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Edano says being nuclear-free won't hurt Japan's economy

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Edano for PM!

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

So no growth until 2030??!? How about now, how about investing now, how about having a future now, not 13 years from now!

Edano’s comments come as the government worked to hammer out a new energy policy in the wake of last year’s Fukushima atomic crisis, the worst in a generation that led to Japan switching off its 50 nuclear reactors.

Isn't that wrong? I thought most of them were already off by then due to problems and maintenance

1 ( +4 / -3 )

18 not 13

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Total nonsense. This will hasten the demise of Japan.

-12 ( +8 / -20 )

“I don’t think the zero scenario is negative for Japan’s economy. On the contrary, it can create growth as efforts to develop renewable energy and improve energy-efficiency could boost domestic demand,” he added.

Finally! A voice of reason! Japan can develop alternative energy resources and become nuclear free and 2030 is spot on with the time it would take to achieve it, but they have to stop all this BS bickering and get on with it. And, they should have locked Ozawa up when they had the chance. There is no way Japan can become nuclear free within ten years, regardless of what that campaigning crim tells people. This is a chance for Japan to come out from the nuclear cloud and shine in the world as a leader in alternative energies. Just stop the spit-balling and get on with it!

6 ( +11 / -5 )

It is not nonsense. Japan can develop new technologies and sell them to other countries. Japan will see a tremendous economic boom in the future. Agreed disillusioned. They must get on with it right away.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

Well that's very encouraging coming from the horse's mouth or rather the Trade Minister with his finger on the button. He was a known anti nuclear energy, but I think it was back in Mar., when he stated he'll put personal opinions to one side. The nuclear village will go into over drive to bring him down.

Does he think he can run for the next PM slot?

-1 ( +10 / -11 )

It'd be interesting if this guy could actually decide something without contradicting himself a few weeks later. In January this same moron said Japan would not suffer if no NPPs were reactivated. Within a week he claimed he hadn't said it and started warning about blackouts in summer if they did not restart NPPs.

And I don't think we need to point out the 'not harmful to human health' 180s this guy has done. Seriously, where did he get his qualifications from to be where he is, aside from the usual required game of musical chairs?

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

Edano I believe is a habitual liar as opposed to a compulsive liar in the sense that he lies to cover up his previous lies.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

This is absolutely unacceptable. Edano is getting his dressing down now and will be singing a different tune by the end of the week.

We will never allow nuclear power to be phased out of Japan. It is our cash cow.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

Next week he'll be running for office

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

We will never allow nuclear power to be phased out of Japan. It is our cash cow.

What.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

One more time for emphasis

I dont think the zero scenario is negative for Japans economy.

On the contrary, it can create growth as efforts to develop renewable energy and improve energy-efficiency could boost domestic demand

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

It might be just lip service but this might be the first time I think I have heard any Japanese politician say something that implied a challenge but was aiming at progress, looking toward the future instead of buried in the past.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

No no no. Japan is just a sinking old people's home. Getting rid of nuclear power just seals the coffin lid tight.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

In fact, it might spike a quest for new clean and renewable sources and bring out the best in the creative minds , might lead to new tek, which in the end would indeed benefit any economy that developed it.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Nuclear-free future of Japan won't be a threat to world's third economy because by 2030 Japan won't be anywhere near the top. But Edano speaks truth - renewables have stronger developing future markets than nuclear energy. You don't need to keep kids inside and eat relabelled food when a solar panel breaks.

Equating nuclear energy and economic advancement is a fallacy. It did nothing to stop or even slow down Japan's economic depression from the 80's to the present.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

So let me get this straight.. I've been saying this whole time (after careful research with an intuitive mind) exactly what Edano said? Hmm well that's because its the damn truth.. Noda knows it edano knows it, the united states knows it. Every leader of every country knows it. Who does not see it are those hippies protesting the restart. Safety is important don't get us wrong. But so is economy. Everyone is fed through the economy,.. everyone has a car through the economy... Manufacturing and heavy industry need ampel and cheap electricity to be competitive in the world market. Otherwise they can not exist. Working people provide money to commercial buisiness. It is all interlinked. What I would like to see is the liquified natural gas port in vladyvlastok finished and the japanese to start building solid oxide fuel cell technology; such as what bloom energy has created. You should all brief yourselve with it. :)

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Oh plz. Nuke-free and instead use oil, coal to generate electricity, then make Japan polluted isles. People need to wake up, until renewable energy is ready, nuke is the better option.

