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Russia seeks 'calm' talks with Japan over disputed islands

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russia wants talks with japan under the russian pre-condition that japan brings no pre-conditions of claims. those russians are genius negotiators, i'm impressed!

0 ( +2 / -2 )

He only made the offer knowing full well the Japanese are incapable of meeting such a precondition. Japan will probably respond with "we'll agree to meet if Russia understands the islands are a part of Japan and Russia has no legitimate right to the northern territories." Russia will the score it's diplomatic point and Japanese black vans will gas up and hit the road once more.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Takahiro: The surprise here is that the Russians sound as if they are willing to make some concessions. If Japan doesn't enter the talks hellbent on full return of all the islands, maybe they can obtain some fishing or mineral rights or maybe even possession of a few smaller islands.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Get ready for some Gemba gaffes!

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Agree with paulinusa. The fact that the Russinas are calling on Japan is a positive sign.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has called on Japan to begin “calm” discussions, without preconditions, on the fate of the disputed Kuril islands

Be great if it happened. But the words Japan and calm have not been used very much in conjunction with these kinds of issues of late. Japan still seems to still believe strongly in the juvenile form of diplomacy with lots of saber-rattling. Even though thye have no sabers to rattle.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Question on the islands must be solved in new ways. And not only between Russia and Japan, but also with the participation of the Ainu people. From the outset it was our island, and not Russian or Japanese.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Boris Yarovoy> most islands and countries used to belong to a whole range of races, tribes, aborigines, indigenous people. It all comes down to timing. Had Japan went on a colonization rampage back in the 17th Century then nobody would be complaining today along side the British, Spanish, French, Portuguese, etc, etc.... I reckon the cut of point in history for major border changes were at the end of the 19th Century. The other small border changes were part of lots of small wars between neighbouring countries during WWI & WWII especially for Europe and East Asia.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Japan lost the war, just like Germany where I'm from, so I can't recall that Germany got to keep Poland or France after the war! So I think a country who lost the war should deal with it because it was decision made almost 60 years ago. The black van Nazis are not the brightest kind of people in Japan - they exist everywhere in the world, they look a bit different, but should not impact anything unless elected in a political party.

I hope Japan stop this discussions returns all of the islands also in southern Japan and opens it's borders for Russian nationals as they have some a the riches people in the world, which would not be particular bad for tourism in Japan

1 ( +4 / -3 )

The two smaller islands had always been on the table, Japan's policy has always been the return of all four in one go. If Japan fears that if she took the two smaller islands then Russia will conclude that the dispute had been settled. The Russians don't want to be burdened with the two smaller islands they want to keep the two larger islands where they constructed military installations which has direct access to the Pacific ocean.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Samurai : The question is whether Japan is willing to settle for less and declare victory or talk tough and walk away empty handed. Obviously Japan's domestic politics ( and Russia's ) looms large in these talks.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

It depends on how you measure "less". With physical possession it may be two is better than none but in political sense things get a bit more murky. Another point is what Russia really wants is for Japan to invest in Siberia with investments and technological input so they can gain (while shafting Japan in return) why entertain their desires without regaining minimum demands?

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I agree that it is a positive step that the Russians are willing to hold talks, but I doubt anything will come of them. The only way Japan can come out on top is if they are willing to take back the two islands and leave the other two for Russia, settling the dispute. But even when a minister in the LDP 'joked' about getting 3.5 islands back he was skewered in the media and forced to apologize, etc. Japan will demand all four and nothing will be accomplished.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I say build a nuclear plant up north in hokkaido.

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Boris - if we are going to include the Ainu, we should also include the Germans and Chechens, given that so many of the colonists planted on those islands by Stalin were from those groups deported there by force as part of Soviet collective punishment.

I guess they share in common with the Ainu, that like the Ainu on the islands, they also spent decades in Soviet concentration camps in Siberia, except in this case their crime was living on islands that stopped Russia having unhindered access to the Pacific Ocean.

The mainly Ainu refugees from the Northwest territories still live in Nemuro, regularly visit family burial sites on the islands, and are at the forefront of the lobby in Japan to return their family homes on those islands. They are well represented and sympathized with by people who know what suffering they have been put through over the last 60 years.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Smithinjapan - I think Japan's position has never officially changed from the 2+2 solution proposed by Breshnev - Japan gets the two most inhabited islands back first, then the two countries sign a peace treaty and a bunch of economic tie ups and then negotiate the timetable for the remaining two.

It's a good plan for both sides.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Japan I think will refuse the talks unless it starts with Russia conceding the Kuril Islands to them. Oh, and maybe getting North Korea to resolve the abduction issue as well. They may as well throw that into the conditions and make it even tougher to come to civil negotiations.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

I say build a nuclear plant up north in hokkaido.

There already IS a nuclear power plant here in Hokkaido... and how does that relate to this article?? ... Agree that the Ainu should be considered too.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Japan is the Ainu nation. So we agree.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

All readers back on topic please.

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With Maehara pulling the strings behind the scenes, don't expect any news about Fukushima NPS. Instead, it will be evil Russia this, evil China that...

