politics

Japan complains over S Korean marine survey in disputed waters

36 Comments
By YURI KAGEYAMA

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36 Comments
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As OssanAmerica and virusrex mentioned, is this only kicking the can down the road until uselessly raising the matter at the next discussion-point in time which will end up in stalemate (yet) again. So, ultimately raising the argument for raising the argument's sake without any hope of coming to any agreement, hence ultimately an exercise in pointlessness any which way you look at it...Moving on would be the only rational thing to do.

Our grand-grand-grand-grand, etc children will still see news about this...(sigh)

11 ( +13 / -2 )

I thought we were entering a new small window of opportunity for Japan and South Korea to stop hating each other?

10 ( +10 / -0 )

EastmanToday  10:51 am JST

why these island disputes with ROK,China and Russia remains unsolved?

any ideas anyone?

Liancourt Rocks. Illegally occupied by ROK. Taken unilaterally by Syngman Rhee in 1952, U.S. recommended tthat Japan take ROK to ICJ to settle this issue. Japan has requested ICJ settlement 3 times and ROK has refused. ROK's behavior is why it remains unresolved.

Senkaku Islands. Handed back by US to Japan as part of Okinawa Prefecture. Taiwans original claim for fishing rights usurped by China for resources and strategic purposes in 1971. China refuses to bring a claim at ICJ against Japan because China does not recognize International rulings as regards Chinese sovereignty. Islands protected by Article 5 of US-JPN Mutual Defese Treaty. China's refusal to bring a claim at the ICJ is why it remains unresolved.

Southern Kuriles- 4 islands. Illegally occupied by Russia. Recognized as Japanese territory by US, UK and EU under Russian occupation. Taken by USSR after Japan declared surrender in WWII. In violation of CAiro and Potsdam Declarations which prohibited Allied powers from taking territory from Japan that was not taken by "Greed or Force" as these islands were negotiated with Russia in 1855. USSR and US definiton of "Kuriles" differed, and USSR interpreted Japan's giving up rights to "Kuriles" at 1951 San Francisco Peace Treaty included the entire chain down to the 4 islands off Hokkaido. No countries other than Russia recognize Russian claims to these islands because the USSR was not even a signatory to the 1951 San Francisco Treaty. This dispute remains unresolved because Japan has continued an unsuccessful approach of coupling the return of these islands with a signing of a formal Peace Treaty with Russia, which has not existed since WWII ended.

Google is your friend. BTW, Disputes can be "resolved". Mysteries can be "unsolved".

10 ( +14 / -4 )

Japan simply needs to be doing surveys of their own in the same waters. Maybe then South Korea will, after complaining, agree to settle the dispute at the ICJ.

9 ( +16 / -7 )

Japan has a territorial dispute with South Korea over the Liancourt Rocks. It is legally encumbant on a claimant to put on record such complaints. Failure to do so over time invokes the defense argument of laches, that Japan has "accepted" South Korea's position by virtue of having failed to have made and recorded any complaints. Too bad this will go over most heads here.

8 ( +14 / -6 )

the only 2 beacons of democracy in the Far East, highly educated population, top 5 IQ nations fighting over a pair of rocks...while surrounded by the most aggressive power greedy communist countries on earth, totally makes sense

8 ( +12 / -4 )

Actually, Japan wasn't required to give up the lioncourt islands and was given permission of administration over them by the US. The reason why it hasn't been solved is because Korea doesn't want to go to court for them.

7 ( +10 / -3 )

Samit BasuToday  11:29 am JST

A relevant news.

https://www.reuters.com/world/having-shipped-artillery-shells-ukraine-canada-asks-skorea-more-2022-05-30/

Having shipped artillery shells to Ukraine, Canada asks S.Korea for more

*South Korean broadcaster SBS, citing an unnamed high-ranking South Korean defence ministry official, said that the deal could involve up to 100,000 shells from South Korea's reserves, likely sold below market value.*

"We are actively pursuing a plan to provide 100,000 rounds to Canada," the official told SBS.

Korea reportedly has an artillery shell stockpile of 6 million rounds, so giving away 100,000 rounds to Canada is no big deal, it will be refilled in a couple of months.

Korea also has a ballistic missile stockpile of at least 6,000, the exact number being classified.

> Desert TortoiseToday  12:43 pm JST

Korea also has a ballistic missile stockpile of at least 6,000, the exact number being classified.