And you believe words from politician? -_-

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

People need to wake up, until renewable energy is ready, nuke is the better option.

It is ready. And unless people adopt more renewables, renewables will not progress.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

"I don’t think the zero scenario is negative for Japan’s economy. On the contrary, it can create growth as efforts to develop renewable energy and improve energy-efficiency could boost domestic demand,” he added.

Tokyo ushered in new rules last month that require utilities to buy all electricity produced from renewable sources, including solar and wind power, at above-market rates for two decades, to stoke “green” power investment.

At 6 trillion yen a year in FIT alone to go with 0 instead of 15%, just where does he think this growth is coming from? Not to mention the cost of panels and land alone would be another hundred trillion yen. The price increase due to FIT and increased transmissions costs would be devastating for companies, since they would receive most of the burden for consumption.

Many major companies have already mentioned increased uncertainty in energy and energy prices as a major reason for economic pessimism, so I really don't see how this will even be possible.

Lets also not forget that it is estimated to cost four years of electrical production to produce a solar panel (about 400kW for a 100W panel). Even if Japan was not already suffering from mandatory cutbacks, you could only put a small fraction of electrical production to manufacturing more energy, and it would seriously hamper the ability to produce companies and jobs within Japan. Due to the lack of excess power, it is highly unlikely that solar cells would be able to be produced within Japan, and likely not by Japanese companies otherwise.

Sure he's the minister or trade and industry now, but his track record is all over the place. Foreign affairs, Ryukyu and Kuril head, cabinet secretary (during fukushima), this guy is just looking to mooch off public sentiment (which he will force by making more ridiculous statements) to clean his hands.

And what of the Kyoto protocol? Without nuclear, it is absolutely impossible to meet the demand. Didn't this guy vote for it? Or does he want to damage the world in exchange for a few years of economic stagnation at best?

-2 ( +7 / -9 )

Thomas AndersonAug. 07, 2012 - 10:48PM JST

It is ready. And unless people adopt more renewables, renewables will not progress.

Renewables are NOT ready, and regardless of that there is progress because it makes for good publicity. People need not adopt it, the businesses are the ones that drive demand anyway.

-2 ( +7 / -9 )

Nuclear power is a drug addiction. Free yourself from addiction first. Japan needs to start investing more in green energy.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Come on basroil, you'll only need to look at Germany. Solar is already about to reach grid-parity. Pretty soon, people will be paying renewable electricity for less than the cost of fossil fuels.

The only people who will suffer from this are the big utility companies, which we certainly don't need. They are going the way of the Dodos, just like with their Fossil Nukes.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

15 years there should be a new energy source

TO BAD BIG OIL HAS THE PATIENTS

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Re-Repost: Waste to Energy power plants instead of incinerators that wastes energy. Italy is the same way as Japan in assets are not being utilized in Italy 6.7% of waste goes to the waste to energy power plant, Denmark 65% of waste goes to the waste to energy power plant , France 42.3% of waste goes to the waste to energy power plant , Germany 40% of waste go to the waste to energy power plant , Sweden 55% of waste go to the waste to energy power plant. Japan only has 7 waste to enery power plants that may get 1% of the waste.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

We don't have ample sources of lignite like Germany which encourages them to give up on nuclear energy so easily. We want the yen to depreciate for our exporters then we can't rely on cheap petrodollars in the mid-term to fuel our oil-fired plants. While we skeptically wait on our green energy engineers to come up with a solution, Japan must once again stock up on its dollar reserves pretty soon.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

The cost of renewable energy is going down every year, why? It's because the cost of renewable TECHNOLOGY is going down every year. The cost of renewable energy has NEVER went up, it has only went DOWN and will ALWAYS GO DOWN! The cost of solar in Germany has went down by what, 70% in the last 10 years?

