The requested article has expired, and is no longer available. Any related articles, and user comments are shown below.
© Thomson Reuters 2023.Japan's 'anti-Russian course' makes treaty talks impossible: TASS
MOSCOW©2024 GPlusMedia Inc.
The requested article has expired, and is no longer available. Any related articles, and user comments are shown below.
© Thomson Reuters 2023.
85 Comments
Hiro
To be fair, those so call peace talks was never gonna go anywhere anyway. Even if they hadn't attack Ukraine. Is not like they are gonna give us back the islands. So nothing was lost when they withdrew from the talks. And let's not forget they have been moving troops there constantly every year for military drills. So it's not like they ever made any effort for working toward peace anyway.
TokyoLiving
It's pathetic, Japan makes the lap dog of the US instead of improving relations with its RUSSIAN NEIGHBOR and being able to reach an agreement with the northern territories, so it will never get anything back..
Japan can suffer a lot if it does not act intelligently and have good relations with its neighbors, being a friend of the United States will always be a bad business..
Garthgoyle
But being friends with war criminals and dictators is good business?
Yubaru
Whomever put up that sign needs to get their money back!
"Traditionally a Japanese territory?" There are plenty of traditions that get tossed by the wayside over time.
Japan is the rightful owner of those islands, taken by Russia prior to the end of WWII and never returned.
Michael Machida
It's not business as usual and to be fair, if your neighbor is evil, it's best to work with a better partner like America who is on the side of truth. To educate the uneducated, when a country attacks their neighbor, all bets are off. Russia is now isolated caused by putin. How is it that some people think that russia is part of the international community anymore?
Joemusic1980
ReasonandWisdomNippon
Russian garbage as always.
Russians want support for invading and attacking Ukraine otherwise your anti-Russian.
This is the same lying Russian promising Japan our islands back for decades. Decades of meetings and gifts to Russia including a dog to Putin which in the end was all for nothing because the Russian will never give back those islands by choice.
noriahojanen
Hypocrite as Russia has no shame in infringing others' sovereign and territory by supporting "breakaway" regions of the Russian speaking residents such as the Donbass, regardless of locals' will.
Desert Tortoise
Japan should hope Russia looses big in Ukraine and is thus chastised, because if Russia is successful in taking full control of Ukraine Japan might be their next target. After all, they are still technically at war with Japan. Having said that I don't think Russia will be successful taking control of Ukraine, but the pro-Russia cheering section here ought to think carefully about what happens if I am wrong and Russia prevails. An emboldened Vladimir Putin would behave like Tojo or Hitler after their early conquests, become insatiable and want more.
Haaa Nemui
And also supporting the overthrow of the rightful government of China while blaming the overthrowing of the Russian installed government of Ukraine for the war that is happening right now.
indigo
what a joke!!, Japanese killed ainu to stole their land. same in okinawa .
Japanese just want to spark a War as its economy is collapsing....
Russian islands is Russian property. IJO!
OssanAmerica
Russia should be stripped of all lands they've stolen, not just these Japanese islands and Ukraine, but those in Moldova, Georgia. And Finland too. Modern civilized nations have moved forward from the days of empire building. Russia didn't get the memo or they're just not civilized.
The four Southern Kurile islands are illegally occupied by Russia, as recognized by the US, UK and EU. For Japan, the necessity to regain these islands has become far more important than before, since Russia was actually considering invading Japan before they chose Ukraine, and Russia has used these islands for military exercises. The Ukraine invasion began with Russian "military exercises". Japan already has the highest JSDF concentration in Hokkaido, but it may behoove the country to consider US bases there as well. The last was a radar station in Wakkanai that was closed ages ago.
stormcrow
There was a story that Russia demanded Hokkaido from General MacArthur during the occupation, and MacArthur told him to Nao many words that the Russians could go to hell. So Japan is lucky in that regard.
stormcrow
….. told him in so many words
damn correcting app!
Fighto!
100% agree. In time, Russia's leader - whoever replaces shaky little Putin - will have to make compromises and return most, if not all, of these stolen lands. Russia will never be trusted or accepted back into working with the civilised world until they do.
Good point. We know for a fact Russia has historically eyed Hokkaido, so what you say is likely true.
Let it be known that if Fascist Russia attempts to steal even more of Japan, they will be rightfully and efficiently obliterated. Vladivostok would be wiped clean off the map within 30 minutes.
Time to start treating Russians as they are - criminals, terrorists and thieves.
KariHaruka
It's not like the talks with these toddlers were going anywhere, anyway....
