Japan's defense chief criticizes China over submarine near disputed islands

No other Japanese PM is more stupid than Noda, who nationalized Senkakus. Japan broke it, Japan should fix it. Japan should either give up the claim, or put aside the dispute and let future generations to give it up. It is not in Japan's interest to keep it. There are so many other things to do, big things.

No other Japanese PM is more stupid than Noda, who nationalized Senkakus.

That administration was stuck between a rock and a hard place. If they didn't nationalize the senkakus, a Tokyo governor Ishihara was going to buy it for the metropolitan government. Ishihara was a fierce right-winger, and this could have been even worse.

Strangerland, I don't buy it. Is it wise for Japan to upset China than the governor ? Noda could simply issue an order to forbid any Japanese to provoke the issue, based on understanding between Japanese and Chinese govts.

Noda should be interrogated on the matter at the court.

Strangerland, I don't buy it.

What don't you buy? It was a statement of fact, not an opinion.

The CCP will not stop in its aggressions. Japan should hurry up and build an ocean-study institute or some such thing on its islands and invite the local countries to the institute. The evil of the CCP needs to be challenged and hemmed in on all fronts.

It is an excuse. The fact is that Japan was tricked into an anti China coalition.

Midnight Sun Tribe, what local countries are you talking about ? Who was your geography teacher ?

South Korea, China, Taiwan, etc.

The CCP is evil and does not represent the Chinese people. Still, I think Japan could invite them along with other democratic nations to an institute built upon Japan's Senkaku Island. It would send a message of peace.

Midnight Sun Tribe, Taiwan is a part of China, not a country. Besides, what is a legal basis for Japan to build an institution on Senkakus ? There are many ways to send message of peace. Just visit China as a tourist is a good start.

Taiwan is a country. While few nations recognize it, it still is a country. People can play games all they want but the CCP is a dictator, and a dictatorship is not a legitimate form of government. Taiwan is a functioning democracy. And still, both should be invited to Japan's institute on its Senkaku islands to study and advance the interests of the ocean.

Midnight Sun Tribe, Which law says that if you can play a game, then you are a country? If CCP is not legitimate, then UN isn't either. Okinawa people can play games, is it a country ?

"Play games" means people can pretend that reality is not reality, but their games do not change reality. Taiwan is a country with its own army, president, democratic government, and it deals with the whole of the world on its own. The Senkaku Islands are Japanese and Japan should build a nice little ocean insitute there and invite everyone over for a party.

Midnight Sun Tribe, Not even Abe would recognize Taiwan as a country. Forget your whole of the world. Taiwan people are Chinese people, with Chinese genes, with Chinese traits. Go to a doctor to check it out.

Taiwan is a part of China

Taiwan is a country. The Chinese just don't want to admit it.

Nobody stopped the expansion of man made island building by China, so why should Japan stop or be stopped by building on the islands. Japan should force its own right and hand by taking on the CCP directly as it did in the old days...Enough of the talking and time to start building. Otherwise give them up. It's put up or shut up time.

Strangerland, Taiwan wasn't a country even under Japanese occupation. Japan returned it back to China at the end of WW2. Taiwan has a govt, but that govt isn't a representative of majority of Chinese population. Under current Taiwan govt's constitution, Taiwan isn't a country, just a province of China. If Taiwan claims herself as a democratic govt, then she should respect majority Chinese views. In fact, Taiwan current govt fails the test.

Strangerland, Taiwan wasn't a country even under Japanese occupation.

I can't comment on that one way or the other, but what I can comment on is that Taiwan is a country. It is not run by China, it has its own economy, own government, and own people.

China just does't want to admit that.

The Japanese criticism comes after Asia's two biggest economies had pledged to improve ties.

Honestly, Japan needs to grow up. If China hasn't done anything illegal, then let it go. This type of bickering is endless, and detrimental to the relationship. When will Japan be able to show the world that it can be more mature than China, or even South Korea for that matter?

Strangerland, Tokyo has own economy, own government, and own people, is Tokyo a country ? California has its own economy, own government, and own people, is California a country ? London has own economy, own government, and own people, is London a country ?

Tokyo has own economy, own government, and own people, is Tokyo a country ? California has its own economy, own government, and own people, is California a country ? London has own economy, own government, and own people, is London a country ?

Nope, but there is a major difference between those places and Taiwan: those places are cities (well Tokyo is a metropolis), and Taiwan is a country.

