Japan-Russia talks bring no progress on island dispute

Wow, another dispute that goes back far into history. I must admit, this one is a bit more tricky -since the geography is not so clear cut.

“We cannot accept the protests that have been heard from Tokyo about this,” Lavrov said. “Russian authorities are responsible for improving the socioeconomic situation in this part of the Russian Federation and we will continue to do this.”

OK, I finally get it; they're "Russian islands." Fine. Along with possession comes responsibility. So, Mr. Gemba, as I nationalized citizen/taxpayer I am asking you to refrain from any more economic assistance to these terroritories. We in Hokkaido know that there have been MILLIONS of US dollars worth of yen shipped over to the Kurils in response to unofficial promises of getting the islands back. We now know these promises are bogus and should be treated as such. SIgn a treaty with Russia, start trading with them. And the next time there is an natural disaster in the Kurils send resuce teams and other funds----we should never forget how well the world treated us after Fukushima--- but stop the consistent flow of money that has been the main source of economic development. Let the Russians do it.

Did you really expect any progress on this? The big brave Russians waited until after Japan surrendered before taking over those islands and are never going to leave.

Russia, China allied to coordinate to squeeze Japan in a corner! Now Japan is really troubled by her own 'land grabbing' plan with two bloody noses

I believe that amid conditions of serious changes in the strategic situation in the Asia-Pacific region, the need to resolve this problem is becoming greater and greater

Obviously Japan is talking wars to China!

This proves it talking is no good. Next step sanctions against Russia. Trade restrictions followed by more if it does not work. Japan has to be prevented from becoming addicted to Russian oil/gas at all costs!

Russia, China allied to coordinate to squeeze Japan in a corner! Now Japan is really troubled by her own 'land grabbing' plan with two bloody noses

Land grabbing? This islands were grabbed from Japan by Russia. They are just trying to get these islands back.

The same thing happened to countries like Poland and Czechoslovakia after World War II. And they weren't even members of the Axis. Japan lost the war, but keeps on acting like it didn't.

They're both going through the motions with these talks for domestic consumption (especially Japan). But IF Russia were to agree to a deal (and that's extremely doubtful), Japan would have to make huge business and political concessions.

YuriOtaniJul. 29, 2012 - 09:10AM JST

This proves it talking is no good. Next step sanctions against Russia. Trade restrictions followed by more if it does not work. Japan has to be prevented from becoming addicted to Russian oil/gas at all costs!

You're always good for a laugh with your humorous posts. You, like a lot of the Japanese, have this mindset that Japan is essential for the world.

It's Japan that needs the world, not the other way around. It needs the Chinese markets, It needs Russian natural resources and marine products. It needs the $10,000,000,000 Korean trade surplus it has with Korea's high tech companies, who are proving a lot more successful than their Japanese counterparts.

This might come as a shock to you, but Japan can retreat to another sakoku, but the world will successfully progress along. China's economy wil continue to grow. Russia will develop. The TPP will get signed and Korea will continue to find new markets for their products.

@YuriOtani

Japan has to be prevented from becoming addicted to Russian oil/gas at all costs!

I agree. Less dependance on oil, by any nation, would lead to a cleaner living. I would hope anyway.

@Dog

You, like a lot of the Japanese, have this mindset that Japan is essential for the world.

Don't make blanket statements. Back up your post with some sensible data or proof.

A+b/a=a/b≡?Jul. 29, 2012 - 11:22AM JST

Don't make blanket statements. Back up your post with some sensible data or proof.

Since when did you become moderator?

If you had lived in Japan for any period of time, you'd know that blanket statements were the modus operandi of Japanese society.

@Dog: Stay on topic. You have no clue as to my ethnicity... do you?

japan lost World War Two. They need to get that through their heads. Losing a war comes with huge consequences. They're lucky they were able to keep most of their land.

This article is not at all how I perceived the news conveyed on the tv. While Russia stayed the course with their agenda. Japan was very positive about the discussions.

'“I believe that amid conditions of serious changes in the strategic situation in the Asia-Pacific region, the need to resolve this problem is becoming greater and greater,” he said in an apparent reference to China’s growing might.'

