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© 2013 AFPJapan, S Korea foreign ministers set for first talks
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BurakuminDes
@ Samurai Blue - so, you are disputing the FACT Japanese soldiers raped children and used slaves for sex? That's a big call. I guess you have not read any Dutch/Chinese/Singaporean/Burmese etc accounts. C'mon - stop denying what your ancestors did and accept what EVERY other nation knows.
smoothd
Why meet unless Japan changes its stance on the sex slaves and the territories? Meeting for the sake of meeting is useless in my mind.
bannedacctsam
I respectfully disagree with most of the comments on this board. I think that the meeting between Korean and Japanese FM is extremely important. Optics and public perception is one of the most important aspects in diplomacy. In the long run, Japan is far better off with China and Korea as partners as opposed as to adversaries.
Grandfield
OssanAmerica,
That is ridiculous. Why would the US do something so stupid as to terminate it's defense agreement with South Korea and pull our forces out? Do you think we have our forces in Korea just for the sake of Korea? No, it is in our best interest to have our forces there because it gives us military influence in the region and allows us to check the expansion of Chinese influence. I don't know whose side you're on but having the Chinese forces stationed in South Korea would mean American suicide in the region. Do you really want that as an American? (I'm assuming you're an American from your name). But even for Japan, this would be the worst thing that could happen. The Korean peninsula is a very strategic location from the standpoint of military and economic power and advantage. And just because South Korea chose to prioritize her relationship with China over Japan does not mean that she still does not prioritize her relationship with US over China. Remember, the first country President Park visited in her capacity as president was the US, not China. Her choice to visit China second, instead of Japan, as other presidents have done, is due in large part to how Japan has been behaving in recent times. President Park has made it very clear that her relationship with Japan will be predicated on how they behave. If Japan was smart, they would not continually isolate themselves in this manner. The Chinese alliance with South Korea spells bad news for Japan.
chucky3176
There's nothing that stops from world's historians from examining this issue, and they have already. And most of them side with Korea, when it comes to existence of Japanese run sex slavery. If you want to argue with them, then fine, but that pretty much is like arguing there was no Hitler's death camps.
But I do agree with everyone here, this meeting is useless and just mere formality.
Grandfield
sfjp330,
Obviously you don't understand the "dialectic" (and even a" trilectic") that always operate in politics, especially Asian politics. In an interdependent, global situation like what you find between China, Korea, and Japan, there is always already an interdependence that cannot be denied. That is precisely the reason these three countries have to talk whether they like it or not. On the other hand, the recent actions of the Japanese government have resulted in Japan being increasingly isolated from both Korea and China, as well as the world opinion. That is precisely the reason why Japan is so desperate to engage in talks with South Korea and China, even if it is a sideline dialogue. Yes, none of the three countries could afford to isolate themselves for their own benefit, which is why that they have already decided to engage in a threeway FTA talks. This does not preclude the other dynamic of self-imposed isolationism which the Japanese government have brought about through their recent fiasco. That there is a dialectic (even a trilectic) means that there are both dynamics at work at the same time. "Nothing but politics?" Obviously, you lack an understanding of these complexities or the power that politics have on other dimensions of human existence (like for example, economics).
sfjp330
Grandfield,
Besides economics, the main reason the South Korean leader Park and their top representatives went to Beijing is the concern of North Korea. There is a stalemate in the negotiation with NK the industrial zone on the DMZ. There is extreme concern with the nuclear issue and wide array of problems that deals with NK. As you know, the top representatives of NK recently went to Beijing and discussed and negotiated the issues of Korean Peninsula, nuclear, and South Korean issues. Since China provides 90 percent of the economic aid to NK, they have the most influence on their behavior. South Korea goverment wanted to make sure they understand the China position when dealing with NK. At this time, there is no urgency for Park to go to Japan. Park has indicated South Korea wants to have better relations with Japan.
sfjp330
Grandfield Jul. 02, 2013 - 04:17AM JST Obviously you don't understand the "dialectic" (and even a" trilectic") that always operate in politics, especially Asian politics. In an interdependent, global situation like what you find between China, Korea, and Japan, there is always already an interdependence that cannot be denied.
