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Japan protests to China over ambassador's remarks on Taiwan

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Taiwan as we know it today was founded by people with close ties to organized crime, i.e. the Green Gang, whom Chiang Kai shek was closely associated with.

A journalist who wrote an expose on this was murdered in the states by hitmen sent by the Taiwanese government, which ruffled some feathers in Washington at the time.

And of course Japan is a former colonial occupier of Taiwan, so there's another reason China isn't so happy about Japan implying they're prepared to provide military support to the US.

-8 ( +5 / -13 )

China is also another former colonial occupier of Taiwan (Qing Dynasty, iirc).

8 ( +10 / -2 )

Taiwan as we know it today was founded by people with close ties to organized crime, i.e. the Green Gang, whom Chiang Kai shek was closely associated with.

The original people of Taiwan are Pacific Islanders, not Chinese.

10 ( +11 / -1 )

Taiwan as we know it today was founded by people with close ties to organized crime, i.e. the Green Gang, whom Chiang Kai shek was closely associated with.

And the PRC has throughout its entire existence been led by the criminals in the PRC.

9 ( +12 / -3 )

*in the CCP.

6 ( +9 / -3 )

It’s true. If Japan gets involved in the war, missiles will land in Okinawa, Yokosuka, Misawa etc. The best thing is status quo.

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

For a career diplomat to make a declaration so easily taken as a threat there is no other realistic explanation but that this was the purpose in the first place.

8 ( +8 / -0 )

For a career diplomat to make a declaration so easily taken as a threat there is no other realistic explanation but that this was the purpose in the first place.

Every year since Xi Jinping came to power Chinese, cough cough, "diplomacy" sounds increasingly like that of North Korea. Must be that teeth to lips closeness thing Mao used to talk about.

8 ( +10 / -2 )

if Japan linked Taiwan to its own security, the Japanese people "would be dragged into the fire."

The Chinese Ambassador stated a fact. If Taiwan -a renegade Chinese territory - is a “security issue “ to Japan therefore will evoke a Japanese military response , then it’s obvious, China will hit Japan.

-5 ( +6 / -11 )

Cogito Ergo SumToday  09:13 am JST

if Japan linked Taiwan to its own security, the Japanese people "would be dragged into the fire."

The Chinese Ambassador stated a fact. If Taiwan -a renegade Chinese territory - is a “security issue “ to Japan therefore will evoke a Japanese military response , then it’s obvious, China will hit Japan.

Another "fact" is that if China "hits Japan" Article 5 of the US-JPN Mutual Dense Treaty will be invoked and China will have started a war with the United States. They had better be prepared for the consequences.

Taiwan is not a renegade Chinese territory. It was an island once colonized by the Qing Dynasty, and handed over to Japan in 1895. After WWII ended in 1945 Japan handed Taiwan back to the legal representative Chinese government at the time, the ROC. In whose hands Taiwan remains today. The CCP did not come to power on Mainland China until 1949.

It is China alone that is upsetting the status quo. And threatening war and destabilizing the region.

7 ( +14 / -7 )

Well countries meddling in other countries' affairs are extremely inappropriate

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

Doubt any country will go to war with China over Taiwan issue.

-7 ( +1 / -8 )

Dear Japan..

Do not get into problems that do not correspond to you, have good relations with China and do not interfere in their affairs as a good lapdog of the US..

Taiwan is chinese province and in the correct time China will claim it..

Let China be China..

-11 ( +3 / -14 )

TokyoLivingToday  01:48 pm JST

Dear Japan..

Do not get into problems that do not correspond to you, have good relations with China and do not interfere in their affairs as a good lapdog of the US..

Taiwan is chinese province and in the correct time China will claim it..

Let China be China..

Are you living in China? If not, why not? Sounds like you'd be happier there.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

Dear Japan..

Do not get into problems that do not correspond to you, have good relations with China and do not interfere in their affairs as a good lapdog of the US..

Taiwan is chinese province and in the correct time China will claim it..

Let China be China..