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Korea China and Russia are looking to carve a few islands and seaways from Japan since they've had to deal with so much this year.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Japan lost the war. Japan signed the treaty to say it is not theirs. Tough luck if someone's great great great granny's grave is there. Get over it. Stop whining. Don't blame the Russians for taking it. Blame your old emperor for starting a stupid war.

exactly. japan started the war and lost it. russia took the kurils as spoils. to think that japan still has the nerves to tell the victor to return those spoils is just unbelievable. japan should know their place.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Takahiro: The surprise here is that the Russians sound as if they are willing to make some concessions.

and why is it a surprise?? the russians DID previously offer to share the kurils, but arrogant japan refused the offer. japan have themselves to blame.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Do not see any talks being "productive", Russia will offer nothing but a peace treaty. Japan will walk away from the talks. Result a big zero, perhaps some demonstrations in Russia. Will a Russian "mob" trash the Japanese embassy in Moscow, while the Russian troops do nothing?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Appealing to US recognized treaties, as it is often done here or elsewhere, is exactly the reason why the territorial dispute is not solved yet. The SF treaty has legally nothing to do with Russian-Japanese relationships as Russia was never a part of it. It is said clearly in the text of the SF treaty that it applies only to those, who signed it. In other words, Russia does not care of any kinds of treaties Japan may or may not sign with the US or the other nations.

Consequently, bringing US to the equation is a mistake. Japan should play politically independent.

The same with legality/illegality of Russian occupation of the islands. Russia did occupy islands during a war between the two nations and NOT after Japan did surrender, because ... Japan did not surrender to Russia. Japan and Russia, de jure, are still at war. Or are they? Again, Russia legally should not care about Japan's surrender to other nations.

Consequently, solving the islands, Japan should operate in terms of the war with Russia and not with the US and other allies.

Bringing the irrelevant treaties and agreements to the table is a sure way to stall the process forever and create a JT type of forum there, instead of finding a solution. Bringing historical claims is even more stupid, as even here it was mentioned numerous times that borders change, populations move throughout history. The land was Nobody's, Tribal, Ainu, Japanese, and now it is Russian. Then, it may be someone else's.

Calm down, be politically more independent, stop shouting and waiving katanas, is what is required from Mr. Gemba. I hope he understands that, unless his aim is political noise and not the solution of the territorial problem.

And remember: "50% of something is always better than 100% of nothing" -Han, from "The Fast and the Furious: Tokyo Drift (2006)"

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Danger ! Have serious reservations over the deadlock territorial talk between the experienced S. Lavrov versus the politically youth FM Gemba..

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KonstaSep. 12, 2011 - 11:47PM; JSTAppealing to US recognized treaties, as it is often done here or elsewhere, is exactly the reason why the territorial dispute is not solved yet. The SF treaty has legally nothing to do with Russian-Japanese relationships as Russia was never a part of it. It is said clearly in the text of the SF treaty that it applies only to those, who signed it. In other words, Russia does not care of any kinds of treaties Japan may or may not sign with the US or the other nations.

In Which case Soviet Union and succeeding Russia is fully to blame since the Soviets were the ones that violated the Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact making their occupation an invasion of Japanese sovereignty.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@ SamuraiBlue. Breaking neutrality pacts is more a rule than an exception. It is, of course, nothing extraordinary. In 1941, for example, Hitler broke the Molotov-Ribbentrop neutrality pact and started the very well known Soviet invasion as a part of the WWII. Even though, it is a good starting point for negotiations.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

KonstaSep. 13, 2011 - 12:15AM JST; @ SamuraiBlue. Breaking neutrality pacts is more a rule than an exception. It is, of course, nothing extraordinary. In 1941, for example, Hitler broke the Molotov-Ribbentrop neutrality pact and started the very well known Soviet invasion as a part of the WWII. Even though, it is a good starting point for negotiations.

In which case it is considered a war of aggression in the part of the party who broke the treaty therefore the claim of invaded territory stands in court of international law.

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Japan accepted the Potsdam Declaration on Aug. 14, 1945. The Soviets landed on Iturup on Aug. 28 and on Kunashir and Habomai on Sept. 1. And it's on Sept. 4, two days after Japan signed on the capitulation which the Soviets also signed on the same day on Missouri that they occupied Shikotan. I think it's extraordinary to invade and occupy foreign land after the capitulation was signed in a war which they started by breaking the neutral treaty whether or not as part of WWII. They may wel call for calm talks.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@ SamuraiBlue. I am not a specialist in International Law. Stalin indeed violated the neutrality pact. I, however, do not know what kind of consequences it may have in the International court considering frequency of such events. And especially how it can be linked to the territorial problem. This requires more study. Stalin, however, did a very stupid thing disregarding power of international treaties, and even more listening to the allies. He gave his word and stood by it regardless of the treaty. Anything you say will be used agains you, heh. What a stupid noble thing to do. But that's just IMHO.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@Seiharinokaze. How Soviets could sign the capitulation of Japan and the two countries are now still at war? Think with your head, plz.

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This is the main reason why Russia has not progressed as a society. The Russian goverment is still in the cold wars mentality and times has changed where relations between Japan and Russia is exceptionally important and can improve by Russians taking small steps on unresolved issues of the Kurile Island. Russians needs to return the island and peaceful and benefitial dialogue can progress.

