Japan denies plan to join China-led development bank

If you are a participant you have a vote on policies and projects. If you see the world full of rivals and believe in slogans such as " kanarasu katsu " you are on your own and better don't complain.

Playing a game of catch up, American Treasury Secretary Lew said in Beijing that America was willing to work with the AIIB. This is interpreted to mean that America will not/cannot join, but is resigned that AIIB is a reality and needs to sound somewhat positive. So, America is trying to get out of its hole somewhat. Perhaps Japan should also, but the Abe administration leadership is too much led by its pride and prejudice against China.

“Anyway, I think it’s impossible for Japan to take part today,”

Well, today's the deadline, so prepare to be left in the dust, again. When you 'decide' to join in a few months (as the ambassador said Japan will), it'll be with begging.

liarsnfoolsMar but the Abe administration leadership is too much led by its pride and prejudice against China.

I don't think so. The only reasonn Japan, I should say, Abe administration , won't join is because America doesn't. Abe is like loyal dog, Chyuuken 忠犬, to America, cannot do or say anything against America.

ADB, which is not exactly the counterpart of AIIB ,but ,is already running mainly led by US and Japan. Of cource it occurts to them that 'Why another?', 'We got already one working' participating 67 coutries while AIIB is 40.

Has anyone seen the 2010 documentary "Last Train Home"?

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/last_train_home-2009

It shows the painful social conflict that arises between those Chinese citizens who produce consumer goods for the world, and those Chinese who want to consume them. 130 million Chinese make the trip from provincial villages to the urban centers for work, they work bent over sewing machines, assembling perhaps the electronics you're using right now. They live in dormitories — married adults, with next to no privacy.

Their lives are a grim contrast to the glittering Beijing of the Olympics, the towers of Shanghai, the affluent new business class.

And Xi magnanimously starts the AIIB to fund projects in underdeveloped nations, but China was built on exploiting it's own underdeveloped villages.

I'm sorry, I don't understand how people see Xi as some savior to the world's ills.

"IF YOU LIE DOWN WITH DOGS, YOU WAKE UP WITH FLEAS" is an approriate expression regarding giving the CCP PRC the gift of acceptance, approval, and consolidation of power. Another term I think appropriate, is, "greedy fools". Now, lets see if my opinion is censored on this site. Surely it would be censored on any mainland PRC site. Is "freedom" so precious that you freely trade with tyrants, red fascists, abusers of basic human rights? Oh, no, my opinion here, is not that of a "lapdog, poodle of the Americans". No. Not at all. I AM an American. Not a Goverment spokesman. I'm one of the few left who gives a damn about true principled freedom, and true love for basic human rights. Disagree with me? Well then, whose "toy poodle" are you? Take you bank. You know what you can do with it.

Development banks are. Not needed. Most projects are a failure.

Wow! [ Jay Que at Mar. 31, 2015 - 08:00PM JST "IF YOU LIE DOWN WITH DOGS, YOU WAKE UP WITH FLEAS" is an approriate expression regarding giving the CCP PRC the gift of acceptance, approval, and consolidation of power. ]

Given how many American companies do deals with China, America will end up with a lot of fleas! Apple is one of many companies opening stores left, right and centre. Also China is one of the biggest holders of American bonds.

Is China a problem? Yes. Will ignoring them create freedom for the ordinary citizens of China? No. If you want democacy then you need more middle class Chinese being educated in "the West". Isolating China won't produce a democacy. People won't wake up wanting democacy. They want work then representation.

Basically China is setting up it's own bank because Europe and America won't allow China to have any say in the World Bank. Usually the top job at the IMF or the World Bank goes to an American or an European. Is that democratic? I don't think so.

Development banks are. Not needed. Most projects are a failure.

More troublesome is, with these big banks, have countries ever got their investments back or do they just keep losing taxpayer money? And if so, why keep joining more?

That describes the Japan's founding of the ADB, which was a failure due to its practice of tying its loans with awarding projects for Japanese companies, then calling them "economic aid". Japan doesn't like the new bank because they know they'll now be overshadowed by the new China lead bank which has far more cash and economic leverage than the shrinking Japan will ever have.

Development banks are. Not needed. Most projects are a failure.

Japan is following the US agenda, its main ally, unlike other Western allies. End of the story.

@JandworldMAR. 31, 2015 - 04:05PM JST If you are a participant you have a vote on policies and projects. If you see the world full of rivals and believe in slogans such as " kanarasu katsu "

I suggest you not to write slogans in Japanese if you are not familiar with Japanese language. Just write in English.

