politics

Japanese lawmaker under fire for LGBT comment

107 Comments
By YURI KAGEYAMA

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107 Comments
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Utter idiot. Not everyone is going to become gay just because a relatively small number are.

Incredible that such fools can get elected.

8 ( +24 / -16 )

"Criticizing LGBT would create problems, but if everyone became like them then a nation would collapse."

Such a logic-free statement you wonder how the guy can even get through the day.

12 ( +25 / -13 )

A Japanese legislator is drawing criticism for his comment that "a nation would collapse" if everyone became LGBT.

How about saying a nation would colllapse if there wasn't any young people to replace old people for doing and saying ridiculous thing. He is 73 year olds this year.

8 ( +16 / -8 )

Any nation would collapse if everyone became LGBT.

13 ( +25 / -12 )

At least he didn’t mean it as a joke.

-6 ( +6 / -12 )

Incredible that such fools can get elected.

Not when you have a constituency that thinks the same way. LGBT issues are not openly talked about by most of the people, because far too many here are ignorant and choose to keep their heads in the sand.

Everyone "knows" about it, but it's a problem for "someone else" and it's best to keep your mouth shut.

2 ( +10 / -8 )

The LDP, as out of touch and out of their minds as ever.

5 ( +15 / -10 )

For or against LGBT, it is his liberty to express his opinion under democracy.

1 ( +15 / -14 )

At what age do Japanese lawmaker's retire?

5 ( +12 / -7 )

They don't retire their whole sence of self worth is wrapped up in being a "politician" feeling important because of their position and without it they are just grumpy old men people would avoid.

8 ( +12 / -4 )

What an idiot, he believes humanity would suddenly choose to be gay, as if it is a choice, because the law recognises same sex relationships. What a stupid ignorant disgrace he is.

13 ( +20 / -7 )

What an idiot.

Politicians should deal with real-world existing problems, not invent hypothetical ones to bash minorities. One in six children in Japan is in a poor household (half median income or less). That has a bigger effect on "the low birth rate".

8 ( +15 / -7 )

@Ex_Res, sadly never soon enough, the out of touch gaffs, the lack of understanding of the modern world, rose coloured glasses backwards looking, misogynistic , homophobic, xenophobic... but its not just a problem in Japan.. sadly world over.

Wouldn't it be great if the public was more comfortable putting the future in the hands of younger more progressive people that actually have a reason to care about it, rather than a bunch of old guys mistakenly trying to keep things comfortable for them rather than what actually is best for most people.

@Schopenhauer, in an ideal world politicians are suppose to represent all their constituents some of whom are LGBTQ and many of whom probably don't have a problem with recognizing a non-hetero relationship. If a couple no matter their gender/sex is of adult age and already together what business is it of mine or anyone else's how that is recognized by the state.

Yes, I think people should be able to express opinion, but the mistake people seem to be making lately is, that doesn't make you immune to the consequences of stating that opinion and that, just like here, people are free to comment on that opinion with their own...

8 ( +11 / -3 )

"Criticizing LGBT would create problems, but if everyone became like them then a nation would collapse."

Not necessarily. A well-organised LGBT-only society with good IVF, artificial insemination etc programs could very well survive and even thrive.

1 ( +11 / -10 )

Katsuei Hirasawa is a small Aso. He was born in 1945 and is a diet member since 1996 his 8th consecutive terms. He is known as an outspoken man. He is a former police bureaucrat. a graduate of Tokyo University Law School. Despite his long career, he has not become a minister due to his occasional inadvertent comments. But his honesty attracts voters of down town Tokyo - Katsushika and Edogawa commoners areas.

-5 ( +4 / -9 )

Another roar from the primeval LDP swamp.

8 ( +15 / -7 )

Katsuei Hirasawa is a small Aso

What an appalling thought.

12 ( +15 / -3 )

"Criticizing LGBT would create problems, but if everyone became like them then a nation would collapse."

Accurate comment in so far as population goes.

More feigned PC outrage.

-11 ( +10 / -21 )

Accurate comment in so far as population goes.

Engage the critical faculties, sport. Do you really think Hirasawa was making a strictly logical comment on the likely effects on a population of a sudden and inexplicable mass conversion to homosexuality?

Then take a look at some of the other homophobic comments on this thread, and you might get a glimpse of what this guy's real problem is with gays.

13 ( +17 / -4 )

The distribution of LBQT people is roughly the same in all societies and cultures, though wome ore brutally repressive and others more accepting. No society or culture in history has been threatened with collapse due to their presence. Simply another knotheaded remark from a member of the knothead party that has ruled Japan since the occupation ended. It's a tragedy that the US didn't do more to entrench democracy while they had the chance, but when you read comments like these, you have to wonder whether Japan is ready for it, even now.

9 ( +12 / -3 )

Engage the critical faculties, sport.

LOL. Got a chuckle out of that, cheers.

Do you really think Hirasawa was making a strictly logical comment on the likely effects on a population of a sudden and inexplicable mass conversion to homosexuality?

Then take a look at some of the other homophobic comments on this thread, and you might get a glimpse of what this guy's real problem is with gays.

Enlighten me about what his problem is considering he said "criticizing LGBT would create problems"...

Seems like a rational and decent stance to me.

