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Moscow says Japan must recognize all Kurils as Russian

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By Maria Antonova

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Well if they say so I guess we have to

2 ( +9 / -7 )

Japan lost them in the war. Let it go.

1 ( +30 / -29 )

"Now of course we have to take into account that the situation with regards to Japan's military alliances has drastically changed," Lavrov said. U.S. efforts to "militarize" the Asia Pacific region created additional risks for Russia, he added."

Usual Russian BS. The US has been militarily present in Japan continuously since 1945. As for "militarizing" what is Russia doing on these four islands?

8 ( +25 / -17 )

Japan lost them in the war. Let it go.

So I guess that means you'd be ok with Okinawa becoming the 51st US state then, right?

-4 ( +22 / -26 )

'Moscow is willing to work toward a peace resolution' as long as you agree to everything Russia wants. Business as usual for Russia.

18 ( +29 / -11 )

It is very challenging task for Kono. In the past, between Japan and China, it happened that recognize territory belong to the other side first and then the other side gave them back. But anything could happen so don't follow history example without.... Anyway, with or without peace treaty, there is peace and there will be.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

Usual Russian BS. The US has been militarily present in Japan continuously since 1945.

Never mind that Obama pivot thing.

As for "militarizing" what is Russia doing on these four islands?

Protecting their territory.

So I guess that means you'd be ok with Okinawa becoming the 51st US state then, right

False equivalency. The US voluntarily returned Okinawa in 1972.

'Moscow is willing to work toward a peace resolution' as long as you agree to everything Russia wants. Business as usual for Russia.

Business as usual for any country in a position of power over another.

-5 ( +17 / -22 )

Lolololololololololololololololololololololololololololololol

Seeing as it's one failure after another for dear leader, what exactly will it take for people to wake up to him?

-1 ( +13 / -14 )

Moscow is willing to work toward a peace resolution' as long as you agree to everything Russia wants. Business as usual for Russia.

Yes. Russia becoming beligerent like China.

Seeing as it's one failure after another for dear leader, what exactly will it take for people to wake up to him?

exactly. This declaration is nothing more than a spit and a slap in the face of Abe. No less.

9 ( +16 / -7 )

And the games continue.

8 ( +8 / -0 )

There are about 19,000 people on these islands nowadays. No way Russia give them up.

12 ( +15 / -3 )

Americans like to play the part of the police of the world,Russia only reacted to all their missile installment nearby Russian territory.

Japan should put this dispute aside and move on.

-5 ( +13 / -18 )

False equivalency. The US voluntarily returned Okinawa in 1972.

But apparently we didn't have to according to gogogo. We could have annexed it and Japan would not have been allowed to complain because they 'lost in in the war'.

13 ( +16 / -3 )

BintaroToday  08:07 am JST

There are about 19,000 people on these islands nowadays. No way Russia give them up.

Yes, Russia expelled 17,000 Japanese civilians who had been living there, islands that have been Japanese since 1855 by The Treaty of Commerce, Navigation and Delimitation agreed with Russia.

Russia shipped people in like Japan did with Manchuria in the 1930s, and China with Tibet more recently.

19 ( +24 / -5 )

@OssanJapan

Yes, Russia expelled 17,000 Japanese civilians who had been living there

Japan will have to grant special "unrevocable" residency to Russians living on the Kurils, like the one that Zainichis have if it were to "buy" two islands.

-8 ( +3 / -11 )

A compromise should be reached, but the Russians are unreliable, untrustworthy negotiators who have only made empty promises and flip flopped on the issue. A peace treaty is not coming in the foreseeable future.

12 ( +19 / -7 )

irrevocable

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

But apparently we didn't have to according to gogogo. We could have annexed it and Japan would not have been allowed to complain because they 'lost in in the war'.

Correct.

3 ( +8 / -5 )

For all those that haven't seen these islands on a map, I'd encourage you to do so - they are right off Japan's coast - you can see two from Hokkaido.  They are nowhere near Russia.

The are under Russia administration today only because Harry Truman told Stalin near the end of WW II  "don't send Soviet troops into Hokkaido to partition Japan like you did in Korea - or we'll send a few B-29s up your way"..

This is Putin being his usual self - fostering division and confusion where he can.  His goal is to drive a wedge between Japan and the US, so expect to hear more of "we could possibly be open to discussion but the US-Japan Security Treaty is a great concern and threat to us". 

