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North Korea threatens to shoot down Japanese spy planes

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The military “will not tolerate even a bit the aerial espionage by the warmongers of the Japanese aggression forces but mercilessly shoot down any plane intruding into the territorial air of the (North) even 0.001 mm,” the air force said in a statement carried Saturday by the country’s official Korean Central News Agency.

Let the games begin!!! After 60 odd years of not being involved as an aggressive force in a major conflict I fear the Japanese military would long for nothing better than for NK to shoot down one of their planes giving them the right to employ the the most high-tech military in the world and send NK back into the stone age. However, that loon in NK is very likely to retaliate by sending a few nuclear missiles to Japan. Could be time to start seriously considering getting the hell out of Asia.

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I guess Japan wants to reap what it sows.

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Violations of NK airspace by spy planes can only make things worse. With satellites pretty much the same intel can be obtained. I guess they WANT an excuse to fight.

I dont agree that Japan is the most high-tech military in the world. They may have some cool toys, but these are not battle proven as the US has been doing for the last 20 years. In the US easily more than 50% of R&D is defense related, in Japan most R&D is used to develop lifelike dolls...

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I doubt that NK shoots down Japanese surveillance airplanes. If they did it, US surveillance airplanes might be shot down mistakenly. Can't see difference on radar.

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I dont agree that Japan is the most high-tech military in the world.

You should agree because they ARE the most well equipped and have the most high tech gadgets. They are also the heaviest drilled military in the world so battle proving should make no difference.

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Japan shouldn't be flying in NK airspace, NK actually has a point here (for once).

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gogogo is right. How would you like a hidden camera in your bathroom?

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"battle proven as the US has been doing for the last 20 years." Don't you mean "lost as many wars as the US"

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Disillusioned, if what you have posted is correct, will you please post links or documents for study. Thank you.

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Weren't the Japanese begging for the F22 a few weeks ago? Can't see why they'd be doing that if they have such a high tech force.

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disallusioned> not sure where u get that pov from....as they buy nearly all their military hardware from the US and even then these are usually 2nd gen stuff (the US loathe to sell full versions of their latest kit to anyone - look at the continuing saga with the JSF and their export customers). SO Japan most definitely do not have the most high tech military in the world....btw I have actually sold some military wares to the Japanese Army, so I know what I am talking about here.

and as for drills versus reality....u should talk to people who have actually fought in a war. It certainly opened my eyes after meeting some lads who came back from afgan.

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gogogo

Do you honestly think that the JASDF were flying anywhere near DPRK airspace? For starters the E-767 is an early-warning airborne radar which can conduct its 'aerial espionage' from a couple hundred miles out. You and Den Den are in need of a reality check it seems...

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There is only one reason, and one reason alone, that North Korea is doing this. It has vewry little to do with the 6-party talks, and more to do with one, mitigating factor. If North Korea seriously starts dropping nukes, they'd be immensly stupid, something I think Kim Jongil is not. However, he will continue doing his thing for some tme to come, basically because he knows he can, and any U.N. "Sanctions" that come about as a result will carry no teeth, and there is one, glaringly clear reason why....

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"mercilessly shoot down any plane intruding into the territorial air of the (North) even 0.001 mm"

Who wrote that little gem of a line for them...Dr Evil? They crack me up. The world will miss them for their absurd propaganda when they are gone. They are definetley a one of a kind.

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They are also the heaviest drilled military in the world so battle proving should make no difference.

yeah...right......but if you could monitor a soldier's mind and count how many times a minute "Doshyo" comes up, they would be the best too...Battle proven makes no difference? sure hehehehee. give me a karate student that only practice 'kata' for 5years and see what happens....

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Like USNinJapan2 said, the E-767 is a flying radar, not a photograper. It dont need to fly over NK space for keep their missiles under surveillance when Elvis launch them. The gob only want to keep a close eye on the missiles and is not planining anything beyond that. NK is just hoting the air, because they cant do anything for stop us.

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USNinJapan2: Japan didn't deny it.

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A Japanese attorney I know claims that the US is actually funding North Korea to act up so that Japan, who is growing increasingly independent of it's long-term American masters, will revert to type and start pleading "Please keep your essential armed forces on our islands Uncle Sam - you're the only country who can save us from the evil Kim Jong Il!!!" Fact or fiction?

