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Japan, U.S. begin military exercise as concern about China growsBy Tim Kelly ON BOARD JS KAGA
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China can kiss the Senkakus off goodbye.
If communist China think they are a chance of stealing the Senkakus, they are deluded. There is zero chance the USA and a rising Japan will allow them anywhere near this inalienable Japanese land.
No this is game-changing news and welcome to peace-loving nations. The sight of the Kaga and Reagan in the area, fighter jets fully loaded on deck, side by side, will send shivers down Commie spines! Back off, PRC, and sort out your crumbling economy.
If China had pursued real peaceful means it never would have 1. built man made militarized islands under the pretext of lies publicly stating "peaceful and data gathering research purposes" 2. constantly encroaching and blindly claiming territory that is not there's using the guise of mass numbers of fishing boats while reaping in stores of fish from waters and economic zones they don't abide by while neighboring countries do 3. continue to blatantly send ships and oil rigs that extend underwater lines into Japan's known waters under the pretense of research yet sucking the oil blindly dry and on an on. None of the above would have happened. I won't even get into the deal breaks and agreed upon commitments concerning Hong Kong. One cannot blame either the US nor Japan. About time is all I can say.
Of course, since China fire-bombed and nuked Japanese cities during WW2, it's only natural that the Japanese should hate China.
Yes, and at the same time communist Vietnam and Islamic Indonesia are on top of priority on the state visit list. Trick someone else... lol
More fisting and yet more pro-alliance propaganda, not really what you want to see first thing in the morning.
All it takes the passing of a single generation who experienced first hand the horrors of war for the families with the wealth and power to influence to seek opportunities to further enrich themselves by conjuring the boogy-man in any guise to further them ambitions and label it as protecting their shores. They nor their kin ever go no the danger but conscript the population to do their bidding as cannon fodder. When will people wake up and a develop a better system of governance that prevents the greed of the political elite that now run the world like the despotic Kings of old?
If only that were true. Chinese coast guard ships regularly sail around and between those islands and they will continue to do so. Japan needs to put military bases on them, (as China has done in the South China sea). It is very much easier to steal an empty island than one maned by JSDF troops with defensive missile batteries as China knows.
"Of course, since China fire-bombed and nuked Japanese cities during WW2, it's only natural that the Japanese should hate China."
China has been trying to expand its territorial claims since Ancient China. The Han were never truly defeated but instead changed tactics, today they are known as the CCP.
Thinks which happened more then 70 years ago are irrelevant for today. The world has changed and China demonstrated in last 9 months that it is real threat for the whole planet.
Why would Japan want wars with neighbors ? What could Japan gain from wars with neighbors ? What if Japan lose the wars ? China isn't a small country, at least 15 times stronger than Japan. If Chinese don't like what Japan does to them, Japan will be in big big troubles. Chinese have very long memory of history, I hope Suga knows that.
Good...this needs to happen more often.
Cogito Ergo Sum
Gen. Yamazaki is being quite modest, I'd think. If a war broke out here in these confined corner of NE Asia, it'll be like a close-quarter combat ....in a furnace with multiple high-octane players. Just imagine.. China, Russia, S. Korea, N. Korea , Taiwan, The Quad e.t.c ... And, just where exactly will the ground zero of the theater of war be? Let's not forget the admonitions of the greatest military strategist of yore..Sun Tzu -a Chinese- about such a situation.
Just who is saying Japan wants war with anyone let alone neighbors? Nobody is.
Both sides would lose lives, resources and money. But staving off defeat would mean Japan maintains its freedom.
Just fighting a war you lose too much. But it depends who you lose to.
Japan does not stand alone. If China makes "big big troubles" for Japan, you can be sure that China will face BIG BIG TROUBLES of its own for doing so.
Some few people always view Japan as wanting war but it is a bigger neighbor that craves war, that wants to prove itself powerful to the world and is itching to find a weak target to dominate. Dont look to Japan as you will get your fingers burnt by US, Japan and other friendly nations. China should look for peace and not for dominance.
True power need not announce itself, it is silent, it is contained and it is obvious.
How many Japanese people have been arrested based on bogus charges of spying in China as a way to pressure Japan over something that the Chinese were caught doing which was clearly illegal?
Stealing corporate secrets.
Forcing any company doing business in China to have the Japanese company transfer the skills and knowledge to the Chinese company.
Unfair govt supports for Chinese companies so they can drive non-Chinese companies out of business.
Continuous internet attacks against Japanese company and govt computers.
Crossing into and otherwise using the Japanese economic zone without permission.
CCP-China has installed a dictator for life with Xi. That is dangerous to all the neighbors - strike that - to all the world.
How is China on human rights? If they do that to their own people, what will they do to others?
China needs to be thrown out of the WTO and provided measured access as they address systematic problems with their world-wide trade engagements. Human rights needs to be at the top of that list.
It is the US that bombed, destroyed, invaded and conquered Japan, and militarily occupies the country to this day, not China.