BS...

13 ( +22 / -9 )

Should've taken the two islands when they were given the opportunity, now it's too late. This is what happens when you get too greedy. When you are in a situation like this, always remember that 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing.

12 ( +19 / -7 )

"Sovereignty over the islands is not up for discussion, this is Russian territory," Lavrov said in a briefing following talks with Japanese Foreign Minister Taro Kono.

Well...that pretty much sums up Russia,s position lound and clear. Whats Shinzo to  do now....instead of campaigning in the summer election as being the one who "resolved" the Kurils issue now he might have to do his own pivot and paint Russia as the "threat " that only LDP can protect the sheeple from. Well, guess the " big bad gaikoku threat "worked well for Jiminto in the past elections so.....

As for "militarizing" what is Russia doing on these four islands?

Well, since they are Russian territory they can do what they want with them. Japan shouldn,t have joined the Nazis and lost the second WW2. As simple as that. Don,t see the German govt. continuously whining about lost territory for their political purposes.

-1 ( +14 / -15 )

The islands belong to Russia and they will never cede them back to Japan. These negotiations are only giving false hope to those who haven't moved on. Sorry to say but to anyone who believes otherwise is just foolish.

Remember, don't give any precedent to China for any disputed islands to include the Ryukyus. Once America withdraws its military from Asia due to economic costs the door will open for China to claim all historical islands.

-1 ( +11 / -12 )

Never. These 4 islands are 100 percent Japanese and a always will be. What happened to "2 plus 2 plan"? If Putin truly wants a Peace deal with Japan, big Japanese joint development, infrastructure, huge tourist boom etc on the Islands, accept that the Islands MUST be returned to the rightful owner. Japan.

The rest of the world does not believe they are Russian Islands.

-4 ( +19 / -23 )

Just another Stalinist dictatorship trying to bully the neighbors.

5 ( +14 / -9 )

As I’ve said before, Russia will NEVER let go of its islands. What is Putin coming to Japan for? This NE Asia seems to be heating up..fast.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

Never. These 4 islands are 100 percent Japanese and a always will be. What happened to "2 plus 2 plan"? If Putin truly wants a Peace deal with Japan, big Japanese joint development, infrastructure, huge tourist boom etc on the Islands, accept that the Islands MUST be returned to the rightful owner. Japan.

The rest of the world does not believe they are Russian Islands."

Must be living in a different world.

-4 ( +13 / -17 )

The evil Soviet empire did many evils. They should return what they have stolen, Japan deserves the Kurils and Sakhalin, Germany should have Prussia and Pommern returned, the Finns should have Karelia. Deportations, oppression of their own people and the people they ruled over, they did many wrong things. They should return what they took.

8 ( +17 / -9 )

"But apparently we didn't have to according to gogogo. We could have annexed it and Japan would not have been allowed to complain because they 'lost in in the war'.

Correct"

INCORRECT!

By 1945 annexations were legally a thing of the past; moreover, that was not mandated in the Cairo and subsequently at the Potsdam Declaration(s):

"The Three Great Allies are fighting this war to restrain and punish the aggression of Japan. They covet no gain for themselves and have no thought of territorial expansion".

1943 Cairo Declaration

No gain for themselves, no territorial expansion, therefore no annexations of Japan's territory were envisaged as consequences of the war.

By your reasoning Russia could have annexed East Germany and the Allied Powers done the same with the West.

Not even Germany thought about annexing France after the blitz in 1940!

The Soviets annexed the islands in contravention of International Law, just like they did in Crimea.

8 ( +16 / -8 )

It seems almost impossible to return islands to Japan as long as they are building up military bases there.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

Unwanted occupation to the north of the country and, of course, the south.

Two despotic nations carving up pieces of Japan, slowly but with strength.

8 ( +11 / -3 )

@peeping_tom

Talk about missing my point...

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Very difficult situation as the islands have been going back and forward in the past with last known fact (ST Petersburg treaty) that Japan gave Sakhalin to Russia in return for Japans safety and still being able to fish those waters. But there is no mention of the two islands other than an image on wikipedia that shows they belong to Russia since 1945. One of the two's population is 60% Ukrainian, which brings up many other questions as Russia is at "war" with Ukraine? I'd say give them up Japan but im sure they hold some sort of value (minerals, fishing etc?)

