politics

S Korea-Japan territorial dispute flares up again

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Korea teaches it one way, Japan teaches it another way. Who cares.

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japan seems to have a territorial dispute with every country that surrounds it. is it an asian thing or something to fight for every scrap of land?

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Why not simply share it. Problem solved.

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See.... This is what happens when you have a population of 120 million, that still believes they are the victims of ww2.... Why, do they believe this...? Because Japan hasn't been teaching REAL history... So you have an entire population of Japanese that hasn't a clue what their country did the last 100 years, how the rest of Asia suffered, because of Japan's war of aggression....

I don't even think it's the apology stuff so much any more, as it is for a population that needs to be educated, about what their country really did, and that they aren't anyone's victims, and they need to lose this culture of "Victim-Hood," lest, they are doomed to repeat it.... Those that do not learn from history, are doomed to repeat it... and next time, who-ever the victor's are in 20 or 30 years from now, probably the Chinese, might not be nice enough to allow any Japanese to survive...

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Why even start this on Christmas? Shame on SK. Let everyone have peace till the New Year begins. Merry Christmas everyone. Peace on Earth. We got all next year to continue...

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Give it a bone, Korea.

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Draw a line either side of the islets, mark that as the border then give the bloody islets to Taiwan. Its a rock. Get over it, elementary kids fighting...

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Give it a bone, Korea.

I know! What gives? Kim Jeong-il is occupying half their territory and they're doing squat about it. And here they care about some specs of land? What a bunch of fronters!

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Here we go again. This whole argument is like two seagulls at the beach squabbling over the last chip. Thats a great idea above - share them.

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I say the two leaders meet and settle it over "Rock, Scissors, Papers" Best of 3, winner takes all, Pay per view.

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mindovermatter, wholeheartedly agree that Japanese should teach the truth to their citizens about their role in the wars in the past. The Js should learn from their mistakes and take corrective action. This should apply to not just Japanese, to all nations that went plundering and exploiting other nations, colonising and destroying the self-esteem of people of other nations. To this day, there are asian people who suffer due to the damage done by british, dutch, portugese. I am not sure if that information is included in the curriculum of those asian nations. I doubt that.

Should we waste time with all these teritorial disputes when people of all nations are suffering from financial hardships? I think it would be better if country heads spent their time, trying to find a way to help the masses.

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They're interested in fishing and mineral rights from the surrounding area. All the rest is blunder....

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Sharing territory doesn't work. Otherwise, I demand the US government share half of America to the Republic of VG877.

This entire dispute is stupid. The island is functionally Korean, and it will remain Korean. They already have people, patrol boats, flag and buildings on or around the island. And it has been this way for decades. Japan has no realistic way of gaining access to the island, barring war. And the way I see it, Japan might as well be committing suicide if it were to start another war.

Why dispute over an island that you have no realistic chance of winning? Japan is being really immature here. South Korea controls the island and will continue to control it. Deal with it. Quit bringing up these international pissing matches every time you feel insecure. It pisses off and annoys both countries, and ruins bilateral relations.

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Koreans angry and protesting something. Who would imagine that???

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Japan ruled the Korean peninsula as a colony from 1910-45

I think the writer has confused 'colonial rule' with 'invasion'. Korea was never a colony it was invaded by Japan.

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@m5c32

I agree. Those protesting about Japanese textbooks are doing it to release anger they wouldn't dare expressing about their own countries. And Japan will never be able to have textbook that please them.

I don't say Japan history teaching is great. Objectively, I find it on the same level as what is taught in the US. Which means they could just supress the classes and obtain the same level of litteracy (of ignorance) in general population. And I don't think it's the job of states to teach history, I prefer that they don't but instead make sure citizens learn to read, are allowed to express and publish their ideas and have free access to historic documents and publications by local and foreign experts.

Now, when you take a glimpse at texbooks of the 2 Koreas or of China, either you cry, or you burst out laughing. I've decided to take it as a joke.