Yep, The Evil China started the most wars since WWII. Or not.
Hello Kitty 321
I take it that this is an example of "Japan being opposed to any actions that escalate tensions in the South China Sea" that Suga was talking about.
china and Japan shall co-operate with each other, rather than promoting hatred among the region. It is hoped that the conflict can be settled through negotiation and keep american out of the region. After all, the mastermind behind all these conflict is american for their own interest. china or japan welfare is never under their consideration
China wants war, talks war, bullies its neighbours , its not Japan doing it is it , Japan is known in the last 70 years as a very peaceful nation, its people are mostly peaceful they are looking to defend themselves against an every increasing threat of the obnoxious neighbour .
So talking that Japan is making war is absolute rubbish.
Its shocking to see here voices that Japan should "cooperate" with China just because they are both Asian nations. That's exactly Chinese nationalism. China is communist dictatorship and the whole world should stop to deal with them immediately not only Japan. Communist are capable of everything they just have not had a chance yet....
Hello Kitty 321
The people here seem to choose to forget that China built the bases in the South China sea and began to rearm in earnest in response to Obama's 'Pivot to Asia', which Beijing saw as the United States having hostile intentions toward China and trying to contain it militarily.
in addition to theFu's quite exhaustive list, lets add:
kicks foreign journalists out of china (no Aust journalists at all now) and completely monitors the movement of all foreigners (as well as its own citizens) within its own borders, while complaining that chinese journalists abroad are being censored or restricted in their freedoms
paints the US and the like as evil capitalist pigs that are out to harm china, while the richest in the CCP buy up expensive property and take up spots in the best educational institutions in the US and abroadblatantly copies intellectual property and steals technology from foreign companies investing or operating in china, and then calls them "anti-chinese" when those companies call them out on it.
One tomahawk Or aegis missile test costs about $100m. One in six Osaka children have not enough food.
China is not our enemy.
yes, absolutely agreed with goodlucktoyou. China is never Japan enemy in this 21st century. The one who benefit most from the conflicts, the arms sales, crazy protection fees, shall be our enemy. The same tactic already be applied to euro zone, now the same is happening in Asia. We all know who is the trouble makers here
You missed his point. He was saying that it was the US and not China.
David Michael Lockard
The CCP would love to gobble up Japan, Australia, India, Taiwan and the Korean peninsula.
Can't you feel it?
I love the photo here. I'd like a tour of the Reagan and the JS Kaga.
When will people wake up and a develop a better system of governance that prevents the greed of the political elite that now run the world like the despotic Kings of old?
Sigh. Such naive thinking. How are democratic nations somehow supposed to change the CCP and what the people of China are taught in school? It is China making the threats to take other nation's land. Japan and the US, which is responsible for the defense of Japan, are reacting to threats to Japanese territory made by the leaders of China. Or would you prefer Japan and the US do nothing, cede Japanese territory to China and allow Japan to become a vassal to China? Martin Luther King once said "If a man hasn’t found something he will die for, he isn’t fit to live." Are you a coward willing to be subjugated by a foreign dictatorship stripped of your rights and the ability to use the internet freely for example, or someone willing to take the risks and yes maybe even die to protect your way of life from encroachment by a foreign dictatorship?
tortoise, i wont say you are naive, but i will say you are narrow-minded and look the things in your own way. Chinese hate Japan and China attack Japan is two totally different story. First question, why on earth China want to attack and conquer Japan ? let me tell you, they NEVER think of it, even in WWII they never ever think of it. China know more than anyone on earth what is the consequences of the attack. Yes maybe they want the Senkaku island, but that's geopolitical issues that dragged for decades. China have territory disputes with almost every nations in South East Asian. You know how many people in China still live below poverty line there? They can't afford to have another unnecessary war. Their first priority is Taiwan, and even for Taiwan, they are thinking and thinking for decades without any solid military actions, mind you Japan is far far more stronger in military force than Taiwan. Under the circumstances what prompt you to think that China want to attack almost every nations in the world? who create this ideas and want conflict in this region? who can benefit most from the chaos condition and divided nations in Asia zone? the answer is crystal clear. Secondly, for Chinese hate Japan, i suggest you to mix with more chinese, rather than one family. I have many chinese friends here and some of them even want to migrate to Japan.
Given the opportunity and means, which they are rapidly developing in terms of aircraft carriers, advanced surface warships and large heavy lift amphibious assault ships, China would most definitely seek to take the Ryukyus while flattening cities in mainland Japan. China considered the former Ryukyu Kingdom a Chinese vassal state and believe Okinawa is illegally occupied by Japan. In the Chinese press Okinawa has been called Japanese occupied Chinese territory. About the only thing that will prevent them from doing this in the end will be a clear willingness on the part of the US to shed blood and treasure to defend the Japanese. If you don't think China would take Okinawa and the other Japanese island possessions given the chance you are in my opinion naive.
Actions speak louder than words.
Many times China switches between "we only want peace" to "we dont like what you said you will be punished".