Even with substantial growth in trade, the South Korea relationship with China remains a distant one. China and South Korea have only really had business ties since mid 80's, and diplomatic ties since early 90's. The South Korean conservatives like the current president come from strongly anti-communist group. Should South Koreaqn voters perceive her as getting too closely with China, Park may encounter strong opposition. About two-thirds of South Koreans disapprove China’s response to the recent North Korean threats, with the highest rate of disapproval coming from respondents from the young. The young South Koreans to view China more unfavorably in general. The most obvious reason is China’s support for the North Korean leadership. South Koreans complain about illegal Chinese fishing operations in South Korean waters.
Grandfield
"SamuraiBlue,
You lack the basic understanding of Asian and global politics. Do you really think that US's only purpose for having troops stationed in Korea is simply to counter North Korea's advances southward? There are today multiple reasons for having US troops continuing to be stationed in South Korea the most important being to contain China's influence and to insure America's continued military (and therefore economic and political) presence in the Korean peninsula which is a gateway to the continent of mainland China. I'm surprised that you, being a Japanese, don't know such a basic reason why Japan always tried to conquer Korea both in the 16th century and earlier in the last century. It was always as a means to conquer China. The geographical location of Korea has always been important for this reason. Why would the US voluntarily give up such a strategic position? Oh really? US is stationed there only for the sake of Korea? Do you think this type of economic and military sacrifices make sense for the US if it didn't serve our own interest?
sfjp330
Grandfield Jul. 02, 2013 - 01:53PM JST Why would the US do something so stupid as to terminate it's defense agreement with South Korea and pull our forces out? Do you think we have our forces in Korea just for the sake of Korea? No, it is in our best interest to have our forces there because it gives us military influence in the region and allows us to check the expansion of Chinese influence.
In order to reduce the tension in Korean Peninsula, the U.S. should consider relocating or even withdrawing some of the troops stationed in South Korea. The deployment of troops in South Korea was a leftover from the Cold War 50 years ago and and should have re-evaluation of the U.S. military presence. The role may be nearing the end of its useful life with South Korea since they have the capability to defend any North Korean attack itself. South Korea has strong economy and well equipped military force than the North, and has all the capability of providing deterrent that's needed. U.S. should transfer some of these troops to some neighboring areas to reduce cost. The U.S. military presence on the Korean Peninsula with hard line approach on North Korea has actually hindered the development of closer ties with the North.
sfjp330
Grandfield Jul. 03, 2013 - 04:53AM JSTAlso, at the top of our priority is to containing the influence of China.
How ridiculous. The challenge for the U.S. is the management of China's rise. Precisely because of the major roles both economies play in the global economic system, the U.S. cannot simply "contain" China in the way that U.S. and its allies were able to contain Russia during the Cold War. Given the high levels of interdependence between the two, any direct move toward containment would be painful and likely self-defeating.
Chamkun
I agree with smoothd but with different reasons . These politicians do not have to meet at this stage.It will be a wasting time. As long as Korea call it as the sex slaves which did not exist, we need historians from not just Japan and Korea but other countries as well to make it more objectively. Because a lot of Japanese know that they were (The most of them) working as a prostitute paid by Korean owners average 300 yen/ month and got 1~3 yen from each of their clients while the average salary was 5~7 yen at that time for ordinary people then. The sex slave sounded as it they had been abducted and taken by force. That why the statement on the monument which was established in NY and NJ that states over 200,000 Korean women were abducted and raped then forcefully they were made to be a sex slave by Japanese government that makes many Japanese today angry and uncomfortable. This is not exact phrase but basically this is what it is saying. If the politics works, this monument would have been there.
