Democracies draw closer to Taiwan as China more belligerent

Good news. Time for the world to formally recognize Taiwan as a separate and independent country from China and give Winnie the Ping and his whole country an international Beetch Slap to the FACE

Good news. Time for the world to formally recognize Taiwan as a separate and independent country from China and give Winnie the Ping and his whole country an international Beetch Slap to the FACE

So well said.

>

Another sharp knife in the juggling act. When does he drop one and get poked? It seems like Baby Ping Ping's primary skill set is making people angry with him and with China in general.

Funny how China constantly lectures Japan to "learn from WWII" when clearly, it is China that has not learned anything. Better start working on beating China when Taiwan seeks UN recognition as a sovereign nation. And let's get those defense/security agreements lined up. The world supports the free people of Taiwan.

"We welcome trade, investment and visits, just not further hectoring about being the chewing gum on China's boot.”

Well said Tone! Remind them that we too are a sovereign nation and if we choose to acquire nuclear subs that’s our right.

The trace minerals and rare earth elements are coming from the ogasawara area needed for microchip and AI tech.

Whether they are made in Taiwan , south Korea or USA .

Russia has plenty as they make them in the lab

Where is South Korea? ?

Powerhouse of East Asia. GDP on the rise yearly. Military GDP similar to Japan with half the population and 1/10 the land and water to defend compared to Japan.

I think you know the answer and it is completely rational. ROK has to avoid unnecessarily angering China as it deals with DPRK. If they anger China too much China and DPRK can make life very hard for ROK. They have to walk a fine line.

Thank you Mr Watters

I don't think anyone needs to formally declare anything about Taiwan. The immediate priority is to calm China down and maybe distract them with something else.

The biggest issue is time. China's power is declining due to demographics and they rightly realize it's now or never. Just let time heal the situation for another 5-10 years and then think about formally declaring independence.

The biggest issue is time. China's power is declining due to demographics and they rightly realize it's now or never. Just let time heal the situation for another 5-10 years and then think about formally declaring independence.

I agree that time is not on the CCPs side. China's demographics are highly unfavorable and in about ten years the glaciers currently feeding the Yellow River will be gone. They are receding rapidly now. A dry Yellow River will be catastrophic for China. Northern China has problems with the Gobi Desert expanding into agricultural lands and Beijing has a California-esque problem with badly overdrawn aquifers. They have big problems exacerbated by picking fights with the Tibetans, Uyghurs, Hong Kong and more recently Inner Mongolians. When the CCP starts to look weak all of these enemies they have created will pounce.

I would argue however that it would not be in Taiwan's interest to declare independence. That would force the CCP to declare war. Politically they would have no choice. Instead Taiwan should just carry on as Taiwan gathering up support from other democratic nations of the world and simply wait for the inevitable collapse of the CCP. If Taiwan is smart their government, which is really the heir to the first Republic of China created by Dr. Sun Yat-sen in 1912 after the defeat of the Qing, will outlive the CCP. Then they can see what happens in China after the demise of the CCP and make a decision. If China descends into internal warfare, not the first time that has happened, then maybe it would be an opportune time to declare independence? But perhaps they will be the government that saves China after the collapse of the CCP? Too many unknowns to say at this time but what is dead certain is that a Taiwanese declaration of independence while the CCP remains in power will result in the PRC trying to invade and conquer Taiwan. Don't try to fool yourself and think otherwise. Taiwan has to be patient and smart.

Where is South Korea? ?

Powerhouse of East Asia. GDP on the rise yearly. Military GDP similar to Japan with half the population and 1/10 the land and water to defend compared to Japan.

No Article 9 for South Korea, no limits or restrictions. Building advance weapons and planes, missiles, drones.

Military draft in S. Korea for 2 years mandatory for all Men. Millions of soldiers trained and ready against any possible conflict against the North.

South Korea is NOT part of Quad Alliace to balance China nor do they have any plans to help defend Taiwan.

TeslaInvestorToday  02:26 am JST

@kennyG

No, as Japan cannot be trusted. The world is better off with them disarmed.

Even with a military, I doubt Japan would use it to defend Taiwan. You have to realize that Korea was the last country to cut diplomatic ties with Taiwan. Korea tried to hold off as long as possible. Japan, on the other hand, was one of the first to drop Taiwan.