And yet Japan also disputes islands with China as well. Tsk tsk. Now, if you want 'agreement', Gemba, you need to be willing to compromise, not simply make demands and ask for pity.

YuriOtani: "This proves it talking is no good. Next step sanctions against Russia."

Japan NEEDS Russian oil, especially given the nuclear crisis and lack of energy as a result. Sanctions against Russia would prove to accomplish nothing but hurting Japan more than it did Russia, while Medvedev and Putin just laughed and waited for Japan to come, tail between legs, back to the table asking for more fuel. Japan can't even wean itself off IRANIAN fuel and instead begs the US not to sanction its banks if it continues to import it. They ARE dependent on Russian fuel... they're not 'becoming' dependent.

The islands are Russian, now and likely forever more. Japan needs to deal with that fact -- particularly since half the reasons for their claims to the islands they are fighting China about are reasons why Russia has a better claim to the Kuriles.

And unlike Japan, Russia takes no guff... when ships enter their territory the Japanese are immediately taken and the ships confiscated, no arguments. Hell, Russia's even fired on them as warning! What can Japan do? Well, Yuri knows they have to rely on the US forces as a deterrent.

KariHaruka: "Land grabbing? This islands were grabbed from Japan by Russia. They are just trying to get these islands back."

Spoils of war. Perhaps Japan should have thought a little more in the past, or at least past offers to have two of the four back instead of taking the same stubborn, nationalistic stance that lost them the islands to begin with.

The Russians are not giving up the northern islands. Russia will string Japan along with talks to get favorable trade deals and assistance in economic developments. The USSR was doing this to Japan since the '70, now Russia and Japan still haven't learned the hard truth.

Germany lost Prussia after WW2 , it's like Japan losing Honshu. Consider yourself lucky because the US uses Japan as an unsinkable aircraft carrier against the soon to be communist China and spread a " protective " wing over Japan. Move on, those islands are gone. Get a development deal with Russia and at least some money can be made.

@ samwatters

as I nationalized citizen/taxpayer I am asking you to refrain from any more economic assistance to these terroritories. We in Hokkaido know that there have been MILLIONS of US dollars worth of yen shipped over to the Kurils in response to unofficial promises of getting the islands back.

in response to unofficial promises of getting the islands back. ???? Sorry guys...it's not serious ... Russian people strongly opposed any idea to give out these islands...

it's better to forget .......

That is Japanese theater for USA. Japan got Okinawa from USA not for zero pay. USA cracked own constitution, territorial integrity and got Okinawa to Japan. Japan have commitments for USA: bad relationship with Russia that based around Kurils. But now USA drop Japan for security and use Okinawa for own tasks and not defence Okinawa part - Senkaku.

Japanese politics created many problems and they don't know how solve that.

@Harry_GattoJul. 29, 2012 - 07:47AM JST

Did you really expect any progress on this? The big brave Russians waited until after Japan surrendered before taking over those islands and are never going to leave.

One brave Japanese created unit 731 and save it after 15 august, also that brave Japanese was traitor to kamikadze that death for him.

One brave USA president was test nuclear bomb on victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

BessonovYan what about the hundreds of thousands of Japanese the Russians killed at the end of the war? Japan should not import any Russian Oil/Gas, gee doesn't anyone learn from history? Russians are liars, looked at what happened to the Ukraine? Get hooked on Russian gas and then they raise the price. Oberst any deal with Russia benefits Russia. Japan has to use less oil/gas, bring the atomics online. Then start building the next generation of power plant. Japan can not afford to make any deal with Russia.

It seems to me Russia does not want peace, very well. Let them sell the oil/gas to China or India and it is time for trade sanctions. Peace at any price is also called unconditional surrender, NEVER AGAIN! Japan needs to mind its own business but defend our shores against the invader.

YuriOtani

BessonovYan what about the hundreds of thousands of Japanese the Russians killed at the end of the war?

Yeah what about them Yuri? Really, what about them. If you are that concerned about lives lost then maybe you should ask what of the millions killed by your aggression? Oh l know it wasnt you it was your ancestors, you refuse to apologize for their actions and its time for Russia to move on right? Well they have your islands because of Japans actions and no one else's so l suggest Japan either moves on with life and gets over it or take what Russia is offering and says thank you very much and moves on.