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sfjp330, I wonder if insulting Russia comes naturally before asking it for a small step forward. Should it be changed, maybe? Also, I doubt that relationship between Japan and Russia will improve after the islands are given to Japan. I am afraid that literally nothing will happen except certain ego boost that “We Finally Won!”. Economical ties are governed by completely different things. I would very much assume that the territorial issue can be solved only AS A RESULT of improved relations, similar to what happened between Japan and the US… But there are obvious obstacles in that department.

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KonstaSep. 13, 2011 - 04:10AM JST. I wonder if insulting Russia comes naturally before asking it for a small step forward. Should it be changed, maybe?

If you read the history clearly, the problem was not a fault of Russians or Japanese. During the 1956 peace talks between Japan and the Soviet Union, they actually shared principals and values. The Soviet side proposed to settle the dispute by returning Shikotan and Habomai to Japan, but an U.S. intervention warning Japan that a withdrawal of the Japanese claim on the other islands would mean the U.S. would keep on to Okinawa, caused Japan to refuse these terms. Blame it on the U.S. The Russians no longer need Japanese assistance. They have China as a major trade partner in the Far East Asia and they will continue to take a hard line stance against Japan. Nothing will change on Kuril Island issue.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@Boris YarovoySep. 12, 2011 - 09:53AM JST

I'm sorry. Can I understand you that Russia must lose non-freezable gateway to Pacific ocean? Your idea is mad. You don't worry about strategic security of Russia.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I suppose that we must stop discussions about Kurils. Because we lose 65 years, nervous, energy and our hope for good result of that discussions. But really Japanese politics elite can't respect own Japan. Now Japanese politics elite in crisis state. We hope that Japane somewhere will be respect of strategic security of Russia. But now Japan isn't ready for that. That discussions must be without respect of strategic security? Target of discussions that is respect of strategic security. Russia respect of strategic security of Japan, but Japan is not respect strategic security of Russia.

Russia can't exists without Kurils because that is non-freezable gateway to Pacific ocean. In 1945 Stalin stop occupation of Hokkaido but USA not stop occupation of Okinawa. Japan don't remember and not respect of Stalin decision.

I sure that discussions must be started only after respect from Japan for out right of strategic security and our right for own non-freezable gateway to Pacific ocean.

We never do something terrible for Japan. We have full right hope and wait respect our strategic security from Japan.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

BessonovYanSep. 13, 2011 - 07:01AM JST. Russia can't exists without Kurils because that is non-freezable gateway to Pacific ocean. In 1945 Stalin stop occupation of Hokkaido but USA not stop occupation of Okinawa. Japan don't remember and not respect of Stalin decision.

What Russians did wrong was the forcible deportation of 17,000 Japanese residents on the Southern Kurile Islands and the subsequent settlement of Soviet citizens, executed by the USSR between 1947 and 1949 violated another international regulation, namely to deport indigenous population in absence of military requirements and to form settlements on occupied territories.

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sfjp330Sep. 13, 2011 - 06:13AM JST If you read the history clearly, the problem was not a fault of Russians or Japanese. During the 1956 peace talks between Japan and the Soviet Union, they actually shared principals and values. The Soviet side proposed to settle the dispute by returning Shikotan and Habomai to Japan, but an U.S. intervention warning Japan that a withdrawal of the Japanese claim on the other islands would mean the U.S. would keep on to Okinawa, caused Japan to refuse these terms. Blame it on the U.S. The Russians no longer need Japanese assistance. They have China as a major trade partner in the Far East Asia and they will continue to take a hard line stance against Japan. Nothing will change on Kuril Island issue.

That is true. The offer of two islands is still standing, however, but I don't know how it is any relevant, considering the current state of politics and the Japanese mass media, which maintains the level of like/dislike towards Russia at 10% (like). Contrary to that, Russian mass media maintains this level at 30%-40% like. It gives much more room for politicians to work. Russia recently solved its territorial disputes with China and Norway on a 50/50 basis. So, I don't see Russia as totally unreasonable here, even though a lot of Russians were unhappy.

The problem with China is that it may soon become the major trade partner #1 for the US and the whole world in the Far East Asia, and gradually substitute Japan completely. Economically, I tend to see China as Japan of the 21st sentury. Very similar features. This may weaken Japan's position in the future.

Just to be perfectly clear, I would very much like Japan to improve its relationships with Russia, as well as with S.Korea and China. There's simply no alternative.

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BessonovYanSep. 13, 2011 - 07:01AM JST I suppose that we must stop discussions about Kurils.... ...Russia respect of strategic security of Japan, but Japan is not respect strategic security of Russia... ...Russia can't exists without Kurils because that is non-freezable gateway to Pacific ocean.... ...We never do something terrible for Japan. We have full right hope and wait respect our strategic security from Japan...

No, we must not, but you may. Look, friend, your "lightly put" comments... I really tried to avoid your provocative style, similar to that of the other manga character here, Yuri_ something or what was his name... but really...

