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Okinawan governor determined to press U.S. to move base off island

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By Elaine Lies

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We heard this last week, no need to keep stirring the pot is there?

-11 ( +4 / -15 )

press the us base not usa in their own country. or otherwise no logic in geting ur work done.

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

The US military objects to moving the bases out of Okinawa. Governor Onaga will have to use the same tactics used by the anti-Vietnam-War protesters to make the Vietnam War very unpopular among US voters. He needs to appeal to the American people. He needs to publicize the cause and plight of the people of Okinawan with the help of major US networks like ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, PBS, New York times, Los Angeles Times, etc.

The right-wing US Republican Party have a simple majority in the US Senate and the US house of Reps and are unlikely to be sympathetic to his cause.. The Democratic Party "may be" more sympathetic. I wish him success.

3 ( +8 / -5 )

"The United States and Japan agreed in 1996 to close the Futenma base, located in a populous part of the island."

Herein lies the problem. The Okinawan people had no voice in the selection of the new location.

The Marines should be relocated to Guam or elsewhere.

8 ( +13 / -5 )

People of all works of life, young and old, crossing party lines and ideological differences, are behind him. Let Tokyo and Washington learn what real democracy means. Okinawa will overcome.

11 ( +12 / -1 )

This small percentage of media controlling politicians are seeking more money for their pockets here on Okinawa. Governor Onaga and his cohorts are greedy. If an American does anything wrong the media seek to exploit it. I've lived on Okinawa for over 35 years and the Onaga's party could have moved Futenma years ago.

-7 ( +4 / -11 )

At last, a real Japanese (well Okinawan) politician!

Someone who is not scared to say "no," to represent his people and do anything necessary to get the product.

Onaga is also a brilliant speaker who doesn't need a scriptwriter. He is quite capable of standing up and delivering a speech off the bat that holds people's attention.

He should be PM in place of Abe.

0 ( +10 / -10 )

True Okinawa, you sound like an American. Try and understand that the American government is out to destroy some of the most precious coral reef in the world. The people of Okinawa do not want a new base. More forcing of this base will bring about calls to close them all. The people of Okinawa want their island back from the tyranny of the American Base.

-1 ( +13 / -14 )

“A country that wants to be a leader of Asia, a leader of the world ... well, if they can’t protect human rights, equality and democracy for their own people, I don’t think they can really be a leader.”

Huh? What does this mean?

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Yuri, explain to us how the "Okinawan people" do not want the US Bases when about 47% of registered voters actually voted in the last two elections. The anti-base faction does not even represent 1/3rd of the Prefecture's population. Despite what the Ryukyu Shimpo spoon feeds people, the reality is that the anti-base side is a minority and the majority of Okinawans do not care either way.

-9 ( +4 / -13 )

@Frederic: The Marines should be relocated to Guam or elsewhere.

''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Guam and Hawaii refused. Quantico is too far and Huntington beach is not interested in expanding Camp Pendleton. Iwakuni? Abe is not interested to expand Marine base in his own turf Prefecture. US lawmkers and people are not aware Japan pay more than 2 billion dollars a year and they don;t know why US bases are in Japan. So if Onaga is careful, he might succeed. But I think he will be ignored by media.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

YuriOtani has not yet learned that there are politicians that say things just to get votes OR she herself has is a politician trying to get votes. Either way she is completely confused about the definition of the word "tyranny". But I would like to hear her opinion on why the Japanese government is totally ignoring what happened at Fukushima and has done nothing to protect those people affected by the problem with the nuclear reactor there. Maybe that is all part of an American Imperialist Policy too? LOL. ... Remember the old saying, those with the loudest voices, usually know the least.

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

Yelnats (May 21,2015 - 08:53AM JST):

The Abe government wants to make Japan's presence felt on the world stage. He wants Japan to be respected and trusted in Asia and the world community. For example, he wants Japan to become a permanent member of the UN Security Council.

Onaga questioned if that would be possible while it was trampling on "human rights, equality and democracy" for its own people.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

I hope the U.S. leaves too. Tired of the ''We are so burdened" act. Let them defend themselves.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

@nicholus: why the Japanese government is totally ignoring what happened at Fukushima and has done nothing to protect those people affected by the problem with the nuclear reactor there. Maybe that is all part of an American Imperialist Policy too?

So you did not know that Japanese Govt already paid amount to rescue the victims to each affected prefecture years ago.

Why are you telling Yuri about something else you are ignorant that has nothing to do with above article?

3 ( +3 / -0 )

@Frederic Bastiat

The Marines should be relocated to Guam or elsewhere.

Guam is too far away to serve as a "tripwire", and the distance slows our response times to crises in Asia.

Personally, I think the bulk of the Marines should be based out of Sasebo in Kyushu. It's a large naval facility that's been in use for over a century, currently by both the JSDF and the US as a logistics hub. Kyushu also is sparsely populated and offers excellent terrain for training areas. Like Okinawa, it's still located fairly close to Taiwan, Korea, and mainland China.

I would keep some parts of Camp Hansen, particularly the Jungle Warfare Training Center and weapons ranges. I'd turn Kadena into a Joint Base by basing the Marine Ospreys and other helicopters there, including the Army stuff @ Torii Station. Kadena has plenty of land area that serves no operational military purpose (such as the golf course). Use that space for Marine Corps and Army aviation facilities. Oh, and upgrade all the aircraft hangars with hardened shelters too.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Okinawan governor determined to press U.S. to move base off island

I wish him well. Ganbare Onaga-san

4 ( +6 / -2 )

@ CyburneticTiger MAY. 21, 2015 - 09:47AM JST

Yuri, explain to us how the "Okinawan people" do not want the US Bases when about 47% of registered voters actually voted in the last two elections.

Your information is wrong, it was over 64% that voted. Of that 51.7% voted for Onaga.

The anti-base faction does not even represent 1/3rd of the Prefecture's population.