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

What now, Abe!? How are you suppose to explain your crushing defeat to the eagerly awaiting, Japanese people? For so long you have boasted about your personal friendship and close tie with Putin, that proved irrelevant today.

Abe has to be the most naive prime minister of Japan I've ever witnessed.

-6 ( +5 / -11 )

Serious question. Why are these islands such a sticking point? They seem so far north as to not be useful for much. Their closeness to Hokkaido might be a problem. Is it just two countries trying to get the upper hand or are they valuable?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I find it puzzling how so many of these different territorial disputes are seen and understood differently.  Japan loses these in WW2 and it essentially asked to resign itself to the fact that they are gone.  But Gibraltar (British since 1713) remains a bone of contention with many saying it is rightfully Spanish.  Falklands the same.  Kashmir anyone?  Recent events in Crimea?  Ukraine?

10 ( +10 / -0 )

Japan lost them in the war. Let it go.

Ha! Tell that to the many upon many countries that lost territory and livelihood to Russia during the war yet gained them back.

11 ( +12 / -1 )

Gambare Japan wrote:

“The rest of the world does not believe they are Russian Islands.”

Well,from where I come from which is a westerner country we learn that they are Russians.” nowadays.

Maybe it’s time to update your world map.

-8 ( +6 / -14 )

I'm curious. What do the people who live there want the islands to be, Russian or Japanese? Anyone know?

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Posted in: Putin tries dog diplomacy before Japan talks over islands  See in context

Putin will never give up Russian soil in the same way the Japanese never would. Putin is as nationalistic as Abe is and so I cannot for the life of me understand why Abe is even attempting negotiating. All Putin is going to do is milk the Japenese for any economic advantage he can get for as long as he can get it. The only way to play this is too offer incredible economic benefits to the Russians but do not deliver a single thing until they have an irreversible agreement to the land transfer...never gonna happen!

Exactly what I said would happen 2 years ago when all this started up again. Unfortunately Japan is flogging a dead horse over these islands.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

That's negotiating Russian style, "My way or the highway!" - I recall Abe stating one of his goals this year was to find a resolution to this issue. Unfortunately, Abe has the same resolve over these islets and is not prepared to give them up. I see no resolution to this 'stalemate' as neither side is prepared to compromise.

@Ganbare Japan! - The rest of the world does not believe they are Russian Islands.

You might be very surprised to learn that, most of the rest of the world doesn't give a fat wombat's ball bag about this dispute. And, the few who do, believe that these islands belong to Russia as 'spoils of war'. Japan was not the victim in WW2. Japan was the aggressor and lost, for which they paid a very severe price, which included losing some of their land. As far as most people in west are concerned, Japan lost these islands in the war. That's all there is to it.

-3 ( +9 / -12 )

As predicted. No one has to like it, but no Russian leader will ever cede territory they control, certainly not voluntarily. Especially not Putin.

We can argue all day long as to who deserves to own the islands, but that doesn't change the fact that Russia is making clear their position. And since they control the islands, Japan really has very little leverage.

Again, this is just realpolitik.

So, Japan has to decide what they want to do. And given that Japan is not going to go to war to take the islands back, they have few options.

My suggestion would be that Japan state once again their claim to the islands, that they will never renounce the claim and that no peace treaty will be signed with Russia until Russia recognizes Japan's claim to the islands.

Doesn't solve the problem, but, again, it is reality.

11 ( +12 / -1 )

Japan should never give up the island to Russia, rather Russia should withdraw in accordance with regional peace, and or Japan should just move in their forces with the US alliance / umbrella. Put the money to use for once and test the alliance to see what we are paying for.

1 ( +8 / -7 )

Not if but when Carbon society era end and Hydrogen society starts, Russia will have no choice but to move out of Far East Siberia all together since it would be economically difficult to support them without economic assistance from Japan and China.

I predict in another 15 years we will be see the starting with another 20 years to go into full swing.

3 ( +8 / -5 )

Abe is a light weight. Russia will surpass Japan economically in about 10 years. Opportunity missed is opportunity lost. There will be 7 countries from Asia in the top 10 economies by 2030. The only west is Germany, the last one.

-14 ( +0 / -14 )

The evil Soviet empire did many evils. They should return what they have stolen, Japan deserves the Kurils and Sakhalin, Germany should have Prussia and Pommern returned, the Finns should have Karelia. Deportations, oppression of their own people and the people they ruled over, they did many wrong things. They should return what they took.

