politics

Biden urges Japan, China to lower tensions over air defense zone

43 Comments
By Stanley White and Elaine Lies

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The undoing of every totalitarian nation that has ever challenged the United States has always been underestimating American resolve. The People's Dictatorship of China is no different.

0 ( +9 / -9 )

Me too!

0 ( +2 / -2 )

The news media in Japan seemed to be seeing Biden as some kind of a savior. Actually, he does not have much power in handling such a delicate situation. So I can see him passing off the buck and not taking sides on this issue.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

edojinDec. 03, 2013 - 05:41PM JST The news media in Japan seemed to be seeing Biden as some kind of a savior. Actually, he does not have much >power in handling such a delicate situation. So I can see him passing off the buck and not taking sides on this issue.

The VP's position is indeed limited. Limited to adhering to the U.S, position that China may not change the status quo by force and that the Senkakus are covered under the US-Japan Mutual Defense Treaty. This has been and continues to be the US. position and it most certainly takes Japan's side. China is even complaining about it. To constantly repeat the obvious fallacy that the "US is not taking sides" is an example of the under estimation of US resolve I speak of.

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

China is the aggrieved. Japan is the blatant arrogant aggressor and bully. America's advice to Japan is to pipe down. Now Abe and his thugs are spinning numerous stories about how supportive America is with its wrong doings. Since everything is now secret Abe can sing whatever tune he wants ensuring a chorus from his Yakuza politicians.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The Global Times, just like any other Communist party-controlled news outlet is only used as a tool to fire up the nationalism in China. It's the CCP's indirect way of saying "kiss our boots or go to hell, Biden". Such a message interestingly never comes from the Chinese government directly. But always through their state-controlled news media.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

OssanAmerica@ The United States will be its own undoing then, a totalitarian regime (Obama regime) undoing itself, hahahaha!

edojin@ Yeah, Biden's a muppet!

China like America can change anything that it jolly well wants. Japan when the US military leaves our country will be able to do what we jolly well want!

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

The dictatorial regime of the People will not be tolerated by the free will of the free people's of Middle Earth. Americas (North, South or Latin) will has always been the undoing of Evil throughout the World. Although we supported Saddam Hussein calling him "Our Tyrant", as we supported Pinochet and even train the "secret police" in the School of the Americas at Fort Brag. We supported Papa Doc and Baby Doc and also trained the Ton tons. We were the back bone behind every despot dictator throughout South and Latin America. And the legacy of "the only good Indian is a dead one" still holds true, while the history of Jim Crow and racial inferiority rings like the bells of South African Apartheid. Why do we see ourselves as a modern version of the Roman Empire. Remember the last days of the Empire. Remember the rise of Nazi Germany. Remember the rise of the KKK. As a country that is made up of the worlds population; we think of ourselves as being better than thou.

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

@Tiger Obama a regime? Last time I checked he was elected twice by democratic means. I think you're talking a lot of nonsense when not finding a proper argument.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

I am for the dictatorship of the People; instead of the dictatorship of the rich.

-7 ( +1 / -8 )

Ah, just think. After the secrecy bill has passed we will hear nothing about this. Only what the j-gov want us to hear. What a great country where 99% of the population don't give a shit? I guess manga and escapism are much more powerful than reality. がんばて にひんじん!

5 ( +8 / -3 )

The U.S needs to make Japan sit down with China and work out a deal with China over defusing the dispute over the Senkaku / Diaoyu islands. This situation is a direct result of Japan`s stubborn refusal to negotiate

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

At this point it's pretty clear how this is going to play out. The US Has sent a clear signal that China can do what it wants as long it doesn't fire a shot and all it will get from the US is condemnation and an occasional gesture of support for japan. As long as China does not fire the first shot, the US will do effectively nothing. That way it can weasel out of it's defense obligation to Japan. China is fully on board with this and will act accordingly. What you will see in the next few years is defacto control over the region going to China with Japan having control in name only. It's clear that Abe can do little about it as he does not have enough support from the US or his own people. This 'no first shot policy' is not going to accomplish much. Unless a red for military action line is drawn, China has already won.

4 ( +9 / -5 )

“This latest incident underscores the need for agreement between China and Japan to establish crisis management and confidence building measures to lower tensions.”

hmmm.... this sounds like he's just saying, "work things out, you two guys". Where is the unconditional rah rah support for Japan against the evil invading enemy China?

Told you so.