Islet disputes have purely economic motivations.

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Cos, you can fluently read 4 languages(English, Chinese, Korean, Japanese)?

Mind telling me whats so wrong with Chinese and Korean textbooks? Im not saying this to be snide. I just want to know whats so wrong with those textbooks you mention.

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I can understand the position of the S. Koreans. It is like a bully(Japan who used to beat you up(Korea), and then remind you every once in awile about it.

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I think the writer has confused 'colonial rule' with 'invasion'. Korea was never a colony it was invaded by Japan.

Then one must commend Japan for having the most culturally influential invasion and occupation of an alien state in history. This brutal invasion if you would is preserved in Seoul's historical architecture including Seoul station and Seoul University, South Korea's legal system, business practices, media and more that today's Koreans enjoy for granted because of the brutal Japanese occupation.

I must commend Japan for sincerely suggesting this territorial dispute to the International Court of Justice, an intermediary option that many states including Singapore and Malaysia have used in the past. Koreans on the otherhand simply replied 'NO'.

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For the Koreans, they NEVER let any of these things go. Be it Takeshima, or The Sea of Japan. I used to get so sick of hearing them bicker about these places. The rest of the WORLD views it as THE SEA OF JAPAN and I`m sure if you look at most navigation maps, they are Takeshima. And in all this, they are a bunch of ROCKS! The only reason the Koreans are so touchy on this is on the potential resources in the area. Christmas is holiday in Korea, they just like to bellyache at the Japanese about past wrongs, and to a lesser extend America

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I ask in all seriousness, does the RoK have any actual countries with which it has good relations?

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Neojamal-"Then one must commend Japan for having the most culturally influential invasion and occupation of an alien state in history. This brutal invasion if you would is preserved in Seoul's historical architecture including Seoul station and Seoul University, South Korea's legal system, business practices, media and more that today's Koreans enjoy for granted because of the brutal Japanese occupation"

I dont know, I cant imagine the words Japan and Occupation bringing any positive images in my head. The Japanese murdered thousands of Koreans during the 1923 kanto earth quake. And that was in Japan, It is just hard to believe that the occupation was anything unlike itt other misery filled and murderous occupations.

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I think it's deeper though... it gives the owner fishing (READ: WHALING) rights in that area. Both Japan and Korea rely on fish as an essential part of their diets, so no surprise... it's actually kinda important because the owner can go fishing all around those rocks for a few km.

Meh Japan tried to take over the world, it failed. Now it's trying to take over a bunch of rocks... and still failing. I say we get North Korea to do some nuclear testing in that area and blow up the rocks... then the 2 countries can get angry, and both blow up North Korea in return (giving the land to Korea.) Kill 3 birds with one stone!!

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Then one must commend Japan for having the most culturally influential invasion and occupation of an alien state in history. This brutal invasion if you would is preserved in Seoul's historical architecture including Seoul station and Seoul University, South Korea's legal system, business practices, media and more that today's Koreans enjoy for granted because of the brutal Japanese occupation.

Spoken like a fascist. You're telling me that Korea, the same country whom in ancient times was a pedagogue to Japan. And in recent times has outstripped Japan in electronics and other tech related fields, was unable to modernize without the help of Japan?

Korea never asked Japan to invade them. Those modern ideas and inventions that Japan "gave" to Korea wern't even Japanese inventions. They were western ideas. Why did Korea need Japan when they could have gone straight to the source, without having their country enslaved and humiliated? Dont be a hypocrite. Im pretty sure if roles were reverse, you would be screaming bloody murder at the Koreans.

I must commend Japan for sincerely suggesting this territorial dispute to the International Court of Justice, an intermediary option that many states including Singapore and Malaysia have used in the past. Koreans on the otherhand simply replied 'NO'.

I was waiting for someone to bring up the overdone ICJ excuse.

If Japan wants to go to the ICJ, then why dont they do so? No one is putting a gun up to Japan's head and telling them not to go to court. So whats stopping the Japanese government from going to court? South Korea is certainly not stopping them.

