politics

Tamaki wants U.S., Japan, Okinawa talks on U.S. base move

53 Comments
By Yuri Kageyama

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Correction of the last sentence:

Just because it is so, however, can the U.S. side demand a similar preferential measure be given to them as well? LOL.

:

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

extanker,

When I asked Cawley, "Does it make you laugh?", the pronoun "it" wasn't meant to refer to what you are taking issue with. I argued and implied this whole project of relocating Futenma's function to Henoko is nothing but a white elephant for the defense and security of Japan for the reasons:

 (1) the most active core elements of the Okinawa-deployed Marines are to relocate to Guam, (2) the two governments have struck a deal to the effect that primary responsibility to defend Japan's territory rests with JSDF, and (3) an influential former member of OBRACC testified recently that there's no strategic reason except a financial one, unreasonably lucrative for the U.S., why Futenma's function must be maintained in Okinawa.

True, the government, either central or local, is devastating coastal lines of Okinawa by excessive land reclamation. Oftentimes, such land development is more than our patience and perseverance. So concerned people file lawsuit against the government to stop some of these government-sponsored landfill projects.

Just because it is so, however, the U.S. side can't demand the same beneficial treatment be given to them as well. LOL.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Does it make you laugh?

What makes me laugh is your assertion that the US Marines are 'foreign mercenaries' but that would imply that the Japanese government is paying them to specifically defend Japan, while you constantly rail against them saying that they are there for other nefarious purposes by Japans 'occupying masters'.

Or that you act concerned about 'destroying mother nature' except when Okinawa does it for their own benefit, then it is ok.

Your arguments are nothing but fantasy and hypocrisy. Now that I find laughable.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

コーリー (or Cawley?)

You're obfuscating the matter. You may call the new facility by whatever name you want: an extension of Camp Schwab or a replacement of MCAS Futenma. But that shouldn't be at issue here. 

The most important thing to discuss is whether it's worth spending so much money (2.5 trillion yen) and destroying mother nature by landfill of the sea, just for the sake of the U.S. Marines, foreign mercenaries, so to speak.  

I consider the whole project a white elephant for the defense of Japan for the reason I gave above (in my post of March 3 | 10:39 am UTC). Does it make you laugh?

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

These two (Voiceofokinawa and YuriOtani)... These two got me laughing like everyone trying to scramble due to Y2K haha... Again it's not a new base. Guam didn't reject. I don't know where you two get your info, but please check other places and do your research... Just remember that Y2K bug didn't do anything.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Guam rejected the Marines and it will never be ready for the transfer. I am positive the Americans are lying again as usual. Even if the new airfield is finished, the Marine bases south of Foster will not be closed. I do wonder what happened to all of the money given to the US from Japan?

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

This is what the Joint Statement says that was agreed upon by both the U.S. and Japan,

To achieve the goals of the shared partnership between the two countries, the SCC decided to adjust the plans outlined in the May 1, 2006 SCC Document entitled, "United States-Japan Roadmap for Realignment Implementation" (Realignment Roadmap). As part of these adjustments, the Ministers decided to delink both the relocation of the III Marine Expeditionary Force (MEF) personnel from Okinawa to Guam and resulting land returns south of Kadena Air Base from progress on the Futenma Replacement Facility.

The Japanese Govt. has the authority to construct all of the necessary facilities on Okinawa and Guam to close Camp Lester, Camp Kinser, Parts of Camp Foster, and Naha Port, regardless of what is happening with the relocation of MCAS Futenma and the United States has agreed on the transfer of Marines to Guam and the closing of other facilities even if the replacement of MCAS is not finished. If the Japanese Govt. chooses not to proceed with constructing those facilities in order to close those bases then that is the fault of the Japanese Govt. and not the people of Okinawa.

My opinion is the Japanese Govt. should be constructing the facilities in order to get those additional bases closed and show the people of Okinawa that they are serious about truly reducing the burden.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Why is Washington so hell-bent to urge Tokyo to expedite the Henoko relocation? I've been arguing it's because Washington's claim is motivated by greed and selfishness. 