Again pure misinformation. All polls conducted show that at least 75% or more of the Okinawan population oppose the "relocation" of Futenma to Henoko. A similar number wants drastically less or no US military at all in Okinawa. And it is not only the polls that show us how Okinawans think about the US base issue...

Despite what the Ryukyu Shimpo spoon feeds people, the reality is that the anti-base side is a minority and the majority of Okinawans do not care either way.

To make such blatantly off the mark statements means you are either completely disconnected from the Okinawan reality or you are purposely trying to spread misinformation.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

You want them gone? Not gonna happen Gov...but complain away and good luck.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

This particular issue is very complex but what stands out in my mind is that when thee U.S. occupation of Japan was going on they agreed to leave the country when Japan could defend itself. We are now way beyond that point. The United States should have been gone off of Okinawan.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

I am not really going to comment or take a position on the Okinawa base issue. However, given that this article is about Onaga's visit to the U.S. and his attempts to persuade the U.S. to rethink the Okinawa base issue, I am providing a link to a piece that was prepared for the U.S. Congess in the latter part of last year.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/R42645.pdf

Since probably whose opinion matters most in the U.S. is the Congress, in addition to the Department of Defense, I think this does a good job of outlining their current thinking and stance. At least to some degree, although the '14 elections have changed the leadership in the Senate.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Cyburnetic Tiger, try walking in someone elses shoes for a time. During my childhood the Americans ran Okinawa with an iron fist. The censored or Okinawa people hired to act as police were very brutal. My families farm was stolen from us by gun toting American troops. Americans treated all women like prostitutes and try to buy me before puberty. My family in the late 50's had the honor of going threw the American garbage. I often went hungry because the American masters did not pay well.

So you tell me the Okinawa elections are not valid? Your numbers are not valid, not even close. If an election was held today to determine the fate of the US bases it will be by overwhelming numbers to close them all.

Nicholas Tee, gee do you think I can win election? Maybe I should run on this platform. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryukyu_independence_movement#/media/File:Ryukyu_independence_flag.svg

2 ( +8 / -6 )

Okinawan governor determined to press U.S. to move base off island

An irresistible force (the US and their lackey government in Tokyo) meets an immovable object. (Onaga)

4 ( +5 / -1 )

At last, a real Japanese (well Okinawan) politician!

Pretty low standard for a "real" politician.

Someone who is not scared to say "no," to represent his people and do anything necessary to get the product.

You have either a short memory or literally were not on island the last time a governor here said "no", Okinawa suffered through nearly 15 years of recession.

Onaga is also a brilliant speaker who doesn't need a scriptwriter. He is quite capable of standing up and delivering a speech off the bat that holds people's attention.

Anyone compared to Nakaima would be considered "brilliant" , your use of superlatives to describe average is pretty amusing.

He should be PM in place of Abe.

Doesn't even fit in the realm of reality, nor fantasy either, ludicrous is more like it for to many reasons to count.

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

@zone2surf

That's an informative link you posted, thanks.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

clueless (May. 21, 2015 - 12:38PM JST),

Could you explain why you think Futenma's function will not go away from Okinawa? Unless you do, you're like a wild lion roaring and frightening small animals..

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

You want them gone? Not gonna happen Gov...but complain away and good luck.

don't worry about answering (non)voice, you are on the spot here, as long as the national government keeps the current security agreement in place Okinawa is going to keep on hosting bases.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

@Noble713,

Glad you found it useful. In all of the back and forth between readers, I have learned a few things from information that readers have posted, whether on this topic or others. And that is a good thing.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I hope the U.S. leaves too. Tired of the ''We are so burdened" act. Let them defend themselves.

@Mocheake. Agree with you. Japan's SDF is able to defend. Its about time they "handle their own business".

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Wc626,

Japan's SDF is able to defend.

Don't know if anybody's noticed.

Ain't nobody attacking.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

Fine, but look where it got the Philippines.

Search images.google.com for 'spratly island construction', the Chinese are fairly well along in construction of their new bases, and that is 'bases', plural.

Philippines' reaction is to plead with China to enter mediation.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

and in an important location in the region that keeps problems at bay because of the presence of the US as well.

As to whether the military presence there really has the effect you claim, we shall agree to disagree

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Yubaru

National government is puppet and technically broke. Japanese national debt is 240 percent of GDP and keep footing multi billions for bases.If there is default against creditors, who will keep buying the J bond? if there is no alternative funding, who will pay the bills for bases? Obviously not you.

Philippines national government did not want IUS bases to leave from Clark and Subic. However Marines had to pack their bags. One factor was local resentment. One factor was divine intervention of Volcanic eruption. If they go back there there are not much land space for them now.

Nothing lasts forever. Bases will not last forever. They may be shut down because of lack of funding or natural disaster. Something in life is beyond our control.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

If Okinawans as a whole want the bases gone, then all businesses could just boycott doing any business or serving anybody who works directly for the bases, both foreign and local alike. Do that and either the military staffed there will push for relocation...or the locals working there will push back to protect their jobs.

My guess is that we'll never see that happen. As much as people like to moan, they also like to get paid and feed their families. Expect that if the bases and all of the jobs they represent pack up and leave, local Okinawans will change their position on this quick, fast, and in a hurry.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Ain't nobody attacking.

And the obvious reason why is sitting directly on bases in Okinawa. Talk to the PI about what is off their coast and there is nothing they can do to stop it on their own.

Military's exist for a reason, and not after the fact either.

Kind of hard to defend some place once you are already speaking another language.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

"He told a news conference in Tokyo that he would tell those he meets in Washington that ignoring the wishes of the Okinawan people would harm the reputation of both countries"

Actually, it's his policies that are hurting, and obvious vote-grabbing, that is what is hurting the relations between neighbours. It doesn't harm the reputation of Japan because the alliance with the US is cornerstone in Japan's defense. It doesn't hurt the reputation of the US because Japan values their presence. It only harms reputations in two ways: 1) it hurts the image of Okinawans, who are more and more seen as just people who want the government handouts for the prefecture, but not the reason for the money (ie. hosting the bases), 2) it harms the image of the US in the minds of said Okinawans, who, since they have a bad reputation due to their actions don't mean squat on the world, or even domestic, stage. They can't possibly say it will hurt Japan's reputation because Okinawa is part of Japan, and living up to their promise to relocate and keep the Americans on bases in Okinawa would only be seen as positive to Japan -- which Okinawa is a part.

