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Japan, U.S. to begin talks on host nation support, possibly this week

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The working-level talks are slated to begin after a meeting of Japanese Foreign Minister Toshimitsu Motegi, U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and their Australian and Indian counterparts to be held Tuesday in Tokyo.

So all these folks are coming to Tokyo! Didn't know the "Go to" Tokyo campaign included people from "gaikokuland"!

Due to travel restrictions to prevent the spread of the novel coronavirus, the negotiations for the agreement will likely take place via video link.

Huh? You just said they are coming to Tokyo! So you mean they are flying all the way over here, to hold a video link conference?

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Japan has already increased it's contribution by raising its defense spending to 8.3%.

Japan is the only nation to pay the most for decades, up to %80 of the cost, billions spent while SKorea doesn't even pay half of what Japan pays, and they had to be rescued from North Korea Invasion before.

S. Korea only has to join in a fight if Korean territory is hit, otherwise it's only Japan and America. Does that count America? The true and only Ally in East Asia is Japan.

We also purchased the most U.S. bonds supporting America and its economy up to 1.1 Trillion dollars. Does that count?

We have hundreds of manufacturing facilities in the U.S., good paying jobs employing over a Million Americans on your soil. Does that count America?

Okinawa is one of the best location for your troops and bases. Does that count?

We purchased billions worth of untested American weapons supporting your military industry. Does that count America?

We supported you in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korean War, you used our territory and land. Does that count America?

Who is negotiating for Japan... We always get the worst deal ever!!

6 ( +14 / -8 )

... the president has asked Japan to quadruple its contribution to $8 billion annually.

U.S. President Donald Trump's negotiation strategy is to offer a bombshell first and come down to a lucrative conclusion in the deal. So if Washington asked Japan to quadruple the so-called "sympathy budget" to an annual $8 billion, Tokyo should tell them all U.S. bases, especially those in Okinawa, to be closed and returned.  Do Tokyo’s negotiators have guts to say that?

9 ( +14 / -5 )

@voiceofokinawa

No, they don't.

The US should be paying Okinawa rent for the land it occupies.

13 ( +16 / -3 )

The question is if the United States is trustable enough to commit their military in case Japan is attacked by one if its foes, as history had shown that unless there's something in it for the Americans to gain, they just can't be arsed to join a war. Look at their supposed allies that they had abandon in recent years, like the Kurds in Syria.

Think it'll be wiser for Japan to rely on themselves. They should start by scrapping that American imposed pacifist constitution and replace it with something more suited to the volatile region where Japan is located.

7 ( +11 / -4 )

If Motegi, Kishi and Suga were smart they would say that they would prefer to begin discussions next year after the new president is sworn in. But they aren't, and they don't have a spine so they'll go along and commit to whatever comes up only to burden tax payers even more.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Japan could certainly negotiate a 50% reduction in US troops. Large contingents of Army and USMC ground troops aren't needed and still keep the Japanese civilian employees.

Hey, Japan first.

7 ( +11 / -4 )

And the current administration has proven to be unreliable in upholding agreements. How would you negotiate a business deal with someone unreliable?

0 ( +7 / -7 )

Japan could certainly negotiate a 50% reduction in US troops. Large contingents of Army and USMC ground troops aren't needed and still keep the Japanese civilian employees.

With a growing looming and more hostile China, not likely to happen.

0 ( +8 / -8 )

200 billion yen annually can be used in a much better way for the citizen of its own county rather than throwing it on the US military. It’s about time that Japan close up all US military bases and provide defense using its own military. What a waste of money! Now I realize why Abe and company wanted to get rid of the US made constitution as it will be the first step of many to close down the US bases in Japan. Hopefully Suga can get this done!

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

200 billion yen annually can be used in a much better way for the citizen of its own county rather than throwing it on the US military. It’s about time that Japan close up all US military bases and provide defense using its own military. What a waste of money! Now I realize why Abe and company wanted to get rid of the US made constitution as it will be the first step of many to close down the US bases in Japan. Hopefully Suga can get this done!

Very well said.Soviets left eastern Europe 3 decades ago,now its time for Yankees to go back home from Japan.Japan is adult and sovereign country,not your puppet or colony.

