decided to grant itself a HUGE extra bluefin tuna take, way above its quota (japan has the largest quota), Australia and NZ fought this in court and won. it was then discovered japan had illeggally taken 6 billion dollars of extra tuna illegally, they admitted this and had there quota cut for the next 5 years. Australia then involked its permission for japan to fish its EEZ.

Japan has shown over end over again, they feel no responsiility for the health of our oceans or species. history shows they can not be trusted with the marine eco system we all have to share.

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Q1

it is the japanese way Not to question government

Is that why the LDP is polling as if it is about to get kicked out of power this year?

are not in a position to question decisions of government.

Japan is not North Korea.

my extensive experience of the japanese public is that the majority are NOT aware.

You sound like you read nothing but Greenpeace propaganda.

Q2

go to the CITES website

CITES classifies whales based on politics, not on science. Even the Antarctic minke is classified on Appendix II, which is ridiculous.

check on the extent japan goes to to constantly lobby for the downgrading of endangered whale species.

Why wouldn't they? Japan is quite right.

Just because you dont want them to be listed as endangered, dosent mean there not.

Just because you want them to be listed as endangered, doesn't mean they are. What matters is the numbers of the species, and trends in those. Not whether some bunch of hippie politicians voted yay or nay. That's just propaganda, not reality.

Q3

Do you proffess to be more knowledgable than them regading species nunbers?

CITES is a political body. Politicians can vote yes to proposals to list non-endangered species, and they get listed as a result. It doesn't mean the species are endangered. Just look at the whales.

Q4.

The whale santuary exists now, as a place whales are free to breed and recover from the past.

There was a "Moratorium" since 1986, a "sanctuary" is just a duplication of that. And the Antarctic minke species for example does not need protection from sustainable exploitation. And for your interest, whales do not breed in the Southern Ocean "Sanctuary", they breed in warmer waters to the north during the austral winter.

japan is whaling there NOW, WHY?

Why should Japan have stopped?

including off the coasts of anti whaling nations and poor islands and countries

Eh... the coasts of WHICH "poor islands and countries"?

Q5

whales are not fish.

If you hadn't figured it out already, whales and fish are both marine resources. Both are food. And both Australia and Japan exploit marine resources on the high seas, in accordance with international agreements.

Q6,7,8

There is ONLY 1 scientific determination that requires lethal data, AGE.

Not true, there is more, and I already gave you examples. If you want answers to your questions, you have to actually read what I write in response and not ignore everything that is inconvenient.

You have not really answered my questions.

You have not really read my answers....

Why do you think japan goes all the to a a leagally santioned whale santuary to kill whales...

For the same reasons as Australia exploits marine resources on the high seas. It's about using marine resources for the benefit of humans, and so long as it's done on a sustainable basis I support it, whether it's Japan or Australia or whoever.

Australia should not feel guilty for exploiting marine resources on the high seas.

why not expand the local whaling that takes place now in local waters?

The IWC is full of anti-whaling nations that wish to ban whaling entirely, let alone permit more to occur. Australia is the loudest of all anti-whaling nations with such a policy. If you want Japan to expand it's local whaling, then you need to tell your Aussie government that you want it to change it's policy. No use complaining to me or Japan - Japan's government has no room to move, because there is already a ridiculous "moratorium" banning sustainable whale exploitation globally.

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The Rudd Labor Government will invest more than $6 million in 2008-09 in non-lethal whale research and other critical, conservation programs as part of its ongoing strategy to end so-called 'scientific' whaling, Environment Minister Peter Garrett announced today.

Mr Garrett said the new funding, including $4 million for whale research and scientific partnerships with other countries, was an unprecedented commitment to the anti-whaling cause.

"This funding will ramp up the first phase of the Government's internationally endorsed reform program for the International Whaling Commission, directed at changing it to a conservation-focused organisation.

"Australia does not believe that we need to kill whales to understand them. Modern day research uses genetic and molecular techniques, as well as satellite tags, acoustic methods and aerial surveys, rather than grenade-tipped harpoons," Mr Garrett said.

