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Gov't submits Futenma base relocation plan to Okinawa

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Just please get the US bases OFF Okinawa.

All 41 mayors of the Okinawan towns and villages are against the bases. And these people were elected on this basis. Creating yet another base in Okinawa goes directly against the wishes of the people.

For one thing they take up much needed land.

For another thing there is no need for them to be here.

And for yet another, they make the environment dangerous.

Without the US bases, there would be nothing to attack.

I find it interesting that Guam and Hawaii don't want them either!

-16 ( +8 / -24 )

Well the ball that once seemed stopped with the DPJ is now slowing rolling forward again about Futenma and Henoko. At least it's moving, but either way with the current Abe government, this move is going to take place whether or not Nakaima signs off on it. It would just make it easier for Abe's government to have him hanko the project.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

The Okinawa people are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. The based is not moving off the island. Take what is offered or get nothing.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

"Just please get the US bases OFF Okinawa.

All 41 mayors of the Okinawan towns and villages are against the bases. And these people were elected on this basis. Creating yet another base in Okinawa goes directly against the wishes of the people.

For one thing they take up much needed land.

For another thing there is no need for them to be here.

And for yet another, they make the environment dangerous.

Without the US bases, there would be nothing to attack.

I find it interesting that Guam and Hawaii don't want them either!"

@BertieWooster:

I respectfully disagree with some of your post. The surprising thing is, there is some of it that I do agree with on this issue. One thing I disagree with is where you say, "without the US bases, there would be nothing to attack". I think that all of Japan is fair game in the minds of the NK hierarchy. The bases being removed from Okinawa might make Okinawa a less attractive target, but I don't think that removing the bases in and of itself would make Okinawa completely free from attack. With regards to Guam, I'm not exactly sure why they don't want to relocate the bases there, but with regards to Hawaii, I'm thinking the reason is proximity. I do agree with you on the basis that, the people have voted for the removal of the bases, and the power of the vote is the cornerstone of democracy. If you make the people's vote irrelevant, then it forces them to resort to other means that probably wouldn't be good for anyone.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

BertieWoosterMar. 23, 2013 - 07:12AM JST Just please get the US bases OFF Okinawa.

Yes the Chinese PLAN would like that very much.

6 ( +10 / -4 )

National policy must be given priority to local opinions.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

The people of Okinawa do not want this or any of the bases. As for Red China how is America any different when they are forcing their will on others? Schopenhauer so you support oppression of local peoples? The National policy is made by outsiders both Americans and Japanese. So you are saying to be "free" we need to be occupied by a foreign power.

-13 ( +5 / -18 )

Everyone seems to forget the entire reason these bases exist in the first place. Like it or not, Okinawa is a key strategic point to keep China's power in check. Other than being an ally and maybe the thought that China could grow more powerful, the US gets nothing from this in a "colonization" manner. I'm sure many a soldier would like to leave Okinawa and forget about defending a country that's not theirs. But, until Article 9 is repealed (which, in my personal opinion, would be a bad idea), the base needs to stay for ALL of Japan's protection. If you can convince me that Okinawa is not a key strategic point in balancing China's power, then I'll sign off on removing the base. But until then, I remain unmoved by the Okinawan people's "plight"

7 ( +9 / -2 )

Without the US bases, there would be nothing to attack.

Can I say deja vu here?

It's insulting to the JSDF to call them "nothing". They have a LARGE presence in Okinawa and more and more are going to the outer islands as well, including a discussion of building a new Japan Ground Self-Defense facility in Miyako too.

Don't overlook the the JSDF when you say "nothing" in Okinawa.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

Governor Hirokazu Nakaima should just make a trip to PRC and invite Chinese investors to take over the island. No need to depend on Tokyo/ US to boost her economy!

-9 ( +2 / -11 )

"Nakaima, who is authorised to approve all landfill projects on the island, is expected to make a decision in six to eight months..."

Jeez, that's it? Not several years?

YuriOtani: "The people of Okinawa do not want this or any of the bases"

You probably don't want Okinawa to be part of China either. It never will be, so long as the US is there. If they go, as the minority of Okinawans want, it WILL be part of China before too long. Anyway, the bases aren't going anywhere, and Nakaima can try all he wants to renege on an agreement made TWICE, but the bases will stay and the plan will go ahead -- as promised (twice).

4 ( +10 / -6 )

For one thing they take up much needed land.

Broken (wrong) record. It would be really nice once in a while for people to use their heads and think before they comment on issues that they can only discuss through the mouths of others and are influenced by a media that is 100% off the left deep end and anti-US military.

Take Henoko and all bases south of Kadena will be returned. That is an incredible amount of land and to be brutally honest those areas are where the land is needed most. You also hear ZERO complaints from people wanting their land back from up north, because there is no way in hell they are going to make the same amount of money off that land if it comes back to them. (It won't because it's a hypothetical talk about those bases)

Btw I guess people never heard, even though it was all over the local news a few weeks ago, the former mayor of the city of Nago, the city in which Camp Schwab is, and where the proposed new heliport is planne for, led a group, a large group of representatives with a petition from locals, thousands signed it, to HAVE the base moved to Henoko, and requested the Minister of Defense to seriously consider their request.

PLUS, of course every mayor of every village, town, and city are going to vote against the bases, it's the politics of Okinawa to do so. What politicians here typically say in public is different than what they mean in reality.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Oh I forgot to add; for the first time in 46 years the area of Henoko had an election for the Ku-cho, or area manager or mayor. Typically the people of Henoko talked between themselves about who was going to do the job and they never needed an election.

Remember Henoko is the proposed locaation move for Futenma.

Anyway this year 2 people wanted the job, one anti-base, one pro-base. The election ended in a tie 407 votes for each candidate. So don't preach about everyone not wanting the bases.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

smith our Governor never agreed for a new base that will do NOTHING to protect our island! He will not sign the permits so would you like to see the Americans use their troops again. A lot of the Marines would just love an excuse to fire into an unarmed crowd. The people of Okinawa want to have all of the foreign bases removed. I want my land back! Yubaru at least the SDF is not a foreign military. Anyhow we do not need American troops to keep the Chinese out. The SDF is good enough to keep Japan free. American troops are fine but the problem is they are a problem as well.

-8 ( +4 / -12 )

He will not sign the permits so would you like to see the Americans use their troops again.

Just have to wait and see, (from the article, which is incorrect in calling him a Mayor, he is the Governor)

I have been saying that (accepting the request) is virtually impossible and my thought has not been changed,” the anti-base mayor told reporters in Okinawa.

Nakaima, one month or so prior to his last election as Governor of Okinawa was pro-base. (That's a fact) Nakaima is also a member of the LDP .

What's the point? He's changed his mind before and he could very well change it again for the good of ALL Okinawa and not just the whims of the politicians.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

US bases in Okinawa are NOT here to protect Japan, apparently, but to protect American interests.

If so, you would think they would do it on their own soil.

Since 1972, Okinawa has been under Japanese administration.

China is not going to attack Okinawa or any part of Japan and NK is a joke.