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@ VG877

Why did Korea need Japan when they could have gone straight to the source, without having their country enslaved and humiliated?

It's hard to accept how the way the Koreans adopted western ideas seem to mirror the Japanese way as mere conincidence, may be it is. I respect the ancient Koreans for giving Japan the foundations of civilisation, even though many of these foundations are second hand Chinese sources, you could hardly call me a hypocrit for acknowledging that! Did you know Emperor Akihito is the only reigning monarch who is a descendant of King Sejong the Great?

I was waiting for someone to bring up the overdone ICJ excuse.

Darn right it's an excuse to bitch at the Koreans, ICJ can only intervene when both disputing parties acknowledge its jurisdiction over the case. Japan can go to the Hague but there will be no trial waiting there because Korea won't turn up. What's wrong with the court? Is it the fact that a Wenom is the President and no Korean serves as a Justice of the Court?

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The Japanese govt is merely reminding the younger generation that Japan has a fairly good claim to the islands. Historically and geographically, true and natural. What is wrong with that?

Korea also has a fairly good claim to them. I am sure the world recognizes this.

The answer is certainly not black and white.

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Many Japanese know about the nature of Koreans. Our reaction is "again?"

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@VG877 I am not taking any guess about textbook content.

I read 3 of the languages you list. And our local Asian association regularly makes exhibits about the topic, they show pages of the different books translated into Japanese. Many of our members are Chinese and Korean and they don't like so much the situation in their country. For instance, a Chinese friend does and publishes any research she wants in Japan (she is a specialist of Japanese history, she went to do a PhD here), but in China, she cannot write anything about Japanese history past 1850 without getting problems (her coworkers are told they are not harsh enough against the Japanese, etc, and they get bullied by administration), so she researches only very old stuff, even now in 2009.

What is wrong with their textbooks ? Oh the whole concept. It's far too nationalistic for the century. They are not the only countries in the world doing it. French textbooks of the 1930's were a bit like that too, and even in my time, I remember asking my teachers of some rats had eaten something like 40 pages about our colonial wars (their answer was : "No, about 100 pages."). So as you guess Mao, Kim 1st, Kim 2sd, any guy that was a leader of South-Korea are heros misunderstood by the rest of the world. Their defects are forgotten (or a world coalition of historians invented them). For some details, who cares ? But there were a few big stuff. Then about Japan, they charge the wagon. That gives the impression that 98% of the war victims of those countries were killed by the Japanese. But reality is more 50% by the Japanese (which is huge), and 50% by their own compatriots (while the Japanese were there or later, for totally unrelated reasons). If that was only that... who cares ? They pay for their mistakes because they have let their own criminals keep the power.

My problem is they continue. They make no mention of any apology speech by Japanese Prime Ministers (and there were 16 so far, I think, even if the recipients did judge them sufficient, they exist), or of the ODN development credits by Japan, as an apology. And all mentions about Japan is to relate stupid disputes over those rocks in the middle of the sea. So that gives the impression that Japanese people now, even those whose parents were not even born in 1945, would be still hostile. You can say what you want about Japanese war crimes, that's one thing. But accusing Japan of still being a warmonger nowadays is not fair. And that brings nothing good for present and future international relations. But well, I wouldn't tell a word about it (I don't wake up every morning thinking about Chinese/Korean textbooks) if they were not the ones starting criticizing Japanese textbooks. They shouldn't throw stones while they live in glass houses.