Dear China..

Do not think you can isolate nations so you can intimidate or invade one on one. Nobody is going to allow that.

Taiwan is an independent and sovereign nation that has not been part of mainland China since the revolution broke the mainland away from the legitimate rulers ROC who continue to rule Taiwan. Taiwan is not owned by, or part of the CCP run mainland.

China can be China as long as it refrains from invading and subjugating other people and nations, including Taiwan.

Taiwan has friends, more than China does. Keep that in mind.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

Taiwan has friends, 

Haha really?

Who?

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

Taiwan is an independent and sovereign nation that has not been part of mainland China since the revolution broke the mainland away from the legitimate rulers ROC who continue to rule Taiwan. Taiwan is not owned by, or part of the CCP run mainland.

Why do you people continue to delude yourselves?

Repeating that over and over won't make it true

-5 ( +4 / -9 )

Another "fact" is that if China "hits Japan" Article 5 of the US-JPN Mutual Dense Treaty will be invoked and China will have started a war with the United States. They had better be prepared for the consequences.

The scenario would be that the US and China would already be at war over Taiwan and so it isn’t dragging the US into and starting a war with the US but dragging Japan into the war by virtue of US bases in Japan. The conflict with Taiwan would bring direct confrontation with the US and indirect confrontation with Japan.

No one is losing sleep over this. China will not go to war against Taiwan. It’s like saying the US would go to war against the UK or Canada. It just won’t happen.

Also because they’re not declaring independence. The ruling party DPP control the judicial, executive and legislature in Taiwan, and they could but they’re not declaring independence. Until the red line is crossed there will be no war.

-9 ( +1 / -10 )

The conflict with Taiwan would bring direct confrontation with the US and indirect confrontation with Japan.

Someone just asked why direct and not indirect, well because Americans guarantee they would come to Taiwan’s aid unlike in Ukraine where it is only sending military aid.

Taiwan is more important to the US than Ukraine. So important that they would commit its navy to fight and defend Taiwan.

Ukraine? For some reason, it’s not worth the trouble.

-7 ( +1 / -8 )

There is no reason to rush into things when you can play the long game and win. China is ESPECIALLY good with the long game.

The US is already bored with Hong Kong and Tibet. What is the US doing about the alleged genocide of millions of Uyghurs in Xinjiang? Nothing. What are they doing about the spy balloon? Nothing. It used to make a clamor about Myanmar too.

China knows if it just waits, the US will distract itself with something else. In the mean time, it’s trade and economics and technology. This is the best war and competition. No blood is shed.

-9 ( +1 / -10 )

Do not get into problems that do not correspond to you, have good relations with China and do not interfere in their affairs as a good lapdog of the US..

There're no good equal relations with current CCP China, either you chose what Korea used to be like or not....if you know what Xi talked to Obama in whispers

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Unlike China, Taiwan is a democratic country, and their sovereignty and will must be respected.

If Taiwan were to be occupied by China, it would be a matter of life and death as China would block the oil import route that supports Japan.

The world should not tolerate China's laggard imperialism, and should unite against China.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

*Taiwan is not a renegade Chinese territory. It was an island once colonized by the Qing Dynasty, and handed over to Japan in 1895. After WWII ended in 1945 Japan handed Taiwan back to the legal representative Chinese government at the time, the ROC. In whose hands Taiwan remains today. The CCP did not come to power on Mainland China until 1949.*

@ Ossan America.

I must admit to learning a lot from you @ Ossan... my respects.

The KMT ( Kai Shek ) having been put in a military dire straits crossed the strait to Taiwan FROM the mainland. Both The KMT and the Nationalist knew themselves to be Chinese but the question was who was the legitimate ruler of China.

China ceded Taiwan to Japan in the treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895. If Taiwan wasn’t part of China then it should not have been an item on that menu.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

As for the military articles , they are just that- articles. The results of a military kinetic confrontation are usually at the end. Japan itself fought how many countries in WW2?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

The CCP are sh*t scared of Japan and will avoid armed conflict with Japan more than they would with Australia or the UK. The Chinese would be better off keeping good relations with Japan. Any armed attack on Japan and the whole country would get armed and ditch the GSDF for a military proper. The US, the UK and Australia would jump straight in to ally themselves with Japan.

