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Gov't was aware of sinking ground ahead of U.S. base landfill work: documents

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American military will still be there in the year 2045

7 ( +8 / -1 )

Finally nice to see an accurate accounting of the "relocation" of Futenma to Camp Schwab's landfill!

Not some BS about a "new" base!

Whether they knew or not, really doesnt matter now, as at least 1/4 to 1/3 of the landfill is completed, and it's time to finish it!

-3 ( +8 / -11 )

Asked why the findings were not made public in 2015, the bureau said, "We do not normally disclose boring and other survey results every time they are conducted."

ie we had a plan and we knew this wasn’t a good one. Best to charge ahead and say sorry about it when it’s too late. Not like anybody actually has a say or expect honesty.

7 ( +11 / -4 )

ie we had a plan and we knew this wasn’t a good one. Best to charge ahead and say sorry about it when it’s too late. Not like anybody actually has a say or expect honesty.

Welcome to Japan. Not an uncommon occurrence, better to ask forgiveness after the fact than seek permission first!

9 ( +13 / -4 )

Okinawa may have been a gentleman’s agreement. We’ll return it to you but you let us stay indefinitely and foot part of the costs.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

We are going to need the base to fight China.

6 ( +10 / -4 )

American military will still be there in the year 2045

Good. Better America than China.

14 ( +17 / -3 )

The Japanese are experts on building airstrips on sinking landfills. Just look at Kansai.

8 ( +10 / -2 )

Gov. Tamaki's disapproval of the central government's change of the plan of landfill work should not be the reason why the Henoko new base cannot be completed. The fundamental question is Futenma sits on illegally confiscated private lands. That is, Futenma is an illegal property per se. The U.S. cannot demand a replacement for an illegal property such as this be provided in exchange of its return.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

 "We do not normally disclose boring and other survey results every time they are conducted."

Yes, we definitely would prefer only the exciting survey results.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

lying so much they lie to themselves it's sad

1 ( +5 / -4 )

That statement/excuse from the article, IMO, is something ‘new’ here? - Perhaps it could also be a ‘go-to-disclaimer’ when prosecutors choose not to pursue some, what appear to be ‘cut & dry’, criminal cases in Japan: - “*We do not normally disclose boring results every time.*" -

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Maybe the US military isn't get their spanking new base at Henoko after all!

0 ( +4 / -4 )

The US Military should leave Japan and other countries aswell.

0 ( +7 / -7 )

American military will still be there in the year 2045

More like forever, why should they leave?

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Reinforce it, and move forward, the base will be relocated no matter what, so why all the noise?? japan and the U.S are inseparable partners and need to stay that way for the good of both nations.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

This is very good news.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

I have a sinking feeling that this project will be delayed again.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Maybe the US military isn't get their spanking new base at Henoko after all!

They probably will, they'll just do what the engineers did to Kansai airport and retrofit it, problem solved.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Okinawans are SICK of being the ignored party between Washington and Tokyo.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

Okinawans are SICK of being the ignored party between Washington and Tokyo.

Many do, this is very true, but that's not going to change anytime soon, they just have to deal with it.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Or you can start learning Russian too, while you’re at it.

https://japantoday.com/category/politics/update1-japan-foreign-minister-airs-concerns-over-russian-military-activity

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

They probably will, they'll just do what the engineers did to Kansai airport and retrofit it, problem solved.

There hasn't been a "retrofit" at Kansai. The airport has had a large number of ad-hoc, piecemeal reinforcements such as adding pavement to a runway to raise it, or adding "waterproof" walls around some facilities to prevent flooding from ground seepage, or raising seawalls to prevent flooding from a typhoon tidal surge. The terminal is held up by large hydraulic jacks that have run out of travel and required longer jacks to be installed. Part of the problem was an incorrect assumption about sinkage rates. A number of top universities were consulted to estimate how much the old seabed would sink under the weight of the man made islands and the facilities to be built on them. Kansai engineers used the lower of the several sinkage rates estimated but it now appears the largest of the estimated rates is closer to what is actually being seen. The airport has already sunk further than the 50 year estimate, when sinkage was expected to stabilize, but hasn't. So no there has been no overall solution to the problems at Kansai, only piecemeal whack-a-mole efforts to fix specific urgent problems as they are identified.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

The fundamental question is Futenma sits on illegally confiscated private lands. That is, Futenma is an illegal property per se. The U.S. cannot demand a replacement for an illegal property such as this be provided in exchange of its return.