"The Australian led Southern Ocean Research Partnership is a ground-breaking new model for coordinated regional non-lethal whale research. This will be the first truly international, multidisciplinary research collaboration that will focus on improving the conservation of whales."

Mr Garrett said an invitation to join the partnership was extended to all IWC member nations at the June meeting and would be made again at the next meeting of the IWC Small Working Group in early December 2008.

"I would urge all the nations of the IWC to join with us in this exciting new venture and Australia would warmly welcome the participation of Japan."

Mr Garrett said the research partnerships were a key component of Australia’s reform proposal for the IWC, which also included the establishment of internationally-agreed conservation management plans and reform of the management of science at the IWC.

Other elements of the anti-whaling funding package include:

investments in the latest non-lethal research technology; the identification and development of whale-watching opportunities as an alternative to lethal uses of whales in regions such as the Pacific; and a comprehensive, independent assessment of the scientific credibility of Japan's so-called 'scientific' whaling program. "Today's investment is about debunking once and for all the need to kill whales in the name of science and providing capacity to support non-lethal research partnerships, as well as promoting the economic value of whale-watching."

Mr Garrett said the funding commitment came on top of the most comprehensive approach adopted by any Australian government to end commercial and so-called 'scientific' whaling.

"Since coming to office we have consistently maintained diplomatic pressure on Japan to end its Southern Ocean hunt, most recently appointing Mr Sandy Hollway as our Special Envoy on Whale Conservation.

"Australia remains resolute in its opposition to commercial and co-called ‘scientific’ whaling, and we continue to step up our diplomatic efforts. All options remain on the table, including the possibility of taking international legal action."

David tokoyo

Australia is going to invite all other nations, including japan to participate in whale research using NON lethal techniques.

Do you think japan will join this International collaberation to learn what we need to know, non lethally?

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Aussieooo,

Do you think japan will join this International collaberation to learn what we need to know, non lethally?

Australia's programme seems to be a big white elephant, and I have no idea what the actual objectives of it are purported to be, although on the surface it looks like a political propaganda vehicle.

Depending on how serious it is, Japan might participate, but if the objectives of the Australian programme do not include objectives in relation to contributing to the optimal utilisation of marine resources including Antarctic whale stocks, then it is certain that Japan will have no choice but to continue it's own programme.

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Davidtoko

All responsible advanced nations that utilise marine resources analyse biological data from their fisheries to determine this. Whaling nations apply the same concepts to whale stock management. Get over it. Whales are not "special".<<<

Are speaking of the same responsible adavanced nations, that almost devoided our planet of whales under the management of the IWC before the balanket ban on commercial whaling?

If Japan has its way, and a return to commercial whaling is undertaken, again under the IWC regulations for whale management by "responsible " nations, and the many other nations that come on board, which WILL happen, eager to reap the financial benefits.

With every nation wanting to take as many whales each for profit, and history showing that it is impossible to regulate the species and number taken, how do you think history will be any differnt this time?

Whales only have a few babies in there lifetime, and by the time we see history is repeating itself, it will be too late!

How do you know things will be differnet, you are pro whaling, you must then agree every nation (and there will be many) wanting to cash in, has as much right as japan to the whales.

History does not lie......Japans fisheries, government and ICR do lie/

Me im not taking the chance with a nation that continually lies...and has a long history of environmetal abuse. I want to leave something for my grandchildren....so should you!

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History does not lie! japan does

I want to leave something for my grandchildren and so should you!

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Aussieooo, slow down, and "david" is fine.

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I just wonder if j-whalers violated australian EEZ or others EEZ, why do not these countries indict to international court of justice? I think majority of countries think antarctic water is in high sea, not belong to any particular countries.

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I want to leave something for my grandchildren and so should you!

Yeah, I do. But don't you know that whales mate and produce offspring? Don't you know that if we kill a few whales, more will be produced to replace them naturally, through the power of the sun?

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David tokoyo,

Why do you think its a white elephant?

Japan says it kills for "science", here is an opportunity to learn to study whales without killing them, legitimate scientists will be lining up for the chance.

