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China complains to Japan over Nagoya mayor's Nanjing massacre denial

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i was kind of surprised to see so many people commenting on this issue. china does this everyday. china is the biggest bully keep watching as they increase their presence in asia.

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Hey YuriOtani guess what? Your country isn't more less special then any other country. Sorry to burst your patriotic bubble. Everybody in the world thinks Japan needs to grow up and own up to their war crimes and denials. But Japan keeps thinking that they're "perfect and they didn't do anything wrong, etc".

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@peanut666: so Japan is justified in not facing up to its appalling war crimes in the 1940s because China tried to invade in 1274 and 1281? Please tell me you're joking. We're talking about Japan and Japan alone here. When are you people going to get it? Japan has already 'apologised' to China. China is not part of the equation here. But the millions Japan murdered are and it's these victims that Japan should atone for for its OWN SAKE, not as part of some international 'I'll apologise to you if you apologise to me first' childish prattle with China. This isn't about that. Japan has a duty to these murdered victims outside of any rivalry with China. As a democratic country which likes to pride itself on pacifism and peace, Japan is shaming itself deeply.

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So many cruel things done during wars, both sides. Organised by a only a few people with high ego and many followers Unfortunately Japan through these people did nasty things in the past also to other neighbours. I was told they once tried to wipe out Korean culture not so long ago when they occupied Korea.

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I think it is funny to mention that China tried to invade Japan twice in 1274 and 1281 and thousands of Japanese died. I don't understand why China doesn't apologize for that. That is the historical reasoning behind Kawamura and Ishihara views. It is old history. Nanjing happen 75 years ago. The relationship between China and Japan is relevant. If you want fairness then both sides have to be fair about things. That is why a committee between China and Japan has to be formed to formulate a version of history both sides can agree on. Until that happens I don't think there will be any apologies given.

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It's true. Japan needs to stop the selective teaching of history, but then again China does too. I believe history based upon agreed facts not hyperbole is the only solution to this problem. Once the foundation has been set then the apologies will flow.

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But in the end it's not surprising that Ishihara and others deny stuff like that.

How many Japanese do you know who have been to Mimizuka or have even heard of it?

Japan needs to stop the selective teaching of history.

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"How many times does Japan have to apologize for WWII? "

That's a good serious question. I would say once a year formally, plus including at least one or two pages of summaries of the atrocities in high school books, and not allowing public figures to make absurd denials. If you think about it, that's not really much is it?

You have Hiroshima, Nagasaki, a ceremony in Tokyo. Why not even a five minute ceremony for the overseas victims of japan's aggression.

But, yeah,formal apology once a year, and an end to leading politicians denying history. How is that so hard.

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@peanut666 - even 50,000-60,000 is still a massive amount of people who were assaulted, raped, brutalised and butchered. The best way to handle the situation is for bigots like Kawamura and Ishihara to put a stop to their racist evil denial hate speech, or if this is still beyond those idiotic buffoons, then it's up to the electorate whose interests they were voted to represent to stand up and demand they be removed from power. Denial of Nanking and other such atrocities is disturbingly close to the mainstream and treated with no criticism in Japan, no surprise when the school books deliberately omit them and visits to the Yasunkuni Shrine are seen as acts of bravery and patriotism instead of evil. It's up to Japan to examine its OWN war crimes and atone for them. The relationship between China and Japan is irrelevant in this case, no matter which side uses the atrocities for their own propaganda purposes.

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@nigelboy - That is my point exactly. It is difficult for Japanese to believe in China's version of history of Nanjing because the numbers seem excessive. Many argue that the Japanese destroyed the evidence, if that is true then the Chinese numbers are unsubstantiated. The John Rabe argument seems to support a lower number. He was a German businessman who is best known for his efforts to stop the atrocities of the Japanese army during the Nanking Occupation and his work to protect and help the Chinese civilians during the event. The Nanking Safety Zone, which he helped to establish, sheltered approximately 200,000 Chinese people from slaughter during the massacre. John Rabe gave a series of lectures in Germany after he came back to Berlin on April 15, 1938, in which he said, "We Europeans put the number [of civilian casualties] at about 50,000 to 60,000."

What I believe would be the best way to handle the situation would be for Nanjing and Nagoya to form a task force to study the historical evidence and come up with something that will satisfy historians both in China and Japan. The study could last decades, but at least it is a step in the correct direction.

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I'm quite aware of the actual population of Nanking before IJA forces were moving towards the capital. This is not what we're debating. We're debating the 200K that remained during at the time IJA arrived and the subsequent increase a mere one month after during which time the mop up operation was going on. If in fact such large scale massacre was going on, there is no way in hell civilians would come near the city for it is like walking directly into a war zone. Would you go back if you heard gun shots? Would you go back if you heard any signs of chaos?

Actually you have no idea what people would do. The 200k who were there at the time of the IJA's arrival was far less than the actual number of citizens who had fled before the count, people who had fled because they were (rightfully) concerned about the Japanese Army's brutality. And yes, a large number returned as the atrocities reached their end, as many would when a city is their home, even if it is under occupation. And of course, the conscripts inflated the later number, so not EVERYONE returned. Those who did come back, did so to find relatives and friends and simply because they had nowhere else to go to. China itself was a fractitious society enveloped in civil war and chaos, where factionalism and tribalism was rife. These ability of these refugees to just disappear and assimilate into other parts of China would have been extremely difficult. Hence the return of a large number.

Rabe's diary did not indicate that he was a direct witness to IJA's atrocities. His diary indicates 5 cases of reported murders from a third person. His diary also indicated various crimes committed by refugees and Chinese forces.

Rabe was there and witnessed what the city of Nanking looked like following the massacre. He SAW for himself the aftermath of the destruction, murder and looting. So if Japan didn't commit this act of atrocity, who did? Did a meteor hit the city of Nanking while he slept? And his diary indicating crimes committing by refugees and Chinese forces... so you'll accept these accounts but not ones of the Japanese army's brutality? OK. You forget that the actions of the Japanese troops is what led to this vaccum which increased crime among the native population. Once again, what the hell was Japan doing in China? Not their country, had no right to be there. The arrogance of the self-proclaimed racially superior is mind-blowing.

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Onigome,

I'm quite aware of the actual population of Nanking before IJA forces were moving towards the capital. This is not what we're debating. We're debating the 200K that remained during at the time IJA arrived and the subsequent increase a mere one month after during which time the mop up operation was going on. If in fact such large scale massacre was going on, there is no way in hell civilians would come near the city for it is like walking directly into a war zone. Would you go back if you heard gun shots? Would you go back if you heard any signs of chaos?

Rabe's diary did not indicate that he was a direct witness to IJA's atrocities. His diary indicates 5 cases of reported murders from a third person. His diary also indicated various crimes committed by refugees and Chinese forces.

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War time atrocities occur in every war. Even the U.S. is guilty of that. I am not denying the fact that war time atrocities did not occur by Japan. I am sorry that your mom lived through that. What I don't agree with is the claims that China is stating where there are not proof that over 300,000 tortured and killed. There are many more eye-witnesses other than your mother who also agree that the Nanjing raid, even though it was terrible, did not occur according the the Chinese version. That's where the problem lies, that why the Nagoya (the sister city of Nanjing) mayor won't acknowledge it.

No, Japan definitely committed a massacre in Nanjing in 1937, even if the exact numbers of those who were killed are debated. The mayor won't acknowledge it, because he's a contemptible racist bigot who wants to keep whitewashing the past because he doesn't want to face up to the truth of what Japan did. If he inquired about the actual numbers killed, that would be a different story, but he flat out denied that the massacre even occured.

“I doubt that the Nanjing massacre happened, even though a conventional fight took place,” Kawamura said.

Oh by the way, why are you all of a sudden expressing sorrow over netninja's mother when a 2 minutes ago, you refused to even believe him

Face up to Japan's past - that goes not only for Kawamura, but nigelboy and peanut666 too.

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@NetNinja - War time atrocities occur in every war. Even the U.S. is guilty of that. I am not denying the fact that war time atrocities did not occur by Japan. I am sorry that your mom lived through that. What I don't agree with is the claims that China is stating where there are not proof that over 300,000 tortured and killed. There are many more eye-witnesses other than your mother who also agree that the Nanjing raid, even though it was terrible, did not occur according the the Chinese version. That's where the problem lies, that why the Nagoya (the sister city of Nanjing) mayor won't acknowledge it.

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@peanut666 My mother was there. Should have read my earlier posts. She's Japanese. We talked about it. It happened. There is a danger in speaking out. To step forward and reveal what happened could bring your family under fire. You can be bullied, denied fair employment, your children harassed.

This is much bigger than you and I. This is the express reason why these conversations don't get out of living rooms and into the public spotlight.

You have no idea. how far Japanese are willing to go to protect their family names. It goes all the way back to the Shogun era when whole families were decimated when they disagreed with the powers that be.

Those women in Korea and the Phillipines that were raped and used as sex slaves aren't lying. Multiple accounts and testimony clearly show a consistency of Japan's brutality. However you still missed the point. This is a hamster topic. Cry all you want, till the rivers flow over.

@peanut666 There is a HELL my friend. As sure as the "666" in your name, they are down there. Nanjing happened. You are obviously quite embarrassed about it. I feel for you.

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You weren't there and no one you know was there. There are plenty of facts and data accumulated by non-Japanese historians and witnesses who LIVED in Nanjing during the raid which PROVE that most of the numbers and stories given by the Chinese revisionists are in fact lies or exaggerated distortions. There are eye-witnesses who are still ALIVE who deny that any of those events were as extreme as reported. Are you saying that you want to make diplomatic ties with China based upon a bunch of lies and Chinese revisionist history? We are not talking about the Jewish Holocaust which occurred and have been proven by witnesses and documentations. We are talking about Chinese fabrication of history. In China they don't write about Mao's Cultural Revolution and how over 20 million Chinese starve to death. They write that the Dalai Lama is an evil murderer and want him executed. How can you believe Nanjing occurred when history books written by China are mostly distorted facts and full of political motivations?

Yet you dismiss the non-Japanese people who were there and who talked about the atrocities which had occured? Why is that? Link these non-Japanese historians and witnesses you speak of who deny what happened. And once again, China revising its own history and being an immoral murdering dictatorship itself doesn't change what Japan did in the 1930s and 40s. What the hell were they doing in China in the first place? And why are they trying to whitewash and deny the cold hard reality of their racist murder empire?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/01/world/asia/01china.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

Read what I wrote above. Just because the country you committed crimes against isn't itself a model of purity and virtue doesn't mean the crimes you committed against it didn't happen.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/01/world/asia/01china.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

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@NetNinja - You weren't there and no one you know was there. There are plenty of facts and data accumulated by non-Japanese historians and witnesses who LIVED in Nanjing during the raid which PROVE that most of the numbers and stories given by the Chinese revisionists are in fact lies or exaggerated distortions. There are eye-witnesses who are still ALIVE who deny that any of those events were as extreme as reported. Are you saying that you want to make diplomatic ties with China based upon a bunch of lies and Chinese revisionist history? We are not talking about the Jewish Holocaust which occurred and have been proven by witnesses and documentations. We are talking about Chinese fabrication of history. In China they don't write about Mao's Cultural Revolution and how over 20 million Chinese starve to death. They write that the Dalai Lama is an evil murderer and want him executed. How can you believe Nanjing occurred when history books written by China are mostly distorted facts and full of political motivations?

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The problem with the history of Nanjing is that some people WANT to believe that the atrocities happened according to how the Chinese revisionists want to portray it. There are MANY factual problems. The first are from eyewitness accounts of non-Japanese westerners who stayed during the Nanjing raid as well as numerous Chinese witnesses. Many claim not to have witnessed the level or atrocities or genocide as reported by the Chinese revisionists. Of course their were executions and rampant violence, no one is denying that it happens in every war, but to the level described there is no factual basis to the claims. That is why many Japanese have a problem with just bowing down to China and apologize. The military leaders who lead the raid on Nanjing have already faced military trial in 1946 and punished for war crimes committed. Even the Emperor has given apologies for war time atrocities. Does every person in Japan have to believe China's revisionist history? Of course not. Japan isn't a communist country and individuals can believe what they want to believe and speak freely about it. If China expects to be fascist about it they won't get that from Japan or from the U.S.

Japan murdered thousands in Nanking, civilians, women and children. There were many expats in the city, including Rabe, a Nazi, who witnessed the wholescale destruction and the horrific after effects. Why on earth shouldn't Japan have apologised? Like you said yourself, 'rampant violence and executions' were common. Japan had no business being in China in the first place and should be ashamed for what it did, instead of choosing the ignorant or willfull defiant route. Japan won't even teach why they did to their children in their schools. This withholding of information is strangely something they have with communist countries like China, weird isn't it? And they have the nerve to claim victimhood, because of the suffering in the latter days of the war, due to their racist murder empire falling to pieces?

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The problem with the history of Nanjing is that some people WANT to believe that the atrocities happened according to how the Chinese revisionists want to portray it. There are MANY factual problems. The first are from eyewitness accounts of non-Japanese westerners who stayed during the Nanjing raid as well as numerous Chinese witnesses. Many claim not to have witnessed the level or atrocities or genocide as reported by the Chinese revisionists. Of course their were executions and rampant violence, no one is denying that it happens in every war, but to the level described there is no factual basis to the claims. That is why many Japanese have a problem with just bowing down to China and apologize. The military leaders who lead the raid on Nanjing have already faced military trial in 1946 and punished for war crimes committed. Even the Emperor has given apologies for war time atrocities. Does every person in Japan have to believe China's revisionist history? Of course not. Japan isn't a communist country and individuals can believe what they want to believe and speak freely about it. If China expects to be fascist about it they won't get that from Japan or from the U.S.

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The increase in population from 200k to 250k was announced on January 14th, a month after the occupation. Unless people of Nanking can take roll call in a single day, the numbers were researched on a periodic basis. Hence, it was a gradual increase. As for Rabe, he himself did not witness any killings done by IJA.