0 ( +8 / -8 )

"Joe Biden called on Japan and China to find ways to reduce tensions"

Or, you two pixies knock it off.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

It’s pretty clear that Biden follows exactly the prepared scripts as usual - the double “Rs” = reassurance and restrain when it comes to Japan.

The Japanese Gov. should not try to make out of Biden’s political and diplomatic rhetoric as if it is the next big thing in terms of American’s position in Asia.

If one looks both American’s position and Japanese one over the illogical Chinese ADIZ, one can see there is subtle difference, yet a big implication. Japan vehemently demands China to retract its claim from the very beginning to this point, but the US only states that it does not recognize it and will ignore it.

Obviously the US does it for reasons, a. the US knows ahead that there is little chance that the authoritarian and assertive China will be back down from it. b. by staying in that ground and satisfying both Japan and China in certain degrees, the US can have more options and rooms to play in a long run and does not trap itself into the coroner. c. the US needs Chinese markets and cooperation while protecting its huge investments there.

Some people blame and criticize the US and Obama’s admin for not synchronizing its steps with the ally, this is just not fair. To begin with, Obama has lots on his plate right now, on the international front, he has the problematic Iran, Syria and Egypt in Middle East region which can explode and spill over the instability to other pars of the world in any time. Domestically, funding for the federal government expires on Jan. 15, and the negotiations with Republican law makers go nowhere at this point.

Putting all the piece together, it might be the good time for Japan to reassess its long term strategy with its neighbors. Beating the drum or Beating the dead house on those tiny isles may get it go not too far.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

I believe Mr Biden discussed with Obama before he meet JP leaders. It's clear his words in the news conference really hints: The US don't trust both of CN and Abe admin, anyway some diplomatic sort of lip service is understandable. The US army stay in JP not only watch CN but also watch JP! Also it seems Biden trust SK more than JP because he call for cooperation between JP & SK in Japen and this is to request JP to do something friendly first instead of SK.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Then it's much clear from US's implication over the new air defense zone...

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Remember just few days ago that Japan told reporters that US is going to force China to abandon its ADIZ?

Well, how come nothing came out of Biden to confirms what Japan said?

1 ( +6 / -5 )

chucky3176Dec. 03, 2013 - 09:33PM JST

“This latest incident underscores the need for agreement between China and Japan to establish crisis management and confidence building measures to lower tensions.”

hmmm.... this sounds like he's just saying, "work things out, you two guys". Where is the unconditional rah rah support for Japan against the evil invading enemy China?

Told you so.

yosunDec. 03, 2013 - 10:39PM JST

I believe Mr Biden discussed with Obama before he meet JP leaders. It's clear his words in the news conference really hints: The US don't trust both of CN and Abe admin, anyway some diplomatic sort of lip service is understandable

iWorldDec. 03, 2013 - 10:54PM JST

Remember just few days ago that Japan told reporters that US is going to force China to abandon its ADIZ?

Well, how come nothing came out of Biden to confirms what Japan said?

You guys are assuming everything too much from what's been said in public. The real negotiation with China is still going on underneath the surface, and you do not see IT.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

This situation is a direct result of Japan`s stubborn refusal to negotiate...

Why should Japan negotiate? Chamberlain "negotiated" the fate of the Studentenland and look what happened. There is no appeasing a dictatorship that is trying to expand it's territory through intimidation. Japan and the US have learned that lesson. China, apparently, has not. At least not in public

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if discussions are being held in private. But how does China back away from this situation (or Japan for that matter) without loosing face? I can't figure that out. Painting themselves into a corner? I worry this will end badly. I hope ANA and JAL stay out of the area or do file flight plans. Putting civilian aircraft into the middle of this is just asking for a tragedy.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Huh. Biden urges Japan and China to lower tensions. But the US flying B52's and sending out assets to aid Japan has actively increased tensions, so isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? You can't punch someone in the face and tell them not to get angry. I'm sorry, that's a bad analogy.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

“Japan Airlines and ANA Holdings, however, are uneasy about flying through the zone without notifying China’s civil aviation authorities,” and when China creates a little incident in the zone I’d bet most of their customers will disappear. China has the upper hand, you see the more noise Japan and the US make the better for China. It is in fact irresponsible for a government to force its own commercial airlines to go against safety of the people, and the US realized this. A government which does not see the welfare and safety of its people first should not be running the country. If it is not because of non-interference policy, China can easily get rid of Abe by causing Abenomics to fail. Falling exports and a surge of Yens should do it but the timing has to be right. It’s too bad that China is only reactive and not proactive.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Since Obama has no spine, Japan and South Korea are going to have to smack China down like the punks they are. China is nothing and never will be anything on the regional or world stage. They need to be stomped back down into their box and the lid nailed shut.