Building military bases in the south China sea when they promised not to militarize them.
Initiating trade sanctions against a country that called for an investigation into the beginnings of Covid.
Using fleets of militia fishing vessels to muscle others out of their own EEZ to steal resources.
Claiming Taiwan and threatening military force.
Border disputes with India that have cost lives this year.
Disputes over territory with Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam, Philippines, Singapore, Brunei, Nepal, Bhutan, Laos, Mongolia, Myanmar, India, South Korea, North Korea, Japan, Taiwan and Tibet.
Expansion of its military reach with new military bases in other nations, Expansion of its military forces (it now has more ships in its navy than the US) which continues yearly.
For a nation under no military threat that claims to want peace its actions are contra indicative and show a clear path to future conflict with any number of countries. China seeks to become the most powerful nation in the world and have all nations at its feet. This can only end one way and it is not a good way.
a clear willingness on the part of the US to shed blood and treasure to defend the Japanese
thank you but US are not an invited guest in this region. Stop playing hero or savior please, because they are not even invited to this region. Last i checked under the name of liberating people of Iraq and Afghanistan, they are still suffering even until now. SO, please let the Asian deal with their own business and stop the savior angel story, nobody will trust in this kind of fairy tales anymore
Chinese press Okinawa has been called Japanese occupied Chinese territory
i dont know where you get this kind of info, but it is NOT TRUE. Nobody in China have any interest in Okinawa...it is super self-made imagination. Amazing but not true. I suggest you to read more history and get the real info.
That would suit China as it is by far the dominant force in Asia. Not having America and its allies to offset China in its territorial expansion would make life easier for China to the detriment of all others in Asia.
Japan can ask America to leave at any time but does not as it is under US protection. If left alone it would need to increase defense spending to more than what China spends, perhaps from 1% of GDP to 4-5% of GDP and it would be starting from a position well behind China. The alternative is to lose territory to China and be China's lap dog.
I think you will find that many in the region welcome the US presence and would not want it to disengage. China is the only one that really wants the US gone, and that is so that it can dominate and get its way claiming all the regions resources for itself. You will find many nations in the region do not want China to dominate.
For a nation under no military threat that claims to want peace its actions are contra indicative and show a clear path to future conflict with any number of countries.
what's wrong with China expanding its own military force? America is the strongest nation in the world with nobody even dream of attacking them, basically zero military threat, but their yearly military expense budget is top of the world, so it is not a logical incompatibility ?
military base in South China Sea...yes it is their bad for breaking their promise
trade sanctions against country called for Covid investigation...so far only Australia get partial sanctions, but not other countries. i believe the story is far more complex behind the scene. They learn this kind of sanction strategy from their guru - America
military fishing vessel to steal resources...what resources? again it is NOT TRUE
claiming Taiwan...this is decades old story, and even America recognize One China policy, mind you
border disputes with other nations...which country dont have border disputes? name it. but did China take the land by military force? not even once. Dont forget about Crimea, or maybe Alaska
having more ships than US...so it is an unforgivable sin for having more ships than US? China have more ships or submarines or tanks or whatever, i can assure you they never travel thousand miles away from their homeland and carry out the so called "military exercise"
Now, tell me again China want to conquer almost every nations in the world
Mark, you have no clue about communist mentality. The problem is Chinese communist have unlimited absolute power in China, it is simply in their DNA. They think they can have the same power over the whole world. Look at Australia, Australia just asked for independent investigation where in Wuhan the virus emerged, which is in my opinion reasonable request, and China started completely to punish Australia with unprecedented counter measures. Communist is evil and it is our human being responsibility to fight against it
dear Peter, let me clarify i am not communist and i dont like the way communist behave too. Anyway i strongly believe there shall be a peace plan between Japan and China. Both countries already suffer long enough from the proxy war by other strong nations. i believe with the new generation and new educated chinese, a negotiation is the best way to get out from the mess.
America has been attacked and has enemies. Remember 9/11? Russia wants to expand its influence through Europe and is a potential enemy. China has no need to build its military further unless it wants to dominate and be the strongest nation. So it gears up to challenge for "top dog" spot. That would be bad for everyone.
Their bad? Their lies to deceive nations until they made it militarized. They say what they need to get to their goals and their goal is world dominance.
Why sanction it at all? China does not want independent investigation that it can not control, because it cant control the information or outcome. Punish a country for angering China, even though it was a reasonable request. China is a monster in sheep's clothing.
Militia is a civilian armed vessel obeying orders from the Chinese CCP. I did not say Military vessel. And these fleets have been documented around the world. Chasing Philippines fishing boats from their traditional fishing grounds inside the Philippine EEZ. Fact! Passing through Chilean waters on the way to someone elses fishing grounds. Fact!
All nations want the money they get from trade with China. They give "lip service" to the one China policy to appease CCP. But all civilized nations understand that Taiwan is independent and democratic with its own leadership, taxes, military and diplomatic agenda. It is not China it is Taiwan.
