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Japan defense update to stress air, sea surveillance capabilities

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By Linda Sieg and Kiyoshi Takenaka

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Does this mean South Korea is ahead of North Korea in getting ready to become a slave nation to CHINA?? I do hope Japan does not fall like South Korea is trying to kiss up to China. IMHO

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Sometimes, one has to wonder why it’s so hard for Abe’s admin to get it – increasing the size of Japanese defense budget or going out on a tour to find a few small Asian countries to form some sort of alliance won’t solve the crux of the issue with its neighbors ( China and South Korea)

The interesting thing is that on the surface, China pretends that it is seriously offended by the size of growing Japanese defense budgets, but privately it would probably be delighted because Japan just offers China a perfect excuse to inject even more money into its defense budgets to modernize its Air force and Navy. Unlike the US and Japan, China is authoritarian country, and the Chinese regime can allocate resources for its military machine without going through vigorous validation by its people.

Mr. Abe keeps asking for a summit with its neighbors, yet in the meantime labels its neighbors as threats. One can't have one’s cake and eat it too.

If a country really wants to have peace, it may be better to show some really peaceful intent.

-8 ( +2 / -10 )

Well, that's why right wing nuts cannot really think straight. They are so absorbed into their stupid imperial dream that they forget their population is aging and their nation is shrinking not growing.

So they can keep expand their budget but the truth is, China has over supply every where. It's much easier for China to expand military than Japan. Japan will be the 2nd Soviet Union in bankruptcy.

Peace in Asia, but let's start givng up your right wing dream. It's an impossible mission for Japan, right?

-10 ( +2 / -12 )

Everyone's getting ready for war!!!

Stupid people!!!

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

EthanWilberDec. 01, 2013 - 09:08AM JST

Sometimes, one has to wonder why it’s so hard for Abe’s admin to get it – increasing the size of Japanese defense >budget or going out on a tour to find a few small Asian countries to form some sort of alliance won’t solve the crux of >the issue with its neighbors ( China and South Korea)

I'd say the Abe administration has it right. Its the previous Noda administratuion that obviously didn't. And let's not forget that any Japanese action regarding defense is a reaction to China's expansion policy. China is the problem that needs to be solved, not South Korea.

The interesting thing is that on the surface, China pretends that it is seriously offended by the size of growing >Japanese defense budgets, but privately it would probably be delighted because Japan just offers China a perfect >excuse to inject even more money into its defense budgets to modernize its Air force and Navy. Unlike the US and >Japan, China is authoritarian country, and the Chinese regime can allocate resources for its military machine without >going through vigorous validation by its people.

Current Japanese defense plans mean nothing to China. This is proven by the fact that China continued to increase it's miitary all these years when Japanese defense was stagnant. China needs no excuse for it's actions, as they simply kept repeating 70 year old WWII history as an excuse when Japan was doing nothing.

Mr. Abe keeps asking for a summit with its neighbors, yet in the meantime labels its neighbors as threats. One can't >have one’s cake and eat it too.

Nonsense. China and North Korea are the only realistic and named threats, If you ask any Asian country you'd get the same two candidates. Continuing to seek a summit is called "exploring diplomatic channels" which is what any democratic peace loving country would do.

If a country really wants to have peace, it may be better to show some really peaceful intent.

If 70 years of undeniable peaceful intent is not good enough then nothing is good enough.

10 ( +12 / -2 )

For people who are not aware: in 2013 Japan ranks as world’s fifth largest defense spender,(2014 Japan will increase its defense budgets ever more) it’s right before France. In terms of landmass, Japan ranks the 62th in the world. To give a size comparison, Japan is smaller than Montana State of America, yet the Japan’s defense budgets seems, let’s say, a bit unproportional.

Peace is not measured by years passed by or a country's claims but the actions taken.

-9 ( +2 / -11 )

Oh, so to EthanWilber, the appropriate amount to spend is solely a function of landmass?

5 ( +6 / -1 )

EthanWilberDec. 01, 2013 - 10:10AM JST For people who are not aware: in 2013 Japan ranks as world’s fifth largest defense spender,(2014 Japan will increase >its defense budgets ever more) it’s right before France. In terms of landmass, Japan ranks the 62th in the world. To >give a size comparison, Japan is smaller than Montana State of America, yet the Japan’s defense budgets seems, >let’s say, a bit unproportional.