Let's not discriminate or, in any other way, be nasty towards LGBT people, particularly anything that smacks of systematic abuse/discrimination, but lets, at the same time, recognize that its men and women getting together to have babies that keeps the population clock ticking.

And given that the world is yet to find a solution to deteriorating population numbers at scale, which Japan is already suffering from, its not a completely wild comment to suggest a significant collapse of all of suddenly everyone "became LGBT" which I don't think is going to happen.

Certainly we can see what has happened over time as communities have stagnated and declined in population, particularly when they are isolated. You see at the local level of villages and throughout history, entire civilizations.

Fortunately for Japan, they don't need to be isolated, they need to be smart in terms of supporting the traditional family and smart in terms of immigration.

-10 ( +6 / -16 )

Someone told me that staunch anti-gay people are actually secretly gay. I disagreed, but he based his views on the 10s of thousands of gay priests, who spend all they time saying gay is a sin.

8 ( +8 / -0 )

@Yubaru, if not sarcasm, I would say, there are some angry people out there, I have to guess they are not happy in their own lives to be so concerned with other peoples.

When I was much younger I had some homophobic ideas, but through work and some friends, I met several same sex couples who had been in long loving relationships, (a couple of whom I had no idea were gay for years because it didn't come up and wasn't my business) and realized, any ick factor I had was my own issue and that my preconceived ideas about what "lifestyle" was associated with the LGBTQ community was something mostly made up.

People are just people and in this case they happen to be attracted to something different from me, but who cares, rock on and and be happy, in our average 80yrs or so why not look for joy, love, positivity and the most freedom not anger and division.

To those who have a more negative view, I would just say ask yourself, why you are so concerned about what goes on in other peoples private lives, perhaps your attractions fall into the more accepted but if it didn't, or there was a major societal shift would you want a bunch of other people getting into your personal business, calling you disgusting and deviant?

Im not sure about anyone else but I don't really see a problem with openness about it either, I'm personally attracted to the opposite sex and no amount of openness or seeing same sex couples will change that, so once again wonder really what all the complaints are about, says more about the complainers I feel.

13 ( +13 / -0 )

Well, the comment is logical as some posters have remarked.

However, there are other negative nuances contained in the article.

Certainly same sex couples may adopt in some parts of the world and even find donors to do the biologically possible which is biologically impossible for the same sex couple.

However,Japan is not current with these advances.

To suggest that same sex couples are less than equal to heterosexual couples is going off on the wrong track.....

1 ( +4 / -3 )

That’s true. If everyone became LGBT, then a nation would collapse. What’s wrong with saying the truth?

-11 ( +5 / -16 )

I think it would be helpful to educate Hirasawa-san and other posters that LGBT persons do marry and/or have children naturally or through adoption. He was speaking from a place of ignorance and personal bias.

8 ( +10 / -2 )

@Meiyouwenti

Because it will never happen, and even if it did doesn't mean that isn't ways to continue a population, but thats irrelevant because this isn't about population or birthrate its about people having issues with LGBTQ people.

The population problem is an issue of low wages, long hours and a long stagnant economy this is just deflection from the real issues using people's bias's and prejudice.

8 ( +9 / -1 )

And please show me a single instance throughout that history of civilization where LGBT has caused a decline in population. Just one. Otherwise, admit that this is all completely irrelevant.

It clearly never has, as far as we know. The politicians point was that if all of sudden, through some magical process everyone "became LGBT" that the population would significantly decline, which would lead to a form of societal collapse. Firstly, I don't that magic is going to happen, but secondly, his basic premise seems a fairly logical one were that magic to happen.

Not sure about whether its irrelevant or not. In relation to what precisely?

-7 ( +4 / -11 )

i dont have an issue with the L and the G, I mean, a strict interpretation of the old testament does declare it to be an abomination, but I have never judged them. The T part, I think thats just an act. Whats next? I was born a chimp? So I can dress up in a chimp costume and bark at people, its my right? I think the T rights are ridiculous. a man with a beard wearing a dress...bizzaro

-12 ( +2 / -14 )

@Matt, then why say it at all. Silly old man gaff perhaps, but it helps persistent hurtful nonsense.

8 ( +8 / -0 )

The nations population is collapsing now, that has nothing to do with LGBT folks.

These statements and the many idiotic comments in this thread display what is really going on, hatred of people who are different from you. Like racism, no different. It is all counterproductive to the growth of society as LGBT people generally do better economically that straights.

http://time.com/money/4490124/gay-couples-outearn-others/

So if Japan wants to grow economically then it should let LGBT folks be treated equally.

The statement by Hirasawa is moronic on the face of it. We are who we are due to our genes not due to anything else. It is like saying if we all grew wings we would not need cars. It is true but moronic. Are these wings growing now?

10 ( +12 / -2 )

@Shawn, why should anyone (or anyone else other someone that does) cares what an old book says?

I get the T is perhaps more difficult to get your head around, but if we forget the stereotype silliness, feeling your entire life that something is wrong about the gender you have been assigned must be tough.

We like to categorize things in specific and unique boxes, numbers and sets but the truth is the human mind, sexuality, attraction, gender (sometimes even biologically) don't always fit neatly, shouldn't the people who feel they don't fit be the ones to work out what works for them.

9 ( +10 / -1 )

@Matt, then why say it at all. Silly old man gaff perhaps, but it helps persistent hurtful nonsense.