I would not trust Japan with looking out for anyone's interests but themselves. Nothing wrong with that, but there are many countries that are more trustworthy in difficult situations. Japan isn't one of them, especially not for Taiwan.

Japan is only siding with Taiwan now, because it's politically convenient, not because they're looking out for Taiwan.

Apart from your personal hate toward Japan, you are presenting unreasonable criticism if you notice it yourself

China has miscalculated more than once. It sent Australia a list of 14 grievances it has with Australia and has instigated trade bans and barriers against its trade agreements with Australia to try to get Australia to submit and pull it into line with China's wishes. Thinking its actions to single out Australian trade would do the trick. Miscalculation! It has made Australia stand up and be much more vociferous against China. Rather than cave in Australia leads the world in standing against Chinese trade aggression.

Jinping thinks treating others as he does his own citizens, will have them cowering and submitting as the majority of Chinese people do. Free people stand up when threatened and defend their rights, something Jinping does not yet understand.

Taiwan is at the forefront of Pekings military belligerence, along with Japan, India and those bordering the South China sea. They will also defend themselves and as time passes will grow closer together of necessity to counter China's expansionist desires.

The world has witnessed China grow economically and has assisted in this growth. The world has also witnessed China's military buildup and expansion into other nations EEZ's while constantly threatening Taiwan with war. The world opposes such actions and this will galvanize nations to support those threatened by China and to work in unison to contain its ambitions to lead the world with it's brand of oppression and coercion both militarily and through trade.

China's worst enemy comes from within. It is Jinping's continual miscalculation's and ambitions of becoming a conqueror.

TeslaInvestorToday  02:56 am JST

@kennyG

What a weak response. I don't hate Japan; I'm merely analyzing the situation using history as my guide.

Japan has had world domination aspirations twice - Once during the 1500s and then the 1900s. It's not 'unreasonable' to assume that they would attempt another stab at it if they had a fully-equipped military.

> Japan was one of the first countries to drop Taiwan, and they're only backtracking now for their own national interest of weakening China. This shows that Japan is more focused on themselves rather than protecting Taiwan or some nonsense idea about promoting democracy.

If think my analysis on the situation is unreasonable, then you are free to explain why.

Stressing Japan to be stuck onto Art 9 as (you think) it is not trustworthy and assuming it will free the war when others try to protect Taiwan together isn't unreasonable or illogical? Or you did not mean Japan would free the fight when others try to protect Japan itself did you? Either you are not understanding how current Japanese law works on collective self-defense, or simply presenting unreasonable illogical idea.

As for what you call dropping Taiwan by Japan, the first, South Korea, the last, It was simply that Japan and US established diplomatic relationship with CCP ruling China much earlier than South Korea did with its former-enemy. Not because South Korea had tried to holding off even a bit. You could have been cogent if South Korea had chosen Taiwan over CCP China at the end.

TeslaInvestorToday  09:24 am JST

@kennyG

I never said Japan would wage war when others try to defend Taiwan. Bad reading comprehension and poor logic. I only mentioned that Japan may attempt to invade other countries if they didn't have Article 9. I never specified a time or a condition.

I never said Japan would wage or free the war when others entered the war to protect Taiwan either.

Your post says

Talk is cheap and that's the game Japan is playing. There is no reason for South Korea to issue a statement and further antagonize China. However, if war does come, South Korea will side with the US without hesitation.

Japan, on the other hand, will attempt to flee the fight while others do the fighting for them.

You did say Japan will free the fight. Which country(ies) did you mean by "them" then? Hence my response.

Bad reading comprehension and poor memory then?

Other countries must consider what Japan will do hundreds of years from now, not just what may happen in the 21st century.

Why don't you consider what all others would do in such case lol.

Also, what a lousy excuse. The fact is that Japan dropped Taiwan first, and you're making excuses. No ifs and buts about it. Korea didn't drop relations until the 90s, long after the current government formed.

Excuse? Simple fact. Chose CCP China and drop Taiwan as a set. South Korea just had done late (or CCP China did not care as much)

But perhaps they will be the government that saves China after the collapse of the CCP?

Well written there DT, thorough work. Interesting angle on China's future water issues.

@Querecetum, I understand your point but three things have changed. Number one is technology. The CCP can't keep knowledge of the world from its citizens, nor can it keep knowledge of their acts secret from the world. Digital cameras, cell phones with cameras and the internet have made it impossible for regimes to keep secrets from their people.

