politics

Japan says time for pressure, not dialogue with N.Korea

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Great advice! Sanctions haven't worked, so let's have more! Stopping the flow of currency just means that the poor will get even poorer. It's not going to stop Kim having caviare with his cornflakes for breakfast.

7 ( +12 / -5 )

Pressure huh, sounds more like distraction talk.

why the sudden notion of pressure now?

where was this notion when they abducted Japanese citizens or even when they shot missiles into your economic zones?

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Funny stuff. Sanctions don't work, they never have. In fact, they often have the exact opposite effect to the one intended, making the sanctioned country more united and more creative in finding ways around them. Just look at the effect sanctions had on aparthied-era South Africa.

Instead of try to starve the North Koreans to death the global community should be following the China / Russia lead and try to integrate the country deeper into the world economic system. That's what will (eventually) lead to peaceful regime change, one hopes.

10 ( +12 / -2 )

Actually, it sounds ok to me. South Korea talks with their former fellow countrymen while Japan stays out of it. If the two Koreas could work things out for themselves, all the better. One of the main factors that has destabilized Korea over the years has been the unsolicited influence of other countries.

11 ( +12 / -1 )

BertieWoosterToday 07:37 am JSTGreat advice! Sanctions haven't worked, so let's have more! Stopping the flow of currency just means that the poor will get even poorer.

You really think stopping the flow of foreign currency into NK has any effect on the poor? What do you think NK is doing with that foreign currency, buying food and vitamins? Even food aid supplies we sent were found to be diverted to the military in accordance with their Song Gun (military first) policy.

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

Everyone claiming that sanctions hasn't worked - how haven't they worked? N. Korea hasn't started any wars in the past 50 years have they? Seems they are working fine.

Stopping the flow of currency just means that the poor will get even poorer. It's not going to stop Kim having caviare with his cornflakes for breakfast.

True, but they may cause enough satisfaction for the people to rise up against the overlords. And that is the most ideal outcome of all.

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

Everyone claiming that sanctions hasn't worked - how haven't they worked? N. Korea hasn't started any wars in the past 50 years have they? Seems they are working fine.

Yet they have had a rather sizeable military throughout that time. Maybe they are not quite the boogeyman they are being made out to be. Of course, goading them long enough will likely cause them to lash out at some stage (it has worked with other nations). Yet if you look at history and past economic policies, and if you can see things from their point of view (leaving prejudice aside for a moment), and the Korean war offensive notwithstanding, they are probably feeling like their militarization has very much been for the purpose of defense.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Kim must be very happy with this Abe dictum.

Thanks to Shinzo , missiles formerly aimed at Seoul would now be facing Tokyo exclusively!

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

One of the main factors that has destabilized Korea over the years has been the unsolicited influence of other countries.

No, one of the main factors keeping Korea from going to war is the alliances and support that one of the Koreas has with other countries.

The main factor destabilizing would be the ideologies of the free democratic ROK and the oppressive communist dictatorship of DPRK. The next factor would be that the DPRK has hundreds of artillery batteries aimed at the Seoul metropolitan area which has a population of 24 million people and the fact that the DPRK has been the only party who have committed violent acts the last 65 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_border_incidents_involving_North_Korea

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Of course, goading them long enough will likely cause them to lash out at some stage

Suppositions like this are dangerous as they are used for 'pre-emptive strikes' (which is really just a euphemism for starting a war).

We can't go on what we want to pretend may happen, we must go on what has actually happened.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

We can't go on what we want to pretend may happen, we must go on what has actually happened.

And what has happened? You said yourself that they didn't start any wars for the past 50 years.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Typical J govt response to not just NK but a number of other issues as well - lets use the same techniques that produced zero results in the past again with more intensity. Yep....thanks for your creative input everyone, otsukaresama, time for drinks at Ginza on the taxpayer tonight.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

And what has happened? You said yourself that they didn't start any wars for the past 50 years.

Exactly. What has happened is that they haven't started any more wars. As such, we cannot attack them based on 'they probably will start a war', as that logic could be used any time against anyone anywhere. We can only attack if/when they do actually start a war.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

"This is not a time for dialogue. This is a time for pressure,"

"This is a time to raise pressure in order to conduct a serious dialogue," said Maruyama.