The initial population count conducted by the Japanese army when they captured the city was actually below the actual population number and didn't account for the numerous people who had fled the city before it finally fell into Japanese hands. The increase in 1938 came from the return of the citizens who fled before the Fall of Nanking and in the last minute Japanese army conscripts who were posted to the city. I think you need to read Rabe's diaries. He witnessed the devastating scenes of monumental destruction and death in Nanking following the widespread pillaging, looting and murder committed by the IJA AFTER it happened. You're discounting what he said because he wasn't right beside those Japanese soldiers at the very moment they were disembowelling women. Yet you dismiss him and yet believe the tales the 'revisionists' create, jingoistic denying bigots who who were born long after Nanking.

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"I'm not interested in the propaganda version of the events"

So Nigelboy, in your "Japan can never be wrong" world, accounts of Nanking written by Japanese are the truth, but accounts of Nanking written by Chinese and third-party witnesses are propaganda? Is that it? Why aren't the accounts written by Japanese also propaganda? Were you there when those Japanese sat down and wrote their accounts? Why are you so sure they were writing the truth?

It's so bizarre to read the perspective of somebody who can never admit Japanese have ever done anything wrong in their entire history. And all this nitpicking about what happened in Nanking in Dec. 1937 obscures the bigger picture: Japanese armed forces, without adequate justification, invaded China and occupied its capital city. I'm sure people like the Nagoya mayor and the Tokyo governor would claim that Japan was trying to save China from the Chinese or something stupid like that, but Japan was not anointed by anybody to sort out China's problems at the time.

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Oginome,

The increase in population from 200k to 250k was announced on January 14th, a month after the occupation. Unless people of Nanking can take roll call in a single day, the numbers were researched on a periodic basis. Hence, it was a gradual increase. As for Rabe, he himself did not witness any killings done by IJA.

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nigelboy

All right nigelboy about the 50km dispersal of iodine tabs to be given to households in case of a nuclear accident. You were right and my translation was wrong. It is for future Nuclear Accidents, They are completely ignoring the Daiichi accident for this.

http://ajw.asahi.com/article/0311disaster/fukushima/AJ201202250005

I know it's off topic but I had to tell nigelboy that I was wrong.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

We should move on by admitting the fact that happened in the past even though there're a varieties of opinions over countries. Otherwise, Japan could not make any relationships with south east asian countries. These countries should be definitely majorities of countries leading the economy and the politics in near future. Assuming they should take a important responsibilities in near future, we need to develop relations with such countries. If do so, consequently, it will bring the benefit to Japan.

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You are correct. But as I stated previously, I'm not interested in the propaganda version of the events because if these sort of heinous acts were happening in rampant, there is no way in hell that population within the safety zone would increase during the occupation. It simply does not make sense.

Yes, it does make sense, the population increased AFTER, not DURING the six week massacre in 1938, when it became clear that that a halt had occured in the atrocities. You deniers like to cling onto this population increase later to bolster your flimsy arguments, but all this illuminates is the deniers' desperation and refusal to face facts. Zoning in on this alone, and ignoring everything else, such as the eyewitness testimonies from the numerous people, including a Nazi who was from a country allied with Japan, had nothing to gain from revealing the truth and was in fact, eventually punished when he returned home.

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Targeting and brutally murdering pregnant women and children can't be excused with the 'soldiers disguised in civilian clothes' explanation

You are correct. But as I stated previously, I'm not interested in the propaganda version of the events because if these sort of heinous acts were happening in rampant, there is no way in hell that population within the safety zone would increase during the occupation. It simply does not make sense.

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Let me get ths straight. As I have alluded to before, There were Chinese soldiers disguised in civlian clothes. They used civilians(women and children) as human shields and torched nearby civlian facility to cause confusion. As a result, there were civilians killed by IJA but the fundamental difference is that IJA did not specifically target civilians. On the flip side, aerial bombings conducted during the 1944~1945 by U.S. in Japan mainland specifically targeted civilian population as I noted in the Tokyo aerial bombing above. Why is the former labeled as "massacre" while the latter isn't?

Targeting and brutally murdering pregnant women and children can't be excused with the 'soldiers disguised in civilian clothes' explanation. Even if they used these civilians as human shields, what on earth were the Japanese army doing killing these civilians in the first place? It was a massacre, simple as, one that went after the most defenceless.The aerial bombings in Tokyo were of course awful, but America was fighting a war against Japan that Japan itself had instigated. What was Japan doing in China anyway in the 1930s? They had no right to be there... oh wait, they were instigating war and believed the rest of the world was theirs for the taking, and had absolutely no respect for the autonomy or self-determination of other nations.

I'm quite aware of this. It's called a double standard.

The responsibilty for the aerial bombings can rest with the Japanese government since it was they who had started a war that led to the Tokyo bombings in the first place and even when it was clear Japan was losing and its own citizens were being killed, STILL refused to surrender. Disgusting.

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I was making the wider point that IF the mayor of a major Japanese city is inclined to regard the extreme brutality and savagery displayed by Japanese soldiers against civilians in Nanking (irrespective of what the Chinese themselves did, the Japanese also behaved in a deplorable manner, as is well documented) as a "conventional fight" then it helps explain why Asians all over the continent were stunned and horrified by the "conventional" manner of Japanese warfare. I'm sure you still don't get it.

Let me get ths straight. As I have alluded to before, There were Chinese soldiers disguised in civlian clothes. They used civilians(women and children) as human shields and torched nearby civlian facility to cause confusion. As a result, there were civilians killed by IJA but the fundamental difference is that IJA did not specifically target civilians. On the flip side, aerial bombings conducted during the 1944~1945 by U.S. in Japan mainland specifically targeted civilian population as I noted in the Tokyo aerial bombing above. Why is the former labeled as "massacre" while the latter isn't?

OK, nigelboy, at least you're willing to admit that Japanese soldiers at Nanking did something bad (because any act that can be labeled as a "massacre" cannot possibly have been good). That's downright miraculous coming from you. As for your standard gripe about victor's justice, that won't ever get much of a hearing outside of Japan, no matter how many thousand more messages you write here.

I'm quite aware of this. It's called a double standard.

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The issue here is Japan's whitewashing and refusal to take ownership of its past, which shows in the censored textbooks saga, the politicans who openly visit places such as the Yasukuni Shrine to pray for the souls of war criminals and sadists, and end up being feted for doing so by the public and media, and the mayors and governors who come out with massacre denial and don't lose their jobs or face criticism or uproar from the voters whose interests they were elected to represent (and will probably get re-elected again, like in Ishihara's case).

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War is evil. But, it's a sad reality. Maybe if China will start by admitting that it has stolen/raped/murdered millions of Tibetans then Japan and other may follow in admitting their crimes. China is not the only victim in past wars. In fact, China has been an aggressor for a very long time. Look at N. Korea, N. Vietnam, and most of South Asia. If you count numbers of people murdered in World History , China has the most in total of people slaughtered by it's own gov't. But this does not excuse any other country for their crimes. All crimes should be accounted for.

It's ignorant for any nation to refuse to account for its war crimes just because the country in which said war crimes were committed happened to develop into a dicatorship and carried out atrocities of its own. Why don't people understand this? The millions of Chinese murdered by Japan in the 1930s and 40s have nothing to do with the millions China went onto murder later on. Japan doesn't get to say 'No, put your own house in order before we admit to wrong doing', Japan's war crimes are Japan's responsibilty. How incredibly tasteless and short sighted to use another country's wrong doings to deflect from and justify your own atrocities.

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We can debate about whether or not it occurred, but can we debate about the callous cruelties of war? Surely, you people must realize, if we, ourselves, delve into the past in such a manner, of trying to decipher it, to understand it.. without grasping the moral & ethical compass of the day, then surely, we are merely fueling the debate.. misunderstanding leads to anger, fear, hatred, and eventually conflict. My words may seen, meaningless, benign banter to some, nonetheless, is it really in the interests of this nation, or the nations involved, to allow this debate/misunderstanding to continue for another generation? Put simply, if people do not open their hands.. how can we talk? therein understand, or even contemplate one another, on mutual ground.. fists.. will lead to conflict.. surely, a mature, human being, who has read the passages of history, however short, realizes, that though history does not repeat in its entirety, in context, the emotions, the human psyche always does.. so I ask, are we going to let our children, the children 21st century, raise fists against each other.. once more?

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I am half-Japanese and half-Chinese. I grew up in a multi-cultural home (Japanese, Chinese and American) and whenever there were debates about these things I used to always support Japan. I used to say it was 70+ years ago, they have already recognized there involvement, etc. However, the longer I live in Japan the less I want to apologize for this country.

I am in my mid-twenties and most of my Japanese friends have no clue about their own history. When I ask them to read articles about Nanking, Imperial Japan or postwar Japan they are shocked. They have no idea that these things transpired because they never learned it. Germany does not hide from the fact that the Holocaust happened. In fact, they are overly cautious of it. I learned about every American war and we learned about the casualties, the reasons for and against the war, and whether the war was justified. George Santayana once said "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." I hope for Japans sake that they will finally accept the past and learn from their mistakes.

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The fact that you so clearly rely upon movies for information about the world around you accounts for your posting style and answers a question I was about to ask. Thus, stting behind a computer keyboard in the USA and typing in CAPITALS doesn't give what you are typing anymore weight or plausability and, you'll discover, is fairly transparrent.

People can type using capital letters or use Morse Code, but it doesn't change the fact that Japan hasn't faced up to its past.

Let me respond to your earlier post 'Aunty'

Most Japanese understand that they can't be held responsible for the actions of Japanese imperial soldiers which occured during wartime 60 years ago. A brief google on the subject will also show that crimes of the past have been apologised for on numerous occasions by several Japanese leaders.

Of course Japanese today aren't responsible for the war time atrocities of their grandparents' generation, just as the Germans of today aren't. But, nevertheless, both countries each have a RESPONSIBILTY (look, more cap locks!) to take ownership of their history and teach their youth about the abominable crimes which were committed and the millions who were murdered in the name of racial superiority. But Japan refuses to do this and instead prefers to dwell pseudo-obliviously in a bubble of selfless victimhood. Playing the victim and the martyr, refusing to take ownership and educate its youth. Disgusting. You can't take the good your country has done and throw out the bad because it's inconvenient and blemishes the perfect image you wish to have of yourself. It's funny, Japanese people feel pride and collectively take credit for their stunning post-war economic miracle, even those who weren't even born then, but when it comes to the 30s and 40s, 'Nope, no thanks, everyone from that era is dead, no need to dig it up'. Such hypocrisy. The visits to the Yasukuni shrine continue. Elected officials like Kawamura, educated men, keep spewing their racist bile, and the country largely remains ignorant or else defiant of what happened in the war, except of course when it comes to the atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki! This is the one time when the Japanese let go of their 'get over it' attitude and tell everyone how these victims should never be forgotten. Well, Japan, neither should the victims of Nanking. Or do you think those non-Japanese lives are worth less?

The Japanese approach is not one of denying, rather, it's more a grim acceptance and desire to move on. You could learn something from this, too. It's also unwarranted for any foreigner to point a finger at the Japanese as a whole and demand that they should be doing or thinking this or that.

The 'Japanese approach' is certainly one of denial. Grim acceptance applies to Germany. Unwarranted for any foreigner to point a finger? No, we all certainly can, and should. These millions of victims who were brutally and sadistically murdered by the Japanese are killed again every time a politican visits the Yasukuni Shrine, a new textbook which whitewashes history is released, and scumbags like Kawamura open their mouths to deny, keep their jobs and face no condemnation from the Japanese public.

It's for the Japanese nation as a whole to decide how best to deal with their own troubled past.

And what a great job they're doing. They'll certainly face criticism from outsiders, considering their crimes were mostly carried out against non-Japanese. It's a Pan-Asian issue, not to mention the countless Western POWs were also tortured and killed.

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Nanjing happened. The Japanese of THAT period in history were brutal cold blooded killers with a deep hatred of anyone Non-Japanese. You considered yourselves to be the divine race and that the rest of us were devils.

Aunty American. Before Pearl Harbor, Japan was trying to negotiate peace and then suddenly attacked Pearl Harbor. Sorry if you got a taste of your own medicine even if you were trying to AS ONLY YOU BELIEVE organize a surrender.

No one knows the horrors of war until they've seen it with their own eyes.

Aunty Amerikan in order to change the hearts of men one must get to the core of a man. We have to sit down and honestly debate what we've seen, what we've heard in order to understand why we believe what we do. Deep down, even in all you denials of this event, you KNOW the horrors that man is capable of.

War is a beast, a monster in itself, it possesses the hearts and minds of men to commit heinous acts. Man is capable of committing such acts. Regardless of race. There is no other creature who has spilled as much blood as man has.

It's not that the World is out to punish Japan. China is not going to send you a bill for the damages even if every one stood up and admitted to what happened. We, Americans, aren't proud of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. We did what we did not to destroy Japan or Japanese but to bring an end to an evil that had ravaged the hearts of men. If we were evil we would obliterated Japan. It doesn't matter where it stemmed from.

We know what Japan did in Nanjing. You can't erase the past. You WERE moving away from it though till you sat by and let Kawamura here destroy the work of many ambassadors who worked to mend ties with China. Ishihara is trampling on the work of peace makers who would bring an end to hostilities and promote stability to an already unstable region.

I don't need to provide you any more evidence of Japan's desire for blood and war than Kawamura's statement that only stokes the flames of hate. This is a nation that has citizens who carry knives around and stab people randomly.

But hey Aunty Amerikan, you gonna go see Christian Bales new movie?? I'm sure Kawamura and Ishihara won't. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets banned like The Cove

I can hear the audience already whispering. *translated J to E: "OH SNAP!!! Is that you grandfather?" "Yeah, Hollywood even got the uniforms right"

@Patty Cake Did you know about that movie? It's called The Flowers of War.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1410063/

All you non-believers can buy your tickets now. You'll walk out of the theater mad.

@Patty Cake Y'all just mad. Because today, you suckers got served. Served. Served. Served! Served!

When Japan starts something, America always finishes. Here it comes, Big Budget Hollywood.

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nigelboy

I believe I gave you that answer at Feb. 24, 2012 - 01:11AM JST To repeat, "Notice how when the losers of WWII does it, it automatically is labeled as "massacre"."

