politics

Britain and Japan to pay for most of fighter project agreed with Italy

33 Comments
By Nobuhiro Kubo and Tim Kelly

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A guaranteed disaster scenario. The project will be scrapped after more than a decade of delays and finally US jets will be bought. But first many pockets must and will be lined

-11 ( +15 / -26 )

Britain and Japan to pay for most of fighter project agreed with Italy

Japan like to print money and get into debt, so it's right decision that Japan pay for that project.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Markets/Bonds/Japan-s-debt-pile-grows-as-government-bonds-hit-record-7tn

-9 ( +5 / -14 )

Whiny sore loser US will do any dirty geopolitical move, (as always), to force Japan to keep buying only their planes and weapons..

-3 ( +8 / -11 )

"...Since its defeat in World War Two, Japan has only ever worked with the United States on big defense projects. "

Yes. The big defense projects.

Great article.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

If this 6th generation fighter will be using to fight China,Russia is so good....then why Germany did not participate this project?

Germany or West Germany has been collaborating with UK, Italy in production of Tornado, Typhoon but not "Tempest"?

2 ( +5 / -3 )

As the US becomes more and more frantic to maintain its hegemonic power over the globe the best thing Japan can do is projects like this to move away from their orbit and chart a new course.

-3 ( +6 / -9 )

Get the Italians to work on the electronics... Or rust prevention...

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Does Italy or does UK even need any sophisticated fighter jets? My guess is, a simple but good working fence in sea and on land will do much better for them.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

Japan might be able to build fast trains and reliable cars, but they have zero experience making a modern fighter jet. They build carbon copies of US F-15s and F-16s on license with all of the blueprints supplied, but that's about as best they can do. Italy isn't far behind.

Basically this all means that the UK will be designing a new fighter jet, Japan is going to help pay for it, and Italy is going to make the tires and leather seats and get a lot more than they're pay for once the little red hen makes the bread.

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

The Global Combat Air Program will be a "marriage", but a marriage with 3 parties.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

As the US becomes more and more frantic to maintain its hegemonic power over the globe the best thing Japan can do is projects like this to move away from their orbit and chart a new course.

A line that the CCP would be proud of.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Britain was already developing its next generation fighter jet, Japan joining in gains exposure to technology and expertise they lack and Britain and Italy spread the cost of development while reducing the per unit cost. All in all a win, win, win situation

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Normally, I'd be against this sort of thing, but as it seems to be getting up the noses of Americans (especially in this comment section), I say go for it Team GB/Italy/Japan!

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@Mr Kipling

Get the Italians to work on the electronics... Or rust prevention...

Actually the Italians will be responsible for AESA radar, sensors, antenna, and electronic warfare.

Leonardo is a multinational defense contractor specialized in electronics and simulators.

Only the Japanese in Japan don't know this.

@CaptDingleheimer

Italy isn't far behind.

You will be shocked to learn it's actually the other way around and it's the Japanese that are the least experienced and least capable partner of three.

https://trafficnews.jp/post/123555

次期戦闘機の共同開発「なぜイタリアも…」は過小評価? 日本も世話になっている欧州の巨星 その実態

日本もお世話になっているイタリア兵器

ネットニュースのコメント欄では、イギリスはともかくイタリアの参加を不安視するコメントも見受けられましたが、筆者はこのコメントをされた方は、イタリアの実力を過小評価していると感じました。

-4 ( +6 / -10 )

These projects are complicated and messy - often a soap opera of bitchy infighting over competing specs and design choices.

The Eurofighter Typhoon multinational project began in earnest in 1983 after multiple false starts, tech demo 1986, prototype 1994, entering service in 2003.

There were hitches all through. France had a hissy fit and pulled out early on. None of the partners could agree on anything, so there were endless delays and compromises. It is produced on multiple assembly lines using the same parts (unlike Airbus passenger planes). The cost is usually matched to procurement numbers (in theory). In practice, the UK usually pay extra.

It's a surprisingly good aircraft for its intended scope - which is quite amazing given the project issues. It sells to Europe and the Middle East. It went wildly over budget (by billions), mismanagement leading to each plane costing as much as 75% more than it should have.

Most countries buy US planes because it makes the US happy, and because multinational projects are wildly expensive nightmares. It's largely down to kudos. Plus it's public money, and politicians are happy to spend that on military shiny over multiple terms of office. Once the project is past a certain point, they can say that they have spent too much to stop, and blame previous governments or foreign governments for the insane overspend.

Governments never learn from their mistakes, so any plane in this project will most likely come into service up to a decade late and cost up to twice as much as it is expected to. And lots of public money, one way or another, will find its way into private pockets.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Japan is going to pay for it and provide all the important tech for it. Italy and UK will lend name recognition to it. And it will still be 20 years behind US fighters and 30 years behind Russian.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

In Britain people cannot even afford to eat but the government is willing to waste money on more stupid weapons. it's insane.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

We just wasted billions and billions on dysfunctional F-35s, now we giving our tax money to UK.

