Noda says no compromise with China over disputed islands

U.S. tells that the territorial dispute should be solved peacefully between the two countries, and therefore the position is same as the Chinese in this respect

Wait...how are the Chinese threats of nukes, carriers, war, and riots, considered peaceful?

Otherwise, yeah, agree with most of what you said.

Then he should proceed along that path, instead of wasting everybody's valuable time...

Tian, you've been repeating this for a few weeks. It's been mentioned several times, but apparently you've missed it: Japan can't take it to the ICJ because they are not the ones disputing the claim. The person with the complain has to petition the court to hear the case. The very first move China should have made was to ask the ICJ for arbitration.

The real question is why it has not yet done so. In practically every announcement made by the Japanese side, they have mentioned that they have no problem taking this to international court. The only reason that anyone can think of is that China knows full well who has the strongest legal claim, and has pretty much painted itself into a corner regarding what actions it can take without looking even more amateurish than it already does.

Where can I find completely clear international understanding that the islands were to be returned to China, so that Japan has no way to claim that Senkaku is Japanese? Because it is only Japan which effectively controlled the islands for more than 100 years. Prior to Japan integrated Senkaku it was no-man's land. Having the islands in the old map does not mean that China/Taiwan controlled the islands under international law. U.S. does not say it is Chinese or Japanese which does not mean it belongs to China. U.S. tells that the territorial dispute should be solved peacefully between the two countries, and therefore the position is same as the Chinese in this respect and is different from Japnese government which tells that he has not territorial issue regarding Senkaku.

If China is a country which respects international common sense and laws, the dispute can be easily solved. But China is notorious country where people freely violate laws of patents, copyright, etc. There are more than plenty of people who violates not only domestic laws being indifferent to the lives of the people, but also international laws, simply for money. China always insists that territorial disputes are to be solved between the two countries involved, with Japan, Vietnam and Phillipines, with whom China has superior military and economic power, with which they are squeezing the opponents and thinking that he will get what he wants in the long run. On this time of trouble Chinese goverment is, as his usual practice, forcing the people to stop travelling to Japan to punish Japan economically. The last time they stopped export of rare earths to Japan for squeezing and intimidation.

China does not know how to respect international law and common sense. and their people are unfortunately same. You know that Japan cannot refuse arbitration by ICJ if China bring the issue to ICJ. At this moment Japan canot bring the issue as the position kept by the government regarding Senkaku is that Japan has no territorial dispute. But China will not bring it to ICJ, because he thinks he can bring all disputed countries to terms by military and economic powers. And China knows that the chance is not high to win the case under the international law for all. And China knows that uncivilized fanatics like you and your friends cause riots not only against Japan but next time against the government, if he loses the case at ICJ.

If this discussion includes the atrocities done by Imperial Japan--then this dark history in Japan can never compare to our (US) country's foundation of genocide and slavery.

When our Founding Fathers wrote these words "All men are created equal..." they omitted the part "...except my slaves and the native savages".

How many natives and slaves did we (US) murder?.

As a strategic defacto 51st state, Japan's sovereignty is completely protected by US lives and hardware.

By having Japan as a staging grounf for any war against China or Russia or anywhere else in Asia, makes it vitally essential to national interest.

So , if Japan commits to military actions,, what would be the US response?

Japan can fight China over those disputed islands but there would be absolutely no risk to acknolwledged Japanese sovereignty.

peaceful world: Japan army killed about total 260,000,000 normall people in china.

How did you get this impossible numbers? Do you have a common sense?Japan never has not had any weapon of mass destruction. I have no intention to say Japan is innocent at all. However the numbers you posted is unreal and it could go into people's mind as a wrong history. This is a good example that has produced misunderstanding between Japan and China. The impression to the world from Japan is that Japan never accept its' responsibility. That is not true. At least,for the last 67 years, Japan has been showing its` commitment for the peace. Supporting UN. Japan is the second largest contribution country. For China, for the Chinese infrastructure, Beijing Airport, Pudong Airport, the main railway lines, power plants, and steel mills were all built with Japanese ODA. Something positive, we have never heard from Chinese people.

But much nationalism from China Japan made keeping who and what Japan has been is more difficult. Japan might be having some turning point now after 67 years. In this sense, I have to criticize the Jiang Zemin Administration enacted the "patriotism educational implementation guideline" in 1994, and promoted the thorough anti-Japanese education from 1995 which will hit "the 50th anniversary of an anti-Japanese war victory." Directions were taken out with the meeting in which the diplomatic authorities, such as an ambassador " The history issues are emphasized from beginning to end, and saying it moreover while continuing telling Japan thoroughly must be continued forever"in August, 1998.Anti-Japan sentiment increases by Jiang Zemin's anti-Japanese policy in China.

Also I do not know which photographs you are taking about, some of them are already proved that were manufactured because some sequence photos were found.

As far the numbers of victims are concerned, it is a good idea before you put it on the public place like here, your own confirmation is important. Otherwise the # you put here could be talked about more people that will make the situation more difficult to resolve for both nations.

I sincerely hope one day, the grope of international historians will do a real research to find out the truth of WW2. So that we can have the same history book for the better future. The history should be learned not to hate someone but not making the same mistakes in past. So that,whatever Japan needs to accept its`s responsibility, Japan can handle, but this kind of rumor yo put here will make the situation worse. Please find out as mush as you could before keep posting 260,000,000.again. then let your Chinese friend who told you 260,000,000 were killed by Japaneses know your research for the sake of Peaceful World.

No matter whose territory the Senkaku are the Chinese reaction has been completely improper. In fact, China's claim to everything inside the "nine dashed line" is just plain out of line with internaional law. But China tries to bully one country at a time. This is improper. It sounds more like Japan in the run up to WWII. China hasn't learned anything from history when it comes to international politics. They do know that corruption has sunk every Chinese government before them. So they stir up nationalism to divert attention from the real problem - the Chinese government!

smithinjapanSep. 27, 2012 - 04:32PM JST Yes, let's paint a bigger target on it than there already is.

So you have no problems being slapped around by bullies and thugs?

smithinjapanSep. 27, 2012 - 04:32PM JST Same can be said of Japan, especially when people like Yuri are demanding war, and people like you are saying Japan should 'arm up'. You decry one nation for being 'thugs' but want to be just like them in the end.