The last time I was in South-Korea, I was walking in Pusan and saw a park. I wanted to enter and the janitor told me "You won't like it, I don't like showing to foreigners...ok, if you insist, but I let you in for free.". Inside there was a memorial about Japanese invasion, hundreds of years ago. And groups of kids in school uniforms brought there by their teachers and spitting at the images of those [enter insult) Japanese. Teachers were encouraging them. I went to talk to the teachers, in Japanese (on purpose), they were nice guys, they spoke perfect Japanese, one had done a ryugaku of several years and they told me they visited Japan sometimes, had friends, etc. So why ? "Oh, they are kids. It's like a game... And well, we have to teach a curriculum, not what we think... Is it nationalistic ? You're kidding girl ? Yes of course, it is. And the boys will do military service... No, no, personnally, we agree with you, but we won't tell it to our pupils, they'd repeat it and older teachers and school directors want us to teach the patriotic history... But don't worry, adults are intelligent, they make the difference between history and people living now.". They really do ? You wouldn't say. I find the Korean teaching methods worrying. I really had the feeling they lived in a very different world from mine, even if apparently they now have the economic development, the education and freedom to travel. The teachers told what all nationalistic Koreans tell me : "But our families were victim... oh, you are from Lorraine, so your family lived German occupation ? ...and they died ? kids were orphans ? they lost all ? So you must hate German people, no ?". Hell no ! Why would I ? I never even considered it. My ancestors that were victims never hated their German acquaintances, only German leaders and officers using unnecessary cruelty. They always said that when there is a war, small people of both side are in the same boat, the one of losers and sufferers. And once the war was finished, they first idea was not to revenge, but to find a way to prevent war from occuring again. Are Koreans dumber ? Well, they can choose to be.

Dont be a hypocrite. Im pretty sure if roles were reverse, you would be screaming bloody murder at the Koreans.

An idiot would.

If I saw any scene like that of Pusan in another country, I would find it equally weird. In Japan, I haven't so far. Many Japanese teachers are "leftists". The local ones bring their students to see all the exhibits about Korea and China, including those about Nankin events, about Japan wartime science experiments. I know Osaka is not all Japan. So maybe you guys have seen people pushing kids to be nationalistic hatred somewhere in Japan ?

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Japan should sign over those rocks to the ROK and be done with it. If these precious rocks were so important why didn't they have some people out there? No time to settle this with the Republic of Korea and be done. About the history there is nothing that can be done about it. These rocks are unimportant and if there was gas there nobody has bothered to drill for it. If the ROK wants to cause trouble over a schoolbook there has to be more beneath it. Let them have their way now but something else will come up to cause problems as it always does.

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@cos

I think you need to first study the history of the Japanese before you say things such as this. It is made clear by the statement of errors and stupid ideas of the foreign influence and "subversion" that we think that we are wrong, is it not?

Please learn about the truths of the situations first.

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Korea...was unable to modernize without the help of Japan?

Maybe. Maybe not. The question is, why didn't they?

Those modern ideas and inventions that Japan "gave" to Korea wern't even Japanese inventions.... Why did Korea need Japan when they could have gone straight to the source.

Again, why didn't they? According to scholar Donald S. Macdonald

By the end of the colonial period, Japan had built an extensive infrastructure of roads, railroads, ports, electrical power, and government buildings Many programs drafted in Korea in the 1920s and 1930s originated in policies drafted in Japan during the Meiji period (1868-1912).

So, while colonization may not have been morally correct (but a recognized practice at the time), it did provided some benefits to the country.

But Korea is still screaming for blood 60+ years later. They aren't satisfied with Takeshima. They want Tsushima "back" too (even though they only had it for a short time in something like 1400).

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this is all about what little gas or oil is available near the islands and nothing more. Neither country prior to that discovery really cared but now they do, since both countries are so dependent on external sources of energy. It's silly that such a resource must be squabbled over instead of jointly controlled.

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Many of us know about the nature of Japanese. Our reaction is "again"?

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Unfortunately sf2K, although what you say is true, Korea wouldn't be able to understand the concept of 'joint control'.

It's not even 'all or nothing'.

It's just 'Mine, and that's the end of the argument'. WTF?

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japan seems to have a territorial dispute with every country that >surrounds it.