Number two is the increasing repression of Xi Jinping. All those educated people you talk about know they are being repressed now, and worse for Xi they know there are societies where people do not suffer the daily indignities they suffer and where people are free to express themselves without fear of arrest. They know there are societies that elect their own leaders, something that didn't happen anywhere in the world 300 years ago. During all those old dynasties you mention there was no representative elected form of government to aspire to. No parliaments. No ideas that people had inalienable rights. No concepts of limited government. No reason to overthrow the current king because there was nothing better out there. Today there is and most Chinese know this to be true. Each year Xi Jinping adds new more repressive laws on the books. What has happened to Jack Ma and a few other very well known tech titans in China will positively deter innovation in the future. Moreover whereas under Deng and those who followed him local and regional party leaders had freedom to try things, to innovate and take risks. That hot house environment of trying things and taking risks is why China grew so rapidly. Xi now expects all those local and regional party leaders to look for direction from Beijing first. He also expects private business to "take their lead" as he put it from those highly profitable bastions of innovation, the sclerotic state owned industries. There goes all that innovation that made China what it is today.

Number three, in the modern world we inhabit with all that tech communicating knowledge instantaneously around the globe, everything happens much faster. China grew from nothing economically to the second largest economy in a mere four decades, not the centuries required of the past. I would offer it will similarly decline in mere decades too. The CCP might depose Xi Jinping. The PLA tried to do it in 2017 but failed however what happened to the Gang of Four could serve as a model to get rid of Xi. That might delay the end but in this world dictatorships do not last. The ready availability of information makes dictatorship very tough to enforce for very long. That was not true of the past.

TeslaInvestorToday  10:24 am JST

@KennyG

Your post is just more speculation. You're literally taking sources that don't support your argument and creating unsubstantiated theories to fit your argument.

You just didn't read links I attached at all just in 7min did you?

There is no evidence to support your false theory that it is "difficult" to establish diplomatic ties. The fact is that Japan dropped Taiwan first while Korea didn't, because Korea didn't want to appear to side with Communists at that time.

Yeah it was Korean version of Hallstein　Doctrine. Right? You claim is * Japan was the first and South Korea was the last to dump Taiwan as if South Korea tried to hold off the break off relation with Taiwan. That was not true. It is because of the existence of this Korean version of the doctrine which has delayed the timing compared to Japan/US. Yeah, you yourself pointing out your contradiction. right?

As a mater of fact, This Korean version of Hallstein Doctrine was essentially dumped already in 1972 by Park Chung-hee's "6.23 declaration".

How come it took that long for South Korea to reach to the one in 1992? Huh?

If you think it was such a easy process, or if you think it was all up to South Korea to conclude diplomatic relation with PRC or Soviet, you had better go back to study and come back here. Collapse of cold war structure/Collapse of Soviet Union/Reform&open door policy of PRC all played the role for it to have happened.

You just cannot dodge the fundamental question at all, by the way. If It is not difficult, how come North and South still do not have normalized diplomacy Huh? All you need to recognize each other as a country RIGHT? which had happened already for both North and South in 1991 already.

You are a Japanese right-winger, so twisting history is your forte. Try not making Alex Jones-tier conspiracy theories.

Also, I'm not Korean. I just don't like Japanese right-wingers.

Korea has been establishing diplomatic ties with non-Communist nations since the 60s. There is nothing technically difficult about saying "We recognize you as a country". You arguing otherwise is just ludicrous that can only be conjured up in the mind of a loony Japanese right-winger.

You can call me all you like if you want to resort to such manner but you cannot keep dodging and cooking up the facts. Read from page 58 of the 1st link I attached. You can educate yourself how terribly South Korea betrayed Taiwan which officially mentioned " The way South Korea behaved and deceived their friend cannot be compared with US and Japan"

Just read the links as a first step before replying.

The PRC never should have been recognised in the first place. Sure, Taiwan wasn't exactly a thriving democracy under the KMT in the early days, but it was light years ahead of the CCP. Then who else but cartoonish Machiavellian Henry Kissinger went in on somebody's behalf (wonder who?) and opened the doors to the world for the CCP, with Nixon just playing the public role.

You can bet that whatever is happening on the surface to show support for Taiwan is not the same as what you can't see. I don't know what's going to happen, but if I were in Taiwan right now I'd be pretty nervous, and very wary of putting much faith in Biden.

