China rules out summit with Japan

Refusing a summit meeting works against China. They are already seen by the world as aggressive and building up their military with territorial expansion aspirations. Now they are going to be seen as unwilling to resolve issues through dialogue.

Japan offered to meet and discuss things, china declined, that shows china is being beligerent at the very least. China has bigger asperations that it does not want to discuss.

Guess Japan Philipines and other nations that china is shouldering around should just arm up and make alliances now, show this arrogant bully that the rest wont be pushed around.

This always cracks me up. Reading China's replies in regards to other countries actions. They always recommend constructive dialog and restraint sounding like a fortune cookie reading. Meanwhile the antagonize their neighboring countries by sending government ships into the areas the state belong to them. It really makes you wonder if they are all there upstairs in the "think before speaking tank"

It's political posturing by both parties. Japan and China already know that there couldn't be agreements on the emotional issues that domestic audiences care about. But it's a shrewd move by Abe to show the Japanese that he's trying to settle those issues even if he knows it's not going anywhere.

When the economic situation in China worsens, I reckon we will see them being even more aggressive to their neighbours.

@Asianhometown

India? Singapore? Malaysia? The Philippines? Vietnam? Just to name a few.

And what war are you referring to? There is no war. Beijing has no interest in starting a war. Simply, if a war would to break over the Senkaku's, China would get there ass handed to them. Yea, yea, they had made significant military advances, blah blah blah. They are still far behind Japan in maritime and air power, and certainly far behind the US. They can not win a war. They know this. And they definitely can't win a war with the whole of Asia hedging against them. All this posturing is nothing more than an attempt to stir up nationalism to deflect attention away from domestic problems. China's economy is about to fall---hard. And that is just a fraction of the internal problems the party needs to deal with. Risking a war that will end in certain defeat risks losing legitimacy, losing legitimacy risks losing power. That is not something the party will allow to happen.

I don't think Abe is trying to isolate China so much as China is isolating itself through it's aggressive behavior. Abe doesn't need to do anything. Almost all of Asia has issues with China right now.

And don't give me the economic interdependence argument. This is about security, not economics. Security will trump economics every time.

China always says it wants to "negotiate" but is just their usual propaganda. When push comes to shove, they refuse. China needs Japan as an enemy, especially with the Chinese economy in huge trouble.

The US Senate made clear where they stand in a resolution passed the other day. Hint: it's not with China.

Converting to a consumer based economy will take time, possibly decades. The vast majority of Chinese can't even afford the cheap goods they produce. As inflation rises in China, so too will the price of Chinese goods. Exports will be more expensive and demand will drop. Foreign direct investment declines, Chinese unemployment skyrockets. You mean to suggest that the corrupt party elite that controls all the wealth will be the backbone of this consumer based economy? Not likely.

A summit would interfere with China's agenda... threatening their neighbors and taking land by force and intimidation.

@Asianhometown: Japan should try to lead rather than trying to provoke problems with its neighbors.

Hmm, proposing to talk sounds like leading to me, even if it only results in talking. You can't lead if someone doesn't want to follow, unless your idea of leading is capitulation by Japan.

@Asianhometown. Those countries are already talking and helping each other out.

Japan is giving the Philippians some old coast guard cutters and are in discussions with all the other AP countries being threatened by China.

There was also a consensus at the last ASEAN meeting in Brunei to help each other to deal with China's aggression. China attended but acted like everyone else was crazy. China has to take that stance since rationally discussing issues is not their style.

When and were did Abe call China the "evil empire"? And, who cares if Abe pisses off China. Everything pisses off China. No matter what Japan does it will piss off China. Japan the enemy and the party needs its enemy to stay in power. Whether these enemies are legitimate or not is completely irrelevant in Beijing. Gotta have that boogeyman.

They are metamorphosing into a CONSUMER based economy

Good luck to them with that. Half the people in PRC can barely afford to eat two meals a day. In fact 70% (almost a billion people) still exist on less than five dollars a day. 36% on less than two dollars a day. So what exactly are these "consumers" you speak of going to be consuming? And when pray tell do you expect them to start "consuming" anything that actually impacts the economy in a meaningful way?