Curious where you get your numbers from, especially since there are no reliable unclassified estimates of the number of South Korean ballistic missiles in their inventory. For comparison sake the US has built a total of 3700 MGM-140 ATACMS short range ballistic missiles and that number includes units built for foreign customers like South Korea who has over 200 of them. As for larger and longer ranged IRBMs, the US built 276 Pershing II ( 1700 km range ) and 754 of its predecessor the Pershing I ( 700 km range ). The idea that South Korea has somehow built 6000 missiles in this class seems greatly exaggerated.

You two lost?

5 ( +8 / -3 )

Samit BasuToday  11:25 am JST

@Eastman

why these island disputes with ROK,China and Russia remains unsolved? any ideas anyone?

This is because Japan refuses to fully honor the terms of surrender, which required Japan to give up all territories acquired through Imperialist expansion, such as the Diaoyu Islands, Liancourt Rocks, and Southern Kurils.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943_Cairo_Declaration#Text

Total nonsense.

ROK/Liancourt Rocks - Have nothing to do with WWII or surrender terms. Unilaterally claimed in 1952.

China/Senkakus - These islands were incorporated in 1895 as Japanese territory as they were found to be terra nullius. They were never taken from any country by greed or war.

Russia/Southern Kuriles - Never taken by "Greed or War" as they became Japanese territory in 1855 by negotiation between Russia and Japan resulting in the Treaty of Shimoda.

5 ( +13 / -8 )

Korea also has a ballistic missile stockpile of at least 6,000, the exact number being classified.

Curious where you get your numbers from, especially since there are no reliable unclassified estimates of the number of South Korean ballistic missiles in their inventory. For comparison sake the US has built a total of 3700 MGM-140 ATACMS short range ballistic missiles and that number includes units built for foreign customers like South Korea who has over 200 of them. As for larger and longer ranged IRBMs, the US built 276 Pershing II ( 1700 km range ) and 754 of its predecessor the Pershing I ( 700 km range ). The idea that South Korea has somehow built 6000 missiles in this class seems greatly exaggerated.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

That was according to a press eye-witness of ROK's periodic war game military drill, which he saw 6,000th ballistic missile being launched at North Korean targets by Day 5 of conflicts. When asked if that was feasible, the replied answer was "Yea, sure".

It depends on what one calls a "ballistic missile". Those two words could encompass artillery rockets with a 20-30 km range like the US M270 shot out of GLMRS or the South Korean equivalent K136. South Korea has built something like 480,000 K136 variants. They are inexpensive and simple non guided missiles.

If you are talking about something larger and more complex like Hyunmoo 2 or 3, then the number is not credible. The US Army's ATACMs replacement is called Precision Strike Missile System. Based on publicly available Army documents those cost $1.5 million each. These are not quite as big or long ranged as a Hyunmoo 3 but rather comparable to Hyunmoo 2B. Even if those hyunmoos only cost $1 million each 6000 missiles at that price would set the South Korean taxpayer back $6 Trillion. The annual ROK GDP is about $1.7 Trillion. Even if the missiles were only half a million each you are looking at a $3 Trillion price tag. It is not a believable number.

A 155 mm artillery shell costs around $1000 each. A nation can buy about 1500 artillery shells for the price of a single ballistic missile. In any event how many one buys is based on considerable mathematical modeling and simulation. Expect to shoot orders of magnitude more artillery shells than missiles. They have different target sets.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Scroll down to page 40 of this pdf and you can see the gross unit cost of a Precision Strike Missile.

https://www.asafm.army.mil/Portals/72/Documents/BudgetMaterial/2022/Base%20Budget/Procurement/MSLS_FY_2022_PB_Missile_Procurement_Army.pdf

2 ( +2 / -0 )

@Hello kitty 321

Japan is probably the only country in the world to have territorial disputes with ALL of its neighbors

The reason you said "probably" is because you obviously don't know whether Japan is the only country to have territorial disputes with "ALL" it's neighbors.

Allow me to clarify that for you-

No Japan isn't the only one !

Hello ! ! !

2 ( +2 / -0 )

There is no real point in complaining except for having it registered and used the next time the bilateral relationship between both countries is discussed. Japan knows this very well while submitting the complaint and SK knows it very well at the time it conducted the survey.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Samit BasuToday  12:17 am JST

This is why they keep saying the ROK Army of 2022 has a greater firepower than the Imperial Japanese Army of 1940.