The subjugation of Hong Kong isn't a good advert for life under the crushing heel of Chinese rule. The CCP would prefer its prospective citizens to be coweringly obedient rather than prosperous and vibrant. Not exactly hearts-and-minds diplomacy from Xi.

In the words of Gandhi, "The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."

TeslaInvestorToday  01:51 am JST

@ReasonandWisdomNippon

Talk is cheap and that's the game Japan is playing. There is no reason for South Korea to issue a statement and further antagonize China. However, if war does come, South Korea will side with the US without hesitation.

Japan, on the other hand, will attempt to flee the fight while others do the fighting for them.

So you also think Japan should remove Article 9 or what?

TeslaInvestorToday  09:52 am JST

I never said Japan would wage or free the war when others entered the war to protect Taiwan either.

Ahh, my bad. I misread your post.

You did say Japan will free the fight. Which country(ies) did you mean by "them" then? Hence my response.

Yep. Japan will talk a big game while others do the real fighting.

Sure you never said Japan would wage war. You said Japan would free the fight(war) while others do the fighting to protect them. Since you dodge my question, I ask you again. Which country did you mean by "them" which others do fighting to protect and Japan would run away from doing so?

Japan? You must be joking. Taiwan? while you are against removing Art 9?

South Korea and China don't have a history of wanting to dominate the world. Japan's does. It's not illogical to be more wary of Japan than the others.

the Yuan dynasty? Both countries (used to )have ideology that they are the center of the world.

As all other nations dropped Taiwan, the only metric we have is how fast each one dropped Taiwan. The speed that Japan dropped Taiwan to get access to the Chinese markets is what surprises me. It shows that Japan is self-serving and that we shouldn't trust a word their government says.

The only metric you should see is how fast each one established diplomatic relation with newly-born CCP ruling China and South Korea was just slow ( or CCP did not care about you as much) . As far as Japan is concerned, the sooner, the much better for concluding peace treaty with the opponent after the war isn't it.

TeslaInvestorToday  11:53 am JST

*I ask you again. Which country did you mean by "them" which others do fighting to protect and Japan would run away from doing so?*

If we're assuming article 9 didn't apply and Japan had a military that can engage in conflicts outside self-defense, I am 100% confident that would not fight to defend Taiwan. They will watch from the sidelines.

You don't have to assume as such. It is there and you said it should not be removed. At the same time

you assumed(criticized) Japan would free the fight outside self-defense. if not Illogical, what is it.

And I am not interested in the rest of your personal belief.

> the Yuan dynasty? Both countries (used to )have ideology that they are the center of the world.

China mostly kept to themselves and bordering countries. China did believe themselves to be superior to everyone else in the old age, but that does not mean they wanted to take over the world.

It is not as if Tibet, Inner Mongol, Uygul, have been historically all the time Chinese territory.

Regardless you know how big the Yuan dynasty had become once don't you?

The only metric you should see is how fast each one established diplomatic relation with newly-born CCP ruling China and South Korea was just slow ( or CCP did not care about you as much) . As far as Japan is concerned, the sooner, the much better for concluding peace treaty with the opponent after the war isn't it.

This metric is important, not only because it's the only metric we have but also because it tells us which countries are more trustworthy than others.

You might have some problem in understanding. I meant it is not that South Korea tried to delay dropping Taiwan but is simply that South Korea was late in establishing relation with CCP.

My original statement had nothing to do with article 9. It was mostly about how Japan is more self-serving than Korea and that Japan wouldn't lift a finger to help Taiwan if war actually broke out regardless of whether Art 9 existed or not.

The person I was quoting was insinuating that Japan is acting brave by speaking for Taiwan. I'm merely stating that talk is cheap and that actions speak louder than words, and we saw how fast Japan dropped Taiwan. That's all the proof any reasonable person would need to conclude that Japan isn't a reliable ally.

Have finally tied up loose ends? OK but your home country could be as more self-serving as sending troops far away and massacred innocents over there during the fight which was none of your war.

Lastly let me just remind you one last time. It is not that Japan or US were fast in dropping Taiwan but in establishing diplomatic relation with CCP China. It is not because South Korea tried to keep relation with Taiwan but it was simply unable to establish the same or CCP did not care about doing so with South Korea as much until 1992.