Strangerland, If Taiwan a country, then tell me what is its territory ?

what is its territory ?

Taiwan of course.

And there is no 'if' about it. It's a country, no matter how much China would like to pretend otherwise.

Japan returned Taiwan back to China at the end of WW2.

Wrong, the territory was forfeited and was turned into Terra Nullius till ROC declared it as their own.

Thus it is sovereign territory of ROC.

Whether ROC is accepted as a sovereign nation or not is another story all together.

Taiwan does not recognize China as rulers of Taiwan. Taiwan is self governing and pays no taxes to China.

Tokyo, California & London recognise Japan , America and UK as the ruling government and they pay taxes to those countries.

Senkaku islands are governed by Japan and claimed by Japan. This is recognized by the world. China also claims these Islands. A claim in itself is not enough. Rather than negotiate with Japan who governs the Islands, China wishes to bully Japan into submission. Much as it wants to bully Taiwan and those with counter claims in the South China Sea's.

The message for the world is that China gets what China wants and if it doesnt it will send warships and warplanes until it does get what it wants. The only effective measure against a bully is to stand up to it.

Japan Should send warships to within 12 miles of the man made forts built by China in the South China sea every time it detects Chinese ships near the Senkaku Islands.

Triring, who was your history teacher ? Shame on he/her.

"The Three Great Allies are fighting this war to restrain and punish the aggression of Japan. They covet no gain for themselves and have no thought of territorial expansion. It is their purpose that Japan shall be stripped of all the islands in the Pacific which she has seized or occupied since the beginning of the first World War in 1914, and that all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and The Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China. Japan will also be expelled from all other territories which she has taken by violence and greed. The aforesaid three great powers, mindful of the enslavement of the people of Korea, are determined that in due course Korea shall become free and independent."

--1943 Cairo Declaration

Oh my, it seems your out of date as the US who governed the Senkaku islands ceded them back to Japan after the war.

Perhaps your not on the email list for historical updates?

Peter14, True, Taiwan doesn't pay China taxes. China is the only recognized govt by UN as the only govt of China, including Taiwan as a part of China. Taiwan and Mainland are in theory still in civil war. How to resolve the sovereign issue is between ROC and PRC. Taiwan is not a country, only a province of either PRC or POC.

Aside from a 1945 to 1972 period of administration by the United States as part of the Ryukyu Islands, the archipelago has been controlled by Japan since 1895. *wiki

China has managed through political means to have most countries stop recognizing Taiwan as an individual country or do no more trade with China. To think that people actually agree that Taiwan is part of China still would be erroneous. They agree with China for the money, not because they actually believe it.

Peter14, US didn't return Senkakus to Japan, US still doesn't recognize them as a part of Japan, US has no right to give them to anybody because US doesn't own them.

@Akie

Read the SF peace treaty article 2b.

(b) Japan renounces all right, title and claim to Formosa and the Pescadores.

Where does it say it was given back to any nation?

As for islands in the Pacific like Palau and the Micronesia, they were moved from Germany to Japan protectorate after the WW1 as compensation for Japan's participation to the allies.

Tiring, Cario Declaration is the basis for Japan's surrender. SF treaty isn't recognized by either POC nor PRC.

Akie, The US is committed by an act of US law to protect the Senkaku Islands, which it recognizes as being governed by Japan, in the event of any attack on said islands by anyone including China. The US does indeed recognize them as being in Japanese hands.

The US had governance of those Islands from the end of WWII, with no disagreement from China. They returned them to the original governing nation prior to WWII which was Japan. Without any disagreement from China. It was only later in the 1970's when it was found there may be substantial deposits of oil in the immediate area that China thought to lay claim to the Islands.

Peter14, there is a big difference between govern and sovereignty.

Peter14, POC doesn't recognize Snekakus as a part of Japan's territory from the very beginning, long before 1970s.

Japan never recognized Snekakus as Chinas territory. Perhaps its just a case of first in, best dressed.

These Chinese submarines will make great reefs... once they are sunk to the bottom of the ocean.

Taiwan is not a country, only a province of either PRC or POC.

No, it's a country. It's not a province. They are self-autonomous, with passports, currency, government, and citizens recognized as being Taiwanese.

Any way you look at it, a Chinese Sub in Japanese waters is a provocative move. A strong response is required.