Also another reason that Japan does not need to meet a Korean minister if Korea has not accepted their illegal occupation of Takeshima by force which went against San Francisco peace treaty article 3. For these issues, Korea should bring the sex slave issue to ICJ. Japan should bring Takeshima issue to ICJ as well. The both nation must agree to meet at ICJ. The politicians should not get involved the issue any more. I am sure unless we fix the issue at ICJ, these issue could not be solved politically any more. We will be hurting each other for over 100 years. I would rather to fight at ICJ which could last long but not over 100 years. I am old enough to remember the basic treaty which was signed by today's Korean president Park's father in 1965. I expected that by the time I get my age today, Japan and Korea would be a real partner because it said all the issues before 1945 has been solve completely and forever. Then Japan paid $800,000,000 when $1= 360 yen. and gave all the asset unconditionally that was $5,300,000.000. but the situation got even worse. I do not know how many Koreans who keep begging an apology from Japan. Unless the 3rd party like ICJ gets involved, Korea will keep saying the same thing forever. That is an actual proof for me. The politics does not work between these nations.We can not count on the civilized manner of Korea. I do not want this would be continued. This must be solved at ICJ. I know while we are at ICJ and whatever the out come would be, 30 years, we would go through a hard time but that is only the chance I see for the 2 nations. In this way, may be after 2050, we might have some level of harmony.
Grandfield
As Chucky3176 pointed out, it is not the Koreans but the Japanese government that is desperate to meet with both with Korea and China's ministers. With the recent historic trip taken by President Park to China, a stronger, unprecedented, alliance has formed between South Korea and China. By visiting China before visiting Japan, as previous presidents have done, South Korea has made a clear statement as to where their alliance priority will be - with China and not Japan, as in the past. China has also reciprocated in this regard. They are united in their criticism against Japan with regard to her unreasonable interpretations of history as well as territorial disputes. This puts Japan at a significant disadvantage both politically and economically (not to mention culturally, morally, and militarily). It is in Japan's interest to meet with both South Korea and China in order to fight off the impression (and the reality) that they are becoming an increasingly isolated power continually losing influence and significance in Asia (and worldwide). I for one agree with all of you who wished that Japan does not meet with South Korea but for a different reason. Unless Japan is willing to change their positions on the "comfort women" (i.e. sexual-slavery), confront the truth of their war crimes in their educational textbooks, and not have its politicians continually visit the war shrines, I hope South Korea (and China) do not meet with the Japanese minister. This will further isolate Japan and put pressure for change. That seems to be the only type of motivation for change that they understand.
sfjp330
Grandfield Jul. 02, 2013 - 01:00AM JST This will further isolate Japan and put pressure for change. That seems to be the only type of motivation for change that they understand.
Isolate? This is nothing but politics. The reality is that the trade ministers of China, Japan and South Korea have agreed to step up efforts towards forming a trilateral free trade agreement. These three countries know that free flow of trade and investment between their countries is the key to sustaining growth and they have been looking to increase trade among themselves because the demand from key markets like the US and Europe has fallen. Sounds like isolation on Japan to you?
OssanAmerica
The United States should terminate it's defense agreement with South Korea and pull our forces out. Let the Chinese PLA be stationed in South Korea,
Chamkun
What you are saying here is a different subject. We are talking about over 200,000 abduction case claim in Korea which has never happened in the history. There many circumstantial evidences.
Grandfield
SamuraiBlue,
While you are completely correct that the Korean peninsula is both a buffer zone and stepping stone during military advancement, you are incorrect to think that it is "nothing more, nothing less." Don't forget that the Korean peninsula is located at an intersection of land and sea which boarders China and Russia. As such and therefore it is also a key beachhead and bridge for US in maintaining maritime influence in Northeast Asia and beyond not just militarily but economically and politically. It acts as a bridgehead for transportation and trade, and being at the easternmost tip of Eurasia, also serves as a hub for various global networks. South Korea's market technology and industrial facilities and tourist industries are invaluable for China's economic rise. The US strategy in Korea is therefore built primarily on the need to maintain balance of power by keeping China and Russia in check and preventing further expansion of especially China. US uses the tensions in Korea as a pretext for flexing its muscles vis-a-vis China. It is therefore in the interest of US to keep our troops there. This is all part of Northeast Asian politics 101.