Yubaru
People need to get into the 21st century and realize that making comments like this are ludicrous and naïve to say the least.
Peter14
The actual problem stopping peace treaty talks, making them impossible, is Russia's warmongering invasion of Ukraine, a failure to return four occupied Japanese islands and Russia having no understanding of right from wrong.
Like all people and countries that do the wrong thing, they claim they are victims and the other side is actually responsible, forcing them to do what they have done/are doing.
Sorry Russia, but everybody knows the truth and that it is all "your fault"!
Peter14
TokyoLivingToday 07:14 am JST
This statement runs counter to the truth, is a personal opinion that while shared by a small and vocal minority, is thankfully pretty much ignored as "white noise". Japan is an ally of the US and have similar views on many things, but not all things. Russia is currently showing the world why association with, and working with japan's RUSSIAN NEIGHBOR is not in anyone's best interest except for Russia's.
Russia is cruel, criminal to the point of being a terrorist nation, it lies, cheats, is one of the most corrupt nations in the world, and can not be trusted. Reality of that hurts pro Russians but it is fact. Right now, today, Russia is the worst example of nation there is. Others have in the past been bad as well, but for right now, Russia is the poster boy for pure evil and untrustworthy.
James
Totally agree, how far back should we go? Do we want to go back to the age of discovery or earlier?
Might be billions of displaced people if we went back that far though. We should make it a lot easier on our selves and just say since the end of WW2?
James
I do but it might be better to explain what fascism is and the following does so far more elegantly than i can.
Fascists strongly oppose democracy, and believe that the state/country takes priority over your personal interests.
Dave Fair
TokyoLivingToday 07:14 am JST
Just ask Ukraine, and Georgia, two sovereign nations how relations with their RUSSIAN NEIGHBOR has worked out for them!
James
I think that is a slightly different type of fight though they are not trying to kick out whole nations of people and make them nation-less they are fighting for their rights and culture to be recognised and for compensation to be made and sacred lands to be returned.
JoshK
@ReasonandWisdomNippon
I do not support Russia, but you are wrong.
Japan relinquished ownership of these islands via the SF Treaty. Russia offered 2 of them back for a peace treaty with Japan. Japan declined the offer.
You are Japanese, so you view this situation emotionally and make unreasonable statements. Any unbiased observer would state Russia treated Japan more than fairly in this territorial dispute.
James
Of course not Russia only understands the fist and boot.
JoshK
@James
Anti-Russia sentiment is clouding everyone's judgment. The Ukraine war is bad; I get it. But one bad decision in a completely different country does not mean they continually make bad decisions with other countries.
In regards to Japan, Russia has been more than fair and diplomatic. Japan has been unreasonable, otho.
OssanAmerica
Russia(USSR) did not even attend the 1951 San Francisco Treaty, much less sign it.
So why are they still occupying these islands? Japan certaintly did not relinquish them to Russia.
The West considers them Japanese territory under Russian occupation.
Russia does what it does, steals territories by any means possible. As if they don't have enough land.
JoshK
@OssanAmerican
But Japan did. In that Treaty, they gave up their rights to claim that land. As they no longer claim it, it goes to the only country who still claimed it at that time-Russia.
Because Japan did not agree to Russia's offer.
Irrelevant and appeal to authority. The west will support anything that weakens Russia, especially loss of territory.
Don't disagree with you, but in this territorial dispute, Russia is very fair and diplomatic. Negotiations usually require gives-and-takes on both sides. Giving Japan half those islands is as good of a deal as Japan could've gotten, but Japan wanted the whole thing. It's like they don't know what a negotiation is.
Raw Beer
Russia knows that if they returned the islands, they would immediately become US military bases.
Japan will never get those islands as long as it remains a captured country obedient to the US.
Sven Asai
The only way to handle is pragmatism. Look, many hold peace without a treaty and many fight wars with former peace treaties. Don’t use those signed or unsigned papers, use instead your brains.
JoshK
@Awa no Gaijin
It really doesn't matter if Russia attended/signed or not in the case of the Kuril Islands. That is a legal, ratified document that states that Japan will relinquishes their claim of the Kuril Islands. Japanese can go cry and whine like a child, but no reasonable person can blame Russia for this situation. After the treaty was ratified, those territories are unclaimed, meaning any country that claimed it and was unopposed now controlled those lands.
Robroy
No use negotiating territorial disputes with Russia, America or China - since the Russians began to expand our of Eastern Europe across the Ural mountains into Asia in about 1500 they have hardly looked back unless opposed militarily.