This is not even to mention the appalling standards of health care, social services, education, infrastructure, policing and on and on and on. Someday, if PRC ever hopes to become a "consumer based economy" as you suggest they are going to have to start dealing with all of these social pressures ... wonder where that money is going to come from?

Abe is actually being very shrewd with this. True it is political posturing but Abe has certainly won this round! It's alwasy fun to watch China's responses. For example trying to cover their butts domesticaly by lying about their officials meeting Abe's aid or accusing other countries of agression when, in this case, Japan is offering to talk and China is sending their Coast Guard into waters administered by other countries. Try to spin this anyway you want but the point today goes to Japan...

China is acting like a gangster Big Boss, he cannot listen to reason, only for the benefit and the best for him. How long will this demon should impose whatever he wants.

China does not want to negotiate now, period.. They want weak leaderships in both Japan and Washington. Right now, having Abe in Japan and Obama in Washington, they do not want to strike the deal. They just do not care.

highball7,

The slowdown has nothing to with the PRC government; it's happening despite it - hundreds of billions being employed by the state to inflate the economy. The relative expensiveness of the currency, rising wages and other labor issues, corruption; they are all forcing companies to move to new countries, or returning home. The export economy is shutting down, but its 30 years of wealth has been wasted on an industrial machine that can only copy and mass-produce but not innovate; build cities where only the rich can afford to live, but there's not enough of them.

The export economy's collapse will not herald a consumer economy because only 1-in-4 has been lifted out of utter destitution. When the factory workers have no jobs, they will return to the fields, leaving even more empty cities and the party nobility squandering the last of their wealth on a futile attempt to appear to be more than a paper tiger., and a middle class trapped between.

China's goods built on low-skilled, low-wage labor is coming to an end. The US will find cheap products elsewhere as foreign firms do a mad dash out of China in search of countries that employ less hostile business practices than the Chinese.

China is not a market for US goods. They steal US technology and make pirated versions. It is harmful to US "good and services." Common knowledge.

And China keeping North Korea in check has nothing to do with helping the US. That is purely in China's interests. They don't want millions of starving, uneducated peasants bum rushing over the border.

Any leverage China has over the US in minimal at best.

I am not claiming, nor do I wish to be objective.

US companies are starting to bail out of China. As are the Japanese. That is not subjective, just fact.

Ok, China is making more pirated smartphones. So? What does that have to do with China being a marketplace for US goods. Nothing.

"China won't stay low-skilled manufacturing country forever."

I know. That was my point. US firms have no need to stay in China when wages go up. Kind of defeats the purpose, no?

You were agreeing that because China has provides cheap goods to the US, that they have some kind of leverage. As you mentioned, by way of contradicting yourself, that China will no longer be a low-skilled manufacturing country. So what reason do US firms have to stay there?

China has no leverage. If you disagree, provide some evidence rather than cutting and pasting my posts.

China's economy is about to fall---hard

Yup. Can't wait.

Not being magnanimous only hurts the PRC in the long-run. Their economic "miracle" is collapsing daily, and they've spoilwd all of their good will in the region with petty disputes and aggression.

Not that I'll shed any tears. I yearn for the day the Taipei government again rules the mainland, and Hong Kong is an independent nation in the Commonwealth.

Abe and Japanese politicians could be glad that China is not going to talk. Now. Great Asian unity is possible with other Asian nations that has grudge against China, Maybe China and S Korea will be friends?

Babies. Waaaaaaaaa!

Their talks of 'peace' with their neighbours are only hot air. China wants to punish Japan - that's what they really have a yen for......

Guru29AUG. 01, 2013 - 03:09AM JST China is probably the only situation in which they would support Japan. But the Js will go to Yasukuni Shrine and take everything back a step anyway.

Yes, the fascist war shrine is an important factor why the world doesn't trust Japan.