Peter14, China doesn't need Japan to recognize Snekakus as Chinas territory, all China wants is to have Japan to recognize a dispute.

Peter14, we don't know what happened. You can't rely on Japanese govt on this matter. Besides, it is a disputed area, we have to accept the reality.

As for Senkaku there is no dispute it is Japan's sovereign territory recognized by treaty and acknowledged again through the SF peace treaty ratified by 48 nations.

Akie,

We can rely on the Japanese government as much as, if not more than the Chinese. Japan governs the Senkakus and that is a fact all to often ignored by China as it tries to bully Japan by sending warships and warplanes over Japanese controlled waters and airspace. That is not China being "friendly" That is China being a bully.

China goes ahead in the South China sea, claiming it all including inside others 200 KM economic zones. It may recognize there are disputes but it does not stop China from its outrageous actions and claims in that area. Why should Japan recognize anything for China's sake? No good can come of it.

Stand up Japan. Dont be pushed around by China.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Send ships to the South China Sea. China is asking you to.

not all laws are treaties. Cario Declaration is a part of legal framework of international system, a much higher law than SF treaty.

Nope, sorry but a declaration is just an unilateral announcement and has no legal binding especially in a international framework.

ONLY AN INTERNATIONAL TREATY has that kind of power.

Peter14, China was bullied by Japan in 2012. Japan provoked China by nationalization. Before that, everything was good for 40 years since the diplomatic relationship restored.

South China Sea is a separate matter. The fact is China doesn't claim others 200 KM zones. When China made the claim, no such a zone defined.

Peter, you are very provocative to call Japan up against China.

Tiring, PRC is nation, people and territory. You can't separate them. No one can, no law can.

Akie, It is China that is being provocative.

In 2012 the islands were privately owned by a Japanese Citizen, who sold them to his country as was his right.

That China chooses to interfere in a domestic Japanese affair shows its hand.

China's claim to the South China sea has been arbitrated and a ruling against any validity has been judged. China ignores that ruling so why should anyone at any time listen to china on such matters in the future? Answer, they shouldnt!

Akie, your not going to win this argument. Period!

But Japan being a free country, you have the right to keep trying.

An artificial island doesn't have EEZs. Under UNCLOS it only gains 400 METERS as territorial waters.

Even then the PRC's claim has no internationally recognized basis,

"The Diaoyu islands and associated islets are China's sovereign territory," he said.

If Iigun Island, (Iigun) Kuba Jima, (Iigun) Akajima and other small islets in the Senkakus (called the Diaoyus in China) are "China's sovereign territory" as Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Lu Kang asserts, then China has every right to have its coast guard ships and this time a submarine navigate in the waters near and around these islands. 

The problem is there's an abundant reason to question whether these islands have been the bona fide sovereign territory of China historically and under international law.  The seamen of the Ryukyu Kingdom had called these islands by vernacular names way long before China called them Diaoyu (釣魚島）, 黃尾礁 and 赤尾礁.

Peter14, To nationalize the Senkakus is not a domestic matter. 45 years ago, both Japanese leaders and Chinese leaders had an agreement to put aside the dispute for the sake of friendship between two people. That worked very well for 40 years till Noda broke it.

As for arbitration, China rejected it even before it started. China has the right, authorized by international laws defined in UNCLOS. China can't break laws.

I guess the easy solution is for Japan to sell the islands to a Japanese business or businessman and they can be fully developed with hotels and runways and a nice fishing port. Then China cant complain, since they are once again in private hands.

Akie, the islands have been governed by Japan all those years before the private owner sold them to the Government. No different to the Japanese government buying any Japanese land back from private ownership. It remains governed by the same country. China wants what it does not have, and has no rights to. So it sends in the military. China's new MO. Make a claim, send in the military.

Peter14, as I said, governance is not sovereignty. There is clear definition in international laws of the difference. Some Islands occupied and governed by other nations but Japan still claims them. You have to be consistent in laws.

@AkieToday 08:37 am JST

Strangerland, I don't buy it. Is it wise for Japan to upset China than the governor ? Noda could simply issue an order to forbid any Japanese to provoke the issue, based on understanding between Japanese and Chinese govts.

One problem with rule of law is that you can't just issue such arbitrary orders without a legal basis. If the Japanese national government can forbid a private purchase without a legal basis, then it can do this to anyone, for any reason it perceives to be correct.