So, the only one hurting anyone's reputation here is Onaga, plain and simple, and using tax money from the government to do it too, I might add.

YuriOtani: "The people of Okinawa do not want a new base."

That's why they're staying in the old one until Okinawans live up to their agreement and stop reneging. And why should we take pity on you for your supposed experiences, Yuri? You said yourself you don't feel any pity for WWII vets who talked about their horrible abuse in POW camps at the hands of Imperial Japan, and how they want this addressed properly in history, and don't like the way Abe is changing history -- and you cheered Abe on and said you don't give a damn. So why should everyone feel sorry about the claims of what happened to you, even if they are true? That was history! You should forget it and no one should apologize, right? If your ancestors had not been Japanese and engaged in the war, none of what you claim happened after would have. All of the horrible things that happened to Okinawans are the result of the Japanese government. Now, many years later, Okinawa was graciously given back to Japan -- the US didn't HAVE to give it back, you know -- and the two are living in harmony and Japan under the US' defense. Okinawa is safe thanks to the brave men and women in the US military and its machinery in joint work with Japan's military and the machinery they buy off the US. You should be thanking them.

-4 ( +3 / -7 )

Okinawa has always been a victim of it's geographical location throughout history. If the Communists hadn't ousted the KMT from China in 1948, or the Soviets created North Korea, perhaps the US would have no need for an East Asian presence. And likewise Japan would have no need to have a US presence on it's soil, But that's not what happened. No doubt many Okinawans would like US bases to be gone. But they way the world is going they would probably be simply replaced by JSDF bases.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

"The people of Okinawa do not want a new base."

She is caught up in the misinformation that the media keeps pumping out. It is NOT anew base, and anyone that thinks otherwise is blind to reality.

It is an extension of an existing base, not a "new" base.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

But of course Bertie. It's just very responsible to be ready, able and willing to defend.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

@ smithinjapan MAY. 21, 2015 - 08:48PM JST

it hurts the image of Okinawans, who are more and more seen as just people who want the government handouts for the prefecture, but not the reason for the money (ie. hosting the bases),

Tell us who's the one who want's government handouts? Until you specify and corroborate your wired accusations against Okinawans in general I would just call them baseless and insulting claptrap.

So, the only one hurting anyone's reputation here is Onaga, plain and simple, and using tax money from the government to do it too, I might add.

You might have missed the fact that Onaga was elected by taxpayers to represent them so that he's using tax-money is completely reasonable and non of your business to judge.

That's why they're staying in the old one until Okinawans live up to their agreement and stop reneging.

Please tell us exactly which agreement are you talking about? From my knowledge there is absolutely no comprehensive agreement with any Okinawan elected official about moving Futenma to Henoko. Okinawans were not once consulted about the whole relocation issue and Tokyo knew exactly why, because Okinawans would oppose it.

I suppose you are referring to the approval to reclaimed land by Nakaima? That was by no way an agreement of the Okinawan people in regard to the relocation.

Okinawa is safe thanks to the brave men and women in the US military

You might be talking for your self here, but please leave it up to the Okinawan people how they want to feel save. They have their very own experiences about being "safely" protected by a powerful military force, a horrifying experience that cost them nearly a quarter of their civilian population and completely devastated their islands.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

bam_boo: "Tell us who's the one who want's government handouts? Until you specify and corroborate your wired accusations against Okinawans in general I would just call them baseless and insulting claptrap."

Okinawa had it's funding cut not long ago for blocking the advancement of construction on the agreed upon base, correct? This is one of the reasons Nakaima changed his tune on the relocation. Quite a number of people complained about the government cutting funding to the poorest of the prefectures -- that it should not be cut simply because they don't want to house the military (why should they get it if they do not?) so there.

"You might have missed the fact that Onaga was elected by taxpayers to represent them so that he's using tax-money is completely reasonable and non of your business to judge."

It IS my business, since I pay taxes in Japan, and he is using tax money. If he were going with honorable intentions and had a chance of changing things, it might not be a waste. As it stands, he is going, in his own words, to "DEMAND" the US pull out their troops, and accuse them and Japan (which he forgets he's part of) of ruining reputations and relations, etc. etc., all to a group of government officials who are quite keen on Japan's new strategies for increasing relations between the militaries, including weapons sales, joint research and defense, and increased presence, and whom AT BEST will smile politely and sending him back home. You want to talk about 'claptrap'?

"They have their very own experiences about being "safely" protected by a powerful military force, a horrifying experience that cost them nearly a quarter of their civilian population and completely devastated their islands."

They were part of Japan, and took part in the war that Japan brought to them. Many also fought in it. I don't deny they suffered horribly, same as many across Asia suffered horribly at their hands (they are part of Japan, after all). Since then, with the American presence there, they have not suffered any more war, and Japan has experienced peace.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Back in 2005, the plan for Henoko was not a massive new base with twin 1.7 kilometre runways stretching out into Oura Bay. We were told it was going to be a "heliport."

Helicopters don't need 3.4 kllometres of runway to take off and land. Somewhere along the line, the plan got massively changed.

Or were they lying to us all the time?

This makes interesting reading. It could have been written yesterday:

http://www.uchinanchu.org/uchinanchu/072605_action_henoko.htm

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

@smithinjapan

The Ryukyu Islands enjoyed many hundred years of peace both independent from any super-power and under Japanese protection.

Meanwhile, the USA used them as a launchpad to wage war across SE Asia ... leaving a legacy of unexploded ordnance and toxic chemical dumps (Agent Orange etc).

Okinawa was the Pentagon’s prime launchpad for the US conquest of Southeast Asia. Many of the island’s current problems date back to this era

So much for the influence of that great "democratic" power ... its excluded the right for the Okinawans to elect the person who governed them.