By the year 1651 they established a fort on the Amur river -
Albazino is a village in Skovorodinsky District of Amur Oblast, Russia, noted as the site of Albazin, the first Russian settlement on the Amur River. Before the arrival of Russians, Albazino belonged to the Daur people, the Mongolic peoples indigenous to this area. (Wikipedia)
After a siege - by Chinese forces of the Qing dynasty - Albazino was abandoned by the Russians under the Treaty of Nerchinsk in 1689...
By threatening war with the Qing dynasty during the Taiping Rebellion (1850-64) Russia managed to reverse the above setback...
Following the Treaty of Aigun in 1858 the Russians re-established Albazino and established much of the modern border between Russia and China.
Much as the United States conquered the South and West of N. America so, at about the same time and pace, Russia conquered Central and N. Asia.
As George Orwell predicted in 1948 we now have three contending world powers - USA (Oceania), Russia (Eurasia) and China (East Asia).
"War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength."
George Orwell, 1984
JoshK
@Robroy
That's a nice history lesson, but that completely irrelevant to this situation.
Japan signed away their rights to claim the Kuril Islands. Period. End of Story.
James
@JoshK
Yes but the islands in question are not part of the Kuril Islands. period. End of story.
Logg
Japan is backed up by the baddest boy on the block, so nothing to fear.
JoshK
Applicable analogy:
Person #1: I give up my rights to this house called "X". It's unclaimed now.
Person #2: House "X" is unclaimed, so I will claim it. As no one else claims it, it belongs to me via international territorial standards.
70 years later
Person #1: Give me back that house "X". I actually never unclaimed it. You see, when I said "X", I actually meant a different house called "X".
jeancolmar
There is one obvious thing that no one seems to be talking about. If Russia were to return the northern islands to Japan what would stop the U.S. from turning them into Okinawa north? Any treaties notwithstanding.
That I believe is the unsaid Russian fear that surrounds the Russian-held northern islands.
Desert Tortoise
No, they are not. The Ainu derived most of their genetics from the early Hokkaido Jomon population, along with genetic contributions from the Chukotko-Kamchatkan peoples living around the Sea or Okhotsk and the Yamato Japanese. Population genomic data from various Jōmon period samples show that their main ancestry component split from other East Asian people at about 15,000 BCE. Following their migration into the Japanese archipelago, they became largely isolated from outside geneflow. What is interesting however is their genetic similarity to native populations in the Americas.
JoshK
@James
You're quoting the Japanese position, but they are lying.
Dave Fair
Lets just be frank and honest! Russia, and definitely while Putin is still at the helm, will NEVER, let me repeat, NEVER hand over territory to ANYONE unless it is taken from them by military force! This is just a fact. So this discussion is pointless unless Japan is willing to accept a peace treaty without the return of the islands seized by Russia in the Japan Northern Territories, which it won't. But J-Gov knows this already so here we are!
JoshK
@Dave Fair
This is completely untrue.
Putin offered 2 of the islands back for a peace treaty with Japan even after Japan tried to play deceptive map games and claim the islands in dispute were not part of the SF Treaty. Japan is playing dirty and conveniently ignoring statements and records from actual negotiators making it clear the islands in dispute were part of the Treaty.
James
You are misunderstanding prior to WW2 the islands in question were part of Japan. During WW2 Japan took over the Kuril Islands and those were the islands that Japan relinquished. Then Russia jumped in stole the four islands that were Hokkaido's provincial islands or refered to as the Northern territories which consist of the Habomai Islands, Shikotan, Kunashiri (Kunashir) and Etorofu (Iturup). and those are the islands japan wants back not the Kuril Islands.
JoshK
@James
Read the following:
The history pre-Treaty doesn't matter. All that matters is what is written in the most recent Treaty.
Putin offered Habomai and Shikotan for a peace treaty, which is more than fair.
Dave Fair
JoshK
Putin made an offer which he knew would never be accepted by the Japanese, and which the Japanese side clearly rejected. Putin offers cease fires and peace accords with Ukraine but never delivers! If you believe what Putin says then you have not paid attention to anything Putin has ever done!
Robroy
@JoshK
You miss the point - empires sign away their rights to territory in unequal peace treaties dictated by their victorious enemies.
As I explained, above, the way to reverse the terms of the treaty is to go, or threaten to go, another round of military conflict when confident of winning it or actually winning it.