TeslaInvestorToday  02:53 am JST

@kennyG

Have finally tied up loose ends? OK but your home country could be as more self-serving as sending troops far away and massacred innocents over there during the fight which was none of your war.

I have no idea what your point even is. Japan won't defend Taiwan during war with or without article 9. Japan, like all nations, a self-serving. I am not criticizing Japan. I am merely stating that they're not any more altruistic than other countries like WisdomandReasonNippon is implying.

Lol Look into an idiom " tie up loose ends" if you don't get it. It seems you have been back-stepping, so I wouldn't push you back further.

Lastly let me just remind you one last time. It is not that Japan or US were fast in dropping Taiwan but in establishing diplomatic relation with CCP China. It is not because South Korea tried to keep relation with Taiwan but it was simply unable to establish the same or CCP did not care about doing so with South Korea as much until 1992.

This is just wishful thinking and fantasy coming from a deranged mind. Establishing diplomatic ties isn't a very difficult political measure, as it mainly requires 2 countries to say "We recognize each other." There are no difficult logistics, nor are there any other technical complications.

The CCP at that time would have wanted any country to recognize itself as the true government of China to delegitimize Taiwan. Considering the easy of formalizing and establishing diplomatic ties, it's unlikely that the reason for Korea's late diplomacy with China has anything to do with being "unable to establish" one or CCP not caring. Such a conclusion considering the situation at that time is outright ludicrous. You can stop defending Japan. You are no better than Korea.

South Korea's Northern Diplomacy (toward Socialist countries=normalizing and establishing diplomatic relations with Socialist countries) was initiated as late as 1988 by No Tae-woo. South Korea established diplomatic relation with Hungary Republic in 1989 and followed by the same with other East Europe socialistic countries, and reached at the one with Soviet Union in 1990 , ending up with one with China in 1992.

You see? Establishing ties hasn't been that easy for South Korea. Historical facts. It is also not secret that South Korea was as self-serving as having made Taiwan believe until the last minutes with empty promise

" It is impossible to break off relation with Taiwan" but actually quickly dumped Taiwan in 1992 once it concluded the treaty with CCP China and even transferred the title of Assets Taiwan Embassy in Seoul owned to the one of PRC name on the very day.

It is merely a part of late dynamic historical stream for South Korea. Not that South Korea tried to keep relation with Taiwan

just wishful thinking and fantasy is actually all yours

TeslaInvestorToday  09:12 am JST

@kennyG

You're making this too easy. Do you read what you're quoting or do you just copy & paste it and twist the inference to fit your messaging? I ask, because if you read what you just quoted, you would realize it supports my argument.

South Korea's decision not to recognize Socialist/Communist countries was their own (As stated in your quote about Northern Diplomacy). It had nothing to do any technical difficulties or their inability to do so. The fact that you think 2 countries stating "We recognize each other" is technically difficult speaks a lot about your knowledge in this area, so I suggest you sit down before repeating your nonsense.

Next time, try reading your sources before posting them. You sound like a loony Japanese right-winger posting long walls of text of unsubstantiated claims. Do better.

Yes　I had read those although those are a sort of common sense. By your too simple logic, Both Koreas

should have been having normal diplomatic relation long time ago, at latest when both joined UN at the same time in 1991 where both recognized each other as a sovereign nation as a interim approach with a goal to unify the peninsula. The process to initiate Northern diplomacy and complete such measure were not as an easy process as you say. It is not as if PRC had been always waiting for normal diplomacy with South Korea. PRC

also had reasons for not normalizing relation with South Korea. These things happened among the dynamic stream of post-cold war International environments. It is not a secret, before 1988 Olympic, Japan also contributed as a critical pipeline for South Korea to communicate with PRC.

You seem failing on tying up loose ends big time on this end

Next time try reading some at least about your own history. Do better.

file:///C:/Users/hjmku/Downloads/KSS043900_005.pdf

http://www.ackj.org/wp/jcks/011/11-031.pdf

The PRC never should have been recognised in the first place. Sure, Taiwan wasn't exactly a thriving democracy under the KMT in the early days, but it was light years ahead of the CCP. Then who else but cartoonish Machiavellian Henry Kissinger went in on somebody's behalf (wonder who?) and opened the doors to the world for the CCP, with Nixon just playing the public role.

