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Japanese academics join calls for gov't to face up to responsibility over 'comfort women'

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Japanese conservatives, however, say no official documents prove government involvement in the system; they say the women were common prostitutes engaged in a commercial exchange.

DOH...the IJA burned them all!

11 ( +16 / -5 )

There will be a few regular commenters on these pages feeling betrayed this morning.

18 ( +19 / -1 )

A real apology should represent the collective will of the Japanese people done through the Diet. What is the Diet for? When the U.S. apologized for Japanese war internment during World War 2, Congress passed the law and Reagan signed it and paid compensation to Japanese victims. Doesn't the Japanese government have any honor?

20 ( +22 / -2 )

I've seen this reporting in other places but not one provides actual names of scholar that participates in this.

-7 ( +3 / -10 )

Whilst it is good to read that the Japanese academics want the sex slave issue addressed I would have also liked them to mention (and maybe they have in their statement) the revising of history text books being taught at schools. This is really important as this is where Japan's future lies otherwise Japan risks having future PM's worse than Abe.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

@CrazyJoe

And what about apology and compensation for Korean women, forced to provide sex to US troops during the Korean war and after? Doesn't the US government have any honor?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Excellent news. Are you listnening Mr Abe?

8 ( +13 / -5 )

Instead of rehashing the usual, here's one I find more interesting. Should the whole comfort women business be resolved against these liberals what should be done with them?

-14 ( +3 / -17 )

However, Abe has said he stands by previous pronouncements, but questions the need for Japan to repeatedly apologise for events more than seven decades ago.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

That's neither here nor there, as we are not talking about Korea, the US

From the article: Mainstream historians say around 200,000 women, mostly from Korea .

From the thread I replied to: When the U.S. apologized for Japanese war internment during World War 2, Congress passed the law

Well, we also were talking about Korea and the US. Please pay attention.

-11 ( +1 / -12 )

That's neither here nor there, as we are not talking about Korea, the US

From the article: Mainstream historians say around 200,000 women, mostly from Korea .

Yes, the victims were Korean, but the topic at hand has nothing to do with the US government, nor the Korean government.

From the thread I replied to: When the U.S. apologized for Japanese war internment during World War 2, Congress passed the law

It does not say that anywhere in this article.

Please pay attention.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

certain politicians and sections of the media are essentially conveying to the rest of the world that Japan does not respect human rights,

Ya think?

4 ( +5 / -1 )

A separate open letter with similar warnings was issued earlier this month signed by several hundred academics, many from Europe and the U.S. and including Pulitzer Prize winners.

Mainstream historians say around 200,000 women, mostly from Korea but also from other Asian nations, were systematically raped by Japan’s imperial forces in military brothels.

Do we have to deal with this BS even after "several hundred academics, many from Europe and the U.S. and including Pulitzer Prize winners" denied such number? Read the "open letter with similar warnings issued earlier this month signed by several hundred academics, many from Europe and the U.S. and including Pulitzer Prize winners". https://networks.h-net.org/node/22055/discussions/69206/open-letter-support-historians-japan#replies

Historians disagree over the precise number of “comfort women,” which will probably never be known for certain. Establishing sound estimates of victims is important. But ultimately, whether the numbers are judged to have been in the tens of thousands or the hundreds of thousands will not alter the fact of the exploitation carried out throughout the Japanese empire and its war zones.

Next is a typical strawman argument. By writing such sophistry the article will contribute nothing for the victims.

Japanese conservatives, however, say no official documents prove government involvement in the system

Next,

They have also argued that memories of the survivors cannot be trusted

As people study the testimonies more, things get more confusing. Read some of the testimonies at US Congressional hearing. http://archives.republicans.foreignaffairs.house.gov/110/33317.pdf

-20 ( +2 / -22 )

Sixteen academic societies—including the Historical Science Society of Japan—said the country must “squarely” acknowledge responsibility for the system of sex slavery, in a move that could add fuel to Chinese and Korean claims of a growing official amnesia ahead of the 70th anniversary of the end of World War II.

Wow. So when a couple of weeks ago, a similar position was taken by U.S. professors, all the Japanophiles said that they did not know all the facts, or, were just nosy oustiders who should leave Japan alone. There goes those arguments. I mean you would think the "Historical Science Society of Japan" would have access to all the facts, and you can't get much more inside than that.

14 ( +19 / -5 )

Does it occur to anyone that in WWII we were very actively looking for anything that we could use to prosecute the certain countrieJapanese military and yet this "slavery and constant rape" in the military prostittion system never arose? The only incident that did arise was in Dutch Indonsia and those responsible were charged tried amd convicted. How did 200,000 womem getting kidnapped and constantly raped avoid getting noticed? And has it occurred to anyone that the Comfort Womem system, whuch incdentally was not the only military brothel system in the world at the time, was a crime against Women? Yet certain countries have turned this into a political issue as if it was a crime against their countries. Sexual Slavery and Human Traffikig goes on today, it's not political it's criminal.

-21 ( +5 / -26 )

LOL at CH3CHO for cherry picking parts of the letter that supports the Japanese view, while ignoring 99% of the rest of the letter. Hey CH3CHO, why don't you say respond to the rest of the letter? Do you think people here are stupid that they can't read the entire English translation of the letter by those 400 historians? It's the same Japanese government controlled Japanese media that plays, and I'm pretty sure this news won't get printed in Japan. If it does, the Japanese media will some how distort it.

16 ( +17 / -1 )

jerseyboyMay. 27, 2015 - 10:31AM JST

Wow. So when a couple of weeks ago, a similar position was taken by U.S. professors, all the Japanophiles said that they did not know all the facts, or, were just nosy oustiders who should leave Japan alone.

Japan is proud of its freedom of academic studies. You can see all kinds of views, and marginal views are also welcome.

But the views expressed by the 16 groups does not cite any source, and I find it unconvincing.

CrazyJoeMay. 27, 2015 - 08:04AM JST

A real apology should represent the collective will of the Japanese people done through the Diet. What is the Diet for?

What Diet is is written in the Constitution. It does not have any formal power in diplomacy and any "apologizing" resolution is unbinding.

-16 ( +4 / -20 )

But the views expressed by the 16 groups does not cite any source, and I find it unconvincing.

Obviously they are traitors to Japan or they are hiding their Korean ethnicity. I can see where you people will steer this towards.

10 ( +12 / -2 )

HotmailMay. 27, 2015 - 10:49AM JST

Do you think people here are stupid that they can't read the entire English translation of the letter by those 400 historians? It's the same Japanese government controlled Japanese media that plays, and I'm pretty sure this news won't get printed in Japan. If it does, the Japanese media will some how distort it.

Hello, Hotmail. Nice to see you again.

In the other thred, I have commented Japanese media has already reported the letter. http://www.japantoday.com/category/politics/view/academics-call-on-japan-to-face-up-to-its-history#comment_1974486

You responded. http://www.japantoday.com/category/politics/view/academics-call-on-japan-to-face-up-to-its-history#comment_1974512

HotmailMay. 08, 2015 - 09:53PM JST

I read through CH3CO's Japanese media links to this story, including NHK, and all of them are reporting that the world historians are on Japan's side.

By reading all of my links, you must have noticed Asahi reported word by word translation of the letter. So, you knew that it WAS reported without bias.

-10 ( +4 / -14 )

We don't want embarrass the US. The Japanese government set up a brothel system to service US servicemen in occupation Japan so they would not bother ordinary women. It is known that many women were sex slaves (i.e, "comfort women"), some of whom where Korean or Chinese women originally brought over to Japan during the war as slave labor. So the US soldiers used the sex slave system here in Japan. McArthur finally "abolished" the system about a year into occupation because a quarter of the soldiers had STDs. Actually, the system was privatized. It continued in Kabukicho and Shinjuku-ni-chome (before it went gay).

-12 ( +4 / -16 )

The full text of the declaration and the impressive list of historical associations that put their name to it is here http://rekiken.jp/english/appeals/appeal_20150525.html I wish that they had included a bibliography.

9 ( +9 / -0 )

This news just made my day. Maybe, just maybe the tide is turning. I won't hold my breath though

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I believe the important thing to note is that academics are speaking up. Another article in today's JT was on the court ruling to award teachers compensation for being punished for not standing and singing the national anthem. It's important to note that during the war, academics who spoke out against the militarist government were immediately imprisoned and that Abe's gran pappy Kishi in all his right wing McCarthy thought did the same to the academics who spoke out against the government. Stifling freedom of thought and dictating education is dangerous and needs to be thoroughly monitored. Patriotism is borne naturally when a people believes that its country is just and compassionate whereas nationalism is force fed to whip up hysteria to serve the government's interest. Or I should say the interests of the elite few who profit from such nonsense.

11 ( +12 / -1 )

But the views expressed by the 16 groups does not cite any source, and I find it unconvincing.

Pardon me CH3CHO if I find that logic "unconvincing". This was a letter, not a thesis or published article in some type of historical journal. It does not require sources, footnotes, etc. But keep clutching at those straws if it makes you happy.

18 ( +20 / -2 )

Now that a large number of reputed Japanese historical associations, have declared that forced recruitment went on will it be agreed that the comfort women system was one of sexual slavery in the literal sense -- as for instance stated on the wikipedia page for "comfort women" -- and will Japan be required to act, or otherwise act, accordingly?

It seems appropriate to me that upon that view of history -- an act of evil so palpable and abhorrent on such a massive scale -- successive Japanese prime ministers would be expected and advised to abase themselves in apology regularly for the foreseeable future, if not forever. In fact, I would like to apologize to the victims and East Asians in general for those events, having chosen nonetheless to make Japan my home.

8 ( +8 / -0 )

Kazuaki, CH3CHO, and OssanAmerica are all really, really wishing these guys were not Japanese they could say it was some Chinese or Korean conspiracy, say they were uninformed foreigners, or any of the other litany of excuses to deny what really happened and make up their own versions! HAHAHA!

Kazuaki: "No, Moonraker, we already know they exist and are wondering when they'll open their big mouths."

So, why is it they have 'big mouths'? Because you don't like what they have to say, or just because they said it and didn't keep quiet like you wish they would on this and other historical issues?

"Instead of rehashing the usual, here's one I find more interesting. Should the whole comfort women business be resolved against these liberals what should be done with them?"

Wow, what is this? A Nazi nation? I know the right-wingers like to praise Nazi tactics and practices, like Aso, and various other politicians, but "what should we do with them"?? You DO realize that you ask this kind of question in defense of Japanese atrocities and coercion of women into sexual slavery, right?

Moderator: Kazuaki, CH3CHO, and OssanAmerica can post for themselves. They don't need you spouting this rubbish. Please do better.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

70 more years before this is settled in japan.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Japan already had apologised to Korea, many times from recent years and paid for those wemen, everytime. Japan made Yen loan for Korea now they have that for to build good nation but, they don't care of it and craim to Japan again& again. Then , why Korea request more & more, they said they will cotinue screaming request for 3000 years from now, how many times should we apologise them?, How much money do they want? We cannot understand their government. Main issue of their govt. seems to discount Japan. WTF!

-13 ( +1 / -14 )

Danny Bloom: "70 more years before this is settled in japan."

It will never, and should never, be settled until Japanese politicians acknowledge it properly and dually apologize. Instead, you have people covering it up and accusing historians of having 'ulterior motives and being hired by South Koreans' or other excuses to deny it. Now you also have Japanese historians joining in the world-wide call for the issue to be called what it is -- sexual slavery -- and the victims addressed for what they are -- victims. When you still have politicians and posters on here saying the women were willing prostitutes and/or that all historians save the right-wing REVISIONISTS are liars, well, you get what we have here.

Moonraker is right, there must be a few posters feeling quite betrayed right now.

13 ( +13 / -0 )

Japan already had apologised to Korea, many times from recent years and paid for those wemen, everytime. Japan made Yen loan for Korea now they have that for to build good nation but, they don't care of it and craim to Japan again& again. Then , why Korea request more & more, they said they will cotinue screaming request for 3000 years from now, how many times should we apologise them?, How much money do they want? We cannot understand their government. Main issue of their govt. seems to discount Japan. WTF!

And denied, and denied, and denied. Are you surprised they haven't "move on" yet? If they were truly sorry, would they not also be teaching the things they had apologised and compensated for in their textbooks?

9 ( +9 / -0 )

Japan should be ASHAMED!!!

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Naka Nash JpMay. 27, 2015 - 03:35PM JST

Japan already had apologised to Korea, many times from recent years and paid for those wemen,

Such acts are soon to be forgotten by Koreans. Actually, there was a very interesting testimony at the US Congressional hearing on comfort women. http://archives.republicans.foreignaffairs.house.gov/110/33317.pdf

(page 36)

Ms. KIM(former comfort woman). I have never received Asian Women’s Fund.

ADDITIONAL WRITTEN INFORMATION RECEIVED FROM MS. KOON JA KIM AFTER THE HEARING

I did in fact receive money from the Asian Women’s Fund, as it is private fund not related to the Japanese government. I immediately donated all of the money to the Beautiful Foundation to further their campaign of encouraging a healthy culture of philanthropy.

They will just continue the campaign.

-13 ( +2 / -15 )

They will just continue the campaign.

On this we agree. Until every Japanese person is correctly educated on historical events - 1931-1945 in particular.

8 ( +9 / -1 )

Nobody should be forced to apologise for what a minority did 70 years ago. We don't expect Muslims to apologise for things done in their name on a daily basis, why would this be any different? We think in generalisations but we live in specifics. None that are being forced to apologise had anything to do with it. Apply you pressure elsewhere, there are more productive things to agitate for. You western idiots take your white guilt and shove it up your arse, it helps no one.

-13 ( +0 / -13 )

@CH3CHO - At it again are you? LOL You sure love to throw the straw man fallacy around but seem to enjoy a fallacy of your own continuously. That would be "Hasty Generalizations". You assume that just because a few people were unreliable in their testimony that the whole are also lying as well. A few bad examples and you are willing to just say, "See, that proves it. It did not happen". Do you actually think that all of these women were just prostitutes? I am really curious as to that one. I for one do not believe that they were all forced.

Are you forgetting that in Japanese culture, prostitution did not carry as much stigma as in the West? Surviving documents in Japanese government archives, corroborated by photographic evidence and the recollections of both Japanese soldiers and the comfort women themselves, show that the Army transported comfort women to the forward areas, set up comfort stations, and regulated their activities. What remains controversial is how many comfort women were recruited, from what backgrounds, and to what extent they were voluntary participants in the system. But you would believe that they were all just prostitutes right?

The Korean women were wanted most of all so as the troops could be free from venereal disease because it took so much time for them to get over VD and they would be dead weight to the ARMY during that time as well. Yes, the comfort women did not come forward until decades after the fact, which is something that deniers and nationalist love to point out and how they must be lying or something. It does not necessarily impeach their testimony though. Traditional Korean culture attaches a very high value to female virginity, and those comfort women who came from Korea had little to gain and much to lose from coming forward. But they did. And now they are called liars by people who know that their own government destroyed as much incriminating evidence as it could

Do you know why such little proof documented proof exists? You are always asking “Where is the proof?” Kind of unfair seeing as the Japanese government burned as much as it could and what it could not buried.

One surviving document following Japan’s surrender was submitted to the International Military Tribunal for the Far East (Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal) by a former senior official at the War Ministry. In the document, the author admitted to having instructed troops to burn documents on Aug. 14, 1945--the day before Japan’s surrender.

The Japanese military destroyed most of its records on the announcement of the surrender, and only limited written documentation regarding the comfort women survived. There are other known cases of destruction orders. One came directly from the Ministry of Great East Asia ordering Japanese diplomatic missions in China and other nations to destroy all key documents. Records and testimonies by former officials at the Foreign Ministry and Home Ministry also show that orders were given to destroy official documentation.

So, by your logic, we should believe the Japanese government, which burned as many documents as possible over the words of people who were the actually victims, just because the Japanese government conveniently does not have any documents to definitively prove that the comfort women are lying nor anything to prove that they aren't, just because a few people were a bit "iffy" and unreliable? All of those people , Chinese, Korean, Filipinos, Dutch and so on are just lying? We should trust the people who burned as much evidence as possible, right? WRONG!

14 ( +15 / -1 )

Japan already had apologised to Korea, many times from recent years and paid for those wemen, everytime.

For every apology there are 10,000 denials by right wing LDP politicians.