Countries without border disputes. New Zealand has no border or territorial disputes with any nation, or state.
China took Tibet by force and has threatened to use force on Taiwan and in other disputes.
They have done small scale exercises in African waters and with more bases around the world their exercises will increase well away from Chinese territory. Why have more ships and tanks? why does it need them? is it trying to replace the US as the worlds policeman and have rule of law determined not by consensus of the majority but by the CCP?
China wants to dominate every nation in the world and have it deffer to China before any other nation. China officially is "preparing for war" as Xi has been quoted.
A dominant China is bad for the world and needs to be contained. Not its development, but its territorial expansions and it's desire for military dominance.
If only that had been real. Chinese coast guard warships sail around and between those islands on a daily basis, and they will continue to do so. Japan (as China has done in the South China Sea) needs to place military bases on them. Stealing an empty island is way better than stealing a JSDF soldier with defensive missile batteries, as China knows.
America has been attacked and has enemies. Remember 9/11? Russia wants to expand its influence through Europe and is a potential enemy.
do you know how many countries attack China during WWII ? Remember WWII ? Russia is US potential enemy, then the same goes with China, it has its own potential enemy too, we all know who are them. China build its military with the aim to dominate other country? last i checked China never involved in any war after WWII, never invading any other countries even until now. You need me to tell you how many countries America "liberate" recently? comparing these two, we can tell China develop its military for the sake of defense, and not attack. Fact !
They say what they need to get to their goals and their goal is world dominance.
you are putting words in someone's else mouth, this is bad habit. Last i checked, nobody in China ever said world dominance, even starting from WW I until now. Fact !
Punish a country for angering China, even though it was a reasonable request.
no worries, the sanctions China imposed is nothing compared to what US did to Iran, Mexico, Europes. America is the master in using sanction to silence others, please check and prove me wrong
And these fleets have been documented around the world.
If this fishing fleets is military armed, and entering other nations sovereign sea, just shoot it down and stop grumbling. Maybe you know more than their intelligence agents, and get internal information that they are actually CCP pawns..i dont know, i wont make my own conclusion without any solid prove, else it is all fantasy imagination
All nations want the money they get from trade with China. They give "lip service" to the one China policy to appease CCP
under the circumstances maybe you can suggest to close down the UN, because UN also obey One China policy and banned Taiwan for joining it
China took Tibet by force
Please further study your history lesson to learn how on first place Tibet is under China
is it trying to replace the US as the worlds policeman
ok, nobody can have ships and tanks or anything more than US. US is worlds policeman whether he is doing his jobs correctly or not. Nobody can challenge it ( i smell dictatorship, and who on first place nominate US to become the world's police ? )
China officially is "preparing for war" as Xi has been quoted.
you are picking up words out of whole context. Please read the whole speech and behave like a mature adult
anyway in conclusion, US can have military bases and ships everywhere, China can't do it. i can tell this is your point. I respect your views and i also agree US is doing good in this. Up until now no nations can challenge US position on it. i believe in this world no leaders with logical mind will ever think to challenge it, it is mission impossible. My point is simple, Japan and China want peace, that's all.
Chinese press Okinawa has been called Japanese occupied Chinese territory
I'm afraid it's true. I suggest you read more history and get the real info.
"the group that gathered at Renmin University was focused on a more enticing prize — Japan’s southernmost island chain, which includes the strategic linchpin of Okinawa, home to 1.3 million Japanese citizens, not to mention 27,000 American troops.
The Chinese government itself has not asserted a claim to Okinawa or the other isles in the Ryukyu chain. But the seminar last month, which included state researchers and retired officers from the senior ranks of the People’s Liberation Army, was the latest act in what seems to be a semiofficial campaign in China to question Japanese rule of the islands.
A magazine affiliated with the Chinese Foreign Ministry published a four-page spread on the issue in March. People’s Daily, the Communist Party’s official newspaper, weighed in next with an op-ed by two scholars at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. Two more pieces appeared in Global Times, another state newspaper.
And a week before the seminar, a hawkish Chinese military official argued that the Japanese did not have sovereignty over the Ryukyu Islands because its inhabitants paid tribute to Chinese emperors hundreds of years before they started doing so to Japan.
This news comes on the 70th anniversary of the Chinese People’s volunteer Army entering the DPRK to defeat the US and its allies in the Korean War.
History has a habit of repeating.
OssanAmerica please only said this kind of statement here and no other places, else you will be laughingstock. Anyway it is ok, enjoy and have a nice day. Together we learn history today and it is a pleasure.
The truth of the matter is that war,(and protection), is probably are very profitable for those who manufacture weapons, and for those who lend money to governments to fight wars or to maintain readiness or deterrence postures.
Mr Martin Lohmeyer published an interesting thesis about the Senkaku and other islands claimed by Japan and other countries. And of course, for those who favor Japan no matter what evidence is presented, there is also a counter argument to Lohmeyer’s thesis. Here is the link:
I do not try to favor any point of view but thought about sharing information.