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

If the US wants to cut costs of keeping their troops in Japan, the best thing to do would be to let Japan fully rearm itself (including nukes) and withdraw all US military from Japan.

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

The plain fact of the matter is Japan is stuck in the middle between the US and an increasingly assertive China. Japan has three choices, 1) keep strong ties with the US to keep China and North Korea at arms length, 2) ditch the US, swallow it’s pride and suck up to China, or 3) take its chances by going it alone. Sticking with the US is the safest bet but not without its own downsides. The US is a declining power and not as reliable as it once was. And it’s going to get increasingly expensive to keep the US around.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

With a growing looming and more hostile China, not likely to happen.

What, you think China and the US are going to get in a ground war?

4 ( +6 / -2 )

A country that has 800 bases around the world and yet, somehow, it's always the other guy who starts trouble...pffft

0 ( +6 / -6 )

The U.S. side touts as if the U.S. military presence in Japan were solely for the defense of Japan. The USFJ brass keep telling the Japanese people that their service members are always ready to sacrifice their life to defend Japan. 

It is in this vein that Washington intends to demand Japan's share of maintaining U.S. bases be quadrupled to $8 billion.

So this may be a good chance for Japan to call their bluff and demand all U.S bases be closed and returned once and for all.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

No country in their right mind would seal an agreement of any kind now with the current situation in the U.S.

5 ( +12 / -7 )

OssanAmerica,

Seems you're flustered by being hit in the nerve.

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

They should leave Japan. Period. Guam is nearby.

1 ( +8 / -7 )

All this worry about China, China, China. China has shown no interest in anywhere without some sort of historical claim. The Senkaku islands? Japan showed no interest in those until the Pacific War period and now so many act like Japan is going to bleed dry without them. Its utterly ridiculous. Japan's pacifist constitution is fine, even as the Japanese violate it with the so-called Self Defense Force. The constitution can stay as is and the American military can pack up and all go home. I am sick of my tax yen going to them and knowing they are not here to defend Japan but rather to defend American interests just rankles. The only renegotiation that should happen is one where they finally give back Japanese land and hopefully just go back to their own country.

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

How crazy to do such sensitive talking by video link negotiations... Why not officially invite Chinese , Russians and NK so that their hacking-in can be spared? lol Don’t you know that it runs also through their IT servers or can be intercepted while connected over satellite connections or when submarines listen and decrypt what runs through ocean communication cables? Please, think before you do or touch anything, omg.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

No country on the planet should be paying tribute to the US to serve as an outpost of its global military hegemony. That crap should have ended with the fall of the Roman Empire.

1 ( +8 / -7 )

($1.9 billion) annually including on-base utility fees, civilian labor costs and expenses. The civilian labor costs are for primarily the over sized local national employees. Cut the non essential employees, as it doesn't take 5 people to paint a room, point being, you have 1 guy checking the paint, 1 guy standing checking to see the guy checking the paint, 1 guy to see the actual guy painting, 1 guy who is the safety guy and 1 guy who is the chief. So in reality you have 1 guy painting a 8k room. hmmm.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Man,that plane sure looks tatty and torn.

It must have seen a lot of flight hours.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Japan-U.S. Security Treaty…..

https://www.mofa.go.jp/region/n-america/us/q&a/ref/1.html

It is essential to diplomatically and politically determine the twenty first century realities.  

To an agreement reflecting a 1960 security treaty.

Stipulating an inherent right of individual or collective self-defence as affirmed in the Charter of the United Nations.

The tone and the structure of this statement is open to all manner of interpretations

Would any US administration be prepared to enter into armed conflict, if the Government of China instigated a seizure of Senkaku Islands.

I and skeptical.  

No, a political fudge would and could be a political escape route.

The Government of China, is aware of President Trumps political and diplomatic inexperience, and Joe Biden ineptitude in office towards the Government of China militarization of sandcastles in the South China Sea.

Japan is and has been for some time a forward base, to repel existential threat.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

voiceofokinawaToday  12:35 pm JST

OssanAmerica,

Seems you're flustered by being hit in the nerve.

No idea what you are talking about.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

The Government of Japan must independently decide its own future security arrangements to suit the country’s needs.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

OssanAmerica,

No idea what you are talking about

If Tokyo, pressed under a public opinion, asked Washington to withdraw all its troops from Japan completely, instead of agreeing to Washington's demand to quadruple the sympathy budget, how do you think Washington would respond?