Why do you think no one brings up Germany in this case? Because Germany apologized for its horrible war crimes sincerely and completely. Even Israel does not look to Germany to apologize for the past. They have done it and the matter is over. But Japan has this problem still because Abe and other regressive losers like him want to refight WW2 with Japan coming out not losing. It is so sad and really damages the country in so many ways.

And the posters here supporting Abe and his whitewashing of history are not patriots for their country although they may think they are. It is like the guys in the black vans playing songs from the 1930s. They are simply a joke, a sad and destructive joke.

11 ( +14 / -3 )

OssanAmericaMAY. 27, 2015 - 10:40AM JST Does it occur to anyone that in WWII we were very actively looking for anything that we could use to prosecute the certain countrieJapanese military and yet this "slavery and constant rape" in the military prostittion system never arose? The only incident that did arise was in Dutch Indonsia and those responsible were charged tried amd convicted. How did 200,000 womem getting kidnapped and constantly raped avoid getting noticed? And has it occurred to anyone that the Comfort Womem system, whuch incdentally was not the only military brothel system in the world at the time, was a crime against Women? Yet certain countries have turned this into a political issue as if it was a crime against their countries. Sexual Slavery and Human Traffikig goes on today, it's not political it's criminal.

Ossan, had no idea you knew more than professional historians. You really should publish a paper on this. I'm sure you have all the evidence at the ready to blow all other historians in the world out of the water.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

OssanAmerica: "How did 200,000 womem getting kidnapped and constantly raped avoid getting noticed?"

It hasn't, obviously, and hence these historians despite INCONTRAVERTIBLE evidence, and even former Imperial Army troops admitting it? A good question to ask yourself. How can such people live with themselves? an even better question.

"Sexual Slavery and Human Traffikig goes on today"

You're right about that, Ossan:

"Japan is recognized as having one of the most severe human trafficking problems among the major industrialized democracies.4 Japan is a destination country for women and children from East Asia, Southeast Asia, and to a lesser extent, Eastern Europe, Russia, and Latin America who are subjected to sexual and labor exploitation.5 Recruitment techniques are often based on false promises of employment as waitresses, hotel staff, entertainers, or models. Traffickers also use fraudulent marriages between foreign women and Japanese men to facilitate entry of victims into Japan for forced prostitution.

Further, Japan continues to be an international hub for the production and trafficking of child pornography. Japan is home to an immense sex industry that includes a wide variety of commercial sex operation models, including themed-brothels, hostess clubs, escort agencies, ‘snack’ clubs, strip theatres, and street prostitution. Many are owned, controlled, or ‘taxed’ by the Japanese organized crime network, the Yakuza, or increasingly by foreign-based groups such as Korean or Colombian crime networks. Japanese men continue to be a significant source of demand for child sex tourism in Southeast Asia."

That's only the tip of the iceberg, Ossan, and the article goes on to discuss how Japanese officials don't acknowledge it and are often engaged in the corruption (especially of labor trafficking), etc.

http://www.humantrafficking.org/countries/japan

And yes, Ossan -- it is political when it is done by one nation to another (and Japan did it to MANY) and involves politicians, as is the case here.

13 ( +13 / -0 )

sandiegoluvMay. 27, 2015 - 05:50PM JST

What remains controversial is how many comfort women were recruited, from what backgrounds, and to what extent they were voluntary participants in the system.

That is about right.

So, by your logic, we should believe the Japanese government, which burned as many documents as possible

Then why do not we see any private documents, such as letters and diaries in Korea about the "missing girls"? If Japanese army had abducted Korean girls for inafu, at least some of their parents and friends would have recorded the abduction in their letters or diaries at the time. As far as I know, no such private document was found in Korea yet.

-13 ( +0 / -13 )

CH3CHO: "Then why do not we see any private documents, such as letters and diaries in Korea about the "missing girls"? If Japanese army had abducted Korean girls for inafu, at least some of their parents and friends would have recorded the abduction in their letters or diaries at the time. As far as I know, no such private document was found in Korea yet."

And when you can't even take the testimony of both Japanese troops and South Korean, Dutch, Chinese, and Taiwanese, among other, victims seriously you are telling us you would believe the private diary of a Korean?

12 ( +12 / -0 )

smithinjapanMay. 27, 2015 - 07:53PM JST

And when you can't even take the testimony of both Japanese troops and South Korean, Dutch, Chinese, and Taiwanese, among other, victims seriously you are telling us you would believe the private diary of a Korean?

There are a lot of testimonies by Japanese soldiers that they used ianfu. But there is no testimony by Japanese soldiers that they abducted Korean girls.

I have given here the link to US Congressional hearing on comfort women, in which two Korean former ianfu and one Dutch former ianfu testified. The two Koreans each gave written and oral testimonies which contradict each other. That is why I do not take the testimonies by the two Koreans seriously. Generally speaking, testimonies by Koreans have too many inconsistencies. The Dutch woman was rescued by Japanese military police, because the brothel operation was illegal. The Dutch case cannot be generalized.

There are many testimonies by Chinese women of "rapes", but not those of ianfu. We cannot say much about comfort women based on testimonies about random rapes.

-10 ( +0 / -10 )

Tell the truth and shame the devil. What grinds my gears is their unashamedly naked denial and enormous undertakings in trying to hide their evil deeds. A bunch of not so noble and fake nobility.

8 ( +8 / -0 )

Dutch woman was rescued by Japanese military police, because the brothel operation was illegal. The Dutch case cannot be generalized.

I can only just laugh.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

@CH3CHO – I think the wheels must be coming off you bus.

Me: What remains controversial is how many comfort women were recruited, from what backgrounds, and to what extent they were voluntary participants in the system. You: That is about right. Um, which means that you acknowledge that comfort women did exist. And that some of them were recruited, and some of them were not. Notice how it says that “What remains controversial is how many comfort woman were recruited”. It means that the remaining were not. YOU AGREED TO THAT with that statement. It means there is blood on Japanese hands that needs to be washed off. It can not be washed off with water. This takes soul searching and admitting guilt. You can not have it both ways. Some were recruited and other were taken against their will.. Hey, I have admitted that some of them were just prostitutes. So, give a little leeway. Your forefathers burned evidence. The guilty never burn evidence unless it is to save their butts. And there is proof that the evidence was burned.

Me: So, by your logic, we should believe the Japanese government, which burned as many documents as possible You: Then why do not we see any private documents, such as letters and diaries in Korea about the "missing girls"? If Japanese army had abducted Korean girls for inafu, at least some of their parents and friends would have recorded the abduction in their letters or diaries at the time. As far as I know, no such private document was found in Korea yet.

You, my opponent are not very forth right are you? You and I both know the answer to that. It is because it used to be a hermit kingdom and most of the young women who were used came from poor and illiterate families and were illiterate themselves. The country at the time had a literacy rate of less than 15 % at the time. Who was going to write what happened to their girls when they could not even write? NOBODY. You know that and so do I. I am so sad that you would choose that avenue to form a defense. The only thing I can say, is that you really have a desire to prove that your forefathers did nothing wrong. And if you open your eyes and see what is reality instead of what you want to see, you will understand that your forefathers did as well. Trust me. It is a relieving feeling to not have to fight for generations who did horrible things that you had no responsibility for. You did not do all the great things, nor did you do any of the horrible ones. Apologize and let it go. You will feel better. It is not a contest unless you make it one and when you do, everyone loses. It saddens me that you disclaim the testimony of not only so many thousands of foreigners but also your own people who are on the record for admitting the horrible things they did. Is being right so great if it means that you are wrong with reality? Can you continue to live a lie? If so, good luck. The truth will find you.

You are so willing to believe when a Koreans says that things did not happen as they are reported, makes mistakes, changes stories and become unreliable, but so aggressively against the hundreds of stories that have been told about how your forefathers treated them. Suddenly they are not reliable. Very convenient. Surely you must see the contradiction in how you and what you believe.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

@CH3CHO – I think the wheels must be coming off you bus.

Me: What remains controversial is how many comfort women were recruited, from what backgrounds, and to what extent they were voluntary participants in the system. You: That is about right. Um, which means that you acknowledge that comfort women did exist. And that some of them were recruited, and some of them were not. Notice how it says that “What remains controversial is how many comfort woman were recruited”. It means that the remaining were not. YOU AGREED TO THAT with that statement. It means there is blood on Japanese hands that needs to be washed off. It can not be washed off with water. This takes soul searching and admitting guilt. You can not have it both ways. Some were recruited and other were taken against their will.. Hey, I have admitted that some of them were just prostitutes. So, give a little leeway. Your forefathers burned evidence. The guilty never burn evidence unless it is to save their butts. And there is proof that the evidence was burned.

Me: So, by your logic, we should believe the Japanese government, which burned as many documents as possible You: Then why do not we see any private documents, such as letters and diaries in Korea about the "missing girls"? If Japanese army had abducted Korean girls for inafu, at least some of their parents and friends would have recorded the abduction in their letters or diaries at the time. As far as I know, no such private document was found in Korea yet.

You, my opponent are not very forth right are you? You and I both know the answer to that. It is because it used to be a hermit kingdom and most of the young women who were used came from poor and illiterate families and were illiterate themselves. The country at the time had a literacy rate of less than 15 % at the time. Who was going to write what happened to their girls when they could not even write? NOBODY. You know that and so do I. I am so sad that you would choose that avenue to form a defense. The only thing I can say, is that you really have a desire to prove that your forefathers did nothing wrong. And if you open your eyes and see what is reality instead of what you want to see, you will understand that your forefathers did as well. Trust me. It is a relieving feeling to not have to fight for generations who did horrible things that you had no responsibility for. You did not do all the great things, nor did you do any of the horrible ones. Apologize and let it go. You will feel better. It is not a contest unless you make it one and when you do, everyone loses. It saddens me that you disclaim the testimony of not only so many thousands of foreigners but also your own people who are on the record for admitting the horrible things they did. Is being right so great if it means that you are wrong with reality? Can you continue to live a lie? If so, good luck. The truth will find you.

You are so willing to believe when a Koreans says that things did not happen as they are reported, makes mistakes, changes stories and become unreliable, but so aggressively against the hundreds of stories that have been told about how your forefathers treated them. Suddenly they are not reliable. Very convenient. Surely you must see the contradiction in how you and what you believe.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

@Hotmail

You might, but you'd be wrong to. The poster above is correct, you cannot generalize from the Dutch case as it was unique is a number of ways.

What's less well understood is that these were the cases referenced in the Kono statement and, again, it was not intended as a blanket statement.

-9 ( +1 / -10 )

“The two Koreans each gave written and oral testimonies which contradict each other. That is why I do not take the testimonies by the two Koreans seriously.”

Seriously, just by TWO testimonies you are willing to write history? Discounting all of the other stories that have been told? That is where you draw the line? WOW!! It is extremely convenient. Too convenient. What about the hundreds of other stories? Just discount them????? Very convenient.

“Generally speaking, testimonies by Koreans have too many inconsistencies. The Dutch woman was rescued by Japanese military police”

This is such a huge lie. She was not rescued. Oh, so you admit that the Japanese army was the rapist? Why would she need to be rescued if it was not for her being raped? Why rescue her? WHY????? Give me a break. that does not fly at all. The Japanese knew they were losing and had no choice. Time was up. They tired to return everyone back to camps that their families were in to save their butts. And they also told the people that they returned……. What was it????? They told her, and the Japanese warned the inmates that if anyone told what had happened to them, they and their family members would be killed. So we are supposed to believe that that never happened. Right? It was all a lie? Right? WRONG! This woman was there. And she is far more trustable than any Japanese who at the time hid evidence or was forced to burn evidence. As I have previously stated and shown, the government had records burned. I will believe a woman who was there over any one who burns evidence.

You think that history is a glorious thing. It is not. It is man killing man. It is evolution. Evolution is violent. There is nothing pretty in it. History is not glorious.

Your is a convenient look at history. You say, “The Dutch case cannot be generalized” but you don’t mind generalizing what a few south Korean woman have said and had problems with sticking to their stories about. Why the convenience? And I really love how you ignored my points about “Hasty Generalizations” which you are guilty of by saying that just because a few testimonies had problems that you felt that all testimony vindicated your forefathers when it did not at all. Why did you ignore that? I would have respect you a lot more if you had addressed it. But you choose to ignore it. It means that you are less than forthright and have an agenda.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

@sandiegoluv

Seriously, Sandie ... just by TWO testimonies and you are going to claim there 200,000 identical histories?

That mentality is the main problem in all this discussion.

Well, that, and accusing, damaging and demanding all sorts of compensation from women, children and people who were not even born when any crimes were committed.

What's your estimate for the proportion of paid prostitutes versus sex trafficked victims?

-7 ( +2 / -9 )

Luce-A The weird point is that you think that THOSE two testimonies equals any proof of evidence at all but you discount all of the stories that have come forth about the Japanese military and all of their crimes. You actually think that that is something to comment about? Brave of you to say the least. What is my estimate? Can not really say. neither can the Japanese. They burned all of the evidence. So, all that is left is the testimony of the victims. The thousands of them. Let's just all call them liars for the sake of Japanese pride. I would say that it is so much more than the Japanese admit to and less than the Koreans and Chinese admit to. But I would say this. it is an inconvenient truth that the Japanese do not want to handle because they have been bottled fed the whole time. Now, if you want to throw your two cents in to the ring, then speak on it. I am here and waiting.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

It is naive,stupid even for a people to think they can commit such monstrous atrocities and not expect some form of blow-back. The truth is unraveling itself from within, the frenetic tries of deceptions not withstanding. I have great admiration and profound respect for people, in this case, the Japanese history academics, who chose to kick down the doors to the devil's closet,step outside and above the power-imposed confines, LOOK AT POWER in the eyes and give a TRUTHFUL critique to it(power). The Japanese history academics fraternity has broken the spell of threats and intimidations power had on it. THAT, on its own, must be a very empowering feeling and a relief of the SINFUL burden of knowing the truth and not being able to tell it as it is. I say BRAVO !!

5 ( +5 / -0 )

The right-wingers are still thinking about talking about the upcoming discussion they're planning to do about the true definition of "invasion". But before that, they must decide which people to choose from to form the 16-member panel of said discussions, which by the way, includes the planning of time periods of appropriate bathroom breaks in between discussions.

These academics' advice are falling towards deaf ears.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

@sandiegoluv

If you knew anything about the bureaucratic nature of the IJA, you'd realise how ridiculous, and impossible, the "they burned all the evidence" line is.

There has been over 20 years of heated debate and activism since Yoshiaki proposed his high estimate of 200,000. Recently, the US Gov spent $30 million to finding evidence.

"Many agents should have required special attention. Some of them accentuated the name of the armies as much as they might hurt the credibility of the armies and cause misunderstanding among the public, others recruited women without control through war correspondents or entertainers, and others selected the wrong agents who took a kidnapping approach to recruit women so that the polices arrested them. In the future, the armies in the field should control recruiting and select the agencies circumspectly and properly, and should build up a closer connection with the local polices and the local military polices in the implementation of recruiting. Take special care not to have problems which have the potential to damage the armies' credibility or are not acceptable to social standards."

Elsewhere, he quotes from the Ninth Infantry Brigade’s “Battlefield Diary”,

not only are rapes illegal acts in each of these areas, but they also undermine public order and obstruct the combat activities of the military as a whole. We ought to call them acts of high treason that threaten the nation ... We must stamp out the outbreaks of these acts. Any commanders who disregard these orders can only be called disloyal subjects ... The provision of facilities for sexual comfort as quickly as possible is of great importance.

This is provided as evidence "the army was involved".

I would say it is clear evidence that, "the army became aware of problems (crimes) was concerned and wanted to put an end to them. We know, from the historical record, officers and enlisted men were punished for abuses.

For most people indulging in this conversation - those not being paid to troll or with a specific political motivated - all they are really seeking is justification for their racism or chauvinism.

One cannot reason with that kind of state of mind. It's an illogical state of mind that will rage at reason because facts and reason expose it unreasonable state.

-9 ( +0 / -9 )

Luce-A - Burning of evidence is not ridiculous at all and many Japanese have come forward to say that they did just that. Testimony, documented testimony has been provided that goes all the way up the exporters own handlers at the time as well. Wether you choose to believe that is all on you.