Grandfield
sfjp330,
I don't want to continually repeat my previous posts so if you're interested in my response to your point, please refer to them, I will just repeat here that US has multiple reasons for continuing to remain in South Korea even after the Cold War 50 years ago. Like some others who have previously posted in this thread, you are making the mistake of thinking that the US is stationed in Korea simply and only to counter the attack from the North Korea. That's just one of our objectives which is not our main reason for being there. As I pointed out previously, the US uses the tension in Korea as a useful pretext for staying in the region and having military, economic, and political presence. Also, at the top of our priority is to containing the influence of China. Developing closer ties with the North, while important, is not the only or the primary objective of the US as they remain stationed in Korea.
Grandfield
sfjp330,
I don't think I should be investing too much of time explaining such basics of Northeast Asian politics but, suffice it to say, the strategy that US is using is not a "direct move toward containment." It is very much an "indirect move" vis-a vis the tension between North and South Korea. China strategy is very much the same. If you don't understand the complexity behind this concept than let's just leave it at that.
4649Julian
Chamkun, Smoothd, OssanAmerica,
I agree with all. This time, the meeting will be just a formality. I can not expect any progress by these politicians.
Chamkun. I like what you said but unfortunately, there was one case in Indonesia. The evidence was found in Japan that the government got involved one case. Japan must apologize for this case sincerely for even long time from now on. But besides that, there is no abduction by Japaneses military and government to make them as a sex slave that how Korea is claiming today or the statement on the monument. Some criminal solders did. But there are records that they got a capital punishment by Japanese military. That kind of order was there and then. It would have been impossible to abduct over 200,000 women unless entire army had worked that as a project. So if Korea does not change or at least become ready to have more wide open attitude for this kind of facts base discussion, Japan has no reason to see them. I agree,instead of any political discussion, the name of place should be ICJ.
There is a US report in 1943, The US was the enemy of Japan then. But how they describe those women and how Japanese solders are very different story. They were treated quit well. No abduction, no violence. I personally have some moral issue but in those days, paying woman to do so was not a crime. Here is the 3rd country's report. (The 3rd country but they were in a war with Japan then.) Any one can find this from archive center. Form this American report, we can see this issue more objectively.
UNITED STATES OFFICE OF WAR INFORMATION Psychological Warfare Team Attached to U.S. Army Forces India-Burma Theater APO 689 Japanese Prisoners of War Interrogation on Prostitution Report No. 49.
OssanAmerica
Your statement would make appoint if Japan hadn't signed treaties with both South Korea and China and engaged in trade, good relations and provided aid and assistance. Despite this it is China and South Korea that are treating Japan as an adversary.
hkitagawa
Well, just stop buying Made in Korea products. I am sure that it will affect them.
SamuraiBlue
Grandfield
In terms of troops in Korea, yes it is only for the sake of Korea since there is very little geographical advantage to station troops there for the US. The US contigency plan if North advances South wards has always been to fall back to Japan and start an offensive from various Japanese bases. The Tsushima Channel in the south and other northern channels can be controlled from Japan.
As always Koreans are over their head grossly overestimating their importance within the region.
SamuraiBlue
Grandfield
The Korean peninsula is basically a buffer zone for both sides to gain time to fortify each other's territory which also acts as a foothold during advancement. Nothing more, nothing less. Not worth a dime in terms of actual geographic importance as long as Japan is intact for the US and a pain in the neck against invaders from the mainland since it acts as an impenetrable shield holding all the chock points.
Basically it's a place to fight proxy wars.
black_jack
I agree with Chamkun. I would like to add my point.