However, as a descendant of Yosuke Matsuoka, the biggest partner of Adolf Hitler in Japan and one of the 14 top war criminals who were promoted to gods by the Yasukuni war shrine, I don't think Shinzo Abe will ever stop his worshiping at the shrine.

Even Japan's fascist DPM, Taro Aso just urged Abe to go and pay respect to the Yasukuni gods recently.

And in the same speech, Taro Aso even suggested that Japan should learn the way of the Nazis on how Adolf Hitler changed the German constitution deceitfully in the 1930s.

Wow you are seriously off you medication..The Chinese Government is the most ruthless on the planet, even to the extent of their own people, they can not be trusted, they can not be validated, and they must be controlled!

Ok, I will get a better education when you stop spinning the facts. Sound like a deal? Good.

1) ODA started in 1978 and ended in 2007. That is not 40 years. It's 31 years.

2) Japan’s official asistance to China stands for over 60% of all bilateral aid provided to China in all donor countries. The official number is about 3.4 trillion yen. Far more than the 10 billion over 40 years that you claim. By the way, the 3.4 trillion number is an official number according to both Japan and China. Look it up.

3) After ODA ended in 2007, Japan gave 40 billion in loans to China in 2008 alone. 40 billion in loans in 1 year!!! That statistic alone refutes your whole twisted argument.

4) Japan was in no way required to pay ODA to China. It was designed as an overall geopolitical strategy to enhance economic cooperation between the two countries in order to provide a less hostile security environment. It certainly had nothing to do with atoning for atrocities committed during WWII, as you suggest. Japan used foreign aid as its primary foreign policy tool because it had no other choice. Money was the only tool in its arsenal.

5) From 1978-2007, Japan gave FAR more aid to China than any other country. You need to check the stats, homie. Taiwan isn't even in the top five. I have no idea where you come up with your claims.

6) If you want people to take your arguments seriously, try to be less arrogant and condescending. You don't know me or anything about my education--with is significant considering I had two master's degrees and currently working on my doctoral dissertation. In fact, as I have just overwhelming proven, you are the one in need of more education.

Ok, let's play. First, I like how you spent two whole days conducting research to prepare and write a rebuttal on a news forum. Some of my numbers may have been off. I am writing off the top of my head and I may have confused somethings. I didn't start the numbers game, you did. And the number of 10 billion over 40 years is inaccurate, which you admitted. Pots and kettles yo.

Second, you pick out typos to attack my argument. That's just weak. Obviously I know when ODA started. If you want to get technical, which seems to be your thing, ODA to China OFFICIALLY started in 1980 as that was when the agreement was initially signed and money wasn't given out until 1981. So, naturally, any loans or grants weren't officially part of ODA until after an agreement was reached. To get even more technical, ODA began as part of the Colombo plan in the 1950's, and I believe the first aid was given to India. Although I may be wrong. You should know since you conducted 2 days of research.

Third, I have no idea which CNN article you are referring to, but obviously you are the one cutting and pasting my quotes in google to search for anything you can find to discredit me. Again, that's weak. And since you like to get so specific and technical, ODA, which you so condescendingly pointed out, started in 1979, not 1972. You can't spin facts to prove your point. ODA is ODA, what loans or grants that were given before are not part ODA and have no relevance on the argument.

Since you love MOFA's website so much, you should know that the aid given to China far exceeds anything given by any other countries during that period.

You can google any numbers you want. That isn't my point. But since you brought it up, I believe that MOFA provides tables of the nations that gave assistance to China during the ODA period. Hong Kong, Taiwan, and the US aren't even on the list. If you are talking about foreign direct investment, which I was not in my original post, then yea, those countries made significant contributions. But, I was not referring to private investment, I was referring to government grants and aid.

If you can prove that Japan was ABSOLUTELY required to provide assistance to China by way of some mandate or law, then I will cede your point. They were not REQUIRED to do anything. Yes, there may have been some public sympathy involved, but the main idea behind ODA to China was balance of power. Japan was not happy with Washington's foreign policy stance at the time and Tokyo felt it needed to become more assertive in creating a peaceful region. Japan's relations with the USSR were rock and that was also a factor. ODA was designed to create friendly relations with China as a BALANCE OF POWER strategy. That's the reality. It was a geopolitical strategy, conceived and implemented by choice, not mandate.