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Conspiracy theories, apologists for North Korea, and the odd stab at "Japan", just another typical day on JT...

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North Korea are kind of cute, in a way. Maybe they might bite your finger, but that is in their nature.

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MagnusGarstin China has the USA worried. NK is nothing. Rumsfeld worked with India and Japan to contain China (same weapon systems etc.). No one can contain China alone. Together we can. Now for NK. Let Japan go for it with US support, of course (Got to keep China at bay). Like a poster above said, shoot the plane down please. But maybe your Lawyer is right. Anything is possible. China would love to see Japan alone. Pay back...

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gogogo:

No ofense, but in my opinion monitor missile launch sites with flying radars outside the borders of NK, is not so terrible or threatening as kidnaping inocent japanese civilians inside Japan's borders. Please take note that both are acts of espionage.

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North Korea takes people for fools as a standard MO, and anyone who actually beliaves Japanese E-767s would have to actually be in NKorean Airspace falls into their target categoey. The NKoreans have made a routine out of complaining about our (U.S.) surveillance planes being in their airspace when they were not. As to the equipment possessed by the JSDF, whether they are the very best in latest gadetry is a mute point since the opposition are an outdated military loaded with old soviet era crap which they haven't been able to upkeep or upgrade due to financial limitations. While the JSDF has not had actual combat experience, neither has the DPRKLA since 1951 outside of small skirmishes with the ROK. Anyway, it's very bery unlikely that ANY surveillance planes are really flying over NKorean airspace.

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If Japan is flying in NK airspace, then they deserve to be shot down. Can anyone logically disagree with this? It is not so much a threat but rather a rare statement of reason by NK.

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A Japanese attorney I know claims that the US is actually funding North >Korea to act up so that Japan, who is growing increasingly independent >of it's long-term American masters, will revert to type and start >pleading "Please keep your essential armed forces on our islands Uncle >Sam - you're the only country who can save us from the evil Kim Jong >Il!!!" Fact or fiction?

Fiction for the most part. I've heard the same from a few Japanese myself. NKorea isn't necessary for the US to keep bases in Japan, China alone is more than sufficient for that purpose.

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HERE kitty, kitty, kitty, kitty....

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If Japan is flying in NK airspace, then they deserve to be shot down.

So presumably you were okay when Korean Airlines flight 007 was shot down by the Soviets for being in their airspace. They deserved it, right?

By the way, where does it say that any Japanese military aircraft actually did enter NK airspace, rather than "near" it?

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@MagnusGarstin; "A Japanese attorney I know claims that the US is actually funding North Korea to act up so that Japan, who is growing increasingly independent of it's long-term American masters, will revert to type and start pleading "Please keep your essential armed forces on our islands Uncle Sam - you're the only country who can save us from the evil Kim Jong Il!!!" Fact or fiction"

your lawyer friend wouldn't happen to be a member of the japanese communist party now would he/she?

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“will not tolerate even a bit the aerial espionage by the warmongers of the Japanese aggression forces but mercilessly shoot down any plane intruding into the territorial air of the (North) even 0.001 mm,”

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UnagiDon at 10:09 PM JST - 28th June

If Japan is flying in NK airspace, then they deserve to be shot down.

So presumably you were okay when Korean Airlines flight 007 was shot down by the Soviets for being in their airspace. They deserved it, right?

YUP!

By the way, where does it say that any Japanese military aircraft actually did enter NK airspace, rather than "near" it?

Read the article. Nobody said it did???

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Hamiltontruther asked:

your lawyer friend wouldn't happen to be a member of the japanese communist party now would he/she?

Nope - your grandfather wouldn't happen to be Senator Joseph McCarthy would he?

(Any time anyone makes an anti-American comment, let's blame it on those pesky commies, eh? Sure makes it a lot easier than facing up to the fact that many Japanese and Europeans just don't like the dear old US of A and trust it about as much as they'd trust George W. Bush to pass a first grade spelling test).

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UnagiDon: "So presumably you were okay when Korean Airlines flight 007 was shot down by the Soviets for being in their airspace. They deserved it, right?"