So nigelboy what would you call it? An unfortunate incident? The fact is it was, is and alsways will be a massacre of civilians and unarmed soldiers AFTER they had surrendered. You are alluding that the bombing of Japan is also a massacre, there is a BIG difference they hadnt surrendered to their enemy and expected to be treated accordingly. The bombings where a sad reality of the war and took place during the fighting. Much of this massacre and the many many other massacres the Japanese where responsible for took place AFTER the fighting and AFTER their enemy had surrendered and that is what makes it all the more terrible

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Massacres and terrorism are what other countries do.

Well, massacres are something Japan definitely did.

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"Notice how when the losers of WWII does it, it automatically is labeled as 'massacre'."

OK, nigelboy, at least you're willing to admit that Japanese soldiers at Nanking did something bad (because any act that can be labeled as a "massacre" cannot possibly have been good). That's downright miraculous coming from you. As for your standard gripe about victor's justice, that won't ever get much of a hearing outside of Japan, no matter how many thousand more messages you write here.

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A very important point, nigelboy.

Massacres and terrorism are what other countries do.

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"Uhhm. You brought up the question MASSWIPE remember??? Let me remind you."

I was making the wider point that IF the mayor of a major Japanese city is inclined to regard the extreme brutality and savagery displayed by Japanese soldiers against civilians in Nanking (irrespective of what the Chinese themselves did, the Japanese also behaved in a deplorable manner, as is well documented) as a "conventional fight" then it helps explain why Asians all over the continent were stunned and horrified by the "conventional" manner of Japanese warfare. I'm sure you still don't get it.

But please, go on with your "whataboutery" deflections about Chiang Kai-shek and so forth.

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WWII actions of the Imperial Japanese Army are acknowledged by many ordinary Japanese. The whole subject - including Nanjing - strikes at the heart of their national identity and notions of "pride, honor and shame" which, although largely absent in the West, are integral concepts of the Japanese psyche.

No, they're not acknowledged. Look at the school text book controversy which still rages on, the visits to Yasukuni, a climate in which deniers like Kawamura can come out with massacre denial and not lose face. Where's the pride, honour and shame there, and where the hell was it in Nanking on December 13, 1937?

DENIAL.

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Earth to nigelboy: Disagreeing with Kawamura's words does NOT equal accepting China's version of events, except in the eyes of people who can never, ever fight fault with any actions taken by the Japanese. So Japanese soldiers committed inexcusable atrocities at Nanking in December 1937--why the need to deny this terminology and classify what happened there as a "conventional fight?"

I believe I gave you that answer at Feb. 24, 2012 - 01:11AM JST

To repeat,

"Notice how when the losers of WWII does it, it automatically is labeled as "massacre"."

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"How many times does Japan have to apologize for WWII?"

And here we go again with the "whataboutery" nonsense among the subject changers. Why are you bringing up the apologies issue? This is about the mayor of a major Japanese city arguing that what is almost universally regarded as an atrocity by Japanese soldiers in Nanking against civilians was nothing more than a conventional fight.

It would be no less deplorable if the mayor of a major American city attempted to reclassify the My Lai massacre of 1968 in Vietnam as a conventional fight (it certainly wasn't; American soldiers committed war crimes, and it's outrageous that Lt. William Calley walks free today). But you know what: No mayor of a major American city would be STUPID enough to opine on a topic so completely irrelevant to his/her job responsibilities. The mayor of Nagoya should spend more time worrying about how the strong yen will impact Toyota sales.

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Wow, nigelboy, what a total non-surprise to see you attempting to deflect attention away from the war crimes committed by your beloved Japanese against Chinese civilians in Nanking by bringing up the (in this case) completely irrelevant topic of wartime air raids on civilians

Uhhm. You brought up the question MASSWIPE remember??? Let me remind you.

"I mean, if what occurred in Nanking in December/January of 1937/38 was just a "conventional fight" in the eyes of many Japanese, then what exactly would constitute something worse than that?"

Speaking of which, the Japanese were "innovators" in that area too, pummeling by air the civilian populations of Shanghai, Wuhan, and Chongqing from 1937 onward. Many residents of Chongqing were living in caves by the time the war ended 8 years later thanks to non-stop Japanese bombings.

LOL. You bring up Shanghai in which Chiang Kai Shek conducted aerial bombing on economic zones which was denounced by U.S., British, and French???? Chongqing bombing was specifically for "military facilities" and additionally to avoid U.S. , British, facilities stationed there. This is why it took so long due to poor visilibility because of fog and cloudy days in Chongqing.

"爆撃目標は「戦略施設」であり、1939年4月の現地部隊への指示では、「敵の最高統帥、最高政治機関の捕捉撃滅に勤めよ」とあり、アメリカ、イギリスなど第三国の施設への被害は避けるようにと厳命されていた。しかし重慶の気候は霧がちで曇天の日が多いため目視での精密爆撃は難しく、目標施設以外に被害が発生する可能性があった。2 http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%87%8D%E6%85%B6%E7%88%86%E6%92%83

There were Chinese soldiers disguised in civlian clothes. They used civilians(women and children) as human shields and torched nearby civlian facility to cause confusion. This is well documented in the diary of Japanese soldiers who were there. Hence, the difference here is that IJA did not specifically target civilians while the aerial bombings in Japan specificially targeted civilians.

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How many times does Japan have to apologize for WWII? Even the Emperor has apologized. The Nanjing trials are already over and China accepted the outcome. I think the Mayor is correct.

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WWII actions of the Imperial Japanese Army are acknowledged by many ordinary Japanese. The whole subject - including Nanjing - strikes at the heart of their national identity and notions of "pride, honor and shame" which, although largely absent in the West, are integral concepts of the Japanese psyche.

But Nanjing has become so much more than a mere attrocity. It has become a devisive issue cynically manipulated by those who seek to perpetuate the divide between two neighbouring Asian identities.

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I can see that I gave the "subject changers" the opening they were looking for. There's a word for your kind of behavior: "whataboutery" Go ahead, write about anything except the atrocities committed by Japanese soldiers against the civilians of Nanking.

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Well. China claims 35 million died at the hands of IJA. 96 months war @35 million equals 365,000/month. Nanking lasted a couple months with only 300,000 so there were approximately 117 Nanking like massacres that occured during the conflict. So I ask why Nanking massacre is the most famous event. (sarcasm)

Japan murdered millions, that is not something which the Chinese fabricated, even if the exact number is still being debated. And Nanking being the most famous event doesn't mean there were other massacres just because they're not as well known. Auschwitz was the most famous death camp, yet millions also perished in Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor. One of the reasons the Nanking Massacre is more well known is due to the expat population who resided in the city, and who saw the atrocities for themselves.

The point here is to dispute or as Kawamura stated, "As the disagreement over the incident is like a sting in a throat, I’ve proposed to hold a debate on it" is not a DENIAL. It is in fact "facing up to history". On the contrary, simply accepting the China's version of events is indeed a DENIAL. It is in fact not "facing up to history".

Let me get his quote for you again.

“I doubt that the Nanjing massacre happened, even though a conventional fight took place,” Kawamura said.

This is DENIAL.

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"simply accepting the China's version of events is indeed a DENIAL"

Earth to nigelboy: Disagreeing with Kawamura's words does NOT equal accepting China's version of events, except in the eyes of people who can never, ever fight fault with any actions taken by the Japanese. So Japanese soldiers committed inexcusable atrocities at Nanking in December 1937--why the need to deny this terminology and classify what happened there as a "conventional fight?"

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I mean, if what occurred in Nanking in December/January of 1937/38 was just a "conventional fight" in the eyes of many Japanese, then what exactly would constitute something worse than that?

How about bombing non-stop your SE Asia commonwealth territory without regard to the civlians there and calling it "XX Massacre" with the death toll and responsibility going ledger on the Japanese side?

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I mean, if what occurred in Nanking in December/January of 1937/38 was just a "conventional fight" in the eyes of many Japanese, then what exactly would constitute something worse than that?

Um, how about...

Crippling your enemy to the point that they are no-longer able to fight in any serious manner, ignoring their attempts to arrange surrender so that you can drop two atomic devices on ordinary citizens with the intention of making a statement of intent towards the Soviet Union. THEN, promulgating the lie that the atomic bombings were necessary in order to save American lives.

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I mean, if what occurred in Nanking in December/January of 1937/38 was just a "conventional fight" in the eyes of many Japanese, then what exactly would constitute something worse than that?

Non-stop aerial bombings without regard for civilian population, perhaps?

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No, the tens of millions murdered by the Japanese, of which the Nanking massacre is the most famous event, is monumental.

Well. China claims 35 million died at the hands of IJA. 96 months war @35 million equals 365,000/month. Nanking lasted a couple months with only 300,000 so there were approximately 117 Nanking like massacres that occured during the conflict. So I ask why Nanking massacre is the most famous event. (sarcasm)

The point here is to dispute or as Kawamura stated, "As the disagreement over the incident is like a sting in a throat, I’ve proposed to hold a debate on it" is not a DENIAL. It is in fact "facing up to history". On the contrary, simply accepting the China's version of events is indeed a DENIAL. It is in fact not "facing up to history".

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This is about Japanese culture and it's part of the problem, but it's still no excuse. Believe it or not, but many Germans don't want to honor Hitler because he was evil and tortured millions of people to death based on their race. Being moral human beings, they see him as something to be ashamed of, not honored. Many people don't want Japanese war criminals to be honored for the same reasons, it's very simple. You don't honor extremely evil people. And you don't brainwash people in your country to believe you did nothing wrong in WWII. J-goverment continues the support of class A criminals with taxpayers money by annually sending 50+ goverment officials to pray and they represent millions of ordinary citizens of Japan. Noda should shut these people down.

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AuntyAmerikanFeb. 24, 2012 - 04:37PM JSTm5c32 Modern Japanese want to move forward with their lives. You really can't continue to blame them for the crimes of the past, especially not unless you are willing to face the crimes of your own nations first.

Are you sure? I doubt it. Over the last 66 years, the Japanese have created a fantasy version of World War II in which they were victims, their many atrocities never happened and the atomic bombs were war crimes, not key factors in halting the Japanese created horrors. After all, the women raped and men murdered were not Japanese. So what did it matter? This racist attitude influenced everything the Japanese soldier did. Prisoners often received particularly harsh treatment. Not just because they were non-Japanese, but mainly because the Japanese did not consider surrender an option. At the end of the war, before the atomic bombs were dropped, the Japanese high command sent orders to all commanders of prisoner of war camps to be prepared to kill all their prisoners on short notice, especially if enemy forces were nearby. The Allies became aware of this order, and when the Japanese finally agreed to surrender, the Japanese were told to rescind the kill all prisoners order, or else. U.S. stopped the mass killing of prisoners.

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Japan doesn't have to have to own up to anything toward China. Is China going to own up to the Tibetans? Of course not. They will claim that Tibet has always been a part of China and that they are all terrorists living there. I think the lies and the exaggerated history of Nanjing will affect emotionally disturbed people over the facts and real events that happened in Nanjing - not because they are seeking the truth but rather because they prefer drama over reality. The real DENIAL is the fact that such people can't handle the truth.

Why don't you understand? This is about Japan facing up to its OWN war crimes which left millions dead, it has NOTHING to do with what China is doing today to the Tibetans. The millions who were murdered by the Japanese in the 30s and 40s are Japan's responsibility and deserve to be remembered, not whitewashed and deliberately forgotten about. You're in DENIAL. This isn't about losing face to China or whatever you apologists are trying to say, it's about Japan not confronting its own past.

Nanjing wasn't monumental by the standards of the 1930s-40s or by today's standards.

The Nazi holocaust was monumental; The American atomic bombing was monumental. Nanjing was not.

No, the tens of millions murdered by the Japanese, of which the Nanking massacre is the most famous event, is monumental.

So many deniers and apologists on this page.

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sfjp330

In the years when Mao's ruled China, from 1949 to 1976, the Nanking massacre has been virtually ignored in official records. Why is that? Because it was formerly the capital of the Nationalists, the side fighting the Communists in China's civil war.....

Dude, if you're going to copy a whole body of text you might as well quote the original author: http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/02/23/why_did_china_downplay_the_nanjing_massacre

There. Did it for you.

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In the years when Mao's ruled China, from 1949 to 1976, the Nanking massacre has been virtually ignored in official records. Why is that? Because it was formerly the capital of the Nationalists, the side fighting the Communists in China's civil war, and very few Communists lived in Nanjing in the 1930s. Ever since defeating the Nationalists and unifying China in 1949, the Communists have claimed that they won both the Anti-Japanese War and the Civil War, and therefore have the right to rule China. If the Communist Party saved China from the Japanese during the War, then why did they do nothing to prevent the Nanjing Massacre?

The Communist Party have sidestepped during the Mao era by ignoring the Nanjing Massacre. Instead, they concentrated on highlighting the role that CCP forces played in beating the Japanese. For three decades after end of WWII, it was not possible to openly discuss the Nanjing Massacre in mainland China. In a similar way, much else was forcibly airbrushed out of Mao era debates on the War, such as Chinese traitors and the role of non-communist forces in beating the Japanese.

During the 1950s and 60s, Japanese delegations visited Nanjing, often with the aim of trying to improve bilateral relations. The Japanese visitors frequently asked whether they could visit sites relating to the massacre, of which there are hundreds dotted around Nanjing, mainly just outside the city walls. The Chinese refused. Instead, they took their guests to see the progress of Communist rule, such as the new bridge across the Yangtze River at Nanjing, or model state owed concrete factories. The Nanjing Massacre did not fit into Mao era ideas of a Communist led victory in the War. One feels that there was a deep feeling of shame that such an atrocity took place on Chinese soil. While the state wanted to ignore the atrocities in Nanjing, this does not mean that the masses wanted to forget.

In the early 80's, everything changed. Few years after the death of Mao, the Japanese education ministry published textbooks that whitewashed Japan's role in World War II, and changed the word "invade" China to "advance" into China. New Chinese leadership seemed to argue that if Japanese politicians and ministries were going to forget the war, then the Chinese needed to present evidence of Japanese atrocities committed in Nanjing and elsewhere in order to force them to remember. Nanjing Massacre museum was opened in the city just few weeks after the textbook crisis broke out, conveniently just in time for the anniversary of the Japanese defeat in August. Before 1982 virtually nothing was published by Chinese academics on the subject. Since that date, there has been an explosion of interest in the massacre.