China is a trading nation. Any act of direct aggression would be suicide. They would lose FAR more than they would gain. Chinese finance is so closely tied up with US and Japanese finance that it would be almost impossible. Also, there is a very large Chinese population in the U.S.A. They may be Chinese-American, but they are still Chinese and keep a contact with friends and relatives in the PRC.

While the US and Japan waste cash and energy building up the military, China is slowly and steadily investing its cash, modernising, accumulating wealth and making very visible inroads into Africa and Australia.

Therefore, I say, without the US bases, there is nothing for anyone to gain by attacking Okinawa.

The US occupied all of Okinawa until 1972 and almost one fifth of it since then.

It's time the land was returned.

-10 ( +1 / -11 )

@Yubaru makes a good point that at the time Henoko was chosen as the relocation site, the mayor of Nago at the time was in favor of the relocation, as was Nakaima. It's exceptionally difficult to sign international agreements if local politicians expect to have some veto power, especially when the positions of local politicians aren't consistent.

The Henoko relocation has been decoupled from the other base realignment, meaning that the plan to close most bases on the southern part of Okinawa will proceed independent of Henoko's completion. This was decided last year and was in recognition of the fact that Henoko's completion is well behind schedule. Ironically, decoupling the two issues may mean that Futenma's closure will take much longer than if they had been kept together.

There was a good article in the NY Times last year talking to residents of Henoko village and asking them what they think of the relocation. It's one of the few examples I've seen of anyone asking them what they think. Not surprisingly, the views are a bit more nuanced than those that the local politicians state publically:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/15/world/asia/okinawan-views-on-us-military-presence-are-nuanced.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

The US, for their part, haven't done a good job of articulating to the public why a Marine Air base is necessary to keep within the prefecture. Then again, it's rare that local politicians expect to have veto power over what is essentially a matter of national defence policy.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

YuriOtani

Anyhow we do not need American troops to keep the Chinese out. The SDF is good enough to keep Japan free.

Don't make me laugh. I refer you to the SDF's new Thunderbirds recruiting campaign and their previous Seamanship! recruiting campaign and beg to differ. Just think of the demographic these ads target and the resulting recruits...

<http://www.japantoday.com/category/entertainment/view/thunderbirds-sdf-all-systems-go#comment_1527338 >

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJrIF7pHyO0

2 ( +4 / -2 )

I thought as some point there was a vote in Okinawa about being part of Japan and the separatists narrowly lost. You get what you sow.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

The SDF is good enough to keep Japan free.

This is at the crux of Japan's national defence policy - no government in the past 50 years has agreed with this statement. The LDP and DPJ both see alliance with the US as necessary for Japan's long-term security interests given the current role of the JSDF and the limitations of the constitution. If Japan is going to reduce or eliminate dependence on the US for national defence (and I firmly believe that it should) then Japan first needs to reach some national consensus on the role of the JSDF and whether it can meet Japan's long-term security objectives. Until that happens, there will be no major realignment of the Alliance with the US and likely no major reduction of the number of US forces stationed here.

I do believe that it's long overdue for Japan to have a discussion on how it can meet its own national defence needs without reliance on the US. The status quo is unsustainable (especially vis-a-vis Okinawa's heavy burden of both US and JSDF facilities) and this is something that the US and Japan should have realized long ago. But until that discussion happens, there won't be any fundamental changes.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

I thought as some point there was a vote in Okinawa about being part of Japan and the separatists narrowly lost. You get what you sow.

Where in the world did you ever hear of this? Okinawa is a vital part of Japan. Yes it was once an independent kingdom until roughly 160 or 170 years ago, but like other former island nations, were annexed and became a part of Japan.

There is a teenie-tiny separatist group calling for independence but they don't even make the news anywhere but on some fringe pages of the internet somewhere.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Okinawa belongs to OKINAWA, JAPAN. The USA is a guest. It is time for JAPAN to decide what it wants and will do, and PROTECT itself. The USA taxpayer has to suffer from the false SEQUESTER budget decreases such as closing of simple things like airports. Send all the dependents and people living off bases home.

-7 ( +1 / -8 )

YuriOtani: "A lot of the Marines would just love an excuse to fire into an unarmed crowd."

Wow, for a Japanese living in the US, this sure comes out of nowhere and is completely unfounded. As for Nakaima, he's more fickle than the wind -- he is simply pandering to the vocal few in Okinawa (or in the US, like yourself) who are anti-base and ant-American. He has absolutely no say in what will happen, but if he LOOKS like he is putting up a fight (against his own party, I might add) he'll get the right-wing vote. And those same people who whine and complain about the bases are the same ones to shut up when a Chinese sub enters Okinawan waters, and are the same ones who profit monetarily from the bases being there. Who asked them to build their residences around a US base?

Noriyosan: "The USA is a guest."

The US is protecting you against various threats, bottom line. They are more than a guest -- it is their home.

3 ( +9 / -6 )

The governor of Okinawa needs to do what is best for his people. That is clearly to relocate Futenma and a few other bases in high density areas over to the inaka side of the island. Getting the bases off Okinawa is not an option available to Okinawa as long as it wants to remain a prefecture of Japan.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Smithinjapan,

They are more than a guest -- it is their home.

This must be some strange and unusual definition of "home" that is unfamiliar to me.

80% of US military personnel never leave the base except to visit the "ladies of ill repute" and other establishments set up for "entertainment" at Kadena Gate 2.

They live on base, do their shopping on base, and work on base.

They refer to locations as "near Foster," or "after Gate XX on 58."

With a few exceptions, THEY AREN'T HERE!

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

how about when you(okinawa) are independent, then you get to decide...if not, your momma(jpn) gets the say

last i heard, she has precedence

0 ( +2 / -2 )

"The people of Okinawa do not want this or any of the bases. As for Red China how is America any different when they are forcing their will on others? Schopenhauer so you support oppression of local peoples? The National policy is made by outsiders both Americans and Japanese. So you are saying to be "free" we need to be occupied by a foreign power."

@YuriOtani:

You really don't see the difference between the U.S. and China? Just for argument sake, let's say the U.S. did pull out of Okinawa and China were to think of Okinawa as a part of China, just like they do the Senkakus, and they decide to occupy Okinawa. Do you think the Okinawans would still have freedom of the press and the freedom to protest the Chinese bases being there? And how about the raping of Okinawans? As detestable as that is, how many PLA soldiers would be brought to justice for it, once they started doing it?

2 ( +4 / -2 )

"US bases in Okinawa are NOT here to protect Japan, apparently, but to protect American interests.

If so, you would think they would do it on their own soil.

Since 1972, Okinawa has been under Japanese administration.

China is not going to attack Okinawa or any part of Japan and NK is a joke.

China is a trading nation. Any act of direct aggression would be suicide. They would lose FAR more than they would gain. Chinese finance is so closely tied up with US and Japanese finance that it would be almost impossible. Also, there is a very large Chinese population in the U.S.A. They may be Chinese-American, but they are still Chinese and keep a contact with friends and relatives in the PRC.