They needed China's help to negotiate the end the Vietnam war. The Vietnam War was not just a conflict between the US and North Vietnam; it involved the allies of both countries. China was the main barrier to the peace talks, and the recognition of the PRC is the result.

The US and China have already fought twice through the Korean and Vietnam Wars and both time the US have not won. The US and China will not be fighting against each other another war, not especially over Taiwan. If I were Taiwan, I would not have faith in Biden or any false hopes of the US fighting along side the Taiwanese like in Korea or Vietnam. Not going to happen. Maintaining the status quo and continuing to develop the economy and AI is the best option.

I agree that time is not on the CCPs side. 

Two points to consider are past dynasties and the competence of the current administration. The Tang lasted about 300 years, as well as the Song, Ming, and Qing dynasties. The Yuan was ruled by the Mongols and during the decades of the Republic, the population was basically on drugs and the country was in a de facto internal war against each other while being invaded by the Japanese. Once established, the ruling power will have a mandate for a significant period of time, and the CPC is no exception. We live in times of great change and arguably 200-300 years maybe a phenomenon of the past, but surely not a few decades.

Moreover, China, in some people's view, is a superpower, and in most economists' view, will take over the US in terms of the output of products and services within the decade. The Qing and its struggle began in the 1800's. It took a century for it to collapse. 1911 to 1949 is the the transition to the next period. Slow to rise and slow to fall. China is on the rise.

The Coming Collapse of China is like a blockbuster hit that many would like to see, but in reality, books have been written, and predictions have been made. They were supposed to have gone under in the 2000's. Gordan Chang has simply been proven wrong. Is Evergrande going to take China down? Is the energy crisis the beginning of the end for China? Will Taiwan's independence trigger Hong Kong, Tibet, and East Turkestan's independence movement? This is what some would like to see but what you are witnessing is the collapse of the China collapse theory.

The CPC is mostly made up of engineers and scientists who are practical and not bogged down by ideology. They have numerous AI scientists, the most STEM graduates and 800 million middle class internet users. They have succeeded to put spacecraft on the dark side of the moon and Mars. They have their own space station. They are trying to extract helium from the moon. They are trying to reduce carbon emissions and the dependence on coal. They are the world leader in electric vehicles and renewable energy production. They are addressing climate change. They are working to produce 2.5 to 3 million tons of desalinated sea water a day.

The sky is falling on China! To predict an apocalyptic collapse of China over the effects of global climate change is simply gloom doom dramatization and exaggeration.

@kennyG

Your post is just more speculation. You're literally taking sources that don't support your argument and creating unsubstantiated theories to fit your argument.

There is no evidence to support your false theory that it is "difficult" to establish diplomatic ties. The fact is that Japan dropped Taiwan first while Korea didn't, because Korea didn't want to appear to side with Communists at that time. You are a Japanese right-winger, so twisting history is your forte. Try not making Alex Jones-tier conspiracy theories.

Also, I'm not Korean. I just don't like Japanese right-wingers.

I ask you again. Which country did you mean by "them" which others do fighting to protect and Japan would run away from doing so?

If we're assuming article 9 didn't apply and Japan had a military that can engage in conflicts outside self-defense, I am 100% confident that would not fight to defend Taiwan. They will watch from the sidelines.

the Yuan dynasty? Both countries (used to )have ideology that they are the center of the world.

China mostly kept to themselves and bordering countries. China did believe themselves to be superior to everyone else in the old age, but that does not mean they wanted to take over the world.

The only metric you should see is how fast each one established diplomatic relation with newly-born CCP ruling China and South Korea was just slow ( or CCP did not care about you as much) . As far as Japan is concerned, the sooner, the much better for concluding peace treaty with the opponent after the war isn't it.

This metric is important, not only because it's the only metric we have but also because it tells us which countries are more trustworthy than others.

@kennyG

Have finally tied up loose ends? OK but your home country could be as more self-serving as sending troops far away and massacred innocents over there during the fight which was none of your war.

I have no idea what your point even is. Japan won't defend Taiwan during war with or without article 9. Japan, like all nations, a self-serving. I am not criticizing Japan. I am merely stating that they're not any more altruistic than other countries like WisdomandReasonNippon is implying.

Lastly let me just remind you one last time. It is not that Japan or US were fast in dropping Taiwan but in establishing diplomatic relation with CCP China. It is not because South Korea tried to keep relation with Taiwan but it was simply unable to establish the same or CCP did not care about doing so with South Korea as much until 1992.