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oginome

Something so monumental which is part of your country's history needs to be remembered

Nanjing wasn't monumental by the standards of the 1930s-40s or by today's standards.

The Nazi holocaust was monumental; The American atomic bombing was monumental. Nanjing was not.

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Didn't Kawamura ever hear of something called TPO? When saying or doing something in an official capacity, one should keep in mind the time, place and occasion. The mayor was insensitive. I can't believe the guy thought this was appropriate conversation with a sister-city comrade. He has a right to any opinion he wants, but he should also know when to keep his mouth shut. I assume he will have no trouble staying in office, though.

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Japan doesn't have to have to own up to anything toward China. Is China going to own up to the Tibetans? Of course not. They will claim that Tibet has always been a part of China and that they are all terrorists living there. I think the lies and the exaggerated history of Nanjing will affect emotionally disturbed people over the facts and real events that happened in Nanjing - not because they are seeking the truth but rather because they prefer drama over reality. The real DENIAL is the fact that such people can't handle the truth.

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No, I'm not sure the Japanese need to own up to anything, and certainly not at the behest of any foreign nation.

I'm pretty sure the Japanese need to face up to their own past simply for their own sake and stop living in denial.

Modern Japanese want to move forward with their lives. You really can't continue to blame them for the crimes of the past, especially not unless you are willing to face the crimes of your own nations first.

No, what China does nowadays, or 20 or 40 years ago has absolutely NOTHING to do with Japan's war crimes in the 1930s and 40s. These are Japan's crimes and it's up to Japan to honestly deal with them, the responses and behaviour of other nations are irrelevant in this context.

Furthermore this constant 'moral high ground portrayal' of the Japanese as ignorant, quietly fiendish devils is sickening. I swear that most of you have never even been to Japan - your just hear fame the flames for whatever personal reason you may have.

Not all of us have done that. It's possible for modern day Japanese to be pacifistic and still not know about their country's wartime past, you know.

Japan Today is truely an odd place to be at times. So much hatred towards the very nation it promotes. The Japanese are very proud of their pacifist constitution. Many ordinary Japanese that I have met are deeply embarrassed by their goverments occasional sabre rattling rhetoric and American-influence foreign policy. To continually suggest that they are in some way responsible, or at fault, for not wanting to carry the burden of the past is plainly senseless.

I certaintly don't hate Japan, and I agree there is much bashing on this site, but this is one area Japan can't be defended. Modern day Germans who weren't even born until decades after the war are aware of and recognise the importance of honestly dealing with their past. Something so monumental which is part of your country's history needs to be remembered. Like I said previously, if you want to discount all the bad stuff your country did, then you need to do the same with the good stuff. You can't just pick and choose.

So many people on this site are in DENIAL.

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Takashi Kawamura's nickname is 'salty'. He's just pouring salt on open wounds.

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Thomas Smith

After the war, all options were on the table including direct prosecution of the Emporer (who was directly responsible for war-like actions of the government at that time). It was decided the Japanese people/psyche would not allow execution of the supreme leader and god. Along with this, other "path of least resistance" type decisions were made as well. This is likewise why Nagoya and other cities were bombed/burned while Kyoto was left completely untouched.

Actually most of Americas allies (Australia, UK, NZ, etc) called for the emperor to be tried as a war criminal that he was. It was the US and in particular MacArthur that decided he was of more use in his position albeit with reduced powers than to stand trial.

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Thomas Smith

After the war, all options were on the table including direct prosecution of the Emporer (who was directly responsible for war-like actions of the government at that time). It was decided the Japanese people/psyche would not allow execution of the supreme leader and god. Along with this, other "path of least resistance" type decisions were made as well. This is likewise why Nagoya and other cities were bombed/burned while Kyoto was left completely untouched.

Actually most of Americas allies (Australia, UK, NZ, etc) called for the emperor to be tried as a war criminal that he was. It was the US and in particular MacArthur that decided he was of more use in his position albeit with reduced powers than to stand trial.

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Yes, and I've always blamed the American government for half the problems, because they were so busy hunting down the communists they didn't give a damn whether or not many war criminals were given back comfortable jobs running the country and were more interested in keeping certain 'experimental results' carried out by the Japanese instead of punishing them.

After the war, all options were on the table including direct prosecution of the Emporer (who was directly responsible for war-like actions of the government at that time). It was decided the Japanese people/psyche would not allow execution of the supreme leader and god. Along with this, other "path of least resistance" type decisions were made as well. This is likewise why Nagoya and other cities were bombed/burned while Kyoto was left completely untouched.

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m5c32

Not saying Japan gets off because of that. Certainly not. They need to own up, as a population.

No, I'm not sure the Japanese need to own up to anything, and certainly not at the behest of any foreign nation.

Modern Japanese want to move forward with their lives. You really can't continue to blame them for the crimes of the past, especially not unless you are willing to face the crimes of your own nations first.

Furthermore this constant 'moral high ground portrayal' of the Japanese as ignorant, quietly fiendish devils is sickening. I swear that most of you have never even been to Japan - your just hear fame the flames for whatever personal reason you may have.

Japan Today is truely an odd place to be at times. So much hatred towards the very nation it promotes. The Japanese are very proud of their pacifist constitution. Many ordinary Japanese that I have met are deeply embarrassed by their goverments occasional sabre rattling rhetoric and American-influence foreign policy. To continually suggest that they are in some way responsible, or at fault, for not wanting to carry the burden of the past is plainly senseless.

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China says 300,000 people were killed that year in an orgy of murder, rape and destruction when the eastern city of Nanjing

True and all --but how do you expect sympathy when YOU fail to recognize the murder, rape and destruction in Tibet, the oppression in Tian an men and, I dunno, the starvation of millions during the great leap forward. You you know, maybe allow those Wikipedia articles to be visible/readable in China.

Perhaps stop denying the poisoning of the countryside of China which contributes to the early deaths of tens millions of their own people by their own people? Then people would not feel like there was a bit of self-serving hypocrisy (you know, get the people angry at Japan, look away from the domestic injustice).

Not saying Japan gets off because of that. Certainly not. They need to own up, as a population. But China looks a little foolish feigning anger when their own citizens are currently mistreated and they have active concerted information blackouts regarding worse (more widespread) death and destruction committed by their own rulers in painfully inept attempts at command economies and culture.

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However it was the Communists which took all the weapons and food and forced people to stay in Nanjing knowing darn well what was going to happen when the Japanese military attacked.

Hmmh... In 1937 those Communists were probably hiding in some poor village far away from Nanking. It was mainly the Nationalist Party, or Kuomintang, doing most of fighting against the Japanese during WWII. The KMT clearly didn't do a good job defending Nanking, with many commanders and soldiers deserting their posts, leaving helpless civilians behind to be slaughtered and raped by the Japanese. However, they also fought bravely on many other occasions. Those Communists were doing very little against Japan aside from a few skirmishes, so please don't give them too much credit. On the other hand, the Nationalists really didn't help themselves very much. For instance they completely ignored a famine in central China, and their failure to provide any assistance literally drove thousands of starving Chinese into fighting for the Japanese against KMT in exchange for food. Basically, the Nationalists didn't care about the Chinese people back then (neither do the Communists today). But the incompetency and stupidity of the Chinese ruling parties doesn't make what Japan did in WWII against China and other Asian countries any less deplorable.

I said when China attacks Japan. Anyhow I tire of you and your attacks upon me and my country.

I don't think you need to worry so much about China attacking Okinawa. For some reason, many Chinese seem to believe that Okinawa doesn't belong to Japan, and that people in Okinawa are not Japanese but victims of Japanese invasion and occupation. It is beyond ridiculous.

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Readers, once again we ask you to keep the discussion civil.

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Historical documents that survived in other parts of Asia have shown that it was the Communists, forcing the Nanjing residents to stay there after the city was warned with fliers dropped by Japanese war planes telling civilians to evacuate

What? Pamphlets? So this is what you're going to use to excuse the massacre now? I wonder what the pamphlets said 'We, the Japanese army, are going to emabark on a rampage of unmitigated barabarism, torture, rape and murder on December 13 1937, so those of you Nanking citizens who do not wish to endure this should evacuate the city before this day '. Phew! Japan wasn't morally culpable after all!

Why are you trying to trying to take the spotlight off Japan's real refusal to not confront its past? We all know China is a murderous dicatorship, but its own excess and brutalities in treating its own people still doesn't change what Japan did. So because the Chinese suffer under their own government, the brutalities they endured under the Japanese doesn't really matter overall? Ugh. This is JAPAN'S problem, how IT treated people, not what China is doing.

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oginome, I stand with my country, what started out as a STUPID by a mayor is now being used to attack my country. You do not read too well, I said when China attacks Japan. Anyhow I tire of you and your attacks upon me and my country. This has gone beyond that fool in Nagoya. You make me feel like being a Japanese national. Japan has denied nothing except for a few fools but if Japan wants to make that into all Japanese then let it be so! I grow tired of you and will not answer any more comments from you.

No this mayor showed, due to the lack of public outcry after he said what he did, that Japanese people don't know/care of the murderous rampage their country embarked on, which reflects on the shameful and immoral government policy which has gone on for generations now. In a civilised society that faces up to and atones for what it does, fringe idiots like him wouldn't even dare utter such evil tripe, because they'd know an angry, informed public would pull him up on such awful behaviour. The fact that he feels comfortable enough to do so, along with the many others who've also displayed 'unorthodox' opinions over the years, shows that Japan has nowhere near faced up to its past atrocities.

Anyhow I tire of you and your attacks upon me and my country. This has gone beyond that fool in Nagoya. You make me feel like being a Japanese national. Japan has denied nothing except for a few fools but if Japan wants to make that into all Japanese then let it be so! I grow tired of you and will not answer any more comments from you.

So you found the facts uncomfortable and ran away into emotionalism and patriotism to compensate. Just like you do everytime you get into this kind of debate with someone.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

Get over it China. Geez doesn't any of China's history book mention how Mao Zedong's cultural revolution caused over 20 million - that's right 20 million of China's people to starve to death? And that is a CONSERVATIVE estimate. Doesn't any of China's history books say how Japan protected the Chinese people from being killed by the rising Communist party right at the end of WWII? And how it helped those people escape to Hong Kong and Taiwan? Of course not. Historical documents that survived in other parts of Asia have shown that it was the Communists, forcing the Nanjing residents to stay there after the city was warned with fliers dropped by Japanese war planes telling civilians to evacuate. Radio broadcasts and newspapers told all the civilians to leave. However it was the Communists which took all the weapons and food and forced people to stay in Nanjing knowing darn well what was going to happen when the Japanese military attacked. The Japanese military expected extreme Chinese resistance, so they came in hard and furious. But Mao's cultural revolution rewrote that part of history for today's youth. In fact if you talk to any person older than 40 years of age, they will tell you that before this "new" China history, many people did not feel this anger toward the Japanese. In fact if you asked anyone who lived during the time of Mao, you will find much agreement to the "real" version of history.

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oginome, I stand with my country, what started out as a STUPID by a mayor is now being used to attack my country. You do not read too well, I said when China attacks Japan. Anyhow I tire of you and your attacks upon me and my country. This has gone beyond that fool in Nagoya. You make me feel like being a Japanese national. Japan has denied nothing except for a few fools but if Japan wants to make that into all Japanese then let it be so! I grow tired of you and will not answer any more comments from you.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

Readers, please keep the discussion civil.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

oginome, I do not do things to win the approval of you and the other Japan bashers. The more you write, the more I will support my country. The Imperial Japanese troops killed a lot of Okinawa people and we have forgiven them. If some Japanese politician says something stupid we do not have a cow.

That's funny. Usually I'm called a Japan apologist by people on this site. So you're saying if a politican in Hokkaido said no one died in Okinawa during the invasion and that the Okinawans are liars, Okinawans would just lie there and take it, not doing anything? Riiight. You're not getting my points. Japan is REFUSING to face up to its past and that's why countries feel aggrieved.

Look I am not apathetic but I live my life in the present not past. You know if there is a war with China, I may get to wear my uniform again. I pledge myself to my country and the defeat of the peoples republic when they attack. I will NEVER apologize to them or their Japan bashing minions.

What has this got to do with Japan denying its past? You hypothetically going to war with China in the future has nothing to do with anything I've said.

He said what he said, I do not agree with him but when your likes attacks my country, I will defend it!

Wow, nothing like a bit of shameful truth telling to get those embers of nationalism burning again, is there?

.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

oginome, I do not do things to win the approval of you and the other Japan bashers. The more you write, the more I will support my country. The Imperial Japanese troops killed a lot of Okinawa people and we have forgiven them. If some Japanese politician says something stupid we do not have a cow.

Look I am not apathetic but I live my life in the present not past. You know if there is a war with China, I may get to wear my uniform again. I pledge myself to my country and the defeat of the peoples republic when they attack. I will NEVER apologize to them or their Japan bashing minions.

He said what he said, I do not agree with him but when your likes attacks my country, I will defend it!

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

oginome, He is not the mayor of the city I am a residence. I did not vote him into office and it is not my place to yell remove him

Do you understand what democracy is? Even if you didn't personally vote him into office, as a citizen of a DEMOCRACTIC COUNTRY, you cans still decide whether or not you want to say something and you've obviously chosen the latter. It doesn't matter if he's mayor of your city or not. If the mayor of Erfurt insinutated Holocaust denial, then trust me, German citizens outside the city, all across the country, people who'd never even heard of him, would be calling for him to resign based on those disgusting comments. This is the response of people who have confronted and faced up to their past.

As for giving them "ammunition", they would manufacture it if needed. I will never apologize for the actions of the Imperial government. What more does the new government of Japan have to do?

Japan has never engaged with any sincere dialogue with itself over its war crimes and atrocities . China is a dicatorship we know, but even if they continue to manufacture more ammuntion, this is one piece of ammunition which Japan itself keeps WILLINGLY manufacturing. Face up to what the Japan did, Yuri. This is part of your country's history. if you're going to wash your hands off these atrocities, then conversely, you're going to have to do the same with all the good things which have come out of Japan too.