While the US and Japan waste cash and energy building up the military, China is slowly and steadily investing its cash, modernising, accumulating wealth and making very visible inroads into Africa and Australia.

Therefore, I say, without the US bases, there is nothing for anyone to gain by attacking Okinawa.

The US occupied all of Okinawa until 1972 and almost one fifth of it since then.

It's time the land was returned."

@BertieWooster:

Is China acting like a "trading nation" in handling the situation over the Senkakus? What leads you to believe they would react any differently over Okinawa minus the U.S. bases? Don't you think they would be handling the Senkakus situation a lot differently if the U.S. had bases on those islands?

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Japan is a de fato colony of US after WWII, so US makes use of it for US military purposes, the army serve to monitor the Asia and also to control Japan. No colony exists without army.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

Atsugi base will close next year for two reasons:

There have been many complaints about noise from local residents.

The very presence of this base creates a danger. In the event of an act of military aggression, it becomes a target.

Take away the US bases and there is no reason for anyone to attack.

Not that they would anyway.

But having no US bases actually INCREASES safety.

Getting all the US bases OFF Okinawa would make it a safer place.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

Wouldn't it be nice if there was a way to safeguard our freedom without having to put up with any noise or crimes committed by a tiny minority of the safeguarders?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

The rocky, uninhabited islets, called the Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China, are located near rich fishing grounds and potentially huge oil and gas reserves.

-sounds like a good place to put a base and the location is closer to China, NK.

The other solution for Okinawa is to make a floating base and eventually cut the ropes loose and let it float out to sea. =Really all military bases should be like this.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

The marines aren't needed in Okinawa... simple as that. In fact what would happen if Okinawa was starting to sink into the ocean and it would take five years for that to happen? Where would the US put the bases? I bet the Japanese wouldn't allow them on the mainland.. that's how important they really are, they're outdated relics of the cold war.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

I'd force Kadena AB to take MCAS, like Senators McCain, Levin and Webb suggested. Any General that says it can't be done won't get his second star when leaving Kadena..

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

realdoll,

I'd force Kadena AB to take MCAS, like Senators McCain, Levin and Webb suggested.

It's the obvious suggestion, isn't it?

Why go to the astronomical expense (which Japan would have to pay for) to built an entirely new base in Henoko, destroying what's left of the natural environment, when all the Okinawan bases would fit into Kadena?

It's huge!

Space is totally wasted!

In an overcrowded place like Okinawa, inside Kadena looks like California. Broad swathes of green between the sparsely laid out buildings.

Or better still, as I keep saying, just get the bases OFF Okinawa.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

realdoll

that's how important they really are, they're outdated relics of the cold war.

And I suppose that's why our Marines have seen more action this past decade than ever before?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

"inside Kadena looks like California. Broad swathes of green between the sparsely laid out buildings"

Too bad it's not like that outside Kadena, but, incredibly, that's what the Okinawans/Japanese did with the land.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Serrano,

Too bad it's not like that outside Kadena, but, incredibly, that's what the Okinawans/Japanese did with the land.

Have you ANY idea of land costs here?

You might get a tiny house with no garden to speak of for, about 200,000 dollars if you were lucky. And how long do you think it would take someone to pay that off on a salary of 1,500 dollars a month?

That's exactly why returning the land that used for US bases would make money for Okinawa/Japan.

Okinawa is losing money by not having the use of their land.

Another reason they want to close the bases and get their land back.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

BertieWooster

Okinawa is losing money by not having the use of their land.

The owners of the land on which the bases sit are paid rental sums that are far beyond anything they could hope to get if they were to manage the land themselves. And let's not forget that because the bases are there the entire prefecture of Okinawa and its population receives much higher percentage of developmental/construction/upkeep funds from the GOJ for infrastructure (ports, roads, utilities, etc.) as well as significantly lower taxes on gasoline in comparison to the other 46 prefectures. You of all people should know that the reason the anti-military movement is unsuccessful is because their goal isn't to really effect the removal of the US military from Okinawa but to cause enough of a stir and complain enough to the GOJ to ensure these compensatory funds keep coming. They don't really want the bases gone because then Okinawa wouldn't be special any more, just one of the 47 prefectures for a change, and it would spell the end of the government handouts and a very grim outlook for the local economy if it has stand on its own.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@BertieWooster @YuriOtani

Exactly guys! US definitely have over stayed her presence in Okinawa. Guam will do the job just fine for US Pacific Power Projections. There is no more political systems war like in the old days where there is fear of Communism coming over and replacing democratic countries. So why is US still in Okinawa to annoy China? Japan is strong enough and US can lead from behind from Guam. And Mad Kim will target Okinawa and Japan mainland if US attack N Korea. After all long range bombers, subs, carrier groups, stealth planes with refueling, they are good enough deterrent!

I read somewhere the Governor don't really look out for the Okinawans, so his position in public against the base is not necessarily what he really mean. Perhaps he can be bought? And if that is so, China should invest more in Okinawa to 'buy' his vote. This will as I said earlier make Okinawans less dependent on Tokyo and US. Are you listening Chinese investors?

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

@Bertie......your ignorance about the realities and FACTS in Okinawa are amazing for someone who tries so hard to convince others of their sincerity.

Learn about the world, learn about Okinawa, understand the people and the politics, and stop insisting on keeping your head in the sand.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

USNinJapan2,

The owners of the land on which the bases sit are paid rental sums that are far beyond anything they could hope to get if they were to manage the land themselves.

This doesn't happen to be true.

Shintoshin makes 15 times more money than when it was used by the US military and Chatan's Hamby Town makes 20 times. Okinawa is a perfect place for tourist development. Tourism is already big here. Especially tourists from Taiwan, South Korea and even mainland China. Kadena would be a large city with hotels and resort facilities and would make MUCH, much more money than it can in rent.

the entire prefecture of Okinawa and its population receives much higher percentage of developmental/construction/upkeep funds from the GOJ for infrastructure (ports, roads, utilities, etc.)

Where are these development/construction projects then?

I know they are finally building up the south end of the expressway. But the state of the roads in back streets is terrible, full of potholes, many places look like a third world country. There is no train or subway. Sure, there is a token monorail system. But this is NOTHING like Hokkaido, for example which has an extensive rail network, extensive expressway system with road heating and subways in its major cities.

I don't see Okinawa as getting any special treatment until VERY recently.

The monorail is recent as is the paltry 50km or so of expressway. And the expressway is designed more to connect the US bases than anything else. Look at where the exits are.

But the improvements, such as they are, are the direct result of the anti-base movement.

Okinawa will survive much better without the US bases.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

USNinJapan2 you know I was in the SDF and your comments are insulting to me.

I lived through the 27 years of oppressive American occupation. Force the base on Okinawa, so where does that fit in with America being the "Land of the Free"? Being "anti-base" is not being "Anti-American" unless the people of Okinawa are still expected to obey our betters. Your argument exposes the lie of the Americans. The basic flaw of suppressing people so they can be "free".