Who is this "they"? Because that's a really stupid comparison. That's like saying the Imperial Japanese Army in 1940 had more firepower than the Joseon army in 1858.

Besides, shouldn't ROK be more concerned with comparing firepower to DPRK in 2022? LOL

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Anyone has any possible idea to settle this issue other than 1) by force ( i.e through military conflicts) and 2) Japan simply gives all up. ?

The same question should be certainly asked what to be done to solve NK abductees issue.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Chinese characters are mere phonetic representations of what is actually pronounced in the vernacular, having nothing to do with the meanings of characters. And so you cannot guess the meaning of an island’s name on the basis of given Chinese characters. Take of Takeshima has nothing to do with bamboos as some poster says. Take may be the same element as the one repeated in the word takedakesii, meaning "steep" or "rugged".

There is an island called "Akusekito" in the Tokara group that lies south of Kyushu. “Akusekito” is written in Chinese characters as 悪石島, meaning "evil rock island". Based on the Chinese characters, folk etymology has it that there are many rocks dangerously hanging out on the slopes of the island and so named as is. But I have a different explanation. The island must have been under the control of Lord Aku (阿久)and so named after the Aku clan.

The largest island in the Senkakus is called Diaoyudao in China. Judging from the Chinese characters, 釣魚島, one might be inclined to think of it as so named because hermits came to the island and spent days angling for fish.

It was Chen Kwan, a tributary mission head who came to Ryukyu to crown a king, who first documented the name Diaoyudao in his “Emissary’s Record of Ryukyu”, a report he submitted to the emperor

Apparently, he had Ryukyu seamen and traders aboard the same tributary ship explain and describe the topology and geography of the island chain. In the local vernacular, the island was called either Yukun or Iigun meaning “fishing ground”. The waters around the island have been well-known as rich fishing grounds, even to this day.

Chen Kwan must have thought of Diaoyucheng back home when he was given the explanation and description of the island and recorded it as Diaoyudao after the famous namesake.

All in all, there is a lot of room to speculate about the origin and history of an island's name.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The last paragraph in my post above is revised and expanded as follows:

Chen Kwan must have thought of Diaoyucheng back home when he was given the explanation and description of the island's vernacular name by Ryukyu seamen aboard the same tributary ship and so recorded it as Diaoyudao after the famous namesake.

All in all, there is a lot of room to speculate about the origin and history of an island's name. It boils down then that a country cannot lay claim to an island on the basis of its nomenclature alone.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

A Korean Raybolt missile costs $60,000 compared to $200,000 Javelin missile,

The 2022 budget unit cost of a Javelin missile is $107,500. The unit cost of a Raybolt is 100 Million South Korean Won, which is $80,571 USD.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

North Korea can't stop the ROK invasion force reaching Pyongyang in 19th hour and sacking it in a week if the war was to happen.

The problem with that statement is the PLA and PLAAF will intervene long before ROK forces can get that far.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

SK and Japan can’t go to war over this as they both have military protection treaties with the USA. Both should just grow up and stop acting like spoilt babies

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

@OssanJapan

shouldn't ROK be more concerned with comparing firepower to DPRK in 2022? LOL

The ROK's brute firepower is the reason North Korea insists on having nukes as a defensive measure and insisting on demilitarization of the ROK as the condition of denuclearization, because North Korea can't stop the ROK invasion force reaching Pyongyang in 19th hour and sacking it in a week if the war was to happen.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Lots of complaining lately...

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

@kennyG

Anyone has any possible idea to settle this issue other than 1) by force ( i.e through military conflicts) and 2) Japan simply gives all up. ?

There are no other possible solutions than your two suggested options. 1) is a non-starter because Japan will lose with a 100% certainty and may end up losing a lot more territory than at the start of war, ie Tsushima will probably end up being a Korean territory as the Korean war plan has been calling for the occupation of Tsushima since early 2000s. 2) is the most realistic solution but it is politically unacceptable domestically in Japan. So LDP will just have to stop making noise while not officially renouncing its claims.

The same question should be certainly asked what to be done to solve NK abductees issue.

There is no NK abductee issue to resolve. Kim Jung Il gave the full account of all Japanese abductees back in 2004 to Koizumi, based on the expectation that Japan and North Korea would normalize diplomatic relations soon and North Korea would receive tens of billions in compensations, Kim had nothing to hide when he was issuing an apology himself.