Do not be surprised if one day in the future China redraws it's border with Russia after it becomes strong enough to dictate terms.
The question is - can China succeed in redrawing first its maritime borders with the USA and it's allies? Starting with the successful implementation of the "Nine-Dash-Line", in the S. China Sea, followed by the re-acquisition of Taiwan and the demilitarisation of the Korean peninsula??
This may all take centuries to achieve but China has the longest unbroken civilisation in history and more than 5-year plans.
JoshK
@Dave Fair
This is just speculation. There is no reason to play what ifs and look for motivations, because the actual contents of his offer was more than fair by any unbiased observer.
Did Putin know that Japan would be arrogant enough and demand everything? Maybe. I don't really see why that matters, though. Putin made a fair offer and Japan became emotional and unhinged.
Strangerland
Japan has never had a better opportunity to take back the Kurils than they do now. The people of the world are infatuated with Japan, and hate Russia, it would be an easy win.
JoshK
@Robroy
Considering the terror that Japan unleashed to other countries during WW2, they should be thankful that they only lost a few islands. History does not take kindly to losers of wars, and Japan's "punishment" was pretty light.
Should we give back Germany's lost territories pre-WW1?
Fredrik
Let's at least keep the facts correct, we are talking about the Southern Kurils.
Dave Fair
JoshKToday 02:04 pm JST
Please check out this video as it explains in great detail the history and intricacies of this topic and what are Russia's motives. It is as fair as I have seen on the topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfrxVuJdFc4
JoshK
@Dave Fair
I have seen that video and am well-versed on this issue.
All I've done so far was cite the SF Treaty as well as statements from the signors and negotiators of that Treaty on what the "Kuril Islands" meant in that Treaty.
I've also stated what Putin has offered Japan for a peace treaty.
The only opinion I gave was that, as an unbiased observer, Russia is being more than fair and diplomatic while Japan is playing dirty with map games and negotiating with bad faith. That is the conclusion that any intelligent, reasonable person would come to.
SaikoPhysco
The only way to negotiate with Russia is with a strong capable army before you.
Robroy
By the way, in case you think what I posted above is also "completely irrelevant to this situation" -- it is not. The reason why Japan will not be getting the islands in question back from Russia is because we live in a world in which might is right.
And, gone are the days when you could buy territory as the United States did when it acquired Louisiana from Napoleon I or Alaska from Alexander II. These days such tracts of land are priceless and strategic islands are not for sale to any potential adversary.
JoshK
@Robroy
I'm not really seeing your point. Countries and empires lose territory all the time. The Roman Empire, Mongol Empire, European colonization, Germany post-WW1, California and Texas, etc. Why should Japan's loss be viewed differently? If you're advocating for a return of all Kuril islands, then should Germany reclaim Poland, Austria, Czechoslovakia and parts of eastern France?
Dave Fair
JoshKToday 02:45 pm JST
Please explain who lived on the islands of Habomai, Shikotan, Kunashiri and Etorofu before they were seized by Russia in 1945. When did Russian citizens populate these islands and why are there no Japanese citizens living on these islands today? Were these islands ever forcefully seized by the Japanese from Russia or any other nation and did Japan have any treaty with any other nation prior to 1945?
Robroy
@Robroy
I'm not really seeing your point. Countries and empires lose territory all the time. The Roman Empire, Mongol Empire, European colonization, Germany post-WW1, California and Texas, etc. Why should Japan's loss be viewed differently? If you're advocating for a return of all Kuril islands, then should Germany reclaim Poland, Austria, Czechoslovakia and parts of eastern France?
@JoshK
No, no, no, none of the above.
My point is nothing any good is going to happen by negotiation
Andy
The Kuril Islands are Russian territory as is Taiwan, Chinese. Move on folks.
JoshK
@Dave Fair
I understand the argument you're trying to make, but it's really a moot point if territories are assigned strictly by historical residence. Texas and California would be part of Mexico again.
@Robroy
Why not? If Japan accepted Putin's offer, war is officially over. Lowers tension in the region. Isn't Japan always harping on about peace and no war? Or was that all just talk?
Dave Fair
JoshKToday 02:24 pm JST
If you are well versed on the issue have you forgotten that Russia was not a signatory nor did it ratify The Treaty of San Francisco and reasons for it were that the treaty, according to the Soviet delegation led by the Soviet Deputy Foreign Minister Andrei Gromyko, did not recognize the Soviet Union's sovereignty over South Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands.
Robroy
... look what happened in Afghanistan after negotiations between the Taliban and the US. Nobody negotiates honestly. Actions are what matter.