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

North Korea if not a threat to Japan and Okinawa. Only in the movies is it a threat and their rocket and atomic programs are jokes. The American bad dream is having them fall and soon after having their budgets cut. The Governor knows this new base does NOTHING to defend Okinawa. The Americans want a free airfield paid for by the government of Japan. A few Ospreys are good for training and next to useless in battle. For every one of these turkeys they could of bought 10 or more upgraded CH-46's.

-7 ( +2 / -9 )

I lived through the 27 years of oppressive American occupation. Force the base on Okinawa, so where does that fit in with America being the "Land of the Free"?

I think that you're barking up the wrong tree. It was the mainland Japanese that "forced" the base on Okinawa.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

Sure, there is a token monorail system. But this is NOTHING like Hokkaido, for example which has an extensive rail network, extensive expressway system with road heating and subways in its major cities.

Apples and oranges, Bertie. There is a subway system in one Hokkaido city: Sapporo, population 2 million, Japan's fourth largest city. Naha's population is barely one-sixth of that.

Hokkaido's land area is more than 35 times that of Okinawa.

It's true that Okinawa has no road heating, so maybe the central government should get on that.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Why go to the astronomical expense (which Japan would have to pay for) to built an entirely new base in Henoko, destroying what's left of the natural environment, when all the Okinawan bases would fit into Kadena?

It's not an entirely "new" base at all. Get your facts straight for once please. It's a landfill project off of Camp Schwab.

You know your rhetoric and constant repetition of half-truths and down right incorrect information get tiring.

All the bases on Okinawa could NOT fit on Kadena, not even close.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Yubaru, then call it a new airfield and destruction of the best coral reef on Okinawa. The United States does not have the right to bases in Okinawa. The government of Japan is being forced by the Americans to host their bases. During the 60's the American CIA put down the Okinawa independence movement. America arrested and put in prison these people so they could keep their bases. So what will America do when the Governor refuses to sign? You can not make him do it!

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

All the bases on Okinawa could NOT fit on Kadena, not even close.

Well, then they'd better go somewhere else then.

Guam?

Hawaii?

California?

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

Yubaru, it's an entirely new base.

The proposal is to move Futenma to Henoko/Schwab. That's a lot of building work. That's a lot MORE environment destroyed. Futenma is not a small base.

It is not just a "land-fill project." That is just PR.

It also includes new helicopter landing areas in the forest. At Takae and so on.

Even the Japanese government had to lie and play tricks to get an "environmental assessment" through.

http://www.japanfocus.org/-Urashima-Etsuko/3673

It's not as if there were any reason for it or benefit either to Japan or to Okinawa.

If the U.S.A. really insist on playing toy soldiers, they can go and do it somewhere else.

The land they are using is needed by the people who were born and who make their livelihood in Okinawa.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Yubaru, then call it a new airfield and destruction of the best coral reef on Okinawa.

You know spreading lies instead of facts does no good for people who read along here and believe what you write.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Yubaru, it's an entirely new base.

Cripes, how many times do you have to be told....All they will do is build a new heliport on the landfill area. The air station will then move to Camp Schwab hence your misunderstanding in thinking it's a new base. it isn't, just extending Camp Schwab.

It also includes new helicopter landing areas in the forest. At Takae and so on.

That is not a part of the air station move, and you probably dont know this but there are landing areas all over the central and northern parts of Okinawa.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

YuriOtani

USNinJapan2 you know I was in the SDF and your comments are insulting to me.

My comments are nothing compared to your usual stereotyping of US service members stationed in Japan, particularly Okinawa. The very fact that you, who used to serve in the JMSDF, believes that the JSDF is a potent armed force capable of unilaterally protecting Japan from the various possible contingencies is proof positive that the SDF is out of touch with reality. If you're insulted, it's only because truth hurts when it's not what you want to hear.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

No more bickering please.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

BertieWooster

I don't see Okinawa as getting any special treatment until VERY recently.

You consider 12 years to be, "Very recently?"

Special treatment Okinawa has enjoyed courtesy of the GOJ, just a few highlights:

Gasoline tax break; on the average ¥7/L cheaper than the other 46 prefectures. (Okinawa isn't even ranked if you look up current gas prices across Japan because gas sold there is subsidized by the GOJ.) Toll road tax break; tolls are 40% cheaper than the mainland. Airline fuel tax is 50% and fares are on average ¥5000 cheaper for flights to/from Okinawa compared to mainland flights. Tax/Duty Free shopping facilities authorized to boost tourism; only prefecture to have this. Lower tax on locally produced alcohol (awamori, Orion Beer) Major tax breaks authorized for IT businesses willing to move their operations to Okinawa. ...and the list goes on.
2 ( +4 / -2 )

USNinJapan2,

Are you joking?

So the Tokyo government is collecting less tax from Okinawa than other places. It's not like they are putting money into it, it's just that they are taking less out!

A full tank of gas costs 100 yen or so less in Okinawa than mainland Japan. Gosh!

Have you been to the DFS?

It's not exactly crowded out with shoppers.

It's not number one on the list for tourists either.

The only actual money the Tokyo government is putting into Okinawa, apart from the "sympathy" budget (protection money) paid to the US is an extension to the south end of the expressway.

Is there anything else?

Do tell me if I missed something.

-7 ( +1 / -8 )

Have you been to the DFS? It's not exactly crowded out with shoppers.

Do you actually KNOW anything about what you are talking about? The DFS shop in Naha is for tourists, people who live in Okinawa can not purchase anything that is sold there. Brand name goods are sold there at hugely discounted prices to tourists.

The only actual money the Tokyo government is putting into Okinawa, apart from the "sympathy" budget (protection money) paid to the US is an extension to the south end of the expressway.Is there anything else?Do tell me if I missed something.

Oh my gosh, you don't realize how badly you put your foot in your mouth this time. The national government subsidizes a lot here on Okinawa like USNin accurately pointed out to you.

The money from the national budget that comes into Okinawa total literally BILLIONS of $$ per year, without which many social welfare and infrastructure projects would be dead in the water.

If you've flown in or out of Naha Airport (meaning that unless you came here by boat) you came through an airport that was partially funded by NATIONAL government funds. If you've ever road the monorail, that's from National government funds. Ever put gas in your car or moped, that's subsidized by the national government. The list is endless, even people who say they can see are blind.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

BertieWooster

Yes, there's plenty more, like the fact that all road work, not just expressways, construction and upkeep of any public infrastructure (like fishing ports, sewage treatment, water mains, etc. etc. etc.) is subsidized X4 by the government in compared to the other 46 prefectures. Scoff all you want but the cost of living in Okinawa is dirt cheap compared to any other prefecture and that's all because the GOJ compensates the prefecture indirectly for the perceived military "burden". Ever been to any island prefecture, state, etc. where the cost of living is cheaper than the mainland. Didn't think so. The day the US military leaves Okinawa will be the day Okinawans start paying the same as the mainlanders.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

BertieWooster

Oh, and I forgot to mention that all of these perks that Okinawa receives from the GOJ aren't provided to ANY OTHER PREFECTURE. You're right about one thing Bertie. Okinawa definitely is unique, at least on this count.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

The day the US military leaves Okinawa will be the day Okinawans start paying the same as the mainlanders.