Why do you support the red menace? The cold war never ended and once again there are Russian bombers off the coast of Japan and America. If the Russians attack either the ABMs or the Early Warning network, the Americans would have to launch. We are only 30 minutes from war and atomic war.

Why Russia has talks with Japan confuses me. They only say "get over it", why bother to have talks?

YuriOtani

Why Russia has talks with Japan confuses me. They only say "get over it", why bother to have talks?

Seems they have been taking lessons of you Japanese. With the whole get over it attitude hey? Love it

YuriOtaniJul. 30, 2012 - 08:29AM JST

Why Russia has talks with Japan confuses me. They only say "get over it", why bother to have talks?

I think if you take note, it's not the Russians who want the talks, it's the japanese. Genba has been asking for months for talks and what he do, when he gets them? H e throws a little tizzy fit with the usual ;the 4 islands are ours.

I think the Russians have come to realize a long time ago that discussions with Japan are like discussing with an 8 year old.

The latest, which I read elsewhere is that Japan wants to accept the 1956 agreement, which gives them 2 of the islands but......... it also wants the other 2 back.

Go figure the intellect behind that move.

"in response to unofficial promises of getting the islands back. ???? Sorry guys...it's not serious ... Russian people strongly opposed any idea to give out these islands... it's better to forget ......."

@Olegek. That's fine. I have given up hope that those islands will become official Japanese terriorty again. But I also hope you understand we in Hokkaido do not want to fund the lives of your citizens on those islands anymore. I have been to the islands a few times and the Russians there have often said that without Hokkaido assistance they would be in serious trouble. The islands are now Russia, so is the responsibility. I hope one day Japan and Russia can put this behind, a peace treaty can be signed, trade improved and brighter days looked forward to.

Dog, I agree with you the time for talking is over. The Spineless in the National government need to learn this fact. Time for Japan to deploy Pac III missiles in the North and deploy extra squadrons of fighters. Second we need to restrict the movement of Russian ships and planes in our defense zones. If they enter them, a warning than shoot them down or sink them. Remember do not feed the Russian Bear!

@YuriOtani:

I see you're doing the ole' sabber rattling. Just for argument sake, suppose Japan was to lose a war with Russia that you seem to so eagerly want? What would you do then? Especially if the end result was losing more territory in addition to not getting back the territory you went to war over in the first place?

@ samwattersJul. 30, 2012 - 12:26PM JST

Are you know difference between terms of 'help', 'blackmail' and 'payment'? If i right understand you, you don't worried about people on Kuril islands. You worried about your payment?

"If i right understand you, you don't worried about people on Kuril islands. You worried about your payment?"

@BessonovYan. Are you suggesting that people in Hokkaido are responsible for the Russians living in the Kurils?

@YuriOtaniJul. 31, 2012 - 05:22AM JST

You know that after 15 august 1945 really Japan stay like colony of USA. I told to you many times that Kurils is non-freezable gate to Pacific ocean. We can not see how USA build military bases on Kurils.

That is normal balance what not create very big problems for people of Japan and Russia. Real security of people is more important than all judicial papers and political emotions.

May be you not find your inside balance because your mind not freedom form emotions. I recommended to you TOHO films with Raizo Ichikawa "Shinobi no mono".

BessonovYan, then there will be no peace treaty, ever! What else does Russia have to offer? Soon they will steal what is left of Japanese investment. I do not trust the Russian government. They have broken every treaty ever signed with Japan. No northern territories, no peace treaty! Russia can sell its gas and oil to China.

What security tovarisch? With Russian forces next to the home islands how can there be security for Japan? Russia broke the non aggression treaty to get some of the spoils as the war in the Pacific ended. Why will they honor any new agreements?

A strategic partnership between Russia and Japan clearly has its merits. But what are the costs, and is it acceptable? Until the Kuril dispute is resolved, Russians and Japanese will be inhibited from proceeding further. Japan’s differences with China, North Korea and South Korea have presented an opening for repairing relations with Russia. In fact, a closer relationship with Russia would help improve Japan’s ties with China and Korea by demonstrating its willingness to compromise on lingering issues from the World War II.