Japan DOES respect Russian borders, even when it consideres parts of Russia to be Japanese territory. Russia CAN exist without Kurils just as any other state can. As sfjp330 kindly noted to you, Russia DID do something, which Japan considers as terrible. These are things, which should not be hidden, but discussed. Reparations payed, maybe. Japanese people should not care about Russians having a "non-freezable gateway to Pacific ocean". This type of arguments are nonsense, and provocatively said to boot.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

KonstaSep. 13, 2011 - 07:47AM JST. Japanese people should not care about Russians having a "non-freezable gateway to Pacific ocean". This type of arguments are nonsense,

Russians are very clear, once the Southern Kuril Islands are returned to Japan, the Russian Navy's Pacific Fleet's exports into the Pacific Ocean will be blocked, so the Russian military strongly opposed to the Southern Kuril Islands returned to Japan. The South Kuril Islands, not only expand the scope of Russia's defense, to ensure the Kamchatka Peninsula in the Far East to the safety of maritime transport channel, but also to protect the irreplaceable Pacific Fleet role. If Japan occupied the four northern islands, this would pose a serious threat to Russia's security, deteriorating strategic situation.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

BULLFROG! The Russians want all of our northern territories and are only prepared to sell oil and gas as part of a peace treaty. No northern territories, No peace treaty!

0 ( +1 / -1 )

BBC is not a reliable source on anything related to Japan - there is a dispute over whether the Northeast territories are included in the definition of "Kurils" which Japan signed back to Russia. The US backs Japan's assertion that the "Southern Kurils" are not part of the Kuril island chain that Japan signed over to Russia - worth noting of course that the Southern Kurils had never been part of Russian territory at any time in history, the return of Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands down to the Northeast territories represented the return of Russian territory lost by Russia in the 1904 invasion of Japan. Fact is that the northeast territories were long inhabited settled Japanese territory.

Stalin wanted the islands mainly for strategic reasons - with the US occupying Japan and the cold war starting, it didn't want the US to have any ability to impede its access to the Pacific using Hokkaido bases, so it just took all the islands between Kamachatka and Hokkaido, and deported all the residents to Siberia for 20 years before letting them return to Japan.

Breshnev acknowledged that the occupation of those islands was unjust when he came to power and let the residents return to Japan, and tabled the proposal for the reversion of the islands to Japan in exchange for a peace treaty.

Recent Russian presidents have become more assertive mainly for nationalistic reasons, and of course the fact that residents deported by Stalin to live on those islands have themselves been living on the occupied islands for more than a generation now.

The criteria for reconciliation has long been clear - the Japanese/Ainu residents of those islands must be allowed to return to their homes and properties there. It's a reasonable demand.

Peace

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sfjhp330 - The Southern Kurils alone give no ability to Japan and the US to blockade the sea of Okhotsk, Russia still has 90% of the territory between Kamachatka and Hokkaido. Holding onto the Norhteast Territories is just needless overkill on Russia's part - something Breshnev understood.

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HikozaemonSEP. 13, 2011 - 12:13PM JST

The US backs Japan's assertion that the "Southern Kurils" are not part of the Kuril island chain that Japan signed over to Russia

Interesting statement, heres one for you

U.S. geographers have traditionally listed them as part of the Kuril chain

So given that the US geographers have traditionally included these islands in the Kurils and the Kurils where ceded to Russia then end of story

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Russia will never return the islands unless free passage of their Pacific Fleet Task Force headquartered in Vladivostok is guaranteed.

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Spidapig24 - the EU parliament and the US back Japan's interpretation on this issue. Those islands remain occupied territory.

CrazyJoe - there is no way Japan could block the Pacific Fleet from just those four islands beside Hokkaido. Russia has complete access to the Pacific through nearly the entire strait between Kamachatka and Hokkaido, regardless of whether the four islands beside Hokkaido are returned to Japan, and the Japanese refugee landowners of those islands.

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Hikozaemon

Spidapig24 - the EU parliament and the US back Japan's interpretation on this issue. Those islands remain occupied territory.

In relation to the EU parliament, yes they did offer a statement saying Russia should hand back the Southern Kurils to Japan. However this flies in the face of what some member nations of the EU believe. For example the UK believes

"the Soviet Union’s full rights to the territory of the Southern Kuril Islands are recognized by all international agreements in which the UK took part."

As for the US view, if you look at the current situation its easy to see that the US actually is largely responsible for this mess. Initially the US was going to divide Japan into 4 zones of control with the USSR getting Hokkaido and all the Kurils and the rest of Japan divided up with China, US and Commonwealth forces. The US then reneged on this. Then the US reneged on the agreement with the USSR that they were to get all land north of Hokkaido, again they reneged.

Finally let me ask you this, who in this whole mess is being stubborn and recalcitrant? Russia or Japan. Russia has repeatedly offered two of the islands back even as late as 2005, the Russian president has invited the Japanese Prime Minister to Russia in to discuss the issue and again offered 2 of the islands back. What was Japans response? The Japanese government authorized schoolbooks that claim sovereignty over the islands. So l ask you who is making an effort to resolve the situation? It sure as hell isnt Japan who seem hell bent on getting as much milage out of playing the victim as possible.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

If Russia returns the islands to Japan, under the US-Japan Security Treaty, US Forces will have full access to the area including the Sea of Okhotsk, and Kunashiri Suido (国後水道). Will Russia be happy with that?

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Spidapig24Sep. 13, 2011 - 02:59PM JST; Finally let me ask you this, who in this whole mess is being stubborn and recalcitrant? Russia or Japan. Russia has repeatedly offered two of the islands back even as late as 2005, the Russian president has invited the Japanese Prime Minister to Russia in to discuss the issue and again offered 2 of the islands back. What was Japans response? The Japanese government authorized schoolbooks that claim sovereignty over the islands. So l ask you who is making an effort to resolve the situation?