As far as rape being frowned upon, of course it was. That is WHY the comfort women station were provided. The military did not want its troops raping the local population for two reasons. The reason for such orders are very clear. They did not want their troops sick with VD and the past actions of the military had become very unpopular with locals due to past actions. The Japanese military did not want its soldiers to rape the locals for its own benefit, thus comfort women were provided.

This is not racism at all or chauvinism at all. Most countries have an ugly past. They just refuse to accept it. Give me a post about something negative that my country did, and I will be all up in it. Why? Because being open and honest about one's own country's negative points is extremely important in order to not repeat the past. I make no excuses for what my country has done. Calling the posters here racist or chauvinistic does not excuse Japan's actions one bit.

Furthermore the posters who deny such actions or are here to "t

roll or with a specific political motivated - all they are really seeking is justification for their racism or chauvinism.

" works on both sides of the house. Is that why you are here?

One cannot reason with that kind of state of mind. No, one can not. Nor can one reason with someone who is in denial and only out to prove that his/he country is not in the wrong when it is so clear to everyone else that it is.

It's an illogical state of mind that will rage at reason because facts and reason expose it unreasonable state.

I am going to assume that you are talking about the deniers and the nationalist who will do anything and everything to deny that such actions took place. I have also felt that way so many times in dealing with them as well.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

sandiegoluvMay. 27, 2015 - 09:56PM JST

Notice how it says that “What remains controversial is how many comfort woman were recruited”. It means that the remaining were not. YOU AGREED TO THAT with that statement.

It does not mean any more than what it means, just as saying "How many apples did you buy yesterday?" does not mean admission of stealing apples.

It is because it used to be a hermit kingdom and most of the young women who were used came from poor and illiterate families and were illiterate themselves. The country at the time had a literacy rate of less than 15 % at the time.

I would argue literacy is more than 15%. But, even if admitting your claim for argument sake, as Koreans claim there where 200,000 ianfu, of which majority was Korean, there should be 200,000 x 15%=30,000 literate cases. Why there is no private document? In addition, in any society with high illiteracy rate, there are people who can read and write and who helps illiterate people when needed. Your claim would hardly justify the total lack of private documents concerning ianfu at the time.

Seriously, just by TWO testimonies you are willing to write history?

Just give me a name of Korean former ianfu who you think is trustworthy. Google her name and you will find various versions of contradicting testimonies. This troublesome phenomenon was studied by Professor Park Yu Ha at Seojong University in Seoul. She attributes it to political pressures from Korean society.

The Dutch woman was rescued by Japanese military police”

This is such a huge lie. She was not rescued. Oh, so you admit that the Japanese army was the rapist?

That is why the Japanese soldiers involved in the case were punished.

-8 ( +0 / -8 )

Before 1910 the literacy rate was below 5% but after Japan annexed the Korean peninsula it raised considerable with mandatory elementary education put into effect. By the year 1940 Koreans at the age of 30 and/or younger would all have had basic reading and writing training.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

@ Luce-A

If you knew anything about the bureaucratic nature of the IJA, you'd realise how ridiculous, and impossible, the "they burned all the evidence" line is.

Doesn't it appear obvious that the exact opposite is true?

Because of the highly bureaucratic and hierarchic nature of the IJA was it possible to burn so much of the evidence so efficiently.

But even with all the burning there are documents that prove the management of the comfort station system from the very top of the military command and that is more then enough to establish the IJA's legal responsibility for the crimes.

To be clear: the IJA did establish, organize, regulate, facilitate and sustain a system of human trafficking and sexual slavery.

This is the main message of foreign and Japanese historians.

To get into details and numbers, to try to smear the victims, like CH3CHO, Luce-A and other poster here, is just spindoctoring to distract from the Japanese responsibility.

Historians in Japan and all over the world have already rendered a clear verdict and if the Japanese government believes this verdict is false it would have to present the world clear and concise evidence that the IJA was not managing the "comfort station" system.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

bam_booMay. 28, 2015 - 02:11PM JST

To be clear: the IJA did establish, organize, regulate, facilitate and sustain a system of human trafficking and sexual slavery.

This is the main message of foreign and Japanese historians.

Have you read the open letter "issued earlier this month signed by several hundred academics, many from Europe and the U.S. and including Pulitzer Prize winners." Contrary to what you think this is what they said.

https://networks.h-net.org/system/files/contributed-files/japan-scholars-statement-2015.5.4-eng_0.pdf

Some historians also dispute how directly the Japanese military was involved, and whether women were coerced to become “comfort women.”

So, it is a disputed matter. Then it goes no to say the following WITHOUT specifying who did it.

Yet the evidence makes clear that large numbers of women were held against their will and subjected to horrific brutality.

Again, historians cannot agree WHO held some of the women against their will, because the brothel owners were mostly Koreans and Chinese.

Employing legalistic arguments focused on particular terms or isolated documents to challenge the victims’ testimony both misses the fundamental issue of their brutalization and ignores the larger context of the inhumane system that exploited them.

By avoiding legalistic argument, they cannot specify who was responsible, and they can only get humanitarian aid.

I hate to see historians keep saying "Historians cannot agree on this, that and everything." while at the same time calling for political leadership without establishing facts.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

I hate to see historians keep saying "Historians cannot agree on this, that and everything." while at the same time calling for political leadership without establishing facts.

You've already been called on this, numerous times

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Why did I get so may down votes? It's all true.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

@ CH3CHO

Have you read the open letter "issued earlier this month signed by several hundred academics, many from Europe and the U.S. and including Pulitzer Prize winners." Contrary to what you think this is what they said.

I have read it and I have no idea what you mean by "Contrary to what you think this is what they said".

Their main point is exactly my main point:

"But historians have unearthed numerous documents demonstrating the military’s involvement in the transfer of women and oversight of brothels."

Everything else what you say is just smoke-screening.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

bam_booMay. 28, 2015 - 05:02PM JST

"But historians have unearthed numerous documents demonstrating the military’s involvement in the transfer of women and oversight of brothels."

As Luce-A correctly pointed out, "involvement" means pretty much indirect concern to the matter. http://www.japantoday.com/category/politics/view/japanese-academics-join-calls-for-govt-to-face-up-to-responsibility-over-comfort-women#comment_1986179

You cannot jump from

"military’s involvement in the transfer of women and oversight of brothels"

all the way to

the IJA did establish, organize, regulate, facilitate and sustain a system of human trafficking and sexual slavery.

just as you cannot conclude from "Mr A was involved in a murder case" to "Mr A was a murderer."

I hope you get used to the terminology and the game rules of the historians.

-7 ( +1 / -8 )

@CH3CHO The women were either recruited or they weren’t. If they weren’t then they were obviously forced. You can not have it any other way at all. Recruited and or forced. The apples analogy can not be used here.

Now as for diaries being kept by families. ARE YOU SERIOUS? It was an insult for them to lose their virginity. It was a shame. Even upon returning they were shunned by their own people must like leppers. If you knew anything really about this issue and had done research on the subject from THEIR standpoint and words, instead of looking for any and every reason to deny the events, then you would know better then them keeping diaries. Hugely illiterate population at the time. And you deniers love to take advantage of that. So sad. Also, you conveniently leave out the fact that prostitution was a legitimate practice in Japan while it was severely look down by Koreans of that generation. Prostitutes were fully ostracized by their family and friends. It was a black mark on any family to have their daughter lose her virginity. Learn more about Koreans and you will understand better.

Just give me a name of Korean former ianfu who you think is trustworthy. Google her name and you will find various versions of contradicting testimonies.

I will do something better. I will give you websites that you need to study. After reading them I am even more convinced and anyone with an open mind will be convinced as well. Just look into them. I am not going to sit her and provide name after name. I think these site do that for me.

<http://www.lse.ac.uk/genderInstitute/pdf/listeningToVoices.pdf http://www.dw.de/former-comfort-woman-tells-uncomforting-story/a-17060384 http://www.awf.or.jp/e3/oralhistory-00.html http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/31/world/asia/31yoshimi.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://koreadutchindiesproject.blogspot.jp/p/pakket-1-page-1.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk-BY6FvF-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxKsf_VB5RU http://www.unesco.org/education/wef/countryreports/korea/rappport_2_1.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzGQ0liu0UI http://www.a-revolt.org/Multimedia/Library/Articles/The_face_offascism-_Ex-slave_narrates_Japan_boiled_comfort_woman.pdf

That is why the Japanese soldiers involved in the case were punished.

Um, they were not punished by the Japanese. They were tried and punished by the Dutch. Now, be that as it may, you still think that what happened in that case was not replicated all over Asia? I really seriously hope not.

Once again you throw out the one South Korean Professor Park Yu Ha at Seojong University in Seoul who says they were just prostitutes. Fine, then I will fight back with Professor Yoshiaki Yoshimi of Chuo University.

Yoshimi has done major work on the study of war crimes perpetrated by the Imperial Japanese Army and theImperial Japanese Navy during the first part of the Shōwa period. He has published his research on the use of chemical weapons by the Army, ordered by Emperor Shōwa himself.

Yoshimi is mostly noted for his work regarding the comfort women. He found the first documentary evidence in the Defense Agency Library of Tokyo that the Imperial Japanese Army established and ran "comfort stations". One of these was a notice written on 4 March 1938 by the adjutants to the Chiefs of Staff of theNorth China Army and Central China Expeditionary Army titled "Concerning the Recruitment of Women for Military Comfort Stations". The gist of the document is as below:

"Many agents should have required special attention. Some of them accentuated the name of the armies as much as they might hurt the credibility of the armies and cause misunderstanding among the public, others recruited women without control through war correspondents or entertainers, and others selected the wrong agents who took a kidnapping approach to recruit women so that the polices arrested them. In the future, the armies in the field should control recruiting and select the agencies circumspectly and properly, and should build up a closer connection with the local polices and the local military polices in the implementation of recruiting. Take special care not to have problems which have the potential to damage the armies' credibility or are not acceptable to social standards."

The publication of these documents led to admission statements by the Chiefs of the Cabinet: SecretaryKoichi Kato on 12 January 1993 and Yōhei Kōno on 4 August 1993. The Kono statement in particular has been important in the comfort women issue.

On 17 April 2007, Yoshimi and fellow historian Hirofumi Hayashi held a press conference and announced the discovery of documents in the archives of the Tokyo Tribunal that demonstrate that Tokkeitai members coerced or otherwise forced women from Indonesia, Indochina, and China into sexual slavery.

Although Yoshimi has previously made statementsin which he conceded "there is no physical evidence to support the forced draft of comfort women by the military in the colonies (Taiwan & Korea)", he has unequivocally stated that what documentation he has unearthed makes it clear that "there was coercion of those women into sexual slavery and it is the Japanese authorities who decided to set up wartime brothels” All evidence was burned which was proven by earlier by me; See below.

One surviving document following Japan’s surrender was submitted to the International Military Tribunal for the Far East (Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal) by a former senior official at the War Ministry. In the document, the author admitted to having instructed troops to burn documents on Aug. 14, 1945--the day before Japan’s surrender.

The Japanese military destroyed most of its records on the announcement of the surrender, and only limited written documentation regarding the comfort women survived. There are other known cases of destruction orders. One came directly from the Ministry of Great East Asia ordering Japanese diplomatic missions in China and other nations to destroy all key documents. Records and testimonies by former officials at the Foreign Ministry and Home Ministry also show that orders were given to destroy official documentation.

Evidence was burned to save backsides. There is not refuting that.

No evidence exists that the comfort women were actually prostitutes.

Evidence does exist to the contrary though through testimony and some documents that were obtained.

Once again. You believe that we should believe a government which burned evidence right before the end of the war and that has been well documented, over the words and testimony of the women in so many countries and countless Japanese soldiers who have said the same thing? I really hope that is not what you are suggesting here.
4 ( +5 / -1 )

@ CH3CHO

just as you cannot conclude from "Mr A was involved in a murder case" to "Mr A was a murderer."

To be precise historians found documents that prove:

... the IJA did actively establish the comfort station system

... centrally checked the needs and allocated the necessary resources

... it directly commissioned and payed the "recruiters"

... organized the trafficking often on navy ships

... it provided or prepared the locations and selected the managers

... it often directly managed or was involved in the management of the stations

... it created and checked the rules

... and it was the main and only "customer"

Plenty of such evidence clearly establishes the institutional responsibility of the IJA for all crimes committed in the name of the comfort station system. This is the main point of historians in Japan and abroad.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

@Yubaru: DOH...the IJA burned them all!

Remember Suga had heated argument in Diet about existence of comfort women quite while ago?

Suga yelled he will get proof document and went JSDF Library and found?

I thought that was the same one I read during WW II. Japanese Military proudly claimed they found the way to makew useless women for war cause. That was before Japanese girls who could not enter middle school were recruited to Joshi TeishinTai after 8 th grade telling they would be nurses. etc. When Japanese Govt fooled own children, but some peiople deny.

I think these people checked libraries that were not burned and have iteral proof now.l

1 ( +3 / -2 )

@Bam_boo. Great post.

@CH3CHO - And the truth will set you free!!! Making excuses for one's forefather makes you a prisoner to things that you were not allowed to made a decision in. They did it. Not you. There is no honor is history. History is evolution and evolution is violent. Once again there are three realities.

The reality that you want to believe.

The reality that others believe.

The truth.

Who is to say what the truth really is when they are only defending their own? Nobody can be trusted then because they have a false sense of reality that is something that they want to believe. No truth to reality will ever come to them, because they trip over there own feet defending a practice that they had nothing to do with implementing.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

@Sandie

Have you actually read all of Yoshimi's book?

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

bam_booMay. 29, 2015 - 12:07AM JST

Plenty of such evidence clearly establishes the institutional responsibility of the IJA for all crimes committed in the name of the comfort station system.

Uh, now you are saying something different. This is what you said.

bam_booMay. 28, 2015 - 02:11PM JST

To be clear: the IJA did establish, organize, regulate, facilitate and sustain a system of human trafficking and sexual slavery.

There is big difference between sexual slavery and prostitution. Prostitution is legal in many countries especially in many of European countries even today. It is well understood that Japanese military established and licensed prostitution facilities during ww2. But such act was no less legal than licensing of prostitution in European countries today is.

I suggest you admit comfort stations were legal, and then continue the discussion on the moral aspects of comfort stations.

-9 ( +0 / -9 )

Luce-A WHY? What is your point?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@ CH3CHO

Uh, now you are saying something different.

No, in my last post I was just clarifying how the IJA was "involved" in the comfort station system.

You were trying to make it look like as if the IJA only played a minor role in the comfort station system, but evidence points in a different direction.

So if we'd call it a system of "prostitution" you would agree on the central role the IJA played?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

sandiegoluvMay. 28, 2015 - 07:28PM JST

I think these site do that for me.

Your links do not work.

Yoshimi is mostly noted for his work regarding the comfort women. He found the first documentary evidence in the Defense Agency Library of Tokyo

Luce-A has already brought Yoshimi's works and their shortfalls to your attention in this thred. Did you notice?

The publication of these documents led to admission statements by the Chiefs of the Cabinet:

Hardly so. Comfort stations and its relation to the army were widely known already. Yoshimi's "discovery" is over valued out of proportion by the Western press. How can you "discover" a document which has been open to public since 1945.

Evidence does exist to the contrary though through testimony and some documents that were obtained.

Evidence that ianfu existed does exist from the begining. What is discussed is if Korean girls were abducted for ianfu by Japanese Army, and if there is any evidence of such acts. Play fair.

-7 ( +0 / -7 )

@ CH3CHO

Yoshimi's "discovery" is over valued out of proportion by the Western press.

Yoshimi was the first to publicize Japanese official documents that proved the direct involvement of the IJA leadership and the central role it played in the establishment and management of the comfort station system.

This fact was either ignored, downplayed or outrightly denied by many conservative Japanese politicians before Yoshimi's publication, so it was quite a big achievement.

After Yoshimi the whitewashers had to shift their focus on the filthy business of trying to discredit all the numerous accounts of former sex slaves.

Once again my question:

So if we'd call it a system of "prostitution" you would agree on the central role the IJA played?

6 ( +7 / -1 )

@CH3CHO

Your links do not work.

Nonsense. I just clicked them and they work. You obviously do not want to see them.

Luce-A has already brought Yoshimi's works and their shortfalls to your attention in this thred. Did you notice?