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

US has thrown its long-time ally Saudi Arabia under a bus over Iran, abe, you will be next

1 ( +3 / -2 )

But it added: “Yet when Tokyo keeps pissing off almost everybody in the region by its attitude toward its wartime history, it would ultimately cost the United States more than it would gain from backing a country that still honors those whose hands were red with American blood.”

It's called getting past the past. Holding on to it hasn't done China any favors.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

All China will get is speeding up the arm race in the region. Civilian airlines may comply but military activities will increase in all countries.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

“It's called getting past the past. Holding on to it hasn't done China any favors.”

It’s called to forgive but not forget. That’s what the history lessons are for. Those who never learned from the past tend to repeat it, and those who whitewashed the past and used the past to provoke others are even worse. Think about this, if it is only China holding the grudge then you can say it is for the domestic audience but S Korea is also in it with China. Believe me two countries can’t be wrong together.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

flowers,

It becomes quite clear that China does not value long term friendship. It has switched or abandoned its friends when it is convenient or useful to do so. If you notice in any Chinese media, when Japan provided the $6 billion in ODA to China in the late 70's to build and moderize their infastructures, only the few communist goverment members knew at the time that Japan contributed greatly to rebuild at the time a primitive China, but these Chinese leaders took the credit. In the late 70's to even today, Chinese goverment have censored and never publicly told their citizens that Japan help rebuild their airports, cities and facilities. Only the negative propaganda news of Japan was told to their citizens.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

sfjp330, I don’t see the link between the ODA and the current situation. Let me ask you this, which country is Japan’s largest trading partner? Isn’t it China? So, Japan has benefited from the relationship many folds over. Besides, I only heard about $220 million “soft loan” from Japan. Both sides benefited from each other. And, friend doesn’t stab friend in the back. I heard this in the news, one day before Japan nationalized the islands, there was a discussion between both leaders and Chinese leader asked Japanese leader not to do it, but Japan went ahead with it anyway. Is this what you so called friends?

0 ( +2 / -2 )

flowers Dec. 04, 2013 - 06:21AM JST I heard this in the news, one day before Japan nationalized the islands, there was a discussion between both leaders and Chinese leader asked Japanese leader not to do it, but Japan went ahead with it anyway. Is this what you so called friends?

Why don't you ask the U.S.? The U.S. has a historical responsibility for the dispute over Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands. In 1972, when the administrative power over Okinawa was reverted to Japan, Senkaku/Diaoyu was included.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

flowers

I don’t see the link between the ODA and the current situation.

Really? Because some sources have this figure at around 1 Billion dollars per year.

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/09/28/japan_sends_china_12_billion_in_aid_every_year

So China is happy to take the money, but also happy to continually criticise Japan over it's wartime past, or ratchet up tensions in the region? That, to me, is hypocrisy.

Let me ask you this, which country is Japan’s largest trading partner?

And does China benefit from this trade too? Or is it only Japan?

It’s called to forgive but not forget. That’s what the history lessons are for. Those who never learned from the past tend to repeat it, and those who whitewashed the past and used the past to provoke others are even worse.

Most Japanese people I know and have talked to are extremely proud of their Pacifist Constitution. They know why it's there, and they seem very determined to ensure that it stay. The irony of your last sentence just cannot be understated within the context of this conversation, because that's all China does. It's even directly quoted in the article above from a piece of Sate sponsored journalism. It's really pathetic.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

“So China is happy to take the money, but also happy to continually criticise Japan over it's wartime past, or ratchet up tensions in the region? That, to me, is hypocrisy.”

I don’t see how it can be “hypocrisy” or you mean to say that since China took the loan China should shut up and bow down to Japan knowing full well that Japan created all these mess. Read the news from all sides more and you will see that China only reacts to the issue that Japan created. Don’t you find it strange that since China is Japan’s largest trading partner and not the other way around, it would be more reasonable for Japan to use diplomatic means instead of accusing and provoking China at all costs unless there is a hidden agenda in all these. You are right about “most Japanese people” but those select few who are in power are the roots of the problems. Remember that most people think that secrecy law is bad for the people and yet it was passed. What comes next is the change in the constitution and I can bet that even against the people’s will it will be done according to those in power. It is called democratic in the making. And, I have no idea what you said in your last sentence. Or, you meant to say both China and S Korea are both wrong about the atrocities so they should forget about the past and just accept whatever the “victim” said.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Bidet is a stupid name it sounds like a French toilet or a friend of John Kerry.