Actually it will be worse considering the location and logistics involved in bringing anything to Okinawa. The logistics are a nightmare and the average Okinawan person takes things for granted (like Bertie too) that the government is subsidizing and are unaware of what the cost to them is going to be like if there was no military here.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Well, even a few yen off a litre of gasoline, a magnificent DFS that no one goes to (Yubaru, I did know it was for tourists. I had kind of guessed that) and reduced taxes on the expressway (there is only ONE and it's about 50km!) do not make up for the totally unnecessary and massive new military construction planned for Henoko.

The government of Japan is obliged under the "Guam Agreement" to bear not only the costs of the new base in Henoko but to contribute a massive sum toward constructing another in Guam to house a few thousand marines.

This was actually unconstitutional as Article 95 of the Japanese Constitution requires the consent of the majority of the voters of that district. Okinawans' wishes were clearly ignored. The Diet simply tromped all over Okinawa.

The environmental impact assessment (EIA) was an EIA in name only. It ignored the fact that a massive military construction, including two long runways projecting far out into Oura bay and a 300 metre long wharf would be incompatible with the delicate coral and forest environment of the Oura Bay area. It was a mere formality, a sham.

It was a trick. Ostensibly a U.S. concession to the withdrawal of US troops from Japan, it is plainly designed to increase the Japanese contribution to the alliance by substituting a new, high-tech and greatly expanded base at Henoko for the inconvenient, dangerous and obsolescent Futenma. The figure of 8,000 marines to be withdrawn also turned out, under questions in the Diet, to be also false. The more likely figure was less than 3,000.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2009/11/11/commentary/yet-another-battle-of-okinawa/#.UU8F1vaCVGI

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=60077

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

YuriOtani: " The United States does not have the right to bases in Okinawa. "

As a matter of fact they DO have the right to have bases there. THey also have the right to expect Japanese to live up to their promises.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

YuriOtani: "I lived through the 27 years of oppressive American occupation."

Don't you mean you lived OFF the 'American occupation'? Most of the people whining about the bases being there BUILT their houses AROUND the bases and have made their living off them. And your experience, Yuri, was so oppressive and did so much harm and damage that you moved to the US? :)

Nakaima is an idiot, pandering to a few radicals in the prefecture when his own party knows there's nothing he can do to stop them from doing what the Japanese government has promised more than once.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Bertie: "This must be some strange and unusual definition of "home" that is unfamiliar to me."

This is a tough one, but bear with me. "Home" -- the place you live. Do you think if someone at a restaurant or bar says, "That's enough for me guys, I'm going home" it means he's going back to Europe or Africa or wherever the human race began? No, it means he or she is returning to his or her domicile -- the place they live, the place they leave to go to work and pay local taxes, the place they depart from every day knowing they are defending a group of ungratefuls such as yourself.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

BertieWooster

The government of Japan is obliged under the "Guam Agreement" to bear not only the costs of the new base in Henoko but to contribute a massive sum toward constructing another in Guam to house a few thousand marines. This was actually unconstitutional as Article 95 of the Japanese Constitution requires the consent of the majority of the voters of that district. Okinawans' wishes were clearly ignored. The Diet simply tromped all over Okinawa.

Chapter VIII Local Self-Government, Article 95 - A special law, applicable only to one local public entity, cannot be enacted by the Diet without the consent of the majority of the voters of the local public entity concerned, obtained in accordance with law.

This doesn't apply whatsoever to what is going on with moving of Marines to Henoko, Guam or anywhere. This article prohibits the national government from PASSING A LAW that's applicable to a locale without the consent of the local population. THE GOJ isn't any passing any laws here; they're simply deciding that a military facility, a national asset, is to be constructed in a specific location. Although it's nice to have, they government doesn't need the consent or approval of the local government or populace to do this. Local approval is and should never be a prerequisite for matters of national security.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

smithinjapan,

Oxford English Dictionary:

HOME: the place where one lives permanently, esp. as a member of a family or household: I was nineteen when I left home and went to college

Home is not "the place where a person is crashing tonight," or a "temporary residence." Joe militaryman does not stay here long enough to call it home. Very few of the locals know he exists. They know him at the bar he goes to. Some of the girls who "entertain" the troops know him when he drops in for his "hand relief" every week. He doesn't speak Japanese and has no intention to learn. Many servicemen stay on the bases most of the time and hardly ever go out.

And even if you come across a US serviceman who thinks he's at home here. The locals around him aren’t at home with him. They don't want him here. If there were such a person he would be living a dream.

Okinawans have had to put up with the US occupation far too long.

Atsugi residents complained about the noise and the potential danger of having a military base near where they live. A US base is a potential target for anyone with a grudge against the US military, a number that is growing rapidly. And of course, if Atsugi is hit, then a lot of non-combatants are going to get drawn into it, as they were in Iraq and Afghanistan. Well, Okinawans are complaining about the noise, the drunkenness, the violence and the threat of attack the US bases bring to Okinawa.

They also want their land returned because they can make far more money in a peaceful way by using the land to build up tourism. As they have in the small areas that have been tossed back to them.

The US bases are holding down the economy of Okinawa.

They just want the bases OFF Okinawa. No Futenma, no Henoko, no Kadena, etc.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

Bertie: "Home is not "the place where a person is crashing tonight," or a "temporary residence." Joe militaryman does not stay here long enough to call it home."

yeah, I figured you'd have a tough time accepting the definition. Guess what, when I travel somewhere I am required to write my HOME address as the place I live -- Japan. It's my home. Same as the people defending you.

"Okinawans have had to put up with the US occupation far too long."

They've LIVED off the US bases, and that's all there is to it.

"Atsugi residents complained about the noise and the potential danger of having a military base near where they live."

Maybe they should have thought twice before building their residences AROUND the base.

"A US base is a potential target for anyone with a grudge against the US military, a number that is growing rapidly."

Is it now? China? NK? Both would hit Japan before the US, but neither will hit Japan because the US is protecting you despite your objections.

"The US bases are holding down the economy of Okinawa."

No, they are not.

"They just want the bases OFF Okinawa. No Futenma, no Henoko, no Kadena, etc."

Too bad. A promise is a promise -- even if it's had to have been issued more than once. Suck it up.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Here's what will happen: Nakaima knows full well the base will be built with or without his consent, and the US remain in Okinawa. He will therefore 'be against it' but accept all the benefits. The base will be built, and the US will remain in Okinawa. A very vocal minority of Okinawans will complain about the noise AFTER they decide to relocate to where the new base is so they can profit from it.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Bertie: "HOME: the place where one lives permanently, esp. as a member of a family or household:"

So Yuri's home is the US, then? What right does she then have to talk about Okinawa being her home? Ah, the contradictions!