Just because Luce=A brought it up does not mean that it was with supported evidence to back that up. I do love how you and the other deniers can just deny all you want. The South Korean professor works for you, because she is saying what you want to hear. The Japanese professor is simply discredit by you and deniers just because what he is saying does not. Sad.

Evidence that ianfu existed does exist from the begining. What is discussed is if Korean girls were abducted for ianfu by Japanese Army, and if there is any evidence of such acts. Play fair.

Play fair? Seriously? As if YOU have been? There is nothing that could be shown to you to make you see the light because you do not want it to be so. You discount all the testimony that has been given. You will not even check the links and claim that they do not work, when I just checked them and they do. Are you playing fair? I dont think so.

You can not even admit in one of the most well known cases of Dutch women being abducted and raped for six months by the military that that was most likely the norm. You try to act like that was an isolated incident and it was not. The same story has been told by so many other women. But once again their testimony and that of Japanese soldiers is not credible at all. You would rather believe the people who burned the evidence. So, dont tell me to play fair. I dont play with the truth are use a convenient argument just because it works for me. Check the links that were given to you.

I can see there is no way that you have any form of an open mind on this issue. You have a purpose and that is only to prove your version of the truth. I am out of here.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

bam_booMay. 29, 2015 - 01:46PM JST

So if we'd call it a system of "prostitution" you would agree on the central role the IJA played?

It was a system of prostitution planned and licensed by Japanese Military. I think no one in Japan disagrees.

The discussion has been derailed by strawman argument such as "Japanese deny comfort women".

The open letter correctly points out the issues in discussion. https://networks.h-net.org/system/files/contributed-files/japan-scholars-statement-2015.5.4-eng_0.pdf

Historians disagree over the precise number of “comfort women,” which will probably never be known for certain. Establishing sound estimates of victims is important.

Some historians also dispute how directly the Japanese military was involved, and whether women were coerced to become “comfort women.”

-8 ( +0 / -8 )

It was a system of prostitution planned and licensed by Japanese Military. I think no one in Japan disagrees

So you'll agree that up to 200,000 women where coerced and raped by the IJA?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

So you'll agree that up to 200,000 women where coerced and raped by the IJA? That is an important question.

No evidence exists that the comfort women were actually prostitutes. Are you sure? Sarah Soh's book "The Comfort Women: Sexual Violence and Postcolonial Memory in Korea and Japan" seems to provide some evidence, regarding at least one of more famous victims and her previous employment.

Soh's point appears to be that the Comfort Women were indentured (money up front, after that we own you) so they were also slaves. Indentured slavery was and to a large extent remains, sadly, common in prostitution, and she maintains that it is disgusting for a state to oversee indentured prostitution. However, indentured prostitution would still be a quite a way from the literal meaning of sexual slavery. Indentured prostitution, the cruel and tragic norm of that time, might be some thing that the Japanese would be allowed to stop apologizing for eventually.

If however the Japanese rounded up women, or lied to women or otherwise forced women to be sexual slaves in the narrower more literal definition of sexual slavery, that would be, as I write above, quite radically evil if it characterized the system (rather than isolated, punished errors).

If 200,000 women were raped with the approval of the Japanese government, as a matter of policy, over and over again then no amount of apology would be sufficient. Abe and future prime ministers should be on his knees in Seoul now, next year, and for every year to come.

I must confess that I do still believe in Sarah Soh's representation but I will be reading more.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

It was a system of prostitution planned and licensed by Japanese Military.

OK, now we got one crucial point clear. That's a big step.

I think no one in Japan disagrees.

Yes, because of Yoshimi's brave research in the 1990ies. Before that the Japanese government didn't even feel involved in the matter at all. Those documents ultimately lead to the establishment of the Asian Women's Fund and this is why the documents Yoshimi found are so prominently displayed on the AWF webpages.

By the way, I remember you and other posters reasoning about the Japanese military only "licensing" comfort stations, but not being directly involved in their management.

Now we at least seem to agree that the IJA did not only "license", but also "plan" the comfort station system.

Can we then also agree on the existence of official documents which prove that "planning" meant the IJA:

... established the system,

... centrally managed the system,

... facilitated the sending the women (I'm just trying to keep it neutral here),

... regulated the system and oversaw whether regulations were abided?

Yes?

If so we will now agree on the fact that the Japanese military was also responsible for abuse that happened in the name of the system.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

@CH3CHO The links work just fine. I just used them and they work fine. I am going to repost them anyway.

<http://www.lse.ac.uk/genderInstitute/pdf/listeningToVoices.pdf http://www.dw.de/former-comfort-woman-tells-uncomforting-story/a-17060384>

<http://www.awf.or.jp/e3/oralhistory-00.html >

<http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/31/world/asia/31yoshimi.html?pagewanted=all&r=0 >

<http://koreadutchindiesproject.blogspot.jp/p/pakket-1-page-1.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk-BY6FvF-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxKsfVB5RU >

http://www.unesco.org/education/wef/countryreports/korea/rappport21.html

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzGQ0liu0UI http://www.a->

<revolt.org/Multimedia/Library/Articles/Thefaceoffascism-Ex-slavenarratesJapanboiledcomfortwoman.pdf

Here are three more links that are very informative as well.

http://rt.com/op-edge/202503-comfort-women-south-korea-japan/ http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/28475-reexamining-the-comfort-women-issue-an-interview-with-yoshimi-yoshiaki http://ajw.asahi.com/article/forum/politics_and_economy/east_asia/AJ201309200068

Just in case you don’t read the last one.

“Chinese victims have initiated four lawsuits in Japan. In their rulings issued between 2001 and 2005, the Tokyo District Court and Tokyo High Court ruled that all four cases fit the above description and that soldiers "were involved in cases of turning women into so-called comfort women, in which they were forcibly snatched or taken away to be raped and kept in confinement where they were raped on a daily basis."

Even though Tokyo District Court and the Tokyo High Court ruled in favor of the comfort woman and ruled that they were forced.

“Two or three memoirs by former soldiers are evidence supporting the claims of Indonesian victims. This completely refutes the basis of the argument that there is no evidence of abductions by military or government authorities.”

“As for cases of abduction by the army, a 1948 ruling issued by the International Military Tribunal for the Far East (also known as the Tokyo Trials) recognized that the Imperial Japanese Army deceived women, in Guilin, China, into thinking they would work at a factory, instead placing them at comfort stations where they were "forced into prostitution."

“The brothel operators transported women to comfort stations out of their home countries through either deceit and cajolery or the slave trade. Under the penal code at the time, the former was a crime of kidnapping for the purpose of transport out of a country, and the latter was a crime of slave trading for the purpose of transport out of a country. Yet the local Japanese soldiers who supervised and managed the comfort stations neither released the women nor arrested the operators.

In both cases, official military documents show that the army ordered the creation of comfort stations. The army purposely rounded up the women and used military vessels and military trucks to transport them. It provided comfort station buildings and the necessary supplies and also determined comfort station rules and fees. The comfort stations were exclusively for troops and other army-affiliated civilian personnel. Army doctors conducted regular checks for sexually transmitted diseases.”

Therefor there is a lot of evidence that clearly shows the IJA involvement. These facts can not be whitewashed. many ex-soldiers have come forward. Not only the ex-comfort women.

Once again we can look at the case of the Dutch who were kidnapped and were forced into providing sexual services for the military. Are you trying to say that that was in isolated incident and not the norm? Why? So many tell the same story. Denying it till the cows come home does nothing at all. It is fact.

As for Luce-A bringing up the Professor’s work and questioning the reliability of it, that hardly means anything because points were not proven with facts that I have seen at all.

“How can you "discover" a document which has been open to public since 1945.”

Very easy, because the Japanese government never even researched it nor did it stand up and say, “Hey, look what we found”. He had to go looking for it. And it really does not matter anyway. It is kind of beside the point.

Evidence that ianfu existed does exist from the begining. What is discussed is if Korean girls were abducted for ianfu by Japanese Army, and if there is any evidence of such acts. Play fair.

Play fair? I don’t see why you would think I wasn’t playing fair at all. I think you might need to follow your own advice. You are aware that the IJA sent word to all of its outposts and leaders to burn the evidence of which has been documented and I have even provided here in this forum. And you ask me to play fair? You are saying that we should believe people who burned documents and discredit all of those who tell stories of how they were forced into prostitution. To me, that sounds very convenient of you and very unfair.

To be honest, I get tired of this problem. I am always defending Japan on this issue and saying that enough time has passed and how long does it have to continue to be a thorn in the side of relations between Japan and her neighbors. This issue is used for political gain by the Chinese and Korean governments to stay in power. They love it. It keeps them in power. But what gets me more excited than anything is when "deniers" and "Revionists" come out and start attacking those poor women and trying to call them common prostitutes. It really is just an insult to injury and very sad to see.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

The reason I did not answer the question was because;

It is irrelevant. Damned if I did. Damned if I didn't. Either way you are going to say something very negative.

I think you are very rude. You and I are done talking. Exaggerated falsehoods? Pitiful? We have not done either of those things. I have proven it right here several times. And you have not proven anything. Just accusations and innuendoes at best. And now you are being rude.

Have a nice day.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

bam_booMay. 29, 2015 - 04:50PM JST

By the way, I remember you and other posters reasoning about the Japanese military only "licensing" comfort stations, but not being directly involved in their management.

Now we at least seem to agree that the IJA did not only "license", but also "plan" the comfort station system.

Records and testimonies of inafu show comfort stations were "managed" by private brothel owners. To receive license, the brothel owners must comply with the regulations set forth by the Japanese Military, such as periodic health checks, fees, profit sharing between brothel owners and ianfu, work hours, termination of contract and so on.

These regulation documents were confiscated by US Army and translated into English during WW2. You can read them here. http://www.awf.or.jp/pdf/0051_5.pdf page 179 (pages go backwards) These were open knowledge for a long time, and I do not think Yoshimi "discovered" anything.

In this sense, Japanese Military planned prostitution system.

Can we then also agree on the existence of official documents which prove that "planning" meant the IJA:

... established the system,

Yes.

... centrally managed the system,

It depends on the meaning of "centrally manage".

... facilitated the sending the women (I'm just trying to keep it neutral here),

It depends on the meaning of "facilitate".

... regulated the system and oversaw whether regulations were abided?

Yes.

If so we will now agree on the fact that the Japanese military was also responsible for abuse that happened in the name of the system.

To the extent Japanese military could control, yes. The question goes back if the Korean women were abducted or abused.

-7 ( +0 / -7 )

@ CH3CHO

Records and testimonies of inafu show comfort stations were "managed" by private brothel owners.

And other records prove the direct involvement of the IJA in the management of comfort stations. When there were not enough henchmen at hand the IJA did the pimping. The IJA also often provided and prepared the facilities.

It was not the nice separation between bad-Korean-pimps for the dirty work and well-intentioned IJA bureaucrats who made sure everything went according to 20th century human rights standards, as you try to make it look like.

These regulation documents were confiscated by US Army and translated into English during WW2.

What you refer to was not a thorough inquiry into the comfort station system but a general collection of information on various aspects of the enemies military system based on informal interviews.

The US agents didn't ask any specific questions about the comfort stations, about abuse or violence against women and they only questioned few comfort women from mainly one comfort station.

Even though there are several references to violence against women committed by the IJA in the collection of interviews.

Really don't know why you keep referring to this document as such an important and exculpatory source.

These were open knowledge for a long time, and I do not think Yoshimi "discovered" anything.

Once again as you seem to have difficulties to follow the argument:

Yoshimi was the first to discovered and publish documents which prove that the central command of the IJA was directly involved in the establishment and management of the comfort stations.

He also discovered documents which prove that the trafficking was done directly by the Japanese military.

The US inquiry you like to mention neither knew about the involvement of the IJA command nor did it have any IJA insider documents to prove anything.

If so we will now agree on the fact that the Japanese military was also responsible for abuse that happened in the name of the system.

To the extent Japanese military could control, yes.

Wow, we're getting quite close to the goal here. Are you trying to say that the Japanese military established the system, was directly involved in its overall management, but was not able to control it?

If so, why?

The question goes back if the Korean women were abducted or abused.

Don't really know why you are so obsessed by the Korean comfort women. The comfort station system led to widespread abuse not only of Korean women, but of Chinese, Taiwanese, Indonesian, Burmese, Filipino, Dutch and a handful of other nationalities.

Without doubt Korean were the majority, but that was due to two factors:

... Korea had been a Japanese colony for almost 40 years and there was a well established system of repression, including enough submissive henchmen to get the dirty work done

... apparently Japanese solders preferred Koreans because they kind of resembled Japanese, of whom the Japanese military couldn't recruit enough as other then in Korea, in Japan recruiting standards were strictly enforced.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

sandiegoluvMay. 29, 2015 - 05:33PM JST

“Chinese victims have initiated four lawsuits in Japan. In their rulings issued between 2001 and 2005, the Tokyo District Court and Tokyo High Court ruled that all four cases fit the above description and that soldiers "were involved in cases of turning women into so-called comfort women, in which they were forcibly snatched or taken away to be raped and kept in confinement where they were raped on a daily basis."

Here is the link to the court document of the case. http://www.courts.go.jp/app/files/hanrei_jp/842/005842_hanrei.pdf

They were not comfort women. They were pure rape victims. Just read through the court document. The plaintiffs do not identify themselves as former comfort women.

As I said earlier,

CH3CHOMay. 27, 2015 - 08:15PM JST There are many testimonies by Chinese women of "rapes", but not those of ianfu. We cannot say much about comfort women based on testimonies about random rapes.

What is as atrocious as the rape itself was to take advantage of the rape victims and use their plight for ianfu.

-7 ( +1 / -8 )

bam_booMay. 29, 2015 - 11:42PM JST

These regulation documents were confiscated by US Army and translated into English during WW2.

What you refer to was not a thorough inquiry into the comfort station system but a general collection of information on various aspects of the enemies military system based on informal interviews.

The US agents didn't ask any specific questions about the comfort stations, about abuse or violence against women and they only questioned few comfort women from mainly one comfort station.

I am not sure if we are looking at the same thing.http://www.awf.or.jp/pdf/0051_5.pdf

(page 179) (5) RABAUL. Extract from file of miscellaneous item containing instructions regards to Navy brothel at RABAUL, undated, owner 15 Antiaircraft Defense Unit “Precautionary Items pertaining to the Navy brothel at RABAUL.

Or,

(page 182) (3) TALCOBAN Portion of bound mimeograph file, the section being entitled “TALCOBAN Brothel Regulations”, undated, issued by MATSUNAGA Force, owner and unit not stated:

1 These regulations set down the provisions of the operation of brothels in TALCOBAN

Let us talk about it after you have read it.

-7 ( +1 / -8 )

@ CH3CHO

Let us talk about it after you have read it.

I've read it. It's a lengthy compilation of translated regulations and a few informal interviews without any specific questions that could have revealed violence against women or any classified background information about the comfort station system.

The US agents were neither prosecutors nor lawyers and were not even able to check the information they got. In their interviews they touched many topics and were interested in many seemingly arbitrary details, but had no interest at all in the wellbeing of the women as that was not their task. There are some interesting details though, for example the fact that comfort women couldn't leave the stations on their own will, which is why they are commonly referred to as sex slaves.

It is not a document that could help much in relation to the current discussion.

@ Luce-A

As with most of your post, bam_boo, there's no "without doubt". You just cannot jump to conclusions in the way you do. Especially when they are not based on any actual evidence.

Could you be a bit more specific? Don't know what you are referring to.

You are, however, correct to say that in Japan, there were higher standards and they were better policed

It should have been the same standards, but it wasn't. Do you know why? Because Korea was an oppressed colony and Koreans were looked down on.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

@CH3CHO

I am throwing out the white flag here. I am tired of this debate. I have produced so much proof and you just continue to ignore the 95% of it and just play games with the few points that you can. It is tiring and of no use at all. You have produce not one shred of evidence to support your belief that the IJA is not guilty of horrendous crimes against humanity. You have played defense the whole time. It seems to me that if you had evidence to prove your belief that you would have produced it, but you have not cause none exist. From now on I will not address you on these types of stories and I hope you will do the same. Nothing can be gained except spinning wheels.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

I get tired of dealing with the revisionists claims as well. They find one small thing and try to use that as evidence that nothing bad happened, and that Japan was the victim, and that they never did anything wrong in WWII, and that all countries should be thankful for being colonized by them and blah blah blah.