Back to topic, No wonder Mitsubishi and Kawasaki brushed off Australia invitation to build new type of submarines. And Australia will be financed by AIIB? Seems Japan couldn't care less. Unlike countries whcih joined AIIB, Japan does not need AIIB loans as it has ADB already.China is biggest USA debt holder anyway. Japan can go independently.

In this particular case, Japan might be doing the right thing – Why does Japan want to dig its own grave?

that said, Japan’s past glories are fading away,, fast. It’s future are uncertain even it’s trying to emancipate it from the downward spiral, yet what it can do are too late and too little given its demographic.

Japan will be here for long long time, that is for sure, especially as a tourists’ attraction, but as a credible worldly power, that’s overrated already.

Japan’s past glories are fading away

Japan was never a super-power. A super-power isn't only strong economically, but also politically and militarily. Anyway it can still enjoy a good growth in future if it will exploit properly China's growth. But the US are in the middle. China is an emerging super-power, and the most probable main super-power for the next 50/100 years. The US is a super-power in decline that doesn't accept its decline.

China passed a major milestone this year, one unnoticed by most: for the first time, the number of young workers entering the economy was eclipsed by older workers retiring. Over the next few decades, China will by necessity become increasingly preoccupied with dealing with this situation. China is and will remain a powerful regional player, but it does not have the strength to become anything more. What you see now is China at its high tide.

Bam, Laguna nailed, the number 1 reason why China won‘t be a superpower. Not now, not for the foreseeable future, and probably not ever.

Bam, Laguna nailed, the number 1 reason why China won‘t be a superpower. Not now, not for the foreseeable future, and probably not ever.

This seems more a wishful thinking from some people than the reality. It's like some people think China will never get tons of migrants, for example. Maybe not for now, but in the next future, it's very probable. I don't see how somebody can say "never"...

A sensible move as no civilized country needs to be involved in propping up the world's worst regimes.

Obama is pro-China, anti-Japan, and US and China are in good relation. Japan might be the only insolated country.

US is inviting Abe, but considering making Abe apologize. Very indecisive. Japan should be careful.

This seems more a wishful thinking from some people than the reality. It's like some people think China will never get tons of migrants, for example. Maybe not for now, but in the next future, it's very probable. I don't see how somebody can say "never"...

Wishful thinking? How so? Do you deny that China is facing a population crisis? Why would people migrate to a polluted, proudly authoritarian country with little regard for civil liberties, and a decreasing population?

＞ Obama is pro-China, anti-Japan, and US and China are in good relation. Japan might be the only insolated country.

Oh, you again? Anti-Japan, how so? Because he doesn't swallow the revisionist BS you spew? Again, where are US bases? In Japan. Again, the US is not pro-China or Anti-Japan, they are pro-America.

＞US is inviting Abe, but considering making Abe apologize. Very indecisive. Japan should be careful.

Yes, they should.

As for the AIIB：

‘Under President Joko Widodo, Indonesia is expected to be one of the main beneficiaries of the bank as it seeks significant funding to build new roads, ports and bridges in the vast archipelago.

"We are fighting to get a position in the AIIB ... because most likely we will be the biggest client," Finance Minister Bambang Brodjonegoro told reporters late on Wednesday.

"I have been lobbying China in regards to who will be the bank's host, the positions, shareholders and projects." ‘

-the best way to rob a bank is to own it.

Lololol good luck with the ROI bit.

Why would people migrate to a polluted, proudly authoritarian country with little regard for civil liberties, and a decreasing population?

Because they need to work.

Because they need to work.

And there aren‘t dozens of other countries in which they could work?

If you haven‘t noticed a number of SE Asian countries are already taking factory jobs from China.

Again, facts please.

Again, facts please.

Immigration of young Italians to China, since 2006 to 2013: +239%

http://www.today.it/cronaca/italiani-emigrati-in-cina.html

The trend says everything.

Industrial and developmental finance flows freely in the world and little of East and SE Asia is lacking for funds (South and Central Asia are a different matter). As was mentioned up thread, the area in the greatest need for development aid is Central and Western China. Rather than worrying about trying to extend its influence throughout Asia, which is really a non-starter as no one in the region respects or trusts, the Chinese would be better off spending their surplus at home. There is no screaming hole in Asian finance that this bank will address.

＞Immigration of young Italians to China, since 2006 to 2013: +239%

http://www.today.it/cronaca/italiani-emigrati-in-cina.html

The trend says everything.

So immigration went from 100 to 239? Percentages alone mean nothing.