Steady on the "old". The silly I can take ;)

I am not trying to be hurtful. I have made it abundantly clear that I do not support discrimination against LGBTI people.

But by the same token, I do tend to take biology and science pretty seriously and you don't need to be Einstein to realize that if standard reproduction does not occur, through the standard methods, a civilization might be in serious trouble without some other large scale intervention.

-10 ( +3 / -13 )

Enlighten me about what his problem is considering he said "criticizing LGBT would create problems"...

Problems for himself, I think he meant!

As for the rest of it, he's hiding his prejudices behind what he thinks is a logically unassailable statement on population growth, or lack of it - whereas the statement (that the nation would collapse) is utterly redundant, because the condition on which it's premised (everyone becoming gay) is utterly nonsensical.

Of course, I guess it's also possible that Hirasawa isn't quite certain of his own sexuality, and thinks that everyone can just flick a switch and go gay?

8 ( +8 / -0 )

For or against LGBT, it is his liberty to express his opinion under democracy.

unless your detained, then your opinion doesnt really matter anymore.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

because the condition on which it's premised (everyone becoming gay) is utterly nonsensical.

It is pretty nonsensical, but you know, the way certain people on the left like to push the agenda of gender politics to the absolute extremes...well.

Of course, I guess it's also possible that Hirasawa isn't quite certain of his own sexuality, and thinks that everyone can just flick a switch and go gay?

You do realize that many leftists think exactly that. That you can flick a switch.

They get kids at adolescent kids, can't even tie their own shoelaces and fill them with hormone blockers, because we think Charlie is actually Charlene. Straight up child abuse that is.

That's one of the key problems with leftist arguments based around gender and sexual inclinations. Firstly, very little of it is based in science and biology and secondly this idea "everything is a social construct". If its a social construct, it absolutely can be changed with a flick of a switch.

Its an area of leftist politics and advocacy which absolutely looses me to be honest. I can't understand it. So much of it just flat out illogical dribble.

They should stick to democratic socialist ideals surrounding economics on which they are on far firmer ground.

-11 ( +1 / -12 )

For or against LGBT, it is his liberty to express his opinion under democracy.

Absolutely.

-7 ( +4 / -11 )

These statements and the many idiotic comments in this thread display what is really going on, hatred of people who are different from you. Like racism, no different.

I cannot agree more.

10 ( +10 / -0 )

"I get the T is perhaps more difficult to get your head around, but if we forget the stereotype silliness, feeling your entire life that something is wrong about the gender you have been assigned must be tough."

The T, IMO, in nothing but an illness or confusion, a life choice. Gay or Straight, can understand, but something in between, is just confusion

-11 ( +0 / -11 )

What is the point in reminding people that men and women create babies?

Is it necessary to remind people of this extremely obvious fact when talking about LGBT people?

7 ( +7 / -0 )

@NZ201

Your posts on this thread have most clearly, eloquently and honestly argued for common sense and logic in stating the obvious about how society should relate to the screaming reality of our fellow human beings who identify as LGBTQ and exposing the nonsense spouted by Hirasawa Katsuei whose character is evident from his physiognomy. It's discouraging, however, that some unfortunates don't seem to get the gist of your cogent arguments or even understand that by the same fatuous logic if everyone voted for LDP nuckledraggers, Japanese society would collapse (or start another war with its neigbors!?).

5 ( +6 / -1 )

@ Matt wasn't calling you old or silly, it was in reference to the original statement of the politician, don't know you, only commenting on your opinion here.

I think you will find the large majority of scientists and mental health professionals don't agree with your position.

The studies about children in same-sex parent homes are inconclusive, but don't appear to show any particular large negative outcome... perhaps the toughest thing is opinions like expressed by some on here effecting their household.

@Shawn, I understand your opinion but the facts aren't consistent with simple binary assignments, both mental and physically. In any case no one is asking you to do anything, (except using preferred pronouns) doesn't really effect you so don't really understand the problem.

@Bugle Boy, has anyone deleted your comment? Free Speech doesn't give you a pass on others commenting on your position... isn't that freedom of speech too or are only views that match yours ok?

9 ( +9 / -0 )

@JenniSchiebel

Homosexuality occurs in nature outside of the human species, it is "natural", it is nothing new.

10 ( +10 / -0 )

@Shawn, I understand your opinion but the facts aren't consistent with simple binary assignments, both mental and physically. In any case no one is asking you to do anything, (except using preferred pronouns) doesn't really effect you so don't really understand the problem.

typical feel good liberal answer, but its much more complicated than that. It tears away at the very fabric of society. Bascially, what culture you have was created by the founders of that country; you can only change or modify certian things but fundamentals with never change, thats why your gentleman Obama was voted out. Its the nature of society to self correct. A man in a dress with a beard is not only absurd, its dangerous because its sending out confusing messages that tear at the fabric ( in the US case, the foundation of JudeoChristian values) and there is nothing to replace that. If you dont like the system, move to another place, like Thailand for ex. that have a foundation that tolerates that kind of thing, but dont try to destroy your own country with such ridiculous concepts. Soon you will have school teachers in drag, bizzaro. even 15 years ago this was absurd.

-15 ( +0 / -15 )

It clearly never has, as far as we know. The politicians point was that if all of sudden, through some magical process everyone "became LGBT" that the population would significantly decline, which would lead to a form of societal collapse.