As for the profitability of war, it was Marine Corps Major General Smedley D Butler Who stated in his essay “War is a Racket”, that wars were engineered for the purpose of profit-making of American multinational corporations. Here is the link to the full essay: https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html
In the same thought of line about who profits out of wars, Bill Still touches on it in his You-TUBE documental “The Money Masters”. Here is the link: https://youtu.be/mB-pdPaQNKA
it is interesting that after Okinawa was reverted back to Japan, these islands were included as part of Okinawa. Perhaps to continue the flames of animosity alive in order to keep the war profits going?
The establishments do not want the masses to become enlightened with these kinds of information.
Using America to justify Chinese aggression will not work.
China was involved in the Korean war after the North invaded the South, and it invaded the sovereign independent country of Tibet. Your "checking" is faulty.
As far as I know only Japan attacked China in WWII and America defended China.
Last I checked countries that want to dominate do not announce it to the world. But actions betray their intentions as it is betraying China's intentions now.
And how does that make China's sanctions on Australia correct, right or legitimate? It does not.
So your advise is to sink Chinese armed fishing vessels and start a war with China. That is not a helpful suggestion.
Tibet was independent and China wants to turn back time to when it was part of China. It is doing that in many places but perhaps Mongolia should take back the parts of China it invaded and ruled in the past. It clearly belongs to Mongolia. Perhaps you should study history and present day laws to understand you cant just chose to turn back time and take what may once have been under Chinese rule. Should Italy reclaim most of Europe that it owned at one time? Should England take back all the lands it once ruled? Obviously not.
This happened after WWII and after the cold war struggle for dominance between the USSR and America. So your saying China wants to start a new cold war, though it says different, to challenge the current world order and replace America at the top. It can try but may initiate a war in the process.
Xi has told his military to prepare for war. that you dispute that fact shows you either choose to be uninformed or are simply biased toward China. My arguments have been honest and factual and very adult. Questioning behavior because you lose a discussion is regrettable.
I believe you are right concerning Japan wanting peace.
Regarding China, I believe that the people prefer peace, but the leadership has other ideas and it stems from the century of humiliation when European powers were in China running things. They would like everyone to defer to what they want regarding territorial claims and taking a position of influence among the worlds countries. It already has trade influence but forcing others leave territory that is recognized under international law as their exclusive EEZ is not friendly or peaceful. Threatening Taiwan with military takeover to force a reunification that the people of Taiwan do not want is not peaceful. Setting up military bases in the South China sea is not peaceful. My point is its actions do not match its words in many areas and when it is angry or embarrassed or defied it seeks to punish. No negotiation just threats. Current leadership in China can not be trusted and actively seek dominance to control. So used to it domestically they want it internationally. It is scary. War is scary. The world needs peace and China needs to find ways for peace rather than invest for war.
If China wants to be an international leader it should leave the stick at home and focus on peace. Actions really do speak louder than words and China needs to act peaceful to gain both respect and cooperation. Being big and scary makes others want to arm up and be ready to defend their rights and freedoms. Nobody likes a bully and America has many that do not like it. Does China really want to make more enemies for itself? Worlds policeman is expensive and thankless very often making some love you and some hate you. China should envy America less and just be a peaceful prosperous country that develops for its people and bothers no other nations or peoples. It will make more friends that way.
TARA TAN KITAOKA
CHINA is too busy with economic growth to think about war. Please use your common sense. Please stop wasting time and tax payers money.
The. Ryukyus were divided in between China and Japan in an agreement in principle through the help of US presiden Ulyses S Grant. Japan would get the main island of Okinawa and the Amami islands. China would get get the Sakushima islands south of Okinawa. Japan agreed to it but took no further steps while waiting to gain naval superiority through its modernization plans. And we know how Japan declared war on China and imposed onerous war reparations when China was the victim.
A direct quote by PLA General Luo Yuan published in the CCP mouthpiece, The People's Daily in May of 2013:
"Let's for now not discuss whether the Ryukyus belong to China, they were certainly China's tributary state," Luo said in an interview with China News Service. "I am not saying all former tributary states belong to China, but we can say with certainty that the Ryukyus do not belong to Japan,"
In another People's Daily article two academics from the CCP run Chinese Academy of Social Sciences Li Guoqiang and Zhang Haipeng stated:
"Japan's annexation of the Ryukyu kingdom in 1879 amounted to an invasion, and that the sovereignty issue remained open to question", adding "Hanging in the balance of history, the unresolved problem of the Ryukyus has finally arrived at the time for reconsideration"
That last sentence sound like a direct threat to me. Time to open up your eyes pal. The Dragon is getting hungry and is looking to Japan for a big meal.
China intervened on the side of North Korea during the Korean War, a fact the Chinese are celebrating right now in China as a "great victory" over the US. In addition PRC invaded Vietnam in 1979 trying to force Vietnamese forces out of Cambodia. China failed in its objectives and was outfought by the Vietnamese Army. China initiated subsequent border clashes with Vietnam in June and October 1980, May 1981, April 1983, April 1984, June 1985, and from October 1986 to January 1987. The PLA also shelled Vietnamese forces in Cambodia and trained and supplied Laotian forces to attack the Vietnamese. There was also a small naval battle between PRC and Vietnam in 1988 over Johnson Reef.