?

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

voiceofokinawaToday  04:21 pm JST

OssanAmerica,

No idea what you are talking about

If Tokyo, pressed under a public opinion, asked Washington to withdraw all its troops from Japan completely, instead of agreeing to Washington's demand to quadruple the sympathy budget, how do you think Washington would respond?

Firstly, you are fantasizing about both Japanese public opinion and Japanese government policy. Secondly you are assuming that the US position would be same under the Trump administration and the next one. Which is exactly why I said no country would agree to anything until after the election. Hope that helps

1 ( +5 / -4 )

Trump wants to make the US military a profit making business, which is totally immoral. South Korea and Japan share in the cost of having American military forces in their countries, but the idea that they should pay more than the actual cost sickens me.

A shared military interest should mean a shared cost, not one side paying all the costs.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

"The Senkaku islands? Japan showed no interest in those until the Pacific War period"

Are you for real?

I do not normally use Wiki sources; I am too sexy for this sort of thing.

However, given the ignorant statement I shall make an exception to the rule:

"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands_dispute#/media/File:Senkaku_bonito.jpg"

Over 300 Japanese people lived on the Senkakus at the turn of the 19 century.

China only started showing interest in 1968!

History is beautiful, innit?

1 ( +5 / -4 )

History is beautiful, innit?

REAL history is. But the lies and obfuscations are ugly. First thing is, when I said the Pacific War period, I did not mean WWII as Europeans view it. I was talking about when Japan started invading neighbors. According to one of my favorite historians, that began, with what is commonly called the first Sino-Japanese war, in 1894 where Japan invaded Manchuria, saw some fighting in Korea, and fully invaded Taiwan. While there was talk of taking the Diaoyou/ Senkaku islands before this, Japan waited to do it until it was ready to invade Taiwan. This was because it was considered as part of Taiwan and not part of the Ryukyu Kingdom. And this is further evidenced by the fact that Japan administered the islands as part of Taiwan after invading Taiwan and the fact they only had Chinese names at that time, even among Japanese. The name "Senkaku" was only contrived later.

Did you actually read your own Wiki link? Seems you didn't.

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

The host nation support budget is actually an internal-to-Japan stimulus with the side benefit of keeping Mr. Trump happy. The construction projects on the US bases always wind up going to LDP-favored contractors, and the rest of the money stimulates local Japanese employment in the places the bases are located. So it's three-for-the-price of one: buying a one-sided alliance* with one of the most powerful countries in the world, doling out money to your political supporters, and helping offset the tough conditions around the bases with lots of featherbedding jobs. [One-sided alliance means the USA has to come to Japan's aid if attacked; but Japan is under no obligation to come to the USA's aid if it is attacked.] It's the best deal, maybe ever!

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Oh look. A guy who chose as his user name the name of one of the most horrific and prolific evil war criminals to ever walk the planet has decided to challenge me. How quaint!

Dubious claims you mean. China will claim the moon next

Dubious claim? Yes. Your claim that China will surely claim the moon was indeed dubious. Up until the 1930s Japan could have taken (barely) the moral high ground of being less greedy than China. But then Japan totally outdid China in a few short years, attacking and occupying country after country across Asia. Even now, and since long before China started expanding rocks in the ocean, Japan was doing that at Okinotorishima, and is now using to claim nearly as much ocean EEZ as Japan has land. If claims to the moon are to be feared, Japan is ahead of China in that line.

If historical claims are the criteria then Britain, France and Spain should go about reclaiming their colonies since their claims are more tenable than anything China says.

Abject nonsense since the historical claims of others pre-date the colonies.

keep on calling out the US for antagonizing China.

They have been and were since before China started militarizing. Its obvious that the U.S. antagonizing China is the entire reason China started to militarize and assert so many claims decades after Tibet followed by silence.

I don't approve of Chinese claims much either, but China is just playing catch up in a game started by the U.S. and Japan long before China arrived on the scene. Anyone not liking the rules of this game should have criticized Japan and the U.S. long ago. But they didn't and now whine about how the game is played. Pathetic.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

It's the best deal, maybe ever!