Japan, Germany and Finland fought the USSR and lost the territory...thats all there is to it.

 To the winners go the spoils ....thats reality however much the nationalists despise it.

On the subject of evil perpetrated during WW2 you are not seriously going to portray Japan and Germany as victims here are you?

0 ( +9 / -9 )

For all those that haven't seen these islands on a map, I'd encourage you to do so - they are right off Japan's coast - you can see two from Hokkaido. They are nowhere near Russia.

I can see France from Dover, that doesn't mean France should be part of the UK. The islands you can see from Hokkaido are part of Russia. They used to be part of Japan and before that they belonged to the Ainu.

Instead of endless whining, the Japanese should accept that they lost the war and a consequence of that is that they lost those islands. They should think themselves lucky they did not lose Hokkaido as well.

1 ( +10 / -9 )

Don't let Russia squeeze out of Japan any further. Let Russia pays for the price for pressing Japan to give 4 islands up. Peace Treaty is not needed at all.

How about replacing it with Non-aggression treaty once again, though Russia may scrap it once again.

That should be enough with the country

8 ( +10 / -2 )

William77Today  10:41 am JST

Gambare Japan wrote:

“The rest of the world does not believe they are Russian Islands.”

Well,from where I come from which is a westerner country we learn that they are Russians.” nowadays.

Maybe it’s time to update your world map.

Well I come from a western country too and my county recognizes the Southern Kuriles to be Japanese territory under Russian administration, a euphemism for occupation. Likewise the U.K. and the European Parliament recognize them as Japanese territory. What "western" nation are you from that teaches that they are Russian territory?

8 ( +14 / -6 )

It is Russian territory taken over with Japan’s defeat in WW2. Japan should accept it and give up.

-7 ( +6 / -13 )

Well it looks like the PREMIUM islands, of Kunashir, Iturup, Shikotan and Habomai. Are going the same way as returning abductees, empowering women, creating a society where all can shine, opening more Childcare centres, wage rises, and more. But at least we have a vetenary centre that's not needed. Pullout of many international agreements, a tax hike and of course a most welcome PREMIUM Friday. Is it any wonder The Shinz spends at least one week a month in another country?, is it any wonder.

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

Possession is nine-tenths of the law so I guess they are Russian islands now. However.....Russia cannot manage or run anything very well so the next time Russia comes asking Japan for help with something relating to the islands and offers "future talks" in return for financial assistance, a one-finger answer would be appropriate. Being from Hokkaido and having family in Nemuro I have had the opportunity to visit these islands a few times and the difference between Nemuro (first world country) and what Russia has done to the islands (now second/third world country) is tellings. Russia says the islands are theirs, fine, YOU (Russia) take care of them and good luck with that because you haven't been able to do so up to this point.

14 ( +15 / -1 )

Russian might and Japan’s failing in the last world war make the Kurils Russian....

-7 ( +2 / -9 )

War? The Russo-Japanese War 1904? In WW2, Soviet stabbed in the back, raped and killed harf-dead person almost waiving a white flag to the west. Everything the harf-dead desperately did was pure self-defense.

Aggressor? Which ons? Every single western powers of those days?

0 ( +7 / -7 )

Congrats all Abe haters haunting in this forum! If Abe-admin screws up against Russia, South Korea, North Korea over current issues, he would be forced to step down finally. I think.

Again no peace treaties needed with those thug countries

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

@Strangerland. I agree with you that it's not and shouldn't be but, unfortunately, it does seem to be in this case and others.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

OssanAmericaToday  12:24 pm JST

William77Today  10:41 am JST

Gambare Japan wrote:

“The rest of the world does not believe they are Russian Islands.”

Well,from where I come from which is a westerner country we learn that they are Russians.” nowadays.

Maybe it’s time to update your world map.

Well I come from a western country too and my county recognizes the Southern Kuriles to be Japanese territory under Russian administration, a euphemism for occupation. Likewise the U.K. and the European Parliament recognize them as Japanese territory. What "western" nation are you from that teaches that they are Russian territory?

The leaders of the three great powers – the Soviet Union, the United States of America and Great Britain – have agreed that in two or three months after Germany has surrendered and the war in Europe is terminated, the Soviet Union shall enter into war against Japan on the side of the Allies on condition that: ... 2. The former rights of Russia violated by the treacherous attack of Japan in 1904 shall be restored, viz.: (a) The southern part of Sakhalin as well as the islands adjacent to it shall be returned to the Soviet Union; ... 3. The Kurile Islands shall be handed over to the Soviet Union.