Tibet was an independent nation in 1950 when China invaded it and occupied it. I have studied this to death and know the history. China's forced sinicization of the Tibetans is a slow motion genocide. China is doing the same to the Uyghurs and now is starting to do this to Inner Mongolia.
What did you expect? The US ended up controlling them and all of the Ryukyu Islands after WWII. By the time the US was ready to end it's occupation of mainland Japan Mao had defeated Chiang Kai-shek and a communist enemy controlled China. By 1950 the US was at war with North Korea and fighting the PLA and PLAAF there. Did you really expect the US to hand those islands over to China? It's a laughable proposition. The US had to fight one of the bloodiest battles of WWII to capture Okinawa, setting the stage for the eventual invasion of mainland Japan if it came to that. Mao contributed nothing to the allied victory in WWII and was actively engaged in war against the US. PRC was also engaged in more or less daily aerial warfare with Taiwan over the Formosa Strait. In fact the first use of air to air missiles was by Taiwan, shooting down several PLAASF MiGs using US supplied AIM-9Bs. So the US gave the Ryukyus and all the other little islands to Japan. Too bad for China. A US President needs to state this openly and tell the CCP to back off.
Tibet was not under China in the first place. The Chinese will be quick to point out that the Mongols and the Qing are not Han Chinese. So Tibet under the dominion of these two foreign and non Chinese dynasties should not be considered under China but instead an independent country itself with a history of over 800 years.
I can't even begin to imagine why you are shocked. My family suffered grievously under Mao. Momma is fortunate to be alive after the Red Guards ran her out of her teaching job, took the family home in Shanghai and exiled our family to poverty in the countryside. Unlike teachers with older students, her little kids were too young to kill her at the end of the Red Guards required session of criticism. Many of her colleagues died. So it should not surprise you I distrust everything the CCP says and have no respect whatsoever for people from abroad, especially well fed westerners with no experience with despotism, who express any fondness for that miserable regime. They are naive fools who are blind to the daily barbarities the CCP commits against the Chinese people. My family knows first hand how awful the CCP is. You know nothing.
Desert Tortoise full support what you have written.
Well written @Desert Tortoise. Your points are accurate and well made. More eloquent than I sir.
CCP is losing respect and trust in this region and further due only to its actions. It can blame nobody but itself when the truth surfaces and supporters deny it out of shock, shame and disbelief that their messiahs could ever do wrong. They can and they do and the region is awake to it.
These exercises strengthen bonds of comradeship, create friendships between individuals on both sides and smooths cooperation and understanding of each others tactics. Good all around. Keep up to good work.
Really? None of the communists I know are evil. In fact, some of them are the most selfless, giving, decent human beings I've met.
Capitalists, on the other hand :-(
And China is an authoritarian nation. The government is a dictatorship. It's certainly not communist.
They call them selves the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) They are the government so the Chinese government amongst other things is definitely communist. It is run by a dictator in XI and operates as an authoritarian state based on capitalist economic models with controls in place for manipulation by the CCP.
In name only.
Yes it does. And that goes against the main tenets of communism.
Fair enough, a valid criticism. I was angry when I wrote that. My apologies.
They call them selves the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) They are the government so the Chinese government amongst other things is definitely communist.
The CCP itself is run along communist lines with the same values and goals. The CCP is very communist.
So what? North Korea still uses the label ‘Democratic People’s Republic of Korea‘. Are you going to argue they are democratic?
If you listen to the leaders of the CCP nowadays, ‘communism‘ is hardly mentioned. The ambitious elites of China are more interested in becoming billionaires than CCP bureaucrats.
Corrupt authoritarianism is a better description.
It's actually the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. The only part of that which is correct is 'Korea'.
I'm not too sure why people want to push the CCP line that China is communist. The only thing communist about it is that the CCP has subverted that word for their name.
The way to tell if something is communist is as follows:
Read the tenets of CommunsimCheck if the thing follows those tenets
If it does, then it's communist. If it doesn't then it's not.
Now do that for China. And come back and tell us when you've realized that China isn't communist.
Indoctrination into believing that communism automatically means dictatorship?
That's not communism, though.
You're aware that we have our own party here in Japan? That people, y'know, vote for? Willingly and without co-ercion.
To be forced to vote communist, wouldn't be communist. It would be authoritarian, like in China.
So do I.
The party works in a very communist way. It is not democratic it is not multi party it actively eliminates opposition.
No point arguing about it. The world views China as a communist led country and so do I. You can say I am wrong and I can say you are wrong. The world has its own definitions and opinions. Yours is a bit different and that is your right.
This article is about concern over China and its actions and drawing together like minded friendly nations who prefer consensus to being dictated to. The military exercises are a demonstration of cooperation.