The reason why I think so is :

Lawrence Wilkerson of Overseas Base Realignment and Closure Coalition (OBRACC), a retired U.S. Army colonel and also a former chief of staff to U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell, gave an interview to The Ryukyu Shinpo newspaper published Dec. 23, 2018. In the interview, he said there's no strategic reason except a financial one why Marine bases must be maintained in Okinawa.

He said costs to maintain bases and personnel are 50 to 60 percent cheaper in Okinawa than in California thanks to the Japanese government's generous financial support, so that, in spite of the fact that bases in California were being closed one after another, those in Okinawa were kept open or even being strengthened.

My contention on various threads on JT that the new base in Hdenoko is nothing but a white elephant is thus substantiated firmly by the person who was deeply involved in the U.S. military's realignmentthis (See my Dec. 24 post on the thread of "Okinawan-Hawaiian activist seeks U.S. support in halting air base work" run on Japan Today: Dec. 24, 2018. ()

0 ( +2 / -2 )

The United States committed to return lands on Okinawa as designated U.S. Marine Corps forces relocate from Okinawa, and as facilities become available for units and other tenant activities relocating to locations in Okinawa. The Government of Japan noted its responsibility to relocate all functions and capabilities that are resident in facilities designated for return, and that are required by forces remaining in Okinawa, including the housing necessary to support the remaining U.S. Marine Corps units, in coordination with the U.S. Government.

Section III doesn’t support your argument

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The Okinawa Prefecture is not causing a delay in the closing of Camp Lester, Camp Kinser, Naha Port or any other U.S. Military Base Land outside of MCAS Futenma. The closing and relocation of MCAS Futenma is a separate issue. The closure of Camp Lester, Camp Kinser, a small portion of Camp Foster and Naha Port depends on suitable facilities being built on existing bases on Okinawa, a new Military Port being built in Urasoe City and new facilities being built on Guam.

In 2012, the United States and Japan signed an agreement saying that the closing and relocation of MCAS Futenma was not linked to the transfer of troops to Guam and that the transfer of troops to Guam and the closing of Camp Kinser would take place regardless of what happened to MCAS Futenma.

For all of you people who are spreading the false information that other bases on Okinawa cannot be closed and the Marines cannot be transferred to Guam until the relocation of MCAS Futenma is completed and that the people of Okinawa are to blame for Camp Lester, Camp Kinser and other facilities other than MCAS Futenma not being closed, please read this Joint Statement from the U.S. Japan from the Ministry of Defense Website stating that the closure and relocation of MCAS Futenma and the transfer of troops to Guam and the closure of other bases on Okinawa are no longer linked.

http://www.mod.go.jp/j/approach/anpo/kyougi/2012/04/js_27.html

3 ( +3 / -0 )

i meant to quote Yuri’s comment

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Yabaru, again the example is Camp Lester with the ever changing demands for its return. It should of been handed over with the completion of the new US hospital 6 years ago.

Camp Lester’s return happens once the Marines can close the family housing when they move 9,000 marines and family to Guam. The Marines will move to Guam when the expansion of Campbell Schwab is complete. That expansion allows for closure of MCAS Futenma, Camp Kinser, and Camp Lester because it will support all the capabilities those bases provide as well as no longer require the personnel on island that occupy houses on Lester.

Bottom line, the US wants to close Lester and futenma but the prefecture is causing the delay.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

CrucialS:

Eminent domain may work, but this has only been done for individual citizens, never a state govt. As such, states have their own eminent domain in which it would be a grab first situation. State courts could throw out federal eminent domain, while federal courts could throw out state eminent domain. The supreme court would have to get involved, in which case several years have already passed as well as the administration and political will.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Yabaru, again the example is Camp Lester with the ever changing demands for its return. It should of been handed over with the completion of the new US hospital 6 years ago.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Japan's prefecture should've federalized, just as US states did. IIRC, a state governor can refuse to build or have built a military base in his state...wouldn't do it due to economic advantage.