Why is this a point that needs making? If we all suddenly became rocks through some magical process the population would drop dramatically too.

This is just stupid.

12 ( +12 / -0 )

@Shawn by that rational slavery is ok... clearly it is not, society changes, rules change, populations change and our understanding increases.

Try to change any statement to one about racial equality or between the sexes and quickly it looks pretty outdated, and in time it will be the same for this issue, because it isn't one.

Im not from the US, the statement about the foundation of the US as I understand it isn't as simple as that, and its far from perfect else there wouldn't be amendments..

Obama wasn't voted out, he reached the end of his term.

8 ( +8 / -0 )

"Criticizing LGBT would create problems, but if everyone became like them then a nation would collapse."

The whole premise is just totally divorced from reality. Never mind how "un-PC" it is, anyone who indulges in delusional hypotheses like this should be forcibly retired from any legislative role. However I daresay the LDP won't dare consider taking any action for fear of offending all the equally dopey old folks they need to keep voting for them.

8 ( +9 / -1 )

I think you will find the large majority of scientists and mental health professionals don't agree with your position.

Just have to agree to disagree. Also probably depends on which scientists you speak too. Social scientists or biological scientists? Social scientists believe in social construction theory in large numbers so ill treat their views on this topic with a massive, MASSIVE grain of salt.

-11 ( +1 / -12 )

If we all suddenly became rocks through some magical process the population would drop dramatically too.

This is just stupid.

If all politicians became Hirasawa then Japan would ...... not be any better off anyway.....

3 ( +4 / -1 )

The media could narrate veteran lawmaker Katsuei Hirasawa protestation, assertions pronouncements as mere criticisms.

Katsuei Hirasawa and his ilk asseveration extend way beyond intolerance and prejudice.

At best, perceived as lite intemperance, allowing one to dismiss Katsuei Hirasawa as a no fool like a old fool.

At it most political poisonous toxicity, a means to justify a method to proportion blame for the ruling LDP government social policy failures on a minority group.

Be clear, Katsuei Hirasawa and others within his faction countenance, is the justification to expunge the entire LGBT out of society, the propaganda is unmistakably National Socialist in nature, commiserate to German 1930/40 ideology.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Well, he's right. Not just the nation but the entire human race would collapse if everyone was homosexual. But just because some people are, doesn't mean everyone would follow. Some find other races or colors attractive, some like slender or chubbier and some others prefer their same sex. Different people, different preferences. It's really not that difficult to understand.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

You do realize that many leftists think exactly that. That you can flick a switch.

Whoa there. I consider myself a leftist on most (but not all) issues, and I don't think sexuality is a social construct or that there's a Gay Switch. What's more, I tend to hang out with a lot of people of the leftist persuasion, and I'm pretty sure they don't believe there's a Gay Switch either. I've only known a couple of people who have "switched", so to speak, and I don't think it was a political decision.

I think you're letting this old geezer off the hook. I suggest that you could have written his speech for him, and done it better, based on your 11.16 am post. Something like:

Let's not discriminate or, in any other way, be nasty towards LGBT people, particularly anything that smacks of systematic abuse/discrimination, but lets, at the same time, recognize that its men and women getting together to have babies that keeps the population clock ticking. Certainly we can see what has happened over time as communities have stagnated and declined in population, particularly when they are isolated. You see (that) at the local level of villages and throughout history, entire civilizations. Fortunately for Japan, we don't need to be isolated, we need to be smart in terms of supporting the traditional family and smart in terms of immigration.

At least you'd have saved him from looking like a troglodyte. Cheers.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

An interesting article. This is what the far left are pushing for...

https://www.dailywire.com/news/39980/website-sells-phallic-prosthetics-prepubescent-frank-camp?

https://transkids.biz/

Apparently....

"We are currently on a break from selling our Gender Expression Gear."

Well that's a positive at least....

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

As Gore Vidal succinctly put it: “Actually, there is no such thing as a homosexual person, any more than there is such a thing as a heterosexual person. The words are adjectives describing sexual acts, not people. The sexual acts are entirely normal; if they were not, no one would perform them.”

There, fixed it! Simples, innit, Mr Hirasawa and your ilk who have lived so long detached from reality!

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Whoa there. I consider myself a leftist on most (but not all) issues, and I don't think sexuality is a social construct or that there's a Gay Switch. What's more, I tend to hang out with a lot of people of the leftist persuasion, and I'm pretty sure they don't believe there's a Gay Switch either. I've only known a couple of people who have "switched", so to speak, and I don't think it was a political decision.

Well its good that you and your friends hold a more rational view, but I have certainly heard it expressed that you can basically "pick and choose" and by far and away it is from those "on the left" for the sake of shorthand and being lazy. This whole area is a mind field and one normally I would stay clear of to be honest.

It does disturb me that young kids are being fed information which they don't even have the mental capacity to process. What adults do is their business, but I don't think society should be teaching young kids and children anything regarding gender or sex other than tolerance, and when they are old enough, traditional sex ed. There should be no agenda behind it that isn't based on the best science available.

I think you're letting this old geezer off the hook. I suggest that you could have written his speech for him, and done it better,

I would have to write it in Japanese though and that is beyond me ;)

-7 ( +0 / -7 )

"Try to change any statement to one about racial equality or between the sexes and quickly it looks pretty outdated, and in time it will be the same for this issue, because it isn't one."

another arguement that disconnected academics and liberals use; equating sexuality and racism.