Fortunately, we are in the position that we don't have to convince the world that the bad things happened. And the world is pretty convinced that they did. So for all their attempts at misinformation and misleading and whitewashing history, the only people they are going to convince is other uneducated Japanese people who don't have access to the real facts. And the world isn't going to listen to these people, same as we are not listening to the whitewashers now. So even though the revisionists are annoying, they are fighting a battle they cannot win, since the world already knows the truth. It's only their own interests that they are hurting - and all the other Japanese people who get bundled up with these guys, even though they know the truth.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

bam_booMay. 30, 2015 - 09:10AM JST

It is not a document that could help much in relation to the current discussion.

At least, we can say Yoshimi's contribution was not big.

The US agents were neither prosecutors nor lawyers

After WW2, there were war crime trials. The prosecutors reviewed all the documents and if the documents were ambiguous they could arrest any one for further interogation.

There are some interesting details though, for example the fact that comfort women couldn't leave the stations on their own will, which is why they are commonly referred to as sex slaves.

They were operating in occupied areas in enemy countries. If a woman walks arround in such an unfriendly area, she would be easily killed or kidnapped by enemy groups.

sandiegoluvMay. 30, 2015 - 11:04AM JST

You have produce not one shred of evidence to support your belief that the IJA is not guilty of horrendous crimes against humanity.

That is probablly because you refuse to read the links. In addition, I do not believe "the IJA is not guilty of horrendous crimes against humanity." Another strawman of yours.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

@Strangerland - Very, very true. All good points.

@CH3CHO. What very little you have produced I have read. Except your last one, which was all in Japanese. Sorry, but my kanji is not THAT good. You accuse me of doing the same thing that you are doing. If you had clicked on the links you would have found so much evidence to prove what we are saying, and I am pretty sure you did not. Have a nice day. I am done talking with you as well.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

It's very difficult to carry on a conversation when random posts keep disappearing. It's impossible to follow what has been said or read.

Yoshimi's "discovery" is over valued out of proportion by the Western press.

... who like Sandie and, I am presuming Bam_boo, have not read it. They are attempting to make it what it is not - the opposite in Bam_boo's case - and are not questioning or scrutinizing it, e.g. how he came to his high estimate that the Japan Hate mob has since jumped on not only as "The Truth" but now even China is copy and pasting.

(According to the Koreans there were 200,000 Korean comfort women and according to the Chinese, there were 200,000 Chinese comfort women too. If Cambodia, Vietnam and Laos get in on the debate, we'll see soon have more comfort women than the entire IJA).

@Bam_boo

Yoshimi was the first to publicize Japanese official documents that proved the direct involvement of the IJA leadership and the central role it played in the establishment and management of the comfort station system.

That's not actually true Bam_boo.

What he found and was publicised at the time were documents that prove the Military authorities had been made aware of abuses by local agents and were order something be done about it.

That, to be, shows responsibility and concern over their contractees.

I was reading over the papers that were passed through congress about the issue and noticed in the case of the Chinese, the victims were trick and abducted by "a Chinese woman". I'll did out the page number if anyone challenges it.

Then we have from Professor Park Yu-ha ...

It is ironic that 99% of Westerners fell for Chong Dae Hyup's (North Korean) propaganda and believe 200,000 young girls including Koreans were coerced by Japanese military while the majority of South Korean scholars (Professor Park Yuha of Sejong University, Professor Lee Yong-hoon of Seoul University, Professor Ahn Byong-jik of Seoul University, Professor Jun Bong-gwan of Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology, Professor Han Sung-jo of Korea University, Professor Lee Dae-gun of Sungkyunkwan University, Professor Choi Kei-ho of Kaya University, Professor Oh Seon-hwa of Takushoku University, Professor Chunghee Sarah Soh of San Francisco State University, etc.) and a good number of South Korean public agree that Japanese military did not coerce Korean women and that the number of women (Dutch and Filipino) coerced by Japanese military was less than a hundred.

Personally, I'd even be willing to actually put that higher, at a few thousand across the entire war but reject the propagandists' spin.

But who am I to question your authority over theirs if all you have done is read a few website?

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

@ CH3CHO, Luce-A

Of course you are trying to downplay or distort the importance of Yoshimi's discoveries because they establish the central role the IJA command played in the comfort station system and thus also establish the Japanese responsibility for crimes against humanity that were committed in the name of the system.

There are some interesting details though, for example the fact that comfort women couldn't leave the stations on their own will, which is why they are commonly referred to as sex slaves.

They were operating in occupied areas in enemy countries. If a woman walks arround in such an unfriendly area, she would be easily killed or kidnapped by enemy groups.

I beg your pardon but absolutely nobody in the comfort station system cared about the wellbeing of the comfort women and your suggestion is outright absurd.

@ Luce-A

Tell me why are you are so obsessed with numbers. We are talking about estimates and that's all we can do after so many years and without any detailed records.

Yoshimi's estimates are simple calculations: number of comfort stations x average number of comfort women per station x turnaround. It's that simple and its not an anti-Japanese conspiracy.

I haven't mentioned one number here and I don't think it is important if we are talking about 40,000 or 200,000.

If you don't want to appear like a net-uyo nitpicker I would suggest to leave the numbers at that.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

@bam_boo

Of course I'll refuse if you argue there is any evidence to suggest there were even 40,000 "sex slaves" ... because there simply isn't and that's the problem with the entire "big number mentality".

As Park Yu-ha and other accurate state, there may be evidence for a few hundred. I'd even accept that extended that to a few thousand ... the question then is, was it any worse than any other war or any other army.

The Japan Hate Mob will jump out of their seats and claim, "of course it was!!!" but they really have no evidence to do so. In the English language it's really just an extension of war time prejudices or propaganda of an evil, irrational, unjust, dehumanized etc etc etc horde which has latterly been usurped by the Korean and Chinese for their own political and economic ends.

Please allow me to ask you the same question I asked Sandie.

Have you actually read the whole of Yoshimi's book? (... because he does not say what you are claiming he says).

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

@ Luce-A

As Park Yu-ha and other accurate state, there may be evidence for a few hundred.

A few hundred? In 400 plus documented comfort stations all over Asia? I'm not sure we're talking about the same issue here.

By the way Park Yu-ha puts the numbers at 20,000 to 70,000 so you shouldn't put words into her mouth that she didn't say.

Reality is not something that seems to bother you much, Luce-A.

The Japan Hate Mob will jump out of their seats and claim, "of course it was!!!" but they really have no evidence to do so.

"Japan Hate Mob" is term you use in almost every of your posts. Just to get a better understanding of your screwed up worldview, who are you referring to and how to you define the "Japan Hate Mob"?

Do you perceive everybody who looks critically at Japanese wartime history automatically as a "Mob"?

1 ( +4 / -3 )

@ Luce -A

It's very difficult to carry on a conversation when random posts keep disappearing. It's impossible to follow what has been said or read.

Yes, it is. Your comments were removed because you were very rude. Which is also the very reason that you and I are not debating this anymore.

who like Sandie and, I am presuming Bamboo, have not read it. They are attempting to make it what it is not - the opposite in Bamboo's case

No, no, no. Don't assume anything at all about me. And I asked you before, please do not to refer to me anymore.

Have a nice day. Next time try a little more politeness.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

@Sandie

I know you are not but accusing someone of being rude as a distractionary strategy is very Japanese (it's a race to pretend who is "offended" first). You must have been in Japan too long. I asked you a simple question, that's not rude, it's a way of progressing a conversation.

@bam_boo

No, I think it's the same issue. Where the error is, is in your mind; confusing comfort women with sex slaves.

They were two entire separate cases.

Likewise, where there are accusations of abduction, coercion and trickery etc, we have to be very specific who was doing it.

The Army was in Asia to rid it of Western imperialists and fight a war, not do social work. Had Japan not been forced into war, the situation would never have arisen.

We cannot retrospectively apply todays politically correct values back to Asia in the first part of the century. It was a very different place, still, largely coming out of a feudal or even tribal period (when considering the distant Islands). The status of women was different.

However, Japan was already by that time a signatory to an international treaty against traffick and actual led Asia into outlawing slavery, e.g. in Korea. It had policies and laws of racial equality, long before the USA. Indeed, it was the US president's - and white Australia etc - refusal of a racial equality article in the League of Nations that led to Japan's split from it as its leaders finally realised it was a racist, imperialist institution. Had they not been forced to leave, history would have been very different.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

@Lucy - You can think what you want. But when one goes into calling the other's argument "pathetic" and "lies" and then becomes accusatory without proof of a reason at all, then intelligent dialogue soon breaks down. I know you were frustrated and venting, but I do not care to deal with people who communicate in that way at all. To insist that someone has done this or not when you do not even know them is rude. Obviously the moderator felt you were being impolite and pulled your comments. Like I said before, try a little more politeness with people.

I do have to disagree with one thing that you said and that is that the Army was in Asia to rid it of Western imperialists. I beg differ greatly. Due to western imperialist ways throughout the world, Japan was just trying to get its own piece of the pie. Simple greed. And we can not criticize them at all for it. What is good for Europe surely should be good enough for Japan. I am really not convinced that it was forced.

Had Japan not been forced into war, the situation would never have arisen.

Hmmmm. This one puzzles me. I do think that western countries were very unfair towards Japan and held it in contempt out of racism and a lack of understanding. Westerners had a very low level of respect for Asians during those times. I really don't believe that Japan was forced into war as much as it misunderstood what the USA was willing to allow it to do. Once a double standard towards Japan was shown by the west, Japan took it as the offense that it was and threw its hat in the ring. I do agree with this in some parts. But not all.

Ah, you have done some homework on this issue. However some believe that the real reasons were more than just that.

After the end of World War I, Japan suffered unequal treaties and demanded equal status with the Powers. Japan wanted equality in the world for itself so that it could reap the rewards of occupying its neighbors just as Europeans had done throughout the world.

For Australia, Japan’s Racial Equality Article in the League of nations was just a guise to "knock down Australia's 'Great White Walls' and so allow a tsunami of Asian migrants to overwhelm the British race in the South Pacific".Something Australia feared greatly, or those in power anyway, since Australia and Japan had been bumping heads for quite a while. Australia’s actions caused the Japanese to see Australia as the chief obstacle standing between them and their aim of achieving equality with the West." And anyway, Europeans did not want to give Japan equal status anyway.

Nobody actually believes that Japan was interested in civil rights for all of humanity. Go back to a point you made earlier. Remember? It was a different system back then. You had many classes here. Some were consider close to dirt in Japan. And the Japanese at that time, especially those in power did not consider other Asians to be their equals at all.

Some say Japan withdrew from the league of nations as a result of the Manchurian Railway Incident in northern China. When the league did not support them and under pressure from other nations Japan withdrew as it no longer supported the concepts of the League.

And actually here is a very interesting post from that time to prove it.

http://www.johndclare.net/league_of_nations6_news.htm

We cannot retrospectively apply todays politically correct values back to Asia in the first part of the century. It was a very different place, still, largely coming out of a feudal or even tribal period (when considering the distant Islands). The status of women was different.

Extremely true. Too often times in today's society we look at the past in our own eyes. We have been raised quite different then those people were. To apply today's ruler to yesterday is just wrong on all levels.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

whatever the number is, we all know that at least one women and likely more were forced into prostitution by the JPA. Deep down we know what happened but so many people are ashamed to admit the truth. The sickness is growing in Japan as is evident by their treatment of women and children in the porn industry. Everyone knows that Japan has the sickest pornography on the planet. The icing is on the wall. Apologize and be done with this nonsense.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@bam_boo

How would I define the "Japan Hate Mob". Are you denying that such mobs, both professional and voluntary exist?

In your case, I've put clear and simple logic before you saying showing how you are confused between comfort women and sex slaves. The rational is simple. There is a copious amount of evidence to show that many comfort women were profession prostitutes, did financially very well out of the war, were free to leave, went on to marry soldiers, remain in Japan and so on and on. Therefore, they were not slaves.

Ditto, where they were debt bound to the brothel owners (again, legally not slaves), those brothel owners tended to by of the same nationality and were not Japanese.

There is far more factual evidence to support that than the opposite.

If you refuse to accept and admit it, then I have to assume that your motivation is not seeking and understand the truth but is motivated by promoting racial or national hate.

@Sandie,

I neither called your posts pathetic nor "lies" (you check see my record above). Nor was I frustrated or venting.

But, yes, misrepresenting someone else in that way, in order to discredit them, is pathetic.

The extension of primarily American war time propaganda that dominates English speakers understanding of Japan-related issue, is aimed at representing Japan and the Japanese are de-humanized, irrational savages and beasts, itself an extension of the rhetoric white American used to steal the lands and eradicate the native Americans, and even Mexicans.

When you sit down and start at the beginning of the history of the interaction between the two nations - a 100 year history of intervention, aggression, inequality, persecution and, ultimate, domination from the American side - and, largely, respect and emulation from the Japanese, a different and far more rational picture emerges.

That rhetoric, and the history of that rhetoric, has now been usurped by Korea and Chinese interests for their own ends directly and through their diasporas, largely within the USA again. In a sense, a double dose of prejudices.

When you actually study Japanese history - not the comic book representation of it provided in English language website - and the evolution of modern Japan and its response to that history of intervention, aggression, inequality, persecution and, ultimate an entirely different picture emerges. One which most Americans find hard to digest because it is so different from that which they've been indoctrinated into.

Even so called "academics".

Whether any Whites believes that Japan was interested in civil rights for all of humanity, the clause for racial equality would have opened the door for the racial equality of all.

This is why the Whites refused to all it even thought a majority voted for it. So, yes, if you study the real history, you will find Japan was surprisingly progressive when it came to civil rights issues.

And they knew that the clause would challenge the British hold over India and American racism towards blacks. Meiji scholars were very well informed about the situation in the USA with blacks, the ongoing history of genocide of native Americans, and events in the kingdom of Hawaii and genocide on the Philippines.

Few English speakers engrossed in this issue has a deep and wide enough understanding of events to understand the Japanese position, and why it is not wrong. Most just have a narrow view and no desire to develop it. The same is true of the comfort women issue.

That's why I asked if you had read all of Yoshimi's book rather than just the salacious parts that might, in some's eyes, justify any prejudices and bigotry.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

There is a copious amount of evidence to show that many comfort women were profession prostitutes, did financially very well out of the war, were free to leave, went on to marry soldiers, remain in Japan and so on and on. Therefore, they were not slaves.

You have provided no evidence to the contrary.

Ditto, where they were debt bound to the brothel owners (again, legally not slaves), those brothel owners tended to by of the same nationality and were not Japanese

Even that rationale is absurd. So the IJA ran the brothels but did not care if they were coerced or not. You have to be kidding me to say that ignorance is okay.

There is far more factual evidence to support that than the opposite.

Seriously? There is so much evidence to support the opposite. You just deny it. Answer this; Do you not make allowances for things on your side but turn around and say that what is being said can not be accepted because there is no proof? Your side has no proof at all but that seems fine and dandy for you. Why the double standard?

If you refuse to accept and admit it, then I have to assume that your motivation is not seeking and understand the truth but is motivated by promoting racial or national hate.

Once again, seriously? You are promoting racial hate by supporting such awful things. Frankly, you are trying to say that these women all lie. THOUSANDS OF THEM. THOUSANDS. You only disgrace the little honor that they have left in life. And you are lecturing someone else about being a racist and promoting hate?

I neither called your posts pathetic nor "lies" (you check see my record above). Nor was I frustrated or venting.

Your dishonesty just showed its face. You do know that since the comments were deleted by the moderator that they will not be shown. But thank you for showing us who I am dealing with. Less than honest.

But, yes, misrepresenting someone else in that way, in order to discredit them, is pathetic.

Ah, there we go again!!! Being impolite to fight points that you could not. You resulted to attacking insteand of proving why I was wrong. Nobody was misrepresenting your argument. You were. Your argument came out the way it did and I showed you the fallacy in it. But because I did, I am pathetic? Hardly. Sour grapes?

The extension of primarily American war time propaganda that dominates English speakers understanding of Japan-related issue, is aimed at representing Japan and the Japanese are de-humanized, irrational savages and beasts, itself an extension of the rhetoric white American used to steal the lands and eradicate the native Americans, and even Mexicans.

WOW. That is really wrong of you. Oh, kind of like the Japanese did with the Ainu and the Okinawans and were trying to do to their Asian neighbors? Hmmmmm. Pot, kettle. Pot, kettle.