This is just wishful thinking and fantasy coming from a deranged mind. Establishing diplomatic ties isn't a very difficult political measure, as it mainly requires 2 countries to say "We recognize each other." There are no difficult logistics, nor are there any other technical complications.

The CCP at that time would have wanted any country to recognize itself as the true government of China to delegitimize Taiwan. Considering the easy of formalizing and establishing diplomatic ties, it's unlikely that the reason for Korea's late diplomacy with China has anything to do with being "unable to establish" one or CCP not caring. Such a conclusion considering the situation at that time is outright ludicrous. You can stop defending Japan. You are no better than Korea.

@KennyG

EuropeMinistry of Foreign Affairs, Republic of Korea (mofa.go.kr)

Since establishing diplomatic ties in 1963, the ROK and the EU have steadily developed relations based on democracy and the rule of law.

Korea has been establishing diplomatic ties with non-Communist nations since the 60s. There is nothing technically difficult about saying "We recognize you as a country". You arguing otherwise is just ludicrous that can only be conjured up in the mind of a loony Japanese right-winger.

@kennyG

You just didn't read links I attached at all just in 7min did you?

You sound extremely upset.

Your first link is linked to your personal drive, so nobody here can access it. Your second link is entirely in Japanese, which I can't read.

Yeah it was Korean version of Hallstein　Doctrine. Right? You claim is * Japan was the first and South Korea was the last to dump Taiwan as if South Korea tried to hold off the break off relation with Taiwan. That was not true. It is because of the existence of this Korean version of the doctrine which has delayed the timing compared to Japan/US. Yeah, you yourself pointing out your contradiction. right?

As a mater of fact, This Korean version of Hallstein Doctrine was essentially dumped already in 1972 by Park Chung-hee's "6.23 declaration".

LOL... What does the 6.23 declaration have to do with this? That declaration had to do with South Korea's new policy of not meddling in North Korea's internal affairs. That doesn't mean South Korea changed its opinion on Communism, nor does it mean they considered North Korea as a non-enemy. It has nothing to do with CCP. Loony Japanese right-winger bringing in irrelevant topics and rambling incoherently. Many such cases.

You just cannot dodge the fundamental question at all, by the way. If It is not difficult, how come North and South still do not have normalized diplomacy Huh? All you need to recognize each other as a country RIGHT? which had happened already for both North and South in 1991 already.

Because North Korea and South Korea are still in a state of war. How is this relevant to South Korea's diplomacy with China?

You can call me all you like if you want to resort to such manner but you cannot keep dodging and cooking up the facts. Read from page 58 of the 1st link I attached. You can educate yourself how terribly South Korea betrayed Taiwan which officially mentioned " The way South Korea behaved and deceived their friend cannot be compared with US and Japan"

I'm not cooking up facts. I'm simply correcting your interpretation of history, which shouldn't be surprising, since you are a loony Japanese right-winger. Stay on topic. Don't bring in irrelevant discussions about North Korea.

@kennyG

I suggest you read up the shameful history of your country. I'll start with this:

However, since the U.S.-Japan Security Treaty was the foundation of Japan's foreign policy, it had become subordinate to the United States’ anti-communist strategy in East Asia.[5]

Despite this, Japan was interested in restoring relations with China due to cultural, security and economic interests

Seems like Japan will drop their allies quickly if it means more money.

@kennyG

No, as Japan cannot be trusted. The world is better off with them disarmed.

Even with a military, I doubt Japan would use it to defend Taiwan. You have to realize that Korea was the last country to cut diplomatic ties with Taiwan. Korea tried to hold off as long as possible. Japan, on the other hand, was one of the first to drop Taiwan.

I would not trust Japan with looking out for anyone's interests but themselves. Nothing wrong with that, but there are many countries that are more trustworthy in difficult situations. Japan isn't one of them, especially not for Taiwan.

Japan is only siding with Taiwan now, because it's politically convenient, not because they're looking out for Taiwan.

@kennyG

I never said Japan would wage war when others try to defend Taiwan. Bad reading comprehension and poor logic. I only mentioned that Japan may attempt to invade other countries if they didn't have Article 9. I never specified a time or a condition.

Other countries must consider what Japan will do hundreds of years from now, not just what may happen in the 21st century.