We were not the folks burning down building and attacking innocent people in the streets, those were the PRC thugs.

smithinjapanSep. 27, 2012 - 04:32PM JST Like I said before, regardless of who wins the next race for PM, the first thing they will do while pandering to the public about bolstering strength will be to ask China for a meeting to calm tensions and keep the outsourcing where it is.

You sound exactly like Neville Chamberlain,"give them what they want and they will not bully us or our friends no longer."

Look him up and see how well his tactic worker against the Germans.

smithinjapanSep. 27, 2012 - 04:32PM JST That will require Japan stands down on the rhetoric, and it will, almost immediately.

So if someone burns down your house would you say the same thing?

"Wow dude, you burnt down my house and are throwing rocks at me now, hey, here you go have my wife and just leave me alone"

That strategy would go over real well now won't it!

A dog is always a dog following the order of its owner with no dignity for itself.

If you know as much about people as you do about dogs, it explains a great many of your comments.

If the dog does not listen , it is time to teach him a hard lesson no matter how violently it barks and regarding of its owner being USA.

This is, of course, assuming that you yourself aren't a dog. And the USA isn't holding a rolled-up newspaper, which is far more advanced than a set of teeth (have we run this analogy into the ground yet? I'm not sure what the role of the flea collar or doggy clothing would be).

Though China has not yet caught up with USA in some respects ,it is strong enough to defend itself in term of nuclear deterrence.

Congratulations. China is now ready to defend itself from the biggest wartime threat...of the 1980's. Rest of the world has moved on.

The next number 1 economic super power is within China's reach in 10 years while Japan is on the brink of bankrupcy with debts more than double GDP now-

Not the first time a country has faced this, and it certainly won't be the last. It may be new to China, being that this is the first time it has achieved the level of economic powerhouse, but the rest of the global players have ridden this roller-coaster before.

-,coupled with the consisten threat of volcano eruption putting the whole nation under stake for good.

Okay, let's go ahead and rank your knowledge of geology right up the with your knowledge of dogs.

When China talks lawfully to Japan regarding Diaoyu Islands, it talks nonsense back as demonstrated by many here.

Opposing viewpoints are not nonsense by default. The can be wrong, they can be incorrect, and yes, they can even be nonsense, but if your first and only claim is that opposing viewpoints are nonsense by default, then don't expect your viewpoints to be given any respect either. Respect isn't about agreement; respect is about understanding.

When China talks nonsense in the way it does to refute, it comes to talk civilization for a change.No way for a human being to reason with a dog .

Not completely sure what you are saying here...

Japan is one which knowledges nothing but power and force with no respect for rule of law or civilization,

That sort of nonsense statement immediately tells the rest of the world that you cannot be taken seriously as a reasonable debater.

because of which millions of Asians and Americans were slaughtered in Japan's past wars of aggression ,including Nanking massacre depriving 0.3 million Chinese of their lives which most Japanese tried to deny out of fear.

Yes, wars happen. They also end. You learn from your mistakes. You apologize and move on. It's called progress. America had issues with Japan and Germany as well. Decades later, we consider each other allies. Yes, there are the occasional cultural and political differences. By understanding their position, even though we don't necesarilly agree with it, we are able to resolve matters in a civil and diplomatic fashion. We don't threaten to nuke them, and proclaim our willingness to kill every last member of our country as long as the enemy dies too.

So China must take the dog-beating stick this time together with nuclear warheads , ready to teach the dog in the hard way, otherwise once the right-wing militarism party comes to office,another millions of people will be jeopardized and moreover, Pearl Harbor will be the first attack target a second time if it arms up.

China missed the boat on the imperial age (or rather, it got off to an early start, and missed the current round). China attempting to use nuclear weapons (and yeah, an attempt is all it will ever amount to) will do more to unite the rest of the world than anything else has in the course of history. In the long term view, in terms of human civilization, it could almost even be considered a good thing. The world of the future would see it as the final nail in the coffin of the age of the barbarian, the primitive world that lived separately before the Earth finally realized that it really wasn't big enough to be cut up into smaller parts.

May I assume you are familiar with Cairo Declaration and Podsdam Declaration?

You may.

China claims Diaoyu/Senkaku should have the same status as Taiwan, Manchuria and etc.

China claims a lot of things. So does Japan. Claims are largely meaningless. What is important is the evidence that supports the claim.

I am not sure if you know the case put forth by China. Other sources aside, China just published a white paper on it.

I am quite familiar with the claim, and I have read the paper. As you can see in that document, at no time since the First Japanese occupation in 1895, did China ever formally complain to anyone about the island. Curiously, in the paper they claim that the terra nullus investigation was carried out secretly, and then go on to confirm that it was presented and public to the territorial construction, and even that a Chinese paper had noticed the Japanese flag on the island. China really needed to say something at that point, to anyone (heck, most people who have something stolen make sure everyone and anyone around them knows it). The entire paper is basically a set of reasons why China thinks the islands do not belong to Japan. The problem, however, is that the main reason no one is taking the claim seriously (did you see the turnout for the UN talk?) is because no matter how justified China is in thinking it has reasons, it still didn't make a single complaint or mention to the rest of the world regarding ownership for three-quarters of a century. The world isn't capable of mind-reading. To the world, it just looks like China ignored the island for all those decades, and that is what the world is going to act on.

Maybe the judges of the Guinness World Records should take up the case. If it is true that these islands had not been found until 1884, it's got be the last discovery of the sort in the East China Sea. It can at least be counted in the 1800s, probably ever.:-)

Thing of it is that it really isn't a question of discovery. History and discovery actually play a very minimal role in the case of possession because, simply put, possession changes hands on a fairly regular basis, and isn't all that decent an indicator of ownership in the first place (who saw the moon first?). Determining possession isn't so much about who owned the islands last; it is about whether the current owners obtained it through legitimate means. In the case of abandonment, pretty much all first-world countries agree on what are referred to as the concept of laches, or squatter's rights. Possession is 9/10ths of the law, and the ones who develop and administrate a piece of law tend to have a stronger claim than an owner who doesn't show up till decades later (particularly when the only reason they show up is because possible wealth was found on the property).