Stubborn and recalcitrant? Don't make me laugh. Russia is like a robber who stole the crown jewels and now negotiating so they can keep half.

Japan has constantly been patient listening to all the bull$hit Moscow spills out tying to obtain something which isn't theirs in the first place.

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SamuraiBlueSEP. 13, 2011 - 06:07PM JST

Stubborn and recalcitrant? Don't make me laugh. Russia is like a robber who stole the crown jewels and now negotiating so they can keep half. Japan has constantly been patient listening to all the bull$hit Moscow spills out tying to obtain something which isn't theirs in the first place.

So l take it you condone the Japanese actions i.e. holding exercises on their neighbors doorsteps but you disapprove of Russia doing this to Japan. Doesnt that smack of hypocrisy?

Oh and Russia stole the islands did they, and how exactly did they manage that?

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Breach of a non-aggression pact and attack/invasion after declaration of surrender was a bushwack move by the Soviets...

Either way, I hope the Russians can also talk in a "calm" manner, seeing that they historically riddle civilian fishing boats with AK-47's in the area....

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Spidapig24Sep. 13, 2011 - 06:16PM JST; So l take it you condone the Japanese actions i.e. holding exercises on their neighbors doorsteps but you disapprove of Russia doing this to Japan. Doesnt that smack of hypocrisy?

Oh and Russia stole the islands did they, and how exactly did they manage that?

Don't know which exercises you are talking about but If they were maritime exercises then I am sure they were in international waters outside any other nation's EEZ unless they were participating guided under UNCLOS.

As for stealing the northern territories, if you actually took the time to read through the thread you'll find out. Try it sometime you'll look more intelligent that way.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Japan, now more than ever, needs what ever land it can get its hands one since it just lost a whole swath of land in Fukushima due to radioactive contamination. I do not imagine Japan will relent on this. Hopefully Russia will take a charitable stance and let Japan have these patches of land sticking out of the ocean. Japan is already having a very bad year.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

@sfjp330Sep. 13, 2011 - 07:13AM JST

I'm not have judicial education. I'm engineer for industrial automation. I sure that is not good for 17000 Japanese. But in situation of 1945 that is most peace action.

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@KonstaSep. 13, 2011 - 07:47AM JST

As sfjp330 kindly noted to you, Russia DID do something, which Japan considers as terrible.

17000? That is not terrible. For 1945 problems of 17000 to move to other are that is not good but that is no problem - not more. You can compare that with victims of 731 unit.

Japanese people should not care about Russians having a "non-freezable gateway to Pacific ocean".

I sure that different people have different opinions. Also I sure that many Japanese can agree with me but with you not.

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@sfjp330Sep. 13, 2011 - 07:54AM JST

If Japan occupied the four northern islands, this would pose a serious threat to Russia's security, deteriorating strategic situation.

Not only that. Can you make prognosis of China and USA reaction after that? That is important too.

I don't know but last fly of our Tu-95MC may be signal to China and USA. Because modification of Tu-95MC is not bomber. It can carry missiles X-55 that can fly about 2500-5000km i.e. to China. Interesting reaction of USA and China - they don't tell about worry but USA have bases in Japan.

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@YuriOtaniSep. 13, 2011 - 08:12AM JST

BULLFROG! The Russians want all of our northern territories and are only prepared to sell oil and gas as part of a peace treaty. No northern territories, No peace treaty!

Because economic of Japan must be stable. Japan must be technological world leadership. That is very important for balance in the word and without some compromises.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

@sswaySep. 14, 2011 - 02:30AM JST

After 11/03 many Russian politics public told that many Japanese can move to east region of Russia. What problem? You can do it.

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@SamuraiBlueSep. 13, 2011 - 06:07PM JST

Russia is like a robber who stole the crown jewels and now negotiating so they can keep half.

We not stole. Stalin, Rustbelt and Churchill was solve that Kurils will be own of Russia. Three guys solve it. So not one not interesting about opinion of Japan. All understand about future of Japan. Russia can't lose gateway to Pacific ocean and make present to USA. Now Japan discussing about Kurils make present not only USA but also to China too.

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SamuraiBlue

Don't know which exercises you are talking about but If they were maritime exercises then I am sure they were in international waters outside any other nation's EEZ unless they were participating guided under UNCLOS.

To quote you "if you actually took the time to read through the thread you'll find out. Try it sometime you'll look more intelligent that way". And yes the exercises where held in INTERNATIONAL waters just outside the territorial waters, just like these flights where in INTERNATIONAL airspace. Do you see the similarities? I will give you a hint both where conducted in international areas (airspace and waters). Yet you openly critisise one and not the other. That is why l called you a hypocrite.

As for stealing the northern territories, if you actually took the time to read through the thread you'll find out. Try it sometime you'll look more intelligent that way

Oh dont worry l do know the history. Let me enlighten you, you say stealing yet the definition of stealing is "to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right". Now given Japan and Russia was at war a more appropriate definition would be seize (as defined by "to take possession of by force or at will"). So rather than use emotive words like stole, you could use more accurate words. After all would you say Japan stole the territories it occupied during WW2 or did they seize them.