Just like the cost of CPUs will NEVER GO UP at the same performance, the cost of renewable energy will ALSO never go up. Solar is an information technology, just like the CPUs. Fossil Nukes are NOT an information technology. In fact, given that Fossil Nukes are FINITE RESOURCES, their cost will ALWAYS GO UP!

Renewable energy will only get cheaper and cheaper as people adopt more and more! You can't say the same about Fossil Nukes.

So I think that you have two choices: Pay more for Fossil Nukes, or pay less for renewables. I think that the answer is pretty clear and obvious.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

It would appear the minister may be reading "Reinventing Fire - Bold Business Solutions for The New Energy Era" by Amory Lovins. Looking at the business models for the development of nuclear, coal, oil and natural gas, we need to look at resources with an eye to the highest and best use principles. Wasting these resources to boil water has consequences, and yet Mr. Lovins is pointing out the model for decentralizing energy and smart grids to handle small producers as being inevitable and well on its way to becoming a reality. Holding fast to technologies like coal, oil, natural gas and nuclear power may seem reasonable because of the infrastructure in place, but it may be based on the same "wisdom" of holding fast to making typewriters, LP records, and photographic film. Humanity may look back at this transitional period as a call for a paradigm shift pushing Japan ahead of what will ultimately occur in time.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Thomas, solar is NOT an answer in Japan. While a lot of people have rejected atomic power, there is nothing to replace it. Fossil fuels will kill many more than Fukushima. Then there is the added expense of fossil fuels. So what we have is more factories closing, more cost in money and health.

The sun seems so bight at the peak of the sunset. Japan will shift from not enough workers to too many. Why it is just too expensive to manufacture in Japan. The elite and english conversation teachers love it but it has placed Japan in decline. The sun is setting on Japan Inc and it will be set before most people realize it.

George, there is no reinvention of Japan Inc. Two things needs to happen, a much weaker yen 130 to 1 dollar and plentiful cheap electric. The yen is too strong and people have rejected "green" energy and if does not work with heavy industry. While the sun will set on Japan Inc, it can also rise on a new Japan. What the new Japan will be is yet to be seen. My guess it will be a much smaller population and poor. While the rich will continue to be rich with their ownership of foreign assets.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Japan, lead the way, you can not afford nuclear power, it nearly saw your demise, still could, nothing unclear about that.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

YuriOtaniAug. 08, 2012 - 02:06AM JST

solar is NOT an answer in Japan. While a lot of people have rejected atomic power, there is nothing to replace it

@Yuri, Japan needs to think outside of box. It does not have to be a solar. It does not have to be a windmill. There are rich resources around Islands of Japan. It takes good engineering skills to convert it to fuel. Let's talk about utilizing it effectively. .

0 ( +3 / -3 )

globalwatcher, hydroelectric is almost at the max. Tidal sounds nice but in the event of a tsunami it can be damaged too easy. Perhaps one day we could put solar plants in orbit and transmit the power to earth. You are mistaken, there is almost no resources in Japan with the exception of trees and some coal. Farmland is very limited, there are a lot of mountains. The population of Japan is falling which in the long run is a good thing. I do not see any alternates to atomic power except fossil fuels. Japan does not have the money to buy them and it will get worse. Energy demand will fall as it becomes more expensive but so will the jobs. Destructive deflation is the future of Japan. The elite have money so they do not care. If they can not sell their product made in China in Japan, then they can sell it to others. Soon there will be the rich new lords and ladies of Japan and the peasants. As the standard of living decreases so will the population. Perhaps that is their plan.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

@yURI, I am posting all possible options for Japan.