The US is not a friendly nation. We've seen what it does to former allies and partners.
And the US threatens nations that stands up to its bullying and hegemony.
Like China, it needs scrutiny.
The world views China as an authoritarian led country and so do I.
None of those are the tenets of communism. So, while you could potentially show that the party is communist with some other argument (though I assure you they're not) the argument you've given in the quote doesn't support the assertion you've made.
That's what the CCP line. They like it much better than the accurate authoritarian oligarchy.
Communism is a clearly defined ideology with clearly defined tenets. It's not a fancy woo-woo word with an interpreted meaning. The world has a definition alright, it's an ideology clearly defined in The Communist Manifesto by Marx and Engles.
Mine is THE definition. There are no others.
Communism like every other leadership style is never black or white. It has been altered by some a little and by some a lot. Your idea that there is only one communism, is limited and in todays definitions incomplete.
China's CCP is organized and run along communist principles. As they have put it in the past it is Communism with Chinese tones.
It is much like cooking. There is the original recipe for apple pie and there are variations on apple pie. All are apple pies, but only one is the original recipe.
Mine is the CORRECT definition of communism. Yours is where it all started. It did not end there.
That might have been a valid argument during the Presidency of Hu Jintao but Xi Jinping has turned the clock back quite a bit. Read his speeches carefully. He is a communist true believer. He knows he has some limits on what he can do after China's opening to the world, but he is not necessarily on board. He promotes state owned industries over private enterprise, forces all CCP members many of whom are major business owners to sit through regular indoctrination sessions, has banned teaching about the Cultural Revolution (that is actually a big deal), is currently purging libraries across China of books he and his party faction consider too western and has even started wearing traditional Zhongshan suits to official functions along with his entourage, mimicking Mao. The visuals are deliberate. He calls himself the "Helmsman" too. Again like Mao. He has conducted a somewhat effective purge of opposing faction leaders from within the CCP under the guise of eliminating corruption (never mind he's worth around $1.5 billion and he didn't earn that through his public salaries) and used this to twist the arms of the members of the Central Committee to sign off on eliminating both term limits for high party posts and also the age limit so he can remain in power indefinitely along with some of his most trusted aids who were about to hit the age limit for holding high positions within the government. His latest speeches emphasize China turning inward and focusing on self sufficiency rather than trade. Juche Xi style?
You're conflating two things here:
Communism - an ideology with clearly defined tenetsAuthoritarian countries that call themselves communist - but in not following the tenets of communism, aren't actually communist.
I'd argue there's never been a true communist nation. Only nations that have claimed to be communist, but have not followed the tenets of communism, and therefore were never communist in the first place.
This is as ridiculous as the idea of "alternate facts". There aren't alternate facts, there are only facts. Just as there is only one definition of communism. And there is no "my definition" of communism, there is "communism", which is clearly defined.
The CCP has never followed the tenets of communism. But the term sounds much better than the Chinese Authoritarian Oligarchy Party, which would be more accurate. So they push the propaganda that they are communist.
Why do you want to feed into that propaganda?
They call it Socialism with Chinese Characteristics. They teach that it is Maxism-Leninism adapted to Chinese circumstances and specific time periods. In the party's official narrative, socialism with Chinese characteristics is Marxism–Leninism adapted to Chinese conditions and a product of scientific socialism. The theory stipulated that China was in the primary stage of socialism due to its relatively low level of material wealth and needed to engage in economic growth before it pursued a more egalitarian form of socialism, which in turn would lead to a communist society described in Marxist orthodoxy. Ergo in the minds of the CCP they are indeed communists in the true sense pursuing a path to achieving the ultimate communist society.
Ok so you are a purist unable to see anything else. Others can and your idea of a single pure communism does not get accepted by the mainstream. Call the CCP whatever you like. I and most others will continue to call them Communist, as that is what they are.
We also call Cuba a Communist nation. It is not pure so you will call them something else also. You make your own labels and that is commendably inventive.
@Desert Tortoise, once again well said.
You're trying to criticize me for not accepting some made up alternate definition of an existing ideology. Talk about attempted gaslighting. You're the one who is making up a definition and trying to claim it holds validity in comparison to the clearly defined actual definition.
Um, the mainstream IS the accepted definition of communism. Your weird attempt at justifying your being incorrect on the topic is not the mainstream.
Ok so you are a purist unable to see anything else.
Not at all a criticism. Calling what I see.
That is exactly what I have been saying.
RIMPAC GAMES ?
Mao certainly did, but it didn't turn out so well for China. People forget how brutal Mao was and how rigidly communist orthodoxy was enforced under his rule. That orthodoxy and rigidness are returning under Xi Jinping.
No, he didn’t. Mao was a bright man but wasn’t particularly well-read in communism nor did he particularly care about it. He was a believer in power and control.
The only possible saving grace of this awful man was how many Chinese were lifted out of abject poverty but that was more motivated by stopping civil unrest than any higher principle.