Not protected either the constitutions of the U.S. or Japan, the Pentagon exploited the situation they created to stockpile a vast arsenal of chemical weapons and atomic warheads and build more than 80 installations stealing land and turning the entire island was a base.

The Pentagon had also used Okinawa to stage the 1950-53 Korean War.

To say your response is somewhat disingenuous ... would be the understatement of the day.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Okinawa had it's funding cut not long ago for blocking the advancement of construction on the agreed upon base, correct?

Correct. Okinawans knew that voting for Onaga could mean budget cuts and still voted for him. So who's then is asking for government handouts?

To your information, Okinawa being the "poorest" prefecture in Japan, with the by far heaviest burden in regard to hosting US military, is not even at the top in regard to government subsidies. Including all subsidies Okinawa prefecture is apparently at the 6th position of all prefectures as for per capita government money, so it is simply not true that Okinawa is receiving loads of money for hosting US bases. Other prefectures get more without hosting US bases.

So just stop those baseless allegations or provide us with factual information to corroborate your claims.

It IS my business, since I pay taxes in Japan, and he is using tax money.

Then he's using your tax money, but you couldn't elect him unless you are Japanese citizen, which I suppose you are not. So you should start with complaining that you have absolutely no say in what happens with your tax money as a foreigner.

A majority of the Okinawan taxpayers elected Onaga and unless you or somebody else provides credible information that he's misusing funds I would say he's doing just what he was elected for, to represent his constituency.

They were part of Japan, and took part in the war that Japan brought to them.

Are you aware of the fact that Okinawa was annexed by Japan in the 1870ies? They were by no means part of Japan on their own free will and Okinawans were anything but warmongering.

I find accusing Okinawans of being an active part of a belligerent and militarist Japan is ridiculous. In my eyes, and I believe most historians would share that view, Okinawans were really unlucky in regard to how 19th and 20th century history turned out for them.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Yubaru (May. 21, 2015 - 09:06PM JST)

It is an extension of an existing base, not a "new" base.

Camp Schwab currently accommodates Combat Assault Battalion, Ammo Company, 3rd Reconnaissance Battalion and 4th Marine Regiment. If Futenma's function were to be moved here, it'd be a completely new base with two V-shaped runways added, where 100 Ospreys are said to be deployed, as well as 274-meter pier attached, where the USS Bonhomme Richard assault ship can easily berth. It will also be equipped with a tilted access for hovercraft to go to and come from maneuvering in the sea.

So can one call this simply an extension of an old base, as Yubaru says?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

I strongly agree with Bamboo for Okinawans should have rights for involving the decision making about base relocation and environment issues. After all they are tax payers of Japan too. If they have no rights, they are being treated as slaves.

Nepalese citizens are receiving handouts of food and medicine for disaster relief. Although they are broke, poor and hungry, Nepalese government have control over disaster relief from other nations. They are not paying any cent or centi meter of land for receiving aids. No one is lecturing or hectoring Nepalese people.

They can demand US or UK for not using certain type of air crafts or not flying low density near designed area. They can postpone the operation. If Okinawans have no control over any issue of their Island, they better become Nepalese citizens.

Better poor and hungry rather than being insulted, humiliated and bullied by foreign expats of Okinawa Gurus. After all Okinawans are Japanese citizens and human being. They should be respected and treasured.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

He should wait until after GOP Primary is over. He can skip GOP who will definitely not be US Pres, Because betting on US Pres election is illegal, we can not find who he should talk about his wish in base emptying plan. .

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@bam_boo

Accusing all Japanese of being an active part of "a belligerent and militarist Japan" is absolutely ridiculous.

They plainly were not and it would be good to remember.

However, the Japanese militarists did do a good job of loosen the Western Imperialist's grip of East Asia, which was not a bad thing. It's just a shame Asia lost much of that advantage to fall under America's militarist aggression.

If you speak to old Okinawa's they will remind you of how they were used, at a $1 day, to play act as Asian village victims in preparation for America's assault on the rest of East Asia.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Press your own Government.... the U.S. is in Okinawa only at the invitation of the Govt of Japan.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

@smithinjapan "Okinawa is safe thanks to the brave men and women in the US military..You should be thanking them."

You should realize how insulting it sounds for people of Okinawa especially after all those crimes, committed by U.S. servicemen on the island. Besides, this kind of boring korean lip service in favor of USA does not represent true will of Okinawans. If you feel so great love to Americans and the USA, speak only for yourself, please.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

@bam_boo

Are you aware of the fact that Okinawa was annexed by Japan in the 1870ies? They were by no means part of Japan >on their own free will..." "...Okinawans were really unlucky in regard to how 19th and 20th century history turned out for them."

The moral of the story is clear: don't surrender your sovereignty to expansionist military powers. It will NEVER end well, and you will NEVER get your sovereignty back. Unless you intend to fight and kill for it, which the Okinawans clearly aren't willing to do.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Camp Schwab currently accommodates Combat Assault Battalion, Ammo Company, 3rd Reconnaissance Battalion and 4th Marine Regiment. If Futenma's function were to be moved here, it'd be a completely new base with two V-shaped runways added, where 100 Ospreys are said to be deployed, as well as 274-meter pier attached, where the USS Bonhomme Richard assault ship can easily berth. It will also be equipped with a tilted access for hovercraft to go to and come from maneuvering in the sea.

Yes that's true, and the base is being extended with the landfill project, it is NOT a totally new base just and extension of and existing one, and which will incorporate the units that will move.

Stop being blinded by the left-wing press/media folks.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Yubaru,

Futenma doesn't have such function and facilities as mentioned and so it is the construction of a new base in the name of the relocation of an old, dilapidated base.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Don't know if anybody's noticed. Ain't nobody attacking.

Yet? Apparently, you haven't noticed what China is building in the straits, but Of course China is wants to have a beautiful harmonious relationship with Japan.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Yubaru, again.