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Most Okinawans want the bases closed, and don't want a new airbase further north nor an expanded presence at the U.S. Air Force base at Kadena to accommodate Marine aircraft from nearby Futenma. "Time" magazine published a short article in early 2012 questioning there are still Marines on Okinawa, as did "Forbes": "Give Okinawa Back to the Okinawans."

The Marines also failed to close Camp Kinser as promised in 2006, a logistics base located in a densely populated area along the beautiful China Sea -- an ideal spot for tourist hotels. The Marines must relent and promptly close Futenma and Kinser, and close nearby Camp Foster as well. Marine units could easily move to other U.S. military bases in Asia. These changes would increase the relevance of the U.S. Marine Corps while eliminating the major diplomatic conflict with the Japanese. This would remove half the 17,000 Marines from Okinawa, and could be accomplished within four years with no new construction or additional funding.

http://www.g2mil.com/okinawa-solution.htm

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

"A lot of marines would love an excuse to fire into an unarmed crowd." For gods sake, Yuri, get a grip! How in the hell is anyone supposed to take anything you say seriously when you constantly spout such utter tripe?

4 ( +5 / -1 )

The Marines also failed to close Camp Kinser as promised in 2006, a logistics base located in a densely populated area along the beautiful China Sea -- an ideal spot for tourist hotels.

One do some research PLEASE before you post WRONG information. The area can't be used for swimming, and there is a road that is going to be running right along side it so it would certainly ruin the view of any of your ideas of hotel construction. The road is already under construction as well.

The area is being returned but get this it's the Japanese government, specifically the Okinawan government that is holding it up.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

smithinjapan clearly you do not know what the people of Okinawa want. Also we are Okinawa people not Japanese. Nobody from Japan would ever mistaken me as Japanese. You do not have any ideal what it is like to be thought of as second class in your own country. I still think you are American and military at that, why because you stick up for them too much.

kurumazaka the Marines are made up primary of the lower uneducated class in America. In America there is a lot of dislike toward Japanese Nationals. Yes even today they want "payback" for the Pacific War. They can not get past it.

You know Smith the Americans destroyed the lives of my family. We lost everything really and unlike America we do not act like land is rented. We the current generation are merely caretakers of the land. We do not own it as such but are expected to hand it over to the next generations. We would not needed to have begged the Americans to eat their garbage if they had not destroyed our island.

I say this to you with no malice the people of Okinawa have the right to determine the fate of our islands. Do think we need to go to the United Nations and file protest against the continued American military occupation. What I find odd is your argument for continued repression of the Okinawa people. As long as there are American military bases on Okinawa we will never be free.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

"kurumazaka the Marines are made up primary of the lower uneducated class in America. In America there is a lot of dislike toward Japanese Nationals. Yes even today they want "payback" for the Pacific War. They can not get past it. "

@YuriOtani:

Really? What is the "lower uneducated class in America"? To enlist in the Marine Corps, you have to score as high on the ASVAB as you do to get into the Air Force. Even higher than when I was an active duty Marine. And are you sure there are still Marines today, looking for payback from WW2? I'm 45, my grandparents are dead, and both of my parents are too young to even remember the war. Anyone my age is pretty much retired from the Marine Corps, save a few generals and a few holding the rank of Sergant Major. Do you really think anyone serving today is really looking for payback?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Yabaru there is no road construction around Camp Kinser. Okinawa is full of planned projects, partly completed projects and if I could sell all of the American lies would be rich. Just look at Route 85 it ends in a hillside. Another broken promise!

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

Bertie: "Most Okinawans want the bases closed"

No, they don't. Don't tell me you're using the statistics of a hundred or so people marching in protest!

YuriOtani: "Also we are Okinawa people not Japanese."

You're Japanese. There is no such thing as an Okinawan. And anyway, Okinawa is not your 'home' -- just ask Bertie and s/he'll clarify that for you.

"You know Smith the Americans destroyed the lives of my family. We lost everything really and unlike America we do not act like land is rented. We the current generation are merely caretakers of the land. We do not own it as such but are expected to hand it over to the next generations. We would not needed to have begged the Americans to eat their garbage if they had not destroyed our island."

And so you moved to the country you hate? The country who's nationals you constantly berate? Okinawa definitely got a raw deal 70 years ago, there's no doubt about it, but stop blaming the US for it while lying on your Walmart pillow. The blame lies squarely with the Japanese, and since the Japanese did what they did in history, they are now doing a little of what's called 自業自得. If the US were ever to leave Okinawa based on the complaints of a Japanese living in the US, the Japanese would then start complaining that they have to learn Mandarin. Nakaima would line up to praise the Chinese entourage for some voting points.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

YuriOtani: "I still think you are American and military at that, why because you stick up for them too much."

Don't you understand that that's why your arguments can never be taken seriously? You're 100% wrong on both counts, and if you look at ANY thread about the US military save their presence in Okinawa you would know full well I am against most of what they do. But you cannot see past your own bias and hatred, which you have proven time and again. You think I'm American military because I believe Japan should live up to its promises, and chide the Japanese who built their homes around American bases only to complain about the noise -- well, I certainly would never assume your a former SDF employee living in a land you hate so much based on your comments. But feel free to do your usual 180.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

YuriOtani: "Yes even today they want "payback" for the Pacific War. They can not get past it."

Well, YOU certainly can't get past it, that's for sure.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Smith the results of an Island wide vote confirm what I am saying. You live in Tokyo and probably on an American Base. No Canadian person would stick up for the American military like you. As for the USA I disagree with their military but not the people. Another sign of oppression is not being able to disagree with a government with out being called anti-government. Vote after vote goes against the bases. In 1996 there was a non binding vote

. Out of an eligible 909,832 voters, 482,538 cast their ballots in favour of the proposition, 46,232 against, with 12,856 invalid ballots. 368,206 eligible voters abstained from voting in the referendum.

Only an an American can call people who did not vote in favor of US Bases. Jesus give me strength! 10 to 1 against the bases. The people who did not vote did not so because it was non binding.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

Smithinjapan,

I don't know why you need to be so picky about the use of the word home.

Yuri is Okinawan. Okinawa is her home. If asked "Where is your home town?" she would answer with the name of a town or village in Okinawa. To what degree she is at home in the U.S.A. I don't know, but I would imagine that she interacts with people in her community, visits her husband's relatives, goes shopping in the local area and sends her children to local schools.

A serviceman on a US base in Okinawa might think of his base as his home, but with the same permanency as a tramp thinks of a derelict house as his "home." He works on base, shops on base, sends his kids to school on base, speaks little or no Japanese, has no knowledge, interest in or respect for the people who live outside the base. He lives in a cocoon. This is home in the sense that Alcatraz would have been home to an inmate.

I would suggest that you get out a bit more and listen to Okinawans talking about their situation. You might be surprised. Show a bit of respect. These people have not had an easy time over the last 80 years.

Yuri has an opinion.

Listen to her.