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Aussieooo, a main goal of Japan's research is to contribute to the body of knowledge we have about how to sustainably utilise whales. If Australia's research excludes or precludes that goal, then Japan is not going to be especially interested.

Japan is not studying whales "for the hell of it", even if Australia is.

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Depending on how serious it is, Japan might participate, but if the objectives of the Australian programme do not include objectives in relation to contributing to the optimal utilisation of marine resources including Antarctic whale stocks, then it is certain that Japan will have no choice but to continue it's own programme<<<

I dont understand your post. You say japan kills whales for science, if there is a way, and there is.. to get the science without the kill....wouldnt japan be happy to come onboard. But you say Australia must contribute to japan idea of utilizing the whale santuary whale population, in other words continuing to kill whales in the santuary....

What for...if the non lethal science is there?

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Why would japan need to kill whales in the santuary, or anywhere else if there is an international program using non lethal methods in place?

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Oh I see, So what does japan REALLY want to kill whales for?

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Aussieooo,

Why would japan need to kill whales in the santuary, or anywhere else if there is an international program using non lethal methods in place?

Because if the "international program" (Australia's baby) doesn't produce the results required for contributing to the knowledge of whale stock management, then Japan will need to get the data itself.

All power to Australia. If they can produce the same data as Japan, then well done, and I will no longer support lethal permit whaling.

Australia's programme, other than being a propaganda vehicle at this stage, has produced nothing - not even a single peer reviewed research paper! So it's too early for Japan to suddenly believe that it's true.

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Aussieooo,

Oh I see, So what does japan REALLY want to kill whales for?

Japan's interest in whales is as a resource for exploitation. The science of that resource exploitation is what they are working on.

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David toyoko

This site is sending some your answers way late and i have missed them ...just got your answers to my questions.

All your answers say that Japan knows whichspesies can be hunted and which can not.

You say that the governing bodies including cites...have no idea of the whales numbers and are polictally motivated, that what japan says is gospel.

Do you really believe the propaganda from Japan:? Against the judgment of the governing bodies.

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Australia will NEVER contribue nor agree with Japans whaling in the whale santuary under the "guise" of science, under a moritorium on whaling. And neither will the majority of countries around the world.

So, I guess Japan will not join the program for non lethal methods.

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Aussieooo,

Do you really believe the propaganda from Japan:? Against the judgment of the governing bodies.

The "propaganda" is from the IWC's Scientific Committee, not only Japan, although in some areas Japan is the only nation with any data.

As for CITES, you only have to consider that the Antarctic Minke whale has been listed by CITES to see that this is true. The Antarctic Minke is not endangered, there are hundreds of thousands of them, according to the estimates of the IWC. So yes, sorry, but CITES is full of crap when they say that every whale species is "endangered"

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Why does japan want to continue killing whales?

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Because in Japan, whales have long been regarded as a valuable source of food.

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See ya Aussieooo :)

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In future all people are facing shortage of food. Pro-whalers do not want to exterminate whales because of one of precious foods. Scientific research is now important to prevent extermination for future.

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I think thats really funny you say that, it is a well known fact, even via japanese officals, that less than 1% of japans [population, mostly older folk eat whalemeat anymore. Well known and true fact that japan has at any one time thousands of tons of whalemeat, un wanted in storage .

Despite the fact that whale meat has up to 10 times the mecury and toxins considered "safe" levels by japans own minestry of health, japans goverement distributes whalemeat for school childrens lunches in an attempt to encourage the eating of whalemeat again?

And david toko says "Because in Japan, whales have long been regarded as a valuable source of food"

Whalemeat is a tax payer funded power play by the japanese government.

There is NO good reason to kill whales, they are not feeding the impoverished, finding a cure for cancer...nor is the meat particaly liked by the Japanese.

david, you have NOT given ONE good reason why Japan should continue to kill whales, or push for a return to commercial whaling where history shows, whaling can not be regulated, nor penalities enforced...nor could we stop the barrage of other nations greedily taking whales of all species and numbers for profit.

History shows, should japan have its way....we will see and end to the whales in our oceans, our marine eco system will collapse. An eco system thats supports our lives.