That's a very often repeated erroneous comment.It appears that way because you are reading a site on Japan news and events. A sampling of the number of territorial disputes in Asia shows that Japan is far down the list. China-15, India-18, Taiwan-7, Skorea-6, Japan-5.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_disputes#In_Asia_and_the_Pacific

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Many of us know about the nature of Japanese. Our reaction is "again"?

This Statement clearly shows that you do not. Who is this "us"? THe U.S. has been trying to remarm Japan since the Korean war without success because of their peace constitution.

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OssanUSA/Ultra/America; The US do not want Japan behaving in this childlike manner regarding these islands. The US recognises the isalnds as Korean.

The Japanese peace constitution is forced on them due to their evil military escapades including invading Korea.

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No, the US does not recognize them as Korean.

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I was waiting for someone to bring up the overdone ICJ excuse. If Japan wants to go to the ICJ, then why dont they do so? No one is >putting a gun up to Japan's head and telling them not to go to court. So >whats stopping the Japanese government from going to court? South Korea >is certainly not stopping them.

Yes they are. SKorea has twice refused Japan's request to settle this issue before the ICJ. While the Skorean govt remains silent on it's reasons for refusal (obviously because they aren't confident of winning), SKorean nationalists claim that any ICJ judgement would be "biased" againast them. Talk about a lame "excuse".

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Bush recognised these islets as being Korean late in his second term.

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No, he pulled out of making a declaration. http://bomanchu.blog81.fc2.com/blog-entry-48.html

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Quote from original news which I remember reading at the time. Rice was to visit South Korea and she needed to keep them sweet.

Wilder noted that U.S. policy remained that Washington was neutral and that Japan and South Korea needed to resolve the dispute diplomatically.

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OssanUSA/Ultra/America; The US do not want Japan behaving in this >childlike manner regarding these islands. The US recognises the isalnds >as Korean.

The US and Allies gave several islands in the SEA OF JAPAN to SKorea under the 1951 San Francisco treaty. SKorea requested that these Liancourt Rocks be added to the list. We refused. The US does NOT recignize these rocks as being SKorean so you can get that lie out of your head. US policy is not to recognize either parties' claim. Considering that they are useless rocks most of us in the US sees SKorea as being the one acting childish particulary by avoiding permanent ICJ settlement of the issue.

The Japanese peace constitution is forced on them due to their evil >military escapades including invading Korea.

Wrong. Korea was part of the Japanese Empire, with a quarter million Koreans fighting in the Imperial Japanese armed forces as Japanese citizens. That's because Korea was never "invaded" as China and other Asian nations were. The peace consitution was forced on them as am alternative to prosecution of their Emperor.

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OssanAmerica - Those Koreans were unwillingly pressed into service. They did not willingly volunteer, even if Imperial Japanese Records say that they did. Generally, Koreans were pressed to fight the Allies with threats made against their families if they chose not to. Korea WAS invaded in 1895 followign the Sino-Japanese War, in which Japan illegally netered Choseon Territory, claiming that the Imperial Army had "won" it from the Chinese folowign the end of the Sino-Japanese War. The sad fact is, China never owned the Korean Peninsula, so it wasn't theirs to be "won" from in the first place. The reason that China didn't own the Korean Peninsula was because of one man - Yi Sunsin, possibly the greatest Admiral in History. So profound and complete were Admiral Yi's victories over both the Chinese Army then the Japanese Navy that for 300 years, following Hideyoshi's last invasion of Korea, Korea was independent. Japan's invasion in 1895 and later, use Korea as a staging point for their incursions into Manchuria in 1905 and 1931, were illegal and uncalled for. Not only were the invasion, occupation, and repression and subjugation of the Koreans and Korea illegal, but they were entirely evil, merely for the exploitation of Korean Natural Resources, the attempt to erase Korean Culture, History, and Languages, and the enslavement of countless women as "comfort women" and men as conscripts for the Imperial Army. Had Japan had her way, Korea would not exist today as it does....

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NeoJamal

It's hard to accept how the way the Koreans adopted western ideas seem to mirror the Japanese way as mere conincidence, may be it is.