It was acknowledged and apologized also repatriation were paid. China needs to move past our tragic history but it will not. Hating Japanese including the people of Okinawa helps keep the peoples minds off of real problems.

No, it has not acknowledged, not in any real way. Look at the school text books controversy which continues to rage on. Look at the politicans who proudly visited Yasukuni even up until very recently (and they probably still would if the LDP were in power). Most of all, look at how comments like Kawamura's are greeted with apathy by most of the Japanese population, including yourself. This response of the population is the biggest tell tale sign of all. Japan should be ashamed of its militaristic past, and the millions it butchered in the 30s and 40s. Any comments like Kawamura's should be seen as something only a low life would make. Unfortunately, as we've seen, in the apathy that greeted his disgusting denial, Japanese people don't know/care about this past, which is the biggest insult to those who suffered and continue to suffer because of Japan's murderous expansion programme.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Some Japanese academics also contest the number of casualties in Nanjing, and say estimates range from 20,000 to 200,000.

Blame it on the academics.

There's a second picture on this article. One visitor looking at exhibits showing graphic pictures of decapitated Chinese. I think that's the Museum of the War of Chinese People's Resistance Against Japanese Agression. It receives around 300,000 visitors annually, including some 10,000 Japanese.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I want to apologize to all the posters who took offense at my posts with the belief that I was defending Kawamura's denial. I never agreed with Kawamura said, but I wanted to carry the point that his opinion does not reflect the Japanese public at large. But I take this opportunity to all of you who took advantage of this affair to label every Japanese as historical revisionists and every Imperial Japanese Army personnel as butchers to know YOU GOT SERVED.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

oginome, He is not the mayor of the city I am a residence. I did not vote him into office and it is not my place to yell remove him. Oh again we are not German and Adolf Hitler was voted into office unlike Tojo and his minions. He had enthusiastic support while the Imperial government had forced support. Support that was back up by assassination and prison. The election that made him Chancellor was a free one.

As for giving them "ammunition", they would manufacture it if needed. I will never apologize for the actions of the Imperial government. What more does the new government of Japan have to do? It was acknowledged and apologized also repatriation were paid. China needs to move past our tragic history but it will not. Hating Japanese including the people of Okinawa helps keep the peoples minds off of real problems.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Japan hasn't faced up to its past. Leave China out of this for a second and whatever agenda they might be pursuing. Kawamura's statement alone should have greeted with condemnation from the Japanese public, but it wasn't. Whereas if the alternative occured in Germany, the German population would be furious at such disgusting denial. Japan can't keep burying its head in the sand.

Most Japanese understand that they can't be held responsible for the actions of Japanese imperial soldiers which occured during wartime 60 years ago. A brief google on the subject will also show that crimes of the past have been apologised for on numerous occasions by several Japanese leaders.

The Japanese approach is not one of denying, rather, it's more a grim acceptance and desire to move on. You could learn something from this, too. It's also unwarranted for any foreigner to point a finger at the Japanese as a whole and demand that they should be doing or thinking this or that. It's for the Japanese nation as a whole to decide how best to deal with their own troubled past.

From my own perspective I see only two camps returning to the issue of Nanjing with regularity: The Chinese and the USA. Both have their own troubled and violent histories which have yet to be faced publicly. Likewise both have an interest in keeping the issue of Nanjing alive in the public mind.

For the USA it is this inter-Asian rivalry which helps maintain their presence in the region. Their self-proclaimed role as benign defender of liberty and freedom against supposed Chinese/NK agression has been repeated ad nauseam.

For the Chinese the constant reminder of Japanese agression is necessary ever since Japan decided to align it self with the West (USA) rather than with their closer kin accross Asia.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

@Yuri, nice to see you didn't respond to my post.

Japan hasn't faced up to its past. Leave China out of this for a second and whatever agenda they might be pursuing. Kawamura's statement alone should have greeted with condemnation from the Japanese public, but it wasn't. Whereas if the alternative occured in Germany, the German population would be furious at such disgusting denial. Japan can't keep burying its head in the sand. Yes of course, Kawamura's statement doesn't reflect on anyone but himself, but the apathetic response of the Japan in this case says so much. Where are the people saying he should be removed from office? How is massacre denial not considered shameful?

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Before all this happened, Other areas such as Shizuoka and Hubei were celebrating friendship ties and building on goodwill. All it takes is one village idiot to waste the efforts of others.

And there's no reason why they can't continue working together and celebrating their cooperation. If the Chinese government wants to protest every time a Japanese politician denies or plays down the Nanjing massacre, that's its choice. But China as a whole needs to accept that there always going to be people like Kawamura, just as there are people that deny the Holocaust.

I would pose a question to those people that try to claim Kawamura is reflective of Japanese society. Do you think that Iranians are all Holocaust deniers because of President Imadinnerjacket's denials? Should Jews demand that all Iranians beg humble apology for their leader's comments and that there should be compulsory classes on the Holocaust in Iranian schools?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Whatever the facts of Nanjing (and there can be no doubt that Japasnese soldiers DID commit a terrible crime there), I also feel that the memory of that poor city is now, cynically, used as propaganda to stir and perpetuate divisive inter-racial fear and mistrust. The major of Nagoya DOES NOT represent or speak for the Japanese population - he represents himself. Attempts by some posters here to link this to some fictional inherent Japanese bloodlust are cheap and only add to the problem.

Furthermore, continual references to Nazi Germany and their own personal holocaust are misleading. That particular crime was a direct result of sanctioned government policy. It was murder on an industrial scale, the like of which we will, hopefully, never again witness. It has no bearing upon what happened at Nanjing. Even the most cursory referencing of the known facts can be illuminating.

Then I saw this:

NetNinja

One thing I've discovered about your society in the decades I've been here is this, you have a lust for blood and war. You deeply want to destroy your neighbors and you would love to wield America's military assets in order to accomplish this. Over the past decades, you have tried to put America in the middle of your scuffles with North Korea and China. I don't want to see that happen cause I know how you would turn on Americans too. Japan does not value us beyond her own selfish ambitions.

This post alone reflects the appaulingly juvenile venting which passes for debate ot JT. NetNinja, claiming to have spent 'decades' in Japan has concluded that they are nothing more than a rabble of violent, mindless animals. Not one poster saught to correct or challenge it! Why? Every word you typed runs contrary to my own, very real, experience of the Japanese. Just how any USA citizen can claim another nation has a 'lust for blood and war' and expect to be taken seriously is baffling. Nothing you say is backed by any evidence beyond your own teen angst. You actually think Japan wants to use the USA to attack Korea or China? How very sad.

Most Japanese, young and old, are too busy getting on with their lives to be too concerned with events carried out before they were born. Yes, the Japanese were unfortunate enough to have been led, during the war years, by an expansionist government which used all manner of nationalistic rhetoric to get the population behind their pointless adventures. You could say the same for any number of countries of the time...or even of now. But what choice did they really have? To smear an entire population as bloodthursty is idiotic at best.

I see no reason to continue rubbing Japanese noses in Nanjing. Yes, the Japanese were agressive and they paid a terrible price for the crimes of their leaders. Now let go. Please.

As for NetNinja's assertion that the Japanese would like to use the USA millitary...Most Japanese that I speak to would like nothing more than to see an end to the USA millitary presence in their land but feel powerless to do anything about it. Further than that, as I said, they are far too busy getting on with their lives.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

“I doubt that the Nanjing massacre happened, even though a conventional fight took place,” Kawamura said.

This ridiculous statement, uttered by a man whose job (mayor of Nagoya) requires absolutely no need to provide commentary on the topic at hand (yet another Japanese politician mouthing off on something unrelated to his duties) actually goes a long way towards explaining why Japanese soldiers incurred the wrath and enmity of Asians everywhere from Seoul to Surabaya. I mean, if what occurred in Nanking in December/January of 1937/38 was just a "conventional fight" in the eyes of many Japanese, then what exactly would constitute something worse than that? The Japanese behaved and fought with extraordinary savagery in Nanking--but I guess it was just par for the course and similar to how they behaved in Manila, Singapore, Hong Kong, Burma, etc. as far as Kawamura and those like him are concerned.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

NetNinja, The people of Okinawa are aware of the main landers trying to whitewash history. They tried to change the school textbooks about what the Japanese did to the Okinawa people during the Typhoon of Steel. So when Takashi chan spoke out it did not surprise me. One reason he can get away with it is because the Japanese bashers bash every one in Japan and not just him. Feel that they are attacking me and my family and do not even support the man! He said something really STUPID. Perhaps he might have a drinking problem and that slipped but do not think so. He knew what he was saying. Anyhow by the nature of the attack by China and the bashers, our words of disapproval are being drowned out. This event leaves me depressed about the future.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

Gobshite, something is very wrong when ONE person says something stupid and then China blames all of Japan. It means the Peoples Republic are looking for an excuse to bash Japan. While I do not agree with the mayor, I do support his right to speak. Japan is not China or Germany. Anyhow when Takashi chan spoke those words and then the Japan bashing starts, it confirms to me it is hopeless. There is nothing that can be done to approve relations. If it was not him something else would of set it off. No amount of apologies will ever get Japan forgiven for its actions in the Pacific war. They will all be brushed aside as "insecure" etc. It is time Japan gets its rumps out of the air and treat China as a foe. As for the Japanese bashers, yes you! You never miss a chance to slander our country. It has problems but people like you feed the paranoid.

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

True. Except for the fact that Chinese were disguising a civilians inside Nanking which made the situation hairy.

Correct that to "Chinese soldiers"

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

“I doubt that the Nanjing massacre happened, even though a conventional fight took place,”

True. Except for the fact that Chinese were disguising a civilians inside Nanking which made the situation hairy.

“we cannot deny that the killing of noncombatants, looting and other acts occurred”

Name a military campaign that are absolutely FREE of such things? There are none. Hence, it's deemed "conventional fighting" especially during those times.

Before someone argues the "scale" of such acts, then one must debate the number of deaths as well.

Every nation whitewashes its own history/astrocities and teaches an edited version to its school-children.

So true. Notice how when the losers of WWII does it, it automatically is labeled as "massacre". However, "Bombing of Tokyo" where

"The firebombing of Tokyo on the night of March 9/10, 1945 was the single deadliest air raid of World War II;[10] greater than Dresden,[11] Hiroshima, or Nagasaki as single events.[12][13]" in which nearly a hundred thousands of civilians were killed in a single event, aren't labeled as "TOKYO MASSACRE" nor is mentioned in the U.S. textbook.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Before all this happened, Other areas such as Shizuoka and Hubei were celebrating friendship ties and building on goodwill. All it takes is one village idiot to waste the efforts of others.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Japanese people love to talk about their victimhood in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but tend to be very vague with their own war crimes. The war was just crap, a lot of crap happened, a lot of people dealt out crap. Denying or trying to sugarcoat history is supremely stupid and disrespectful besides.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I'm normally what you would consider to be "anti-Chinese", but in this case I have to side with them. Based on documented massacres that were carried out by Japanese forces during WWII, it is all-too easy to believe something like the Nanking massacre happened in the years shortly before. This mayor is an idiot for publically denying something so well documented. There are plenty of things you can accuse the Chinese of, but calling them liars for claiming the Nanking Massacre happened is not one of them.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Japan always likes to keep that whole "I'm right you're wrong" facade, or "we're perfect we didn't do anything wrong", when the evidence is staring them in the face. It's a known historical fact. Hell, even now...

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

What happened to those routinely formal summits, not the informal twenty minute talks, between Japan and China? Back in 2001? Oh yeah, that was when Koizumi started going to Yasukuni Shrine.

Anyways, there's a great article back in 2005 about what is still happening now.http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/03/international/asia/03nationalism.html?pagewanted=all

Japan's PM has to get down on his knees like Willy Brandt did in the Warsaw ghetto and ask forgiveness.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Well so a mayor of Japan says something not so smart. Japan has free speech and China and Germany does not. My Chinese cousins really bother me at times. The only thing that makes sense is the Peoples Republic is using the hatred of Japanese to rule. The fact that one politician and not a national one can "damage" relations with China means there is no relation at all. Relations with China is a lie and I fear one day soon they will go too far.

The People's Republic wouldn't have the ammunition to further reinforce hatred of Japan in the Chinese populace if Japan actually faced up to and atoned for its past. A mayor or even anyone in Japan engaging in massacre denial is not simply a case of somebody saying something that's 'not so smart'. The fact that there's been no public outcry over this from the Japanese population alone says so much. Even if the ban on Holocaust denial was lifted in Germany tomorrow, if a German mayor whose father was an SS officer cast doubt on the Holocaust, the backlash from the public would be extreme. That's the difference between Japan and Germany, one country has faced up to its past and one country hasn't.

You say you don't hate your Chinese 'cousins', Yuri. Well then, why aren't you outraged that Japan is refusing to face up to its war crimes that left millions of these Chinese peope dead. Just because China is a dictatorship today doesn't mean Japan gets a get-out-of-jail free card. They were YOUR country's crimes and having nothing to do with how China is governed today or what agenda the Chinese government is currently pursuing.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

A Japanese politician telling a Chinese official from Nanjing that he doubts a massacre happened is akin to a foreign person holding a poster outside Yasukuni Shrine depicting the Emperor as the Devil. You might technically have the legal right to do it in a country with free speech, but it's pretty stupid thing to do, with pretty severe consequences.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Terry.

Fully agree. As they say: "Let him who is without sin cast the 1st stone."

War is hell(experienced it) and seen things done by enemy and friendly soldiers that made my stomach turn. Neither was better or more right.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

The Mayor denying that the event never took place is appalling and an absolute disgrace. HOWEVER It is wrong to generalize and use the word "Japan" as this article is only the statement of this nitwit imbecile of a over-nationalistic mayor. (Although I do not doubt there are many in denial)

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Cletus.

I am NOT saying Japan is right/wrong. Discussing this a neither from a chinese nor japanese viewpoint(I am neither) but as an outside observer that is unbiased and thus uninvolved.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

It"S MEFEB. 23, 2012 - 07:41PM JST

Every nation whitewashes its own history/astrocities and teaches an edited version to its school-children.