@Tahoochi Today 11:02 am JST

Honestly, Japan needs to grow up. If China hasn't done anything illegal, then let it go. This type of bickering is endless, and detrimental to the relationship. When will Japan be able to show the world that it can be more mature than China, or even South Korea for that matter?

Let me point out the consequences of this latest Chinese stunt. Before, even if the Chinese send a warship, Japan can take a moderated stance and respond with its Coast Guard. However, now the Chinese are sending submarines, which Coast Guard ships can't even detect. To even monitor them, Japan now would have to deploy the JMSDF around the islands. You do understand how the close proximity of warships might just lead to an unfortunate accident?

Akie, my final words on this subject.

Japan governs the Islands. It is my opinion and that of the Japanese Government and others that Japan has sole sovereignty to the islands.

China and you both dispute this.

As the Islands are in the hands of the Japanese Government, any unilateral actions taken by the Chinese like sending warships and warplanes to these islands is an armed incursion into Japanese waters and airspace. Many would consider this an act of war. It is most certainly an act of aggression and provocation. China is taking a dangerous course of action and should not complain if any misunderstandings occur that cost them a plane or a ship as a result of their provocations.

China should back off and try to find an alternate method of addressing its grievance with Japan on this issue.

Peter14, you are not fully informed on the issue. China is trying to talk to Japan to reverse the situation but Abe rejected it. China asked Japan not to nationalize in 2012, Noda, ignored it. China asked Abe to recognize the agreement between two leaders 45 years ago in 2013, Abe rejected it. Abe, instead, asked the US to be involved militarily, against all Japanese laws, international laws, and treaties with China to resolve conflict in peaceful ways.

I don't know Abe's hidden agenda. But I can see that Abe wants a war between US and China, as many others want a war between Japan and China.

It doesn't matter what kind of wars, Japan will be a victim again.

As for the submarine, Japanese govt only stated it is Chinese but failed to explain why.

People assumed that China invaded, but there was a report that Japan invaded first.

It doesn't matter who invaded first, the whole issue is just another reminder that Abe still has no solution on this. He has the privilege to report it to US immediately, as he did. But as a PM, he has to take the responsibility to resolve it peacefully and quickly.

Forget about North Korea. It's these war mongering shenanigans that China’s despotic Xi is pulling that are going to take everyone to war.

The fat silly dragon just likes to poke the sleeping samurai. One day the samurai is going to wake up and cut the dragons head off.

The idea of an ocean institute is an interesting one, but the Chinese will never go for it. Still, it would be very interesting to see there response if Japan decided to do that. If China attacked, it would be a very bad look for China and risk U.S involvement as well.

They certainly don't care about their reputation these days.

There will come a time when China makes a move on those islands. Its just a matter of when. I sincerely hope Japan has a plan for that eventually, because its not hypothetical, its a forgone conclusion.

One day the samurai is going to wake up and cut the dragons head off.

If China takes those islands, expect Japanese nationalism to emerge from the shadows.

I don't think that would be in China's interests.

China doesn't have stealth capability for it's sub's ?

Japan should stop letting the US lead it by the nose. It should be more concerned that it is being governed by Washington and the Japanese people vote for a Japanese PM, but they are governed by the US. Japan cannot even get US bases off their shores. Japan continues, after 70 years, to be occupied by the US.

I can't quite work out how a Chinese submarine being close to Japanese territory is against norms of international rules. (Itsunori Ododera).

Thre submarine did not enter Japanese territory, nor make any hostile or aggressive actions.

The submarine did not enter Japanese territory, nor make any hostile or aggressive actions.

If the US did the same, all China haters will be saying " Boo Hoo " it is international water.

Simply say, no matter what China do, all the haters here will be finding excuse to find fault with China.

Japan should not leave Senkaku uninhabited , establish strong SDF presence on the islands and make them fullys secure from frequent hostile foreign encroachment in the East China Sea.

Simply say, no matter what China do...finding fault with china

If the world is saying that china is wrong thats good logic to say, that china is wrong, but you go on ahead and apologize for them.

Chucky138Today 08:43 am JST

The submarine did not enter Japanese territory, nor make any hostile or aggressive actions.

Agreed but that conveniently leaves out the fact that such behaviour is contrary to the norms of international behaviour and the country that would squeal the loudest if someone did it to them is China!

What China wants to say is: We are not yet befriend again!