Using landmass as a basis for defense spending is absurd. What would France's defense budget be if it were right next to an enormous neo-fascist dictatorship on a military and territorial expansion program and made anti-French sentiment an official diplomatic and political tool?

Peace is not measured by years passed by or a country's claims but the actions taken.

Absolutey correct. China 1949-2013...Korean War, Vietnam, India, Soviet Border. Philippines... Japan.(1945-2013).....nothing.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

Peace is not measured by years passed by or a country's claims but the actions taken.

So just having a big military is a provocative act? As if Japan has no right to have effect and powerful military to defend itself? The Japanese military has not been mobilized for war in 70 years. Yet there are still who boldly claim that Japan is the bully of east Asia. Amazing...

Unlike the US and Japan, China is authoritarian country, and the Chinese regime can allocate resources for its military machine without going through vigorous validation by its people.

Since when does the Us need rigorous validation by it's people to increase the military budget? We spend over six times what China spends. They're not catching up anytime soon.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Japan is smaller than Montana State of America, yet the Japan’s defense budgets seems, let’s say, a bit unproportional.

Montana probably has more guns per capita, as long as we're making amusing comparisons.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

I agree to suggest that small countries should have small militaries and be weaker than big countries is absurd. A countries military strength is almost always proportionate to it's wealth. Japan probably spends among the smallest percentage of it's GDP on it's military. They can't help it if that's more than most other countries.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Elbuda MexicanoDEC. 01, 2013 - 08:03AM JST

"Does this mean South Korea is ahead of North Korea in getting ready to become a slave nation to CHINA??"

Study history to know it's homing instincts of politicians belonging to the remnants of thousands of years of China ocupation of that country.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

EthanWilberDec. 01, 2013 - 09:08AM JST

Sometimes, one has to wonder why it’s so hard for Abe’s admin to get it – increasing the size of Japanese defense budget or going out on a tour to find a few small Asian countries to form some sort of alliance won’t solve the crux of the issue with its neighbors ( China and South Korea)

1) Actually China is a growing cancer of Asia. Their ultimate ambition is to take over the entire Asia including Japan. What do you do when you are dealing with a bully?. You need to stand up and fight back.

2)Three years ago, Japan almost made a mistake to be swallowed up by China when China was fishing a new concept of "One Asia" to Hatoyama and Ozawa. They bought it,, and it almost worked for China..

China is authoritarian country, and the Chinese regime can allocate resources for its military machine without going through vigorous validation by its people. China is a one-party communist government, CCP can allocate resources anyway they want, and its core economic model is a "Communist"

Japan is smaller than Montana State of America, yet the Japan’s defense budgets seems, let’s say, a bit unproportional.

Oh dear, this is the most craziest things I have ever heard. The theory should be used for measuring a quality of life, a quality of service, and a quality of infrastructures.

If a country really wants to have peace, it may be better to show some really peaceful intent.

Peaceful intent? Bully has a different set of rules and he is careless. Remember, this is not a game, it is real.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

A good move by Japan, let's hope they get cracking on that straight away. Japan needs to be able to tackle anything the expansionist PRC throws at it. The best offense is a good defence. Or is it the other way around? Either way, having strong defensive capabilities is a good thing. And it's good to see that they want to bolster their defense without the use of nuclear arms. That would be unneccesary, and it's not like a nuclear warhead can't get shot down. The surveillance Drones would be very helpful in quickly identifying a threat and reporting it. And if they're manufactured by Japan, so much the better. Have you seen the gadgets produced by Japan? It's like being in the future. Japan-made Drones would be among the best in the world.

Seriously laughed at the suggestion that Japan's size should in any way have relevance on its defense budget. No. Just no. A country that has an aggressive, expansionist neighbour using a brainwashed army needs to have a high defense budget, to defend against said brainwashed army. As women so often tell men: Size doesn't matter.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Japan also have the largest known under-water CALDERAS. Calderas have a lot of minerals, Methane Hydrade, Gold, Nickel and Rare-Earth Metals.

China and even South Korea are trying to mine (through lobbying International body on deep-sea mining) to drill and get minerals just 20 to 50 miles west of Okinawa. There is one Caldera there that have more than 300 tons of gold, several hundreds and even thousands of Nickel, and thousands of tons of Rare-Earth metals.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

nanotechnologyDec. 01, 2013 - 11:33AM JST

Japan also have the largest known under-water CALDERAS. Calderas have a lot of minerals, Methane Hydrade, Gold, Nickel and Rare-Earth Metals.