Its only a good deal for leeches and moochers. Its not good for the Japanese people in general at all. Its especially bad for the Okinawan people in general. There would be many more actually productive jobs created on that land if only the U.S. imperial brute squad would pack up and go home.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

Leftists believe that the US uses polls to elect presidents. But that is not true, we have an electoral college, one vote for every member of congress in each of fifty separate states. There is no doubt who will be reelected.

Trump has done an admirable job.

Reason and Wisdom? America rebuilt Japan. It no longer has a television or motorcycle industry for that reason. Stop whining.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Japan should stall. This US regime asking for such an unreasonable expenditure is soon to lose the US elections. Just tell Pompeo or whoever that the video app is on the blink and you'll probably have it up and running on the 4th of next month.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

OssanAmerica,

Secondly you are assuming that the US position would be same under the Trump administration and the next one.

Of course, I'm assuming the fundamental psition of the U.S. government as regards Japan's share of the operating costs of U.S. bases commonly known in Japan as "the sympathy budget" that the U.S. side euphemistically calls "host-nation support" won't change whoever may occupy the White House.

In 2018, Trump hinted Japan must shoulder 1.5 times more than the current amount. Now, he  says Japan's share must quadruple to $8 billion. Other governments may differ from the Trump administration only as regards the amount of the money but the fundamental position will be sure to remain the same.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Would love to see the US stop acting as the "World's Policeman". Thankfully, Trump seems to be headed in that direction... he'll soon have 4 more years to get it done and then folks can fend for themselves.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

" According to one of my favorite historians, that began, with what is commonly called the first Sino-Japanese war, in 1894 where Japan invaded Manchuria"

Well, according to my favourite historians, that began when Toyotomi invaded Korea.

A friend is adamant it started when Ulysses arbitrated the Ryukyu issue.

For me, it stated when the first Yayoi took offence of a kimchi lunch he did not enjoy; that's when real the Pacific War started,

"Foreign Ministry's 1969 China map identifies Senkaku Islands by Japanese name"

"https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/03/17/national/politics-diplomacy/foreign-ministrys-1969-china-map-identifies-senkaku-islands-by-japanese-name/"

And then there was silence in Peking.

"Did you actually read your own Wiki link? Seems you didn't."

Too right; I don't read Wiki. As previously stated, I'm too sexy for that.

Used it for the lovely pic though.

Could you post any pics evidencing Chinese persons living there?

Or Chinese markings, buildings, construction foundations of any nature on the islands.

Please?

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Why ???.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Did you actually read your own Wiki link? Seems you didn't

Sigh. Google god uber alles. On line Wiki's are no substitute for actual research. I have first hand experience with events the on-line Wikis get wrong. They are subject to distortions by groups pushing a certain narrative who bombard the wiki page with false information.

As a member of the allies in WW Japan was awarded all of Germany's Pacific Ocean colonies except Northern New Guinea at the close of WWI. Japan gained a vast Pacific island empire from the defeated Germans including the Solomons, Bismark Archipelago, Truk and others. Subsequently the US had to fight its way across those very same islands at great cost to defeat the Japanese. It was up to the UN and the US to sort out their eventual ownership after WWII. By then China had become a communist enemy and by 1950 the US was engaged in combat with Chinese forces in Korea. Only the worst kind of barking idiot would think the US would, in light of China's turn to communism, support those very same communists taking control of land US forces had to bleed to capture. Mao often aided the Japanese providing them with information on Chiang Kai-shek's forces so they could attack them. Did you really think the US would then support giving any of these many islands to PRC? It's a laughable proprosition, one only a naive fool believes. By then the cold war was on and those islands became a critical means to contain both the Chinese and the Soviets. Little has changed and as long as CCP rules China they can just pound sand on the matter. In any event those small islands have had Japanese living on them off and on for many centuries. You are also supremely naive about the intentions of China and from what I have read of yours you do not understand that country at all. Until the 18th Century Mandarin didn't even have a word for diplomatic recognition of another nation. It was a completely alien concept. China was the Middle Kingdom to which all surrounding nations paid tribute. The idea that other nations were equal to China didn't exist. The Chinese still think all surrounding nations should pay tribute to them and do as they are told. An obtw, they still very much want to destroy Japan as punishment for WWII. Only US forces stop them from doing so.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Desert Tortoise:

The Chinese still think all surrounding nations should pay tribute to them and do as they are told. An obtw, they still very much want to destroy Japan as punishment for WWII. Only US forces stop them from doing so.