It is a relief that you take the documentation process so seriously. Now if you also agree that back in the 1800s, nations didn't register their land all in one format, we are set.:-)

Not so much documentation as behaviour. Possession isn't just about who owns the pink slip. The one who bears the responsibility for the subject is also given a great deal of weight, in my personal opinion often more so than that of the documented owner who has not borne any responsibility. Abandonment of anything, be it property, people, or livestock, is not generally looked upon favorably.

I liked it, very clear words from Noda. Now everybody know what the japanese think about these islands and nobody have to imagine/guess/suppose/misunderstand it anymore.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012-09/27/content_15785815.htm

Beijing vows more measures on Diaoyu Islands

Japan stole the islands at the end of the Sino-Japanese War (1894-95). Key declarations following World War II, including the Cairo Declaration, clearly returned the islands to China.

Strongly disagree with the above view by PRC.

Pior to Cairo Accord, Senkaku was a part of Okinawa. After the Cairo Accord, Okinawa including Senkaku went to US military occupation, then returned to Japan.

No more copying and pasting please. Just post your opinion on the topic.

Guru29. Excellent job in educating some of the readers.

Like I said before, you can not just blindly follow or believe politicians. They are masters of deception. It is through historians and objective evidence that we should develop and support our beliefs. I am providing again two great sources of neutral information. Please e-mail them to everybody who is thirsty for knowledge:

www.skycity.com/japan/diaohist.html

and

http://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream/10092/4085/1/thesis_fulltext.pdf

How blind can people be if they still do not want to see the light when all kinds of information have been presented, and when all know Japan's aggressor status in its past relations and wars with China? Get rid of those loyalties created because you are related to Japan because of family or because you like Japan or live in Japan.

Japan did not claim sovereignty over these islands too between 1945 to 1971

Japan did cede the Ryukyu islands and Diaoyu islands according to the San Francisco Peace Treaty. As a result, the Ryukyu islands and Diaoyu islands were regarded as foreign lands to the Japanese between 1945 to 1971. And Japanese who visited these islands during that period must have their Japanese passport stamped at the Ryukyu immigration. Older generations of Japanese who lived through that period such as chamkun can testify to this fact.

And that is the reason why the Diaoyu islands and Ryukyu islands can't even be found in any map of Japan either published in Japan or other nations in the world between 1945 to 1971 such as these:

http://retromaps.tumblr.com/image/30107477891

http://anu.academia.edu/PedroIacobelli/Papers/1167733/Orientalism_Mass_Culture_and_the_US_Administration_in_Okinawa

US map of 1945 showing Ryukyu Islands as not belonging to any country

China did not counter claim till about 1970 means that the Chinese are too late

That isn't necessary since Japan did not claim sovereignty over these islands too between 1945 to 1971. Anyway, this is what the ROC says about this matter.

http://www.mofa.gov.tw/official/Home/Detail/4ad52054-ebc7-452c-a6c1-d182b25c8001?arfid=2b7802ba-d5e8-4538-9ec2-4eb818179015&opno=027ffe58-09dd-4b7c-a554-99def06b00a1

After the disputes of sovereignty over the Diaoyutai Islands occurred in 1971, Japan claimed that, “From the 28th year of the Meiji Period (1895) till now (1971), no objection from foreign powers had been made to Japan’s use of these islands”. Based on the historical circumstances, this claim is both invalid and misleading. During the period between 1895 and 1945, not only the Diaoyutai Islands, but also the entire island of Taiwan, were subject to Japanese occupation. Given that the Treaty of Shimonoseki of 1895 stipulated that China cedes to Japan “the island of Formosa [Taiwan], together with all the islands appertaining or belonging to the said Island of Formosa [Taiwan]”, China accordingly did not challenge Japanese use of either Taiwan or the Diaoyutai Islands.

Between 1945 and 1972, while the Ryukyu Islands were put under the trusteeship of the United States government, the Diaoyutai Islands were merely subject to US administrative control, which conferred no sovereignty over them. After the war, the people of Taiwan, particularly fishermen, continued to use these islands as in the past without interference. As the Diaoyutai Islands were placed under a system of trusteeship administrated by a temporary Administering Authority, rather than being effectively controlled in the name of a sovereign State, there is no issue concerning explicitly or tacitly recognizing any claim of sovereignty by another state (none existed) over the disputed islands between 1945-1972.

Thus they were not acquired by greed etc.

There are plenty of evidence that proves that the so called terra nullis is just a lie. For example,

http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/19/the-inconvenient-truth-behind-the-diaoyusenkaku-islands/

Following the first on-site survey, in 1885, the Japanese foreign minister wrote, “Chinese newspapers have been reporting rumors of our intention of occupying islands belonging to China located next to Taiwan.… At this time, if we were to publicly place national markers, this must necessarily invite China’s suspicion.…”

In November 1885, the Okinawa governor confirmed “since this matter is not unrelated to China, if problems do arise I would be in grave repentance for my responsibility”.

“Surveys of the islands are incomplete” wrote the new Okinawa governor in January of 1892. He requested that a naval ship Kaimon be sent to survey the islands, but ultimately a combination of miscommunication and bad weather made it impossible for the survey to take place.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/09/19/opinion/global/diaoyu-3/diaoyu-3-blog480.jpg

Japan Diplomatic Records Office.

Letter dated May 12, 1894 affirming that the Meiji government did not repeatedly investigate the disputed islands.

“Ever since the islands were investigated by Okinawa police agencies back in 1885, there have been no subsequent field surveys conducted,” the Okinawa governor wrote in 1894.

After a number of Chinese defeats in the Sino-Japanese War, a report from Japan’s Home Ministry said “this matter involved negotiations with China… but the situation today is greatly different from back then.” The Meiji government, following a cabinet decision in early 1895, promptly incorporated the islands.

Negotiations with China never took place and this decision was passed during the Sino-Japanese War. It was never made public.

In his biography Koga Tatsushiro, the first Japanese citizen to lease the islands from the Meiji government, attributed Japan’s possession of the islands to “the gallant military victory of our Imperial forces.”