I would like to see more Japanese aggressive investment for these resources. Japan is not a resource poor country. You need to utilize them all.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

globalwatcherDEC. 01, 2013 - 12:01PM JST

I would like to see more Japanese aggressive investment for these resources. Japan is not a resource poor country. You need to utilize them all.

Last week, Japan successfully mined METHANE HYDRADE using mass-production tools off the NIIGATA coast.

it is quite challenging to mine underwarer minerals because they are located 500 to 3,500 meters deep.

About the calderas, they are currently scouting several out of known hundreds around Japan if investment is worth or proportional to the volume of minerals underneath.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

A healthy mind can quickly see through China's hypocrisy claims. If you're still defending China you're on the wrong side and probably you agree with bullying of inferior neighbor countries (like half SE Asia), aggressive expansionism, and complete disregard for human rights.

Here's another fine example of China's total ignorance: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25165503

"If disputes existed, China wanted to solve them through "peaceful means via friendly negotiation," he said." <- Wow! I think we need to change the dictionaries and add the word "China" under the meaning for "Denial".

3 ( +5 / -2 )

nanotechnologyDec. 01, 2013 - 12:28PM JST

Last week, Japan successfully mined METHANE HYDRADE using mass-production tools off the NIIGATA coast.

Yey!! Can you hear that I am clapping hands with a big smile for you? pachi-pachi-pachi.......That's another reason China wants to take over Japan.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

EthanWilber Dec. 01, 2013 - 09:08AM JST

Chinese regime can allocate resources for its military machine without going through vigorous validation by its people.

I am not a fan or PRC. I have no J spouse or C spouse. I have no interest in their political tension. Japan has rights to increase her military budget in this current climate. However you are wrong in saying PRC does not support her people. If you research homeless static, suicide rate and social support service, Japan spend less than half amount of PRC for caring her people. In Fukushima, many homeless are not proud for watching their nation latest military hardware. They are depressed and hungry.

http://nuclear-news.net/2013/11/24/japans-mafia-gangs-exploiting-homeless-people-in-fukushima-nuclear-cleanup/

http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/297275/pinoyabroad/news/a-new-twist-in-japan-s-decades-old-problem-aging-homeless-people

During my last visit to PRC, many rural villages have transformed as urban cities. All villagers are living in the modern granny flats. It was a surprise for me to know that they followed post war Japanese urbanization model. PRC has been progressing the the largest migration of rural people to urban cities. In Japan homeless army members are hopelessly waiting for public housing. Suicide rate in Japan is incredibly high. Many times more than PRC. Therefore J authority put the national pride ahead of social welfare.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

I am puzzled. Why is Japan's ADIZ looks so much bigger than others and that's OK?

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/11/27/world/asia/overlapping-airspace-claims.html?ref=asia

Japan's ADIZ is in fact closer to China's border than to Japan's. Who sets the rules for these demarcation? Are we overreacting?

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

It's sad that it has to come down to an arms race, but a good defense is a strong offense, right ? Abe-san is 100% right to be increasing the arms budget - we're being naive if we think China is building their military for ''defensive'' purposes only - hopefully, America's shift back to Asia hasn't come too late.

It's been said before, but no other country has built up their military as fast as China has since the 1930s (Yes, that's right - since Japan and Nazi Germany) and we all know what happened next. By the way, I think Japan, through it's pacifist constitution, AND donations and financial developments in many countries HAS already attoned for it's past wrongs.

Also very interesting is the fact that countries who have a huge gender imbalance tend to be the ones that end up going to war.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

decibel Dec. 01, 2013 - 02:45PM JST

Thanks for your link! I agree with you for bias posters over reaction. Japan ADIZ is even larger than PRC's one. It is almost touching Taiwan shore.

Japan created its own ADIZ a full 45 years ago, in 1968, and has expanded the zone steadily over the years. The Japanese zone runs far to the south: its western boundary extends from south of South Korea all the way along the Chinese east coast to southern Taiwan. Even more important, its western most boundary is only 135 km (84 miles) off the coast of China!

http://larouchepac.com/node/29049

Japan zone boundary is very close to PRC. Therefore overlapping issue is not surprising. Japan started in 1968 without consent from neighbors. PRC is the late comer in 2013. The sun still rise from the east! Birds will still fly on the sky!