The Potsdam Declaration states the following regarding the Japanese territories: "8. The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshū, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine".[13] The islands comprising the Northern Territories are not explicitly included in this list, but the US subsequently maintained, particularly during the preparation of the Treaty of San Francisco, that the phrase "and such minor islands as we determine" could be used to justify transferring the Northern Territories to Japan.

The Cairo Declaration of 1943 did not explicitly mention the Kuril Islands but stated: "Japan will also be expelled from all other territories which she has taken by violence and greed".

These are facts,so there is no white or black point in this dispute as you want to claim for everyone,furthermore in the world maps they are stated as Russians/

http://www.vidiani.com/maps/maps_of_the_world/large_detailed_political_map_of_the_world.jpg

SO do me the favour to don't impose your thinking to the others.

-5 ( +5 / -10 )

Where are all the folks that like to complain about legality issues regarding land acquired during and following WWII?

Damn hypocrites I say, make unfounded accusations against one country, but stay silent regarding Russia.

9 ( +10 / -1 )

@Strangerland. "Possession is nine-tenths of the law" is an English proverb that is often used to explain why a current situation is technically legal even though it is unfair. Cases include why people are arrested for having stolen property, child abduction cases when one spouse flees to another state or country and etc. So, yes, "possession..." is not technically a law (and most reasonable people know this) but it has been evoked to explain why the UN doesn't badger Russia to give the islands back as keeping the current system is preferable to further armed conflict over the Kuril Island.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

Japan and the Soviet Union signed the 1956 document, which stipulated that the USSR was willing to cede Shikotan and Habomai following a signed peace agreement, but Japan demanded all four islands

So, Japan signed the 1956 document but now insists that it wants all 4 islands? Oh well, seems like agreements are not worth the paper they are written on anymore.

-7 ( +1 / -8 )

Japan's regime aka the LDP honor no piece of paper, denying historical context and whine when other countries do the same. When the boot is on the other foot nobody understands the complex, unique Japanese culture. The plug has been pulled and Japan's regime is clinging to the past mistakes, doubling down like a hair ball in the showers drain.

-5 ( +4 / -9 )

The Cairo Declaration of 1943 did not explicitly mention the Kuril Islands but stated: "Japan will also be expelled from all other territories which she has taken by violence and greed".

The four islands were not taken by violence and greed, the Treaty of Shimoda signed in 1855 between Japan and Russia stipulated the national border line between Japan and Russia in which the the official border between Japan and Russia was set as in between Etorofu and Urup, with the status of Sakhalin left undetermined.

That is why the four island are Japan sovereign territories and why Russia is occupying them illegally.

7 ( +11 / -4 )

Maybe the government should offer them the same deal they gave the U.S. for Okinawa—pay a huge sum of money up front, let them keep all their military bases, pay for the upkeep and development of the bases and then give them a further $4,411,340,000 annually as omoiyari yosan to pay for the troops stationed there.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Japan must recognize that Putin is a criminal who killed, is killing and will kill lots of progressive people in Russia and all over the world!!! He must be jailed for life and must be totally ignored and not invited in Japan. It's totally disgusting to see naive fools like Abe and Trump meeting and talking with him. Putin will not return the islands, he needs japanese technology and japanese money. Also Putin needs to show to the world that heads of some countries like Abe and Trump socialize with him. Abe and Trump should have at least some dignity, pride and self respect.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

The Internet Research Agency is strong on this article....

Let's remember Russia, or the soon to be Soviet Union, annexed these islands while they were also planning to annex half of Europe.  They were going to annex Hokkaido and install a Pro-Soviet government, like Korea, until Truman told Joe Stalin "no way".

In the early 90's Russia gave up its territorial conquests - but the Russia today under Putin is much more dangerous, as we've seen in Georgia, Crimea and even Syria.

Putin won't give up these isles until he can leverage them for something else he wants - likely a reduced US presence in Japan and Asia so he can continue his mischief unencumbered.