One of the biggest mistake that japan did to South Korea, escalating them to demand more and more and thus hindering a good relation between the two nations is that Japan took a soft stance against Korea. When Japan normalized with korea, it paid tremedous amount of money, and left her own assests to Korea, thinking that the relation between the two nations will improve. However, Korean government hided this fact from their citizens and acted as if Japan paid nothing. Same thing happended recently. When Japanese media started reporting about the existence of comfort women whose majority where Japanese, Korean media also started echoing this report. Then suddenly many women in Korea started claiming that they were comfort women. Then Japanese government apologized to the former comfor women in the famous Kono satement of 1993, and founded the Asian Women Fund to compensate these comfort women. However, things got worse and worse. The tertm "Comfort Women" changed to "Sex Slaves" somehow, and their desription from "paid prostitutes working in brothels adjacent to military facilities" changed to "Women who were kidnapped by the Japanese military to be raped".
The Korean reaction to the Japanese apology and compensation reminds me of a begger who was begging me in a convenience store. One day when I was in a convenience store, a beggar who saw me receiving many changes, approached to me and ask for a coin. I gave him one coin, which encaouraged him to beg more. So I gave him a few coins thinking that he will get satisfied and leave me soon. However things got escalated, and he started demanding bill notes. he even followed me. I ignored him and ran away.
My point is that Japan should never apologize and pay compensation any more, if she wants to improve the relation with Korea. Japan should learn from China in that sense. There is no country other than China which inflicted damage to Korean peninsula the most. Korea was China's tributary state for more that 1000 years, and invaded Korea many times. The Chinese are also the main cause of the division of Korean penisula. However, Koreans never demand apology and compensation from China, because they know that China will not treat them seriously.
Chamkun
black_jack
Right. I can really subscribe to your point of view. I can see why they did not let Korean people know what the contents of the basic treaty in 1965. They did not give money to the people that they should have.Japan tried to provide fund for each cases but Korea insisted that it would take another 10 years, Korea( president Park's father was part of it, ) demanded total amount of compensation for Korean people,so $800,000,000 in cash was given to Korea. And to the government, $5,300,000,000 unconditional asset to Korea which is more than what Germany did. Unfortunately the most of the money did not go to the people who should have been paid via Korean government. For long time, the basic treaty was not shown to their people. I believe still some of the contents are not shown to them.
I can think two reasons.
1) The money was used for their infrastructure and economic booster for today's their success. ( I am happy for their success but I wish they had been told the fact. The money would be used for this reason that for Korea) So Korean Government could not say everything what happened in 1965 to resolve all issues with Japan. Japan think it has been finished like my self. But the most of Korean could not think that way. Still Korean people think Japan never apologies. Of course, achieving the basic treaty took long time and we were supposed to put every issues on the table then. The sex slave issue was not mentioned at all be Koreans. That happened after Seiji Yoshida's non fiction book was published that later he admitted that he lied in the book.
2) Korean government may be needed Japan as a scapegoat. So keep Japan as a bad guy to control their own people whenever they needed. Just like recent event, The former president's brother or his right hand man got involved some scandal. When his popularity was lost, he went to Takeshima and talking about sex slave issue. The media and people's attention were shifted to Japan not to the president. Japan is very convenient for them also for China.
chucky3176
According to this Korean media, Japanese foreign minister wants the two country's leaders to get together for talks. Korea's president Park on the other hand, is more cautious. Korea's fear is that they will hold the meetings, and Japan once again back stab the good will, with more right wing type of talking. So Korea will wait and see if the motor mouths in Tokyo can stop blabbering outrageous remarks that offends people in Korea. So no more talking until Tokyo stops the verbal belligerence.
http://media.daum.net/v/20130701140107904
Shankun
lol, continue the list ;) You missed spiritualy as I can see.
How about stopping anti-Japanese eductaional systems in both countries??? ;)
lol, China doesn't have to care about their position because they don't have to open their mouths to let everyone know about that. On the other hand, South Korea... won't be an empire. Well, they could, merging with Chinese and repeating the history after some 70 of independence.
The problem was brought up by Japanese, Koreans joined the bandwagon later on demanding money. lol, 'sexual slavery'. In a second I can tell you're on Korean or Chinese side.
Yes, and in the end Japanese Islands will sink in Pacific Ocean. Nice little tale.