A combination of Methane Hydrate and natural gas exploration and kinetic energy, windmills, sawave, solar and hydraulic (all of them) has to be addressed aggressively by top Japanese engineering teams. You do not want to put a dozen eggs in one basket for risk averting strategy. You need to explore all of them so that Japan can free itself from nuclear energy.

In my humble opinion, Japan is not investing aggresive enough and this is where national investment has to go instead of building bridges to nowhere. Time is money. Just do it.

The first things that come to mind when thinking of submarine energy resources are methane hydrate and natural gas. Japan is said to be blessed with methane hydrate reserves whose volume is 100 times its current annual gas consumption. But exploration technologies for this material are still in their infancy. Submarine natural gas is also abundant in the East China Sea, where Japan and China are at loggerheads.

There are a number of other potential energy sources in the oceans around Japan. One is the kinetic energy of waves washing against Japan's 34,000 km of coastlines. A 2010 report on wave-power generation by a panel of the Tokyo Metropolitan Government estimated that at least 300 million to 400 million kilowatts of electricity could be generated by wave power. Another estimate shows that within the range of 30 km from the coastlines, at a depth of 100 meters, there are potential energy sources equivalent to more than 10 nuclear power plants.

Sea-wave power can be utilized to generate electricity in two different ways: one is to let that power run a generator directly and the other is to float a hollow box in the sea so that air movement created by the vertical motion of waves inside the box will rotate the turbine of a generator.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Politicians rarely know anything about economics. In fact, it's safe to say that WHATEVER any politician wants to do will HURT the economy. The only good they can really good is STEP ASIDE.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

This irresponsible lunatic, has no idea what to say.

I would ask these people who fear nuclear power allow themselves to be traveling by plane, car, train, etc, etc, for fear of accidents. The truth is that there is a 100% system safe, foolproof.

This utopia that is sold by these populist politicians are tailor made for stupid people.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

The truth is that there is a 100% system safe, foolproof.

On "Tofu" Isalnds of Japan?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

globalwatcher, all the sources you state are just pipe dreams. Geo thermal would work if they could get the permissions. The same people would want no nukes block other sources as well. No matter what until the other plants are available atomic plants are needed.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

No matter what until the other plants are available atomic plants are needed.

Agreed. Let's dream big for change, and it will be done. Stay positive and progressive!

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

For those who are giving random thumb downs and nay-saying without knowing any facts about renewables, please answer me with these facts:

As of 2011, the cost of PV has fallen well below that of nuclear power and is set to fall further.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Power#Economics

Shi Zhengrong has said that, as of 2012, unsubsidised solar power is already competitive with fossil fuels in India, Hawaii, Italy and Spain. He said "We are at a tipping point. No longer are renewable power sources like solar and wind a luxury of the rich. They are now starting to compete in the real world without subsidies". "Solar power will be able to compete without subsidies against conventional power sources in half the world by 2015"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Power#Economics

between late-2009 and mid-2011 the wholesale cost of solar modules dropped approximately 70%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_parity

there remains the widespread belief that concentrating solar power (CSP) will be even less expensive than PV, although this is suitable for industrial-scale projects only, and thus has to compete at wholesale pricing. One company stated in 2011 that CSP costs 12¢(US)/kWh to produce in Australia, and expects this to drop to 6¢(US)/kWh by 2015 due to improvements in technology and reductions in equipment manufacturing costs. Greentech Media predicts that LCoE of CSP and PV power will lower to $0.07 - $0.12/kWh by 2020 in California.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_parity

In Japan, too!

According to PVWatts a one-kilowatt system of panels (four typical panels) ideally placed in Matsumoto, Nagano will produce 1187 kWh of electricity a year. Over the 25 year lifetime, the system will produce about 29,675 kWh (not accounting for the small effects of system degradation, about 0.25% a year). If this system costs $5,000 to install ($5 per watt), the LCoE = 5,000/29,675 ~= 17 cents per kWh. This is lower than the average Japanese residential rate of ~19.5 cents, which means that, in this simple case, PV has reached grid parity for residential users, the "1st phase".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_parity