History has shown japan has NO respect for the environment or the animals we share it with.

we have to END there power play with the rest of the world.

Japan has NO right to change my world and that of my grandchildren.

Moderator: Aussieooo and davidattokyo, you two are just going around in circles posting the same things over and over again. Please move the discussion along or take a break and allow others to contribute.

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And so now the SS will announce that they have been magnanimous but they are "forced" to go back to risking life and limb.

What a crock.

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ca1 SS raises money to go out and try to stop the slaughter of thousands of whales, some endangered. they do what they raise the money for. Those that donate, do so because they agree with the cause, and see there donated money is saving the lives of whales.

For whatever reason, you may not agree with them, that is your choice. But dont undermine the choices of others.

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Wow! Welcome to the davidattokyo and Aussieooo show.

Scientific research is now important to prevent extermination for future.

Kwatt - So, scientific research is hunting? Japan researches how many whales they can kill before the resource becomes endangered? They currently kill 1,000 whales a year. It takes 5 years for a minki whale to reach maturity to reproduce. You don't have to be a mathematician to work out over a five year period the population of minki whales would be reduced by 5,000 whales. In the following five years there would be 5,000 less whales to reproduce, yet Japan would take another 5,000 whales from the already diminished population. Can you see a pattern forming? Any elementary student can work out this little problem. Yet, Japan has to kill 1,000 whales a year to prove this? What a load of bovine exrement!

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I heard that about 1000 minki whales are killed a year but minkis will produce more offsprings to fix the population, acutually minki's popolation increase every year according to IWC data. If minkis don't produce offsprings, yes, you are right, then their population will dinimish.

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The best way to stop the whaling is to blow the boats out of the water, >yeah , that would learn them a lesson

Go ahead. Who's stopping you? We can all read about the anti-whaling fanatic arrested for murder. Probably by the Australians at that.

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OssanAmerica - Why be selective? Why organise law enforcement to arrest >them and not the other party?

Very simple. One side is breaking the law. Acts of aggression and violence on the high seas falls under piracy and terrorism under the laws of all nations as well as the UN. The other party, regardless of how much people may dislike it, aren't breaking any law. So how do you arrest a party which is not breaking any law?

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Litigilicious, diplomatilicious -- great no matter how you slice it.

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You don't have to be a mathematician to work out over a five year period the population of minki whales would be reduced by 5,000 whales. In the following five years there would be 5,000 less whales to reproduce, yet Japan would take another 5,000 whales from the already diminished population.

That would be assuming that all minki whales give birth in the same year, don't have another baby for 5 years and all the non-sexually mature whales are hunted first. Bad logic.

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Aussieooo - Thanks for your input, mate. It's great news about Australia's non-lethal research plans. It will help the diplomatic efforts. Well, it would if the Japanese public heard about it! Somehow, I think the tax-payer funded pro-whaling lobby will play this way, way down.

Don't be discouraged when bloggers "spit the dummy" and refuse to talk any more. It happens whenever you get him on the ropes. It happened to cooeecobber yesterday, too!

Hey moderator, I was enjoying the exchange between david and aussie!

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Hey Nipandtuck,

Thank you for your support with the pro whalers...we gotta stick together and bring on a few truths hey...lol.

Whaling in the whale santuary, under a moritorium on commercial whaling is indefensible, as you can see from the attempts at justification above.

While japan may be using loopholes in the IWC's scientific agenda, that does not make it morally right to continue commercial whaling.

Japan is though breaching the antarctic treaty by refueling in the pristine southern ocean which is breaking the law.

David , im gueesing from tokoyo, was not even aware the whaling is subsidised by the japanese tax payers, but as I said before even if the government made them aware, japanese culture is not to question authority...so nothing would change no matter how they really felt about it.

kwatt,

Are you aware, whales only produce 1 offspring every 2-4 years? Yup, didnt think so, in your equation, have you considered all the other nations wishing to come on board should japan be successful in overturning the ban on commercial whaling?