Was Korean Airlines Flight 007 a spy plane flying over North Korea? Ummm.... nope. Any other unrelated examples you want to bring up to make your undermine your argument? I believe the threat is to shoot down Japanese spy planes that go into NK space, not Korean commercial airliners going over Russia.

Now, do you want to talk about the NKorea government being insane? We can.

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I am getting ready to profit from this war.

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"mercilessly shoot down any plane intruding into the territorial air of the (North) even 0.001 mm"

Who wrote that little gem of a line for them...Dr Evil? They crack me up. The world will miss them for their absurd propaganda when they are gone. They are definetley a one of a kind.

Correct! I was thinking the exact thing. Kim Jung Il reminds me of 'Baghdad Bob' always full of entertainment. Baghdadbob.com is an web archive dedicated to all of his stupid quotes. Someone needs a launch a site quoting Kim Jung Il's absurd windbag hilarities. The truth though, is that Kim Jong Il is an extremely evil tyrant who operates Gulag/Concentration Camp like Labor Camps in North Korea, for those innocence prisoners, it isn't a joke. Il is no different than Hitler and needs to eliminated. It is improper that a world threat like Kim Jung Il be allowed to threaten a peaceful democracy like Japan. I would be perfectly comfortable with a nuclear Japan, perhaps it's time Japan considers this option.

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E-767 costed 575 millions of american dollars and have a huge detection range. Anyone that think that J is going to send it inside NK's air space need to make a very good explanation of how that make any sense.

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Smith;

Was Korean Airlines Flight 007 a spy plane flying over North Korea? Ummm.... nope. Any other unrelated examples you want to bring up to make your undermine your argument?

Apparently it was related enough to Kanadmanada's post (violating airspace deserves a shoot-down) which my comment was in response to, and which he/she answered "yes" to, so perhaps it is your slightly hysterical reply to my comment which is unrelated?

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mareo2: I agree with you, but this article says Japan was INSIDE NK's airspace.

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kanadamanada;

YUP!

So shooting down civilian airliners is okay, gotcha.

Read the article. Nobody said it did???

My mistake, that wasn't asked of you specifcally. Just pointing out that several here have acted like it HAS occurred, tkaing the words of that pargaon of honest journalism, the Korean Central News Agency

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gogogo;

It says NEAR Musudan-ri, and again, that is according to the Korean Central News Agency. Trusting them is hardly a wise idea.

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How about N Korea worrying about feeding their citizens....

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NK really needs to calm down and think before they send out these ridiculous statements, they're only harming themselves. As far as the ridiculous theory that the U.s backs these loons....wow. I really have to wonder about some people who believe everything they hear. Do you also believe that the U.S planned 9/11 and knew about Pearl Harbor beforehand? Do you believe in unicorns too? No offense, but being in Japan has been nothing but a burden to the U.S. This country does nothing but suck treasure and resources from the U.S, with very little benefit. We have a presence in SK so being here is strategically useless now. Even during the cold war, when Russia was still a major threat we were thinking about pulling out of here. Frankly, I can't wait for the day when you get rid of Article 9 and my country can get the hell out of here, I'm tired of American money being used to prop up this little island and still being seen as the bad guy.

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Unagi: "Apparently it was related enough to Kanadmanada's post (violating airspace deserves a shoot-down) which my comment was in response to, and which he/she answered "yes" to, so perhaps it is your slightly hysterical reply to my comment which is unrelated?"

Just because someone else made the gut reaction to say yes that it's okay to shoot down a civilian does not at all make your outrageous comparison 'valid'. He answered yes simply to entertain your bizarre little allegory. The only 'hysterical' comments on here are yours, using Kanadmanada's sarcastic reply as validation. Do you HONESTLY believe the comparisons are valid? Come on, bud.... you're arguments are weaker than normal here. Ah, then, but hey... you did apologize to Kanadamanada for lumping him into certain group when he was not (further undermining your argument).

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gogogo:

It said that we regularly do these kind of operations, I just cant imagine NK siting doing nothing if we enter in their airspace regularly. If we really entered their airspace like you say... Why they dont say so? Why they dont fired a shoot of warning? And/or "scorted" out the E-767 with north koreans fighters? Again, no ofense, but In my humble opinion you are jumping to conclusions.