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

Smith the people of Okinawa never promised anything to the Americans. The Americans are at blame because they force Japan to sign these treaties. They arrange to remove Japanese PM's that disagree with them. Now they have a LDP censored who will follow orders. This is what will happen, the Governor of Okinawa will refuse the permit. A special Okinawa only law will be passed. The Japanese Police will try and break through the protestors. The SDF will be ordered to break through the protesters (maybe). After failure the Americans will order the Japanese government to remove the protestors. They will fail and then the US troops will be sent in. The Americans will attempt to censor the putdown of the protestors. That too will fail and across the world people will see peaceful protestors being attacked by US troops.

As for "payback" the class was happy when the professor discussed the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Some of them thought the "lesson" will have to be repeated. It is strange every time I get soft on American military learn to regret it. I give up lets agree to disagree. One fact is true the Americans are suppose to be defending us against a country that has never committed aggression against us.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

Bertie: "I don't know why you need to be so picky about the use of the word home."

To prove the point that it is irrelevant, and to show that you and others waver on the meaning when it suits your means.

"Yuri has an opinion. Listen to her."

Okay, let's do that: "You live in Tokyo and probably on an American Base. No Canadian person would stick up for the American military like you."

Wrong, wrong, and wrong. I think it's pretty clear emotion is getting in the way of logic, and you suggesting I 'listen' to someone living in the US while constantly bashing US troops who defend Okinawa is pretty sufficient proof her opinion is not being disrespected but demands no respect to begin with. Yuri is the same poster who said a man deserves to be castrated for cheating on his spouse, and then later claimed she never said it. She CONSTANTLY backtracks and wavers on her arguments about American troops and the presence in Japan, saying suddenly the US would counter any "red China" threat.

"If asked "Where is your home town?" she would answer with the name of a town or village in Okinawa. "

Ah, so now it's 'home town' and not home?

"He works on base, shops on base, sends his kids to school on base, speaks little or no Japanese, has no knowledge, interest in or respect for the people who live outside the base. He lives in a cocoon. This is home in the sense that Alcatraz would have been home to an inmate."

And you ask me to show respect after this comment?

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Bertie: "I would suggest that you get out a bit more and listen to Okinawans talking about their situation."

I have friends in Okinawa spanning from 30 years old to 80, and while some of them begrudge the US presence ALL of them admit the necessity. None of them are fans of Tokyo (hence Yuri's automatic insinuation that I must be from Tokyo if I disagree with her on this), but none of them are for reneging on promises of the US remaining there.

I know quite a bit about Okinawa, and know a number of the people, thank you. Should I walk up to an Japanese I don't know who lives next to the base and ask them why they moved there and why they don't leave?

3 ( +5 / -2 )

YuriOtani: "Now they have a LDP censored who will follow orders."

What party does Nakaima belong to?

3 ( +6 / -3 )

I guess you are right, Yuri. Ignorant rednecks enlist in the Corps so they can hopefully get the chance to mow down some unarmed Okinawans...as pathetic of a response as I have ever read. You might want to consider letting Bertie do your arguing for you. You are embarrassing your cause.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

YuriOtani: "As for "payback" the class was happy when the professor discussed the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Some of them thought the "lesson" will have to be repeated. It is strange every time I get soft on American military learn to regret it."

So once again you show that it's not logic you are arguing with, but personal baggage. Look on any thread related to the atomic bombings and you will see I am 100% against what happened, and I think that the lesson you opted to take part in was disgusting if people seemed happy about the bombing (my guess is emotion is getting in the way again, but hey), but I do not see the bombings of 70 years ago and the troops who currently reside in your 'home' as comparable. You said in a previous comment that the US 'can't let it go', but it's pretty clear it's you with the grudge and who cannot let it go. What's worse, you deride Tokyo and all of Japan save Okinawa one minute, then talk about being a mentality victim of the atomic bombings as though you are one and the same as the people you balk at. You claim I'm American based on my sticking up for US troops, which you are wrong about. You claim I live in Tokyo, which you are wrong about. These are but more proof that you cannot honestly argue about the topic at hand. It's no wonder the US and Tokyo government never take the minority of those polled in Okinawa seriously.

The US is there to HELP you, Yuri. Call them fat, call them unintelligent (and then demand we respect your opinion), but there they are, for the people in your 'home town' who decided to build their houses around the bases.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

kurumazaka: "I guess you are right, Yuri. Ignorant rednecks enlist in the Corps so they can hopefully get the chance to mow down some unarmed Okinawans...as pathetic of a response as I have ever read. You might want to consider letting Bertie do your arguing for you. You are embarrassing your cause."

Why can't I be as brief and to the point as you? Brevity has never been my strong suit.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Smith you are wrong my "hometown" is a US military base. It is under American occupation as is many Okinawa peoples hometowns. As to why they built them so close? Where else would they build them?

So if you do not live in Tokyo where do you live?

Oh we do not shop on American base. I shop in a supermarket called Reasors. I refuse to shop at Wall$mart and a lot of our things were bought in Okinawa. In a couple of years we will move back to Okinawa. Get my guy some proper medical attention. Only good thing about America is my kids are getting a proper Catholic education. They are also receiving a proper Okinawa education.

Maybe I should run for office on a anti-base platform and as a Socialist. Again anti-base is not anti-American and the kids in America are both fat and uneducated. My kids are both smart and fit as the Catholic schools do a good job at both.

-6 ( +4 / -10 )

Also we are Okinawa people not Japanese.

There is no such thing as an Okinawan passport.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

Yabaru there is no road construction around Camp Kinser. Okinawa is full of planned projects, partly completed projects and if I could sell all of the American lies would be rich. Just look at Route 85 it ends in a hillside. Another broken promise!

Just goes to show that you dont live here. Next time check it out.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

I would suggest that you get out a bit more and listen to Okinawans talking about their situation. You might be surprised. Show a bit of respect. These people have not had an easy time over the last 80 years.

I would suggest you take your own advice here and listen with both ears open and not with your preconceived notions showing all over you.

Okinawa is ALWAYS going to be a pawn in someone's game of chess purely based on it's location. Sometimes the naivety of people posting here about Okinawa is amazing to say the least.

Yuri has an opinion.Listen to her.

???????

6 ( +7 / -1 )

"Again, anti-base is not anti-American and the kids in America are both fat and uneducated."

Whaaaaat??????? Can you not see the contradiction in this sentence?? If you run for public office, you will have to defend rants such as this under the glare of the media. Good luck with that!

5 ( +6 / -1 )

YuriOtani: "Again anti-base is not anti-American and the kids in America are both fat and uneducated. My kids are both smart and fit as the Catholic schools do a good job at both."

Where do you live, Yuri? Where do you kids live? Where were they born? Should I assume they are fat and uneducated because they live where you CHOSE to live? My my my how you show your hipocrisy. So you have fat, uneducated kids born of a former SDF member who hates the US (where she lives) and is against the Tokyo government (whom she worked for before quitting). Nice job, Yuri.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

YuriOtani: "Maybe I should run for office on a anti-base platform"

Works for the useless Nakaima, so might work for you. Nothing like doing something out of spite, eh?

4 ( +5 / -1 )

YuriOtani: You didn't answer my question, though. What party does Nakaima belong to? Is it that hard?