Also, are you really suggesting that masses of Italians will flock to China to work in factories? Lol

Also, are you really suggesting that masses of Italians will flock to China to work in factories? Lol

Someday, mass of people around the world could do it. Think whatever you like, though.

What you see now is China at its high tide.

And what is plan B? Y'know, just in case.

The truth is that China and Japan have way more in common than Japan and the US, or China and the US. Traditional China influenced traditional Japan a lot, modern Japan influenced modern China a lot. They could build up a strong bond, and enjoy peace together.

@Harvey Pekar: Their lives are a grim contrast to the glittering Beijing of the Olympics, the towers of Shanghai, the affluent new business class. And Xi magnanimously starts the AIIB to fund projects in underdeveloped nations, but China was built on exploiting it's own underdeveloped villages. I'm sorry, I don't understand how people see Xi as some savior to the world's ills.

The same way people see Modi of India being savior of India. Indians are living in far worse conditions. Just one example: Of the 1 billion people in the world who have no toilet, India accounts for nearly 600 million.

The "alliance" between Japan and the US is still similar to the old "unequal treaties" between the Western Powers and China and Japan. It's sad, but the westerns will never see not western people as equal to them. China is trying to create a more balanced world. If only Japan could embrace her world, maybe there could be peace in the East Asia.

China find it frustrating that they have to buy U.S. Treasury securities to protect themselves from capital flow volatility that is in part due to U.S. fiscal and monetary policies. They are trying to diversify into other currencies and other assets. But the reality is that there are no other financial markets that give them both safety and liquidity to the extent the U.S. can.

If China moves ahead with financial market reforms and liberalizes capital flows so foreign investors can acquire renminbi denominated assets, China’s renminbi could become a major reserve currency. But that wouldn’t be enough to make the renminbi a safe haven currency that would challenge the dollar. For that to happen, China would have to undertake significant reforms to its political, institutional and legal frameworks. That is needed for foreign investors to invest with confidence in China’s markets, for safety rather than just high yield.

@ Harvey Pekar

I'm sorry, I don't understand how people see Xi as some savior to the world's ills.

I don't think anyone sees that about Xi or China. It is just accepted that the AIIB will be a good competition to the existing international lenders who've had quite a monopoly for some time. With competition, there are better products and services.

To even go on a rant about "people seeing Xi as some savior" and then using examples of unsavory practices of exploitation (as if the IMF and WB and the history of the Western world didn't go through that, if not, still is to some degree) tells more about you more than anything else. It hints of some insecurity on your part. I think the realization of the AIIB contributed to that. There will be more of this in the near future though, so be prepared.

I don't like AIIB. 'Cause it is a challenge to America and American influence. And that is bad. Because it is. Because America is good and China sucks. In case you didn't know.

So that is why I don't like AIIB. What's more, neither should you. 'Cause what's bad for America, what ware ware Americans don't like is objectively the right thing not to like, in case you didn't know.

It seems many here forgot that. So I am here to remind you: the US good; China Bad. See?

And if you don't agree, we'll bomb you.

@ Alex80

Someday, mass of people around the world could do it. Think whatever you like, though.

The trends I've been noticing is that many companies, even Chinese ones, are setting up factories outside of China due to the rising labor costs there. But I get what you're saying, that the world is getting more globalized. But cardsfan5 also makes a good point. Given China's population, and the fact that many people there are still looking for jobs (a daunting task given the slowing economy), it'll be the least likely placed that you described . Also, there are other countries, even developing ones, that are a bit more open.

I think it's pretty dumb of Japan to snub this new bank just because it's lead by China. Because someday, Japan will need financial help from China to avert Japan's collapsing financial position. Just because pride, Japan would rather act arrogant towards a country that Japan needs badly. Japanese leaders still sticking their heads in the sand, rather than face reality.

Just because pride

Just because its main ally is the US. Fixed for you.

Just because its main ally is the US. Fixed for you.

I don't think so. Japan would abandon their ally if it means losing big profit. It's just that Japan's interest overlaps with the American's. The US wants to prop up their own IMF bank. And Japan wants to prop up their own Asian Development Bank. And this Chinese bank goes counter against both banks. So of course US and Japan agree with each other. They both have the same interest in propping up their banks that are controlled by them. The Chinese bank spoils all this.

I don't think so. Japan would abandon their ally if it means losing big profit.

Do you think Japan can go against Washington agenda? The answer is no. Also the Europeans usually can't, indeed it's a kind of miracle that this time they did something against the US interests.