Its not a coincidence. Are you forgetting what happened between 1910-1945? Do you honestly believe Korea needed Japan's help in westernizing? Remember, Korea never asked for Japan's "help". Nor was the concept of westernization and western technology invented by the Japanese. So why exactly did the Japanese come uninvited?

I respect the ancient Koreans for giving Japan the foundations of civilisation, even though many of these foundations are second hand Chinese sources, you could hardly call me a hypocrit for acknowledging that!

Theres a huge difference between Korea giving Japan the foundations of its civilization, versus the Japanese coming in uninvited, murdering those who resisted and building modern factories for Koreans to work in as slaves. Huge difference.

Darn right it's an excuse to bitch at the Koreans, ICJ can only intervene when both disputing parties acknowledge its jurisdiction over the case. Japan can go to the Hague but there will be no trial waiting there because Korea won't turn up. What's wrong with the court?

You don't really understand how the ICJ works. So im going to make this simple for you. Answer the following questions. Why does Japan need Korea's permission to go to court. Why can't Japan go to court by itself? Do you know what disputed means? And do you know what sovereign territory means?

Is it the fact that a Wenom is the President and no Korean serves as a Justice of the Court?

The current president of Korea is Japanese? Since when? And why is the current Secretary General of the UN-Korean rather than Japanese.

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Cos

So in other words, you do not speak the language of the countries textbooks you criticize as innacurate. So what exactly gives you the right to criticize a book if you dont even understand what is being said? Or is it personal bias? I can tell its personal bias simply by looking at your major points. Rather than giving examples of historical inaccuracies found within the books you criticize, you instead resort to stories about your personal life.

Some of your examples are preposterous. You mention that Korean and Chinese books are innaccurate because they lay 98% of the blame on Japan and 2% on their compatriots. Really now? Care to tell me where you got those numbers? And why its so wrong to lay most of the blame towards the Japanese?

Apologies, the ODA etc. You believe that a couple of half hearted apologies and the ODA is enough to settle all historical grievances. In other words, you are basically setting a price on human lives. And that is your biggest mistake. No amount of money and "regret" will bring back the lives lost or fix the evils of the past. Those apologies by Japanese officials would at the very least be accepted if they wern't so insincere. And I mean insincere as in white washing history or justifying the invasions. Just look at Jamal if you want an example.

And last but not least, your logic does not work both ways. You argue that Japan's education is superior due to leftist teachers(what about the rightists?) and their students visiting exhibits on wartime atrocities. Well then, what exactly do you want Korean and Chinese teachers to do? Visit Yasunki and wave imperial Japanese flags? Are you forgetting who the true victims of the war were? It doesnt work both ways because one side was the aggressor, and the other side the victim.

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Knowitall

Maybe. Maybe not. The question is, why didn't they? Again, why didn't they? According to scholar Donald S. Macdonald

So, while colonization may not have been morally correct (but a recognized practice at the time), it did provided some benefits to the country.

Oh I dont know..... maybe it was due the thousands of uninvited Japanese "guests" who decided one day that Korea should be a part of Japan. You should do some more research on the subject. Korea had electricity, steam engines, box cars, western medicine, western schools, modern sewage treatment, water purification and more before the Japanese arm arrived. Western advisers were brought in to help the Korean government modernize.

But then the Japanese came...

But Korea is still screaming for blood 60+ years later. They aren't satisfied with Takeshima. They want Tsushima "back" too (even though they only had it for a short time in something like 1400).

Wrong. Go look up the Korean governments official stance on Tsushima.

Ossan

Do you even know what is written in San Francisco treaty. Or are you parroting right wing Japanese blogs and 2ch again? Didnt you blame Koreans for the rape of Nanking in another article? Where do you get your source material?

The US government does recognize Korea as having sovereign/administrative control over the islands. What that means, is that it recognizes Korea as having ownership of the island. If a US naval destroyer, tourist or even the President of the United States wanted to visit the island. Then the US government would request the South Korean government for permission. Not the Japanese government.