Lets take a simple example, as most things in life are simple when you experience them. Racism in the USMC and other military branches was an accepted practice in the 1940s. Such an abhorrent practice would seem ridiculous today, as some of the best USMC drill instructors Ive seen were black; the race of the person is unrelated to performance. But lets use your paradigm; allow transgender people to join the USMC, and of course access to drill instructors billets. A male with breast there to greet other males? females? who arrive to basic training. who showers with who? what message does it send?. Its a ridiculous concept, and it grinds down the institution norms and values. Your disrespecting other races who fought for equality to equate the 2.

-7 ( +0 / -7 )

 his liberty to express his opinion under democracy

Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

Japan? A democracy? Isn't dear leader riddled with numerous scandals that have been conviniently swept under the rug? And that's just the top dog. Can you name any true democratic country that would allow such frivolity?

4 ( +4 / -0 )

The hypocrisy is others cannot express their feelings about LGBT but those for LGBT can insult those who are oppose to ... The LDP is never out touched with issues, LGBT is not helpful and those engaged such a lifestyle can be helped to come out of it. No one wants to talk about the offer to help but just accept it as human rights, very soon armed robbers and murderers will also ask for the right to rob and kill. It’s not gonna be a nice world.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

Also probably depends on which scientists you speak too. Social scientists or biological scientists?

Matt Hartwell - I think s lot of biological scientists would disagree with you.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Katsuei Hirasawa behaviour and rhetoric is a symptom of the political malaise the ruling LDP government has succumbed to.

A near total collapse of any semblance of a concrete political/economic cross sector policy agenda.

What smart programme agenda has emerged for 2019?,Nothing! Zero!

Tax followed by Spend spend spend, not a single comprehensive monetary or fiscal policy to reverse the budget deficit. A belligerent and hostile Trump administration, depopulation, a total lack of direction in reforming or restructuring the economy.

So Katsuei Hirasawa effective policy for depopulation has been reduced to the lowest common demonstrator, blame the queers, dykes, and cross-dressers, I apologise for the crude blunt formality. Let not flinch from the truth

4 ( +4 / -0 )

A male with breast there to greet other males? females? who arrive to basic training. who showers with who? what message does it send?

Itsounds like this us your killer argument because you can't think of anything else. The LGB is forgotten and you are focusing on the T because that is the bit that discombobulates people most.

Trans is still recognised as a mental disorder of sorts (this seems unsurprising - the brain is not happy in its physical body or the gender norms of society). This alone would probably be sufficient to keep any T out of the military. But have we ever seen any transvestite or transsexual drill sergeants?

I will ignore those who are biologically born as T - such as hermaphrodites and those women who should have been born as men and carry the Y chromosome. But I wonder how people convinced that everything is binary deal with such people. How could nature (or God) allow such non-binary people to be born?

4 ( +4 / -0 )

LGBT is not helpful 

Not helpful to whom? I know plenty who fall into that category who are helpful.

No one wants to talk about the offer to help but just accept it as human rights, very soon armed robbers and murderers will also ask for the right to rob and kill.

Help isn't required. Comparing being gay to being an armed robber is offensive, but more importantly, it is a false analogy and illogical.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

The LGBT community contribute fully through the tax revenue system.

Katsuei Hirasawa amongst others should, must, apologise and withdraw from political public life. Katsuei Hirasawa is incapable of representing his constituents equally.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

@Shawn, provided the military personal are capable of performing their tasks, does it matter if their downstairs matches the labels you like to use?

I'm not sure how I'm disconnected, I live in the world, I have and do work with people who are LGB.. (T not aware of any as yet to be transparent)

I think the example of racism is fairly accurate.. bible etc etc break down of society etc etc slippery slope etc etc dogs and cats etc etc marry a horse etc etc.. all the same stuff.

Academics.. yeah, terrible why would anyone want to try study and learn, with a goal of actually understanding things, best we just go on with our bias, preconceptions and being scared of the noise in the bushes..

5 ( +5 / -0 )

I'll side on the "People are reacting so hard to this statement because they know it is kind of true."

For all our beliefs on being "pro-diversity", there are days when we must admit, as a fact, that both sides are not equal and work from there, rather than denying this fact.

And one way to expose one side being superior over another is to conduct a thought experiment where we are all on one side or another, and think about which would cause us to be better off.

And in this case, this guy is basically correct. If we somehow got rid of every last homosexual, versus if we got rid of every last heterosexual. One idea is clearly more on the side of prolonging a nation's existence. Even if you say there's artificial technology these days, if one side has to use a crutch and the other doesn't, the latter is still objectively superior.

Compare that with say Whites versus Blacks. If we got rid of all the Whites, society would continue. Get rid of all the Blacks, society would continue. In this sense the two sides are kind of equal. Or how about males versus females. Get rid of either and we won't continue (at least not without a huge crutch).

You can see how the homos are a little disadvantaged in comparison with these two previous (and still ongoing to an extent, even in the relatively liberal West) struggles for equality.

-7 ( +0 / -7 )

@Kazuaki Shimazaki. The "homos".. come on.