Can you tolerate such stupidity in which your tax money will be squandered for a foreign army? Just think about what the U.S. taxpayers would say if they were obliged to do the same.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

voiceofokinawa May. 22, 2015 - 06:42AM JST Can you tolerate such stupidity in which your tax money will be squandered for a foreign army? Just think about what the U.S. taxpayers would say if they were obliged to do the same.

Squandered for a foreign army? If you didn't know, the Japanese taxpayer is getting a bargain. Let's see, Japan's expenditure in defense is a meager 1 percent of GDP for how many decades? Compare that to U.S. that is close to 4 percent, and UK at 2.3, France 2.2, Germany 1.4. In reality, Japan should contribute more to defense that is in line with other nations. If U.S. left Japan, the Japanese defense expenditure will increase by 10 percent a year for many decades to catch up. Maybe it's time for Japan to defend themselve and pay their own way.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Futenma doesn't have such function and facilities as mentioned and so it is the construction of a new base in the name of the relocation of an old, dilapidated base.

You don't seem to understand the fact that Camp Schwab is where the extension is taking place. The landfill will be "new", that's a no brainer, but it is NOT an entirely new base. That should be plain to see for any intelligent person, it's the press that is playing up the news that a "new" base is being built. It's not, in fact it's a lie, and people are swallowing it, including you and others it seems.

So facilities get upgraded, nothing new there, happens all the time.

Can you tolerate such stupidity in which your tax money will be squandered for a foreign army? Just think about what the U.S. taxpayers would say if they were obliged to do the same.

This is where I stop responding to you here, comments like these are born from emotion and not from an intelligent thought process. The world would be in chaos if it followed your trends of thought.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

yamashi May. 22, 2015 - 04:32AM JST You should realize how insulting it sounds for people of Okinawa especially after all those crimes, committed by U.S. servicemen on the island

There is a perception of high number of crimes committed by U.S. military, dependent and civilian personnel. However, the per capita crime rate for U.S. personnel in Okinawa is lower than that of the local populace.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

sfjp330,

The U.S.'s defense expenditure is 4 percent of its GDP while Japan's is "a meager 1 percent" so that it's alright for Japan to profligate money for the U.S. military?

Have you forgotten the fact that Japan is still under military occupation by the U.S., that maintains 88 bases across the breadth and length of it, making one area its formidable military colony? Before saying Japan should increase its military spending to help them, the U.S. must address the status quo of Japan, Okinawa in particular, as its military colony in the first place.

To our chagrin, the U.S. has no intention for it at all. The recalcitrant attitude of Washington towards the Futenma issue clearly shows that.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

@Luce-A MAY. 22, 2015 - 02:12AM JST

@bam_boo Accusing all Japanese of being an active part of "a belligerent and militarist Japan" is absolutely ridiculous. They plainly were not and it would be good to remember.

Nobody is accusing "all Japanese"... can't you distinguish between talking about a nation and talking about individuals?

However, the Japanese militarists did do a good

Disgusting right-wing propaganda. The "Japanese militarist" did do no good job at all! They are responsible for the death of over 20 million Asians and devastated large parts of Asia. Asian nations felt absolutely no "help" from Japan and to claim so is highly insulting.

@Yubaru MAY. 22, 2015 - 07:43AM JST

What is being planned in Henoko is without doubt a completely new military facility and if one calls it a new military base or an extension is of marginal importance.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

The relocation of base has been long running drama. If the boy was born in 1995, he is now old enough to become Marine of Okinawa. Postponed. Misinformed. Reviewed. Debated. Boring and Unproductive.

Yo Marines! you deserve better than long running soap opera and unwanted hosts. You deserve for not losing moral. Hawaii does not want. Guam does not want. Iwakuni does not want. You need the inhabited land made with sand and rock.

if China can reclaim the land in South China Sea for their bases, Why not Japan reclaim the land somewhere in sea for bases? Better than staying with hostile locals.

HK and Singapore airports were built on reclaimed man made Islands. They are strong, natural disaster prone and Air crafts paradise. They are unsinkable unlike USS Ronald Regan.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Really the Americans can leave and take their money with them. Am not worried about a Chinese invasion and the SDF will protect us. If we become the Ryukyu Kingdom again than we will have our freedom but be broke. Better to be a free person than an owned person mo matter how comfortable. The American patriot Patric Henry said "give me liberty or give me death".

Maybe we should go directly to the United Nations and ask for our freedom from the foreigners.

See it now "vote for Otani Yuri for freedom and peace!"

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@YuriOtani"Maybe we should go directly into the United Nations and ask for our freedom from the foreigners".

Good idea, I think. And we shall see true attitude western powers to principles of Sovereignity, Democracy and Freedom. For example, Americans like to sing songs about countries, oppressed by tyrants or seized by hostile neighbors. What about Okinawa then?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

He can press all he wants. The media in the US hasn't even reported this trip he is making and rightfully so.

Unless we make the alliance something with dignity and pride, with both Japan and America deserving of respect, I don’t believe that the economy in Asia will grow more stable,

This doesn't even make sense. Since when was the economy powered by dignity and pride?

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

What is being planned in Henoko is without doubt a completely new military facility and if one calls it a new military base or an extension is of marginal importance.

Ever been to Henoko? Ever been on Camp Schwab? Camp Schwab has existed for decades, and the semantics are very important especially to those who have no idea about the area in discussion. The press is making it sound like they are building a brand new base, they are not.

New facilities are added, or old ones taken down, on bases ALL the time. Improvements are made, extensions or retractions and they are not called nor named a "new base".

It's an existing base that is getting added functions (units). It does matter.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Really the Americans can leave and take their money with them.

Be careful what you wish for?

Am not worried about a Chinese invasion and the SDF will protect us.

Against a million man army? Sorry, but not a chance. I don't even think you believe that.

If we become the Ryukyu Kingdom again than we will have our freedom but be broke. Better to be a free person than an owned person mo matter how comfortable. The American patriot Patric Henry said "give me liberty or give me death".

What?

Maybe we should go directly to the United Nations and ask for our freedom from the foreigners.