Germany — 26% of Electricity from Renewable Energy in 1st Half of 2012 (up from 20% LAST YEAR, mostly comes from solar)

http://cleantechnica.com/2012/07/26/germany-26-of-electricity-from-renewable-energy-in-1st-half-of-2012/

Germany - As of 2012, solar's % of total electricity consumption is 5.3%, up from 3.2% LAST YEAR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Germany

solar PV was cutting peak electricity prices by up to 40 per cent,

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2012/why-generators-are-terrified-of-solar-44279

2 ( +3 / -1 )

So, here are some of the "inconvenient truths" about renewables:

1) Solar is about to or has already reached grid-parity, which means that the price is already equal to or lower than the existing prices of electricity, such as fossil fuels and nuclear, EVEN IN JAPAN.

2) Solar is so cheap and abundant at peak power that it massively cuts down the electricity prices.

3) Germany has managed to increase their total solar power production by 47% IN A YEAR. Basically, DOUBLING EVERY TWO YEARS, just like the CPU's "Moore's Law", which roughly means that the performance of the CPU doubles every two years.

4) Germany has managed to increase their total shares of renewable energy by 6% IN A YEAR! (which mostly comes from solar)
0 ( +3 / -3 )

Thomas AndersonAug. 08, 2012 - 11:46AM JST

So, here are some of the "inconvenient truths" about renewables:

1) Solar is about to or has already reached grid-parity, which means that the price is already equal to or lower than the existing prices of electricity, such as fossil fuels and nuclear, EVEN IN JAPAN.

2) Solar is so cheap and abundant at peak power that it massively cuts down the electricity prices.

3) Germany has managed to increase their total solar power production by 47% IN A YEAR. Basically, DOUBLING EVERY TWO YEARS, just like the CPU's "Moore's Law", which roughly means that the performance of the CPU doubles every two years.

4) Germany has managed to increase their total shares of renewable energy by 6% IN A YEAR! (which mostly comes from solar)

Here's a few more facts about your beloved Germany that is actually pertinent to Japan.

Germany's electrical prices are the highest in for the major economies, even higher than Japan. If Japan had electrical prices as high as Germany, there would be practically no manufacturing here, since all other costs are also higher. Japan's economy would tumble like a rock thrown out an airplane.

Germany is unable to produce enough panels and relies on imports, making a huge trade imbalance and limiting job creation to temporary and migratory jobs. Japan has a higher production capability normally, but with a lack of surplus electrical energy required to make panels, they too will need to import. Importing will raise costs, lower exports, and greatly skew the trade balance.

Germany has spent more on solar to get to just 4% annual production than France or Japan have spent on nuclear. And that's without including research and development. Japan simply doesn't have the cash reserves to invest in something that has a production life of less than 20 years (when you include electrical cost to produce, weathering, snow removal, inverter replacement, etc)

Germany chopped down enough trees to build solar parks that they made solar not be Eco-friendly. Japan is still a signatory of the Kyoto protocol, and producing millions of tons of CO2 to offset it only near the end of product life of a panel is not really an option. They would either have to abolish the protocol and hurt everyone, or find something else.

While there are alternatives to nuclear, solar is NOT one of them, at least not in Japan. Wind too is very difficult due to the mountains, and offshore wind is nearly ten times more expensive than even solar. Japan simply can't bare the costs associated with these technologies

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

Thomas AndersonAug. 08, 2012 - 11:36AM JST

According to PVWatts a one-kilowatt system of panels (four typical panels) ideally placed in Matsumoto, Nagano will produce 1187 kWh of electricity a year. Over the 25 year lifetime, the system will produce about 29,675 kWh (not accounting for the small effects of system degradation, about 0.25% a year). If this system costs $5,000 to install ($5 per watt), the LCoE = 5,000/29,675 ~= 17 cents per kWh. This is lower than the average Japanese residential rate of ~19.5 cents, which means that, in this simple case, PV has reached grid parity for residential users, the "1st phase".

If that was actually true, why is FIT 42 yen? The point of FIT is to make systems viable, not profitable. Edano has been a big proponent of FIT, yet you are stating it isn't needed.