Moderator: Don't ever post rubbish like this again.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Tamarama Dec. 04, 2013 - 07:10AM JST

Biden trip is just cooling down the tension. However there is not much more he can do . Japan has increased her AIDZ since 1972. Back in 2010, it has further increased her AIDS further into South China sea despite the protest from Taiwan and South Korea.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/11/27/world/asia/overlapping-airspace-claims.html?ref=asia

Japan is smaller than Montana state of US. Japan AIDS is five times larger than Motana. Posters and media are over reacting thecurrent AIDZ issue. Only extra hassle of PRC AIDS is identifying the plan and route of planes before entering the zone.

Really? Because some sources have this figure at around 1 Billion dollars per year.

You have to differentitate between humanitarian aids and development aids. Development aids has commercial interest as I posted before. It is not free handouts like humanitarian. Let 's say Japan gave soft loan to PRC for building airport. During the construction stage, Japanese firms will dominate the contract. Such as Taisei contractor, Nippon Steel and Japan airport consultant etc. The bucks will go back to Japanese engineers, architects and accountants. When the airport is operational, Japan will share the landing fee. In the long term, Japan is not only getting back the initial investment, It will also get the stable income from oversea assets.

There are many nations which is many times poorer than PRC. They are desperately needed for infrastructure. However they do not get the amount of development aids like PRC from Japan. One thing is clear that they have no growing potential market like PRC. Let's say Japan build the airport at small African nation, how many passengers will fly after the airport is ready in the future? Therefore Japan will not get any return back.

Japan has technology. China has market. When the capital has added, there will be explosive growth. The following is the success story of Japanese car maker.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/business/view/nissan-struggling-to-satisfy-china-growth

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Did he woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/04/world/asia/biden-in-japan-calibrates-message-over-tensions-with-china.html?ref=china

0 ( +1 / -1 )

flowers

Japan created all these mess

How did Japan 'create all this mess'?

Or, you meant to say both China and S Korea are both wrong about the atrocities so they should forget about the past and just accept whatever the “victim” said.

Nope, I know China and South Korea are not wrong about those things. Just like all of the other countries that suffered Japanese troop atrocities are not wrong. But does it need to be brought up every time we discuss Japan? Is it even vaguely relevant to what this thread is about?

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

I like that Bloomberg's China bureau editor called China's censorship akin to Pre-Nazi self censorship. Very apt description of China, but I would call it full on.

Of course, China raided their offices shortly thereafter.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

He acts like a that kind girl in front of Biden. How can I say to Japanese?!

0 ( +2 / -2 )

How did Japan 'create all this mess'?

You mean the territorial disputes between Japan and its neighbors?

Japan indeed created the mess by refusing to honor the various WWII peace treaties/agreements it promised to comply and even now it is still reclaiming territories it lost to the Allies in WWII in those peace treaties/agreements. For example,

Article 8 of the Potsdam Declaration (terms of surrender for Japan) says:

"The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we (US, UK, China and Russia) determine."

And the Japanese Instrument of Surrender says:

"We, acting by command of and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese imperial General Headquarters, hereby accept the provisions set forth in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, China and Great Britain on 26 July 1945, at Potsdam, and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which four powers are hereafter referred to as the Allied Powers.

The 1972 China-Japan treaty says:

"The Government of Japan fully understands and respects this stand of the Government of the People's Republic of China, and it firmly maintains its stand under Article 8 of the Potsdam Proclamation."

San Francisco Peace Treaty

Article 2 (c)

Japan renounces all right, title and claim to the Kurile Islands...

Article 3

Japan will concur in any proposal of the United States to the United Nations to place under its trusteeship system, with the United States as the sole administering authority, Nansei Shoto south of 29 deg north latitude (i.e. including the Ryukyu Islands but excluding the Diaoyu/Senkaku islands)...

And the origin of Article 3 of the San Francisco Peace Treaty can be traced back to the following agreement made between the US and China during the Cairo Conference:

"During a private dinner with the Chiangs on the evening of November 23, President Roosevelt asked Chiang China's intentions regarding the Ryukyu Islands. According to the memorandum written by the Chinese side (Roosevelt's special assistant Harry Hopkins was present but did not apparently take notes), "The President referred to the question of the Ryukyu Islands and enquired more than once whether China would want the Ryukyus." To this, Chiang reportedly replied that "China would be agreeable to joint occupation of the Ryukyus by China and the United States and, eventually, joint administration by the two countries under the trusteeship of an international organization (UN trusteeship for decolonization of conquered colonies that was established in 1945 and as described in the San Francisco Peace Treaty)""

And the US also played a part in creating this mess. We all know that the US has kept encouraging Japan to challenge the various WWII peace treaties/agreements drafted by the US government itself and to reclaim territories it lost to the Allies in WWII including the Kuril islands, Ryukyu islands and Senkaku islands. Some of you might believe that the US is ready to go to war with China or Russia in order to help Japan to expand. However, I don't think that's true.