That's the Sino-centrism you are talking about, a ghost in past history, but you claim it's still there, alive. Note, however, that there is an on-going ethnocentric idea called Americentrism or U.S.-centrism today. To say otherwise, it means that all nations in the world must share the same values as the U.S., emulating it in everything -- politics, economy, culture and all.

So, if what you say about China is true, a rising confrontation between China and the U.S. today may be a clash between two ethnocentric entities, each seeking hegemony to dominate the world.

Then your claim that China is a threat is like the pot calling the kettle black.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

On line Wiki's are no substitute for actual research. I have first hand experience with events the on-line Wikis get wrong. They are subject to distortions by groups pushing a certain narrative who bombard the wiki page with false information.

And yet you have zip to say about that particular wiki article on Diaoyu/ Senkaku islands. I read the above and then skimmed the second paragraph for precise criticisms of that entry and saw nothing. So I stopped reading. Its a common and old theme people bashing wiki in general and utterly failing to offer a single specific. Old I say. Tired. Please up your game. The wiki on Diaoyu/ Senkaku islands was fine, so no need to go off on Wiki in general. Bye.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Could you post any pics evidencing Chinese persons living there?

Or Chinese markings, buildings, construction foundations of any nature on the islands.

Please?

Is this really all you got? For one, the camera did not come into common use until the late 1800s and China's claims are far older than that and evidence they named the islands long before your picture is abundant. For two, the pic you offered is over 100 years old and hardly reflects the utter emptiness of the islands for literally 80 years up to today. Japanese tried to live there, but gave up. 80 years ago. This diminishes their claim, not bolster it, as people actually living there now would have physical possession. As it is today its just talk and history for both sides.

And so some guy in China named the islands Senkaku on a map in the 1960s? Again is that really all you got? All Japanese, ALL OF THEM, who were putting them on maps were naming them as Diaoyu for hundreds of years before that and even called them "Pinnacle Islands" sometimes as the British did. The name "Senkaku" was not even contrived until 1900 and I guess it leaked to that map maker somehow, maybe as China was a revolutionary mess at that time and were probably copying Japanese maps. One guy. One map. In a time of turmoil. Give it up.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

That's the Sino-centrism you are talking about, a ghost in past history, but you claim it's still there, alive. Note, however, that there is an on-going ethnocentric idea called Americentrism or U.S.-centrism today. To say otherwise, it means that all nations in the world must share the same values as the U.S., emulating it in everything -- politics, economy, culture and all.

An uninformed statement. Unlike the Chinese, the US isn't marching people off to concentration camps to forcibly Americanize them. The US doesn't force people to only speak English in school and in public discourse or ban the use of languages in school or elsewhere as is the case of the Uyghurs and now the Mongolians. Quite the opposite since freedom of speech means the freedom to speak any darn language you please the various levels of government including schools and most businesses accommodate many dozen different languages. What you see are people in other nations who admire the US lifestyle and associate political and religious freedoms imitating these in their own countries or they listen to US music and watch US movies. However they are in no way forced to do so and often groups within those nations try to limit, even sometimes, outlaw, aspects of US culture they find objectionable. But the US returned all of the land taken from its enemies in WWII and made their people whole again with the Marshall Plan. The US doesn't have nations running to the UN complaining they have stolen their islands and are stealing their resources in their own EEZs as is the case with China. The US doesn't claim any other nation's sovereign territory as its own as China does, and the US isn't making claims to vast bodies of international waters claiming these as their sovereign territory. The Soviets used to keep AGIs (Auxiliary, Intelligence Gathering) ships right off the US coast, just outside the 12 nautical mile limit and nothing was said. International waters are international waters and as long as the Soviet AGI stayed in international waters there was nothing to say. That is how it's done, not the string of lies coming from Beijing all the time, and from some who post here btw.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

And so some guy in China named the islands Senkaku on a map in the 1960s? 

Senkaku is the Japanese name for these islands. The Chinese call them Diaoyu Dao.