9 ( +11 / -2 )

Possession is 9 points of the law...and these islands, which were originally populated by Ainu, have been in play since the Meiji era. The treaty of SF gave 2 of the 4 to Japan, which insisted on all 4 and ended up with nothing. And when's the last time you remember Russia willingly giving up real estate... Crimea? Look how that turned out.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Russia is playing hardball so Japan should too with regards to a peace treaty between the two countries. In oher words, "no island return, no peace treaty." Japan's resolve to stand up to Russia and call their bluff will depend on U.S. willingness to back up Japan.

If U.S. is noncommital or fails to support Japan, what is Japan to do.

PM Abe is peobably hedging his bets that U.S. will not be willing to strongly force Russia to back down so he is taking responsible by building up Japanese navy to counter Russian navy or Chinese navy.

If Japan caves in and accept the islands as Russian territory and further agrees to a peace treaty without Russia returning the islands, this sends the wrong message and dangerous prescedent to China that Japan may be willing to abandon the Senkaku Islands and allow China to further dominate the entire China Seas region.

Then what if China, encouraged by victory claims over Senkaku, decides to renew claims on Ryukyu Islands and Okinawa? Shall Japan capitulate and accept China annexation?

6 ( +10 / -4 )

I like to think of it like this;

If Japan would of won the battle of Midway, and later forced a treaty on the USA where Guam, Hawaii, Alaska and other US territories would become Japanese, do you think that Japan would ever cede those territories back to the US, in say 70 years? Of course not.

-8 ( +1 / -9 )

If Japan would of won the battle of Midway, and later forced a treaty on the USA where Guam, Hawaii, Alaska and other US territories would become Japanese, do you think that Japan would ever cede those territories back to the US, in say 70 years? Of course not.

Man in the High Castle?

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Moscow is absolutely, 100 percent correct in demanding that Japan recognize Итуру́п, Кунаши́р, Шикотан and Хабомаи as Russian territory. Japan is clearly wrong here and embarrassing itself with this ongoing, ridiculous claim that these islands belong it.

-13 ( +2 / -15 )

Never. These 4 islands are 100 percent Japanese and a always will be. 

Nice try but even relatively recent Japanese maps of Japan do not even show Hokkaido as part of its territory, let alone the kurile islands.

By your logic Mexico can claim Texas and California back. Actually, Mexico has an even stronger historical claim to these states than Japan does to these islands.

-6 ( +5 / -11 )

Nice try but even relatively recent Japanese maps of Japan do not even show Hokkaido as part of its territory, let alone the kurile islands.

Never seen a map published in Japan that DOES NOT Show Hokkaido as part of Japanese sovereign territory. In fact I have NOT seen any map published in Japan that does not include the four norther islands as Japan territory either.

9 ( +11 / -2 )

I dont know why Abe so worried to recover Northern territories. Chinese Communists are buying a lot of land in Hokkaido, if Putin returns the northern territories under Japanese administration it will be no different.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

Never seen a map published in Japan that DOES NOT Show Hokkaido as part of Japanese sovereign territory.

I've never seen the dark sideoif the moon but I believe it exists.

Anyway, knock yourself out with these maps. The latest is 1871, a fraction of the time that Japan has existed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Han

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

Chinese Communists are buying a lot of land in Hokkaido

How much of Hokkaido do Chinese communists own? Given that China is largely capitalist these days, I'd be surprised that there were any communists left, especially any with money to buy overseas territory.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

The latest is 1871, a fraction of the time that Japan has existed.

How do you connect 1871 and relatively recent?

It's more than 100 years.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

It is of waste of time Russian just using the world war two agreement to hold on o ransom on the island as an excuse not to give .Even based on historical facts Russian invade the island originally belong to Japan .If Russian is sincere about making a good relation they should agree for gradually return those island in the immediate future .Instead of no way. Forget about it .Don't waste your time.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

If Russian is sincere about making a good relation they should agree for gradually return those island in the immediate future

Lolololololololololololololololololololololololololololololol

Ask yourself this, if the roles were reversed, would the same request make sense? The ship sailed. This is abe failing to hit the mark again with those ever elusive arrows.

-9 ( +1 / -10 )

Wait until the next time Putin is in a bind, then offer to help him out in exchange for getting the islands back.

7 ( +7 / -0 )

How about having a referendum among the people themselves and ask them whether they want to be part of Russia or Japan? Of course this will never happen. But I believe it is best for the people themselves to decide thier own future.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

Well, in the present day and age, getting an explicit concession regarding the legality of a state act is very important. The South Korean Supreme Court has shown why it may no longer be feasible to just "paper over" the issue.