Well l guess that makes it all right then.....

But does every nation whitewash its atrocities while playing the perpetual victim? Only one nation does that and damn does it excel at it.....

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Cletus.

Not disagreeing but Nanjing at that time was the de-facto capital of China, so no-one knows the actual/true population figures. Most estimates are based on records from by a priest, etc.

How many people do you think should have died to bring germany do its knees or Rome or any other major invasion force over the millenia.

You are arguing trivialities and not the topic. Every nation whitewashes its own history/astrocities and teaches an edited version to its school-children.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

It"S ME

Not the problem at all. Japanese government don't deny the nanjing massacre perse.

But this guy does. Afterall he did say "I doubt that the Nanjing massacre happened, even though a conventional fight took place,” Kawamura said."

What is at odds is the number of "victims". China sez one figure, Japan sez a lower one and overseas studies show a "possible" figure in between. BUT no-one can give proof of their "claimed" figures. So it is a "he said, she said" situation. The Japanese governments standpoint is that the chinese figures are inflated(which is backed by the overseas studies/reports).

Seriously who cares if the Japanese figures are correct or the Chinese figures. The fact is thousands died at the hands of the Japanese. How many deaths are acceptable 1, 10 a 100 or 100,000 in the end the Japanese killed innocent civilians and now play it down and try to minimise their actions. They do it with every massacre they committed during the war (and there where many), they down play and try to minimise what is seen as their involvement and at the same time remind everyone just how much they suffered by their own actions. That is what is truly sickening.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

It's me

i never get how they come up with these numbers. did they count every dead body? or is it based on how many have gone missing? sorely some mite of just made lives in other parts of the country or outside. it has been done many times before.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

susieuk.

Not the problem at all. Japanese government don't deny the nanjing massacre perse.

What is at odds is the number of "victims". China sez one figure, Japan sez a lower one and overseas studies show a "possible" figure in between. BUT no-one can give proof of their "claimed" figures. So it is a "he said, she said" situation.

The Japanese governments standpoint is that the chinese figures are inflated(which is backed by the overseas studies/reports).

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

@warnerbro Bwhahahahhahaa China made Japan surrender?? You're just pulling my leg. Please leave my funny bone alone. If you are trying to cheer me up you are doing a good job.

It doesn't matter who won the war really. It ended badly. All of it is ugliness. You have to fess up to that stuff. Can't keep lying to yourself and others. Hate and racism won WWII cause it's still here today. It's near indestructible. The only way the healing is going to begin is when both sides make the history books accurate so we can learn from our own mistakes.

That's the way brothers and sisters. That's the only way. We have to police our own. Japanese have got to police their own. Can't let one individual ruin life for a whole society. These politicians have to be watched carefully. They'll hijack good intentions and try to build their fame and fortune off them. This is the end of the day for me.

Patty Cake, no hard feelings I hope. Tomorrow's another day and we might see eye to eye on something else.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

oldsanno

So why did he say it? Because it's the truth. There is no reliable death count. There were 3 armies fighting. There were atrocities by all 3 armies. New Research on the Nanjing Incident http://www.japanfocus.org/-David-Askew/1729

So you are using the writings of a self declared massacre denier to defend the statements of another massacre denier. Hmm well done there. Given David Askew is well known and documented for his downplaying of the event and his revisionism of facts maybe you should have picked someone better as an example

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Germany made it illegal for anyone to deny the holocaust

I was going to bring this up, but Supermonk already did.

Denying the holocaust is taken very seriously in Europe - not only in Germany. This Kawamura apparently is a denier of history. If I were Japanese I would be deeply ashamed of having a criminal in public office. He should take responsibility and resign or be forced out of office.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

So why did he say it? Because it's the truth.

There is no reliable death count.

There were 3 armies fighting.

There were atrocities by all 3 armies.

New Research on the Nanjing Incident

http://www.japanfocus.org/-David-Askew/1729

-12 ( +1 / -13 )

So the Mayor said this to reporters.

Since I became a lawmaker I've said there was no massacre of hundreds of thousands" in Nanjing, Kawamura told a press conference in Tokyo. "It is better to say so openly, rather than saying it secretly.

And his reasoning behind saying and believing this, his daddy a IJA soldier told him so. Now there in itself is a totally honest and reliable source. Like anyone associated with the IJA or IJN could be trusted to tell the truth about their wartime activities. But the best bit his justification for his beliefs.

Asked why he doubts a massacre took place, Kawamura said, "The crucial reason is that there were no witnesses."

Of course there wasnt. Why because the IJA massacred them all. Bit hard to report on it after having your throat slit by Japanese soldiers after all. Dead men tell no tales!!!!

The best bit this nuff nuff of a mayor also believes

he believes that only "conventional acts of combat" took place there, not mass murder and rape of civilians.

Maybe he is right afterall. Given the performance of the IJA and IJN during the war, conventional warfare for them is killing anything that moves regardless of age, and sex. So yeah in there eyes it probably was conventional warfare just as the firebombing and A bombing of Japan was conventional.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

"Nanjing to suspend official exchanges with Nagoya"

http://english.cntv.cn/program/newsupdate/20120222/121932.shtml

Guess we can't say we didn't see this coming............

2 ( +2 / -0 )

We know what they want. They want Mr. Kawamura's head on a platter. So you don't agree with what he said but you are here to support free speech? Great, how wonderful you are.

You know birds of a feather flock together. Guilty by association seems to happen all the time. You seem pretty close to him. So supportive, right there for him, defending him, you're all up on his...well anyway.

Again, Japan is a democracy, no only do we try to uphold free speech, we also try people individually and don't go prescribing people based on association.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

NetNinja, according to China, China made Japan surrender. China won the anti Japanese war.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@NetNinja: Either Kawamura is extremely naive or he has an agenda as you say. I don't know enough about his backround so I'm going with the lesser of the two evils and just putting it down to naivete.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@patty cake

All the while we ignore what those people who were killed in cold blood at Nanking would've really wanted.

We know what they want. They want Mr. Kawamura's head on a platter. So you don't agree with what he said but you are here to support free speech? Great, how wonderful you are.

You know birds of a feather flock together. Guilty by association seems to happen all the time. You seem pretty close to him. So supportive, right there for him, defending him, you're all up on his...well anyway.

Your source of hearsay, bad press and stereotypes are no more reliable than Kawamura's chat with his dad.

Not sure if this was directed at me or not but I feel that shot went over my bow. First off, hearsay, bad press and stereotypes are NONE of my sources. Furthermore, this is not technically my beef, it's yours (Japan's) but since your man is so careless with his words that it might completely damage relations with Beijing it's now in America's lap.

My sources are better than your sources when it comes to the topic of Nanjing. You see, my sources are FAMILY who were actually there. Family who had to escape on boats or they would have been killed for the atrocities committed by Japanese soldiers. My sources completely and openly told me of the horrors of Nanjing and what Japanese soldiers did. This is your own talking about your own.

I do NOT know Mr. Kawamura well. Information on him is a bit difficult to dig up. His past really doesn't matter though. This is the present and Mr. Kawamura is an idiot out to hurt relations with China for reasons that have not become clear yet. I like to gamble though. I'm willing to bet money that this has something to do with Okinawa and keeping the bases there.

Yubaru and YuriOtani need to watch this closely. Next thing you know Tokyo will claim that China is still a threat and they cannot move troops or bases. AFTER Mr. Kawamura rattled the Dragon's cage.. Mr. Kawamura did what he did for a reason. What he said was insulting and uncalled for. Just plain irresponsible if you ask me. I'd love to see him removed from office.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

As usual this all started again because another idiot Japanese politician did not have a clue. These guys need some coaching before they meet any foreign dignitaries. Its not like all of don't have questionable opinions... none of are perfect... but these politicians need to keep their mouths shut on delicate topics.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Just like the Great Kanto Earthquake Massacre of 1923 never happened. Mostly ethnic Koreans, Okinawans and Chinese. Find for yourself.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Lets put the shoe on the other foot. How would you feel IF an American official said "Hiroshima and Nagasaki wasn't so bad" of IF a cabinet member said "The Tokyo fire bombings weren't more than a hot summer's day" I know how you would feel, the same as China's government. You'd be VERY upset.

But the atom bomb weren't that bad after all, reportedly it saved millions more Japanese and American lives than it killed. Also the firebombs were in ways like a hot summer's day. In Australia and California, the typical dry summer allows bush fires to spread out of control. People who live in Japanese cities can be relieved the gruelling effect of the urban island effect by visiting the mountains, likewise their WWII counterparts could have left to hide in the hills outside the city when it was obvious that the Americans were going to drop firebombs on them.

Many seem to think that I agree with Kawamura that the Rape of Nanking didn't happen, not at all! I deplore his denial but I will defend his right to say it. I also stand to respect the Japanese people general to not judge them and not let them be judged by the words spoken by this one mayor from central Japan and other minorities who share his view.

I find it ironic to find those who decry Kawamura for denying public facts also resort to making presumptions against Kawamura that are either unwarranted or clearly counter-factual. Your source of hearsay, bad press and stereotypes are no more reliable than Kawamura's chat with his dad.

It's also interesting to see that a lot of the posts target the Japanese people in general and not against Kawamura, I understand because most of you don't know jack about this man and can't bother to do research.

All the while we ignore what those people who were killed in cold blood at Nanking would've really wanted.

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

So, his father was an officer - albeit a low ranking, non-commissioned one

A corporal like any enlisted man cannot issue orders or carry command responsibility. If any man in his unit committed a war crime, he will not be held vicariously liable in court martial. This is a salient fact. In the English speaking world, and at least those who are familiar with military structure, Only commissioned officers are casually referred as 'officers', NCOs are almost never referred to as such.

So his family were from a line of archive commissioners in Owari Domain belonging to the one of the three Tokugawa cadet branches. If you actually knew Japanese history apart from Takashi Kawamura's ja.wikipedia page, Tokugawa loyalists were discouraged from holding influential government posts since the Meiji era. There is nothing to suggest that his family were elevated to the Shizoku. Hitotsubashi University is a national university so entry is limited to the best academic performers and not by financial or political arm twisting. I really don't find the 'influence' you are talking about.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@ smithinjapan

Try saying this at the August ceremony in Hiroshima held every year and see what happens.

You'll say victimisation, but I say it's awareness aimed at world peace.

Japan is not trying to score points by bashing the Amercians with this so your analogy holds no weight.

Peace is not really that hard to acheive if everybody's with the program.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

East Asia is never going to get over WWII. And that's in large part because many members of the dynastic Japanese political class are descended from the same men that committed war crimes during that period, and seem to honestly believe that nothing bad actually happened, coupled with the fact that China has too much to gain from constantly playing the victim card. If the Chinese people are always angry at, and distracted by Japan's crimes of 7+ decades ago, then it is easier for them to ignore the crimes their own government has perpetrated against them since. Still, Japanese politicians need to smarten up. Did the Rape of Nanking happen? I'm pretty sure it did. Did 300 000 people die? Probably not, but that hardly makes it a trivial incident. And to all the Nagoya bashers upthread, take it easy. Ultra-nationalist morons are hardly limited to Aichi-ken.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

I think that newly elected Japanese politicians should all have to attend a compulsory class on Common Sense Diplomacy and Proper Conduct.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

japanese never learned their lesson.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

this mayor is a pig head.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@NeoJamal - Kawamura's father was a Corporal - a non-commissioned officer - in mainland China. He was in Brigade Command, 101st Infantry Division of the Imperial Japanese Army. He was in the city of Nanjing immediately after the war in1945 and returned in 1946. Those are FACTS .It is also a fact that his family were samurai magistrates in the Tokugawa dynasty. They are not in the peerage but are still an established & distinguished Samurai family. So, his father was an officer - albeit a low ranking, non-commissioned one & he DOES come from a Samurai family that once served the Tokugawa clan. My facts were not wrong. And that is why he makes insensitive comments - because he is an elitist from an upper class background that supported the ruling class.

And I did NOT say that Japanese war criminals were not tried & hanged (i.e. Hideki Tojo). What I AM saying is that the ruling class structure that was in place - since the Edo period and throughout the war - has NOT changed today. I also didn't say that Mayor Kawamura was a peer - but having graduated from Hitotsubashi university (an elite politically-connected school) he comes from a Tokugawa Shogunate-connected family & he is DEFINITELY part of the same hierarchy. So he is an elite school politician with a dad who had upper class Samurai connections dating back to the Edo period. I am not worried about posting facts - but I think you need to more carefully look at yours friend-oh.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Readers, please stay on topic. Posts that do not focus on the Nagoya mayor's comments will be removed.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

20,000 to 200,000 is a big difference. Also, what does the number matter? The point is, many people were slaughter. just admit it and move on.

His father said it didnt happen. Yeah, your father is going to tell you that he may have raped and murder many people in his in service to his country. If you think bullying in school and work is bad in japan, imagine how bullying in the military must have been then.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I think Kawamura is right!!!!!!!!!!!! The Japanese Empire was a very nice thing to be part of and no one died and everyone was was very happy and willing to be part of it just like how the atomic bombs that were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were made of daisies and spread flower petals and nothing else. Anyone who claims otherwise are spreading communist propaganda!!!!!

1 ( +4 / -3 )

The Nazis were diabolical because they planned out, in detail, how to exterminate people. It was systematic

Jforce,

Yes the Nazi were nasty(even the Japanese understand this, but CANT understand themselves.....wtf) & systematic, but look at the numbers 20-30million killed by Japan, pls do take a look at the time frame involved, even use the lower estimate & you will quickly find the Japan while perhaps not as SYSTEMATIC, Japan was one hell of a killing machine day in day out year after years for far far too many years, whip out a calculator & check it out the numbers are staggering

0 ( +2 / -2 )

right now, Japan is the country to whip

Sorry BernieK but China isnt whipping Jpn its Japan that is whipping itself! In my 20+yrs here there have been hundreds of times where politicians of ALL levels have mouthed off incredibly stupid rants about WWII etc, its just insane! For Japan its always one step forward then a few backwards.