Collectively, these official documents leave no doubt that the Meiji government did not base its occupation of the islands following “on-site surveys time and again,” but instead annexed them as booty of war. This is the inconvenient truth that the Japanese government has conveniently evaded.

China and Japan accepted mediation in 1879 and US Grant decided the islands should go to Japan.

The former US president did help to get the negotiation started but he took no official position on the issue and was not involved in the negotiation.

When China tried to help Ryukyu to regain its independence from Japan in the negotiation, Japan tried to bribe China off by offering the Miyako and Yaeyama islands to China but was rejected.

From Resistant Islands: Okinawa Confronts Japan and the United States by Gavan McCormack

"Thus Okinawa was incorporated in a subordinate status within the Japanese state. The new national government in Tokyo regarded the islands as crucial to state defense rather than as integral elements of any national community. This was clear from the readiness they showed, in negotiations with China from 1879, to split the islands either into two, ceding the farthest islands, Miyako and Yaeyama, to China in return for the grant of "most favored nation" trading rights within China itself'. China in response, proposed a three-way split, south to China, north to Japan, with a reinstated Ryukyu Kingdom in the main island. In the end, no agreement was reached.' China only formally acknowledged Japanese sovereignty over the Ryukyu Islands under the Treaty of Shimonoseki in 1895, as part of the settlement of the Sino-Japanese War, which also ceded Taiwan to Japan."

The Senkaku islands are part of the Ryukyu island chain.

They aren't part of the Ryukyu island chain.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Location_of_the_Ryukyu_Islands.JPG

As you can see from the map above, the Diaoyu islands are separated from the Ryukyu island chain by the Ryukyu Trough.

http://www.mofa.gov.tw/official/Home/Detail/4ad52054-ebc7-452c-a6c1-d182b25c8001?arfid=2b7802ba-d5e8-4538-9ec2-4eb818179015&opno=027ffe58-09dd-4b7c-a554-99def06b00a1

The Diaoyutai Islands are situated on the continental shelf in the East China Sea. The depth of the water surrounding the Diaoyutai Islands remains less than 200 meters. However, east of Chiwei Islet lays the 2,717 meter-deep Okinawa Trough, which separates the Diaoyutai Islands from the Ryukyu Islands. Chinese historical records refer to this natural boundary between China and the former Ryukyu Kingdom as heisuigou 黑水溝(Black Water Trough) due to its dark water reflecting the change in sea depth. Geologically, the Okinawa Trough separates the oceanic crust from the continental crust in the East China Sea. Therefore, the Diaoyutai Islands and the Ryukyu Islands reside on different tectonic plates.

Until now the civilian Okinawan population can not decide by themselves about the US military and about peace and prosperity on their Ryukyun archipelago!

True. Since the beginning of the Cold War, the US has regarded the Ryukyus as its military colony and will never give it up.

This is what President Eisenhower said in his State of Union Message in 1954 regarding the Ryukyus/ Okinawa:

"We shall maintain indefinitely our bases in Okinawa. I shall ask the Congress to authorize continued material assistance to hasten the successful con-clusion of the struggle in Indo-china. This assistance will also bring closer the day when the Associated States may enjoy the independence already assured by France. We shall also continue military and economic aid to the Nationalist Government of China."

Wow. Japan pushes back. I'm wondering if they are trying to see how much bite is in China's bark. I'm a bit interested myself.

A dog is always a dog following the order of its owner with no dignity for itself. If the dog does not listen , it is time to teach him a hard lesson no matter how violently it barks and regarding of its owner being USA. Though China has not yet caught up with USA in some respects ,it is strong enough to defend itself in term of nuclear deterrence. The next number 1 economic super power is within China's reach in 10 years while Japan is on the brink of bankrupcy with debts more than double GDP now ,coupled with the consisten threat of volcano eruption putting the whole nation under stake for good.

When China talks lawfully to Japan regarding Diaoyu Islands, it talks nonsense back as demonstrated by many here. When China talks nonsense in the way it does to refute, it comes to talk civilization for a change.No way for a human being to reason with a dog .

Japan is one which knowledges nothing but power and force with no respect for rule of law or civilization, because of which millions of Asians and Americans were slaughtered in Japan's past wars of aggression ,including Nanking massacre depriving 0.3 million Chinese of their lives which most Japanese tried to deny out of fear.

So China must take the dog-beating stick this time together with nuclear warheads , ready to teach the dog in the hard way, otherwise once the right-wing militarism party comes to office,another millions of people will be jeopardized and moreover, Pearl Harbor will be the first attack target a second time if it arms up.

kevininjapan:

The Diaoyu/Senkaku are not part of the Ryukyu island.

You appear to be determined with your views on this. Wondering if you have specific comments on the famous People's Daily article of 1953 (which not only explains these islands as part of Okinawa but also refers to them as "senkaku", for those unaware).

Japan's legal claim and logic always infuriate their neighbours. Japan is a true global player and know how to turn the screws. The key to this argument is how they were awarded to Japan, and everything is in line with International Law. Yet China really has it in for Japan. I would call them ungrateful for all the business Japan has brought to their country. But also we have to know they are letting their nationalists run rampant. I would bargain that 95% of China could care less about these rocks. We don(t see it because it's not newsworthy and isn't in line with the media push in China. Although, the media in Japan has been pretty good in their spin, too, of playing the innocent neigbour - great way to get international support.

I look at China, Taiwan and Japan the same thing until they all calm down and take this matter to the ICJ once and for all so we would not comment much on such issue in the future but instead on "positive" matters as I think people are frustrated with all sorts of mess that is happening nowadays.

@cabadajeSep. 27, 2012 - 02:09PM JST

"To China, holding your ground may be something a nation "wants" to do. To pretty much the rest of the world, it is nothing more than a logical reaction. You find out if land belongs to anyone, you go through official checkpoints, you get your papers in order, and the property is yours. If someone tries to take that property from you, refusing to hand it over and walk away isn't considered force. It's considered Responsibility. When you administer property (such as building, paying taxes, selling, etc), that's responsibility as well. But when you utterly ignore property for the last several thousand years, that isn't considered responsibility in the slightest. And trying to take something that you are not responsible for by force (or the threat of force) is considered a crime."