More attempted gaslighting. I’m a person who uses words according to their accepted meaning and don’t just make up my own meanings according to what I think the words should mean. That’s not a purist, it’s an English speaker.
No it’s not. You’ve made up some meaning of communism and tried to claim its mainstream. The actual meaning of communism is what the mainstream meaning of communism is.
Mao claimed communism like so many others. But he also didn’t follow the tenets of communism.
Well, that is your opinion but the Chinese disagree. What part of Marxist-Leninist doctrine did Mao miss pray tell?
Once again we have another confused poster who thinks communism is an opinion, rather than a clearly defined ideology which has tenets that can be used to determine whether a country is actually communist or not.
I'll let other people summarize it better than myself:
Those are just starters: https://www.quora.com/Why-was-PRC-actually-never-Communist-under-Mao
Disagree all you like. As far as the world is concerned the Chinese Communist Party is a communist government. No amount if disagreement will change that. Point to any book or person you like it will not change the fact. The point that you disagree and why has been noted for posterity here in the annuls of JP.
No one person, not even lenin or marx, get to determine if a party lives up to the lofty ideals of pure Communism. It has been conceded that CCP lacks purity but it also lacks good sense. Marxism, Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism and Strangerlandism. All based on Communism and any poster that mistakenly believes that there is only the pure form of Communism is clearly mistaken. It is not just my opinion but clearly it is a fact.
Read the info in the link and understand how Communism is viewed in the wider world and that no single poster gets to narrow the definition of Communist to its purest form and dismiss the rest.
Nevertheless, it's not. Are you also of the opinion that North Korea (the Democratic People's Republic of Korea) is democratic, a republic, and of the people? By your logic, as far a the world is concerned, it is. Of course, anyone that took a moment to look could compare their operations to democracy, and to republics of the people, and realize that NK is none of those things.
Same with the CCP.
No amount if disagreement will change that.
On the contrary, we all do. Communism is a clearly defined ideology. We are all free to evaluate whether a country is operating under that ideology. The country itself gets to determine whether or not they want to follow the tenets of communism, and how closely. But if they don't follow said tenets, they aren't communist, anymore than an ostrich that buries it's head in the sand can't be seen by others.
No amount if disagreement will change that.
So do you and other posters apparently. Nevertheless, they don't practice communism in China.
That's like saying my statement that the green is not blue is an opinion. No, it's a matter of fact.
No, it is a matter of opinion. Your opinion. As I said, sincere communists in China think they are on the path of "scientific socialism" as they understand Marxist-Leninist dogma. Whether or not you agree is immaterial. As I said, these arguments are as inane as those over religious dogmas and which denomination of Christianity or Islam is true. Catholics consider protestants to be heretics (at least that's the version I heard, even had a nun tell me I'd go to hell for becoming a methodist ) and Strangerland considers the CCP to be not true communists.
Nope. It's something with a clear definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
Now I've provided a link, you provide me a link that says 'Communism is whatever people want to think it is', and then we can talk about whether it's opinion or not.
And sincere Democratic Republicans in North Korea think they are a being a Democratic People's Republic.
Claiming green is blue does not make green blue.
It's not my consideration, it's a point that can be proven objectively. I even outlined the method earlier in this thread:
Read the tenets of Communsim
Check if the thing follows those tenets
If it does, then it's communist. If it doesn't then it's not.Now do that for China. And come back and tell us when you've realized that China isn't communist.
No need to. Communism has evolved whether some like it or not. It has become more than a single tenet.
It has become more than what it was when first envisaged or written about.
Time and again I have seen you try in vain to tell a poster that China's CCP is not communist and time and again I see posters discuss Chinese leadership and say it is Communist.
You cant defeat the waterfall. Popular consensus will win out every time. China has a single party governed by Communist values and the vast majority of the world sees that and will not be told otherwise. They, like it or not, are modern Communists. You can agree or stay stuck in the past with a pure vision of Communism based one one version (tenets) that you support. You can not win the discussion and you cant change the views held by the majority by sticking to your view.
China is not communist. It is an authoritarian state that applies capitalism to economics.
Capitalism that results in people turning a blind eye to land grabs from farmers, the situation in Hong Kong and Tibet and the imprisonment of the Uighurs.
Because the flow of capital means more than people's lives.
Dress it up all you want to, but the enemy here is capitalism and authoritarianism.
China is not the run on Communist ideal. Dont confuse that with the CCP which IS run by Communist ideals.
The rulers of China are Communist even if the country itself is run by a different value set.
No it hasn't. You keep trying to say this, yet you have not provided a single reference of anyone or anything credible that shows your opinion to be anything other than your opinion.
I've shown you THE definition of communism. Now you show me somewhere that this supposed mutated definition that you made up exists.
Exactly. Posters keep making the same mistake, and I keep pointing out how they are incorrect.
China is not Communist.
This is as silly an attempt at logic as I've seen.
The CCP runs China. They set the rules. The above quote says they are Communist, they just don't practice communism.