You can't even get Obama to send troops to aid our allies in the Mideast, what in the blazes are you expecting?

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Maybe we should go directly to the United Nations and ask for our freedom from the foreigners.

You live in Oklahoma and want freedom from foreigners? Odds are I have lived on this island longer than you have Yuri, so you were born and raised here, but you made the choice to leave, just as I made the choice to move here. live here, and take Japanese citizenship, just as you chose to take American citizenship.

I have just as much of a right to want to live in safety, and I feel a heck of a lot safer here in Okinawa WITH the US military here than without.

Plus the folks against the US bases here are against the JSDF bases too! That along speaks volumes to their naive views of the world. Plus Okinawa has NO desire to go back to being the Ryukyu Kingdom, and anyone that suggests otherwise is living in a timewarp.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Against a million man army? Sorry, but not a chance. I don't even think you believe that.

Recruit those Taiji boys to round them up. The million man swim. Because that's what they would have to do. LMAO.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

You can't even get Obama to send troops to aid our allies in the Mideast, what in the blazes are you expecting?

The French Foreign Legion perhaps?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

@YuriOtani

Get your independence, set yourself up as an offshore/tax free haven, convert the bases into holiday resorts and build a few casinos ... and the Chinese will love you.

You'll also get a lot of Japanese high rollers coming to play too!

I, personally, don't favor gambling as solution but it does work ... the Ryukyus traditionally used to guarantee their peace by being useful and maintaining good trading relationships with all their neighbors.

Is similar not possible even these days? I don't know of any territorial claim China has maked on them ...

1 ( +1 / -0 )

It look like Japan needs Americans but don't have place for them, one island takes the pressure for rest of Japan to breath easily is not so bad after all.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Ever been to Henoko? Ever been on Camp Schwab?

Yes, many times. There is no runway and no harbor in Camp Schwab, so we are talking about two completely new facilities that are planned and a huge reclamation project that in size is as big or even bigger then the built-up part of of Camp Schwab.

The construction will completely eradicate one of the most beautiful white sand beaches in northern Okinawa and largely destroy a breathtaking marine ecosystem with some of the most divers corrals around the main island.

I believe Okinawans often call it a "new base" as in their perception it would mean an euphemism to call it an "extension" considering the scale of destruction which is many times that of current Camp Schwab.

The only reason to insist on not calling it a new base is cosmetics, meaning to want to make it look less destructive.

But tell me, Yubaru, why should Okinawans, who already bear the overwhelming burden of US military in Japan, who already have to provide nearly 20% of their homeland to the US military put up with this huge destruction of their environment to provide for an "extension" of an existing US base?

Is that just according to your logic?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Just out of interest, I did an Internet search for "new base in Henoko," and got pages of articles calling the proposed base in Henoko "new."

There are at least hundreds of newspapers and other media, committees and so on who refer to the "new base in Henoko."

But, it seems that they are ALL wrong!

Gosh!

It's not a new base at all, but an extension of one that already exists and has been OKed.

Someone better tell them all, quick!

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@bam_boo

It's more than "disgusting right wing propaganda" that the Imperial Army loosen the grip of White Imperialists in Asia leading to the setting free of many colonies ... it's clearly and absolutely proven in the history of many of them, e.g. IJA remaining behind after the way by choice to fight for the relative independence movements.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

It's more than "disgusting right wing propaganda" that the Imperial Army loosen the grip of White Imperialists in Asia leading to the setting free of many colonies ... it's clearly and absolutely proven in the history of many of them, e.g.

Just like we should thank Hitler for the establishment of the European Union and the most peaceful period in history for europeans?

Sorry for the sarcasm, but please name me one serious historian (you can omit any Japanese Channel Sakura affiliates as they are not serious historians) who describes 20th century Asian history the way you do.

The "setting free of colonies" how you euphemistically call it was a decades-lang process that started long before the IJA decided to embark on its infernal raid through Asia and its success was the result of the courageous acts of freedom activists in the respective countries.

And for Okinawa the IJA rage actually led to its becoming a colony once again, this time a US military colony.

Luce-A, I think you should visit the former Asian colonies you are refering to and ask people there if they are thankful for the the IJA "support" during WW2 and see what happens. I suppose you will get into serious trouble with such a naiv view of history, but you could learn a lot about how your Asian neighbors see the world.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

In USA, PLEASE , not NO.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The governor of the Japanese island of Okinawa said on Wednesday he will travel to the United States next week to press his demand that a U.S. military base be removed from his island to lighten the burden of a people weary of hosting U.S. troops.

Note to Okinawan Governor:

You are a mere governor of a prefecture in Japan. You have no authority to demand ANYTHING of a foreign government. What you are wanting to do would be the same as if the Governor of Kentucky went to Tokyo and demanded ANYTHING from Japan's government. As of this morning the plan was to have you meet with some third-level functionary in the State Department, is befits your non-status in international politics. Your swelled-head has made you lose perspective of who you really are.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

I build an extension on my house, I dont tell people I built a new house, I tell them I built an extension.

That beach, that bay, that area, is connected to Schwab, it is not going to be an island, it is going to be connected to the existing base....it's an extension.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

@Fadamor "Note to Okinawan Governor : You are a mere governor of a prefecture in Japan. You have no authority to demand ANYTHING of a foreign government".

He represents people who live on a land, de facto occupied by foreign military forces. He was elected by completely democratic way. Therefore he has full authority to demand ANYTHING. If foreign government spits upon will of Okinawans to remove bases, Okinawa people have all rights to vote for Independence, Sovereignity and Freedom. By restoring independent Ryukyu State, Okinawans can solve all problems both with bases and Tokyo slaves of U.S. Masters.

"the same if the governor of Kentucky went to Tokyo"

Not the same. Please, do not expand such primitive comparisons of American origin to well-known situation with bases on Okinawa.

@Yubaru "I build an extension on my house"

If you are building both house and extension on your own soil, not somewhere on occupied territory, no problem. If your house and extension are on occupied territory, they must be destroyed.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Fadamore (May. 23, 2015 - 04:02AM JST),

You have no authority to demand ANYTHING of a foreign government. What you are wanting to do would be the same as if the Governor of Kentucky went to Tokyo and demanded ANYTHING from Japan's government.