... no civilized country needs to be involved in propping up the world's worst regimes.

Exactly, well said. That is why many are now leaving the dollar.

@cardsfan5

Anti-Japan, how so?

Obama, Biden, Kennedy, Clinton. All of them criticized Japan over war. You may not have been noticed because you were not the target of the criticism, but the Japanese people noticed.

Because he doesn't swallow the revisionist BS you spew?

Americans can not talk anything about Japan without bringing up the war even after 70 years, which shows how Americans are brainwahed like the US lawmakers who're demanding Abe apologize at the Congress address they are inviting him to.

Obama, Biden, Kennedy, Clinton. All of them criticized Japan over war.

No Tina, no one is criticizing Japan over 'the war.' What people are critical of is the inability of Japanese politicians, such as Shinzo Abe, and the Japanese right to show any sensitivity or any acknowledgement to the victims of WWII.

You may not have been noticed because you were not the target of the criticism, but the Japanese people noticed.

Oh really? How so?

First off, you are not an elected politician, so you don't represent the opinion of any Japanese person other than yourself.

Second, according to PEW polls conducted in 2012, 72% of Japanese citizens view the US favorably. So, where are these Japanese people who 'noticed?' Any statistics you'd like to share?

http://www.pewglobal.org/2012/06/13/global-opinion-of-obama-slips-international-policies-faulted/

Americans can not talk anything about Japan without bringing up the war even after 70 years, which shows how Americans are brainwahed like the US lawmakers who're demanding Abe apologize at the Congress address they are inviting him to.

Again, there are 300 million of us. You cannot pretend that every American thinks or holds the same opinion about Japan, so let's not generalize. :)

As for demanding an apology: Who says? Where was that written? I could find 0 mention of a demand, but if you have such an article, I'd love to read it :)

sfjp330APR. 01, 2015 - 04:37AM JST China find it frustrating that they have to buy U.S. Treasury securities to protect themselves from capital flow volatility that is in part due to U.S. fiscal and monetary policies.

I'm sure that true. Let the yuan float and that won't be a problem anymore.

cardsfan5, The last sentence of the article says

U.S. lawmakers still have been quietly urging that Abe should address the war's legacy when he makes his speech April 29.

If you don't believe the change of sentiment among the Japanese people toward Americans, maybe you should ask US Embassy what reaction they received when they criticized Abe's shrine visit.

Why don't Japanese people have negative view toward US when US politiciens keep criticizing Japan? In recent example Maryland state voted condemnation against Japan over war, or several state erected comfort women statues or many Americans keep criticizing Japan as revisionist like yourself when it is in fact it is Americans who are revisionist by all those movement going along with Koreans in recent years. Do you think Japanaese people forgot Obama criticized Japan when he was in Korea? Americans don't care if they criticize and hurt the Japanese, but people being kept criticized remember.

So, you think it is OK US lawmakers "quietly urging that Abe should address the war's legacy when he makes his speech April 29"?

@cardsfan5APR. 02, 2015 - 12:26AM JST You are not following the news much at leat Japanese related news. I guess you don't read Japanese language news. The artcile of US lawmakers demanding Abe apology is in JT too titled "Japan's long wait to address US Congress" Then for crying out loud, post a link! Where is the link? Don't give me this, I guess you don't read Japanese language news' bs. Nowhere does it say they are 'demanding,' so give us a link or quit whining.

Since US elected lawmakers do not speak in Japanese Language and so I let you know that no one requested Japan to apologize in English. You don't need link. They don't speak in Japanese and they are too busy talking about Afghan withdrawals and more USA topics. Trust me, I am not guessing about USA.

Why don't Japanese people have negative view toward US when US politiciens keep criticizing Japan?

Because most Japanese people are not right wingers, and don't feel the need to whitewash history. They understand the basis behind these criticisms.

@Tina:

U.S. lawmakers still have been quietly urging that Abe should address the war's legacy when he makes his speech April 29.

That sentence says 'urge,' not 'demand.' Using the ctrl f function on a computer, we can quickly find specific words. In the article you quoted, there is no mention of the word 'demand.' Demand is not the same as urge and no one in the US government is demanding Japan do anything.

Let's have a look at what the US press secretary has said about Japan and apologies:

MS. PSAKI: We did see President – Prime Minister Abe’s remarks. As you know and we’ve stated many times from here, the apologies – our view is that the apologies extended by previous Prime Minister Murayama and former Chief Cabinet Secretary Kono marked important chapters in Japan’s efforts to improve relations with its neighbors. As we’ve indicated many times, we encourage Japan to continue to work with its neighbors to resolve concerns over history in an amicable way through dialogue.