When you sit down and start at the beginning of the history of the interaction between the two nations - a 100 year history of intervention, aggression, inequality, persecution and, ultimate, domination from the American side - and, largely, respect and emulation from the Japanese, a different and far more rational picture emerges.

Hmmmmm. Only if you want it to.

When you actually study Japanese history - not the comic book representation of it provided in English language website - and the evolution of modern Japan and its response to that history of intervention, aggression, inequality, persecution and, ultimate an entirely different picture emerges. One which most Americans find hard to digest because it is so different from that which they've been indoctrinated into.

One, who studies history form a comic book standpoint? I surely did not. I have no idea what country you are talking about because that is not how I studied history nor how most others did either. WOW talk about misrepresentation.

Whether any Whites believes that Japan was interested in civil rights for all of humanity, the clause for racial equality would have opened the door for the racial equality of all.

LOL. Oh my dear. That was not the purpose at all. Why would a homogeneous society give a flying jump about equality when it never offered it itself in its own borders? It would not. Go back. Go back and look at what was allowed foreigners in this country at the time. No rights at all. Why would it ask the UN to lock it down to protecting the rights of foreigners in its own country that had no rights? The reasons that it left the League of Nations is quite simple. Manchuria. The rest was just a disguise. Also it wanted to be treated the same as western powers and I get that. But to call it differently as if a Homogenous society that despised foreigners wanted to give them equal rights is just astoundingly wrong and you must not know very much about it.

the clause for racial equality would have opened the door for the racial equality of all. This is why the Whites refused to all it even thought a majority voted for it. So, yes, if you study the real history, you will find Japan was surprisingly progressive when it came to civil rights issues.

Once again, to upset Australia and to be treated on equal footing with the Europeans. Treat it like it was really and I will accept it. Make it into something that is untrue and I have to go against it. You are manipulating the truth because you think that we will get tired and let you pass.

And they knew that the clause would challenge the British hold over India and American racism towards blacks. Meiji scholars were very well informed about the situation in the USA with blacks, the ongoing history of genocide of native Americans, and events in the kingdom of Hawaii and genocide on the Philippines.

A homogeneous society that believes it is the chosen race, the Yamato race has any concerns about the African Americans and the Phillipinos whom it ordered to be exterminated in the end days of the battle of Manilla, of which more than 100,000 were slaughtered and so many testified to, actually had people in mind who were different from it even though they had very little love or knowledge for outsiders? Really???? WOW.

Few English speakers engrossed in this issue has a deep and wide enough understanding of events to understand the Japanese position, and why it is not wrong. Most just have a narrow view and no desire to develop it

You should have stopped right there. The massacre in Manilla. Most Japanese do not even know a thing about it. Why? Because Japan is too busy playing the victim card to even look at what it has done to its neighbors. I have been so surprised to find that an order was given to the Army to shoot anyone who was not Japanese. They slaughtered thousands and thousands. They gave orders to pool them altogether in houses so that they would not waste bullets. The slaughter of Manilla is one of the worst catastrophes to happen. Why dont they know about it? They should know about 100,000 people being killed in a matter of two days by the losing army and there is documented evidence that shows it was ordered.

Notice how you did not comment on the link I provided? You would have if you actually thought that that was not the real reason. But you ignored and tried to pass off a different reason. You did not expect me to know about that. I can see there is no way to have a dialogue with you.

bam-boo. Let this one go. He has an agenda. He will never admit to anything. You have proved many great points and have been far more patient that I could ever be.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

@ Luce-A

No, I think it's the same issue. Where the error is, is in your mind; confusing comfort women with sex slaves. They were two entire separate cases.

They were entirely separate cases only in your imagination.

As we know from many accounts there were all kinds of cases, from the completely innocent young girls who were abducted and forced to become prostitutes, to young women who thought they would get properly payed for some playing around with men and who suddenly found themselves in a nightmare of sexual abuse.

All those women were thrown together in the comfort station system managed by the IJA and nobody of the IJA "supervisors" ever asked any of the women how they got there and if their situations was endurable. The IJA was completely indifferent to the suffering of the "comfort women" and only cared about the fighting spirit of their soldiers.

The IJA was without doubt directly responsible for the inconceivable sorrow of thousands of women from more then 6 Asian nations.

The Army was in Asia to rid it of Western imperialists and fight a war, not do social work.

The IJA was in Asia to oppress the Asian nations and rob them of their resources.

They are responsible for the death of more then 20 million Asian civilians and thus have killed more Asians then any other nation in history, Asian or not, has.

Had Japan not been forced into war, the situation would never have arisen.

This is a Japanese right-wing myth that is not supported by any serious historian anywhere. Nobody forced Japan into a war, but Japan forced the majority of the Asian nations into a war.

Such baseless views on history reveal that you don't care about a rational historic perspective.

It had policies and laws of racial equality, long before the USA.

Japanese militarists thought they are a superior race and did gruesome things to other Asians.

Here just a short first hand quote about Japanese racism from Tamura Yoshio, a member of biological warfare Unit 731:

"Question: How did you view those people that you infected with bubonic plague and dissected while still alive? Didn’t you have any feelings of pity?"

"Answer: None at all. We were like that already. I had already gotten to (a point) where I lacked pity. After all, we were already implanted with a narrow racism, in the form of a belief in the superiority of the so-called “Yamato Race.” We disparaged all other races. … If we didn’t have a feeling of racial superiority, we couldn’t have done it."

Your views, Luce-A, are that of extremist right-wing nationalists that are completely disconnected to any serious research about history in Asia or where ever and that are highly insulting to Japans neighbors that had to suffer tremendously under a brutal and inhumane Japanese military.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

sandiegoluvJun. 01, 2015 - 08:03AM JST

Your counter-arguments are nothing more than "I do not think so." Cannot you make this comment section more productive by giving reference or reasoning to your argument?

bam_booMay. 30, 2015 - 11:09PM JST

Of course you are trying to downplay or distort the importance of Yoshimi's discoveries because they establish the central role the IJA command played in the comfort station system and thus also establish the Japanese responsibility for crimes against humanity that were committed in the name of the system.

Establishing prostitution facilities does not constitute "crime against humanity." Kidnapping of women for sex may, but Yoshimi or anyone else has not proven that Japanese Army kidnapped women for ianfu in organized manner.

I beg your pardon but absolutely nobody in the comfort station system cared about the wellbeing of the comfort women and your suggestion is outright absurd.

If you read the Japanese section of the compilation of the WW2 documents here, You can find many cases where ianfu were treated much better than soldiers. They were also treated in hospitals if injured or found STD. http://www.awf.or.jp/e6/document.html

Also, you may have read this US report during WW2. http://www.awf.or.jp/pdf/0051_5.pdf

(page135) LIVING AND WORKING CONDITIONS;

They lived in near-luxury in Burma in comparison to other places. This was especially true of their second year in Burma. They lived well because their food and material was not heavily rationed and they had plenty of money with which to purchase desired articles. They were able to buy cloth, shoes, cigarettes, and cosmetics to supplement the many gifts given to them by soldiers who had received "comfort bags" from home.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

They are responsible for the death of more then 20 million Asian civilians and thus have killed more Asians then any other nation in history, Asian or not, has.

Well this is not true as Mao Tse Tung indirectly and directly killed 70 million Chinese during his reign.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Records and testimonies of inafu show comfort stations were "managed" by private brothel owners

Nope, no such thing

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

@ CH3CHO

You can find many cases where ianfu were treated much better than soldiers.

What does that exactly mean?

The IJA command didn't care much about any human life, this also includes Japanese soldiers as well, who were mainly seen as cannon fodder. But still the Japanese military command needed cannon fodder with good fighting spirit and that's why they established the comfort station system and also checked the women for STD.

They were also treated in hospitals if injured or found STD.

Where else could they have been treated in such cases? Don't understand how this stands against my point.

Also, you may have read this US report during WW2.

Yes, we were talking about that report. It says "they lived in near-luxury in Burma in comparison to other places." Which speaks for itself.

Burma probably was an exception, or the information was inacurate, who knows?

On page 136 the report also states the following which is a clear reference to how young girls were cheated and subsequently obviously also coerced:

"Recruiting

Early in May of 1942 Japanese agents arrived in Korea for the purpose of enlisting Korean girls for "comfort service" in newly conquered Japanese territories in Southeast Asia. The nature of this "service" was not specified but it was assumed to be work connected with visiting the wounded in hospitals, rolling bandages, and generally making soldiers happy. The inducement used by those agents was plenty of money, an opportunity to pay off the family debts, easy work, and the prospect of a new life in a new land Singapore. On the basis of those false representations many girs enlisted for oversea duty and were rewarded with an advance of a few hundred yen. The majority of the girls were innocent and uneducated, although a few had been connected with "the oldest profession on earth" before. The contract they singed bound them to Army regulations and to work for the "house master" for a period of from six month to one year depending on the family debt for which they were advanced."

If that is true, and you seem to believe almost everything of this report, then it completely discredits your view. But surely you will give us lengthy explanations for why this part of the report is wrong.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

bam_booJun. 01, 2015 - 01:28PM JST

They were also treated in hospitals if injured or found STD.

Where else could they have been treated in such cases? Don't understand how this stands against my point.

Oh, it is because you said "I beg your pardon but absolutely nobody in the comfort station system cared about the wellbeing of the comfort women and your suggestion is outright absurd." and I think they were well taken care of.

which is a clear reference to how young girls were cheated and subsequently obviously also coerced:

That goes to the point Luce-A was making.

Luce-AMay. 28, 2015 - 05:11AM JST

"Many agents should have required special attention. Some of them accentuated the name of the armies as much as they might hurt the credibility of the armies and cause misunderstanding among the public, others recruited women without control through war correspondents or entertainers, and others selected the wrong agents who took a kidnapping approach to recruit women so that the polices arrested them."

That was excerpt from Japanese Army document during WW2. There were wrong kind of agents, and Japanese police was arresting them. Despite such efforts by Japanese police and army, in some cases, ianfu were trailered by the agents/pimps. Once in debt bondage, there were not much poor debtors could do in those days. But it is unknown how many such cases existed. I think Korean government should prosecute the agents/pimps since the crime of trafficking took place in Korea and the agents/pimps are presumably Koreans. By such efforts, we can have better understanding of the whole picture.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

@CH3CHO -

Your counter-arguments are nothing more than "I do not think so." Cannot you make this comment section more productive by giving reference or reasoning to your argument?

Only because YOU say so and have ignored the evidence that I have given and only chose to comment on very few parts that could be refuted or suspect. I seriously doubt that you have looked into any of the links that I have given you.

I knew you would bring that US military document up. And I have just the answer for it. And it is dead on correct as well. Yes, I think so!

http://fendnow.org/2014/11/denialist-talking-points-1-1944-u-s-military-report-on-comfort-women/

Personally I prefer this as well.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Japanese_Military%27s_%22Comfort_Women%22_System#Evidence_Related_to_the_Comfort_Women_System

I believe that is even more evidence to prove my point. Since my counter arguments are nothing more than “I don’t think so”. I believe it is also “productive references” and gives “reference AND reasoning to my argument”.

I doubt you will read it though.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Probably not

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@ CH3CHO

and I think they were well taken care of.

Yes, as a commodity to keep up fighting spirit. There surely were individuals within the IJA that cared about the comfort women, and about humans in general, but they apparently didn't have a say on the overall inhumane IJA strategies.

Sorry CH3CHO, but it says:

"Early in May of 1942 Japanese agents arrived in Korea for the purpose of enlisting Korean girls for "comfort service" in newly conquered Japanese territories in Southeast Asia."

Which is completely different from what you and Luce-A are saying.

You are trying to make it look like as if there was a clear distinction between the IJA and the local brokers wich is not true, at least if we're talking about the time after 1942-43. It is quite apparent that, much as with the other aspects of the war, things were getting out of control and the IJA wasn't able to keep up with even the most basic of standards it had set itself.

There were wrong kind of agents, and Japanese police was arresting them.

I know that there are some reports about arrested agents in Korea until 1938 or 39 but I don't think there were any noticeable arrest later then that. It is obvious that the IJA loosened its policies to get enough women to the frontline.

@ sandiegoluv

thanks for the informative links. Especially the first link supports what I have said before: one needs to look at the context of the 1944 report to understand why it is so full of contradictory information.

The information is not properly edited, not verified, from contradicting resources and the way it was attained makes it almost impossible to gain any information about violence against women.

Also the wikisource article is well compiled and able to uncover the shallowness of the arguments of CH3CHO and Luce-A.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

My pleasure bam_boo. I was just waiting for that to come out in debate because the inconsistencies are too often ignored by the right wing.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@Luce-A

confusing comfort women with sex slaves. They were two entire separate cases

Sorry Luce, but is comfort women not a Japanese term, and was it not used to refer to all the women at the comfort stations regardless of their individual circumstances or how they got there? Though it might be a good idea to drop the term and use either sex slave or prostitute for each women according to the situation they were each in, the fact is that everyone involved in this debate does use the term comfort women and they do use it to mean all the women involved, so I don't see how you can either expect to change that or declare that it means something else. Furthermore, exploiting women to force them into paid sex work is only very marginally less heinous than using them as sex slaves, and still requires acknowledgment and remorse.

where there are accusations of abduction, coercion and trickery etc, we have to be very specific who was doing it

Whoever was doing the coercion, the more important thing is who the end user was. And that was the IJA, and the final responsibility does therefore rest with them.

The Army was in Asia to rid it of Western imperialists and fight a war, not do social work

The army was in Asia to secure Asian resources for Japan's expansion. Even the Yushukan version tells us this.

Had Japan not been forced into war, the situation would never have arisen

Forced into war by invading China? The U.S. embargoes against Japan came years after Japanese aggression against China started. The Nanking ..."incident" (ahem!) happened in 1937. The oil embargo, which the Yushukan tells us forced Japan to attack America, started in 1940. The Yushukan version omits what Japan was doing in China, and if you believe that Japan was doing no wrong there then it follows that you believe Japan was forced into war. Unfortunately, Japan's invasion of China and shocking behaviour there is well documented; Japan brought the trade embargo upon itself. Japan wasn't forced into war by anyone but itself; there was another option.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@Yoshitsune

There were no welfare benefits in the first half the century, as there still is now for the majority of people in the world. If you were born poor, female, the second or third daughter, or your husband died; you killed yourself, went into service, or joined the "hospitality industry" which included prostitution.

Putting aside those who voluntary chose to join the business, and many women for many different reasons (mostly financial but also for enjoying the relative freedom it offered), if they were victims, they were victims to being born the wrong sex at the wrong time.

Everyone on these threads, including the professional trolls, knows that there is a re-branding exercising going on to exaggerate what happened in order to economically damage Japan, to damage political and military support for Japan primarily in the USA, and for internal political reasons both in Japan and the US.

Does it matter how the women got where they got? Of course so. It's critical.

Again and again and again we read of how locals were involved in the abductions and coercion of women and running the brothel.

Have you once heard the Japan Hate Mob admit up to that and even include them in their accusations?

Of course they have not. Because they, pretty much everyone from the re-dress movement to the outrightly nationalists or racists are not seeking anything just or moral; anything healing for the remaining victims.

When we read something like this about Japanese academics joining in, you have to look closely at their motivations, examine and question them too in order to remove any distortion.

If only all the Japan Hate mongers would spend 10% of the time on spread hate, lies and exaggerations on a positive project such as the Polaris Project we could stop the pain and sorrow of tomorrows sex trafficking.

I hope that everyone investing they time in futile and unproductive arguments about what did or did not happened 70 years ago, or anyone exploiting it for their political ends (such as Clinton etc), stops and thinks for one moment than by doing so they chose to ignore helping the young women who are being raped today and will be traded and raped tomorrow.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

CH3CHO? No refuting yesterdays posts?

There were no welfare benefits in the first half the century, as there still is now for the majority of people in the world. If you were born poor, female, the second or third daughter, or your husband died; you killed yourself, went into service, or joined the "hospitality industry" which included prostitution.

Not as many women were involved in the business as you think and most of the time it was not voluntarily done. There were many other jobs that were available to women at the time. Cooking, cleaning and many other jobs. Not just prostitution.