If japan is allowed 1,000 whales per year, plus the thousand more they take in other places yearly, everyone would be entitled to the same amount...right? We have to be fair.

Have you also added all the other whales Japan kills around the globe yearly, besides the southern ocean?

have you added the whales Norway, iceland the faroes...and other nations presently take?

Keeping in mind the low birthrate of whales, you would also need to add the whales killed naturally every year through shipstrikes, beaching, pollution, nets, bycatch and global warming...estimated to be roughly 20-30 thousand per year. So with at least 4, maybe more nations whaling...and the other death causes, how long do you think the whales could hold out?

Remembering if the ban is lifted....many more nations will get in on the money train?

So are you going to still tell me whaling is ok? Oh and dont forget their is NO WAY to humanely kill a whale or dolphin at sea?

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Hiya disillusioned,

Your spot on there mate....

Japan has publicly changed the reasons for the hunt on many occassions, First it was culture/tradition, japan has no culture of whaling 2000 miles from home in a factory harpoon fleet. There true culture is that of a few small coastal villages, taking 1 or 2 whales per year from a small boat offshore. Im sure no one would have a problem with japan's true cultural whaling...if it was as its always been.

Incidently, japan actually refused permission for a local village to hunt its annual whale....hypocracy at its highest! They may have recently changed their position on the local village due to media pressure, but i havent heard.

japan also refused its aboriginal people there thousands of years old tradition of hunting salmon, due to international embarrassment,i believe they are now allowed a small catch....again hypocracy!

WE LIKE TO EAT WHALE!

Less than 1% eat what, mainly older folk who gained the taste during the food shortage after the war, there are stockpiles of uneaten, unwanted whalemeat in storage, some is sold for pet food. Mostly the younger japanese do not like like the taste of whale, and there is so much better stuff and more plentiful to eat. AGAIN, not a reason to kill so many whales, and forcefully persist in the reinstatment of commercial whaling!

Whales eat our fish!

Ummm, no, very few whales eat fish. Again, wrong.....

So what is the real reason Japan continues the push to kill more and more whales???????

Is it political power postering? if so, for a small island with a huge population and almost ZERO natural resources, japan is playing a VERY DANGEROUS GAME!

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Well summed-up Aussieooo.

The arguments for whaling are weak, to say the least! But the tactics of the paid lobbyists is to NOT address the kinds of points you raised. Instead they play a game of distraction, to keep the discussion away from these kinds of points. I must say, they do a very good job, and I have been drawn on many an occasion.

Although I'm extremely disappointed with the roll-back of the Australian's pre-election position, PM Rudd is at least a career diplomat. I believe he really does want to stop whaling, because there is enormous public support for such a position; they would not have made the pre-election promises if it were otherwise.

But until the whaling stops, I will continue to support Sea Shepherd.

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Hiya Cooeecobber, and HAPPY AUSTRALIA DAY!!!!!

Yes , i agree with you, and feel as much as rudd realizes the enormous public support for the shame of whaling to cease, I really do feel he is first and foremeost a businessman.

Whaling should be a morality issue, not a polital one.

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Aussieooo;

add the whales killed naturally every year through shipstrikes, beaching, pollution, nets, bycatch and global warming...estimated to be roughly 20-30 thousand per year.

Then shouldn't those causes of whale death, which each of us contribute to and causes the death of a far greater number of whale and other animals, be getting more public pressure and outrage from SS, Australia, and the public in all countries? Rationally speaking, anyone truly concerned about whales and the ocean should be using their energy addressing the big killers like these, but they focus on whaling because;

1) Posturing against "the Japanese" gives an easily identifiable enemy

2) That works even better when the enemy is "foreign" and thus easier to demonize, especially in a country with an iffy history vis-a-vis racism against Asians.

3) It's easier to demonize someone else for a graphic and visually-striking way of killing whales, rather than looking at how your own lifestyle has a far greater impact.

which are the reasons why Rudd has taken this on, and why the public laps it up and supports groups like SS.

For the record, I am an opponent of whaling (for the harm it does Japan), but I'm a bigger opponent of hypocrisy (note spelling).

Whaling should be a morality issue, not a polital one.