Forget your talk about Taiwan. Taiwan is independent Taiwan, not Chinese Taipei.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@ what ol’ JB

Wars are expensive.

That’s very true. China is the Biggest trading partner of these adversarial countries.

Why at all are they coalescing and beating drums of war against China ? It beats me.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

So then why has China been trespassing into Japanese territorial waters every few days for years ?

Incorrect. The Chinese trespass into contested waters and skirt in and out of Japan's EEZ. Not exactly a brave dominant invasion.

The C.C.P are not stupid - they will go nowhere near any armed conflict with Japan. The more aggressive China is towards independent Taiwan the more the Japanese will set to defend Taiwan. And that will be the end of any invasion plans into Taiwan.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Only a handful of nations recognize Taiwanese independence.

A "handful" including the USA, the European Union, Australia, and the UK. Not bad for a handful.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

It's estimated that 1 million Taiwanese have residences on the Mainland. Two way trade is nearly $300 billion. Citizens on both sides of the Taiwan Strait speak and read Chinese and follow many of the same customs. The two sides will eventually figure it out, the final chapter of the imperialist period in China.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

It's estimated that 1 million Taiwanese have residences on the Mainland. Two way trade is nearly $300 billion. Citizens on both sides of the Taiwan Strait speak and read Chinese and follow many of the same customs.

Which says nothing about whether the majority want reunification.

The two sides will eventually figure it out, the final chapter of the imperialist period in China.

They'll figure it out by continuing on separately or the PRC will do a lot of damage to itself taking out Taiwan.

the final chapter of the imperialist period in China

I thought we were on communism now, but it is just as corrupt as the old imperial system.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Taiwan is an independently governing breakaway province of China.

Which says nothing about whether this is the end state that should continue and it should continue. Also the criminal CCP doesn't represent all of China.

End of story !

0 ( +0 / -0 )

China tells Japan, don't support Taiwan.

North Korea tells Japan, don't support South Korea.

I'm in favor of helping Taiwan, which is pro-Japan, a good friend, and a good neighbor.

All my interactions with Taiwanese people, men or women, have beeen very positive.

I can't say the same thing about S.Korea, a country with no honor, bunch of liars, can't keep a promise made or agreement signed! Korea/Koreans, doesn't matter if it's from North or South, equally untrustworthy and shady!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

After WWII ended in 1945 Japan handed Taiwan back to the legal representative Chinese government at the time, the ROC. 

The "handing of Taiwan back" done through treaties and international law, and that would be the Treaty of San Francisco. Nowhere in the Treaty of San Francisco does it say Taiwan would be returned to the Republic of Taiwan.

I must admit to learning a lot from you @ Ossan... my respects.

The KMT ( Kai Shek ) having been put in a military dire straits crossed the strait to Taiwan FROM the mainland. Both The KMT and the Nationalist knew themselves to be Chinese but the question was who was the legitimate ruler of China.

China ceded Taiwan to Japan in the treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895. If Taiwan wasn’t part of China then it should not have been an item on that menu.

Your comment on Ossan is just courtesy. The situation is not as Ossan described and he won't be able to back that up with the Treat of San Francisco which Japan signed. It is exactly as you described: at the time there was a question of who represented China and there was disagreement and the status was undetermined.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The Treaty of San Franciso does not state Taiwan is returned to the Republic of China. It only says,

"(b) Japan renounces all right, title and claim to Formosa and the Pescadores."