This is not a time for dialogue but time for pressure to conduct dialogue, what type of JP nonsense is this ? Why "pressure" and "no dialogue" if SK thinks they can resolve some issues with dialogue now ? Sounds like a pretty aggressive attitude, one should always be willing to have dialogue over sanctions if possible, I smell that an aggressive NK is what the LDP want to have to stay in power, make the constitution change a necessity to the eyes of the voters and make PM out of media pressure during local scandals here.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

So now the LDP is behind everything that North Korea does...LOL

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

The North Korean communist is the biggest problem and is causing problems for their poor citizens. So yes I honestly think other countries should do more than just dialogue and sanctions. In worst case scenario...Military actions should take place to help the N.Korean citizens.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

Alfie Noakes

Just look at the effect sanctions had on aparthied-era South Africa.

The main difference between the sanctions against apartheid and those against the North Korean government is in the 80s South Africa had something countries wanted (steel, uranium, coal, textiles) and its economic growth required an import of black workers from the townships to the cities, breaking apartheid rules and, eventually, apartheid. The sanctions might have speeded the process along. Might.

What does North Korea have that other countries want? Is their economy growing? Do they even have a middle class? Plus, any group that rises up to overthrow the Kim dynasty will be destroyed unto the seventh generation - look what Kim did to his brother and uncle; ain't gonna happen.

Alfie has a good point: the richer the country, the more integrated they are internationally, the more change is possible. Because to be richer, the country has to have a middle class working to make products other countries want. One dynasty with a large army can't accomplish that.

http://www.snf.ch/sitecollectiondocuments/nfp/nfp42p/nfp42p_staehelin-e.pdf

2 ( +2 / -0 )

a war with north korea would devastate japans infrastructure and kill off the next generation of young workers. just some old grumpy men, who couldn't colonise Korea and China wanting to try again before they die.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

cant reason with an idiot who doesn't listen. seal NK borders. Its time to show them who is in charge

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

Exactly. What has happened is that they haven't started any more wars. As such, we cannot attack them based on 'they probably will start a war', as that logic could be used any time against anyone anywhere. We can only attack if/when they do actually start a war.

I wholeheartedly agree with your statement. But judging by your comment above, you seem to attribute the fact that they haven't started any wars to the sanctions against them.

Everyone claiming that sanctions hasn't worked - how haven't they worked? N. Korea hasn't started any wars in the past 50 years have they? Seems they are working fine.

Sure, we should only attack if they start a war, but don't you think the sanctions are also an act of aggression? It seems that 'the powers that be' will not be happy until NK is backed into a corner and swings the first punch.

If you ask me, the sanctions have done little more than drawn a line in the sand (god forbid anyone but the U.S. having atomic weapons..!) and inflamed the situation in even more. All while making the citizens of NK suffer.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Americanism: Good cop, bad cop. Will he go for the bait? NO! But, thank you SK, you tried.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

judging by your comment above, you seem to attribute the fact that they haven't started any wars to the sanctions against them.

Not necessarily. But the sanctions haven't started a war.

Sure, we should only attack if they start a war, but don't you think the sanctions are also an act of aggression? It seems that 'the powers that be' will not be happy until NK is backed into a corner and swings the first punch.

It hasn't happened yet, and ideally won't. Of course we can't know that until/unless they actually do swing the first punch. But if they do, that puts them in the wrong, and deserving of whatever happens to them. If we swing the first punch, that puts us in the wrong, and makes us deserving of whatever happens to us.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

It hasn't happened yet, and ideally won't. Of course we can't know that until/unless they actually do swing the first punch.

I certainly hope nothing will happen, too.

Any act of aggression from NK would end in annihilation. They know that. The only reasons they would do such a thing is if they saw it as self defense and made a pre-emptive strike (i.e. parking an armada just off the coast would send any nation into high alert). The other reason would be just pure desperation after being kicked around for so long.

Both of these would occur as result of outside forces meddling with them and constantly backing them into a corner; aka 'bullying'. Let's call it what it is.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

The irony in all this being, undue pressure was the final straw that pushed Japan to attack the us.