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Smith;

Obviously you're right - trolling for a reaction from my at 2am by interjecting yourself into a discussion and contributing nothing but ad hominems against me could hardly be construed as "hysterical". My bad.

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The clock is ticking but all that's being done is talk...

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Bring it on North Korea! The 767 should have a escort of air sdf aircraft. So it will be modern F-15s against old Soviet crud. I do not think the aircraft will be in their airspace unless one considers the entire Sea of Japan as such.

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How do NK measure air space? Does the demarcation line follow in detail around every small island on that rocky shore, or is it an averaged distance?

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War profit! Licking my lips...

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flatearther at 01:39 AM JST - 29th June I can't wait for the day when you get rid of Article 9 and my country can get the hell out of here, I'm tired of American money being used to prop up this little island and still being seen as the bad guy.

You really need to educate yourself. Japan pays for the US to be in Japan for their defense. The US is in Japan because they LET the US be here. It's also in the interest of both countries, as well as many other near-by nations who benefit from defense, aid, (food, clothing) and rescue capability all possible because of the US forces in Japan.

Funny NK said this, they didn't even mention anything about the US spy missions that fly over NK almost daily. Nor do they even have the capability to shoot down high altitude aircraft.

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Japanese aggression forces

calling the JSDF that is hilarious at best.

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According to the CIA factbook, Japan's defense budget is the 5th largest in the world. While they might not be battle hardened, neither are the NK forces, and they are very well equipped relatively speaking. If there is any country in the world I'd be worried about re-militarizing, it'd be Japan.

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North Korea threatens to __(VERB) Japanese __(NOUN).

Another day of Mad Libs in the hermit kingdom.

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@MagnusGarstin; that's a humorous post. just to be sure i'm from hamilton, ontario, but am aware of the japan's communist party's stance toward america. any one nation of the six nations can point their finger at the other one and pointedly claim why that nation doesn't want a unified korean peninsula. i've heard japanese explain why japan doesn't want a re-unified korea, which was refreshing because as we all know the japanese are not ones to criticize themselves. these comments range from economic reasons, to japan's potential if not already nuclear weapons capability (this is from the japanese corner who don't want a nuclear japan) , to they just don't want a unified korea for whatever reason. it appears that your friend is one of those all too typical, blame it on america types, as they have no answer as to why so they lazily blame it on a convenient target. one thing you might admit is that it is very entertaining the usage of north korea's language?

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If there is any country in the world I'd be worried about re->militarizing, it'd be Japan.

That statement, taken by itself is quite true. However, anyone who has spent any real time in Japan or followed Japanese politics knows that it's quite impossible for Japan to return to a Pre-WWII Militarized state. And even if we are talking about "militarizing" as in re-writing the current contitutin and securing offensive capability, again, it's hardly a concern to anyone in the region other than North Korea and China. IE; any nation not in the American camp.

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btw I have actually sold some military wares to the Japanese Army, so I >know what I am talking about here.

I've never run across anyone who knew what they were talking about in terms of Japan and military equipment but failed to refer to the JGSDF by their correct name.

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@societymike- Japan only pays a very small portion of the large bill that is run up daily by the U.S forces being here. They do not pay for the Aegis carriers, the subs, the salaries of the military and civilian personnel here, the numerous planes stationed here and maintenance costs associated with them, etc. Please look it up. U.S citizens pay for that.

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My understanding is that Japan pays for most of the actual base costs. Why should they be paying for the US Navy's operational costs? The 7th Fleet is in Japan to protect and support United States interests in the region, not just "protect Japan".

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Who said anything about the Navy? There are AF bases here as well as naval bases. Japan only spends 2 billion every year, a very small fraction of the amount it costs to defend this country. As far as protecting our interests is concerned, SK should do nicely for that purpose AND they actually appreciate our military being there. Honestly? I wish my country's military would leave Japan, then I wouldn't have to read the nasty anti-U.S rants posted here.

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flatearther;

I wish my country's military would leave Japan, then I wouldn't have to read the nasty anti-U.S rants posted here.

I think nasty anti-US rants would be a sad fact of life even if all US forces left - JT posters are not known for rational thinking.