Maybe the judges of the Guinness World Records should take up the case.

If it is true that these islands had not been found until 1884, it's got be the last discovery of the sort in the East China Sea. It can at least be counted in the 1800s, probably ever.:-)

It is a relief that you take the documentation process so seriously. Now if you also agree that back in the 1800s, nations didn't register their land all in one format, we are set.:-)

@cabadajeSep. 27, 2012 - 02:09PM JST

"Counter?

It didn't even try. It didn't even file a complaint just for the record. Heck, China never even mentioned anything about the islands to anyone ever prior to the 1970s."

May I assume you are familiar with Cairo Declaration and Podsdam Declaration? China claims Diaoyu/Senkaku should have the same status as Taiwan, Manchuria and etc. I am not sure if you know the case put forth by China. Other sources aside, China just published a white paper on it.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2012-09/25/c_131872152.htm

JoeBigs: "Time for Japan to rid itself of Article 9 of the Constitution and arm up."

Yes, let's paint a bigger target on it than there already is.

"China and it's satellite states are thugs that can not be trusted."

Same can be said of Japan, especially when people like Yuri are demanding war, and people like you are saying Japan should 'arm up'. You decry one nation for being 'thugs' but want to be just like them in the end.

Like I said before, regardless of who wins the next race for PM, the first thing they will do while pandering to the public about bolstering strength will be to ask China for a meeting to calm tensions and keep the outsourcing where it is. That will require Japan stands down on the rhetoric, and it will, almost immediately.

@YuriOtaniSep. 27, 2012 - 01:13PM JST

"kevininjapan, Japan turned over Taiwan to China. The Senkaku islands are part of the Ryukyu island chain. The Ryukyu kingdom was made part of Japan. China and Japan agreed to mediation from President US Grant. After much negotiating the Ryukyu Islands were awarded to Japan. Thus they were not acquired by greed etc. Thus they are Japanese by the Potsdam agreement."

Yes, Taiwan was returned. And did you check out why?...Right, because it had been China's. So if China has proof of ownership to Diaoyu/Senkaku prior to 1895 which Japan can not discredit, it should be in the same category as Taiwan.

The Diaoyu/Senkaku are not part of the Ryukyu island.

Geographically it is not. Please do take a(nother) look at the map. What is their relative positions to Okinawa trough? I am not aware Japan has ever brought up that to support their case.

Historically it is not, either. Unless you don't believe the thoroughness of the Japanese goverment in 1879. That it was later grouped together with Okinawa does not matter. I was once assigned to Taiwan too, also by Japan

Okinawa is another can of worms. After WWII, Japanese terriories is supposed to be limited to the four main islands and other island 'we' decide. Have you checked who the 'we' were?:-)

Japan never mentions it, but I remember U.S. didn't return the sovereignty of Okinawa back to Japan. It was never authorized by anyone to have it after WWII. BTW, China has never recognized the San Francisco Treaty. I don't think they said ok to any other US-Japan bilateral agreements on these islands, either.

Good, China can not be trusted with any form of diplomacy.

Time for Japan to rid itself of Article 9 of the Constitution and arm up.

China and it's satellite states are thugs that can not be trusted.

YuriOtani: "alright, Good job Noda-sanma! Now defend Okinawa from the Chinese!" Victory or death!"

So one minute you're asking the Americans to leave and condemning the Ospreys, and the next like most Okinawans you're silent on the base issue, then YOU are calling for war (while safe in the US) and saying the US MUST defend Japan if war breaks out.

Hmmmm....

Noda and Abe are both just trying to score political points on the current issue. Trust me, if Ishihara had never started this whole thing they'd all be trying to pander to the power companies by being vague about the future of nuclear power, while promising to phase it out in 2030 -- no wait, now 2040 -- to pander to the public. Whomever wins will kow-tow to China the minute the election is over and talk about 'how important trade is' and how 'the island row should not get in the way of economics', etc. etc.

Both Japan and China are talking themselves into a war over a few hunks of rock, fishing rights, and an unknown, possibly negligible amount of non renewable resources. It won't be Noda and his cohorts that end up spilling their blood over this, nor the Chinese party leaders with their ridiculously hawkish, outmoded faux-communist posturing.

Its enough, both sides need to grow the heck up and just stop making moves which benefit no one. We are not talking about a national geographical boundary being threatened, and even so the way forwards is with words and compromise, not all this gleeful talk of war and standing up to bullies.

China was too weak to counter the adminstrative claim and transfer of the islands to Japan from USA prior to 70s,but NOT now.

Counter?

It didn't even try. It didn't even file a complaint just for the record. Heck, China never even mentioned anything about the islands to anyone ever prior to the 1970s.

Japan was the agressive cruel thief,pirate and murderer who cliamed millions of lives of Asians and Americans in the past years of invassion

Glass houses. Stones. China.

and received one nuclear warhead thereof from USA.

What part of "Making shit up does not impress anyone" does the PRC propaganda machine not get? Isn't there a Chinese version of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf"?

Now if Japan wanna stand up to China by force,

To China, holding your ground may be something a nation "wants" to do. To pretty much the rest of the world, it is nothing more than a logical reaction. You find out if land belongs to anyone, you go through official checkpoints, you get your papers in order, and the property is yours. If someone tries to take that property from you, refusing to hand it over and walk away isn't considered force. It's considered Responsibility. When you administer property (such as building, paying taxes, selling, etc), that's responsibility as well. But when you utterly ignore property for the last several thousand years, that isn't considered responsibility in the slightest. And trying to take something that you are not responsible for by force (or the threat of force) is considered a crime.

it is time to eat a second round of nuclear strikes and vanish from the planet whereas China could withstand the first strike of any nuclear bombs given its vast range of the territory.

And with this terrible, terrible claim, you have lost all credibility as a reasonable person. That you actually sound proud of it makes it twice as bad.

Dont be naive to assume that USA will come to its side as the latter is also under the threatening spell of Chinese DF-41 and JL-2 and JL-3 missiles capable of hitting anywhere in USA and the world as a whole.

And...you are under the impression that China's military technology has not just caught up to, but surpassed that of the U.S.?