It's settled, and no one has ever challenged it anywhere. If you think this way, go to Tokyo and file a complaint. You have every right to do it, IF you have a legal standing, but you dont, the court will toss the complaint out. So you complain here instead, and repeat the same things over and over!

4. Land Issues: The Legality of Land Acquisitions

On 5th April 1945, four days after US forces began invading Okinawa Island, Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz issued a directive terminating Japan's administrative, legislative, and judicial powers in Okinawa and declaring it officially under US military occupation.[1] This was in conformity with Article 42 of the Hague Convention on the 'Laws and Customs of War on Land,' of October 1907.[2

2 ( +3 / -1 )

All it takes is more concrete…and taxpayers money…

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

They probably will, they'll just do what the engineers did to Kansai airport and retrofit it, problem solved.

That's the plan. Other than the news about Tamaki not signing, this "news" about the problems of soft ground has been known publicly for at least 2 years now.

This is really old news.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

That's the plan. Other than the news about Tamaki not signing, this "news" about the problems of soft ground has been known publicly for at least 2 years now.

Just as with Kansai Airport, there is no plan. The engineers didn't include a sufficient margin for subsidence in their original design. Kansai has experienced more subsidence than was predicted to occur over 50 years. Worse still the subsidence is uneven. The center of the terminal is sinking faster than the edges for example. Support columns on bridges and under buildings have to be continually shimmed with ever thicker steel plates to keep things level. Jacks under the main terminal have run out of travel and have to be replaced with longer ones.

If the project manager for the Marines is smart he will alter the program to specify a taller landfill to allow for greater subsidence over the expected life of the airfield, and also ought to assume the airfield will have to last twice as long as policymakers think. That will add a lot of cost up front but might reduce costs over the life of the program.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Land Issues: The Legality of Land Acquisitions

On 5th April 1945, four days after US forces began invading Okinawa Island, Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz issued a directive terminating Japan's administrative, legislative, and judicial powers in Okinawa and declaring it officially under US military occupation.[1] This was in conformity with Article 42 of the Hague Convention on the 'Laws and Customs of War on Land,' of October 1907.[2

You do realize the 1951 San Francisco Treaty changed he status of Okinawa and everything on it?

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Yubaru (Today  05:15 am JST),

I assume you have quoted it from a USCAR directive. But your excerpt only mentions how the occupation of Okinawa proceeded in conformity of Article 42 of the Annex of the Hague Convention, completely ignoring Article 46 of it, which prohibits the confiscation of private property.

FYI, Art. 42 says: "Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army." Tell me how Article 42 exonerates the illegality of the confiscation of private lands that actually occurred on occupied Okinawa.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

50 year estimate, when sinkage was expected to stabilize, but hasn't. So no there has been no overall solution to the problems at Kansai, only piecemeal whack-a-mole efforts to fix specific urgent problems as they are identified.

Well, that goes back to my point. 50 years is half of a lifetime so they have time. Either way, the US is not going anywhere.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

You do realize the 1951 San Francisco Treaty changed he status of Okinawa and everything on it?

Yes I am aware, that quote is just a reminder to another poster who repeats the same thing over on all posts about the landfill and Futenma! Thank you!

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Yubaru,

You mean the San Francisco Peace Treaty exonerated the illegality of the U.S. army’s private land confiscation in Okinawa? LOL!

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

However hard you may try, calling white black, the fact remains the same: Futenma sits on illegally confiscated private lands and therefore that Futenma is an illegal facility. The U.S. doesn't have any innate right to demand its replacement be constructed anywhere in Japan (Okinawa) in exchange of its return. Close the base and return the land with no strings attached. Period.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Close the base and return the land immediately with no strings attached. Period.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

The US Armed Forces stationed in Okinawa aren't going anywhere soon.