In any event the islands, all of them, were administered by the US from the end of WWII until the return of the Ryukyus to Japan in 1972. By then China was a communist enemy. The US gave them to Japan and tough luck for China. China needs to democratize before they can talk about territorial claims with other democratic nations. Until then they can pound sand. Threats of using force to take what they do not now control isn't the way to do it. Since it was the US who held those island after the bitter fight to take the Ryukyus from Japan in WWII and gave them to the Japanese afterwards in my opinion it is the US right to defend their continued ownership by Japan. I honestly do not care what the Chinese think about that other than they need to know they will get a good pounding if they ever try taking them by force. Raw force is the only thing the CCP understands. No it's not nice but too bad.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Desert Tortoise,

Unlike the Chinese, the US isn't marching people off to concentration camps to forcibly Americanize them. The US doesn't force people to only speak English in school and in public discourse or ban the use of languages in school or elsewhere as is the case of the Uyghurs and now the Mongolians.

The pot calls the kettle clack.

Native Americans are thought to have numbered 5 million to 15 million in North America when Columbus arrived in 1949. By the late 19th century, they numbered 238,000, a sharp decline to 4.7% to 1.6%. What happened to them and their land? They were slaughtered in the name of "civilization". Their land was lost with the westward advance of American settlers.

The westward expansion of the frontier didn't end with the Wounded Knee Massacre of 1890. Commodore Matthew Perry had already sounded out his thought about occupying Ryukyu with Washington in case Tokugawa Japan didn’t open its doors along the line he demanded. He even intimidated Japanese delegates by saying the U.S. would invade Japan unless they conceded. But the Japanese negotiator knew it was impossible for them to do so due to logistics. That scheme to occupy Okinawa came true when the U.S. won the Battle of Okinawa in 1945, 87 years later since 1858.

You say Okinawa was returned to Japan, and the U.S. has no square inches of land in Okinawa. Yes, Okinawa was returned to Japan in 1972, but the return was nominative; only the administrative right was returned. The vast swaths of land were still in the hands of the U.S., which uses them as bases like their own territories.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

(Re-entered after some correction.)

Desert Tortoise,

Unlike the Chinese, the US isn't marching people off to concentration camps to forcibly Americanize them. The US doesn't force people to only speak English in school and in public discourse or ban the use of languages in school or elsewhere as is the case of the Uyghurs and now the Mongolians.

The pot calls the kettle black.

Native Americans are thought to have numbered 5 million to 15 million in North America when Columbus arrived in 1492. By the late 19th century, they numbered 238,000, a sharp decline to 4.7% to 1.6%. What happened to them and their land? They were slaughtered in the name of "civilization". Their land was usurped with the westward advance of American settlers.

The westward expansion of the frontier didn't end with the Wounded Knee Massacre of 1890. Commodore Matthew Perry had already sounded out his thought about occupying Ryukyu with Washington in case Tokugawa Japan didn’t open its doors along the line he demanded. He even intimidated Japanese delegates by saying the U.S. would invade and occupy Japan unless they conceded. But the chief Japanese negotiator knew it was impossible for them to do so due to logistics and so wasn't cringed at all. That scheme to occupy Okinawa came true 87 years later when the U.S. won the Battle of Okinawa in 1945.

You say Okinawa was returned to Japan, and the U.S. has no square inches of land in Okinawa. Yes, Okinawa was returned to Japan in 1972, but the return was only nominal: what was returned was only the administrative right to the islands; the vast swaths of land were still in the hands of the U.S. intact, which uses them with impunity like their own territories. When we ask some bases be returned, the U.S. will never fail to demand their replacements be provided. The retrun of Futenma Air Station and U.S. Army Naha Port Facility are the cases in point.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Threats of using force to take what they do not now control isn't the way to do it.

You speak out both sides of your mouth. We all know how the U.S. acquired most of its land which was by force, just as you say the U.S. acquired Diaoyu/ the Senakakus. Now you say the threat of force is out? So, then only real force should be used?

Raw force is the only thing the CCP understands.