It is political for the reasons I mentioned, but it should be a legal issue, not a subjective "moral" one.

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Aussieooo,

There is a commercial whaling "moratorium" right now, there is hardly any whale meat to be eaten. That's why so few Japanese people are able to eat it.

thousands of tons of whalemeat, un wanted in storage .

And that's all. Thousands of tons is nothing, compared with the huge mountains of beef and pork in storage (lots of it from Australia).

The amount of whale meat in storage is also less than Australia's quota of critically endangered southern bluefin tuna that it catches just to fatten up and send to Japan for ridiculous profits.

Disillusioned,

It takes 5 years for a minki whale to reach maturity to reproduce.

No, it takes longer than that. You should read Japan's research to get more accurate knowledge. But anyway...

In the following five years there would be 5,000 less whales to reproduce, yet Japan would take another 5,000 whales from the already diminished population.

If you have 500,000 whales, with a natural rate of population growth of 2-4% each year, you have at least 10,000 NEW minke whales born every year. At least until the population hits it's natural carrying capacity, prior to which density dependence effects kick in and the population finds somewhat of an equilibrium, give or take some thousands of whales each year.

Even if there were only 200,000 minkes, 2% increase each year is 4,000 whales.

So, you're complaining about 1,000 (more than Japan takes) which is a quarter of that, and thats in an extremely pessimistic case where there are only 200,000 minkes instead of 500,000.

I'm simplifying things, but I think you should see that you are worried about a problem that does not exist.

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Davidtokoyo, I guessing the part where you said, because of the moratorium, there is not much whale meat to be had in japan.

It is now quite obvious to me now you do not live in Japan. You also had no idea the whale hunt is funded by tax payers dollars!

I have a girlfriend who works in japan (tokoyo and other cities:, and has done for many years.

She finds whalemeat always available in some shops, and quite a few times, the packages are reduced in price. She has asked a few store owners, why it not available in more stores, no demand for it he says. he only keeps a small amount for 1 or 2 regulars....and the story is the same everywhere. That is the reason the Japanese introduced whalemeat in school tuck shops, and are pushing whale meat burgers.

You would know that if you lived in japan, i also find it funny you say that as even the japanese officials admit, there is, and has been for a long time, only a very small market for whalemeat, less than 1%.

I agree with you about the all the Tuna sold to Japan, our tuna quota is much lower than Japans (why is that), and the Japanese pay HUGE prices. But then again, we dont grant ourselves thousands of tons of EXTRA critically endangered tuna, way above our quota for scientific purposes as japan does...and got there quota halved in the courts for there deceit.

UnagiDon

I dont know where you hail from, but im glad your on the side of the whales.

You should look at the web regarding the massive efforts people from all over the world are putting in to reduce pollution, tackle global warming,the is even a massive push for the USA to stop using their sonar in areas where whales may be present, as they fear this may be contributing to whales beaching themselves. Do you see the crowds of people on those beaches desperately trying to steer the whales back out to sea? And ship strikes? How does the world go about ridding the oceans of ships and boats? It just isnt going to happen.

So, with these other critical impacts on the whales, some we can change, others we cant, why would any nation, continue to kill whales without any reason whatsoever, and add to the their demise? And i urge to check the lengths japan is going to , to have whaling commercialized again, check the history of whaling, under the protection of the IWC, the whales were almost hunted to extinction by many nations, there can be no sure way to ensure quotas and species types are adhered to.

SS, is a huge advocate for everything that impacts on the health of the oceans, and ALL the creatures in it, have you checked on that?

I support SS 100 %, they do what they raise the money for...they save whales, 20 years of diplomatic talks have achieved nothing.

I will also add that i do NOT support the corperate money making machine greenpeace, or many others.

And ship strikes? How does the world go about ridding the oceans of ships and boats? It just isnt going to happen.

And Australians have no larger a racist element than other countries, and WAY less than some, but if you dont believe me, check the net, look up the japanese network groups, then look up the australian ones or the UK or USA. While your there, check the japanese immigration policy, then check the others, you may just have to retract your comment there.

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