Alas! You are only brandishing a hooligan's logic here. Why? Suppose Tokyo had stolen a large chunk of property in Kentucky and the Governor of Kentucky asked it be returned. Suppose also that Tokyo answered they would return the said property only if its replacement, with enlarged brand-new facilities attached, was provided in the vicinity?

What else can you call this except "a hooligan's logic"?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

If you are building both house and extension on your own soil, not somewhere on occupied territory, no problem. If your house and extension are on occupied territory, they must be destroyed.

Do you find it difficult to understand that the land that Schwab is on is leased to the United States Military through the Japanese government? Do you also find it difficult to understand that the waters surrounding the base are included as areas of exclusion, meaning that they are also a part of the base as well?

It is NOT occupied territory and your argument gets ludicrous when you suggest otherwise. The US is here NOW at the invitation of that Japanese government.

Your arguments and those of others are no longer logical they are all based upon emotions.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

As are yours. Please do not be impolite to other readers.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Your arguments and those of others are no longer logical they are all based upon emotions.

And yours are not, Yubaru?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

No more bickering please.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@Yubaru"It is NOT occupied territory and your argument gets ludicrous when you suggest otherwise.The US is here NOW at the invitation of that of Japanese government".

Excellent. A bully grabbed land of native people and proclaimed it as "invitation". Nice logic ! Perhaps tribes of Natives also "invited" your ancestors to american continent? With such arrogant attitude of Americans towards to Okinawa people, mr Onaga should better invite Putin's "little green men" to clean Okinawa off hostile U.S. bases. Crimea example showed that they can do it quite effectively.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Yubaru (May. 23, 2015 - 07:39AM JST ),

Camp Schwab was opened in 1956 and the affiliated Northern Training Area was opened in 1957. The Marines there were originally stationed in Yamanashi and Gifu Prefectures but had to close their bases and move to Okinawa because of vehement anti-U.S. base movements on the mainland. Tokyo assisted the Marines to move to Okinawa and so, as Yubaru says, the land is "leased to the U.S. Marines" at least legally on the surface.

Note, however, that Okinawa is not demanding the return of Camp Schwab. We are demanding Futenma's return with no strings attached! Futenma is STOLEN PROPERTY, you know.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I wish Mr Onaga well in his efforts

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@Christopher: If he meets anti war lawmakers in Western USA, his wish may have been achieved.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I will contact My US Senator and Congressman and inform them, the citizens on the island want our military off the island. But be careful of what you ask for. But understand we are there to help protect the people of Japan from China and North Korean aggression. Should we leave and China and North Korea acts negative toward Japan! The people of the USA would be reluctant to return. I would strongly recommend that Japan I crease their military capabilities before such a money by the US military.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Wm Thomas Capps,

I am sure that there are many Okinawans who would appreciate your informing your US Senator and Congressman about the situation in Okinawa. But you don't need to worry about any aggression from NK or China. There would be nothing to gain and a lot to lose if they did this. There are no natural resources in Okinawa worth having. It's a wonderful place for tourism, but they would hardly invade for a few nice beaches and fields of sugar cane.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Natural resources? LoL, communist China/NK hate japan. You, I & everyone else knows it. It's all about payback.

& that's why Tokyo wants Okinawa to bow down for bases-

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

@Wm Thomas Capps

If a conflict was started by China against Japan, I doubt whether the Americans would actually get involved, not at least for Japan's sake.

I think the Okinawa occupation is more just about the USA's encirclement of China for its own purposes. It's just convenient for them to have Japan pay what it does for it.

A sort of protection racket.

@bam_boo

I've been to Taiwan and Indonesia and received highly positive feedback. Speaking to old Koreans their response was things generally got better or went on pretty much as it had before.

Obviously, a culture of Japan Hate has been cultured since the war amongst those who were not even born during it but I tend to ignore that and value the opinions of the old people who were actually there.

Ask an old Taiwanese to compare the period under Japan to the period under the Chinese that followed it will keep you entertained for an afternoon!

The truth is, even during the war, for most people life just went on as usual.

Until the Japan Hate mod can give Japan credit for the good it did as well, instead of portraying it as 100% bad, then they have no credibility.

If it was not for Japan, China would still be divided by the European Imperial powers.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Neither has Japan.

But Okinawa has, or to be more precise was forced to.

In numbers:

Land area of the US military in Okinawa 88 sq. mi

Okinawa Island land area 466 sq. mi

Total land area Okinawa 878 sq. mi

So Okinawa has to provide close to 20% of its main island or 10% of its over all land area to the US military. This are numbers completely out of proportion.

This is an appalling injustice that only has managed to survive to this day because of the discrimination of the Okinawan people.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

0 Good Bad Wm Thomas CappsMAY. 23, 2015 - 08:13PM JST I will contact My US Senator and Congressman and inform them, the citizens on the island want our military off the island. But be careful of what you ask for. But understand we are there to help protect the people of Japan from China and North Korean aggression. Should we leave and China and North Korea acts negative toward Japan! The people of the USA would be reluctant to return. I would strongly recommend that Japan I crease their military capabilities before such a money by the US military.

Find their local US Office FAX no. interns and employees can;t open too many mails everyday State your name and address Be precise how the issue is related to your state in American Enlrish No essay or lecture

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@bertie

But you don't need to worry about any aggression from NK or China.

Because YOU say so? Apparently, you know a lot more than the Pentagon, NSA or Japan.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

A few days ago, NK had another missile (new ) shot but US in Korea and Japan did not react. Meanwhile NK and SK are negotiating reunification. China and Japan are bickering about Mrs Abe but openly China and Japan are working on China industriazation and China encouraging their citizens to travel to Japan as China restricts its citizens to travel to Macao. Kind of hard to guess when China will attack Japan. China incread purchasing US Bonds as Japan is not going to increase any further this year.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

bass4funk (May. 24, 2015 - 10:12AM JST)

But governments cry wolf too often.