Again and as stated earlier, given it will never happen what is the point of the original statement other than to further ostracize people, and perhaps take attention away from failings of this aging group of self interested politicians.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

@Chief Akwame

What insults? not sure what you mean, people have freely expressed their opinions here.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

LGBT couples have children and provide loving homes. How the children are initially conceived created doesn't really matter. Smart humans will find a way to "be productive."

Older people tend to be set in their belief systems. Some younger people are too. Representatives in govt usually have more sensitivity towards all their constituents, well, perhaps outside Japan they do.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

And in this case, this guy is basically correct. If we somehow got rid of every last homosexual, versus if we got rid of every last heterosexual. 

It is correct only if you ignore the logical fallacy that underpins it - the slippery slope argument.

Some people are born infertile. In fact, if we were all born infertile, then the population would die out. So what? The reality is that enough are born fertile do that the population does not die out. Same with gays.

In fact, it had been shown that sons with many older brothers are statistically more likely to be gay - this may be nature's way of limiting the population.

Actually, people who are left-handed are statistically more likely to be gay but we don't know why.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Ah_so: I think your underlying assumption is that gays do not have children. I think many gays repress it at all times or for some time and do have children. I recall in college my female friend had dated a guy for several years and they were going to get married until he suddenly announced to her that he was actually gay and then started living with another guy.

My guess is that being gay is a kind of altruistic tendency that supports and nurtures the larger gene pool, for example I understand that in the Roman army soldiers would have relationships with each other, and I imagine that this bond made them better and more reliable soldiers with respect to their unit.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Wallace Fred:

"Japan? A democracy? Isn't dear leader riddled with numerous scandals that have been conviniently swept under the rug? And that's just the top dog. Can you name any true democratic country that would allow such frivolity?"

Have you seen the US lately and its president?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

"I'm not sure how I'm disconnected, I live in the world, "

Nobody is saying gays or transgenders should be discriminated against or hate crimes committed without punishment. The point you are missing is that there are some occupations and institutions where transgenders cause disorder and chaos, therefore they should respect those institutions and not try to make them change for their own life choices. Yes, you are disconnected if you have never served in any of those institutions. Its like somebody giving me a lecture about Japan with a semester of Asian studies in college and a 6 mos homestay in Japan; they just dont know enough to make an informed opinion about Japan, they know just enough to be dangerous. You should let those who are connected and experienced make the choice on whether the transgenders can serve. Its very simple; if a person has a dream to be a Marine and a choice to be transgender, then they must scrap the later idea.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

I have not been to Shinjuku for many years now, but at one time the Shinjuku-san-chome area was quietly known as a place where people of LGBT orientation would go.

Nobody interfered with this and everybody got on with life.

It's always been around, and as far as I am aware, Shinjuku-san-chome has not collapsed.

Incidentally, there used to be some fantastic music bars in that area. People of every orientation used to crowd the area at weekends for good music, good entertainment. Sex was the last thing on most people's mind.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Hirasawa told a crowd in Yamanashi Prefecture in central Japan on Thursday: "Criticizing LGBT would create problems, but if everyone became like them then a nation would collapse."

He's trying to make a straw man argument - nobody believes any country would become where everyone is LGBT

5 ( +5 / -0 )

I think your underlying assumption is that gays do not have children

@Reckless - actually I orignally drafted the post noting that plenty of gay people do have children, but then deleted it so as not to confuse the main point I was going to make. It seems to be the underlying assumption of Hirasawa. I would assume that they have fewer children on average that straight people.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Whether you like his statement or not, what he said is actually true. If everyone became gay the entire nation would eventually collapse. In fact the entire world would eventually collapse under that scenario. The chances of everyone becoming gay is zero though, so the statement is moot.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

Odd how any topic related to LGBT really brings out the worst in some people. One wonders what these politicians and their like-minded supporters are so terrified of.

One wonders how they would feel being told that they are mentally ill, not fit for their jobs and should get out of their country...

No nation is going to collapse because of someone's gender or sexuality.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

I have a question for those of you who know: If I said that from today I was gay, will the LGBT community accept me as a gay person?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

I have a question for those of you who know: If I said that from today I was gay, will the LGBT community accept me as a gay person?

I can't speak for the entire LGBT community no more than you can speak for the entire hetero community, so it would depend on the type of person you present as.

For example, if you did it solely to get a rise out of people and a bit of attention, I imagine you wouldn't be taken seriously. Nor should you if you think you can suddenly "turn".

However, if you are genuinely LGBT and agree with Hirasawa - then that's your right. LGBT people are alligned to all kinds of beliefs and politics. Some that even go against them. Human nature is an odd but wonderful thing.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

if you did it solely to get a rise out of people and a bit of attention, I imagine you wouldn't be taken seriously. Nor should you if you think you can suddenly "turn".

However, if you are genuinely LGBT and agree with Hirasawa - then that's your right. LGBT people are alligned to all kinds of beliefs and politics. Some that even go against them. Human nature is an odd but wonderful thing.

So there are only two options? A) be a liar, or B) be the genuine thing. There's no C) change my mind about how I identify?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

So there are only two options? A) be a liar, or B) be the genuine thing. There's no C) change my mind about how I identify?

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here.

Sexuality and gender are grey areas, so sure, if you want to experiment, it may mean you are bisexual. It may just mean you're still heterosexual and are curious. With gender, some people are uncomfortable with the gender assigned to them at birth and they eventually become who they were meant to be.