Bottom line is Japan has never even remotely come close to dealing with its history from the 1920's to 1945, Japan has only itself to blame, has constantly mortgaged its future with regards to its neighbours & now that Japan is headling south rather quickly(of which I derive NO JOY BTW!) you wud think they wud at least have the brains to shut up, but sadly its not to be, these idiots have & will continue to do great damage to their own people/country, its seriously messed up!

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

@YuriOtani I'm not jumping on you. Please remember that over the months and countless blogs we've done you have earned my respect. You honestly have it.

People like Mr. Kawamura will get your family killed and / or destroy everything you've ever loved. Patty Cake here endorses his behavior. I would not take sides with him if I were you (in advance)

Some posters are trying to single Mr. Kawamura out as "one person". I understand. If I were you I'd want to distance myself from him real quick so I don't get any splash damage from the incoming missile. However, his comments stand out MUCH MUCH stronger than say if Mr. Noda had said the same thing. Here's the reason why.

In Japan, the citizens can't choose the Prime Minister but they can vote for the Mayor of Nagoya directly. At such a low level, people and governments alike may assume that he really does speak for the people.

China is taking this seriously cause murder is murder. We all understand what war means. It's tragic and unfair. There's a difference between winning the war and a brutal unwarranted massacre that is Nanking. The Chinese have every right to be upset as well.

What's worse is that the fallout from this is not really going to affect Mr. Kawamura directly. You are down there in Okinawa. You've got front row seats. I've got family down there in Okinawa too. I don't want to see them engaged in a war with China because of some careless mayor.

@patty cake Why don't you call your boys in the black vans. Tell them to put on a military uniform and stand guard. Then the Americans can go home.

Lets put the shoe on the other foot. How would you feel IF an American official said "Hiroshima and Nagasaki wasn't so bad" of IF a cabinet member said "The Tokyo fire bombings weren't more than a hot summer's day" I know how you would feel, the same as China's government. You'd be VERY upset.

So we ask ourselves this one question. Why would China's government be angry at ALL the people of Japan for the careless remarks of one individual? It's simple. You don't police your own. Now if you don't police your own and this continues then someone else will come and police you. That's how it works.

@YuriOtani You've always been very active towards your cause. If you have any voice down there in Okinawa with your group you had better mention something about this Nagoya mayor.

Mr. Kawamura, pffft. He'll flee to the U.S if things go bad here in Japan.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

And that's why this weekend, you'll see loads of black trucks blaring Imperialist war music cruising the streets of Tokyo - because unlike the Germans who were forced to show responsibility for atrocities and were executed for their crimes, the Japanese elite maintain an attitude of inculpability & guiltlessness in regard to the horrid crimes they committed.

I can't speak for patty but,

Are you implying the IWCTFE where war criminals were tried and hanged didn't exist? Also the Japanese elite who alive and 'maintain an attitude of inculpability & guiltlessness' right now do so most likely because: 1. they were kids or weren't even born during the war; 2. they weren't found guilty of serious war crimes.

to me indicates that he is part of the same autocracy that has ruled this country since the Edo period.

and then YOU'RE WRONG. Autocrats from the Edo period were given peerages from the Meiji Restoration and his family weren't a peer. Also Kawamura's father was an enlisted man in the Army, not a officer. Don't worry you are not the only JT poster who ignores facts or cite bad press.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

I concur with the previous comment. In fact the victim mentality is present in many Japanese. While it is apparent that Japan was bombed,it is not apparent what the Imperial Army did to civilians in China as many records were destroyed.

The infamous experiments conducted by the Nazis are widely referenced but not those of Unit 731. www.copi.com/articles/guyatt/unit_731.html

In the link above is an example of denial of unlawful behavior by the researchers.

In fact, the present day Green Cross group in Japan was formed from Unit 731 doctors.

It is no wonder that modern Japanese still have a tenuous grasp of their own history when the atrocities have never been openly cited and discussed.

Maybe the Chinese would be kind enough to construct a war museum in Tokyo as an aid to open dialogue and relations?

4 ( +4 / -0 )

ReformedBasher: "But at the same time, it's time to stop rehashing stuff that happened 70 years ago."

Try saying this at the August ceremony in Hiroshima held every year and see what happens. You can't just conveniently brush it under the carpet when it is YOU who wronged but say it is the responsibility of today's youth to learn and remember and therefore change when from an incident (or incidents) in which you were the victim. No one is suggesting that all Japanese old and young should grow up shamed by what happened, but to DENY what happened should be met with shame without a doubt. Acknowledge it, and prove you've LEARNED from it to improve relations -- obviously denial meets only with renewed anger and hatred, as it should.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

@pattycake - seeing as my quote is the one being referred to by you and others, the article explicitly states

Kawamura, whose father was in Nanjing in 1945 at the end of the Japanese occupation of China, denied that mass murders and rapes happened.

so does this mean his father was responsible for the crimes? Absolutely not. But, if you search in Japanese in Jan Jan press, a news article from 2007 states that his father was an officer in Nanking (Nanjing) at the end of the occupation. And Kawamura, being a career politician, and his father being an Imperial army officer, to me indicates that he is part of the same autocracy that has ruled this country since the Edo period.

My point is that the autocracy that was ultimately responsible for war crimes committed, were never made to pay for their crimes. Rather they were shifted into new posts so that society in Japan postwar would not fall into Communist China's hands. And the result is that, the mentality that existed prior to and during the war has never changed - because they were never taken to task for the crimes they committed. And that's why this weekend, you'll see loads of black trucks blaring Imperialist war music cruising the streets of Tokyo - because unlike the Germans who were forced to show responsibility for atrocities and were executed for their crimes, the Japanese elite maintain an attitude of inculpability & guiltlessness in regard to the horrid crimes they committed.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

get over it China!!!!!!!

Why should they 'get over it'? Don't obsess and 'get over' are not the same thing. It was the mayor that brought up his private opinions. He should have spoke in an official capacity at an official function. What good is a mayor if he can't tell the difference between drinks with friends and meeting with high level officials from other countries?

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Should I start with Once upon a time……….. Jap governments are bunch of kindergarten barcode headed Oyajis who still believes in fairy tales. Get a Life!!! Study the History and sincerely apologies to China, Okinawa and rest of the world. History teaches everything including the future.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

If the truth of Nanking is so important to Chinese people, why China has always tended to downplay the massacure in Mao's time, not to up-play it?

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

get over it China!!!!!!! stop making cr*p up and move on with your lives!

-17 ( +2 / -19 )

The main point here is that the mayor forgot, or seems to have never known what it means to be in a sister city relationship. It should have been obvious from the start that his comments would do nothing to promote anything remotely sister-city like. Kawamura's selfishness in airing his personal opinons in a public forum have nothing to do with promoting the relationship between the two cities. I wonder if he insults his real sisters in the same way.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@Yuri

This is ONE person and not all Japanese. He is NOT even a national politician but China blames all Japan for the mouth of a single person. I just do not see peace in the future. I think if China could land troops on Okinawa, they will kill all of us. It makes me sad that my cousins in China hate us so much. I do not hate them in return.

You are correct, this was a comment by one person, not all Japanese think this way. Sadly, this particular idiot is in a position of responsibility and he should know better, but this is Japan. You do however go on to say "my cousins in China hate us so much", some of them maybe, certainly not all of them.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

@BernieK

So true. Both Japan and China are using each other to score points and get away from real issues. Time to grow up and work together. If Japan and China started cooperating more, the results would be outstanding. I'm sure the world economic crisis would be knocked on it's head. They just have to learn to share.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

History is there to be debated. What is scary is most of you are jumping on this Mayor for having an opinion that he is willing to debate. There is nothing wrong with dialogue. Everyone needs to seriously relax on both sides of this and let's truly investigate the matter. The Nazis were diabolical because they planned out, in detail, how to exterminate people. It was systematic. Nanjing was a rout and the official numbers seem to be at the heart of the controversy. Why not investigate? Even if it were at all possible to fully do this, both sides love the political stance they can take on this. Are there nut-job old men in positions of power in Japan? Yes. How about the US? Too easy! China? Gee, I wonder. What the Chinese and other SE Asain countries ought to be looking into are all the Biological experiments that were done by Japanese scientists on their prisoners. And did any of those scientists (much like their German counterparts) get convicted of war-crimes? Nope. The good ol' USA took all the research and even employed some of the gents after the war. Any country involved in any war always does something awful. There are no righteous winners.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Communism is dead. Nationalism, nurtured by the Chinese Government, keeps the Chinese citizens together and, right now, Japan is the country to whip. China has gone nationalistic because of the many riots in China. You could possibly guess that there are so many protests this week alone in China that this news comes up in February? The Japanese troops took over Nanking on December 13th, 1937, seveny-five years ago this year. Expect more hate from China to Japan to fill the vacuum left by communism's weakening grip.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

Kawamura seriously believes the Nanking is a lie, or is prepared to overlook or deny the massive weight of evidence in order to make headlines? Regardless of why he does it, the fact that denying the Nanking massacure is a crack in the foundation of history that will allow rats into the cellar to eat away the foundations. And some of these people simply want to believe it's a lie. Because they're hardcore Japanese nationalist and if any of that doesn't already mean they're nut jobs then, yes, some of them are nut jobs. People like to believe what they want to believe, or to avoid unpleasant truths. Many wartime Japanese survivors like to claim they didn't know.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

The time for japan to give a full apology to Asian but particular to Chinese has passed. The right time to do so was around 1970 when japan started to improve relationship with China with a lot financial help. At that time, China (Chinese) was very weak and was appreciated for the help. If japan at that time gave a sincere apology for japan’s wrong doing in 1930 and 40s (including Nanjing Massacres), Chinese will accept apology and would not raised issue again and again like now. However, Japanese politician and some Japanese were/are so stubborn and self interesting that they do not want to make any sincere apology. OK, now China get stronger and stronger in both economic and military fields and a strong China makes it difficult for japan to apologize because japan does not want other to think its apology is due to its weakness. This is very unfortunate but it is a fact. Such situation will last very, very long time and may for ever. Sorry to say this.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

My Daddy told me there was a Santa Claus when I was little. But later on the truth came out that it was Dad all along putting the gifts under the tree so. This Takashi Kawamura person needs to stop just believing in what dad says and read a History Book. Because he looks like a Liar not some pro independent of the world Japan catalyst thingy. Reality is reality period.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Nanjing massacre? Who the hell is going to believe in such a fabrication. Mr. Kawamura is a true hero.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

This is ONE person and not all Japanese. He is NOT even a national politician but China blames all Japan for the mouth of a single person. I just do not see peace in the future. I think if China could land troops on Okinawa, they will kill all of us. It makes me sad that my cousins in China hate us so much. I do not hate them in return.

-3 ( +6 / -9 )

patty,

I believe your original question was

So you are suggesting from out of the blue that the mayor has relatives who actively participated in Japanese imperialism.

The article plainly states that, yes, the mayor had a relative (father) who was in Nanjing. I have no proof that he wasn't a tourist on a JALpak tour of China, but chances seem to be that he was there for business (imperialism) or military (imperialism).

Secondly, no, it wasn't 'out of the blue'. The article makes a point of mentioning that the mayor's dad was in Nanjing. That's hardly 'out of the blue.'

Have a nice day.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

As to wether this idiots father was there or not looks open to debate I mean the massacre occured in the later 1930's maybe 1936-38 sorry I aint a historian but I know it didnt occur around 1945! So while its possible his old man was there at the end of the war, its less likley he was there went the massacre took place, perhaps something this moron shud look into before spouting off his lies!

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

What's the point of denying it anyway? That's just adding salt to the wound.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Not irony. If you were able to defend yourself then I'd say go ahead and talk as much smack as you want. You got that. That's your bone to pick. However since you don't have the firepower or manpower to defend your islands you'll probably try to call us in Washington.

It is Japan duty as a recognized sovereign nation to start acting like one and look to their own defenses. I believe radical politicians like Kawamura will serve as a catalyst. Japan is a democracy and our citizens should have the unwavering right to free speech without being threatened by tyrants and despots from within and beyond our shores. If Americans fear to speak (or let others speak) fearing that a communist dictatorship will wage war against them, they are no longer the champion of democracy they claimed to be and not a worthy ally at all.

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

I wonder why some Japanese are still strenuously refused to admit the truth of the matter, even in Japan no longer denied. Are they really so uninformed by the Japanese mainstream history, or is it really something else? One misleading example of the "truth", China has always tended to downplay the massacre in Mao's time, not to up-play it. I suppose, for Japan, it's a matter of losing face, and if that's so, Japan has a lot face to lose. Those who deny the Nanjing butchery are so blinded that any truth exposed by anyone who even appears to support China's view is instantly shrugged off as a lie.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

In any other country this guy would be out of a job, not here.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

@borscht so was Kawamura's dad convicted of war crimes or crime against humanity? were there any suggestion that he might have killed some civilian other than the fact he was a Imperial Japanese Army soldier?

I bet you can't, which brings me back to that analogy of logical fallacy That's like saying all Japanese-Americans are disloyal to the US. Unless there is an exception to the Japanese and in fact every Japanese participated in some killing of non-combatants, which makes sense in the nuking and firebombing of Japanese cities.

-6 ( +5 / -11 )

@patty cake champion

The American public, telling another nation to not incite war...oh the irony

Not irony. If you were able to defend yourself then I'd say go ahead and talk as much smack as you want. You got that. That's your bone to pick. However since you don't have the firepower or manpower to defend your islands you'll probably try to call us in Washington.

We have a saying. Don't write checks your body can't cash. You wouldn't be talking trash like Nanking didn't happen if the U.S wasn't behind you. So yeah, I'll say it again. Don't let your boy in Nagoya incite war. He'll be hiding in a bunker somewhere when the guns start blazing.

As an American I have every right to speak on your behalf because it's my cousin's life you are gambling with when it comes to your careless comments.

When you put your own sons and daughters on the front line and stand watch then I'll butt out.

One thing I've discovered about your society in the decades I've been here is this, you have a lust for blood and war. You deeply want to destroy your neighbors and you would love to wield America's military assets in order to accomplish this. Over the past decades, you have tried to put America in the middle of your scuffles with North Korea and China. I don't want to see that happen cause I know how you would turn on Americans too. Japan does not value us beyond her own selfish ambitions.