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

Why is Japan's ADIZ looks so much bigger than others and that's OK?

I looked at your map and I don't see that Japan's ADIZ looks 'so much' bigger. Japan's ADIZ is some 100 miles from the coast of China at its closest point, while China's 'new' ADIZ, even if we ignore the fact that it completely covers the Senkakus, is what, about 20 miles from the coast of Japan? And that's OK?

Japan's ADIZ is in fact closer to China's border than to Japan's.

No, it isn't.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

cleo Dec. 01, 2013 - 03:44PM JST

Yes! It is if you fly the plane from Senkaku to PRC, it will take only half hour with commercial air craft. If you fly with fighter jets to PRC east coast, it is less than ten minutes. Distance is 84 miles or 135 km. You have to remember Senkaku can be seen from Taiwan north coast.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Distance is 84 miles or 135 km.

From the Senkakus to the coast of China? No. It's a good 190 miles to the nearest offshore island, which I assume to be Chinese. Nearly 250 miles to the coastline. From the Senkakus to the nearest Japanese island (Yonaguni) is less than 95 miles.

You have to remember Senkaku can be seen from Taiwan north coast.

And that is relevant to anything because ....? It's China that declared the expanded ADIZ, not Taiwan.

France can be seen from the south coast of England. Russia can be seen from the west coast of Alaska. So what?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Cleo

I am not interested in political or geographical debate. I have seen above poster link of http://larouchepac.com/node/29049. According their information, distance is 84 miles or 135 km. I have not seen your link yet. According your post, the distance is more than that.

Would it be possible to link for me?

Once again, no interest in heated debate. Just curiosity about which link is more reliable and accurate. If your link is better, I will never go back to that site again.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

If your link is better, I will never go back to that site again.

There are so many reasons why you should never go back to that site that it would take years to explain them.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

I think all the reporters (Reuters, NYT, CNN, etc) on this subject of air-defense-identification-zone should be sent back to school to refresh on professional journalism.

They all have missed a key point in this dispute.

It is not because China ESTABLISHED this identification-zone over international air space… More than 20 countries (started by US) ESTABLISHED them decades ago. Additionally, US has mobile identification-zones around its naval carriers.

It is not because China UNILATERALLY established this identification-zone … all countries (more than 20) did their identification-zones “UNILATERALLY”.

It is not because this Chinese identification-zone OVERLAPS with that of Japan, Korea, Taiwan… Japanese identification-zone OVERLAPS with that of Korea and Taiwan (against their protests).

It is not because this Chinese identification-zone requires IDENTIFICATION AND LOCATION INFORMATION before the plane enters it… All identification-zones have this requirement.

The problem is that China identification-zone requires “flight plans beforehand for even just passing-through”… that is a new requirement that does not exist in the previous ADIZ identification-zones from the other countries. So the “flight plan for passing through” should be the bone of contention or criticism… because all the other arguments have no moral and logic ground to stand on!

1 ( +1 / -0 )

NathawDec. 01, 2013 - 03:37PM JST Japan created its own ADIZ a full 45 years ago, in 1968

Why do C-supporters keep repeating this misinformation?

"Japan's ADIZ was created by the U.S. during its post-World War II occupation of Japan. Management of the ADIZ was transferred in Japan in 1969. The Japanese ADIZ is not recognized by China or Russia"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Defense_IdentificationZone(East_China_Sea)

4 ( +6 / -2 )

So, an update and review.

Any indication that there will be an increase in military budget as well? How are you going to fulfill the ad lib of promises without a significant increase in military budget?

Stop talking and actually open up that wallet.

I will tell you why all these talks are just empty talks. In order for Abenomics to work, which the Chinese and Americans know this all too well, Japan simply cannot afford to increase its defense spending of any significant increase in gov't spending. Otherwise it will lead to another round of tax hike which no Japanese will support or want.

So all its gov't, politicians, and talking heads will do is continue with the rhetoric which will sound great among their own supporters but in reality do nothing.

That's why the Americans aren't on board with this. Notice those empty B-52s without escorts only skimmed the edges of the zone and now civilian airlines will comply with China's orders. How exactly are those actions supportive? Some training exercises? That happens every other quarter. Notice the US military aren't flying flights carrying any load of weapons which is a surprise to me. Either they already understood what's at stake or there were some form of silent agreement between China and US.