This is not true, the US Federal has imminent domain and will build a military base where ever and whenever they chose. And, much like Okinawa, it would happen regardless of a governors support or a small vocal anti-base element. Virginia and California are excellent examples of that.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Hercologus, thank you. In his time, the most decorated US militaryu officer, Major General Smedley D Butler wrote, "War is a racket!"

https://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Bertie has a good point. According to USMC Maj Gen Smedley D Butler, who the MC bases in Okinawa are named after, DOD and its wars is the biggest racket, wich operates in 7 continents. His video enactment and essay are in the Internet. That explains why United States needs to manufacture enemies. Bill Still goes on to explain how the bankers took control over the governments through the central banks, which basically control the stakes in war industries,(hence the blatant War Department, which changed to “Defense” departement. His video documental, The Money Masters, is in You-Tube. An excellent documental.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@ darknuts

I aleady recognize that issue, one of problems of Japanese judical system. On the other hand there are problems that when a US soldiers are kept inside its military, he could return back to US while a judical process in Japan is on going, and even he does not need to come back to Japan after he is found guilty, or that the punishments are sometimes much lighter than those in Japanese system, or even in US mainland system.

These problems as well as long history of crimes, (including when those who accused for rape were kept inside US military) gives Okinawa citives a clear prejudice, although crime rate per capita for US troops is much lower than for Okinawa citizens.

What I meant was a obvious concession (rather seems to have occured from US troops itself) will ease opposition.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Again, Japan is still under US occupation and until the Japanese people use "people power'' and demand to regain their sovereignty they will remain under the heel of Washington. The Japanese vote for a PM but their PM reports to Washington.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Japan's prefecture should've federalized, just as US states did. IIRC, a state governor can refuse to build or have built a military base in his state...wouldn't do it due to economic advantage. I guarantee though, if Japan could and did build SDF bases throughout the US, some state governors would reject.

As an aside, does anyone know if there are actual foreign bases on US soil, and not just "joint" (ie Russian, British, Chinese)?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

コーリー, easy as the new airfield will lack the capacity to handle large cargo aircraft. Second it does not have a sufficient ramp space for all of the Marine aircraft assigned to Okinawa.

9000 Marines are being moved out of Okinawa as part of the deal. There won't be a need for all that space.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

This is the fault of the Japanese government. No Japanese government has had the cojones to stand up to the US and make demands that the sofa be revised.

The purpose of the current arrangement is to protect US service members from the Ghosn treatment. The US has expressed a willingness to revise the SOFA on the condition that police interrogations be recorded. The Japanese have not done that. Nevertheless, the US still hands over it's people right away in the case of serious accusations such as rape and murder, the time when they need those protections the most. If Japan wants to revise the SOFA agreement, they must first step into the 21st century with regards to thier legal system. Until they do, they get no sympathy from me on this matter.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

コーリー, easy as the new airfield will lack the capacity to handle large cargo aircraft. Second it does not have a sufficient ramp space for all of the Marine aircraft assigned to Okinawa. So the Americans and Japanese will "regretfully" say that MCAS Futenma will remain open at the right time. It was never their plan to close MCAS Futenma.

Yuri, you have no idea what you are talking about. and you just gotta be smoking something if you even think for a second that Futenma will stay open after the landfill is completed.

Just another conspiracy theorist trying to stir a pot with more lies!

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

 US-Japan Status of Forces Agreement   Japanese judicial access to crimes by US soldiers which have become frequently problematic   must be similar to that to crimes by Japanese.   Currently it is quite different from such agreement between US-Germany or US-Italy.

This is the fault of the Japanese government. No Japanese government has had the cojones to stand up to the US and make demands that the sofa be revised.

I agree it should be renegotiated. Few Japanese have even called for it, so this too is a major issue, hidden and not talked about by the media.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

It is nonsense to discuss the area ratio of US military bases in Okinawa and those in other area in Japan.

For example, municipal waste disposal facilities and crematories, which are generally disliked,

are built within a narrow area of ​​the cities and refusal from the area is often ignored.