@YuriOtaniJul. 31, 2012 - 07:52AM JST

Are you sure that four LITTLE islands can be as spoils?! That is not spoils! That is instrument for security and balance in the world!

@samwattersJul. 31, 2012 - 06:44AM JST

@BessonovYan. Are you suggesting that people in Hokkaido are responsible for the Russians living in the Kurils?

No. But why you use term 'assistance' if it really you must name as 'advance'? Terms 'assistance' and 'advance' are very difference. We never planing buy islands. I don't understand why you suppose that your 'assistance' is 'advance' for islands.

@samwatters

. That's fine. I have given up hope that those islands will become official Japanese terriorty again. But I also hope you understand we in Hokkaido do not want to fund the lives of your citizens on those islands anymore.

It's fair.

I have been to the islands a few times and the Russians there have often said that without Hokkaido assistance they would be in serious trouble. The islands are now Russia, so is the responsibility.

Yes it's Russian responsibility

But obviously - Russian centers are far away from Kurils so very logical to buy most of things in Japan. 90 th are far away also so now Russia can invest in these islands

But I think much more logical for Japan to invest ( not help)

Russia offer such possibility many times - joint economic exploitation of the islands..

I hope one day Japan and Russia can put this behind, a peace treaty can be signed, trade improved and brighter days looked forward to.

I also hope.

A strategic partnership between Russia and Japan clearly has its merits. But what are the costs, and is it acceptable?

Sorry I haven't intention to offend any Japanese, BUT today - Japan is not China (politically) even not Germany (I don't know why)

In short - Japan CAN'T choose its political course. Sorry.

So it's pure theory about costs and profits.

Until the Kuril dispute is resolved, Russians and Japanese will be inhibited from proceeding further.

Sorry one more time . Imagine - Russia give all 4 islands to Japan ...

What next ? When Russian troops leave East Europe US troops took their place...near Russian borders New US base ?? No thank you !

Japan's differences with China, North Korea and South Korea have presented an opening for repairing relations with Russia. In fact, a closer relationship with Russia would help improve Japan's ties with China and Korea

it would be great but unfortunately it is the impossible.

Olegek Aug. 01, 2012 - 02:36AM JST Sorry I haven't intention to offend any Japanese, BUT today - Japan is not China (politically) even not Germany (I don't know why) In short - Japan CAN'T choose its political course. Sorry. So it's pure theory about costs and profits.

Why do you think Putin met with Japan leaders last week? For the photo and a hug? Putin knows the Kurile Island issue is important for because Japan has already chose its political course with huge investment of pipelines in Siberia. Putin understands that Russia have entered the rapid changes in political and economic map of the world and they have to adjust. In recent years, more Russians are discontent on the state of socio-economic development of Russia, which provides, perhaps, more unpredictability in the economic modernization. As a result of the hazy modernization of Russia is experiencing considerable difficulties. The economic structure of Russia is seriously distorted and economic development is highly dependent on mostly natural resources. Problem in Russia, there is excessive economic barriers. Russia the situation is complicated with lack of technology, science and business which Japanese can assist. Medvedev is unable to solve these problems. Now their burden falls on Putin. Putin has no choice but to accelerate the reform and change the development of Russia, else, the pressure for Putin to resign will intensify.

BessonovYan and Olegek, it is alright if Russia does not comply with the Japanese terms for a peace treaty. Japan needs to stop all trade with Russia. It is such a small amount and if it hurts Japans economy so be it. It will punish the Russian one a lot more. Just think about all of those pipelines to nowhere. New pipelines can be built to Red China.

Next time Russia is in trouble, Japan should do nothing but sit back and eat the popcorn. Really guys there is no incentive for Japan to trade with Russia. Put the atomic plants back online and demand will fall. Again other than gas/oil that is subject to cut off for political reasons, what does Russia have to offer?

I say the above with no anger, it would be GREAT if a true and lasting peace treaty can be signed. The problem is Russia is not a credible government. Russian past is coming back to haunt.

@OlegekAug. 01, 2012 - 02:14AM JST

Russia offer such possibility many times - joint economic exploitation of the islands..

Are you colonizers? That islands can grow up without any help. But Moscow like create interference for all people in Russia that want work.