Either way, Japan needs to increase spending in order to really back up all these talks since the economic influence is no longer viable as China simply doesn't care for Japan at this point. The only other way is to arm itself to the teeth so discourage any impeding actions against itself.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

highball7Dec. 01, 2013 - 05:47PM JST That's why the Americans aren't on board with this. Notice those empty B-52s without escorts only skimmed the edges >of the zone and now civilian airlines will comply with China's orders.

You think we "aren't onboard"? I guess you haven't been reading the news about our "pivot" to the Pacific over last couple of years. The pair of B-52s did not skim the edges they flew right through, and despite China NOT knowing if they were armed or not, failed to challenge them. Since then multiple flights by US, Japanese and South Korean military aircraft with Chin's self declared ADIZ have been unchallenged. A humiliated China dispatched two SU-30s on a patrol but did not challenge anybody. Commercial aircraft complying means nothing as their priority is safety and notices to airmen are observed as standard practice without any political meaning. Besides, China can't afford to shoot down a commercial airliner...Again.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

According their information, distance is 84 miles or 135 km. I have not seen your link yet. According your post, the distance is more than that.

Would it be possible to link for me?

Don't bother what 'information' others (with an agenda) may put out; take a look for yourself at the map and measure the distances. I find this useful - http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-google-maps-distance-calculator.htm

The NYTimes map that decibel provided (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/11/27/world/asia/overlapping-airspace-claims.html?ref=asia) shows clearly that at its closest point the Japanese ADIZ is just about 100 miles from the coastal islands off China, while the Chinese ADIZ is just a few tens of miles from Yonaguni.

As for the larouchepac site, a very quick glance should set the alarm bells ringing - talk of the British Empire's asian encirclement plan, followed religilously(sic) by the Obama administration should tell you straight away that this is not an unbiased site.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

OssanAmerica Dec. 01, 2013 - 05:43PM JST

Why do C-supporters keep repeating this misinformation?

In fact, I am not a fan of PRC or Japan! I do not want to be biased!

Japan's ADIZ was created by the U.S. during its post-World War II occupation of Japan. Management of the ADIZ was transferred in Japan in 1969.

According your post, Japan current zone boundary is still identical with US creation of 1969. It is untrue and misleading. It is from your link.

Japan unilaterally expanded its ADIZ twice after the US transfer, one in 1972 and one in 2010. On June 25, 2010 Japan extended its ADIZ further into the East China Sea to cover Yonaguni Island. As this led to an overlapping with Taiwan's ADIZ which covers the western half of the Yonaguni Island the government of the Taiwan expressed its "regret" over Japan's move.

The same old story repeat again when PRC extended in 2013. You have misinformed as Japan ADIZ is still the same as 1969. Pls read your own link before you post!

0 ( +3 / -3 )

NathawDec. 01, 2013 - 06:26PM JST "OssanAmerica Dec. 01, 2013 - 05:43PM JST Why do C-supporters keep repeating this misinformation?"

In fact, I am not a fan of PRC or Japan! I do not want to be biased!

If so, you should not be declaring that "Japan created it's ADIZ when clearly it did not, The United States did,

0 ( +3 / -3 )

OssanAmerica Dec. 01, 2013 - 06:35PM JST

Ossan!

Japan created its own ADIZ a full 45 years ago, in 1968, and has expanded the zone steadily over the years. was seen from that link.

http://larouchepac.com/node/29049.

I am not an author of that link. If there is an error as you believe , you have to inform and ask them to correct. They should write as Japan inherited its own ADIZ from the USA full 45 years ago------according your advice.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

fw360 Dec. 01, 2013 - 05:26PM JST

Very informative and balanced post! Military air crafts have not informed their plan so far. In the long term, they may follow the commercial airlines "flight plan for passing through” for avoiding misunderstanding.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Notice the points OssanAmerica (and Nigelboy) keeps misrepresenting, and nicely pointed out by Nathaw. If Japan can unilaterally expand their zones with other nations, I don't see why China would stand still as Japan expands.

Sorry Japan, but it looks like the US and China are negotiating without you. Abe is upset. < http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20131201-00000031-jij-pol>

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

NathawDec. 01, 2013 - 07:24PM JST OssanAmerica Dec. 01, 2013 - 06:35PM JST Ossan! Japan created its own ADIZ a full 45 years ago, in 1968, and has expanded the zone steadily over the years. was >en from that link. http://larouchepac.com/node/29049. I am not an author of that link. If there is an error as you believe , you have to inform and ask them to correct. They >should write as Japan inherited its own ADIZ from the USA full 45 years ago------according your advice.