4 ( +10 / -6 )

@borscht

so was Kawamura's dad convicted of war crimes or crime against humanity? were there any suggestion that he might have killed some civilian other than the fact he was a Imperial Japanese Army soldier?

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Getting a reaction from China was exactly what Kawamura was hoping for. Nothing improves your local poll numbers like poking your finger in the dragon's eye.

Considering the controversial tax changes he wants to make in Nagoya, trading barbs with China provides an excellent smokescreen.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

BTW, the subsequent recalls of several field commanders at Nanjing, including General Matsui and Prince Asaka, suggest the Japanese top command knew what had happened and were appalled by it. Matsui was hanged but Asaka let off the hook due to the occupation policy of giving the imperials a free ride.

and don't forget Shiro Ishii & the Unit 731 who got US citizenship and houses in New England on top of immunity from war crimes because their horrible human experiments on Chinese civilians and POWs was valuable to the US biological weapons program, all the while some Imperial Army Grunt who killed significantly less people at Nanking and in a comparatively less gruesome manner with a sword most likely hanged after a summary trial. THE END. I wonder how these politicians who deny the rape of Nanking would regard the live human experiments, if the Americans thought it wasn't a crime worth prosecuting, will they be willing to admit those experiments happened?

Also many posts have implied so far that the US has this..moral duty to stop Japanese politicians saying nasty things to the Chinese because it could..provoke war. The issue as to whether the Americans do have this moral duty is irrelevant, because if they actually had it, they clearly failed to execute it prior to the war against Iraq and even now as George W. Bush and his lieutenants walk free without charge. Then again, whoever suggested of the existence of this moral duty was clearly naive from their belief that the Chinese would take military action against Japan for taking a slight at history, really now? and at the same time lean favorable towards the Chinese position by suggesting such course of action is natural. The only thing natural which they are justifying is that communist dictatorship's imperialistic agenda against Japanese possessions. From history, any nation that was 'provoked' into military action by the defending nation's statesman had had already set their focus on invasion, they just needed some miserable excuse for action. How does this serve to support the moral superiority of the Chinese Communist Party?

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Well so a mayor of Japan says something not so smart. Japan has free speech and China and Germany does not. My Chinese cousins really bother me at times. The only thing that makes sense is the Peoples Republic is using the hatred of Japanese to rule. The fact that one politician and not a national one can "damage" relations with China means there is no relation at all. Relations with China is a lie and I fear one day soon they will go too far.

Netninja, the bases on Okinawa are not for the defense of Japan. True the marines could easily get to the disputed islands, the question is will America actually do it in time? Second will America go to war with China over a couple of small islands?

-12 ( +5 / -17 )

Nothing makes me angrier than to hear people telling others to "get over" an important part of history. I have no doubt that most Japanese people would not deny it, but then comments like this come to the forefront, and I cannot blame China for getting upset. Just like I would not go to Hiroshima, as an American, and say that they should "get over it" because it happened a long time ago. Or outright DENY that it happened, like this guy basically did. Moving past such a horrible event requires owning up to it and healing, not being petty and minimizing it just because it happened a long time ago.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

These politicians never learn, do they? Truth is, a large section of the population probably agrees with them despite loads of evidence to the contrary. The actual numbers can be put to debate but the fact of the matter is there is no doubt this event took place and that it was an exceptionally heinous war crime.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

patty cake champ-

So you are suggesting from out of the blue that the mayor has relatives who actively participated in Japanese imperialism.

From the article:

Kawamura, whose father was in Nanjing in 1945 at the end of the Japanese occupation of China,

Yes.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

As always, the arrogant, selfish, stubborn and uneducated Japanese oyajis prove they are the cancer of Japan.

14 ( +17 / -3 )

@Schopenhauer

Japan did very well for itself after the war. Recent problems notwithstanding.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Takashi Kawamura should be fired. Any politican in Germany who even attempts to deny the Holocaust would lose their job and face contempt from the public. Germany was able to face up to its past and work towards educating its youth, taking responsibilty and show remorse for its wartime atrocities. Why can't Japan do the same? There are many Japan bashers on this site who like to revel in their arrogant ethnocentrism and attack Japan over everything, but when it comes to this topic, Japan just can't be defended.

@OssanAmerica, maybe you should read the article, nobody was talking about the number killed in what was UNDOUBTEDLY a massacre. Kawamura denied the massacre happened in the first place!

“I doubt that the Nanjing massacre happened, even though a conventional fight took place,” Kawamura said.

This is complete and utter denial, not someone innocently enquiring about numbers of people killed.

7 ( +10 / -3 )

I wonder what the reaction here would be if someone were to deny that the A-bombs were dropped on Japan. Yes, not very nice, is it?

Reformed:

China should get over it too.

Yes, we all need to move on. But it's difficult when these stupid comments from elected Japanese politicians get thrown in your face time after time. In time, maybe the Americans should just 'get over' 9/11 and start hugging the Talibans or whoever was responsible.

Ossan:

What many do not accept are the figures that China uses.

But that's not what he said. Note the words 'conventional fight'. Please stop trying to mitigate the problem.

mikemiro:

The US made a huge mistake not killing off the Keiretsu/Zaibatsu leaders (the Mitsubishi, Mitsui & Sumitomo elite) and the Emperor.

Yes, and I've always blamed the American government for half the problems, because they were so busy hunting down the communists they didn't give a damn whether or not many war criminals were given back comfortable jobs running the country and were more interested in keeping certain 'experimental results' carried out by the Japanese instead of punishing them.

At the end of the day, Japan's relevance on the world stage is diminishing. It can be a part of the world, or it can shut its doors again. Her choice.

10 ( +15 / -5 )

the mayor of Nagoya would not be making insensitive comments about the people his relatives brutally oppressed.

So you are suggesting from out of the blue that the mayor has relatives who actively participated in Japanese imperialism. That's like saying all Japanese-Americans are disloyal to the US.

0 ( +6 / -6 )

So this doesn't reflect on Japan as a nation?

Believe it or not, Japanese might have individual opinions? (shocked looked)

P.S: Americans need to speak up about this too. We're the only nation to make Japan surrender. Washington needs to send a clear message to Tokyo not to exacerbate relations with China. We, Americans, know how ruthless Japan was during WWII. This mayor needs to retract his remarks. Do not allow such a naive politician incite war.

The American public, telling another nation to not incite war...oh the irony

May be Japan should acknowledge and somehow justify the rape of Nanking and put the weapons used in the massacre on display at a national museum.

-4 ( +6 / -10 )

Why China gets angry about what Mr. Kawamura said? He is just another local governor. Some people believe it and some doubt it. He is just one of them. There seems to be a contradiction in recognition between two countries.

-12 ( +1 / -13 )

Very few Japanese outright deny anything happened. I belive the Japanese MOFA does not deny that either. What many do not accept are the figures that China uses. They claim 300,000 in a city that had a 250,000 population. You had estimated witness figures from "ytens of thousands" to 200,000. The Chinese government (under the KMT who actually fought the Japanese troops at Nanjing) used a figure of 100,000 in in their attempt to prosecute Nanjing as awar crime at the Tokyo Trials. The Allied judges dismissed the charge due to a lack of evidence. Evidence is a problem because no remains anywhere near 300,000 have ever been found. And no record exists of bodies bering burned. In other words, a "masswacre" very likely happened but the figures are not known. The CCP Chinese government (Not the KMT who was there) has chosen a number of 300,000 which a great many scholars and historians outside of China consider rather arbitrary and unsupportable. Now many people dsay whether it was 30,000 or 300,000 what differnce does it make? Well if you charge someone with killing one person. 10 people or a 100, it does make a big difference, Some have taken the denial of the 300,000 figure as a "denial" of the event in entirety. That's two different things and the latter is a very small minority. Ther are those who use the "look at Germany" argument. Well the figures for holocaust deaths aren't in dispute because the Germans kept very good records and the invading allies witnessed the camps. It's not a murky mess of unsubstantiated claims like Nanking. Having said all that, it was stupid thing for the Mayor ofany Japanese city to have said. And, as far as Chinese complaints go, guaranrteed it won't go anywhere further than a complaint because there's far too much business and trade going on between China and Japan. We Americans know how ruthless the Japanese troops were in WWII. But on further examination so were we. And as it stands now, the country that trains their military with the U.S. as the designated enemy isd China, not Japan which is our ally. The China that was our ally before and during WWII was the KMT under Chiang Kai Shek, thrown out of mainland China to Taiwa by the current CCP government.

1 ( +8 / -7 )

Let's see. Someone arriving more than seven years after a bloodbath didn't see any corpses on the ground. By 1952, seven years after the event, Hiroshima had been mostly rebuilt. So Americans who arrived that year could come to the same conclusion that they hardly saw any evidence of the atomic bombing, therefore it was no different from an ordinary bombing. See how easy it is? You can deny anything if you're obstinate enough. BTW, the subsequent recalls of several field commanders at Nanjing, including General Matsui and Prince Asaka, suggest the Japanese top command knew what had happened and were appalled by it. Matsui was hanged but Asaka let off the hook due to the occupation policy of giving the imperials a free ride.

7 ( +9 / -3 )

Just the kind of thing the Chinese Communist party likes to hear, as anger at idiots like this is just about the only thing keeping them in power so long past their sell-by date. Personally, I'd like to see Japan move on and take up a leadership role in Asia, just like Germany has in Europe, having this continue is just holding everyone back from the reconciliation that brings peace.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

As I'd mentioned previously, the Japanese ruling elite never changed postwar - it was kept in place by the American commanders postwar and stayed on as the next generation of leaders in order to prevent communism from taking hold in Japan. The US made a huge mistake not killing off the Keiretsu/Zaibatsu leaders (the Mitsubishi, Mitsui & Sumitomo elite) and the Emperor. Had the US wiped out these oppressive & intolerant autocrats, Japan might be more aware of the suffering they caused in the past (instead of retaining a myopic view of their own suffering) & the mayor of Nagoya would not be making insensitive comments about the people his relatives brutally oppressed.

13 ( +17 / -4 )

Some kids will never grow up. That goes for both sides.

As the disagreement over the incident is like a sting in a throat, I’ve proposed to hold a debate on it.

Now he just wants to dig a deeper hole.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

How very stupid of Kawamura. But at the same time, it's time to stop rehashing stuff that happened 70 years ago. At least 2 generations had nothing to do with it. Not saying to forget what happned mind you, just stop using this kind of stuff to score political points. China should get over it too.

-2 ( +9 / -11 )

Japan’s top government spokesman Osamu Fujimura said the spat caused by Kawamura’s remarks “should be settled appropriately by the local governments of Nagoya and Nanjing.”

So this doesn't reflect on Japan as a nation?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Nagoya mayor Kawamura and Osaka mayor Hashimoto are popular since they are dictatorial and represent Japanese voices of hardliners. They think democracy and pacifism went too far and weakened Japan. I agree with them. Some think they can change Japan which has become unable to decide anything. We should change the peace constitution and rearm and restore defense industries so that we can sell weapons and aircrafts to the world which is now monopolized by America.

-10 ( +3 / -13 )

P.S: Americans need to speak up about this too. We're the only nation to make Japan surrender. Washington needs to send a clear message to Tokyo not to exacerbate relations with China. We, Americans, know how ruthless Japan was during WWII. This mayor needs to retract his remarks. Do not allow such a naive politician incite war.

1 ( +9 / -8 )

Japan still pouring salt into the wounds of those they laid waste to. Very cruel and insensitive of the Mayor. I don't believe it though. As a matter of fact, (Where are my Okinawa Supporters Yubaru, YuriOtani) I believe this mayor said these things on purpose. How else can they justify keeping the American base in Okinawa if you don't have enemies?

Okay that's some conspiracy theory outlandish stuff I just said. Unfortunately the result is the same. Japan is weakening ties with China. China is going to cut Japan off. When they are angry enough they'll forget about money and go for blood.

I know you don't think this can happen but it can. Furthermore you have this young man who just took over North Korean who wants to honor his deceased father with glory. You don't think so??? Just ask George W. Bush. He tried the honor his father with his pitiful war. They never had WMDs but he went on the war path anyway.

This is the thread where I think those who want American bases out of Okinawa need to speak up. How can Okinawans ever claim they don't need military bases there with guys like this insulting the Chinese. You have to remove the danger if you want to remove the security. This guy in Nagoya with his big mouth is saying things that are going to get Okinawans attacked. Okinawa's governor needs to be critical of mainland politicians who turn off their brain to mouth filter and risk the lives of Okinawans.

9 ( +14 / -5 )

So the Mayor's father was in Nanjing in 1945 and he says it didn't happen......sounds like a little kid who doesn't want to believe his father would lie to him. Damn it, admit it happened and let these wounds heal. All this opening of old wounds isn't doing anyone any good.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

How did this Mayor of Nagoya get to be a Politician... they're supposed to be smart about what subjects are politically sensitive. I somewhat doubt the Chinese top brass actually care about the actual comment but they're very good at spinning it to their favor. Japan is looking at giving the disputed islands names... Well, when a Mayor makes a stupid remark like this it makes it just that much more difficult to lay claim to those islands because China will use that remark to rile up its citizens and protest. Remarks like this are propaganda fodder for the Govt of China to use to get what they want. I'm not saying Nanjing didn't happen.... just saying its a topic best left alone.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Germany made it illegal for anyone to deny the holocaust and today they face little criticism over WWII... due in part to their admitted culpability for such crimes. Japan never owned up to their deeds during the war... and it will hound them forevermore. Figure it out, Nihon-jin.

27 ( +30 / -3 )

I agree with you both, admit, reconcile and move on.

8 ( +12 / -4 )

Seems like Japanese people are always in denial, especially when the truth is spoken. When will the Japanese people stand on their 2 feet and admit their wrong doings!!!

22 ( +30 / -8 )

I don't get it. Why bother denying something?

If a war happened decades ago (or even a 1000 years ago), but it was a known fact. What kind of shame is there in acknowledging it? Its not likely anyone you known or hardly anyone even living participated in it.

17 ( +19 / -3 )

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