OssanAmerica
I agree a meeting is useless until South Korea changes it's stance on the Comfort Women, their illegal occupation of Takeshima and their anti-Japan education and whitewashing of their own history.
SamuraiBlue
Korea's economy is going down the drain and are crawling towards PRC for help. Unfortunately PRC's bubble is about to pop and their chairman is going to let it as you can see the chinese short term interbank lending rate is going up rapidly with their shadow bank investment system investing in developing ghost towns is about to go bust dragging most of their economy with it. (PRC is said to have 4.15 trillion in the shadow bank investment scheme. As comparison the US Housing that went bust only had 1.5 trillion)
At the end of this year Korea is going to come crawling back to Japan DEMANDING for help where you'll see a very different attitude by the Japanese government when this happens.
Chamkun
This is so typical reaction. If so why not evidence has not been shown. Japan never said we do not want apology include my self. Also why the other side of inconvenient truth, Koreans are trying to surpress? Seoul university's professor, Anne Byunjuku(Spelling ??? sorry) said after his historical research,'' nothing came out that proves the sex slave claim. He was under the pressure that if he can not find it, some level of manufacturing of it was needed,so he quit. That research team was not try to find the truth but some fact which can use the political advantage with Japan. The hones Korean professor could not stay there. If Korea had enough evidence as you said, you should agree with me that I suggest to sue Japan to ICJ for the case. So that everything will be more clear.
That only I said is instead of my opinion, the fact that is our ministers having a meeting which will not solve the issues.
My personal opinion is simple. It did not happen, I could be wrong. But the based on a commonsense, it is hard to believe that there is no witnesses who ave seen the moment that actually Japanese solders went into someone's home to abduct girls and women then forcefully took to the place. If over 200,000 women were treated that way as the monument said, there must be a witness.The late 80s and early 90s, many Japanese and some Korean journalists looked for witness but could not find them. The people who remember some case is Keesen( spelling) took them, some women went there because their own decision. May be some family reasons, in those days in Japan some girls were sold there, too. That it self is a big problem. Morality wise, even if that was not illegal then.I do not like it. However, being a client of Keesen and abducting,making them as a slave is a completely a different story. That is why Japan must say what we need to say. Other wise the next generation will have these hot potatoes. In fact, I was not even been born in those days. But went through this issue. Also knowing the Korean mentality, it is hard to conceive that they let Japanese take their daughters and wives. Also they kept the silence till 1980s. Japan lost the war in 1945. And Mr. Park had a chance to say anything in 1965. That was not mentioned at all. It has been too long. I have given up these issues with political solutions, but ICJ. Korea sues Japan for sex slave issue then Japan Accept it, Japan sues Korea for Takeshima issue then Korea will go for it.
I can see much more tangible steps for the better future for both of us in this way. Kamsuminida. If any individual cases which have produced a tragedy by some individual Japaneses solders to the women of victims that could have happened, I want to apologize to them now. If ICJ found the fact I do not know, then Japan lost, I will do that again and again while I am alive. The most Japanese will feel that way I believe. But not the result based on the politicians talk behind the scene. Both nation's people will not accept any out come for Sex Slave issue and Takeshima Issue in that way. This is my conclusion for this article.
Chamkun
Sorry for type. in 1) I wrote, NOT be Koreans. but BY Koreans.
PS. Of course during the discussion for the basic treaty, every remaining issues were discussed that why it ended as every issues were solved between Korea and Japan completely and forever. No more claim for the issue before 1945. Signed by Mr. Park
SamuraiBlue
Chuky
The American occuping force nor the Tokyo tribunal found any evidence to support any mistreatment and found that the females had recieved a very handsome salary for their service.
Now I wonder which historians are you talking about.
OssanAmerica
It is true that most historians globally accept the existence of the Comfort Women System. But then so does the Japanese government. As for whether 200,000 women were all kidnapped and raped, which appears to be the Korean position, you will not find many historians outside of South Korea subscribing to it.