4 ( +6 / -2 )

YuriOtani: " They are also receiving a proper Okinawa education."

Define 'Proper Okinawa education'. For someone so against the 'red China' you seem pretty eager to grasp their ideals. Oh.... but wait.... when it comes to Okinawa it's 'different'? Admit it, Yuri, you're the same as them. As for the Catholic education, well... I hope while you were preaching hate the kids learned to see that you give and you get, unlike you. No doubt they will grow up questioning a bunch of the hate you spouted, and all the power to them. You can't give up some weird definition of what happened a long time ago before you were born, why should they?

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Smith you are wrong my "hometown" is a US military base. It is under American occupation as is many Okinawa peoples hometowns. As to why they built them so close? Where else would they build them?

You "home" and your families well paid for land are on a military base, but your hometown is Futenma which is a part of Ginowan.

Where else should they build their homes? Or move into apartments? How about Naha, Haebaru, Yonabaru, Nanjo, Yaese, Itoman, Tomigusuku, there are countless other locations and loads of land all over the island that people can and do buy homes and live there. They made the choice to live next to the base, the city made the choice to build a SCHOOL at the end of the runway, they had choices and now they should live with them until the base gets moved.

Then you'll have your family land back and can assist in building another JUSCO (Aeon) or San Ei.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Yubaru,

There is no such thing as an Okinawan passport.

There's no such thing as a Scottish passport, but there soon will be!

The arbitrary divisions that governments inflict on people don't necessarily define nations!

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Smithinjapan,

For one who purports to argue logically, some of your recent posts to Yuri are very emotional and, honestly, a bit close to the bone.

Let's stay on topic, shall we?

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

YuriOtani

In 1996 there was a non binding vote

Ah yes, the referendum a year after the heinous abduction/rape of the 12 year-old girl. About as useful as measuring anti-muslim sentiment among Americans in 2002. I sincerely doubt you'd get the same result if the referendum was conducted today...

4 ( +7 / -3 )

The arbitrary divisions that governments inflict on people don't necessarily define nations!

And that along with 110 yen will buy you a can of coffee from a vending machine too. No one said this, however Yuri constantly makes the mistake of not accepting the fact that while she may be of Okinawan heritage it does not mean she is not a citizen of Japan.

There's no such thing as a Scottish passport, but there soon will be!

You are very competent at attempting to compare apples and oranges.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Oh one other thing, Nakaima has announced that it will take at least 8 to 10 months to give a reply to the national government regarding his decision.

If he was 100% against the move it would be easy to give an answer in a couple of days, after reviewing the submitted documents. We'll see which way he flops this time.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Bertie: "For one who purports to argue logically, some of your recent posts to Yuri are very emotional and, honestly, a bit close to the bone."

All of my arguments have been logical, and if emotional only counter to Yuri's (who once again makes herself absent after making herself the fool). Cut to the bone? Sure, but I'd say it's more cutting to the point. You and her contradict yourselves so many times in your own argument it's laughable, but you ask me so 'stay on topic'? The topic is Okinawa.... Yuri's home hometown home which she loves but hates the fat defenders of, etc. etc. LOOK AT HER COMMENTS! The only thing "off topic" here is you suggesting I'm off topic for talking about the topic.

Yubaru: "Oh one other thing, Nakaima has announced that it will take at least 8 to 10 months to give a reply to the national government regarding his decision."

No kidding. And during that time he'll spout against the bases, form panels to talk about forming panels to talk about thinking about it, etc. For a guy who's so convinced, he seems pretty unconvinced. It takes this guy 8 months to make a decision about something he's against? Who pays him?

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Yuri: "Then you'll have your family land back and can assist in building another JUSCO (Aeon) or San Ei."

OUCH! Truth hurts. But hey, fly back from your home in the US to complain about American bases the Japanese built their houses and schools around and then get back to us about who is wrong if any one.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

smith no I will take my land back, no JUSCO. Maybe I should raise pigs on the land?

-7 ( +2 / -9 )

smith no I will take my land back, no JUSCO. Maybe I should raise pigs on the land?

I thought you said it was your brothers land and he's the one who gets paid for it.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Yubaru: " thought you said it was your brothers land and he's the one who gets paid for it."

Ouch again! Truth times two.... errr... five. Six? Either way, Yuri can't counter except perhaps to suddenly raise pigs from thousands of kilometers away?

YuriOtani: "Maybe I should raise pigs on the land?"

Would mean more bacon, which I'm sure as an American--ah, you better not -- might end up like a fat American you speak so highly of.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

About raising pigs can not do so while my land is under military occupation.

Can't raise pigs in Ginowan anyway, moot point.

Okinawa Demonstrators will block the construction on the land and sea. What makes you think it can be built?

If there is a will there is a way. If the government decides to build it there it will get done. You are old enough to remember Narita.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Whether we, on this forum, trade rational or irrational arguments back and forth or not, is irrelevant - we're not deciding Okinawa's fate in this issue. This game is being played out by the US military, by proxy of the US government, and Tokyo; unfortunately, Okinawans are a marginal player. The problem is they have virtually no leverage; they have a stake in the game, but almost no chips and the cards in their hands aren't any good.

Going back and forth about relocation hasn't changed the fact that the bases remain in situ, and this is a win for the US military and Tokyo. Despite an annoyance factor, I suspect they don't fundamentally care if the issue is drawn out for years to come.

Putting aside all the strategic arguments, maintaining bases is a bureaucratic and budgetary win for the US military. They may not get the budget they want, but they will get a budget, and that sustains the status quo, and that's a win. Foreign bases are an operational headache, but it's a headache the US military is used to, and fairly good at; having the need to sustain an operation is an operational win. Let's not forget too, that Tokyo pays the US for its presence. Folks, that's revenue; nobody in their right mind messes with revenue.

What Okinawa needs to do is change the game, not try to win the current game; they can't. Okinawa needs to find a lever that will make Tokyo and the US military / Government start taking them seriously. I have no idea what that lever might be, but I'm sure a lot of people smarter than me can figure one out. Popular dissent could be a component, but so far the necessary scale hasn't materialized; essentially, Tokyo and the US has been able to ignore it.

Until Okinawa can wield a big enough stick, Tokyo and the US military / US Government will continue to run roughshod over them - smiling apologetically all the while...

2 ( +2 / -0 )

BertieWooster San and Yuri

South has to rise again for sake of their dignity, economy and human rights. Otherwise, they will be permanent second class in their own land. It was an independent kingdom before. It has to fight for independence again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryukyu_independence_movement

SmithJapan

Okinawa or Ryuku people love to eat pork like Red Chinese. Who cares about what other poster think or insult them? They have rights to choose their preferred masters or their own destiny. Ryuku kingdom was tribunal state of Qing dynasty until 1895.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Correction of my last sentence is "tribunal state of Qing dyansty until 1879 instead of 1895. There is no doubt that Okinawa will be more prosperous and peaceful under S Korea or Taiwan or PRC instead of puppet of US known as the land of setting Sun or Nippon.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

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