Maybe if you where less emotive you would look more intelligent ;-)

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BessonovYan, then there will be no peace treaty with Russia. Japan should halt ALL meeting until the Russians do the right thing and return our islands. I prefer no talking at all with the Russians. Return our islands or there will NEVER be a peace treaty. I favor a trade embargo of Russia. No Russian good permitted within our sovereign state. Spidapig24, so you would be ok with Japan holding exercises off of Siberia? As long as it is in "international" airspace

0 ( +0 / -0 )

BessonovYanSep. 14, 2011 - 06:16AM JST. 17000? That is not terrible. For 1945 problems of 17000 to move to other are that is not good but that is no problem - not more. You can compare that with victims of 731 unit. But in situation of 1945 that is most peace action.

Problem is that the relocation of 17,000 of these native Japanese population took place in peace time of 1947 to 1949, two to four years after defeat of Japan to deport indigenous population in absence of military requirements and to form settlements on occupied territories.

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The situation will persist until Russia modernizes and expands the military and economic infrastructure of its Pacific regions, which need new warships, bases, airfields, aircraft and other equipment. More than that, they need human resources, people who would live there permanently instead of going there to work in shifts. Russia has a group of almost invulnerable nuclear submarines and long-range aircraft in the Pacific area, which, together with nuclear weapons, reliably protect Russia's Far Eastern regions from potential attacks.

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YuriOtani, you don't get it do you. Russia DOES NOT need Japanese peace treaty. This peace treaty and the two islands are a "gesture" towards Japan, and not up side down. It is a step forward, which Russia makes towards stuck up Japanese government. Japan is not a politically independent country and is not in a position to set any conditions. Contrary to what you think, Russia does not want to talk with Japan about the peace treaty. That is why they always say, "Let's talk about economics, instead". Do you see it? None of the Russians on this forum was talking about the peace treaty. Only you. I don't know how it may be more clear.

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Japanese claims of 'Kurile isles'.....stooges diplomacy for ameteurs!

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The Russian is 'insulting' Japan with the bomber's flights around Japan. The japanese govt changing every year and maybe they have to do this again soon after the next PM sworn in!

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Japan should laid a wealth over the soviet army monument in Manchuria in order to show some kind of 'gratitutes'! This is the way should be instead of endless protesting with meaningless results! You know, no countries will backing Japan's claim for those isles!

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Konsta, Russia is not doing very well. The new ruling class is so rich compared to the people. It is just begging for another revolution. How about China? They would LOVE to take a piece out of siberia. Had to have belonged to China in the past. I say lets not talk at all! Russia is a has been, they just do not know it yet. No Japan should not talk with Russia. just-a-guy, do not get too excited and Japan is not the threat to Russia. China is looking north and they have the manpower to do the job. Just be happy China and Japan do not work tougher. If we did Russia would be surrounded on all sides.

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YuriOtani

Japan should halt ALL meeting until the Russians do the right thing and return our islands. I prefer no talking at all with the Russians. Return our islands or there will NEVER be a peace treaty. I favor a trade embargo of Russia. No Russian good permitted within our sovereign state.

Yuri, so you want to risk an escalation in this by imposing embargoes to get your islands back and a peace treaty? Yeah ok. Do you actually understand why you lost these islands in the first place? You lost them because of your countries actions and now you ignore those very actions and solely blame Russia. This is so typical, as per usual playing the victim. Oh the big bad bully stole our land..... Your lucky that is all the land they took if it wasnt for the US reneging on their agreements you would have also lost Hokkaido so l think you as a warmongering aggressor got off quite lightly.

Spidapig24, so you would be ok with Japan holding exercises off of Siberia? As long as it is in "international" airspace

Sure would. As its in international airspace whats the issue. And thats my point, all you Japanese xenophiles are jumping up and down about a Russian exercise conducted in international airspace yet not one of you have raised any concern when Japan has done exactly the same to its neighbors. Now that my from is either hypocrisy or xenophobia.

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YuriOtani, I understand what you are saying, or I try to. But from any visible point of view, it is not wise for Japan to severe relationship with Russia. It is really not a good idea from Japanese point of view. Think about it:

Middle East and other East and Africa are starting to burn. Irak, Iran, Lybia, Syria, Afghanistan and so on and so forth. Russia is a safe supplier of natural resources. Germany (unlike stupid EU, sorry had to express my disgust towards European politics) and China understood that well. Japan can rely on the US for protection for now, but US will not do economics for Japan. They will simply turn to China, when the time will come.

Time is playing for Russia. The islands will be Russian according to any international law if they are governed by Russia for more than 100 years. Need to solve the problem before that.

And the most important, Russia is a rather powerful state with 1000 years of history. It may stay in the current state for next several hundred years, can go up and down. Look for growing Chinese economy and compare it with China 100 years ago. Fall of the Soviet Union had it consequences. Nothing unexpected. The political landscape changes so quickly, that Russia may be an ally in 50-100 years. It may be the only one, who will save your life. I am not a pacifist, but outright political infantilism and stupidity cost obscenely lot.
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@ Yuri,

" Japan is not the threat to Russia. China is looking north and they have the manpower to do the job. Just be happy China and Japan do not work tougher. If we did Russia would be surrounded on all sides.".........................................

are you suggesting China and Japan should " work " together to threaten mother russia ? I thought you hate everything Chinese. LOL

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@YuriOtaniSep. 14, 2011 - 08:12AM JST

No more longer then USA.