As for whether the Russians have a leg to stand on, I'll say they do. The critical moment is when Japan signed away its sovereignty to those islands in the San Francisco Peace Treaty. At that point, they are open to claimants, such as the people that happen to be sitting on them at the time.

And yes, they signed them away. You can't just keep narrowing the definition of words and remain respectable.

-8 ( +0 / -8 )

I ordered a cracking 1855 map of Japan (£6 from Amazon) and it arrived today. It reads, Nippon, Kiusiu, Sikok, Yesso and the Japanese Kuriles. So there you have it, they're Japanese! On a side note, it's pretty weird looking at different city names and prefectures!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/ANTIQUE-COLTON-HISTORIC-REPLICA-PAM0831/dp/B0126A56O6/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1547550842&sr=8-8&keywords=wall+map+of+japan

8 ( +8 / -0 )

Did any reader of this website actually think that Russia was going to give or cede any of these islands back to Japan? That will not happen. Only politicians fishing for votes in Japan bring the topic up.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Russia is playing hardball so Japan should too with regards to a peace treaty between the two countries. In oher words, "no island return, no peace treaty." 

Lol.....You would likely find that Putin doesnt give a toss about signing the peace treaty ....he just sees how desperate Abe is for some kind of diplomatic win...( any win, since he is failing in diplomatic relations with all of Japan,s neighbors atm ) before the next election and is toying with Abe to see if he can gain anything. Putin plays in a different chess league from Shinzo altogether.

-6 ( +0 / -6 )

William77Today  01:34 pm JST

OssanAmericaToday  12:24 pm JST

NIce try but Russia has no basis for their illegal occupation of the four islands that can be derived from the Cairo or Potsdam declarations of WWII.

"They covet no gain for themselves and have no thought of territorial expansion. It is their purpose that Japan shall be stripped of all the islands in the Pacific which she has seized or occupied since the beginning of the first World War in 1914, and that all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and The Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China. Japan will also be expelled from all other territories which she has taken by violence and greed. "

Cairo Declaration 1943

The four islands in question were never taken by violence or greed. They were negotiated with Russia in 1855 and became Japanese territory in accordance with the The Treaty of Commerce, Navigation and Delimitation.

The four islands are exempt from Japanese territories to be taken from Japan as (1) 1855 is well before 1914, and (2) they were never seized or taken by violence or greed.

Additionally the USSR violated the the Allied position that "They covet no gain for themselves and have no thought of territorial expansion".

As stated, the US, UK and the European Parliament consider the four islands to be Japanese territory.

"The U.S. maintains that until a peace treaty between Japan and Russia is concluded, the disputed Northern Territories remain occupied territory under Russian control via General Order No. 1."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuril_Islands_dispute

"The United States recognizes Russian-held islands off Japan’s northernmost main island as belonging to Japan, a U.S. official said Wednesday, speaking in connection with Russian military drills conducted in the disputed territory earlier this week."

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/08/14/national/u-s-recognizes-japans-sovereignty-over-russian-held-isles-official/#.XD3s_VxKi00

How about answering the question - what "western" country are you from that teaches you they are Russian?

9 ( +10 / -1 )

How do you connect 1871 and relatively recent?

The word is relative. At least 4 of my great grandparents were alive then. Time is a relative concept, but Hokkaido was not part of Japan for all but a small part of its history.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

"extankerJan. 15  10:00 am JST

@peeping_tom

Talk about missing my point..."

No, I did not; I wasn't quoting/addressing you in my response.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

At the last meeting with Putin, Trump totally agreed with Russia’s position on Syria and the Northern Japanese territories. It’s recorded in the interpreter’s notes. End of story.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

There is a geopolitical problem here. If Russia would give up those islands to Japan the U.S. would likely set up military bases there. This would be a threat to the Russian Far East, which is vulnerable enough as it is.

This is the realpolitik of the issue. It cannot be resolved under the status quo. The other realpolitik issue is in regard to Russian-Japanese relations. Peace treaty or not, Japan and Russia are not at war. In fact, Russia and Japan are friends. The islands aside, Russia and Japan have few if any conflicts.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

PacificpilotToday  08:59 am JST

At the last meeting with Putin, Trump totally agreed with Russia’s position on Syria and the Northern Japanese territories. It’s recorded in the interpreter’s notes. End of story.