And your " 0.25%" is false, almost all research has put panel efficiency at 10% drop in 10 years and 20% for 20 years. This is enough so that you get a substantial increase to ~19/kWh, not including the FACT that MEXT puts independent solar panels at 450 yen per W installed (at current yen prices that would be $5750), and suddenly they are not at "parity" which is actually just 6 yen delivered for nuclear and up to 14 yen for fossil fuels.

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

Wrong, wrong and wrong basroil. You haven't bothered to check my facts.

basroil

Germany's electrical prices are the highest in for the major economies, even higher than Japan. If Japan had electrical prices as high as Germany, there would be practically no manufacturing here, since all other costs are also higher.

Wrong, Germany's industries pay just 0.09 Euro/kWh, which is below the EU average. AND it has LOWERED in the last few years.

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/table.do?tab=table&plugin=1&language=en&pcode=ten00114

Japan simply doesn't have the cash reserves to invest in something that has a production life of less than 20 years (when you include electrical cost to produce, weathering, snow removal, inverter replacement, etc)

The average Japanese household will only pay about extra 77 yen per month for the FIT.

Japan is still a signatory of the Kyoto protocol, and producing millions of tons of CO2 to offset it only near the end of product life of a panel is not really an option. They would either have to abolish the protocol and hurt everyone, or find something else.

Germany has DROPPED their CO2 emissions by 2.4% in 2011 - despite dumping nuclear:

The latest data, which includes a 2.4 percent drop in CO2 emissions to 799.7 million tons, shows that the German emissions reduction targets can be reached "also with an accelerated nuclear exit," Flasbarth said.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-12/german-carbon-emissions-drop-2-percent-on-renewables-weather.html

While there are alternatives to nuclear, solar is NOT one of them, at least not in Japan.

Sources say there are plenty of potentials for solar in Japan.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

basroil

If that was actually true, why is FIT 42 yen? The point of FIT is to make systems viable, not profitable. Edano has been a big proponent of FIT, yet you are stating it isn't needed.

No well actually the point of FIT is to be profitable so that people will have more incentives to install renewables.

I'm not saying that FIT isn't needed, I'm obviously saying that it is needed. The analysis is (according to PVWatts) saying that if the solar panel costs $5000, then it will reach grid-parity. But I don't think that solar panels currently cost $5000, more like $10000+. Not to mention that the cost of installing solar panels in Japan, is actually the highest in the world, due to many factors like maybe land, taxes and other complications.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

globalwatcherAug. 08, 2012 - 05:13AM JST

A combination of Methane Hydrate and natural gas exploration and kinetic energy, windmills, sawave, solar and hydraulic (all of them) has to be addressed aggressively by top Japanese engineering teams. You do not want to put a dozen eggs in one basket for risk averting strategy. You need to explore all of them so that Japan can free itself from nuclear energy.

They already have been.

Mountains make windmills limited to low profile cities like Hamamatsu (except for ACT, nothing else is above six stories or so, much less in the windmill area). Problem is that windmills disrupt ground radar used to make sure planes don't start smashing into each other over populated areas. The only solutions are applying stealth technologies (some "advanced" radars simply ignore the area, but that doesn't solve the issue), but those drive up costs and drive down efficiency.

Seawave/tide are about as reliable as a bankrupt government. Sea life tends to ignore the fact they are machines and completely clog up the systems. You can plate them, but that also gets corroded over time. And that's before the two major obstacles of laying power cables and rerouting ships. Offshore wind (floating, since I doubt they want to build standing structures in 300m+ deep water) shares the same issues.

Hydrothermal has the issue of increased earthquakes and heavy metals pollution for pumped systems, and the fact that most of the other good spots have been taken up by onsen hotels.

So lets go on to methane clathrate... Unless you want to make global warming a real trend, you would need to avoid it. Even ignoring the fact that you will be releasing millions of tons of CO2 extra per GWh over nuclear, a single accident could release substantial amounts, and it affects global warming more than sixty times more than CO2.