This problem is similar to that, just like a garbage disposal facility and a crematorium, a base is built in the necessary place in necessity.

Okinawa is extremeley important against China, as Ishikawa, Aomori and Hokkaido against Russia, Nagasaki and Yamaguchi against North Korea, Nagasaki against China.

Therefore, there is no option to eliminate both Futenma and Henoko bases as a nation, and if Okinawa definitely denies Henoko, I think the govt should maintain Futenma.

As Tamaki says, people who oppose the government often say "democracy is tested".

What they have missed is that the government is chosen by a larger election based on democracy.

Some people say, there is nothing nonsensical as the importance of dugongs and corals,

since they are not at least negative to the fact that Okinawa airport and Urasoe military port are now being landfilled.

However, I insist that current situation should be modified.

There are at least two things to modify.

1) US-Japan Status of Forces Agreement

  Japanese judicial access to crimes by US soldiers which have become frequently problematic

  must be similar to that to crimes by Japanese.

  Currently it is quite different from such agreement between US-Germany or US-Italy.

2) Vague relation between Henoko extention and Futenma restoration

  The Japanese govt has been kept it very unclear.

  If they want more approval from people in Okinawa, this should be clarified, of cource in the manner that

  the Futenma base will be surely returned after a couple of years after the Henoko extention is finished.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

コーリー, easy as the new airfield will lack the capacity to handle large cargo aircraft. Second it does not have a sufficient ramp space for all of the Marine aircraft assigned to Okinawa. So the Americans and Japanese will "regretfully" say that MCAS Futenma will remain open at the right time. It was never their plan to close MCAS Futenma.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

I didn't miss the point. Please inform me of how you came to the conclusion that the new airfield built on Schwab and Futenma would remain open? The point of building the new airfield on schwab is to close Futenma.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

コーリー, you miss the entire point. There is no doubt it is a new airfield and MCAS Futenma will remain open even after this new airfield is open. The US Government has a long history of out right lying to the Okinawa people. The Japanese and US governments have zero respect for the Okinawa people. All this new airfield does is make a new target for the Chinese to hit in case of war.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Voiceofokinawa and anyone else,

Please do your research and stop looking at only one side and reading/watching CNN... it's not a new base, it's additions to an existing base. Do you call the new runway at Naha Airport a new airport? No, it's an addition to an existing site. How do you feel about the landfill in Awase? If you got your wish and all US military left, what happens to the housing economy? Everyone can't run Airbnb year round, all new condos being built. What about all the Japanese that work on base, where in the local economy can they work? Last I checked Okinawa had #1 in unemployment. In my opinion, just my opinion, how about focusing on other issues instead of putting all your eggs in one basket. Also, if the "majority" of Japanese are against the US bases, then why do they always go to the open bases?

1 ( +6 / -5 )

Trump will have his wall before this base gets moved out of Okinawa. Just accept it. To continue to whine about it is just immature at this point.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Give it a rest. Read my lip-writing: not gonna happen, Denny. Why does every governor ride in on this same unwinnable platform? I already know the answer so no need for anyone to post. The governor is better off tackling other important issues.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

One muppet controlled by the main muppet

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Okinawa’s anti-U.S. base campaign will thus go on until both Tokyo and Washington admit their mistake..

I strongly advise you to not hold your breathe waiting for one! Never going to happen, and the folks protesting will eventually go away and things will return to "normal" here.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

The Okinawa prefectural government estimated recently that the construction won't get completed for another 13 years, and projected costs have ballooned to 2.5 trillion yen ($22 billion), or about 10 times the initial estimate.

Is it worth spending such an amount of money (2.5 trillion yen or $22 billion) to build Futenma's replacement in Henoko for the U.S. Marines, when the most active core elements of them are to move to Guam, some 2,400 km away from Okinawa?  It's nothing but squandering of taxpayers' money.