The Americans knew that their core interest in east Asia is to keep Japan as its protectorate and its military bases in Japan for as long as possible. If the US loses Japan as its protectorate, it simply means it will lose most of its military bases and much of its influence in east Asia.

And the Americans knew that the only way to keep Japan as its protectorate for as long as possible is to encourage Japan to challenge the various WWII peace treaties/agreements and reclaim territories it lost to its neighbors. By doing so, not only that the Americans can ensure that Japan will remain helpless and isolated in east Asia and totally dependent on the US, they can also sabotage the sovereignty of their WWII allies and cold-war rivals China and Russia.

However, I don't think the Americans will go to war with China or Russia just for that purpose.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Thank you Guru29, but I’d like to add to it below. Tamarama, you probably know that the islands dispute has existed for many decades already and there was a verbal agreement between the two leaders to shelve the issues for the future generation to solve. However, Japan broke the status quo by nationalizing the islands using some ridiculous reasons for doing so. Japanese leader ignored Chinese leader’s request not to do it. After nationalization of the islands Japan turned around and claimed that there has never been a dispute. Think about how ridiculous that is. Since Abe came into power there were many verbal attacks and accusations of all sorts. He tried to bring in Vietnam, Mongolia, India, Brunei, Malaysia and the Philippines to his side, just to name a few. He even went to Europe to find support but was rebuffed. He raised the tension in SE Asia by accusing China to be a major threat in the region. But so far the only country that is willing to go along is the Philippines that’s because Japan provided substantial gifts and financing. The number of government officials who went to Yasukuni Shrine increased significantly over previous years in an effort to taunt the neighbours. Abe’s picture with a war plane numbered 731 was obviously designed to ridicule China. Even S Korea couldn’t stand Japan for trying to cover up the vicious past. Think about it, Japan is the centre of all these problems. “But does it need to be brought up every time we discuss Japan?” Let me tell you this, the wound cannot be healed if Japan keeps pouring salt over it. Some people say Japan has apologized many times already, but you should know that those apologies were not approved by the official cabinet and were all later downgraded or retracted by other Japanese officials. No sincerity at all. Now back to the most recent event, the Chinese ADIZ. You must know that this is the first time that China has set up the ADIZ, many countries have theirs for decades already. Especially Japan its ADIZ was established as early as 1969 and later expanded its scope many times to only 130 kms toward China’s coastline and covers most of the airspace of the East China Sea. And, now Japan considers expanding it again. Japan did not ask China when it established or expanded its ADIZ. Now do you think Japan has the right to say anything about the Chinese ADIZ? It’s all in the political game that Abe is playing.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

I just read from another poster in JT that currently Japan requires the civilian airlines from Taiwan to submit "flight plan for just passing through" the Japanese ADIZ.

Well, if that is true, then Japan has lost ALL it legal and moral ground to protest against PRC's ADIZ? What a hypocritical and double-standard position that Japan is taking. No wonder I heard many people in diplomatic circles in New York UN are laughing behind their backs.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Guru29

Yes, we've all read that information before, many times. Unfortunately, some of it is irrelevant, and the remainder simply does not specifically support the argument in the way you want it to. Supposed notes from a private dinner conversation as evidence? Really? The fact is, that China can provide little in the way of evidence to convince anyone rational they they have a good claim on those islands (including the information you have provided). They officially ceded (yielded) them to Japan in the late 1800's to quash any dispute over them, and during the Mao Years even listed them as Japanese Islands in Chinese School Atlases and on domestically made maps.

Those islands were officially owned by Japanese citizens until a couple of years ago when the Japanese Government bought them to prevent the idiotic Tokyo Governor, Ishihara, purchasing them for Tokyo and turning it into a Dog and Pony Show. Previously owned by Japanese, still owned by Japanese. Nothing has changed. The notions of this being 'Japanese Provocation' is childish.

We all know that the US has kept encouraging Japan to challenge the various WWII peace treaties/agreements drafted by the US government itself and to reclaim territories it lost to the Allies in WWI

Do you have any evidence to support this?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

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