The site you used is biased as pointed out by others. The information is incorrect, Now that you have been informed you can verify it through multiple sources and abstain from repeating that incorrect information. That is being non-biased.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Sorry Japan, but it looks like the US and China are negotiating without you. Abe is upset

Sorry Chucky but the article you linked stated that it confirmed U.S. did not request the airliners to submit flight plans to China and that Abe will coordinate with Biden to further work closer to address th issue.

As Ossan alluded to, the ADIZ was established by GHQ in 1945.

http://sankei.jp.msn.com/world/news/110815/kor11081518000004-n2.htm

が国の、通称ADIZ、正式名称を防空識別圏と言いますけれども、航空自衛隊が領空を守るに当たって識別の参考にするエリアなんですね。  竹島のところを見てください。これは入っておりません。これはあえて外して作ったわけではなくて、当時、GHQが指定したものをそのまま使っているわけですから、外れているわけです。

http://kokkai.ndl.go.jp/SENTAKU/sangiin/180/0059/18008280059009a.html

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

chucky3176Dec. 01, 2013 - 08:51PM JST Notice the points OssanAmerica (and Nigelboy) keeps misrepresenting, and nicely pointed out by Nathaw. If Japan >can unilaterally expand their zones with other nations, I don't see why China would stand still as Japan expands. Sorry Japan, but it looks like the US and China are negotiating without you. Abe is upset. < >http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20131201-00000031-jij-pol>

I have misrepresented nothing. Japans ADIZ was created by the United States, I also had my wife look at your link and translate it. It appears that there is nothing in there that suggests "the US and China are negotiating without you (Japan)" as you stated. She suggested that if you can't read Japanese you shouldn't be posting links to articles in that language. I think that is a valid point. Don't you?

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Sorry Nigelboy, but where are you getting this? The article that I linked to, clearly says Abe is trying to find out through diplomatic channels, if it's really true that the US has asked their airlines to abide by China's air defense zone. Where's the confirmation? And as for your claim that Japan and US will coordinate with each other during Biden's visit, that's what Abe said. But I'm sure that's what the US will say too, but we all know how back room deals are done when it comes to international politics.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

Sorry Nigelboy, but where are you getting this? The article that I linked to, clearly says Abe is trying to find out through diplomatic channels

'米政府が民間航空会社にフライトプランを提出するよう要請したことはないと、外交ルートを通じて確認している"

Nope. He said he "confirmed" through diplomatic channels.

Same point here

http://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXNASFS01003_R01C13A2PE8000/

米政府が明示的に要請していない点を強調した "Emphasized the point that US. government did not specifically made those request."

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Nigelboy, the article doesn't say he "confirmed" that the US did not tell their airlines to abide by China's claims. It says he is still in the process of confirming the reports through diplomatic channels that the US did indeed make that request from their airlines. Judging by all the negative reactions by Japanese commentators to that story who are bashing the US, you can tell that I'm right. Lot of them are saying that Japan and US were never really allies in the first place, or that the Americans are backstabbers, and that Japan should take revenge by cashing in Japan held US treasuries, etc etc. on and on... lol...

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

I felt actually honored to see many people in this forum to response my earlier posts and debate what I’ve said although I am amused by the usual bellicose remarks given by those zesty nationalists. Nothing is new about that as we knew already. :)

I am going to leave some seemly “provocative” questions againand invite you to ponder with me further:

Given that both Germany and Japan committed horrendous crimes against humanity and substantially defeated during World War II, why has Germany returned as a respectful member to sit together with the US, UK, French, Russia and China to make important decisions over a series of important affair of the world? Where is Japan in the world stage today? Is it true because China made Japan at today’s declined position or there is something else?

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

I hear China and S/N Korea are teaching wrong history, is that true? We don't admit that kind of thing. If they would do so, we couldn't trust them all. What do they want to do? They couldn't bash non of other countries. What could I believe?