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

Both sources, who asked to remain anonymous because they were not authorized to talk to the media, added that most of the program's details were yet to be decided.

If most details have not yet been decided, then any talk of who will pay what is both pointless and not based on any concrete information. In other words someone is making a huge unguided guess and it would have little more weight than my own guess at this point.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Most countries buy US planes because it makes the US happy,

No. They buy US for the worlds best tech and for interoperability with US forces that most western nations rely upon for defense to some degree.

and because multinational projects are wildly expensive nightmares.

Agree with that.

Japan is going to pay for it and provide all the important tech for it. Italy and UK will lend name recognition to it. And it will still be 20 years behind US fighters and 30 years behind Russian.

I dont think any of that statement is based on reality. Japan will add what it can but it will definitely not be "all the important tech", it will be a decade or more behind US fighters in some respects and on par in others, and as Russian fighter tech is a decade or more behind US technology, it will most likely be ahead of Russian fighters.

@DT has explained more than once the big difference in jet engine contruction, life expectency in operation hours and materials used between Russian and US fighter engines. That is not the only advantage the US has over the Russians in fighter jets.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

So Japan foots the bill and gains the technology while Britain and Italy would be the ones able, constitutionally, to use the jets for what they were built for in a military confrontation until Japan totally rewrites their constitution sometime in the next 20 years? Makes sense from a long game investment POV.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Have you even compared Russian fighter jets capabilities to U.S military fighter jets capabilities

Indeed, I have done my own reading on capabilities and equipment used by various combat aircraft in service today. One thing they all have in common is an enhanced ability to kill and destroy. That is their purpose. The US is generally more advanced and of much higher build quality than Russian Aircraft, while Russia is ahead with a number of capabilities such as it's hypersonic missiles in service.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

guaranteed disaster scenario. The project will be scrapped after more than a decade of delays and finally US jets will be bought. But first many pockets must and will be lined

Sounds accurate.

Get the Italians to work on the electronics... Or rust prevention...

Or the pasta and vino for the lunch menu....then the project might even be a bit of a success:)

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

The trenchantly expressed opinions above, founded on an obvious complete lack of knowledge of the subject is impressive (with exception of the pro-Muscovite shills as expected).

Italy and Britain have worked successfully on a number of projects, surprisingly to the ignorant they have proven in the past to be a good and competent partner to work with.

This project benefits from not involving the French and Germans who have been the cause of problems in the past.

Japans involvement is obviously an unknown quantity, we shall just have to wait and see.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@Gaijinland

So Japan foots the bill and gains the technology while Britain and Italy would be the ones able, constitutionally, to use the jets for what they were built for in a military confrontation until Japan totally rewrites their constitution sometime in the next 20 years? Makes sense from a long game investment POV.

Japan is hoping to be able to export this jet to Southeast Asian.

Unfortunately for Japan, Southeast Asian countries can't afford $400 million/unit fighter jets.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

Great choice to build something that is not American. Diversification may also lead to new ideas, and I am sure some other countries will want eventually take part in the project. The tornado, the Eurofighter, the Jaguar, and the Eurocopter, are all great aircraft that help diversify production, jobs, and profits into our own domestic industries. Of course, all the workers employed pay tax, any technology gained can be sold, and the company's profits will all be taxed, which will also reduce the costs of the program. Also, a great idea incase the Americans go all wimpy on us. The Falklands was a great example of the Yanks kinda being a little unreliable. Except when it is their shooting war, then there is the coalition of the willing.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@Awa no Gaijin As always you talk with your fingers perhaps never TOUCHED a fighter jet. Speaking of loose lips sink ship, yes if the reference was hinted towards me I don't need to impress anyone. I do what I say I just don't type nonsense. Now to answer your questions. There is NO NEED FOR ME TO COMPARE a russian fighter jet capabilities WE KNOW THAT JUNK DON'T WORK!!! They see an F-22 they run. I am speaking from experience we have their MIGS and we test them against our best result just Met junk targets in the sky!!! Just keep typing what ever you feel while sitting behind your monitor. I can say I touch it, built it, test it, design it. Now as I told you before about Raider 21 no one heard about it until the beast was released, thats not all so keep dreaming your logic is just so off base its really evident by the number of thumbs down that you receive. I am not a GI joe geek but your logice is lost in space. Lights on nobody is home. LMFAO you wrote "Don't underestimate Russian fighter jets capabilities or other capabilities as that is very very foolish" There is no reason to under estimate them the junk they have is out dated and doesn't work in the field their soldiers are complaining and are being sent home in huge numbers in bodies bags. If you feel they are that great go sign up!!! The weapons that are being used to defeat them is their worst enemy and it proves those weapons are working. If their aircraft was that superior why are they shooting missiles because they know they will be shot out of the skies that crap doesn't work!!! Only a fool would say "Don't underestimate Russian fighter jets capabilities or other capabilities as that is very very foolish" when the world is witnessing their foolish results.