If contingencies were ever to occur, the Sasebo-based USS Wasp would take them from Guam, together with Ospreys and some attack helicopters, to potential battle grounds in countries such as, according to one poster, Taiwan, the Philippines and Korea. If so, why won't those countries share the cost at all, obliging only us to pay the sacrifice?

The new base to be constructed is not necessarily for the defense of Japan but mostly for the defense of those third countries. Or else, it’ll be for the U.S. to maintain its hegemony and vested interests in the region. That’s the reason why Washington is so hell-bent, out of sheer greed and selfishness, to urge Tokyo to expedite the construction of the new base by all means.

Okinawa’s anti-U.S. base campaign will thus go on until both Tokyo and Washington admit their mistake..

2 ( +5 / -3 )

That is exactly why US military women 

and men!
0 ( +4 / -4 )

If the US Base really are of national significance - then why are 74.7 percent of the land for the bases contributed by Okinawa only and not equal in ALL Japan.

Look at the area where Okinawa is. Near East China Sea. Probably the most unstable and disputed region on earth. It is a flashpoint. That is exactly why US military women are there: to risk their life daily with the number one priority to protect Japanese citizens. Therefore, I am puzzled as to why (a handful of) people want to reduce this US protection. Make no mistakes: Commie PRC are eyeing Okinawa and licking there lips.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

Tom Denk

If the US Base really are of national significance - then why are 74.7 percent of the land for the bases contributed by Okinawa only and not equal in ALL Japan.

You clearly need to look at a map.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Sunday's vote showed 72 percent of Okinawans oppose the plan for the Marine air base being built on a landfill in coastal Henoko.

Who wrote this nonsense article? The only thing that Sunday's vote showed that most of Okinawa couldn't be bothered to go out and vote because they didn't care one way or the other.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

Such sentiments have resonated not only with the residents of the subtropical islands of Okinawa but also the rest of Japan as well as internationally.

This is a fanciful and completely unsubstantiated statement by AP.

The idea that a large percentage of the rest of Japan care about this issue is wishful thinking by the AP and those opposed to the relocation in Okinawa. As for any significant numbers of people internationally having any clue about this issue, let alone that it resonates with them, that's ludicrous.

It was a lazy, unsubstantiated statement by the writer of this article.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

The US bases are holding DOWN the economy. Without them, Okinawa would boom!

Okinawa last year beat Hawaii in tourist numbers for the year. Obviously those people didn't change their travel plans because of U.S. bases on the island.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

japan4life

I mostly agree with you. But it is not the problem of Okinawa only. I sometime think Abe at the bottom of his heart, he thinks the same way and Japan wants to defend the country by themselves with JSDF. However, the relationship with U.S. is far more important Japan to survive in this region of Asia.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

If the US Base really are of national significance - then why are 74.7 percent of the land for the bases contributed by Okinawa only and not equal in ALL Japan.

Frankly Okinawa has more than earned its right to contribute to much needed talks about equally and how serving heavily for over 70 years for the rest of Japan for "national significance" has left many scars and problems that need to be solved -- with diplomacy and not dictatorship.

0 ( +6 / -6 )

If Tamaki san want to legitimize his 'non'-binding referendum, then first he has to convince the rest of Japan that the terms of the referendum he setup wasn't biased in the first place, AND, to be closely followed with a referendum for the rest of Japan using the same terms or terms that better reflect his objectives ie 'no US base in Japan at all'.

When all eligible Japanese voters have voted on what is an issue of national significance, then Tamaki san can have his trialogue.

2 ( +8 / -6 )

All JSDF bases would be better for the people of Okinawa because the JSDF does not require as much land as the U.S. Military. The JSDF do not require Golf Courses, Tennis Courts, Bowling Centers, Fitness Centers, Movie Theaters, Military Clubs and all of the other leisure facilities that the U.S. Military and their dependents require. The JSDF would not require all of the Family Housing that the U.S. Military requires because most married JSDF members would live in the local communities. The JSDF would not require Dependent Schools because their children would attend local schools. The JSDF would pay Japanese Taxes and would spend their money shopping for food in local supermarkets instead of the on-base commissary. Local businesses would benefit more from JSDF personnel who would do almost all of their shopping on the local economy while U.S. Military spend most of their money on-base. JSDF personnel would be under Japanese Law.