You can thank the PRC for that.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Tom San,

I am not calling on all U.S. bases in Okinawa to be withdrawn. Stick to the Futenma issue only for now.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

However hard you may try, calling white black, the fact remains the same: Futenma sits on illegally confiscated private lands and therefore that Futenma is an illegal facility. 

Just because you say something does not make it true!

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Close the base and return the land immediately with no strings attached. Period.

When the landfill and associated construction is completed it will! Just wait! Also, no matter how much you regurgitate the same stale discussion, it wont change anything either.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

I don't recall talking to you.

Dont worry, it's an "age" thing and narcistic nature of the poster!

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Close the base and return the land immediately with no strings attached. Period.

That's what you get for brutalizing all of Asia and attacking Pearl Harbor. Nobody forced Japan to attack and/or colonize its neighbors. Now Asia is a mess as a result of that war, Chiang Kai-shek had to waste his forces fighting yours instead of crushing Mao, and to this day the Japanese refuse to atone for their many atrocities. So pardon me all to heck but I have no patience for the whining of some about US bases in Japan. Stop playing the victim when Japan attacked first. Tell your emperor and your prime minister to come to the USS Arizona Memorial and bow down in apology to the men and women their namesakes killed on 7 December 1941. Do the same in China, Korea, Vietnam, Malaysia, New Guinea and Singapore. Go see the graveyards of dead young Americans killed by your namesakes to stop them from taking all of Asia over. Kicking the IJA off Okinawa was the bloodiest battle of the Pacific for US forces. For the US Navy it was a bigger meat grinder than Pearl Harbor with over three times the loss of life, mostly due to suicidal nut jobs diving their airplanes on US ships. Japan was a horrible enemy to fight and they left Asia a big mess politically and socially, problems that persist to this day. Consider yourself lucky those are US Marines and not their Chinese counterparts, and stop whining. Oh, and a sincere heartfelt apology would be nice too.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Desert Tortoise,

You seem to say all this misdemeanor of confiscating private lands by the U.S. occupation army was the end result of the IPA's atrocity that took place in occupied Asian countries and also its Pearl Harbor attack that triggered the Pacific War. In other words, this is retaliation against Japan for starting the war.

But the U.S. says its military presence is in accord with the Security Treaty. Do you consider then that that treaty is a farce or a gimmick to camouflage the reality that is retaliation and occupation?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

But the U.S. says its military presence is in accord with the Security Treaty. 

So does the Japanese government!

4 ( +4 / -0 )

You seem to say all this misdemeanor of confiscating private lands by the U.S. occupation army was the end result of the IPA's atrocity that took place in occupied Asian countries and also its Pearl Harbor attack that triggered the Pacific War. In other words, this is retaliation against Japan for starting the war.

Japanese invasions and colonizations and subsequent WWII are the reasons Asia is the security mess it is today. Japan adds insult to injury by refusing to atone for its past and for teaching lies to its children in school. Japan has an obligation to host US forces until the many threats created by the resolution of that war are no longer a threat to the US, South Korea or Japan. Japan created the mess, now suck it up and deal with the outcome.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

You do realise that was 75 years ago and since 1945,

Maybe so but Japan has never signed a treaty with Russia, only an armistice so technically they remain at war, Korea remains divided and the Korean War is technically not over just another armistice, China is also divided in a way with Taiwan having a democratic government and the mainland ruled by communists, those communists in China still burn for revenge and covet Japanese land Russia is always a threat to Japanese sovereignty. So the pot is still bubbling in Asia thanks to Japans wars against and colonizations of its Asian neighbors. Reality, not dreams.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

The U.S. cannot demand a replacement for an illegal property such as this be provided in exchange of its return.

actually theyre not demanding theyre there at the invitation of the federal government . once Henoko is finished , Futenma will be returned to Okinawa as agreed by multiple different administrations for the last 30yrs. the longer the delay the longer itll take to return Futenma. The relocation will go ahead , whether Japanese like it or not. downvote all you like, anybody want to place bets this will happen!?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Hey, Desert Tortoise: Yanqui Go Home. You seem to be living in the wrong country and locked into a fevered imagination that is jingoistic at best.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

The sooner the base disappears, the better

1 ( +2 / -1 )

The sooner the base disappears, the better - whether it sinks, is swallowed up by rising seas or is never completed is just fine. The US empire is more menacing than the Roman Empire. A thousand times more dangerous than China, ten thousand times more dangerous than North Korea.