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@sfjp330Sep. 14, 2011 - 08:47AM JST

That is no problem because 17 000 was not killed. That is more than enougth for dark period of world. But for us after 2 September 1945 start new war - cold war. After 2 September 1945 Japan have peace but we all our history have hot war or cold war without peace. Citizen of Japan must live in Japan area. Japan government must worry about 17000 more that Russia. Four islans in not big area. Really Japan not lose something big.

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@just-a-guySep. 14, 2011 - 10:11AM JST

The Russian is 'insulting' Japan with the bomber's flights around Japan.

You are not right. Our pilots must training. Also I wrote above that modification of Tu-95MV is not bomber, that is means that it can't use for attack of Japan. That modification for use X-55 missiles. Politics elite of Japan can't find balance between China, USA and Russia. Because Japan have disbalance of world relationship and problems from that.

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BessonovYanSep. 14, 2011 - 06:51AM JST. We not stole. Stalin, Rustbelt and Churchill was solve that Kurils will be own of Russia. Three guys solve it. So not one not interesting about opinion of Japan.

What it boils down to is that Russia's treaty is worthless. In 1875, Japan and Russia signed a treaty settling claims in the area. Japan acknowledged Russia's claim to the larger Sakhalin island to the north, while Russia acknowledged that the Kurils belonged to Japan.

After World War II, Russia expelled the 17,000 Japanese inhabitants of the four Kuril islands Japan wants back. Russians were brought in, and about 16,000 of them (including many Ukrainians, Koreans and so on) currently inhabit the islands. There's not much economic value to the Kurils, but the Russians are still hacked off at losing a war to Japan in 1905, and to Japanese soldiers occupying parts of eastern Russia after World War I. Japan and Russia had a non-aggression treaty for most of World War II. But Russia declared war on Japan on August,1945, and promptly invaded Japanese occupied Manchuria. Japanese surrendered to the U.S. a month later. You could say that Japan and Russia have a lot of unresolved issues, and all that aerial activity off northern Japan is a result. If nothing else, it gives pilots on both sides lots of practice.

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@sfjp330Sep. 15, 2011 - 06:51AM JST

You told about Kurils without military balance in the world and you don't worry about stable peace situation in Asia region. We do it not for 1905. I wtrote that Kuril islans is strategic region that very important for our strategic security. After 2 September 1945 started cold war. In August 1945 we must be ready for end of WW2, because after WW2 start cold war and we need Kurils.

but the Russians are still hacked off at losing a war to Japan in 1905

No. I many wrote why we need Kurils - strategic security not one other motives. If we would need reverenge for 1905 we would occupate all Japan but not four small islands.

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BessonovYan, you have it backwards Japan needs revenge for the Russian attack of 1945. It was unprovoked and a "sneak attack" upon the Japanese nation. There will never be peace until Russia gives back what it stole. никогда Russia of today is the same country that shot down Korean Airlines Flight 007 and over what is Japanese territory. No камрад as long as Russia holds our land there will be no peace. отсутствие северных территорий отсутствие мира

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YuriOtani

Japan needs revenge for the Russian attack of 1945. It was unprovoked and a "sneak attack" upon the Japanese nation. There will never be peace until Russia gives back what it stole.

Yuri thanks for the laugh, as usual your backwards view of reality astounds me. So Russia attacked unprovoked and in a sneak attack hey. So if thats your argument how do you explain this: Russia denounced the Russia / Japan non aggression pact in April of 1945 as was required by the pact (it stated that either party had to renounce it 1 year before it expired otherwise it automatically continued for another 5 years. It ended in Apr 1946 so Apr 1945 was the cutoff for withdrawing). Russia then did not attack Japan until August 8th, this was AFTER the Soviets notified Japan that they where declaring war on them.

So sneak attack hardly, how can it be a sneak attack if you have told the country you are declaring war on them. The only country who goes around conducting sneak attacks is Japan. As for unprovoked lets see, Japan allied itself with Germany who attacked Russia. Therefore Japan through its allegiances attacked Russia. So unprovoked hardly.

So as for your land, hardly. You lost it fair and square in a war your nation started so as the instigators of the action that cost you the islands l have one thing to say. BUILD A BRIDGE!!!!

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Comrade Spidapig24, Japan was trying to surrender through Russia. As per your words the non aggression pact expired in 1946. So Russia broke the treaty and there is no getting around it. So Comrade why would Russia honor any new treaties? Their track record stinks, breaking every treaty they signed with Japan.

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Comrade BessonovYan, they did not issue an ultimate or issue a declaration of war prior to hostilities. The Americans called Japan doing this "unforgivable", why does Russia not get held to the same standard?