While there are alternatives to nuclear, there are none commercially ready, and some, like these, that will likely never be ready in Japan.

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

Thomas AndersonAug. 08, 2012 - 01:17PM JST

You tend to look at a very narrow view, the use side only. Research the full cycle and you will see why your stances on solar are misguided.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

basroil

You tend to look at a very narrow view, the use side only. Research the full cycle and you will see why your stances on solar are misguided.

But somehow, you are unable to explain that using facts? I have offered my facts, so where are yours?

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

I think that this is the problem with the people's ASSUMPTIONS about renewables - that they are too expensive, etc, and hence they are confused or unsure or overall negative about it. But simple facts show that those assumptions are no longer true. People are often confused about renewables because they simply don't know the FACTS.

All I have seen in this thread are ASSUMPTIONS about renewables, but NO facts. FACTS have countered all of the misguided assumptions about renewables.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Thomas AndersonAug. 08, 2012 - 02:02PM JST

But somehow, you are unable to explain that using facts? I have offered my facts, so where are yours?

I haven't seen facts in your posts, only articles that referenced "facts" that were not properly cited, along with "analysis" based solely on opinion. If you want that type of information, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_footprint http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/03/the-ugly-side-o.html

Note I consider that information, not fact, as there have been few peer reviewed articles on the subject, possibly due to political considerations. Edano probably wouldn't be very happy telling the nation that going solar would mean producing twice as much CO2 as nuclear, on top of the eight times higher cost (due to fit). The economics are just not there to say it won't hurt Japan, and in fact all the people working under him have said time and time again that 0 percent would shift the 2% annual growth to near 0% or even down to -5% (see the article contents)

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

Ok, so in your defense you demand "stricter" facts and proofs, even though again, you offer none yourself. I see how that goes.

Do you think that bloomberg is an unreliable source? If so, why?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-12/german-carbon-emissions-drop-2-percent-on-renewables-weather.html

Is this not peer-reviewed, scientific data?

http://umweltbundesamt.de/uba-info-presse/2012/pd12-017_weniger_treibhausgase_mit_weniger_atomenergie.htm

I am not claiming that I am an expert, but unless you can prove me otherwise, then I'll just assume that my sources are correct.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Here's your "scientific, peer-reviewed" data (in English):

http://umweltbundesamt.de/uba-info-presse-e/2012/pe12-017_less_greenhouse_gases_with_less_nuclear_energy.htm

Greenhouse gas emissions (GHG) decreased in 2011 by 26.5 per cent compared to the 1990 index year. This again exceeds the Kyoto reduction target of 21 per cent. Despite the upward economic trend and the decommissioning of eight nuclear power plants, GHG emissions declined by 2 per cent compared to 2010, making it equal to levels in the 2009 crisis year. Says UBA President Flasbarth, “Emissions were in fact reduced due to relatively mild weather, but the growing share of green electricity resulted in lower emissions as did fewer exports of electricity. In consideration of the change in energy policy and the low proportion of power from nuclear power plants, these emissions figures are a measure of success.

Germany has managed to exceed the Kyoto protocol target, while at the same time dumping nuclear and letting their economy grow. If Germany can do it, then why can't Japan, I wonder?

Carbon dioxide: CO2 emissions declined by 2.4 per cent compared to 2010. This significant decrease owes largely to lower demand for heating energy as a result of milder weather. This effect is especially noticeable in natural gas consumption and in the demand for heating oil. High prices for heating oil drove purchasing down and boosted use of stocks. The energy consumption at refineries last year continued to decline due to lower processing volumes. Although the share of nuclear energy dropped significantly, emissions from electricity production rose only slightly. Less electricity was exported, and more electricity from renewable energies was produced. These facts are also reflected in the data reported for 2011 by energy suppliers and industrial facilities that participate in the European emissions trading scheme (ETS). The CO2 emissions of the energy sector reported sank by between 2 and 6 per cent. However, industrial process-related emissions, from the chemicals and metals industries for example, rose in tandem with economic development.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Again, here are the "inconvenient truths" about nuclear and renewables (and again the random thumb downs without arguing with facts :)) :

1) Nuclear is not required to reduce CO2 emissions. 2) Nuclear is not required to grow the economy. 3) Renewables have in fact contributed to the reduction of CO2 emissions in Germany.
0 ( +4 / -4 )

Thomas AndersonAug. 08, 2012 - 02:59PM JST

3) Renewables have in fact contributed to the reduction of CO2 emissions in Germany.