So the people of Okinawa would benefit more economically and would be able to get back more than half of the land that is currently used by the U.S. Military if all of the bases were JSDF because most of the land taken up by U.S. Bases is for Military Family Housing, Dependent Schools and Leisure Facilities that are not needed by the JSDF.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

The US bases are holding DOWN the economy. Without them, Okinawa would boom!

Please get your head out of the sand. You want Okinawa to build more AEON's and San Ei's?

There is only so much tourism that the infrastructure can withstand, already there are close to and soon to be over 500 hotels and resorts on this island, with more tourists, foreign and domestic, than Hawaii, at close to 10 MILLION per year, nearly 10 times the local population!

Tourism is also an industry that only brings low-paying service industry related positions to the island, resulting in a greater need for low paying workers. Raise the pay, costs increase, and tourists stop coming! Use your head on that one!

Dont forget too the location of Okinawa and the the security of Japan as well! Okinawa will NEVER be without bases, just make your choice, American and JSDF, or all JSDF.

-1 ( +8 / -9 )

Everybody wants prosperity without foreign military bases. But is it possible?

The US bases are holding DOWN the economy. Without them, Okinawa would boom!

-2 ( +9 / -11 )

following a referendum that rejected a relocation plan for an American military base.

Only 37% of eligible voters rejected the relocation. Denny had a crushing defeat in the referendum. It's probably time for Denny to resign and let the Japanese government continue with the relocation, that will secure the safety of all citizens in such a dangerous area.

-5 ( +5 / -10 )

I understand the feelings of people of Okinawa. Everybody wants prosperity without foreign military bases. But is it possible? Could they have achieved the economic level of today without special spending and investment in Okinawa by the central government? Okinawa and Tamaki should keep it in mind that they should not harm the relationship with the central government to appeal and solve their problems effectively. This is above all a historical problem for Okinawa and Japan as well. We lost the war to U.S. We need U.S. in defense as well as in economy. Postwar recovery of Japan owes greatly to generous U.S. U.S. is a very important partner of Japan.

0 ( +9 / -9 )

I don't see the point of spending astronomical amounts of money defending "us" against "them" when "them" is spending astronomical amounts of money defending "them" against "us." Especially when the vast majority of "them" and "us" couldn't care less and have no interest in fighting anybody.

Stop spending the money and watch "them" take everything you own and make it "theirs".

The arms build up is a huge money making scheme for a very few. They and those who support them are the enemy.

This issue about Camp Schwab's landfill and the relocation of MCAS Futenma to that landfill, is not about an "arms build up", it's about lessening a burden on the entire island of Okinawa!

-4 ( +7 / -11 )

I don't see the point of spending astronomical amounts of money defending "us" against "them" when "them" is spending astronomical amounts of money defending "them" against "us." Especially when the vast majority of "them" and "us" couldn't care less and have no interest in fighting anybody.

The arms build up is a huge money making scheme for a very few. They and those who support them are the enemy.

6 ( +13 / -7 )

Sunday's vote showed 72 percent of Okinawans oppose the plan for the Marine air base being built on a landfill in coastal Henoko.

No, all the vote showed was that 72% of the people who voted oppose the plan. Nearly 2/3rd's of the eligible voters placed no vote, or either voted for the plan or had no opinion either way!

-6 ( +7 / -13 )

A petition to the White House in support of the referendum collected more than 210,000 signatures, and a new petition has been started to protest the construction at Henoko.

And once again, started by the same people who forced it on the prefecture last time. Get your noses out of Okinawa's business!

-3 ( +8 / -11 )

The governor of Okinawa pushed for three-way talks Friday involving his group of islands, Japan's central government and the U.S. on how to move forward following a referendum that rejected a relocation plan for an American military base.

Never going to happen. There is no way Abe will set a precedent like this when his government makes security decisions for the country.

-2 ( +9 / -11 )

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