What the US however refuses to do however, is side with either country in the dispute. They remain neutral while at the same time recognizing that Korea controls the island. In other words, the US government considers the Liancourt islands to be Korean, but refuses to take sides in the debate.

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Knowitall

Maybe. Maybe not. The question is, why didn't they? Again, why didn't they? According to scholar Donald S. Macdonald

So, while colonization may not have been morally correct (but a recognized practice at the time), it did provided some benefits to the country.

Oh I dont know..... maybe it was due the thousands of uninvited Japanese "guests" who decided one day that Korea should be a part of Japan. You should do some more research on the subject. Korea had electricity, steam engines, box cars, western medicine, western schools, modern sewage treatment, water purification and more before the Japanese arm arrived. Western advisers were brought in to help the Korean government modernize.

But then the Japanese came...

But Korea is still screaming for blood 60+ years later. They aren't satisfied with Takeshima. They want Tsushima "back" too (even though they only had it for a short time in something like 1400).

Wrong. Go look up the Korean governments official stance on Tsushima.

Ossan

Ossan

Do you even know what is written in San Francisco treaty. Or are you parroting right wing Japanese blogs and 2ch again? Didnt you blame Koreans for the rape of Nanking in another article? Where do you get your source material?

The US government does recognize Korea as having sovereign/administrative control over the islands. What that means, is that it recognizes Korea as having ownership of the island. It is functionally Korean territory. If a US naval destroyer, tourist or even the President of the United States wanted to visit the island. Then the US government would request the South Korean government for permission. Not the Japanese government.

What the US however refuses to do however, is side with either country in the dispute. They remain neutral while at the same time recognizing that Korea controls the island. In other words, the US government considers the Liancourt islands to be Korean, but refuses to take sides in the debate.

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VG877, excellent arguments from your side. Very dignified style of writing. Just one question? In today's context, do you think that the future generations of both countries should be taught these things? What good would it do for both countries?

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This is serious.

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Ok. South Korean troops are stationed on the Dokdo islands right? No one disputes that.

The Japanese can bitch and moan about the islets being Japanese territory all they want. It doesn't matter much.

These islets are South Korean territory.

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Ordinary Koreans and Japanese really don't care. It's the elite few at the top who drag everyone into war.

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Triple888, you are right about "ordinary" Japanese and Koreans. I could care less about some rocks in the sea between Japan and Korea. Korea has a better case since they occupied these islands without force. Do you think that Tsushima jima is part of Korea as well? 40k plus Japanese live there and Japan will defend them but Korea would have to be the aggressor. I do not think this will happen. I say again Japan should sign something saying these ROCKS are part of Korea. About the other posters, Japan was wrong in invading Korea using military force. If it wanted the benefits of an Industrial Korea it should of invested its money and talnet. It could of been done in a way that Japan Korea could of been friends. Think of what was lost.

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I think the Korean psyche (whether NK or SK) is rather susceptible to gov't brainwashing. I have taught a lot of both Japanese and Korean students and the difference always cracks me up. The Japanese are for the most part apathetic about the history while the Koreans froth at the mouth with vitriol whenever the past rears its ugly head. They go as far as to vandalize classroom material to assert themselves, like destroying a map purchased by yours truly because it has Sea of Japan labeled. Very childish. I can only believe this to be from the brainwashing they receive from childhood. I mean, the males all need to go to the military and they have to grow up believing that 2 year period to be necessary. It also seems to breed the homophobia which is pervasive in Korea. They just hate soooo much. It is a militaristic state. They are constantly on a war footing. The gov't has to direct that at somebody, and they do. Today it is at text books and rock islands. Gotta keep the national psyche busy and full of anger. Wish there was an in between where neither nationalism nor apathy were the prevailing force.