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I think, you are right, YuriOtani. To hell with peace treaty. By putting all 4 islands into preliminary conditions, the J-Gov made it clear that there will be no treaty with Russians anyway. So, why bother. Russia is one inch close to closing all the talks about it. She, actually, doesn't want to talk about it already. The government in Japan is changing every half a year, anyway, so the government, which lost all 4 islands will quickly be forgotten. If Japan doesn't need peace, why Russia would want it? The only one thing is needed, is that the J-Gov would listen to you (YuriOtani) and stop talking to Russians, and especially stop nagging every time about the islands. Who cares, anyway. The Japanese business is already branching out, because it can't follow nonsensical politics of its own government, which puts unreachable conditions and then resigns, because it obviously can not fulfill them. No wonder, the Chinese are laughing at you.

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The Soviet - Japan neutrality pact was signed on April 13, 1941 in Moscow. It was valid for 5 years (April 13, 1946). Without at least a year's advance notice to the other party, the pact woulld be extended for another 5 years. Russia denounced the pact on April 5, 1945 and declared war on Japan on August 8, 1945 and the invasion begins the next day. What if Russia denounced the pact on April 14, 1941(the day after the pact was signed) and declared war on Japan on April 5, 1945? In either cases this is clearly a violation of the pact and International Law since the pact is effective for 5 years regardless of the date of denunciation.

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CrazyJoe, Russia did break the neutrality pact. There is no doubt. However, every sensible nation would do the same. As it was explained in the text of denunciation, two month after the pact was signed, Hitler's Germany invaded Russia by breaking the The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. And Japan was the ally of Germany. Thus, situation drastically changed since April, 13, 1941. As you've correctly stated, it wouldn't matter if the pact would be denounced in 1941 or in 1945.

Now, this is how Russia considers signing things with Japan.

From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Japanese_War :

"Japan issued a declaration of war on 8 February 1904.[16] However, three hours before Japan's declaration of war was received by the Russian Government, the Imperial Japanese Navy attacked the Russian Far East Fleet at Port Arthur. Tsar Nicholas II was stunned by news of the attack. He could not believe that Japan would commit an act of war without a formal declaration,..."

And after the Attack at Pearl Harbor, there is no doubt that Russia did everything right.

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Konsta, thanks for the information.

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@YuriOtani

I wrote to you many times about our reasons of occupation Kirils. My arguments can be understand all people that worried about peace in the world. But you don't worried about peace. You need Kurils because you want make present to USA and bead strategic security of Russia. After 1945 Russia lose many power, time, nervous, money for peace between Russia and Japan. Japan in 1905-1945 never do for strong peace between Japan and Russia. Each man what worried about peace in Asia can understand our motives. Our motives is strategic security of Russia and peace in Asian region.

Now you never do for peace between Russia and Japan. You worried only about your emotions and you don't worried about future Russia and Japan.

I can't many time repeat to you that Russia never do terrible for Japan. Four little islands can't be motives of your emotions. I know that we right.

I understand that you live on Okinawa that occupation of USA army. But you must told about problem to Japanese politic elite who not have courage for change relationship with USA. I wrote many times that frequently change of PM is big error of Japanese politics elite. But your Japanse politics elite don't worried about your security. You must respect of Russia for last fly Tu-95MC that Russia worried about strategic security of Japan more than your Japanese politic elite. Because not China, no USA, not Japanese politic elite don't worried about strategic security of Japan.

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BessonovYan, these islands were home to Japanese people. Second the Russian presence is right up against our home islands. So any military exercise that is held is next to Russia. About the 2 bear bombers, they would be easy kills for the sdf. I did not respect the flights at all. So Comrade why should Japan meekly sign over all 4 islands? Russia is so big and has so many resources while Japan does not. Oh FYI, the Americans did not clean off the Okinawa people like the Russians did the northern territories.

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CrazyJoeSep. 19, 2011 - 12:33AM JST. Konsta, thanks for the information.

No problem. Contrary to what it might look like, I think that the occupation of those islands by Russians was a mistake, similar to the occupation of a 100km border zone in Karelia (Finland). Nobody asked, though :) . Sure, it brought them short-term advantage, but in the long run it will have only negative effects. Some of those are that strategically, their maritime security is now dependent on two bottlenecks. Easy to control. Plus, they could be natural allies with Japanese (instead of Chinese), an alliance with all needed resources and technology in one package. My interest in matters is purely academical, though. I try to find reasons why Russians or Japanese, or others for that matter, behaved in a certain way. For now, I am really curious to where the row of mistrust started.

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YuriOtani

BessonovYan, these islands were home to Japanese people.

Yes they where home to Japanese people and now their not.... I guess thats what happens when you start going around invading and having wars with your neighbors. You eventually lose and when you do you lose territory.

Russia is so big and has so many resources while Japan does not.

Better start invading your neighbors again Yuri

Oh FYI, the Americans did not clean off the Okinawa people like the Russians did the northern territories.

BUT BUT what about all your claims of killing and raping and concentration camps. I guess Russia is the bigger of 2 evils hey Yuri.

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Spidapig24, no Japan will wait and be patient. Yes I agree and Japan was small time compared to the killing that Russia was able. Then again there is still the Gulag in Russia. No Comrade Japan will never surrender to Russian thug. Say the wrong thing and you too will be in the gulag.

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@YuriOtaniSep. 19, 2011 - 08:53AM JST

You know that 4 islands are gateway to Pacific ocean. We need it for our strategic security and military balance in Asia region. Military balance is base of peace of Asian region.

We not doing some terrible to japan like USA in Japan. We know that our motives are clean and decision are right. Really Japan is not lose something.

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