My point in the original post is that China's economic rise was made possible----from the beginning---by the aid given my the Japanese. Even the Party officials in Beijing recognize that Japan's aid was the most significant factor. So, what is your point exactly? That you can spin numbers and quote me out of context to prove you're somehow more intelligent than me? You are attacking my math, but you are not even quoting me correctly. For example, 3.4 trillion YEN. You do know there is a huge disparity is giving statistics in yen vs. dollars, right?

And, again, you don't need to be condescending and make personal attacks to prove your point. In the end, it just shows how insecure you are. All you are doing is spinning numbers and saying I am wrong just because you say so. I am not trying to argue that Japan is better than China. I was just pointing out the China's rise was facilitated by Japanese loans and grants. This is common knowledge that virtually all scholars accept and point out. Why are you getting so bent out of shape about it?

By the way, I am not Japanese, so I didn't get away or gain anything. I just enjoying conducting research and having some debates. This is a news forum, and not a very serious one at that. Relax, dude.

It's good to talk.....

Amazing some puppets are all busy in action here.

Be alert that China does not want to talk. China just makes up all kinds of useless excuses.

As I said above, they do not want to strike a deal NOW as both Washington and Japan have been pretty tough.

Meantime, this is what Japan and US can prepare for the future..

Japan and US need to setting up a political and military alliance like NATO against China. China is hiding its crows until timing is perfect for them to strike back. That's what they have done to take over Tibet. Tibet invasion and massacre by China have not been forgotten by me. They just do not care. They only care about themselves. They CANNOT see the world.

@ off .....you are so far off on Japanese capabilities. If you think that the USA is holding a position here without sharing tech with the Japanese forces then you are very obtuse. That being said even with the mass numbers that China holds ( and the USA is almost equivalent with much more advanced tech ) there is no way china would hold its own with a combined effort of the USA with Japan also adding the smaller forces of Asia who have a shared interest in seeing china squashed. When I read all the jargon from china it reminds me of what Japan did to the USA .....no no we can talk ....please be peaceful ....watch everyone will wake up with china blasting away with its new tech

China must be shaking in their boots to hear india, Singapore? Malaysia? The Philippines? Vietnam? Joining forces. You actually think these countries will support Japan.

China is probably the only situation in which they would support Japan. But the Js will go to Yasukuni Shrine and take everything back a step anyway.

China's growth wouldn't have happened at all if it were not for guaranteed, low interest loans from the Japanese.

Mr.OssanAmerica, or other abroad Japanese people, I hope you people are going to be more discreet when you speak about your homeland's security related issues, especially ones between neighbors. We're hardly capable to get away so soon, when something happened, also our interest is where relationships with neighbors are calm and well, not in conflict, or confronting against. Which would be what neighborship has to be, even in everyone's actual life as well. Also a real national interest lies where Japan is avoiding maiking a war, which is prior to everything. You people should be more careful to say something stirring a clash of homeland, it's pretty irresponsible, harming us.

This needs to wait until it is seen who decides to front up at Yasukuni on August 15.

boo hoo

BigPoopin,

Japan's ODA and loan interest loans accounted for less than 10b for over 40 years. That's nothing. And don't forget why Japan HAD to offer ODA to China because Japan DIDN'T have to pay any retribution and indemnity since the war. Its called insignificant payback. Don't brag about something like this, its actually quite shameful.

Its US's, Taiwan, and Hong Kong's investment that propagated China's tremendous growth. Mainly the US in the past 15 years. Japan's investment were almost insignificant compared to even Taiwan.

Please, get a better education on the subject before you opine.

I doubt it. Japan has to deal with the plain fact of China's ever growing leverage with the U.S., not just by being the leading purchaser of debt and keeping the U.S. economy humming along, but as the world's largest market potential for American goods and services, and keeping North Korea in check with strong influence over the closed nation.