Anyone else not in North Korea's official abductee list simply has gone missing in Japan.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

@Desert Tortoise

It depends on what one calls a "ballistic missile".

Anything with range of 150 km or greater. It doesn't count MLRS rockets.

Even if those hyunmoos only cost $1 million each 6000 missiles at that price would set the South Korean taxpayer back $6 Trillion.

$1 million x 6,000 = $6 billion. ROK spends $15 billion a year on weapons acquisition.

Scroll down to page 40 of this pdf and you can see the gross unit cost of a Precision Strike Missile.

US weapons price has no correlations to ROK weapons prices. A Korean Raybolt missile costs $60,000 compared to $200,000 Javelin missile, yet it is no less deadly and destructive; some say it's even more accurate than Javelin, having demonstrated its ability to take out a speeding motorcycle in Yemen, a target that's much smaller and fast moving than a typical armor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GIpD48a4kA

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

OK, I suppose they can complain, but it's not like they set up an Armed Observation Post, like ONE country DID

-5 ( +8 / -13 )

Japan is probably the only country in the world to have territorial disputes with ALL its neighbors.

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

@Desert Tortoise

The idea that South Korea has somehow built 6000 missiles in this class seems greatly exaggerated.

That was according to a press eye-witness of ROK's periodic war game military drill, which he saw 6,000th ballistic missile being launched at North Korean targets by Day 5 of conflicts. When asked if that was feasible, the replied answer was "Yea, sure".

So the ROK does at least have 6,000 ballistic missiles to launch, a crazy number. But then again, the ROK is also sitting on a stockpile of 6 million rounds of artillery shells so giving away 100,000 rounds is no big deal. 100,000 is a number needed to load up all of ROK's howitzers, K10 ammo carriers all at once.

This is why they keep saying the ROK Army of 2022 has a greater firepower than the Imperial Japanese Army of 1940.

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

why these island disputes with ROK,China and Russia remains unsolved?

any ideas anyone?

-7 ( +1 / -8 )

Japan's whining over Dokdo sounds an awful lot like China's whining over the Senkaku Islands. Dokdo is a South Korean possession. Japan has no right to whine about the South Koreans conducting a marine survey inside their own EEZ.

-7 ( +4 / -11 )

We strongly demand this stop immediately

Or else? Your words carry no weight.

-8 ( +7 / -15 )

Cry babies. No action. Only crying all the time,

-9 ( +7 / -16 )

Complaints ignored.

-12 ( +10 / -22 )

I can just imagine the South Koreans laughing when Japan says, "We strongly demand ____ immediately!" and throw a hissy fit. It is indeed quite funny.

-13 ( +8 / -21 )

A relevant news.

https://www.reuters.com/world/having-shipped-artillery-shells-ukraine-canada-asks-skorea-more-2022-05-30/

Having shipped artillery shells to Ukraine, Canada asks S.Korea for more

South Korean broadcaster SBS, citing an unnamed high-ranking South Korean defence ministry official, said that the deal could involve up to 100,000 shells from South Korea's reserves, likely sold below market value.

"We are actively pursuing a plan to provide 100,000 rounds to Canada," the official told SBS.

Korea reportedly has an artillery shell stockpile of 6 million rounds, so giving away 100,000 rounds to Canada is no big deal, it will be refilled in a couple of months.

Korea also has a ballistic missile stockpile of at least 6,000, the exact number being classified.

-15 ( +2 / -17 )

@Eastman

why these island disputes with ROK,China and Russia remains unsolved? any ideas anyone?

This is because Japan refuses to fully honor the terms of surrender, which required Japan to give up all territories acquired through Imperialist expansion, such as the Diaoyu Islands, Liancourt Rocks, and Southern Kurils.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943_Cairo_Declaration#Text

"The Three Great Allies are fighting this war to restrain and punish the aggression of Japan. They covet no gain for themselves and have no thought of territorial expansion. It is their purpose that Japan shall be stripped of all the islands in the Pacific which she has seized or occupied since the beginning of the first World War in 1914, and that all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and The Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China. Japan will also be expelled from all other territories which she has taken by violence and greed. The aforesaid three great powers, mindful of the enslavement of the people of Korea, are determined that in due course Korea shall become free and independent."

-16 ( +5 / -21 )

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