Your points JoshK are all debating ones fit only for a legal argument that attempts to exonerate moderm Russia
Desert Tortoise
Japan does not possess the military capability to what you say. Japan has a grand total of three amphibious assault ships, each of which can carry a maximum of 300 soldiers plus light vehicles and a few helicopters. The Russians have 4500-5500 troops on the Kuriles, along with air defense and anti ship missiles and well dug in positions. 900 troops attacking 4500 dug in troops on their home turf. Japan doesn't have the capability to mount and logistically support contested invasion. Their amphibious capability, such as it is, is designed to quickly reinforce a Japanese possession before it is taken. That's about all it can do.
JoshK
@Dave Fair
Yes, I am aware Russia didn't sign it, but the treaty was still ratified nonetheless. Japan cannot claim the Kuril Islands.
JoshK
@Robroy
There are plenty of things I criticize Russia on. I am not trying to exonerate them, but if there are these islands that the previous owners renounce, how is Russia in the wrong for claiming unclaimed territory?
The pro-Japan side is making a bunch of mental gymnastics on this issue, because the Japanese side is nigh indefensible. What you're saying is that treaties don't matter anymore, and your defense is that a group of uncivilized barbarians didn't keep their word?
Desert Tortoise
The original inhabitants of the Kuriles and Hokkaido were Ainu. The first Russo-Japanese agreement to deal with the status of Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands was the 1855 Treaty of Shimoda, which first established official relations between the Russian Empire and Tokugawa Japan. Article 2 of the Treaty of Shimoda, which provided for an agreement on borders, states "Henceforth the borders between Russia and Japan will pass between the islands Iturup (Etorofu) and Urup (Uruppu). The whole island of Iturup belongs to Japan and the whole island Urup and the other Kuril Islands to the north constitute possessions of Russia". The islands of Kunashiri, Shikotan and the Habomai Islands, that all lie to the south of Iturup, are not explicitly mentioned in the treaty and were understood at the time to be a non-disputed part of Japan. The treaty also specified that the island of Sakhalin/Karafuto was not to be partitioned but was to remain under a joint Russo-Japanese condominium.
In the 1875 Treaty of Saint Petersburg, Russia and Japan agreed that Japan would give up all rights to Sakhalin in exchange for Russia giving up all rights to the Kuril Islands in favor of Japan. However, a controversy remains as to what constitutes the Kuril islands, due to translation discrepancies of the French official text of that treaty.[
After losing the Russo-Japanese War the 1905 Treaty of Portsmouth gave the southern half of Sakhalin Island to Japan.
Although Japan occupied parts of Russia's Far East during the Russian Civil War following the October Revolution, Japan did not formally annex any of these territories and they were depopulated by Japan by the mid-1920s.
Japan was a main ally of Nazi Germany, which the USSR initially had an understanding with, but found itself at war with from June 22, 1941. However, after the Battles of Khalkhin Gol ended the Japanese–Soviet Border War in 1939 and before the USSR declared war on Japan on August 8, 1945, there was practically no hostile activity between the USSR and the Empire of Japan. Between 1939 and 1945, millions of Soviet and Japanese soldiers were facing each other along the Manchurian border. The Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact was signed in Moscow on April 13, 1941, and became effective on April 25, but was renounced by the Soviet Union on April 5, 1945. On May 8 Nazi Germany surrendered to the Western allies, on May 8 to the USSR, which ended the war in Europe and started the secret three-month countdown for the Russians to start hostilities against Japan, as per the Yalta Agreement. On August 9, 1945, just after midnight in Manchuria, the Soviets invaded Manchuria and the Soviet Union declared war on Japan, beginning the Soviet–Japanese War. The Soviet Union invaded South Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands in the subsequent days.
The Invasion of the Kuril Islands took place between August 18 and September 3 (Japan had announced its surrender August 15, and formally signed it September 2). The Japanese inhabitants of the Kurils were expelled two years later. The United States had helped the preparation of the Soviet invasion through Project Hula, transferring amphibious assault vessels and landing craft to the Soviet Union, which at the time had no such craft in its navy.
Dave Fair
JoshKToday 03:32 pm JST
But the Treaty of San Francisco denied the Soviet Union's sovereignty over South Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands, so.......
AviBajaj
Well very soon Japan will get those Islands back bt Sadly only SaintPooptinberg will b left of Russia due to pooptins war but for better functioning of the world we need two super powers bt Russia proved to a paper tiger only now balanced is needed