QUESTION: Will you be encouraging the Japanese to include specific language in the statement that reconciles historical differences with its neighbors?

MS. PSAKI: Well, I think, as I mentioned, there’s been a statement that’s been issued already. Beyond that, I don’t have anything to preview for you.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2015/01/235595.htm#JAPAN

There, its right there. In no way is the US demanding Japan do anything to apologize or include specific language, nor should they.

If you don't believe the change of sentiment among the Japanese people toward Americans, maybe you should ask US Embassy what reaction they received when they criticized Abe's shrine visit.

Or you could provide a link to support your claim? :) I highly doubt anymore than a few hundred calls at most were received by the US embassy and at any rate, the US government was well within reason to complain about visits to Yasukuni Shrine when not even Emperor Hirohito would visit Yasukuni because of the war criminals enshrined there:

'The record confirms that Hirohito said in 1988 that he had stopped visiting the controversial Yasukuni Shrine because it had added Class A war criminals to those enshrined there. His last visit to Yasukuni was in 1975.'

http://www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/first-volumes-of-biography-of-emperor-showa-go-on-sale

In recent example Maryland state voted condemnation against Japan over war, or several state erected comfort women statues or many Americans keep criticizing Japan as revisionist like yourself when it is in fact it is Americans who are revisionist by all those movement going along with Koreans in recent years.

Again, Tina, that is not revisionism; it is a well documented fact which you conveniently ignore. Erecting comfort women statues is about as awful as setting up memorials to the victims of the A-bomb.

Do you think Japanaese people forgot Obama criticized Japan when he was in Korea? Americans don't care if they criticize and hurt the Japanese, but people being kept criticized remember.

Stop trying to lump all 120+ million Japanese citizens together. I have no doubt that Japanese rightwingers such as yourself 'remember being criticized' (whatever that means?), but the majority of Japanese people do not care. According to opinion polls, American politicians such as Kennedy and Obama are more popular amongst the Japanese people than Abe. So no, I don't think 'they remember.'

http://www.pewglobal.org/2012/06/13/global-opinion-of-obama-slips-international-policies-faulted/

So, you think it is OK US lawmakers "quietly urging that Abe should address the war's legacy when he makes his speech April 29"?

I do. Its far better than the alternative of burying your head in the sand and pretending Japan did nothing wrong in WWII.

China is becoming the new US in terms of economic power so joining them could be very beneficial for Japan future.

China is becoming the new US in terms of economic power so joining them could be very beneficial for Japan future.

Except they are strapped with debt like the US, but like Japan face a demographic crisis.

Let me see. USA owes China and Japan. China stopped to buy US bonds but Japan hasn't stopped. If China succeeds in AIIB and Japan is OK with ADB, and SE Asian countries still depends on Japan Inc, develop their industry and China loan them, Chinese money will drain to Japan. Ausie will create European designed submarines with Chinese money and Mitsubishi and Kawasaki coudn't care less. Meanwhile, S Korea will depend on Chinese loan. Asian power?

Just because its main ally is the US. Fixed for you.

Just because it's the US's main lapdog. Fixed it for you.

What's the 'mentality' behind forming an infrastructure bank when they themselves are one of the leading receipients from the already established ADB?

http://www.adb.org/sites/default/files/institutional-document/42741/od-appendix1.pdf

nigelboyAPR. 04, 2015 - 06:26AM JST What's the 'mentality' behind forming an infrastructure bank when they themselves are one of the leading receipients from the already established ADB?

China's economy has slowed dramatically and unless they can figure out how to raise the standard of living for the remaining 90% or so of Chinese not living on the coast or in Beijing, this whole venture is silly. China's economic output (never likely it's per capita GDP) could very well pass the U.S., but only if they can figure out how to increase wages and consumption and this rarely happens or can be sustained for an economy that is skewed towards low value added exports.

China's economy has slowed dramatically and unless they can figure out how to raise the standard of living for the remaining 90% or so of Chinese not living on the coast or in Beijing, this whole venture is silly. China's economic output (never likely it's per capita GDP) could very well pass the U.S., but only if they can figure out how to increase wages and consumption and this rarely happens or can be sustained for an economy that is skewed towards low value added exports.

Another thing that's puzzling is are these 'loans' extended by AIIB going to be in "USD" denomination since the initial paid in capital appears to be? It's boggles my ind not having a member who has the sole power to issue "USD" which is the United States.