@YuriOtaniAug. 01, 2012 - 04:18AM JST

Japan also does not conform to the requirements of Russia. War criminals have been convicted and are not executed.

@sfjp330Aug. 01, 2012 - 03:50AM JST

That is not important. Russia is raw appendage to world because that is need Kremlin. Little people manage of big country. Putin is not Stalin, Medvedev is not Beriya.

Also i see that Japanese politics are not professional too. I suppose that Japan and Russia will be fall alone or separately.

BessonovYan, Russia wants to kill old men who did nothing to Russia? So Russia wants more than clear title to our Northern Territories? No wonder there can be no agreement. You prove my point, why bother talking to the Russian-Soviet? However if Russia wants to restart the war, they have to attack.

BessonovYan Aug. 01, 2012 - 05:00AM JST Are you colonizers? That islands can grow up without any help.

Sure, they can grow up without any help. Do you know the conditions of how these Russian people that currently live in Kurile Islands? They live exactly like they are third world country with hardly any basic supplies, including some of the basic medicine. And they use toilet paper from tree barks. No wonder they are tough.

BessonovYanAUG. 01, 2012 - 05:00AM JST @Olegek Russia offer such possibility many times - joint economic exploitation of the islands..

Are you colonizers? That islands can grow up without any help. But Moscow like create interference for all people in Russia that want work.

you are right BUT if Japan recognized border existing after 2 WW, why not ?

sfjp

Sure, they can grow up without any help. Do you know the conditions of how these Russian people that currently live in Kurile Islands? They live exactly like they are third world country with hardly any basic supplies,

Anyway it's Russian problem not Japanese

sfjp 330

Why do you think Putin met with Japan leaders last week? For the photo and a hug?

Putin met with dozens of liders ... he is not God Almighty just simple guy like you or I

Putin knows the Kurile Island issue is important for because Japan has already chose its political course with huge investment of pipelines in Siberia.

Sorry .... It could be intresting in 90-th when Russia has democracy and wreck at the same time or in 60- th when Russia begun to explore oilfields in Siberia... Today ? Do you think it's really intresting for Russia ?

To say the truth Russia hasn't enough oil/gas for EU China and Japan at the same time

sorry - you come toooo late

What does it means exactly -" its political course with huge investment of pipelines in Siberia."? Russia today - it's not Sumatra in year 1942... For such things Japan needs agrement with Russian gov

Putin understands that Russia have entered the rapid changes in political and economic map of the world and they have to adjust

Yes but Japan can't help in such situation - Japan itself has a huge problems in modern world which changing so quickly..

In recent years, more Russians are discontent on the state of socio-economic development of Russia,.......The economic structure of Russia is ... natural resources. Problem in Russia, .... lack of technology, science and business which Japanese can assist.

No Japan can't assist - COCOM and other restrictions

I had personal expirience in Russia in cooperation with Mazak, Okuma, Mori Seiki, Okamoto

Position :

Yes we have modern technologies !!! But not for Russia ...

Sorry

But obviously - Russian centers are far away from Kurils so very logical to buy most of things in Japan. 90 th are far away also so now Russia can invest in these islands But I think much more logical for Japan to invest ( not help)

@Olegek. I like your suggestion about "investment." Hopefully one day Japan and Russia will invest in each other. Whatever the outcome of the Kurils may be, free trade is something both of our countries will benefit from.

Problem is trading and economic investment does not make friendships. Any "peace treaty" signed now would be a lie. If no islands are returned it will be time for a new government in Tokyo. After that there would be a festering wound never healing as Russia rubs salt in it. A compromise might work but do not think it will happen. Russians hate Japanese and are still looking for Kataki. The same holds true for China and Korea.

My vision is a peace treaty in which both Japan and Russia would no longer be in military competition with each other. The biggest headache is the hangovers after their meetings. Question is can a true peace happen? It would take effort from both sides. Until both sides lay down their distrust and resentment for each other it will not happen.

@sfjp330Aug. 01, 2012 - 09:28AM JST

Yes, because I hope that Medevdev visit is very important and can be help to Kurils.

@YuriOtaniAug. 01, 2012 - 08:59AM JST

However if Russia wants to restart the war, they have to attack.

Welcome to Russia.