The ludicrous posits, that China is going to invade Okinawa or Japan are delusional spoutings by right-wing crackpots who wish to recreate a feudal Japanese empire ruled over by elements of the atavistic conservatives who despise any inkling of democracy among the peasantry.

China poses no actual threat to Japan except in the hallucinatory imaginings of those who suffer from mental illness.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

The U.S. cannot demand a replacement for an illegal property such as this be provided in exchange of its return.

actually theyre not demanding theyre there at the invitation of the federal government . once Henoko is finished , Futenma will be returned to Okinawa as agreed by multiple different administrations for the last 30yrs. the longer the delay the longer itll take to return Futenma. The relocation will go ahead , whether Japanese like it or not. downvote all you like, anybody want to place bets this will happen!?

Japan is just keeping it's side of the agreement it made with the US regarding a replacement facility. The US is not "demanding" anything. The poster you replied to knows all of what I am referring to as well. He just doesn't like it.

There is nothing illegal about any of the bases in Okinawa or Japan. But all he can talk about is Futenma... lol!

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Yubaru (Today  01:24 pm JST),

So does the Japanese government!

Indeed. The Security Treaty was signed bilaterally. And the US. forces are supposed to be stationed here to defend Japan. In exchange, Japan is supposed to provide bases with U.S. forces.

However, Desert Tortoise suggests the U.S. forces are here as retaliation against Japan for the atrocities IJA committed and for the war it started by attacking Pearl Harbor. If that is true, then the said security treaty can be deemed as a farce and shenanigans.

Futenma's status as an illegal property doesn't disappear. Thus, the U.S. can't demand for a replacement in exchange for its return.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

The same can be said with America and North Korea/China.

Normal folks typically quote what OTHER people say and not themselves!

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Futenma's status as an illegal property doesn't disappear. Thus, the U.S. can't demand for a replacement in exchange for its return.

It's not illegal, you know it, but you cant accept it! So you repeat the same stuff over and over and over again.

You also know the US has never demanded a replacement for Futenma. Japan is just following it's treaty obligations. Again something you dont like, so you keep crying about it here.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Yubaru,

It's not illegal, you know it, but you cant accept it! So you repeat the same stuff over and over and over again.

Yes, it's a legal matter. If it's not, as you say, what is it? A legitimate spoil in light of Article 46 of the Annex of the Hague Convention? Wasn’t it you who brought up a putative USCAR document to support your claim that Futenma isn't an illegal property? You tried to refute me in legal terms but with no avail.

Yes, I repeat the same question time and time again until you give me a satisfactory and reasonable argument and answer.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Yes, I repeat the same question time and time again until you give me a satisfactory and reasonable argument and answer.

You have been refuted for at least the past 10 years, you got your answer back then.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Yubaru,

What reasonable arguments have you made against me in the past 10 years? All you have done was nonsense and parting shots.

Seriously, what's your reasoning why Futenma isn't an illegal facility and why its function must be relocated to Henoko?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

This Henoko Relocation Project has been based on lies and deceit from the J-Govt. from the very beginning. The biggest lie that the J-Govt. has told is that the U.S. Marines on Okinawa and MCAS Futenma are essential to National Security. The U.S. Marines on Okinawa are a very minor player in the defense of Japan with the U.S. Air Force, U.S. Army, U.S. Navy and the JSDF on Okinawa all being more essential to the defense of Japan than the Marines . If all of the Marines left Okinawa tomorrow, it would not hamper the U.S. Military in Okinawa from defending Japan.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Seriously, what's your reasoning why Futenma isn't an illegal facility and why its function must be relocated to Henoko?

It's not "reasoning" and it's not my opinion.

If you THINK you have a leg to stand on, take your case to the Hague, the World Court, anywhere in the mainstream Japanese media, and see what kind of response you get.

You already know, no one will listen to you, as you have no case. It's all been settled long ago.

It's a "moot point" !

0 ( +1 / -1 )

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