0 ( +2 / -2 )

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Everyone seems to be missing the point that an ADIZ is carved out by speaking with the nations its affects and that more than 2 nations besides the nation declaring the ADIZ has to approve it first. Also a planned ADIZ has to be announced ahead of time, not just suddenly like China just did. China has blatantly missed a couple of rules to creating it's ADIZ by international laws. Its going to come and bite it in the ass really soon too.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

yosunDec. 01, 2013 - 11:15PM JST

For nigelboy & chucky: it's for your information:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/30/world/asia/china-japan-us-tensions/index.html?hpt=ias_c2

I do not know if you have read my post in different topic on this issue, I believe this is the most updated info. My son USAFA cadet and a fighter pilot has already told me that US airliners are replacing pilots, to the SE Asia, to ex military pilots as they would know how to handle the situation in case China decide to shoot at commercial airlines.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Check out all the Japanese media, Asahi(朝日), Yomuiri (讀賣), Sankei (産經), and Mainichi (每日), all have articles on how Japan is being left out of the loop, and they're saying US/Japan cooperation on this matter is being torn out, as the US government have told their civilian airlines to abide by China's claims, while Japan still hasn't. The Japanese media is shocked and upset, and I'm sure the Japanese government is too.

-4 ( +4 / -8 )

I do not know why people on this forum are still debating if US had stabbed Japan’s back on this issue.

Just read the many 24-hour old news articles reporting that US government has urged all American airlines to submit flight plans for “passing through” this PRC ADIZ. (I am also curious why Japan Today does not report this.) This really slaps the face of Abe’s government… They demanded non-compliance from Japanese airlines who withdrawed their previous compliance statements. That really make Japanese look bad… they are violating the cardinal rule of civilian flights: first priority is the passenger safety. They care more about playing politics than civilian lifes!

Is there any coordination between Japan and US?

Here are some sample articles you can read.

Reuters: U.S. commercial airlines advised to notify China of flight plans http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/30/us-japan-china-usa-airlines-idUSBRE9AT01K20131130 CNN: U.S. 'advising' airlines to 'comply' with China request on disputed zone http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/29/world/asia/china-japan-us-tensions/index.html?iref=allsearch
-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Taking a really childish direction here. From the very outset it was everyone's position, including China's that commercial airline flights didn't matter. That foreign military flights are occurring in China's declared ADIZ is the bigger issue, If the C-supporters are so desperate to find "problems" with the US-Japan alliance, then they should also be wondering about the US-SKorea alliance as well since KAL and Asiana have declared non compliance just like the Japanese airlines,

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Cleo

Indeed, I calculated with your link for distance between Senkaku and PRC eastcoast. Even it is less than other posters mentioned before. Their information is 136 km or 84 miles.

I have got the distance as 130 km. Therefore if you think they have misled that, pls supply your calculation with link pls? I may be right or wrong. Their statics is closer to 140 km less than you mentioned.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

The lack of coordination between US and its allies is obvious, to say the least... it is embarrasing to the Japanese governement which now announced it will leave it to the Japanese airlinese to comply or not. Wow! What a mess.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Octagon

Japan ADIZ is far beyond to the Senkaku from Japan. The closet one to Japan boundary is Yonaguni Island. Boundary zone is far away from mainland Japan unless you measure from that tiny dot. That dot is very close to Taiwan too. Japan extended further and further from Japan back in 2010.

The more likely static is 84 miles or 130 or 140 Kms from PRC. That tiny Island is 90 miles or 144 km. If we deduct 140 from 144 kms, PRC distance from boundary is less than 4 kms of Japan. Therefore more or less is pretty marginal. It is just the psychological issue. Besides that air is uncontrolable like land with barriers and gates. Who cares about 4 or 5 kms?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Octagon, I don't know where you are looking. Unless there is some tiny Chinese island that doesn't show on the map, the distance from the largest of the Senkakus to the nearest Chinese land is some 190 miles, to the coast of China is over 200 miles, measured on the google-maps distance calculator.

The larouchepac site that you referred to claims the distance from the edge of the Japanese ADIZ to the Chinese mainland is 84 miles; that's not the same as the distance from the Senkakus. Look at the NYTimes map of the various ADIZs; it shows clearly that the Chinese ADIZ is much, much closer to Japan at its closest point than the Japanese ADIZ is to China at any point.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

@globalwatcher: I did read your mentioned post and also other posts so I knew you’re not happy about what the US did regarding this issue. However my understanding is that White house overlook this issue from a higher standpoint so they basically balanced both sides(JP & CN) no matter what they orally said. Anyway I think AIDZ is not a real issue (pls refer to below Art. From CNN) but was exaggerated for political purpose and actually many countries, like the US & Canada, ADIZ overlapped.