Putting aside those who voluntary chose to join the business, and many women for many different reasons (mostly financial but also for enjoying the relative freedom it offered

),

Freedom? Oh, my. I guess you don’t read that everyday. Fact of the matter there was little freedom afforded them unless they were a high classed gesha and even then their freedom was limited and there were people in charge of them. There was no freedom for the common prostitute and she was generally controlled by a male pimp.

if they were victims, they were victims to being born the wrong sex at the wrong time.

And of men who victimized them and prostituted them.

Everyone on these threads, including the professional trolls,

Back to rudeness? Why are WE trolls? What about you? How do we know that YOU are not one?

knows that there is a re-branding exercising going on to exaggerate what happened in order to economically damage Japan, to damage political and military support for Japan primarily in the USA, and for internal political reasons both in Japan and the US.

Accusations, accusations abound. Prove that. I see no proof at all of that and can not fathom where you get that from at all.

Does it matter how the women got where they got? Of course so. It's critical. Again and again and again we read of how locals were involved in the abductions and coercion of women and running the brothel. Have you once heard the Japan Hate Mob admit up to that and even include them in their accusations? Of course they have not. Because they, pretty much everyone from the re-dress movement to the outrightly nationalists or racists are not seeking anything just or moral; anything healing for the remaining victims.

Ah, more name calling. We are TROLLS and now part of the Japan Hate Mod. LOL. There maybe some people who hate Japan. Just like there are people out there who hate America too. As goes the case with every country. Anyway, it is very untrue to say that people who oppose your opinion don’t admit that some of the women were abducted by their own people. I believe I said something like that just yesterday. I have said it quite often. And I have heard others say it as well. So, that is clearly misrepresentation of your opponent.

When we read something like this about Japanese academics joining in, you have to look closely at their motivations, examine and question them too in order to remove any distortion.

When we read something like this about revisionist and deniers joining in, you have to look closely at their motivations, examine and question them too in order to remove any distortion.

If only all the Japan Hate mongers would spend 10% of the time on spread hate, lies and exaggerations on a positive project such as the Polaris Project we could stop the pain and sorrow of tomorrows sex trafficking.

If only all the revisionist and deniers would spend 10% of the time on spread hate, lies and exaggerations on a positive project such as the Polaris Project we could stop the pain and sorrow of tomorrows sex trafficking.

Why is it that we are Japan haters if we seek the truth and acknowledgment of what happened? The label is ridiculously unfair and unsupported in many cases when your argument does not work out.

I hope that everyone investing they time in futile and unproductive arguments about what did or did not happened 70 years ago,

I am sorry that we were not buying what you were giving us.

or anyone exploiting it for their political ends (such as Clinton etc),

Character assignations without any proof.

stops and thinks for one moment than by doing so they chose to ignore helping the young women who are being raped today and will be traded and raped tomorrow.

I think you need to do that as well.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Academics are just bunch of political disturbers who are insensitive to present day rape torture and murder of thousands of women in the Middle East but who want to bring Abe and conservative sector to it's knees for Japan's remote past. Put this academics on the boat and let them sail far from Japan.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

@Luce

Everyone on these threads, including the professional trolls

I sincerely hope you are not including me in that little ad hominem attack. I don't see anyone here fitting the description of a troll, though you might want to be a bit more careful with the wording of some of your own posts.

Does it matter how the women got where they got? Of course so. It's critical. Again and again and again we read of how locals were involved in the abductions and coercion of women and running the brothel. Have you once heard the Japan Hate Mob admit up to that and even include them in their accusations?

Well, I'm not sure who the Japan Hate Mob is, there's no such thing so it's hard to answer that question. But I do acknowledge that locals were involved, as seem to do all the other posters here who support the comfort women. The involvement of locals does not absolve Japan of responsibility.

When we read something like this about Japanese academics joining in, you have to look closely at their motivations, examine and question them too in order to remove any distortion

Their motivations seem to me to be truth and honour, and sympathy for the victims.

I hope that everyone investing they time in futile and unproductive arguments about what did or did not happened 70 years ago, or anyone exploiting it for their political ends (such as Clinton etc), stops and thinks for one moment than by doing so they chose to ignore helping the young women who are being raped today and will be traded and raped tomorrow

I would say that arguing that Japan did no wrong 70 years ago is doing far more to aid the traffickers of today - if a nation could set up comfort stations and abuse large numbers of women like that and get away with it, what kind of example does that set?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

sandiegoluvJun. 01, 2015 - 04:26PM JST

What is the point of your first link? What it does at best is to present possible interpretation of the material.

The Congressional Research Service Memorandum does not say much either. The discussion here is,

Some historians also dispute how directly the Japanese military was involved, and whether women were coerced to become “comfort women.”

Now, what does the CRS Memo say?

(1) The evidence is clear that the Japanese government and military directly created the comfort women system.

Agreed.

(2) The evidence describes the involvement of the Japanese military at all stages in the operation of the system:

Here again, "Involvement".

Of the 400 plus testimonies cited in Yuki Tanaka's Japan's Comfort Women, nearly 200 of these women described forcible seizure by Japanese military or military police officials or by agents of the military.

I wonder how he could cite "400 plus testimonies" in his 235 page book. http://www.amazon.com/Japans-Comfort-Women-Asias-Transformations-ebook/dp/B000OT85VS http://www.ukessays.com/essays/history/comfort-women.php Most of it is devoted to something other than testimonies.

Testimony by Filipino and Chinese women and Japanese military documents also describe widespread rapes by Japanese soldiers in China and the Philippines.

Now the topic moves to "rapes" from "comfort women".

The evidence points to deception as a common practice of military and military contractor procurers.

Why do not Koreans arrest the contractors in Korea to make the picture clear for everyone? The military authority during WW2 was against use of deceptive measures in recruiting ianfu, as seen in Yoshimi's "finding".

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

What is the point of your first link? What it does at best is to present possible interpretation of the material.

Muddying the waters again I see. Are you claiming you know better than these 16 academic societies?

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@ Luce-A

As the evidence seems to pose some serious problems to your line of argument you now resort to spinning yarn about hard life in old days, fabulating about anti-Japanese conspiracies and accusing critics of WW2 Japanese military conduct of ignoring the rape of young women today?

This was one of the most irrational collection of thoughts I've found lined up together in one post at JT up to now.

I don't know who you are referring to when you say "Japan hate mob", but I would be careful with such kind of harsh general accusations of people from various different backgrounds who share nothing more then having expressed critical views about one or another aspect of Japanese history or politics.

You are putting yourself in corner and at the end everybody will think that you actually are in a corner. But who knows maybe that's where you want to be?

4 ( +6 / -2 )

You are putting yourself in corner and at the end everybody will think that you actually are in a corner. But who knows maybe that's where you want to be?

No argument there

0 ( +2 / -2 )

bam_booJun. 01, 2015 - 06:32PM JST

"Early in May of 1942 Japanese agents arrived in Korea for the purpose of enlisting Korean girls for "comfort service" in newly conquered Japanese territories in Southeast Asia."

Which is completely different from what you and Luce-A are saying.

Why? "Japanese agents" were most likely Korean pimps.

I know that there are some reports about arrested agents in Korea until 1938 or 39 but I don't think there were any noticeable arrest later then that.

That is based on what?

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

@CH3CHO

What is the point of your first link?

If you took the time to read the link you not be asking me that question.

The Congressional Research Service Memorandum does not say much either. The discussion here is,

Some historians also dispute how directly the Japanese military was involved, and whether women were coerced to become “comfort women.”

Now, what does the CRS Memo say?

It says quite a bit. Read it very carefully.

(1) The evidence is clear that the Japanese government and military directly created the comfort women system.

Agreed.

(2) The evidence describes the involvement of the Japanese military at all stages in the operation of the system:

Here again, "Involvement".

Yes, exactly. So...... why are we debating? I am not sure that I am following the spin that you are trying to make there. My apologies.

Testimony by Filipino and Chinese women and Japanese military documents also describe widespread rapes by Japanese soldiers in China and the Philippines.

Now the topic moves to "rapes" from "comfort women"

Hey, that was in there. I didn't write that. Why are you trying to pin that on me as if I said it? LOL

Why do not Koreans arrest the contractors in Korea to make the picture clear for everyone?

I wholeheartedly agree with you there. They should, but I am pretty sure they won't. That is sad.

The military authority during WW2 was against use of deceptive measures in recruiting ianfu, as seen in Yoshimi's "finding".

Yeah, that was dependent upon where the soldier was. Ah, I will allow Professor Hirofumi Hayashi to answer that question. Enjoy the read, please.

http://www.geocities.jp/hhhirofumi/eng16.htm

The evidence points to deception as a common practice of military and military contractor procurers.

Did you really want to put that in? I think that more or less helps my point than yours. Yes, many of the girls were deceived and as the professor states, many of them were abducted as well.

I am also confused why you were showing us that other link as well.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

sandiegoluvJun. 02, 2015 - 04:30PM JST

If you took the time to read the link you not be asking me that question.

I have read it. The link just keeps beating around the bush without making any point. I take your answer as your white flag.

Why do not Koreans arrest the contractors in Korea to make the picture clear for everyone?

I wholeheartedly agree with you there. They should, but I am pretty sure they won't. That is sad.

If they won't, they do not have any right to complain Japan, for such an act is selective justice. The ones who committed an alleged crime should be punished first, before someone, involved in the case because of the wrongdoing of the former, is punished.

Ah, I will allow Professor Hirofumi Hayashi to answer that question. Enjoy the read, please.

OK.

Type-2 stations were mostly found in rural areas where strong anti-Japanese resistance was encountered and the local population as a whole was considered anti-Japanese by the army. There Japanese troops routinely abducted women, confined them and repeatedly raped them.

Here again. What he calls "type-2 stations" were not comfort stations. The women were pure rape victims, and were not comfort women. What he is doing is tantamount to calling rape victims "prostitutes", and using their plight for the benefit of ianfu. The rest of his essay just capitalizes the confusion of two totally different cases.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

@Ch3ChO0

I have read it. The link just keeps beating around the bush without making any point. I take your answer as your white flag.

Why would you think that I was willing to throw in the white towel for something as nonsensical as that? You did not prove anything at all except your own ignorance. Next time you choose a fight, pick a weaker opponent. You will never win this argument because I have the truth on my side. I can and have shown that I can back up my side each and every time.

Oh, I am sorry was the last comment to save your face? Was that was that was all about?

You did not read a thing. Not one bit. You did not even click the link cause if you did, you would have never said something as irrational as that. There is absolutelty no way that you could have read it and came away with THAT OPINION!!!!!!

What it does tell me is that you did not read it, because if you did you would provide case in point examples about why it was the way you saw it, but you did not cause you could not. The report hurt your feelings and destroyed your beliefs.

Everything you said is self serving for your argument.

Do you actually continue to think that you were making the argument for the side that you oppose? It actually looks like you are making OUR argment.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

sandiegoluvJun. 03, 2015 - 01:55AM JST

You did not read a thing. Not one bit. You did not even click the link cause if you did, you would have never said something as irrational as that. There is absolutelty no way that you could have read it and came away with THAT OPINION!!!!!!

I have read it. I know, for sure, you are on the wrong side of the truth as far as "whether I read the link" is concerned. And from my view point, it is clear that you are weak in establishing facts. It is your losing battle, for you have no way of proving "I have not read it."

Why do not you discuss the content of your link, rather than arguing if I read it? As I have already mentioned, I think the link pointless. If you think otherwise, you may as well discuss which part of the link is meaningful and why.

By the way, this is your link. http://fendnow.org/2014/11/denialist-talking-points-1-1944-u-s-military-report-on-comfort-women/

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

Again, are you saying you know better than all these academics? How so?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

@ CH3CHO

Why? "Japanese agents" were most likely Korean pimps.

Are you guessing or just pretending to know?

Most historians believe that while such agents surely were violating the rights of the women their commissioner and principal, the IJA, was as at least as responsible if not more as it was the instigator of the crimes, Also the IJA was the organizer of the system the crimes were committed for and in and was in addition also responsible for overseeing the system and preventing that such crimes could happen.

As we know from plenty of evidence the IJA was involved in various ways in the recruiting, from commissioning (mainly in Korea) to abducting directly (mainly in China and other Asian nations).

I know that there are some reports about arrested agents in Korea until 1938 or 39 but I don't think there were any noticeable arrest later then that.

That is based on what?

On news articles that mention such arrests. There are a number of such articles up until 1938/39, but I haven't seen any from the 1940ies. I have to admit though that I got this information from Japanese right-wing web pages that promote the same theories like CH3CHO and Luce-A about a "philanthropic" IJA and that compile every bit of potentially "exculpatory" evidence.

Here again. What he calls "type-2 stations" were not comfort stations.

Says who?

Hayashi has done an incredible amount of researched on the topic and surely knows a lot more about the system of comfort stations the you. His points are concise, well reasoned, backed up by evidence and his view is comprehensive as he is connecting various levels of information.

While serious historians like Yoshimi and Hayashi are doing lengthy original research and combine their findings to comprehensive and convincing theories, right-wingers do the opposite and try to fragment information and look only at the details and numbers.

And even when referring to a seemingly "IJA friendly" researcher like Park Yu Ha they omit her overall conclusion, which is that comfort women were badly mistreated and that the IJA bears a large part of the responsibility for that.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Faith in Japan restored.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

CH3CHO

And from my view point, it is clear that you are weak in establishing facts.

I have well established a huge amount of facts. Many you did not refute because you could not. Mounds of evidence has been given you, you just keep denying them and word games.

Why do not you discuss the content of your link, rather than arguing if I read it?

I have done that numerous times on this post and other posts. It was pointless because you always change the focus when proven wrong or just ignore the points altogether. I know how you are. You have had me chasing my tail around a lot. Enough of that. I allow the truth to speak to you in the form of documentation. Even documented proof you just deny, so why would I waste my time debating with you anymore?

Yes, that is the link I provided to you. A very good link.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Many you did not refute because you could not. Mounds of evidence has been given you, you just keep denying them and word games.

Exactly

3 ( +4 / -1 )

I hear crickets.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@Luce

You have just told me, over on the "450 mostly Western scholars press Abe on war history" thread that, and I quote:

"Empathy" has no place in such a discussion and is a waste of time on the dead

...and here you are talking about it. Many comfort women are not yet dead. They live, but where is your empathy for them? You have none because they're all racist liars?

when we read 2 million children die from preventable causes every year in India, we feel nothing

Speak for yourself.

And China is hardly in a moral position to berate others for historical revision!

Perhaps not, but that's pretty irrelevant to the issue of the Japanese government facing up to its responsibility over comfort women.

As is the rest of your post; off-topic and irrelevant.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

Sandie, perhaps you have not noticed but those you claim were criminals are all dead.

So, I ask again, what do you want to do ... dig up their bones, scream at them and crush them with a hammer?

Or do you want to punish their children from their parent's actions?

You really don't have a very deep understanding of the history. Japan assiduously followed the European model of Imperial and played by the rules ... until it realized that the Whites, and in particular the USA, was not (that's not my opinion, it's widely accepted in academia).

At that point I wonder what you think Japan should have done ... just surrender, or fight to the death?

Japan and the USA are still fighting ... it's just that wars take place mainly in the economic realm these days.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

YoshitsuneJun. 03, 2015 - 10:53PM JST

Many comfort women are not yet dead. They live, but where is your empathy for them? You have none because they're all racist liars?

What do you call a person who changes her testimony every time she testifies? I think you have already read the written versions and oral versions of Korean former ianfu, at the US Congressional hearing. http://archives.republicans.foreignaffairs.house.gov/110/33317.pdf

These testimonies are actually obstacles to reconciliation.

the Japanese government facing up to its responsibility over comfort women.

Responsibility has many aspects.

Legal responsibilities were all settled by San Francisco Peace Treaty in 1951 and Korea Japan Basic Treaty of 1965. In addition, US Supreme Court turned down class action lawsuiteby Korean former ianfu against Japanese Government, Hwang et al v Japan. http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-dc-circuit/1008406.html

Indeed, Article 26 of the Treaty obligated Japan to enter “bilateral” peace treaties with non-Allied states “on the same or substantially the same terms as are provided for in the present treaty,” which indicates the Allied Powers expected Japan to resolve other states' claims, like their own, through government-to-government agreement.   To the extent the subsequent treaties between Japan and the governments of the appellants' countries resolved the claims of their respective nationals, the 1951 Treaty at a minimum obliges the courts of the United States not to disregard those bilateral resolutions.