The interpreter's notes that no one has seen and the Democrats are preparing to subpoena the interpreters over? Sure.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Those frigid lands . . . so difficult to live on . . . I don't think they are for peace.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

At the last meeting with Putin, Trump totally agreed with Russia’s position on Syria and the Northern Japanese territories. It’s recorded in the interpreter’s notes. End of story.

Given that Trump is not mentioned in the story and isn't in anyway relevant, it is not the beginning, middle or end of this story.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Japan was offered 2/4 last time. Too late. Now it's 0/4.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

@Peeping_Tom

No, I did not; I wasn't quoting/addressing you in my response.

Except that you still don't understand the point of my comment.

You went to great lengths to explain why the US could not annex Okinawa, when the point of my comment was never that the US would actually do so, but to point out the ridiculousness of the previous comment that I quoted, that said Japan lost the islands in the war, and needed to just 'get over it'.

I was simply pointing out that with that same attitude, Okinawa could have permanently become property of the United States and Japan could have done nothing about it, because Japan also 'lost it in the war'.

I did not need an explanation of annexing, as I was not suggesting that it actually be done...

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@Peeping_Tom

No, I did not; I wasn't quoting/addressing you in my response.

Also forgot to add the most important thing. You might be a little confused because yes, the comment you quoted and responded to was mine.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

FACEOFF! Mr Putin has runs out of patience and Mr Abe you are in trouble now!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

""But apparently we didn't have to according to gogogo. We could have annexed it and Japan would not have been allowed to complain because they 'lost in in the war'.

Correct"

This was the whole quote I was responding to; and it's definitely not yours. You made the first quote, somebody else quoted you and I re-quoted him.

You're the one who's confused.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

The word "atrocity" and " aggression" must have been defined in English speaking world in 1945.

You happened to realize humanitarianism in 1945 and needed sole evil Darth Vader to keep thing tidy and in order. Well Done as always

0 ( +0 / -0 )

This was the whole quote I was responding to; and it's definitely not yours. You made the first quote, somebody else quoted you and I re-quoted him.

You're the one who's confused.

First of all, go back and look at your original post. The word 'Correct' that you apparently were quoting, was not in quotes and looked like part of your response. So any confusion was caused by you.

I stand by my comment that your overblown response about how annexing works was still unnecessary because my comment was just hypothetical.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"First of all, go back and look at your original post. The word 'Correct' that you apparently were quoting, was not in quotes and looked like part of your response. So any confusion was caused by you."

You must be taking the Michael; I'm absolutely sure about that!

I urge you to actually go back to my original post where you will see that the world correct" is there, quotation marks and all. Deny, refute all you want but it's there. Unless a change of glasses is on order for somebody, who's not me.

""But apparently we didn't have to according to gogogo. We could have annexed it and Japan would not have been allowed to complain because they 'lost in in the war'.

Correct"

INCORRECT! (written by me)

This is yet another copy/past of my original post; a copy of another poster's response to you in which he wrote the word correct. Are you actually saying that I did not put that into quotations marks?! Really!

I then wrote INCORRECT, then proceeded to answer.

You're really confused.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Peeping_TomJan. 18 07:56 am JST

"First of all, go back and look at your original post. The word 'Correct' that you apparently were quoting, was not in quotes and looked like part of your response. So any confusion was caused by you."

You must be taking the Michael; I'm absolutely sure about that!

I urge you to actually go back to my original post where you will see that the world correct" is there, quotation marks and all. Deny, refute all you want but it's there. Unless a change of glasses is on order for somebody, who's not me.

Why is it so hard to understand what you did to cause confusion here?

The 'quote' function on this website is used to show you are quoting someone else. YOU used the quote function to quote what I said. THEN you added the second quote of someone else without using the quote function so it looks like plain text. All I see is my post being quoted, then the word 'Correct' written at the beginning of your comment with a single quotation mark after it that looks like you made a typo. Your post made no sense, it is up to you to type clearly, not me to translate what you MEANT for it to say.

This is how your response was formatted:

""But apparently we didn't have to according to gogogo. We could have annexed it and Japan would not have been allowed to complain because they 'lost in in the war'.

Correct"

The word 'Correct' is just floating there. It made no sense and that was your mistake that you did not format your response properly so that it made sense.

Next time try to use the tools you are given properly to avoid confusion.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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