But you can no more choose your orientation than the color of your skin. You are who you are. You may have to fight prejudice and peers to find that out.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Politicians who want to say things like this need to claim that there statements are based on their religious beliefs. Then they could say anything they want with impunity.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Hirasawa needs to watch NHK more. Just recently I watched an NHK program that featured a Japanese lesbian couple raising two children. Each of the women had given birth to one of the children using sperm donated by a friend.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Again and as stated earlier, given it will never happen what is the point of the original statement other than to further ostracize people, and perhaps take attention away from failings of this aging group of self interested politicians.

True, but the moment you say that, you concede the point that at 100% concentration it could be rather fatal. The problem then shifts to whether it is something that at low concentrations the harm graph could invert and be beneficial. There are indeed things that are beneficial at low to moderate concentrations, such as oxygen, but whether that applies to LGTs is another matter.

(I deliberately exclude the B here, because you can say that a person who ultimately rolls with the opposite sex as heterosexual, while the ones who roll with the same sex are LG).

If we are unable to find real advantages to a low concentration of LGTs, then we will find it hard to avoid a conclusion that LGT at any concentration is harmful. And if we agree it is harmful, at least slightly so, then the question becomes whether it should be encouraged rather than at least being subtly discouraged.

After all, we are not talking about horrible persecution here AFAIK - the issue at hand is whether to allow same-sex marriage, and even to the point of agreeing it is marriage.

Because while current medical research holds that sexuality is mainly genetic, there are undeniably at least some fence sitters out there, as the B indicates. If we are forced to concede that LGTs are at least slightly harmful, even at low concentrations, then the question becomes: Why encourage them?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

After all, we are not talking about horrible persecution here AFAIK - the issue at hand is whether to allow same-sex marriage, and even to the point of agreeing it is marriage.

Not allowing people who love each other to get married is persecution.

Because while current medical research holds that sexuality is mainly genetic, there are undeniably at least some fence sitters out there, as the B indicates.

Being bisexual indicates that you like both male and female and you can't be as easily put in a handy box with a label on it. Even though "bisexual" is a label in itself.

If we are forced to concede that LGTs are at least slightly harmful, even at low concentrations, then the question becomes: Why encourage them?

Encourage them to do what? Exist without prejudice? I don't see hetero people being told they are mentally ill or un-natural because of who they marry.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Issues about LGBT as a privilege and right to be who they are or want to be is not the issue.

The issues are:

1) Future of Japanese without reproduction... population growth of Japanese without immigration.

2) Definition of "marriage" in the eyes of the "law" and the public.

and 3) The Freedom of expression and giving an opinion. I still cannot understand why anyone, politician or not, cannot express and opinion in public. We get bombarded with "opinions" from all public figures such as professors, researchers, commentators, and professionals from all areas, all professing to be correct and right, many with controversial ideas and comments.

4) The media and the self-righteous people in the community "judges" and "criticizes" based upon their own differing values and standards saying that it is a social standard for the nation.

While such "supposed to be" and "should be" are useful opinions in standardizing social culture, it can be extremely harmful in creating a meaningful "dialog." And "dialog" is essential in improvement and growth in any society.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Issues about LGBT as a privilege and right to be who they are or want to be is not the issue.

I think it is, given the regular denigration of LGBT people both here and elsewhere. If you have the right to express your views, so do I.

I still cannot understand why anyone, politician or not, cannot express and opinion in public.

But they can and they do. Who here is censoring Hirasawa? People are responding to his antiquated views.

And "dialog" is essential in improvement and growth in any society.

Absolutely agree with that. Which is precisely why his particular monologue is being countered with dialogue.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

All this fuss over nothing. His comment was a bit dramatic and unnecessary, but he's not wrong. If you had a country populated with nothing but gay people, it wouldn't last that long, biologically speaking. People are acting like he said they should all be kicked out of Japan for not reproducing...

1 ( +2 / -1 )

'Under fire' from whom? I don't think the average Japanese is upset about these comments in the least.

As usual the liberal leaning media citing a few outlying tweets to give the impression of widespread outrage by the masses.

As far as the comment itself, it is essentially true that a nation would collapse if somehow everyone were to become LGBT. That's just common sense.

Japan is already 'collapsing' with a seriously low birth rate. The law maker is simply saying that the government should invest limited resources into encouraging childbearing heterosexual marriage rather than LGBT sexual unions. This is also common sense.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

What do you mean by LGBT sexual unions, though? Does this mean not only do you see equality in marriage as unworthy but sex as well?

This muddled and prejudiced way of thinking disguised as "common sense", is precisely why Hirasawa and his supporters must be challenged on their bias and offensive commentary.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

To be fair, a nation would also collapse if somehow everyone chose to become any one thing or profession. Society needs a diversity of people and professions to prosper.

I believe that the lawmaker expressed his point poorly. Nevertheless the point is valid. That is that in the very vast majority of cases heterosexual marriage produces children and is the ideal situation for children to thrive with both male and female role model parents. Therefore, for the sake of a prosperous society it is in the government's interest to allocate limited resources to promote and support such unions. Common sense which has prevailed throughout millenniums of human history and thankfully still does in most of the world today.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

That is that in the very vast majority of cases heterosexual marriage produces children and is the ideal situation for children to thrive with both male and female role model parents. Therefore, for the sake of a prosperous society it is in the government's interest to allocate limited resources to promote and support such unions.