What is an "Air Defense Identification Zone" or ADIZ? The ADIZ is not a new concept. It's essentially a buffer zone outside a country's sovereign airspace. Several countries including the United States and Japan have established ADIZ in international airspace next to their nations. A foreign aircraft traveling in an ADIZ can be required to identify itself for entry into that country's airspace. It is unilaterally imposed, so it doesn't really have a legal basis and isn't based on negotiation with neighbors, said James Hardy, the Asia-Pacific Editor of IHS Jane's Defence Weekly. "It's purpose is to give the country an early warning zone in which it can intercept potentially unfriendly aircraft."

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Nigelboy, the article doesn't say he "confirmed" that the US did not tell their airlines to abide by China's claims. It says he is still in the process of confirming the reports through diplomatic channels that the US did indeed make that request from their airlines. Judging by all the negative reactions by Japanese commentators to that story who are bashing the US, you can tell that I'm right. Lot of them are saying that Japan and US were never really allies in the first place, or that the Americans are backstabbers, and that Japan should take revenge by cashing in Japan held US treasuries, etc etc. on and on... lol...

"indeed make that request"

The other poster indcated "urged"

U.S. reponse.

"The U.S. government generally expects that U.S. carriers operating internationally will operate consistent with NOTAMs (Notices to Airmen) issued by foreign countries. Our expectation of operations by U.S. carriers consistent with NOTAMs does not indicate U.S. government acceptance of China's requirements for operating in the newly declared ADIZ."

i.e. It's the discretion of the carrier.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Is there any coordination between Japan and US?

Here are some sample articles you can read.

Reuters: U.S. commercial airlines advised to notify China of flight plans http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/30/us-japan-china-usa-airlines-idUSBRE9AT01K20131130

CNN: U.S. 'advising' airlines to 'comply' with China request on disputed zone http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/29/world/asia/china-japan-us-tensions/index.html?iref=allsearch

Folks, note in the titles, Reuters used the word "advised" and CNN used "advising"... so is that "urging" or not? So, the US government did not do what the Abe government did a few days ago: asking the civilian airlines not to comply.

I think two persons, at least, should be fired: The Japanese advisor suggested non-compliance and the Japanese coordinator with US on this.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Yes, continue to go for better military. But remember, the real goal is not so much to fight a war with anyone in particular. The real goal is to become independent of the US. This must be Abe's real goal, or else he's been acting like mad man. He has to tell the Americans he is aiming at defending Japan against China. But of course the Americans know.

The Americans have made many mistakes, but one thing you must remember, they are no fools. They are smarter than anyone else. As secretary of state Madelaine Albright said: The United States is that indispensable nation that sees higher and farther than any nation in the world.

Looking down from that height and distance, what do the Americans see? Russia and China. Those are the countries they need to deal with. Since the Americans can't afford a war with them, the Americans will work with them (to its own best interest of course.) Japan is just one of Americans' 40 or so mistresses, not even the favorite. Certainly not part of the power play in the circle of real men.

That's why Abe wants to become independent. But alas, he's doing it wrong and his time is too short.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Japan sees its military buildup as for defense. China sees it as planning for war with China. Whereas the opposite is also true: China sees its own buildup as necessary for defense, but Japan sees it as unpredictable and dangerous to Japan. The root cause is exactly what Bidden said: mistrust. So he said candor breeds trust, and trust leads to constructive dialog.

This is the so-called defense dilemma: Anything one country does for defense is always perceived by its rival as offensive in nature.

This was the reason for the ICBMs arms race between US and USSR during the cold war. 40 years later it is clear to everyone, that it was all a waste of money and spit on both sides.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

rsgz4gg7y2Dec. 06, 2013 - 08:23AM JST Japan sees its military buildup as for defense. China sees it as planning for war with China. Whereas the opposite is >also true: China sees its own buildup as necessary for defense, but Japan sees it as unpredictable and dangerous to >Japan. The root cause is exactly what Bidden said: mistrust. So he said candor breeds trust, and trust leads to >constructive dialog. This is the so-called defense dilemma: Anything one country does for defense is always perceived by its rival as >offensive in nature.

This is all very true. But it leaves out the fact that all of Asia as well as the US ,Australia and EU See China's military and territorial expansion as "aggressive". And Japan's buildup as a "response" to that aggression. Only China uses a 70 year old outdated and inapplicable image of Japan as an excuse for it's own nontransparent military buildup.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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