Also, what a lousy excuse. The fact is that Japan dropped Taiwan first, and you're making excuses. No ifs and buts about it. Korea didn't drop relations until the 90s, long after the current government formed.

I never said Japan would wage or free the war when others entered the war to protect Taiwan either.

Ahh, my bad. I misread your post.

You did say Japan will free the fight. Which country(ies) did you mean by "them" then? Hence my response.

Yep. Japan will talk a big game while others do the real fighting.

Why don't you consider what all others would do in such case lol.

South Korea and China don't have a history of wanting to dominate the world. Japan's does. It's not illogical to be more wary of Japan than the others.

Excuse? Simple fact. Chose CCP China and drop Taiwan as a set. South Korea just had done late (or CCP China did not care as much)

As all other nations dropped Taiwan, the only metric we have is how fast each one dropped Taiwan. The speed that Japan dropped Taiwan to get access to the Chinese markets is what surprises me. It shows that Japan is self-serving and that we shouldn't trust a word their government says.

You don't have to assume as such. It is there and you said it should not be removed. At the same time

you assumed(criticized) Japan would free the fight outside self-defense. if not Illogical, what is it.

And I am not interested in the rest of your personal belief.

My original statement had nothing to do with article 9. It was mostly about how Japan is more self-serving than Korea and that Japan wouldn't lift a finger to help Taiwan if war actually broke out regardless of whether Art 9 existed or not.

The person I was quoting was insinuating that Japan is acting brave by speaking for Taiwan. I'm merely stating that talk is cheap and that actions speak louder than words, and we saw how fast Japan dropped Taiwan. That's all the proof any reasonable person would need to conclude that Japan isn't a reliable ally.

@kennyG

You're making this too easy. Do you read what you're quoting or do you just copy & paste it and twist the inference to fit your messaging? I ask, because if you read what you just quoted, you would realize it supports my argument.

South Korea's decision not to recognize Socialist/Communist countries was their own (As stated in your quote about Northern Diplomacy). It had nothing to do any technical difficulties or their inability to do so. The fact that you think 2 countries stating "We recognize each other" is technically difficult speaks a lot about your knowledge in this area, so I suggest you sit down before repeating your nonsense.

Next time, try reading your sources before posting them. You sound like a loony Japanese right-winger posting long walls of text of unsubstantiated claims. Do better.

@kennyG

What a weak response. I don't hate Japan; I'm merely analyzing the situation using history as my guide.

Japan has had world domination aspirations twice - Once during the 1500s and then the 1900s. It's not 'unreasonable' to assume that they would attempt another stab at it if they had a fully-equipped military.

Japan was one of the first countries to drop Taiwan, and they're only backtracking now for their own national interest of weakening China. This shows that Japan is more focused on themselves rather than protecting Taiwan or some nonsense idea about promoting democracy.

If think my analysis on the situation is unreasonable, then you are free to explain why.

@ReasonandWisdomNippon

Talk is cheap and that's the game Japan is playing. There is no reason for South Korea to issue a statement and further antagonize China. However, if war does come, South Korea will side with the US without hesitation.

Japan, on the other hand, will attempt to flee the fight while others do the fighting for them.

And then you have Japan that can't even call it a country, not really a friendly relationship if you can't even recognize your friend country is not just a part of his enemy.

Where is South Korea? ?

Typical right wing propaganda. You should worry more about jgov being two faced. Japan tells its allies (US Australia Taiwan etc) that they should all take a hard stance against China. But behind closed doors, Japan gets cosy with China. That is why Japan has lost favour with Biden and they is why Japan is not part of AUKUS.

To think China will invade Taiwan is predictive to the point that it won’t happen. The US was completely surprised in 1950 when China showed up in the Korean mountains, and then it was completely surprised in 1964 when China tested her first nuclear bomb, then it was completely surprised when China launched her ICBM and her nuclear subs.

The US was surprised again recently with the recent hypersonic missile testing. No idea when/where these were developed, unless the Chinese decide to tell. And no idea when China will invade Taiwan if at all. Certainly not with eyes on China and Taiwan relations.

All I can say is, the Chinese are a formidable and extremely well organized and managed force with acumen and judgment. They have the uncanny knack for settling on the right path, even if there are mishaps along the way.

If you think it’s dumb to start war over Taiwan. I am sure they’d agree with you. They are authoritarian, but they’re not incompetent.