Take the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, for example, that was concocted by the Johnson administration as a justification for expanding the Vietnam War. In recent years, the Bush administration propagated a rumor that Saddam Hussein's Iraq had stored piles of weapons of mass destruction and that in cahoots with international terrorists attacks against the U.S. were imminent.

You must know that governments befuddle not only its own people but also the world community in order to pursue their political agenda. Imperial Japan during World War II was the model and champion of such propaganda and befuddlement, telling big lies to the nation to the last minute of the war.

There's a strong possibility that a "China/NK threat" can be such cry wolf. And there's an ample reason for that.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Take the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, for example, that was concocted by the Johnson administration as a justification for expanding the Vietnam War. In recent years, the Bush administration propagated a rumor that Saddam Hussein's Iraq had stored piles of weapons of mass destruction and that in cahoots with international terrorists attacks against the U.S. were imminent.

I'm going to say this for the record. I never truly bought into the record of the whole WMD, let's face it, the Bush admin. was in it to remove Saddam, which was totally fine with me and which I fully supported. Having said that, the intel that the Bush admin. received from various international allies at the time DID seem credible, but now we know the intel was faulty. even Bush later admitted he was wrong and takes full responsibility.

There's a strong possibility that a "China/NK threat" can be such cry wolf. And there's an ample reason for that.

In this particular situation, I'm not buying it. NK is selling a lot of their Nuclear technology to Iran, they are very active and that country is a very unstable and it's leader even more so as well as China. I would rather error on the side of caution that is the only thing that keeps us all safe. Japan was an ally and we never thought at the time we would ever go to war with them and look what happened, so you have to excuse me, but I won't rule anything out especially when it involves NK or China.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Japan was an ally and we never thought at the time we would ever go to war with them and look what happened

US was not friendly to Japan at the time.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

It is a shame that there is no internationally accepted protocol ... by which I really mean a protocol that China would recognize ... for territories to proclaiming their independence and neutrality.

It might work in Europe. Don't see it working in Asia yet.

Contrary to the accusations of the Japan Hate mob, there is a lot of support all across Japan for the 'Open City' movement (where, like Paris in WWII, the local government which controls the city declares it an 'open city', thus announcing that they have abandoned all defensive efforts in the expectation that the opposing military will then not to bomb or otherwise attack it).

I can only imagine the PRC amusement at that ... but it's a good idea.

It certainly kept Paris and the Parisiens in better shape than Okinawan and the Okinawans.

I deplore the Americans' absolute disregard for the historical and cultural assets of Islands.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

bass4funk May. 24, 2015 - 03:29PM JST:

I would rather error on the side of caution that is the only thing that keeps us all safe. Japan was an ally and we never thought at the time we would ever go to war with them and look what happened, so you have to excuse me, but I won't rule anything out especially when it involves NK or China.

You can't trust any country, even a current ally, and so it's necessary to take precaution against a possibility that it might turn into a hostile one? Therefore, it is necessary to relocate Futenma's function within Okinawa? So the Marines are here as deterrence against an ultimate antagonist that is Japan?

North Korea's young leader may be unpredictable all right, but he must know more than enough that his country's nuclear arsenal is no match to America's. The reason why North Korea is developing nuclear weapons is apparently not out of their intention to attack the U.S. or Japan but out of fear that they might be attacked by the U.S. with such weapons.

All in all, how does one Marine base in Okinawa fit in this picture? Could it be deterrence against North Korea's or China's missile attacks? Could you explain?"

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Okinawa was graciously given back to Japan -- the US didn't HAVE to give it back, you know -- and the two are living in harmony and Japan under the US' defense. Okinawa is safe thanks to the brave men and women in the US military and its machinery in joint work with Japan's military and the machinery they buy off the US. You should be thanking them.

We will agree to disagree on this one. In fact the presence of the US military there guarantees Okinawa will be in the frontline if Abe has his way and a conflict starts with China

0 ( +1 / -1 )

There are many bases in Okinawa. So. I think Gov Onaga lets his aides do research to find where in USA he will recomment Okinawa bases to be relocated. Don't mention what Japan pay a year. Not Tenn, KY or Tex. These states o offerred their lands to Toyota and Toyota created huge auto factories and people have employments, USA people know bases do not increase economy. Just find places as poor as Okinawa.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

We will agree to disagree on this one. In fact the presence of the US military there guarantees Okinawa will be in the frontline if Abe has his way and a conflict starts with China.

What about JSD bases / personnel?? Won't they (japanese men) actually be @the front line? Oh that's right. Tokyo pays Washington. Japan is a US protectorate- why didn't I think of that.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@ Wc626

It's a protection rack ... and "Aircraft Carrier Number One".

It's true neither Washington nor Tokyo really cares about Okinawa people. For a long time they had absolutely no constitutional protection. The US goes on about how it "protects democracy etc", but when it comes to the practical ...

At least they are making a little more than a $1 a day as dummy Asian villagers as they did in early days as the military prepared for Korea and Vietnam.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Those that protest must not be reading the news about the growing Chinese threat in the South China Sea, and in Asia overall. China seeks to elevate itself to the position of the dominate military power in Asia. What do the people on Okinawa think will happen if their are no U.S bases on Okinawa, and elsewhere in Asia, to challenge the growing Chinese menace? Remember my Japanese friends that the Chinese have no love for Japan or the Japanese people. The war crimes Japan committed in China in WWII live long in the memories of the Chinese, even in the younger generation Chinese I know. The only balance to the rising Chinese threat is a strong military presence by the USA, not only in Japan, but also back in the Philippines and even perhaps in new bases in Vietnam.

Those that forget the past are doomed to repeat it. China is setting itself up to be the new Asian aggressor of the 21st Century as Japan was in the 1930's and 40's. For Japan to ignore this threat she does at her own peril. The bases on Okinawa are a strong deterrent to future Chinese aggession. Once the shooting starts it is too late!!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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