Again, at the cost of CO2 and energy elsewhere. Japan is attempting to be a closed system, production and use within the country. They CANNOT simply ignore the manufacturing costs like some countries. Your comments are now starting to be very off-topic as they no longer even address the issues of a nuclear free Japan.

If you would like real world analysis, https://sites.google.com/site/anatomyofglobalclimatechangevj/data-and-analysis . Here you can see that it takes, in the best case scenario which Japan cannot achieve, at least three production years of energy and over 1.5 tons of CO2 per panel. Japan's non-nuclear generating capacity is simply not enough to cover a large enough increase in solar cell production.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Thomas AndersonAug. 08, 2012 - 02:10PM JST

I think that this is the problem with the people's ASSUMPTIONS about renewables

Yes, there is certainly a problem with people's assumptions about renewables that both you and Edano show. They are not actually green, nor are they cheap in the long run.

From your own source: "Carbon dioxide: CO2 emissions declined by 2.4 per cent compared to 2010. This significant decrease owes largely to lower demand for heating energy as a result of milder weather. This effect is especially noticeable in natural gas consumption and in the demand for heating oil. High prices for heating oil drove purchasing down and boosted use of stocks." In Hokkaido, you can see the same effect during mild winters compared to ones with -30C temperatures.

This is actually similar to the conditions that Japan faced last year during summer, and why people assumed that there would be no energy issues. Edano too, assumes that weather is never going to be as bad as 2010, or that manufacturing will reach levels equivalent to 2011 before the quake. Renewables and "home energy savings" are generally not a significant source of anything on the use end, and generally end up costing much more in the manufacturing side.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Yah, this is the type of new thinking that has been glaringly missing in Japan's energy-policy discourse. It takes guts to stand out to be counted

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Every house in Japan by law should be solar or have a wind turbine.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Robert RooAug. 08, 2012 - 11:44PM JST

Every house in Japan by law should be solar or have a wind turbine.

US is heading to this direction. I was very pleased to see that USAFA is converting some to solar already. That's a big facility.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Edano makes such a comment with both eyes on the upcoming election but since he's correct, I'll not complain.

The CEO of GE commented recently on the impracticality of nuclear power: "In a Financial Times interview this week, Jeff Immelt, chief executive of GE, said nuclear power was “really hard” to defend financially, when compared both with gas-fired generation and certain renewables. “At some point, really, economics rule,” he added. Mr Immelt is not some disinterested bystander. GE, one of the pioneers of civil nuclear power in the 1950s, still produces reactors through a joint venture with Hitachi of Japan."

1 ( +1 / -0 )

While Japan government is championing restart of nuke plants at will, USA government has stopped issuing and/or renewing permits for nuke electricity plants until the issue of long term nuclear waste storage is resolved!!!! These are people who put health and well being of citizens up and above profits...Even their local 'nuclear villages' and corrupt politicians cannot deter their resolve...!!

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Rick KisaAug. 10, 2012 - 12:48PM JST

And that change was championed by the same guy who doubled the deficit and watched the economy get stuck in a ditch without doing anything. A clear indication that Japan MUST do the opposite.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

''basroilAug. 10, 2012 - 02:15PM JST And that change was championed by the same guy who doubled the deficit and watched the economy get stuck in a ditch without doing anything. A clear indication that Japan MUST do the opposite...'' Did without it before can do without it again..... No sence in buying cheap water if it is poisoned as in what is happening now due to your beloved nuclear energy.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

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