Abe needs his boogeyman to deflect from the scandals. Too bad Kim is taking his time with the next launch.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

So why is China helping Abe by not reining Kim in?

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Sanctions have not and never will work for NK.  There is always someone out there that is willing to fund them and offer support.  Abe should stand firm except with the wrong country at least for now. Just last night, Chinese coast guard ships passed in waters clearly belonging to Japan between Aomori and Hokaido and Japan did nothing, neither did the US.  Japan should have just sunk the ship as that is precisely what China would have done and then start asking questions.  On the one hand China is talking to Japan about starting a business group and leave the military out while with the other hand they are constantly encroaching in waters of their neighbors, meddling in the NK matter while on the other saying it is not their responsibility.  Yet all this from the wanna be leader of the world? Please.  Until someone sinks the Chinese ship upfront and bold, then and only then will they back down.   Japan needs to get tough or else be over run. They need to put the order of the US and get their money's worth. Abe sink the Chinese ships in your waters, it is a Japanese right of way.

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

Smoke screens, distractions .. the LDP lately grabs everything they can to avoid talking and solving their Abe-Problems. And again NK comes in handy to please the common folks news.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

@bj Japan should have just sunk the ship

you think it is OK to just go around sinking ships? killing people just following orders? glad you are not in the army. don't have children you love.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

"Japan on Monday downplayed South Korea's offer to hold military talks with North Korea, saying the priority should be piling pressure on Pyongyang through sanctions."

So... Japan is volunteering everyone else apply pressure while its ineffective sanctions continue? The ONLY time progress has been made with dialogue has been through the reverse, with Koizumi and cooperation in the South, and then Japan derailed that, too, by listening to the ultra-right after Koizumi came back home to pander to the locals.

"Pressure", as Japan suggests, will do nothing -- Japan just wants some of the pressure taken off it and spread to other nations.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

Many would argue that sanction most certainly do work, and did in the case of South Africa (especially at the psychological level). It worked by turning every white South African into a likely pariah.

One of best evidence of how well they work going on at present is how much effort and expense Israel is putting into lobbying against the DBS movement (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions) against it, even going as far as to having it made illegal in foreign countries and stifling free speech worldwide. Israel, of course, being the other pariah state that would do business with South Africa when others would not.

But why is everyone picking gunning at regime change in North Korea? Why can't it just be left alone?

I could understand human rights concerns etc, but I don't get the feeling that that is really what the motivating purpose is all about.

Is the USA still stuck in Cold War mentality? Is it being driven by their military-industrial complex?

It's rapidly becoming the number one global pariah.

Thinking of forcibly removing Kim? See how well that worked out in Iraq and Libya.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

"Sanctions don't work" strikes me as a kid of Hoover-esque meme spread by those who are targetted by them.

Perhaps the ones that did not work just weren't applied severely enough.

But what right does anyone have to meddle in another nation's sovereign affairs?

And you could add a whole load of other countries to that "Iraq and Libya" list.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Is the USA still stuck in Cold War mentality?

I think, partly yes, in the back of their minds.

Is it being driven by their military-industrial complex?

Very much, yes!

It's just lucky for Japan that the US's geopolitical ambitions share a mutual goal that coincides with Japan Inc.'s quest to change the constitution. Unfortunately NK is the easily bullied target for both of these agendas to be fulfilled.

Thinking of forcibly removing Kim? See how well that worked out in Iraq and Libya.

Never has, never will work out. But with these recent junkets into weaker nations with something to gain, was that the actual goal? If it was about removing a tyrant and restoring human rights, I'm sure you could quickly put up a list of a dozen or more countries/leaders that 'ought' to be removed. Perhaps the U.S. should invade Japan...

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Japan should stay out of this. They single-handedly scuppered the six nations agreement in 2009 before the days of Kim Jong Un. Japan, the Koreas, China, USA and Russia spent many years eventually reaching an agreement that was producing fruit. Even that bastion of impartiality NHK showed footage of NK demolishing an atomic facility as part of the deal and reported America unfreezing NK bank accounts in Macau. Japan then refused to cooperate unless NK did something about the abduction issue, which the agreement was not about. The whole sorry history of the talks is on Wikipedia for those interested.