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UnagiDon- Sadly, I think you're right.

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Well if war does break out, most of you guys don't have the right to be whining it affects you.

I hope Japan needs to draft you and maybe you can meet these guys (who live off $5 dollars a day, and tired of Western garbage) face-to-face.

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I've never run across anyone who knew what they were talking about in terms of Japan and military equipment but failed to refer to the JGSDF by their correct name

Their correct but supiciously misleading name.

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I think nasty anti-US rants would be a sad fact of life even if all US forces left

And I wonder why that is - anything to do with American arrogance in general?

(I was going to write "American culture" but then that would be an oxymoron)

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I've never run across anyone who knew what they were talking about in >terms of Japan and military equipment but failed to refer to the JGSDF >by their correct name Their correct but supiciously misleading name.

Why misleading Nessie? Can you name one JSDF action or deployment that was "offensive or aggressive" since their inception? And I trust you are aware of the wording in the J-constitution which grossly limits the use of military force.

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Who said anything about the Navy?

You did: "They do not pay for the Aegis carriers, the subs,..."

Japan only spends 2 billion every year, a very small fraction of the >amount it costs to defend this country.

That's because you're lumping our military operating costs together with the cost of the bases. WE, as in the United States, decide on the operations, not Japan. So why in the world should they pay for it?

As far as protecting our interests is concerned, SK should do nicely for >that purpose AND they actually appreciate our military being there.

You're on a different planet than the rest of us. Anti-US feelings are far far more rampant in Skorea than in Japan. If you really are unaware of this I suggest you speak to a few of our men in uniform who have experience in both host countries.

Honestly? I wish my country's military would leave Japan, then I >wouldn't have to read the nasty anti-U.S rants posted here

The nasty anti-US rants posted here are, for the most part, not comming from J-posters. In fact I really think there are very few J-posters here to start with.

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OssanAmerica- I also mentioned planes as well as personnel, funny that you only saw Navy. Why, yes, I am lumping together all of the costs. That only makes sense, you can't pick and choose what you pay for. However, Japan can, and does, and they complain about our presence here while they do so. That offends me. I don't need to speak to military personnel in SK, I've been to SK, spoken to SKoreans, spoken to military personnel there, etc. If you had a bad experience there, I'm truly sorry. However, mine was entirely positive, and I was there this year.Perhaps my experience is simply more current than yours. You may be right that many of the offensive posts may not be from Japanese people, I will grant you that. In a face to face conversation, many Japanese people shy away from discussing this topic. The word Anno is usually the most you will hear in real life.

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Real Estate agents need to sell mortgages to pay their rent, recruiters need turnover, soldiers need war machine. Its a big policy machine we live in run by psychopaths. "Just doing your job" within the machine just doesn't justify anything or make you feel proud of yourself anymore.

Tough and understandable call, but sell out and pretend to deny it, or stop fooling yourself.

Its not how tough, proud, or face-to-face you are, its what you are selling out to. It doesn't matter if the old man or old lady is saying "anno", maybe they think you're prone to violence.

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jhk- Huh?

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“will not tolerate even a bit the aerial espionage by the warmongers of the Japanese aggression forces"

That's a real quote? Was it followed by "times one million no come-backs"?

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Why misleading Nessie? Can you name one JSDF action or deployment that was "offensive or aggressive" since their inception? And I trust you are aware of the wording in the J-constitution which grossly limits the use of military force.

I’m not aware of that wording. I am aware of the wording that WISELY limits use of military force.

Japan's lower house just passed a bill - it will take effect in late July - which allows Japan's 'self-defense forces' (SDF) to open fire on pirates operating off the coast of Somalia not only if a Japanese vessel is under attack but also if the vessel is sailing under another country's flag.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/japans-antipiracy-law-authorizes-use-weapons

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OssanAmerica- I also mentioned planes as well as personnel, funny that >you only saw Navy. Why, yes, I am lumping together all of the costs. >That only makes sense, you can't pick and choose what you pay for. >However, Japan can, and does,

No , you're flat out wrong. Do you honestly believe that Japan, or any other host nation for US forces has the right to pick and choose what US assets are to be placed there? WE do the choosing, not anyone else.

and they complain about our presence here while they do so. That offends >me.