It also says,

"(c) Japan renounces all right, title and claim to the Kurile Islands, and to that portion of Sakhalin and the islands adjacent to it over which Japan acquired sovereignty as a consequence of the Treaty of Portsmouth of September 5, 1905. 1 "

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Citizens on both sides of the Taiwan Strait speak and read Chinese 

Taiwanese Mandarin and that of the mainland are different and their writing is very different. Taiwan uses classical Chinese characters while on the mainland Mao's simplified New Pinyon is used. There are also significant pockets of Cantonese and Hakka speakers on the mainland while Shanghai has practically its own unique language.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

It's estimated that 1 million Taiwanese have residences on the Mainland. 

Would you be so kind as to tell us where you get that number from? According to the data released by Taiwan's General Accounting Office, 242,000 people went to work in mainland China in 2020, down 153,000 from the previous year, a decrease for the seventh consecutive year. China and the Chinese themselves have become increasingly hostile towards Taiwanese living among them.

https://worldcrunch.com/culture-society/taiwanese-in-mainland-china

1 ( +1 / -0 )

"(c) Japan renounces all right, title and claim to the Kurile Islands, and to that portion of Sakhalin and the islands adjacent to it over which Japan acquired sovereignty as a consequence of the Treaty of Portsmouth of September 5, 1905. 1 "

A vague statement, not written with Japanese input, and designed to encourage theft.

The "handing of Taiwan back" done through treaties and international law, and that would be the Treaty of San Francisco. Nowhere in the Treaty of San Francisco does it say Taiwan would be returned to the Republic of Taiwan.

Countries aren't prevented from changing their names just to ensure treaties aren't invalidated.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Here you go. Certainly the numbers have gone down because of COVID and other factors. With the economies revving up again numbers will build back up.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-14/nearly-one-million-expatriate-taiwanese-in-china-to-forgo-vote/7089800

0 ( +0 / -0 )

You mean, Mr Wu, the fire that China would start with an illegal invasion of Taiwan, which would then rapidly spread to the entire region, then likely the rest of the world? I don't think Japan could avoid that. Neither could countries like the Philippines, which have already stated this:

What illegality? Since 1971, the world (except for maybe 10 tiny countries) recognize that the People's Republic of China is the rightful government of China, that there is only one China (or at least, they don't "challenge" that position) and the territory of China includes Taiwan. As the sovereign, ultimately the People's Republic of China must have the final right to retake it, including by force, since one of the attributes of sovereignty is the monopoly of state violence.

Rule of law means that one must recognize the legal weakness of their own position. It's very desirable to Japan and the United States, likely the world as a whole, for Taiwan to be a "de facto" country, but de jure it is not. The People's Republic of China, for mutual benefit, is willing to extralegally suffer Taipei's appropriation of jurisdiction, at least for the moment which can be extended for a long time, as long as its final sovereignty is recognized and unthreatened.

It was an island once colonized by the Qing Dynasty, and handed over to Japan in 1895.

In other words, as of 1895, Japan recognizes Taiwan as something that China has the right to hand over, thus recognizing the Chinese as the sovereigns of the island. Taiwan thus belongs to whoever happens to be the ruling regime of China, and since 1971 that was the PRC, as per the relevant UN resolution.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

At present, China is relatively stable compared to the United States. The idea of "unlawful and aggressive" proposed by "accelerationism" is actually a conspiracy of the United States.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

I miss President Trump because he led the United States to accelerate its development and its economy regressed for decades

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

As the sovereign, ultimately the People's Republic of China must have the final right to retake it, including by force, since one of the attributes of sovereignty is the monopoly of state violence.

More like the right to continue a civil war 70 years old. Call it what it is rather than cloak it as something justified.

It's very desirable to Japan and the United States, likely the world as a whole, for Taiwan to be a "de facto" country, but de jure it is not.

De facto, the PRC controls nothing on Taiwan but a word on a document.

The People's Republic of China, for mutual benefit, is willing to extralegally suffer Taipei's appropriation of jurisdiction, at least for the moment which can be extended for a long time, as long as its final sovereignty is recognized and unthreatened.

It's going to have to extend that forever or get burned in the process. And you can call it "extralegally suffering" but the fact is the PRC never controlled Taiwan in the first place.