I agree with this comment to some degree, except for the word 'limited' here:

it is in the government's interest to allocate limited resources to promote and support such unions.

It is in the government's interest to allocated resource to promote and support any unions which are beneficial to the children in them. If two people of the same sex have a child, they should receive the same support as those of opposite sexes. It's not like the children suddenly needs less support because their parents share a common genitalia. And it's not like not allocating these resources to couples who share a common genitalia is going to somehow encourage them to suddenly start falling in love with people who have the other genitalia.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@ Strangerland

I agree with you that governments should support all parents of children regardless of marital status. This would of course include LGBTQ and single parents.

I would like to say though that the ideal situation for a child is where both biological parents are present, father and mother. Study after study makes this clear. Such children generally have far better outcomes economically, psychologically and educationally and are far less prone to commit crimes. Thus governments, as representatives of society, should promote and support stable heterosexual marriages as the gold standard for child bearing and raising. To reflect this official recognition of marriage should be limited to heterosexual partnerships. Financial support though, as I said, should include all children regardless of their parent's marital status.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Regarding legal marriage, a line must be drawn somewhere.

If we agree to grant LGBTQ people marriage licenses on the basis of equality and non discrimination then who says we should limit this right to two people? There are Muslims, Mormons and other people who wish to have their polygamous relationships legally recognized. Would we be discriminating against them if we disagree? Are we bigots if we disagree?

We can treat our LGBTQ fellow citizens as well as polygamous Muslims, Mormons and others with the utmost respect and dignity, but it doesn't mean we must grant marriage licenses to every grouping that demands one.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Polygamy is an entire different issue, often used by those who oppose same-sex unions, in order to deflect.

it doesn't mean we must grant marriage licenses to every grouping that demands one.

Would you be happier if your right to marry (as a heterosexual) was revoked?

Nobody is suddenly going to go gay or be forced into a gay marriage or see the population plummet if marriage equality is embraced. Nobody.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@Toasted Heretic

Polygamy is an entire different issue

Why? On what basis?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Good point, Concerned Citizen!

But in today's more "accepting" society, maybe the Mormons will start practicing polygamy again! It is, as you say, no different to accept those relationships than it is to accept LGBTQ relationships - as far as they are considered to be non-traditional, but probably no more than that.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Why? On what basis?

On the basis of their being different issues. They are not the same.

If you are going to deny rights to people, each issue needs to be evaluated on its own merits. The existence of other issues is not a reason to deny a right. As adults we should be able to have nuanced opinions on things.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@Strangerland, thanks, you got there before me!

The thread is concerned with ignorant politicians and their lack of regard for LGBT people. The rights of polygamists are not yet entwined with Hirasawa's outlook.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

"Itsounds like this us your killer argument because you can't think of anything else"

A bit of a bizarre counter point. Actually, I experienced it, and thus have made a connection, anb by extension, am able to discuss with authority on the subject. What are you to do with trans people, who live in barracks? Do they live with the females or males, or require their own special room?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

@Strangerland

On the basis of their being different issues. They are not the same.

This may be your opinion and I and others may share it with you but polygamists will and are using the same arguments that gay couples use.

a. Love is love

b. We want equality

c. Polygamous rights are human rights

d. We bear and raise children as well as heteros and gays

e. We are in committed relationships

f. Those who oppose our right to marry are bigots and haters

g. etc

We will not be able to deny them marriage recognition. So where will it end? Throuples? Quadrouples? ad infinitum.....

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Excellent point concerned citizen.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

This may be your opinion and I and others may share it with you but polygamists will and are using the same arguments that gay couples use.

Good for them. When we're dealing with polygamy, we can talk about polygamy. I'm sure you're intelligent enough to evaluate both topics on their own validity, so let's talk about that one when that topic comes up, and talk about this one since we're talking about this one.

We will not be able to deny them marriage recognition. So where will it end? Throuples? Quadrouples? ad infinitum.....

It will end when at the point where we evaluate a topic, and find that it shouldn't be done. And get this, it may even start again after that with a different topic!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I'm sure you're intelligent enough to evaluate both topics on their own validity

I'm sure he is. And I am as well. LGBT marriages should not be recognized. Marriage is a union between a man and a woman. That usually doesn't apply for LGBT couples.

Civil unions are cool, tho. (thumbs up)

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@Strangerland

This topic is already up. And I'm afraid these topics are very much intertwined. If we grant marriage licenses to one group on the basis of the arguments I listed below then we will have no basis to deny the next groups that come along. Therefore the line must remain at traditional hetero marriage.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

LGBT marriages should not be recognized. Marriage is a union between a man and a woman.

Marriage is the union of two people who love each other. It's going to happen in Japan, eventually & there's nothing you can do about that.

Don't forget people who love their pet! (not trying to be funny)

Not much chance of that happening. But equating LGBT folk with animals is pretty low.

Therefore the line must remain at traditional hetero marriage.

Not a chance. You cannot deny people the right to get married. And what is tradition, exactly?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@Toasted Heretic

Marriage is the union of two people who love each other.

Who said the limit is two?

Do you realise that polygamists can accuse you of hatred, 'polygamistphobia', denying thier human right to marry, etc.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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