Difficult to disagree with that post sfjp330, but your views of course will be unpopular here.

hidingout,

Where the heck do you get this info from? 1980s archives? Get with the program guy, its 2013. Stop projecting false information. What you're saying is the absolute contrary to the truth.

China has solved brought 70% of its people out of poverty since the 80s. Its the biggest shift in human history. That is the reasons why we're all talking about this China Miracle.

You can hate China and the Chinese but you shouldn't lie on and propagate false information on these boards. Its a deplorable act.

Steven,

Its called stimulus! Every single country in the world does that. You know who does that the most? US. What do you think QE stands for? And look at Japan, what do you think Abe has been doing? The billions that China pumped into its economy actually works for its growth. There is a reason why its growing at 7% while all the rest of the BRIC are faltering.

You want to get a comparison, just look at Japan. Case close. All those hundreds of billions that the BOJ helped manipulated had turned into what exactly?

Try to understand how great China is really doing instead of your mindless rants. Just because you don't like China, doesn't mean you should diminish its achievements and contributions. Without the growth of China, Japan's economy would've died a long time ago.

Toshiko...What other Asian nations are you referring to: like the great and powerful nations of Philippines or Vietnam. By Mr. Abe traveling to Asia trying to isolate China and calling China the evil empire, how is this helping to resolve or build a relationship with China. Yes I hope China and S. Korea will unit in oppostion to Mr. Abe and his racial policies because the innocent Japanese, Chinese, and Asia will suffer since there is no winner in a war. All parties will suffer. Japan should try to lead rather than trying to provoke problems with its neighbors. China and S. Korea are not the same countries 70years ago.

Very funny, the process how we instill in the minds of our citizens the popuganda of creating an evil empire or aggressor. Sometimes it makes me very nervous when looking at media reports.

There is no point pretending it was China that changed the status quo of the senkaku, because it wasn't. Ishihara kicked off these island disputes this time round. China will of course refuse any summit before August 15th, which Abe and all Japanese politicians know. Japan is not offering to settle the territorial row anyway. In fact, Japan does not even acknowledge there is a row to be settled, and insists that there is nothing to even discuss. So Mr. Abe the revisionist, denier of 731 and Nanjing, and the first PM to declare China a threat and start a military build up is really extending an olive branch is he? No one on earth is stupid enough to believe this surely.

China is probably the only situation in which they would support Japan. But the Js will go to Yasukuni Shrine and take everything back a step anyway.

Yes, the fascist war shrine is an important factor why the world doesn't trust Japan.

However, as a descendant of Yosuke Matsuoka, the biggest partner of Adolf Hitler in Japan and one of the 14 top war criminals who were promoted to gods by the Yasukuni war shrine, I don't think Shinzo Abe will ever stop his worshiping at the shrine.

Even Japan's fascist DPM, Taro Aso just urged Abe to go and pay respect to the Yasukuni gods recently.

And in the same speech, Taro Aso even suggested that Japan should learn the way of the Nazis on how Adolf Hitler changed the German constitution deceitfully in the 1930s.

Proposing a meeting is taking the lead but going around Asia and claiming china is the evil kind of piss off China. Don't u think? So is Mr Abe really sincere about the meeting or like the Chinese said "empty slogans" for political means

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, who cemented his grip on power in an upper house election last week, has been signalling a desire for dialogue with China

His whole political career, Abe has had a desire for better relations with China and Korea, right?

He's just misunderstood, the poor guy.

Big poppin. China must be shaking in their boots to hear india, Singapore? Malaysia? The Philippines? Vietnam? Joining forces. You actually think these countries will support Japan. You certainly don't know Asia. Man. I starting to get afraid to hear Singapore joining forces with Japan. Give me a break!!! You also think Obama will come to Japan's aide. Is he going to draw "the red line" like he drew for Syria.

China is not a market for US goods.

Yes. That must be why the USA have zero interest in doing business in China.