One; Far less than South Korea.Two; anti-US base protests are limited to areas where they are located. Three; anti-US base protests exist practically every country in the world. We can leave Japan any time we want. It's just that Japan is the most reliable ally we have in the region and geographically serves as a gateway for oerations in Asia. Alot of my friends who were in Vietnam got there by way of Okinawa. Seriously, there's alot more to be offended by elsewhere.

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I’m not aware of that wording. I am aware of the wording that WISELY limits use of military force.

Article 9. Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes.

I consider terms such as "forever renounce" and "the threat or use of force" to grossly limit the use of military force. Ad of course the Somali Pirates, that's a police action against criminals, not a military action against a soverign state.

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OssanAmerica- Yes, we choose which assets to place in Japan much as your landlord would "choose" to fix your leaky plumbing, because we have to. We don't have a choice to leave this country, please. If your most current military experience is via your friends who were in Okinawa during Vietnam, I can certainly understand your confusion over our current relationship with SK. Japan played a huge role in past wars, but what does that have to do with the present? Not much.

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flatearther - You've been wrong on nearly all of your statements and you've topped it with this "we don't have a choice to leave this country". Why do we not have a choice? Who is FORCING us to maintain troops in Japan or anywhere else? And no, my relationship with military friends go back to Vietnam and end up at Camp Casey ROK in the 1990s. You have absolutely no idea about how SKoreans, especially the young, feel about the US MIlitary presence, or did you happen to miss every SKorean administration prior Lee Myung Bak? Do the words Tank and school girls mean anything to you? Anyway, kamsamnida for a nice chat, I'll go look for a discussion partner who actually knows what they're talking about.

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Go ahead Jong, it'll be the last thing you do.

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I consider terms such as "forever renounce" and "the threat or use of force" to grossly limit the use of military force. Ad of course the Somali Pirates, that's a police action against criminals, not a military action against a soverign state.

Intelligent people may disagree honestly on whether the constitution is overly constraining (I tend to agree that it is), but that’s a completely different issue. Whether the pirate ships are directed by a foreign state or acting independently is also beside the point. The fact is that approval for actions by Japanese military vessels halfway across the world in defense of non-Japanese vessels clearly contravenes the constitution. That’s why the “JSDF” is a silly name. A better name would be the Japan Not Really Self-Defense Forces because We Are Contravening the Constitution. Or if you prefer, the Japan Not Really Self-Defense Forces because We Are Contravening a Constitution We Feel Is Too Constraining but That No-one Has the Will or Guts to Change.

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Whether the pirate ships are directed by a foreign state or acting >independently is also beside the point. The fact is that approval for >actions by Japanese military vessels halfway across the world in defense >of non-Japanese vessels clearly contravenes the constitution.

Disagree entirely with the above. Nothing contained in the J-constitution makes reference to physical location or distance from Japan as a standard for self defense. Japanese flag commercial ships are the equivalent of Japanese property in Japan, a maritime concept accepted by all nations of the world for over a century. Therefore the JSDF has a right, perhaps an obligation, to protect Japanese interests. Expecially since the Somali Pirates are not representing any sovereign state and the JSDF action would have no bearing on settling "international disputes". Furthermore a call for action against the pirates has been sanctioned by the UN.

A better name would be the Japan Not Really Self-Defense Forces because >We Are Contravening the Constitution.

Agree completely with the above, the very existence of a military force, no matter how defense oriented it may be, of the size and capability of the JSDF is in direct contradiction to Article 9. So either they ought to terminate the SDF or call it the Japanese Armed Forces. Of course one could reasonablr argue that even as a normal non-restrained military a name is just a name, after all both Israel and Australia have "Self Defense Forces" in name alone.

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Disagree entirely with the above. Nothing contained in the J-constitution makes reference to physical location or distance from Japan as a standard for self defense.

I guess you didn't notice that the Japanese military would be able to engage pirates even when no Japanese flagged ships were involved. In other words, patently not self defense. And it seems that you're arguing that if a Japanese national was mugged in Mexico, the Japanese military would not be constitutionally prevented from becoming involved there. Distance is one factor in defining self-defense.

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