South Korea would like peace with NK, Japan is happy to see a divided country and, as other posters pointed out, to have Kim Jong Un as the bogeyman. Let the dialogue commence!

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Hammerhead: "But what right does anyone have to meddle in another nation's sovereign affairs?"

Says the guy supporting sanctions at a meeting where Japan is pushing other nations to put MORE sanctions on another.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Japan should not interfere in the internal talks between "brothers and sisters". Sometimes it's just reasonable to let North and South deal with the constraints themselves without involvement from either Russia, China, Japan nor USA! Should a "neutral" country evolve as a natural choice for negotiator, than go ahead.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

The North Korean communist is the biggest problem and is causing problems for their poor citizens.

Whatever that system is (juche included) it's not communism. It is designed to keep the citizens down, rather than benefit from the fruits of the collective. Under the Kim dynasty; the citizens will remain oppressed and living in fear.

So yes I honestly think other countries should do more than just dialogue and sanctions. In worst case scenario...Military actions should take place to help the N.Korean citizens.

Military action will result in countless lives lost. And not just the citizens of the DPRK but further afield.

It must not be allowed to happen.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Japan can bleat all it wants, they are not going to be the one's putting pressure on anyone by themselves.

This could all be a ploy by Abe to prop up his falling poll numbers to make him look "strong" once more!

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Remember that DPRK has lashed out more than once before, giving clear excuses/reasons to restart the war.

That war did not result, is surely due to the restraint of SK and supporting western powers.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

The problem now is that NK has nukes and may or may not have the capability to deliver them to Japan, which would present an existential national threat. It makes sense for SK to bend over for NK and ask for dialogue now as SK would be wiped out in any military conflict with the North. SK's moves make it possible for Japan to be put in this same situation, so they aren't a very friendly ally TBH if that's their intention.

I would be supportive of America shooting down all future NK missile tests to halt their missile development for the time being

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Another reason the democracies of the world blew it when they bowed to short-term economic interests in supporting the CCP. Close all markets to the CCP and the CCP would solve the North Korea problem post haste.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

The world should thank Russia and China for not allowing the Iraqification and Syrianification of the Korean Peninsula.

If the forces of the so-called "democratic invaders and colonizers " have their ways then Seoul could now be Aleppo's twin city in appearance and Pyongyang a Mosul !

Tokyo would be a Raqqa while Washington remains as beautiful and peaceful and so far away from all the killings and devastation!

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Abe needs some pressures to stop rewriting peace constitution.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Once again America's ugly hand up Nihon's backside and operating the government's mouth. If Japan comes to terms with Bukhan, it will weaken the American image of trump's bogus boogieman in the East and we'll have to find a new one. Talking is never a good idea when you can continue pushing and shoving a smaller person so you 'look tough'. Moon may signal a whole new approach which, I believe, the U.S. will not like if only because it will take away justification for maintaining our 65 year military occupation of Hanguk, and possibly even our 70 year military occupation and political manipulation of Nihon. I would suspect that the CIA is already drawing up scenarios for 'regime change' in South Korea, so watch your six, Mr. Moon. America has a 'no tolerance' policy for independent thinking among its presumed vassals.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

mulanJuly 18 10:36 pm JSTAbe needs some pressures to stop rewriting peace constitution

Then Xi needs to pressure Kim to accomplish that.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Kim will do following to stop Abe's eliminating peace:

ask China to stop send tourists to Japan, or reduce to the same level to NKorea;

ask China to stop trade with Japan, or reduce to the same level to the NKorea;

ask China to demand a war compensation from Japan since the foundation for the waiver is no longer exists.
0 ( +0 / -0 )

As if China will do what Kim wants. He hasn't even come to China.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The bloodthirsty are at it again. They need another war. A really, really good one with hundreds of thousands of deaths and destruction.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Looking at this picture again I noticed something: it seems NK's tech capabilities are improving not just in rockets - that is a flat screen display. I would've expected the old crt type.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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