Perhaps you shouldn't be using the word "naive".

timtak:

I wish that the Japanese would stand back and think about fairness in a non legalese, more compromising way.

Fail to understand what you exactly have in mind. The concept of non legalese compromises among nations let alone mature human beings can only be pursued based on foundational trust. This trust may perhaps have existed in 1972. Things may have begun to turn around since the 1989 incident while the business relationship expanded essentially with a life of its own. As we look at today, particularly in a situation where the counterpart is articulately resorting to force, threats and violence, don't think there's much room left if any to consider non legalese compromises for fairness, whatever such compromises may be. Thus seeking legal and judicial help should naturally and undoubtedly become the only fair and peaceful option remaining at all levels. Needless to say, Japan appears to be prepared to similarly bring the northern territory dispute to court if necessary, despite the possibly negative implications thereof.

China was too weak to counter the adminstrative claim and transfer of the islands to Japan from USA prior to 70s,but NOT now. Japan was the agressive cruel thief,pirate and murderer who cliamed millions of lives of Asians and Americans in the past years of invassion and received one nuclear warhead thereof from USA. Now if Japan wanna stand up to China by force, it is time to eat a second round of nuclear strikes and vanish from the planet whereas China could withstand the first strike of any nuclear bombs given its vast range of the territory.

Dont be naive to assume that USA will come to its side as the latter is also under the threatening spell of Chinese DF-41 and JL-2 and JL-3 missiles capable of hitting anywhere in USA and the world as a whole.

Ryukyu holds are the rights over the Senkaku islands. Its last king Sho Tai was forced to relocate to Tokyo by the Meiji government in 1879, and the Shuri monarchy was forcifully abolished. Of course, the Okinawans fought with Japan during WWIi, and one third of its civilian population (around 300000 persons including young girls like the Hime-yuri) were murdered during the battle of Okinawa! Until now the civilian Okinawan population can not decide by themselves about the US military and about peace and prosperity on their Ryukyun archipelago!

kevininjapan, Japan turned over Taiwan to China. The Senkaku islands are part of the Ryukyu island chain. The Ryukyu kingdom was made part of Japan. China and Japan agreed to mediation from President US Grant. After much negotiating the Ryukyu Islands were awarded to Japan. Thus they were not acquired by greed etc. Thus they are Japanese by the Potsdam agreement.

Thomas Anderson Oh and aren't you forgetting that it was Japan that invaded China?

This kind of mixed up issue make the issue more difficult. The issue of Senkaku must be solved under the international law today. Which country invaded China much longer that Japan? If you focus on only this, we will not have any exit.

In order to fix the mistakes from the past, Japan made a formal apology and a lot of Chinese infrastructure, Beijing Airport, Pudong Airport, the main railway lines, power plants, and steel mills were built with Japanese ODA. I talk to Chinese people every once a while, they do not know anything these things but Japan has never apologized. See, it will take other direction.

That is why we must solve the issue to find out the under the international law, who owns it. If any problem China feels now about the teal estate transaction for Senkaku, I suggest that China sue Japan. Not coast guard or military.

they will not respect the ruling that is not favorable on the sovereignty of Senkaku/Daiyou. So your back to square one.

I believe Japan will respect the final verdict fro ICJ. I am pretty sure that Japan will not make any more noise for the result whichever the out come will be. At least Japan is lawful society and generally speaking, majority people live in Japan have a high spirit of compliance. Many Japaneses are angry but Japan has not had ( I do not everything,there could be some incidents.)the destruction what happened in China. The demonstration parade in Tokyo to Chinese Embassy on the other day, I did not hear any illegal actions. I think Japan will accept something unacceptable as long as that comes from ICJ or that kind.

i think it is better each country show the proof why the island belong to them yesterday ,one of chinese people told me ,why china hate the japan so much,he sents me many pictures ,all the pictures about the slaughter,and during the war,japan army killed about total 260000000 normall people in china,

All East Asian countries are too nationalistic to budge an inch. Most of their people are uneducated, unenlightened idiots who vote for similar idiots (if they can). There's no hope for them.

I wish that mother nature would kick everyone's butt.Political bullies on both sides brainwash the brain washables. Share the fricking place.....put a **** meter on the oil drill and share it.No one owns it but Mother M.

! .

What Japan needs right now is Margaret Thatcher as a prime minister!

Okay, we've heard this statement a thousand times. SHOW US THE PROOF that they belong to Japan!

That was why Noda made a speech yesterday at UN to change the current regulation that states that a both countries must agree taking a case to ICJ. Otherwise it will not happen. In this way ICJ can not really function to prevent some situation to escalate to a war. If ICJ should function to solve any international conflict in a civilized manner, the regulation should be changed.

The county which is sued by the other country gets a legal obligation to solve the issue at ICJ. Noda did not mention any name of countries there at UN. But Japan's determination to solve the issue legally.

The documented proof and legal proof will be shown there.

The issue is very simple. PRC is a dictatorship that relies upon nationalism, and anti-Japanese nationalism for the legitimacy of the ruling power. It also has the ability to use extreme positions and negotiating tactics, including fomenting civil unrest strategically knowing it can shut down such unrest brutally at the end. This is the negotiating advantage it has over Japan.

Over the years, Japan knows that it can't do what China does to assert its claim, and has looked at the bigger picture promoting joint development of nearby gasfields and intentionally doing nothing and allowing nothing to be done to the islands. The purpose of this purchase was to continue doing that.

Japan's reasonableness on this issue was taken advantage of by the PRC as a sign of weakness. They expect Japan to try to compromise its way out of the situation, and so expect to be able to win concessions by acting crazy, as they have been the last few weeks.

Noda is right to firm up the line of the government on this. Diplomatically, since PRC is using DPRK diplomatic tactics, Japan really needs to start responding using its DPRK playbook. Hold your line calmly, and ignore. That's common sense for how people deal with mafia in NE Asian countries, and precisely how the CCP and DPRK worker's party need to be dealt with.

After ww2,Japan never abided by the terms of unconditional surrender including the return of all the territories including Diaoyu islands annexed in the past wars of aggression with all its neighbors.

Then China really should have pointed it out at that time. Three decades later, no one cares anymore.