Taiwan thus belongs to whoever happens to be the ruling regime of China, and since 1971 that was the PRC, as per the relevant UN resolution.

Sorry, but Taiwan doesn't acknowledge that garbage resolution and frankly neither should anybody else. Nobody has the right to tell Taiwan who their ruler is.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Cogito Ergo SumMay 11  09:59 pm JST

Taiwan is **not** a renegade Chinese territory. It was an island once colonized by the Qing Dynasty, and handed over to Japan in 1895. After WWII ended in 1945 Japan handed Taiwan back to the legal representative Chinese government at the time, the ROC. In whose hands Taiwan remains today. The CCP did not come to power on Mainland China until 1949.

@ Ossan America.

China ceded Taiwan to Japan in the treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895. If Taiwan wasn’t part of China then it should not have been an item on that menu.

Taiwan was a colony of the Qing Dynasty which was ceded to Japan in 1895. The Qing Dynasty collapsed in 1912 and was replaced by the Republic of China. There were territories that were part of the Qing Dynasty that did not transfer to the ROC, notably territories that became Russian.

In other words, just because a territory was once owned/controlled by a previous government of China, it does not automatically follow that a later government of China has rights to them.

In the case of Taiwan, the island has evolved as a nation of it's own completely independent from CCP rule.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

quercetumToday  08:14 am JST

After WWII ended in 1945 Japan handed Taiwan back to the legal representative Chinese government at the time, the ROC. 

The "handing of Taiwan back" done through treaties and international law, and that would be the Treaty of San Francisco. Nowhere in the Treaty of San Francisco does it say Taiwan would be returned to the Republic of Taiwan.

There was no Republic of Taiwan nor is there one now.

I must admit to learning a lot from you @ Ossan... my respects.

*The KMT ( Kai Shek ) having been put in a military dire straits crossed the strait to Taiwan FROM the mainland. Both The KMT and the Nationalist knew themselves to be Chinese but the question was *who was the legitimate ruler of China.

China ceded Taiwan to Japan in the treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895. If Taiwan wasn’t part of China then it should not have been an item on that menu.

Your comment on Ossan is just courtesy. The situation is not as Ossan described and he won't be able to back that up with the Treat of San Francisco which Japan signed. It is exactly as you described: at the time there was a question of who represented China and there was disagreement and the status was undetermined.

The 1951 Treaty of San Francisco does neither dictates nor establishes to whom Taiwan should be returned. That was established at the 1943 Cairo Decllaration which established that Japan, when defeated, shall return  Manchuria, Taiwan(Formosa), and The Pescadores to the Republic of China. The Cairo Declaration was attended and signed by Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek for the Republic of China.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@ Ossan,

The Qing dynasty was succeded majorly by ROC under Sun Yatsen who’s Kai Shek’s father in law. Administative systems change but the people are the same.

When a Japanese boat ran aground in Taiwan ( circa 1875?) and a number of them beheaded by Taiwanese indeginous head- hunters, the Japanese asked for compensation from who ? You guessed it! The Qing, proving recognition of ( administrative) ownership. Even the then British diplomat commented on this.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Beheadings of Japanese sailors happened in 1871.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

@Cogito Ergo Sum

In 1871, Japanese castaways were killed by Taiwanese natives, and Japan lodged a strong protest against the Chinese government, then known as Qing, and demanded compensation.

The Japanese government lodged a strong protest against the Qing empire, but the response was that the natives were "humans outside the control of the state."

After that, after the Japanese government sent troops to Taiwan, the Chinese government finally responded to Japan's compensation. Without Japan's dispatch of troops, the Chinese government would not have recognized Taiwan as its own country.

Until 1971, Taiwan was a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, but lost its position in protest after China regained its rights in the United Nations.

This is purely a political move and does not recognize China's sovereignty over Taiwan.

After the war, Taiwan was occupied by the Nationalist Party of China and was hostile to the Communist Party of mainland China. If people living in Taiwan say they are Taiwanese, not Chinese, their wishes must be respected.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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