Humanitarian responsiblities were fulfilled by AWF.

So, what responsibility is left, except keeping the true records of history, which Japan does, and is more of historian's job, than government's, through fact based open discussion?

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

@ Luce-A JUN. 03, 2015 - 10:27PM JST

Bam-boo is an even a more exaggerated case. They deny the variety of experience and then call anyone that point them out "deniers".

Again, like "self-hating Japanese, a term borrowed from the Zionist or Holocaust industry.

I'm kind of lost. I don't know what you are referring to and am not able to follow your winding line of argument.

Just to your information, I'm not a Chinese conspiracy.

If I'd be living in China most probably I would be under close observation for voicing critical opinions about politics there, but I don't live in China and I'm thankful that Japan does still allow for some freedom of speech, though it seems with the Abe government the wind is turning and people are getting more careful about what they say in public.

If you want to argue about Chinese conspiracy theories and "self-hating Japanese" I think you'll have to find someone else. I'm just here to fully support the Japanese academics who bravely voice their critical opinion about denying historical facts.

Anyway I'm happy if you challenge me about any of the historical facts and their interpretation.

@ CH3CHO JUN. 04, 2015 - 09:33AM JST

What do you call a person who changes her testimony every time she testifies?

Again taking the worms's eye view of things?

I don't think theres any human who could give a consistent account of a traumatic experience of more the 40 years ago, of course less so under the societal pressure in Korea.

But are you trying to say that the hundreds and hundreds of resembling accounts of women from various nations are all lies?

Are you trying to make us believe that the consistent descriptions of the cruel, inhumane comportment of the IJA towards women is all just anti-Japanese conspiracies?

Also the "a few black sheep" theory isn't credible at all as we know very well that in regard to sexual abuse and violence against women the dark figures are much higher then for most other forms of crime.

Responsibility has many aspects.

Very true, but you are seemingly only interested in the aspects that bring closure to Japan, not closure to the victims of Japanese crimes.

I think that Germany is a great example of taking responsibility for its actions in a way that focusses on the understanding of the victims feelings. As long as there are remotely credible claims Germany will not just hide behind the "we have signed this and that and therefore we are not responsible any more", but try to get to a point of proper reconciliation. For Germany this was not at all an easy path and even now, in the case of Greek claims, Germany is not just blocking, but considering how to accommodate.

As there are many differences between Japan and Germany I don't think it is possible to take Germany as a model, but I do believe it can inspire Japan to get to a more relaxed and comforting attitude towards the former victims of its atrocities. And the German case also shows, you don't have to swallow every claim to do so.

The Japanese and foreign historian community made it clear, the current Japanese government is not credible in terms of how it views Japanese history.

This is not about Japan being bullied or having to face any conspiracies, it is about the ability of the leaders to take a credible stance.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

@Luce

As rude as accusing an entire population of individuals of crimes, or demand that they apologize for crimes that they never commit and that they indoctrinate their children to hate themselves?

It's rude of you to keep implying that I'm doing that. I quote from my own previous post (in which I was already repeating the statement from the post before that!); "I already said this above, but it appears I need to repeat it. It has nothing to do with today's Japanese". Kindly take note of that. It has nothing to do with blaming the Japanese of today. Stop putting words into my mouth.

"Many"? I'd say "some" who are quickly dwindling to a "few"

Do you wish they'd hurry up so you can say their suffering doesn't matter because they're dead?

And many of those who are left were just common prostitutes

And many of them were sex slaves and deserve our sympathy and Japan's acknowledgment.

the famous Kim Hak-sun who started it all off (she admitted she was sold by her parents to Koreans and not abducted)

It is no less heinous to buy a human being than it is to sell one. Both parties are at fault when people are being sold like livestock. Even if you could prove that every single comfort woman was sold by their own parents, Japan would still have been at fault for buying them.

I think we can safely assume most of those who would have been considered true victims are dead

Does that mean their suffering shouldn't be acknowledged?

I am sorry but, 'case closed' for everyone but the hate mob who want to keep recycling their memory for whatever purpose they seek, and nothing to do with todays Japan

Who is the hate mob? Sorry, but the case is not closed. That is precisely why you're here is it not, to fight the rearguard action and keep the case from closing?

I think most Americans are largely ignorant of the history of their own country's involvement in China and Asia and consequently cannot understand the Japanese logic and point of view when they are first confronted by it

And the same can be said of Japan; I think most Japanese are largely ignorant of the history of their own country's involvement in China and Asia and consequently cannot understand their former victims' logic and point of view when they are confronted by it. For example, most Japanese know little to nothing of the Batan death march, the Battle of Manila, the Thai - Burma Death Railway (little surprise given e.g. the Yushukan's loving display of the original locomotive with no explanation of what happened), many Japanese believe there was no massacre at Nanjing or that "only" ten or twenty thousand were killed, and many Japanese believe that the comfort women were all common prostitutes who are lying today to make Japan look bad for their own nefarious purposes or as part of some Chinese-led conspiracy.

So, I ask again, what do you want to do ... dig up their bones, scream at them and crush them with a hammer? Or do you want to punish their children from their parent's actions?

And I say again, it has nothing to do with blaming or punishing the Japanese of today.

You really don't have a very deep understanding of the history. Japan assiduously followed the European model of Imperial and played by the rules ... until it realized that the Whites, and in particular the USA, was not (that's not my opinion, it's widely accepted in academia)

That is not widely accepted at all.

At that point I wonder what you think Japan should have done ... just surrender, or fight to the death?

I think they should have not invaded China in the first place. That was an option.

Japan and the USA are still fighting ... it's just that wars take place mainly in the economic realm these days

Which is a big improvement!

2 ( +4 / -2 )

bam_booJun. 04, 2015 - 02:49PM JST

But are you trying to say that the hundreds and hundreds of resembling accounts of women from various nations are all lies?

Where are "the hundreds and hundreds of resembling accounts"? I have found and read about 20 of them but I do not think there are hundreds of them disclosed to public. In addition, I do not think they are resembling or consistent. If you know where to read hundreds of accounts, please let me know.

bam_booJun. 03, 2015 - 11:27AM JST

Here again. What he calls "type-2 stations" were not comfort stations.

Says who?

It is fairly obvious from his essay. http://www.geocities.jp/hhhirofumi/eng16.htm

Read carefully from the paragraph that begin with

Patterns of two main types can be made out in the acts of sexual violence committed by the Japanese military in different regions.

Thereafter, when he says type 1, he means comfort station or prostitution, and when he says type 2, he means rape.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

@Luce

Sandie, perhaps you have not noticed but those you claim were criminals are all dead. So, I ask again, what do you want to do ... dig up their bones, scream at them and crush them with a hammer? Or do you want to punish their children from their parent's actions?

I love the change of focus here. That is all that your last post was about. Changing the focus. But, since that is what you want to do, fine. No, nobody wants to dig up anyone's bones. And no, they are not all dead. Some of them are still alive, just like the comfort women are.And no nobody wants to punish their children either. What people do want is an admission of what happened and not the denials and insults that are being leveled as these victims are. It needs to be properly taught what happened.

You really don't have a very deep understanding of the history.

Says only you!

Japan assiduously followed the European model of Imperial and played by the rules ... until it realized that the Whites, and in particular the USA, was not (that's not my opinion, it's widely accepted in academia).

It is not at all widely accepted. It is only accepted by revisionist.

At that point I wonder what you think Japan should have done ... just surrender, or fight to the death?

It should have treated its neighbors much better. As I have stated before, Japan was not fairly treated by the west at all. I get that. Everybody gets that. But what Japan did was done of its own free will. Colonialism what took place around the world but there were different degrees of brutality and Japan's was extremely brutal. That is where the problem is. And it must be taught. History can repeat itself if one does not look clearly at its past. Case in point, the USA! It has not learned anything from its past and continues to make the same mistakes over and over again.

Japan and the USA are still fighting ... it's just that wars take place mainly in the economic realm these days.

Maybe so. But that is neither here nor there. This is about what Japan did and did not do in the last century and not coming to grips with.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@ CH3CHO JUN. 04, 2015 - 03:33PM JST

Where are "the hundreds and hundreds of resembling accounts"? I have found and read about 20 of them

Apparently you haven't been looking for them.

So you might have missed the fact that there are accounts of more then 200 former comfort women that came forward in South Korea alone.

Then there are accounts from around 90 Filipino Lolas (that's how comfort women were called there), around 60 from Taiwanese, several dozen from Chinese and Indonesien and then more from Malay, Burmese, East Timorese and some Dutch accounts as well. Apparently there are also more then 100 from North Koreans, but I believe only few of those are published outside the country.

There are various organizations, governmental und NGO's, in the different countries that have collected those accounts. Also there are a number of research papers and published books with many accounts of former comfort women from various nations. If you'd be really interested in the matter you could at least find more then 400 first hand accounts and if you include second hand accounts add some hundred.

Unfortunately there is no central archive and a lot of the accounts are only available in the original languages. The Asian Women's Fund should have been an unbiased place for collecting and archiving such information, but there were political decisions that prevented the AWF from collecting first hand accounts in most Asian countries, so information on the AWF site is lopsided and limited to few official documents and "model cases".

Thereafter, when he says type 1, he means comfort station or prostitution, and when he says type 2, he means rape.

No, that's your very personal misinterpretation of Hayashi's words. He clearly states that both types are "comfort stations".

But even if we're talking about the frequent rapes committed by the IJA or the "improvised comfort stations", that some times were just barracks or rooms amongst the IJA camps in which the abductees were interned, it's all part of the same pattern of habitual violence against women.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

bam_booJun. 05, 2015 - 12:34AM JST

So you might have missed the fact that there are accounts of more then 200 former comfort women that came forward in South Korea alone.

But South Korea does not disclose their accounts to protect their privacy. The same goes with other countries and AWF. We have a stalemate between the need to protect privacy and the need to establish facts.

So, as a second best, we have to discuss based on 20 or so disclosed accounts. I think you also have not read more than 20 accounts. We really cannot say anything "based on hundreds of testimonies".

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

But South Korea does not disclose their accounts to protect their privacy. The same goes with other countries and AWF.

Not all accounts are open to the public, but almost all accounts have been reviewed by researchers and their content is well known.

So, as a second best, we have to discuss based on 20 or so disclosed accounts. I think you also have not read more than 20 accounts.

Even this is not my field of research I have read or viewed more then 60 first hand accounts by former sex slaves of more then 5 nations. Just to give links of a few of my sources:

http://www.icj.org/comfort-women-an-unfinished-ordeal-report-of-a-mission/ The International Commission of Jurists (ICJ) document with a compilation of comfort women accounts

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/chinese-comfort-women-9780199373895?cc=jp&lang=en&# A book featuring 12 Chinese comfort women's accounts

http://www.womandpeace.org.tw/ Website of a NGO that collects the Taiwanese comfort women stories and produced a documentary movie that features some of those accounts

http://www.panos.co.uk/stories/2-13-1144-1650//Comfort-Women/# A photo-documentation about Indonesian comfort women

http://changjinlee.net/cww/ An art and documentation project about the comfort women featuring a video with a selection of interviews.

Looking at all those accounts is truly shocking and one has to bow to the braveness of those women who overcame the dreadful shame and exposed their personal sufferings, thus helping to prevent that such crimes can happen again.

We really cannot say anything "based on hundreds of testimonies".

Why can't we?

It would be absurd to try to ignore all those accounts and even the Japanese governments before Abe never attempted to.

The accounts clearly depict a pattern of violence against women that was common in the IJA and took many different forms, from the frequent mass rapes and the impromptu comfort stations within the IJA camps, where abducted women were confined and abused, to the centrally managed and bureaucratically regulated system of comfort stations.

The image of an inhumane, racist, sexist IJA is consistent and credible throughout all accounts and to deny the reality they speak of means to endorse violence against women.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Asking someone to be more specific is not "rude".

It is what it is. No need to cry sour grapes

0 ( +2 / -2 )

bam_booJun. 05, 2015 - 03:09PM JST

Thank you for the links. The first link has testimonies of 6 filipina. But they are not comfort women but rape victims. It is also written in the report.

(page 55) Although the documents make it clear that comfort houses were established in the Philippines, the majority of the women interviewed there were not in what one might call a typical comfort house

Japanese government is responsible for rapes committed by its soldiers, but we should not confuse rape victims with ianfu.

The first link also has testimonies of Koreans

Yun Soon-Man says she was made ianfu in Osaka, which is most likely untrue because Japanese Military made comfort stations only in occupied areas near the battle field. Osaka had a number brothels of its own and army had no need to build comfort station.

Kim Bok-Sun

Here is another version of her testimony. http://www.truetruth.org/data/images/13.pdf

(page 3) 충청도 청주에 살던 할머니는열여덟 살 때 동네의 보장 (구장이나 이장으로 추측됨) 과 함께 온 사람이 중국으로 가만 돈을 벌 수 있다며 강압적으로 끌고가 중국의 열하성까지 가게 되었습니다

(page 3) When the Grandmother (Kim Bok Sun), who was living in Chong Cheong Do Cheong Ju, was 18 years old, the villege chief (Ku chief or i chief) and one person came and said that she could earn money without doing anything and she was, under pressure, determined to be take to Yol Ha Song in China.

In this testimony of hers no involvment of Japanese police or amry in recruitment.

Here is another version of hers.http://www.mbn.co.kr/pages/news/newsView.php?news_seq_no=1982108

갑자기 문을 차고 일본 순경이 칼을 차고 나타나요. 팔을 끼고 밖으로 끌고나가는 거예요

Suddenly, Japanese policeman with a knife in hand appeared kicking the door. Holding my arm, he dragged me out.

I will comment on other testimonies later.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

@bam_boo

Hayashi's not defining two kinds of "comfort stations".

He's separating two entirely different kinds of incidents that are casually and mistakenly described as "comfort stations".

One of the first things for historians to do is agree on defined terms.

It's also was the Japan Hate activists want to avoid, keeping matters vague and confused in order to exploit their effect and emotional appeal.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Oh brother! Bam_boo and Christopher, it is better to just walk away. Luce and CH3CH0 would make excuses even if they were confronted by God himself with the truth. And this is why we can not have any peace. These two will continue to defend and make excuses to fit the desired history that they want to have which is completely the opposite of the truth. Hey, even we even have people who deny that the holocaust even happened, despite the mountains of evidence. I doubt these two have ever taken the time to try to prove why they could be wrong. Star Search did not have better tap dancing.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@ CH3CHO JUN. 06, 2015 - 05:28PM JST

There are two ways to look at the accounts:

... one is to suspect deceit and look for every individual inconsistency of which there are surely plenty after 50, 60 or 70 years,

... and another one is to look for consistent patterns that can reveal the truth of what had actually happened to all those women from all those different nations.

That's what most historians do and also the International Commission of Jurists in their fact finding report linked above.

@ Luce-A JUN. 07, 2015 - 06:09AM JST

He's separating two entirely different kinds of incidents that are casually and mistakenly described as "comfort stations".

For the women who had to endure the ordeal the incidents were not at all entirely different. They were violence and sexual abuse in one of the most large scales and heinous forms ever recorded.

Serious historians like Hayashi look at the whole topic of sexual abuse and violence against women together, because they're all different faces of the same crime.

It is not even possible to clearly separate them because there were so many different forms of "comfort stations" that ranged from one room or tent in a IJA camp to huge brothels managed by professional pimps under the supervision of the IJA.

To want to separate the comfort station issue from the various forms of violence against women by the IJA is your strategy of "keeping matters vague and confused" in order to blur the truth.

Apparently the whole issue bothers you tremendously, Luce-A, and you do seem to feel personally responsible as a Japanese for what the world believes has happened at the hands of your forefathers.

It is a good and natural attitude to feel responsible for your heritage, but I wouldn't take it so personal because it will make it more difficult for you to accept the uncomfortable truth.

@ sandiegoluv

Oh brother! Bam_boo and Christopher, it is better to just walk away. Luce and CH3CH0 would make excuses even if they were confronted by God himself with the truth.

Well said.

It is frustrating at times, but the only way to cope with such obstinate denialism is to again and again expose its baselessness.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

I disagree.

If an individual is not doing anything practical to help young female war victims today, then it's most likely their motivations are just anti-Japan.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Absolute nonsense. Complete non sequitur.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

What is a "habitual"?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Absolute nonsense, Yoshitsune. Complete fallacy.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

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