Unlike Germany, Japan never learns or makes a searching reflection on the lessons from the past history.

Can't comment on the reflections of the past, but Japan seems to have learned how to be global player pretty well. They are certainly looking a heck of a lot better than the Chinese right now.

So all in all, Japan, a declining and ageing imperlist country will fail without question in the end,

"Imperialist" refers to countries that have unequal policies regarding economy, culture, or territory. Japan acquired the islands following the rules of the times, they are no territories in their possession (to the best of my knowledge) demanding repatriation, and their economy was considered on of the most stable for a decent period of time. China has multiple territories and people refusing to refer themselves as Chinese, has an absolutely terrible record regarding cultural respect (or human rights), and the economy is so unstable that even though it is currently the world's second largest, businesses all around the world are drawing up contingency plans in the event pulling out of China becomes necessary.

but the lesson this time will be taught by the would-be super-power -China,though many Japanese wont admit their weakness and failure in the face of a rich and rising China vs a debt-ridden Japan.

A lesson that many usually learn by the time they leave primary school is that the power of a bully only extends to the immediate world around them. Once they are cut off from their source of income (lunch money) and can longer use their muscles (there is always someone stronger, either teacher or different bully), that is when it becomes clear just how much respect they really commanded, i.e., none at all. A good bully realizes that he can't support himself, and so tries not to draw attention to his little games. Once focus is on him, he becomes severely limited in his actions.

Without China' market of 1.3 billion population, Japan can not prosper in the future whereas without Japan's tech, China can buy from USA, Germany , and S.Korea who are all quite excited about the current dispute as the unsuspecting winners.

China tends to forget that the reason it is rich is because it is trading with the rest of the world, and the reason it is rising is because they are using technologies and techniques they acquired (I won't go into how they acquired them), but haven't really bothered to understand. China hasn't taken the time and effort to build a self-sustaining infrastructure, and the facade it is showing to the world isn't fooling anyone. China is in just as much danger of collapsing dramatically as Japan. It is a big market, to be sure, but it is hardly the only market, and its value only goes so far. If China becomes more of a nuisance to deal with than it is worth, it will lose its income, and will have little to fall back on. There are other places the world can trade with, but there isn't another world China can trade with if no one trusts it.

@YuriOtaniSep. 27, 2012 - 10:38AM JST maging, will not go into it all but the Potsdam declaration supports Japan. Japan acquired these islands before WWI. Thus according to the Cairo declaration Japan retains them.

Taiwan was taken before WWI, too. And it was used as one of the examples of the territories that had belonged to China.

So the key point is whether you have looked into the evidence shown by China on their ownership before 1895.

Have you?

Japanese envoys in New York said they could see no reason why sovereignty over the islands should be in doubt, but Noda said Japan would be confident of victory if the case were referred to the International Court of Justice.

Then he should proceed along that path, instead of wasting everybody's valuable time...

@gregoryharukoSep. 27, 2012 - 08:15AM JST Why not let the Okinawan people decide what to do with their Senkaku islands

It was not theirs to begin with. Japan annexed Ryukyu in 1879, but didn't 'discover' Diaoyu/Senkakus until 1884.

No compromise Mr Noda?

Well, get your boys out of the convienience stores and hair salons and into uniform!

insisted Wednesday there could be no compromise with China on the ownership of a disputed island chain and denounced attacks on Japanese interests.

LOL. Of course he has to say that. All this incident has done is prove that he is so weak a PM, and Japan's central government so weak and rudderless, that a loose-canon MAYOR like Ishihara can cause a major international crisis with Japan's largest trading power. A country that Hatoyama, the DPJ's initial PM, was cozying-up to just 18 or so months ago. Japan, as usual, has been totally reactive in this incident and Japan, and imporatantly, the export-dependent Japan Inc. are suffering as a result. Shameful for the world's third largest economy.

Now the issue's of the Island true ownership is so complicated to interprete for Japan.

Noda say “It is not a new ACQUISITION. It was held under the private ownership of a Japanese citizen and was a TRANSFER of ownership within Japanese law,”

This is part of my conversation with my Japanese friend and a businessman yesterday noon coffee break..

Is it true that the Japanese citizens who owns a certain commercial or industrial lots doing business who went bankrupt without paying taxes-due to the gov't will just sold their property, TRANFER and be ACQUISITION to your gov't without any liability as TAX EVADER after more than a half century? And the gov't instead buy that commercial or industrial lots? My Japanese friend again shake his head............and jokingly say. You sold all your property here, close down your factory and go to Japan to purchase commercial lots and build your own business there .....and try your luck there. And he call me BIG NUT's and we continue with another cup of coffee...........

While I posted the above, I need to add another important issue I would like to suggest to Japanese business leaders.

Please examine American business models dealing with China for risk avoiding strategy.. I've already noticed the difference.

I think the issue is not government instigated riots from the government, its workers in China who are subjected to low wages and poor working conditions from foreign investors who profit a lot from cheap production costs. ONces these workers receive a signal as an excuse for them to react, they just go crazy to vent their anger of low wages and poor working conditions.

Just to propose a different point of view around some comments already made:

likening China's claim to the UK claiming the U.S. is really not that far fetched. The French can then join in and claim the rest and Canada at the same time. Or maybe the native Americans should stand up. China is really claiming all of the South China sea right now. No governement of any South East Asian country can afford to compromise because they will keep pushing. Nor can any Japanese party running in the next elections afford to look weak.

comparison with the Germans is interesting but not the way some people think. You don't see them claiming Alsace Lorraine back. For that matter, they have worked very well with the French and the English in the past few decades. Why aren't Asian nations capable of doing the same one should ask. My guess is simple: while Germany, France and England are very similar and equivalent democratic societies, China is nowhere close to the level of Japan.

Noda has been reading different books to me.

But Maqing

After ww2,Japan never abided by the terms of unconditional surrender including the return of all the territories including Diaoyu islands annexed in the past wars of aggression with all its neighbors.