Seems to be only damned thing anybody understands in the end. Look at you starting out by advocating it then pivoting to denouncing it. Its obvious you have zero concern for fair play whatsoever and only care for choosing a side. Then when it comes to blows I am sure you will whine incessantly about whose fault it was.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

all know how the U.S. acquired most of its land which was by force, just as you say the U.S. acquired Diaoyu/ the Senakakus. Now you say the threat of force is out? So, then only real force should be used?

that chip on your shoulder is affecting your typing. USA, was attacked by Japan, it reluctantly entered the war. It ended up the victor, rights of conquest, it gave most of its conquest up post war.

China on the other hand was the looser, it has no legal rights to anything. It is now using force, during peace time, to steal territories.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Seems to be only damned thing anybody understands in the end. Look at you starting out by advocating it then pivoting to denouncing it. Its obvious you have zero concern for fair play whatsoever and only care for choosing a side. Then when it comes to blows I am sure you will whine incessantly about whose fault it was.

Where did I advocate initiating the use of military force against China? Read my words carefully madam. I advocate having sufficient military power and a credible threat to use it as the correct and necessary way to deter China or Russia from using force to take other nation's sovereign territory or asserting control of international waters and airspace. If you actually have to resort to force then you have failed as a nation to deter your enemy. With a nation like China that military is going to have to be very powerful to deter them from acquiring other nations's sovereign territory or from preventing free use of international waters when they make illegal claims to them. They'll screw with Vietnamese fishing boats and oil drilling ships but they won't screw with US flagged ships because they know the US has the means to defeat their navy if the Chinese try to violate US sovereignty or the right to freely use international waters and airspace. That big Navy and Air Force keeps China from trying to close off the whole SCS or taking the Senkaku Islands, both of which they dearly wish to do. Saying the US won't do anything is an immediate invitation to the very war you claim to abhor. What is it lady, deterrence or war? Can't have peace without deterrence when you are dealing with a government like the CCP.

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You say Okinawa was returned to Japan, and the U.S. has no square inches of land in Okinawa. Yes, Okinawa was returned to Japan in 1972, but the return was only nominal: what was returned was only the administrative right to the islands; the vast swaths of land were still in the hands of the U.S. intact, which uses them with impunity like their own territories. When we ask some bases be returned, the U.S. will never fail to demand their replacements be provided. The retrun of Futenma Air Station and U.S. Army Naha Port Facility are the cases in point.

The US kept its many military installations, almost 19% of prefecture territory, but doesn't govern the island as it did until 1972. It is a Japanese prefecture like any other now. The Japanese elect their representatives to local and central government offices and manage their own affairs. Most of the land the bases are on is owned by the Japanese government. Some have SDF bases on them along with the US forces. If those bases were removed Okinawa would soon become a Chinese territory. Do not be naive and kid yourself otherwise. Some Chinese consider Okinawa to be as legitimately Chinese territory as they do the Senkaku Islands and Taiwan. Given the opportunity they would take these lands and subjugate them under the CCP.

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Desert Tortoise,

Okinawa was returned to Japan in 1972 all right, but it was only the administrative right that was returned. So, as you say, the U.S. doesn't administer or  "reign" it like they did till 1972. But the bases and damages derived from them remained all the same.

It's not 19% of land mass only that the U.S. forces occupy for bases. They also use vast air and sea space for training. Like some U.S. brass said, it's not the U.S. bases that are in Okinawa but it's Okinawa that is in the U.S. bases.     

Hawaii's U.S. military bases account for 5.7% of all its land areas. Hawaii is a genuine U.S. territory but Okinawa is not. And yet, U.S. military bases occupy 19% of Okinawa's land mass. An abnormal situation indeed. No doubt, a substantial occupation is still going on in Okinawa.

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If you look at a map showing U.S. bases and military training areas in Okinawa, on land, at sea and in the air (Cf. "U.S. Bases in Okinawa" compiled by Okinawa Prefecture (https://www.pref.okinawa.jp/site/chijiko/kichitai/tyosa/documents/p07.pdf)), you will understand why it's true to say that Okinawa locates in the U.S. bases and therefore that it's still being occupied by the U.S. military even today.

Isn’t it a laughing matter then the U.S. is thinking of collecting money from Japanese taxpayers, four times more than the current annual amount of $2 billion, for their using of these bases and areas? Shouldn’t it be the other way round? If they didn’t like it, their forces should pack up and go home immediately.

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