China's goods built on low-skilled, low-wage labor is coming to an end.

I think I read this week that Chinese smartphones made up 10% of the global sales in the recent quarter. China won't stay low-skilled manufacturing country forever.

Any leverage China has over the US in minimal at best.

Objective facts in your posts are minimal at best.

I don't understand why all you posters are saying China's economic situation is worsening. They are not worsening. They are metamorphosing into a CONSUMER based economy so they don't have to be heavily relied upon an export based economy. You people really don't have any clue about how dominant the Chinese engine is running do you?

Slower in growth is actually GOOD for China and the rest of the world. Its called Macromanagment at the highest levels.

The Chinese are not patching the wounds like Abe is doing. They are willing to sacrifice short term growth and absorb these growing pains in order to get China in a soft landing position. What does that mean you ask? That means a span out pivot from an export oriented economy to a true domestic consumer based economy that can weather any extrinsic elements. It means a draw down from 10% to 9% then to 8.5, 8, now 7.5%. They even manipulated an artificial "cash crunch" just to get the message across to the banking institutions to get their houses in order. Who does that? Can you imagine the US doing that? All hell will break lose. Call them a commie or whatevers, but that top down approach get the job done.

Do you know what Japan is in such a miserable state? Its because Japanese consumers aren't buying. They have been cutting back for so many years and this savings is god mentality is killing Japan's economy. If you can't export fast enough and your own consumers aren't spending at all, where is the growth coming from? Its just a vicious cycle that will continue to spiral and weaken Japanese competitiveness.

And all these criticism against China for being a currency manipulator and a closed off market to the world. Well, take a look at Japan. Its doing exactly what China is doing. Which is smart for a change. Any criticism that you have against China, just look at your own mirror. The difference is China is strong enough to withstand outside pressure. They just don't give a crap. Japan isn't. A couple more motion in these congressional hearings and you will soon find out where US stands, especially the republicans.

Abe's 'empty slogans'. Response; 'I dont have to listen to these wild allegations..' 'We want to talk, but we wont tolerate any suggestions from China' ..Good job Abe, I hope China doesn't attack before 2020, when JP will possess a few anti-ballistic missile capabilities.

OssanAmerica Jul. 31, 2013 - 07:10AM JST Refusing a summit meeting works against China. They are already seen by the world as aggressive and building up their military with territorial expansion aspirations. Now they are going to be seen as unwilling to resolve issues through dialogue.

I doubt it. Japan has to deal with the plain fact of China's ever growing leverage with the U.S., not just by being the leading purchaser of debt and keeping the U.S. economy humming along, but as the world's largest market potential for American goods and services, and keeping North Korea in check with strong influence over the closed nation. Facts are China has grown to a critical state of importance to much of the rest of the world's nations as well due to its market, as a manufacturing base, and its capital investments. The growing political influence now from Africa to the Middle East as economic muscle. China is important player to the rest of the world not just the U.S.

Abe's rhetorics combined with poor follow through to blame.

Now they are going to be seen as unwilling to resolve issues through dialogue.

So that's the reason for Abe's representative to make up stories about the ghost Chinese official that he met? And for Japan to tell the lie that it doesn't have any territorial dispute with China?

If Japan is really willing to settle its territorial dispute with China, it just need to comply with the numerous WWII agreements/ peace treaties it signed with the Allies such as the Potsdam Declaration, Japanese Instrument of Surrender and San Francisco Peace Treaty which basically say the Ryukyu islands, South Kuril islands and Diaoyu islands are all not part of Japan.

So instead of trying to regain the territories it lost to the Allies in WWII by force, why can't Japan remain peaceful and stick to all these peace treaties /agreements?

LOL, this is Japanese foreign relations, Japanese officials are really good at making up stories. “The China Daily also said statements by Abe adviser Isao Iijima that a summit between Abe and President Xi Jinping could occur in the “not-too-distant future” were misleading.” And here from the Japanese source, “But this does not mean there will never be one in the future.” Heck, wishful thinking from the Japanese side.