Splitting hairs perhaps, but Japan argues that they claimed the "Senkakus" as terra nullis. Yes they did it at the same time as (or "under cover of") war, but they claim it is not a spoil of war, was separate from their invasion of Taiwan and was merely an innocent claim of an uninhabited island, which one can do according to the rules of international law. The fact that it was at the same time as a war (or immediately after?) does not they say, effect the legal situation of it being fairly claimed uninhabited land. If is was separate to the war, means that it was not referenced by Potsdam. And the fact that China did not counter claim till about 1970 means that the Chinese are too late, again by "international law" which accords rights to those that administrate. So, this is a thorny issue. If one retroactively applies "International Law" (really in 1985 it was Western Law, since the Chinese did not at that time agree) retroactively, the Japanese have a good case. This is why the Japanese are offering to take the case to the International Courts (imho).

And there are good Chinese written papers arguing that even under international law as it is now, there is no basis for applying the law retroactively. So perhaps one day the Chinese can even win in court but, probably not now. That is why Noda is not an outright imperialist fool to be saying what he is saying here to the UN. He has good lawyers on his side.

The issue at stake is was this "international law" fair, and "international" at the time. I think not. And in any event, I wish that the Japanese would stand back and think about fairness in a non legalese, more compromising way.

I am glad he had a gut to do this at UN. Now this is a legal world public record. The job well done, Noda.

I say turn it into a hotel/casino. And maybe throw in a wedding chapel restricted to use by Chinese/japanese marriages.

No nationality, no taxes.

Getting back to Noda. It's unfortunate that in the next election there is no real choice. LDP are all hawks, Noda is being tough, and of course hashimoto will be the strongest.

It'd be interested to have a party with a completely different stance on the issue.

maging, will not go into it all but the Potsdam declaration supports Japan. Japan acquired these islands before WWI. Thus according to the Cairo declaration Japan retains them.

After ww2,Japan never abided by the terms of unconditional surrender including the return of all the territories including Diaoyu islands annexed in the past wars of aggression with all its neighbors.Unlike Germany, Japan never learns or makes a searching reflection on the lessons from the past history. So all in all, Japan, a declining and ageing imperlist country will fail without question in the end,but the lesson this time will be taught by the would-be super-power -China,though many Japanese wont admit their weakness and failure in the face of a rich and rising China vs a debt-ridden Japan.

Without China' market of 1.3 billion population, Japan can not prosper in the future whereas without Japan's tech, China can buy from USA, Germany , and S.Korea who are all quite excited about the current dispute as the unsuspecting winners.

Oh and aren't you forgetting that it was Japan that invaded China?

It would be like the Germans saying "Ve vill never let ze English and ze French and ze Poles invade us!" Unbelievable... You know the Japanese people really do sound like the neo-Nazis in Germany...

alright, Good job Noda-sanma! Now defend Okinawa from the Chinese!" Victory or death!

Put a lighthouse on an island there and make it a sovereign nation.

Problem solved...........

Good that Noda is calling upon other nations to agree to bring all territorial matters to the ICJ, which appears to be a fair and perhaps the only peaceful solution available.

Good job Japan!--Don't take $h|+ from a bully.

Geez... is someone playing for political points that an anti-China rightist got elected for LDP leadership?

@Ronald Stark, I think your comment was very good! And this is not one of those crummy yahoo blogs with no moderators, here at JT, as far as I can tell, we can comment with out stooping down to low blows against others here posting there comments. Anyway, JAPAN has to COMPROMISE, this is not the Dai Nippon Teikoko of the 1930s etc..now CHINA is way too big, strong, $$$$, Japan is only getting smaller and smaller and so much $$$ is leaving Japan for China etc..

Noda's reaction to all this has been so far right, I think: ignore China's outcry. It's as if he's saying, "Do whatever you like, China, yeah, smash it, come on, scream! We shan't budge."

Now look China is getting out of breath.

sfjp330, remember, this is a discussion forum, there is no need to insult the comments of others when making a point.

Why not let the Okinawan people decide what to do with their Senkaku islands and with the 50000+ US military soldiers on the Ryukyun archipelago, since no politician in Tokyo or in Beijing or in Washington is clever enough to solve the problem! Only the Sho dynasty kings of the Ryukyun Kingdom have proven 500 years ago how to be peaceful and prosperous!

Ronald F Stark Sep. 27, 2012 - 07:51AM JST Stake your claims with PROOF and take it to the ICJ for resolution.

We already know this many times over. What a worthless comment. What can ICJ do? ICJ means nothing. Regardless if Japan and China went to ICJ, there is no guarantee that loser of the case will not follow the ruling that was not in their favor. Nobody is going to enforce the ruling anyway. So what does it matter? What is important the most for Japanese or Chinese politicians is the public opinion, and they will not respect the ruling that is not favorable on the sovereignty of Senkaku/Daiyou. So your back to square one.

I am not sure what there is to negotiate anyways. Neither side will admit they are wrong and personally I think that the USA handing those islands over to Okinawa seals the deals paperwork wise. China ancient claims are bogus as in another article I pointed out that China that exists today was not even a country until after WWII.

Neither side CAN compromise because that would require someone in charge who can exercise sound judgement and leadership and not have to worry about kissing the asses of his faction and party.

“So far as the Senkaku islands are concerned, they are an integral part of our territory in the light of history and of international law,”

Okay, we've heard this statement a thousand times. SHOW US THE PROOF that they belong to Japan! I don't really care who gets the rocks but I'm tired of these useless vowel-movements from worthless politicians in both countries. Stake your claims with PROOF and take it to the ICJ for resolution.

Are these self serving politicians (on all sides) really trying to start a war over some uninhabited rocks in the ocean.

The public in all countries are being manipulated with a game of political football..

All this talk of no compromise is going to put us all in a bad bad place.

Answer is simple if no-one can offer a real solution, go to no-one and are off limits all all the countries involved.

Its 2012 people not be beginning of last century where some of the most horrible things in human history occurred.

Negotiation with China will not work. Japan should stop negotiating with China. The Japanese businesses that were damaged in China are independent companies and they are not related to dispute in anyway between the goverments. When Chinese goverment instigate in destroying foreign companies, China has a problem. Who is next target? U.S. or European companies operating inside China? Do you want your mobs to take over each time rules of China doesn't go your way? What a way to run a primitive goverment.