DT has explained more than once the big difference in jet engine contruction, life expectency in operation hours and materials used between Russian and US fighter engines. That is not the only advantage the US has over the Russians in fighter jets.

Yeah that's for those who are just willing to believe any retired gijoe weapons geek wannabe with a loose lips sink ship agenda and trying to impress the gullible.

Have you even compared Russian fighter jets capabilities to U.S military fighter jets capabilities.

Or your just willing to believe anything ?

Don't underestimate Russian fighter jets capabilities or other capabilities as that is very very foolish

1 ( +1 / -0 )

If this 6th generation fighter will be using to fight China,Russia is so good....then why Germany did not participate this project?

Germany or West Germany has been collaborating with UK, Italy in production of Tornado, Typhoon but not "Tempest"?

France doesn't have the resources to develop their own 5th gen fighter and at the time Germany was refusing to buy F-35s, wanting to develop a European solution but unable to afford it on their own, so the French recruited the Germans as partners on a 5th Gen fighter program since they are partners in Airbus. The Brits and Italians didn't want to work with long time aerospace rivals the French (and vice versa) and went off on their own, later recruiting the Japanese into the program. If the Germans joined the Brits and Italians like they did for the Tempest and before that the Tornado the French would be without a partner and couldn't afford their own stand alone 5th Gen fighter program. That kind of puts the Germans in the drivers seat which they like.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Yeah that's for those who are just willing to believe any retired gijoe weapons geek wannabe with a loose lips sink ship agenda and trying to impress the gullible.

Here is an example of the superiority of western combat jets that is very far from classified. Mean time between overhaul for their jet engines. Take two roughly comparable low bypass afterburning turbofan engines powering western and Russian/Chinese combat jets, the GE F414 and the Saturn AL-31. You find the F414 is Super Hornets and the newer versions of the Gripen among others. The AL-31 powers the SU-27, SU-57, J-10, J-11 and J-20. The AL-31 originally had a mean time between overhaul, meaning the number of operating hours on the engine before it has to be removed from the airplane and sent to a depot to be torn down, inspected and worn items replaced, of only 100 hours. That would be at most two weeks of hard combat for a western aircraft that is going to fly three missions a day slip seating pilots between missions. Two weeks of flying and the airplane has to be taken out of service to swap the engines. Saturn has managed over the years to extend the MTBO of the AL-31 to 1000 hours and the engine has a maximum fatigue life of 2000 hours. After that you throw it away.

The F414 has an MTBO of 6000 hours, up from the 4000 hours of its predecessor the F404. Western combat jets routinely go years between engine overhauls. In fact 6000 hours is the original design life of the F/A-18, though overhauls that include structural work has increased that to 10,000 hours.

Oh yeah, the US Navy operated MiG-29s for a while. At the time their engines were rated at 400 hours TBO, but we never achieved that. Over 75% of the MiG-29s engines failed before 300 operating hours. The Indian and German air forces experienced the same service life problems with their MiG-29s (the Luftwaffe inherited the former East German MiGs and some of them were transferred to the US Navy for evaluation and use as an aggressor aircraft for Top Gun).

Airframe life for the MiG was another problem. They were rated for a service life of 1100 hours. The Germans and us looked for every way to extend that but there was no good way to rebuild them to last longer. The Germans restricted their G limits but that makes air combat training less realistic. The Navy just retired them. Their ancient A-4 Skyhawk and F-5 Talon aggressor aircraft from the 1960s were more durable and more reliable. The MiGs were replaced with F-16s.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_AL-31

https://www.ge.com/news/press-releases/ge-f414-engine-deployed-fa-18ef-potential-applications-growing

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

You might be surprised but the US doesn't necessarily oppose other nations making their own stealthy combat jets. From an operational point of view, the more different aircraft and weapons you field, the harder it becomes for an adversary to develop effective countermeasure and counter tactics for each aircraft and each weapon. It is a time consuming and costly endeavor to collect enough intel on a given aircraft to understand its radar and other sensors, it's performance and come up with countermeasures and tactics to counter it. Then add individual weapons that have to be countered. If the Chinese only have to worry about a small number of US stealth types, the F-22, F-35, B-2 and soon the B-21 that is a lot of work for their intel and engineering side but it's doable. Now add European, Euro-Japanese and possibly South Korean front line stealth fighters and the amount of data collection and analysis becomes daunting. It is also very hard to apply effective countermeasures in a combat situation when you have multiple different types of aircraft, each with its own unique sensors, and especially so if they are networked and sharing data from their sensors. You can't jam it all, something maybe most will get through. But if all you come at an enemy with only one or two types it makes the enemies job so much easier.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

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