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VG877

Yes I do know what was written in the San Freanciusco Treaty. YOU obviously don't since you're just another Korean Nationalist parroting the same old pro-korean nonsense. No the United States does not recognize SKorean or Japanese sovereignty. http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200807/200807280016.html

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YuriOtani, once Japan kicks out the Americans and becomes "neutral" the Americans will have a harder time helping the ROK. I think it is a civil war in Korea and none of Japans business. Yes, what a nice date to spout their discord, the birthday of Jesus. No Japan needs to stay out of the Koreans business. Getting involved in their affairs only leads to problems. Even if the Americans stay we can deny them the right to use their bases. If South Korea does not want to be friends with Japan so be it!

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Ossan,

While it is true that the US does not recognize South Korean or Japanese sovereignty over the Dokdo islets, George Bush certainly backed the reinstatement of recognition of South Korean ownership in 2008:

'AHEAD of his Seoul visit next week, George W. Bush has made a US government agency reinstate recognition of South Korea's ownership of the Dokdo islets, the subject of an angry territorial dispute with Japan. "I asked (Secretary of State) Condi Rice to review it, and the database will be restored where it was seven days ago," Mr Bush told Korean, Thai and Chinese reporters at the White House.'

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/bush-backs-seoul-on-naming/story-e6frg6t6-1111117073373

Folks, it's South Korean territory. Time to move on.

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While it is true that the US does not recognize South Korean or Japanese >sovereignty over the Dokdo islets, George Bush certainly backed the >reinstatement of recognition of South Korean ownership in 2008:

But the fact remains that it was returned to an UNDESIGNATED SOVEREINTY STATUS where it remains today. And I think we all know that GW Bush is no longer in office so he's rather irrelevant to the issue now.

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OssanAmerica - Those Koreans were unwillingly pressed into service. They >did not willingly volunteer, even if Imperial Japanese Records say that >they did.

Wrong. The IJA had a recruitment quota for Koreans and the total figures of Kotreans who enlisted, about 240,000 far exceeded those quotas. Claiming that all Korean who served in the Imperial Japanese forces were "forced to do so" has been a long standing lame excuse repeated by Koreans. However the sheer numbers as well as the fact that many Koreans rose to officer rank including a couple high enough to have been charged with war crimes by the victorious allies belie this long repeated lie.

Korea WAS invaded in 1895 followign the Sino-Japanese War, in which >Japan illegally netered Choseon Territory, claiming that the Imperial >Army had "won" it from the Chinese folowign the end of the Sino-Japanese >War. The sad fact is, China never owned the Korean Peninsula, so it >wasn't theirs to be "won" from in the first place.

Japanese troops entered Korea AFTER Chinese troops entered Korea. The fighting was between Chinese and Japanese troops. Not between Japanese troops and Korean troops. China, or specifically the Qing Dynasty DID for all intents and purposes own Korea as it had long been a vassal state. And all this time Korea was crumbling as a state, and korean leaders themselves were divided into pro-China and pro-Japan parties.One of the objectives that Imperial Japan had in the 1894 sino-japanese war was to get the Qing Dynasty to recognize Korea's independence from them, a necessary step towards the annexation that followed in 1910. Sorry, but Korea was NEVER invaded by Japan the way China was.

The reason that China didn't own the Korean Peninsula was because of one >man - Yi Sunsin, possibly the greatest Admiral in History.

Yes yes you can be proud.

Korea was independent. Japan's invasion in 1895 and later, use Korea as >a staging point for their incursions into Manchuria in 1905 and 1931, >were illegal and uncalled for.

It sucked to be a weak backwards country in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Especially when the Korean Penninsula was, as a German military advisor told the Japanese, "a dagger aimed right at the heart of Japan". No one can deny tghe strategic importance of the Korean penninsula, and I suspect the Japanese never forgot that the combined Mongol, Chinese,Korean invasion fleets of the 13th century came from Korea. At the time colonialism was the way of the world, and as I said, it sucked to be a weak country.

Not only were the invasion, occupation, and repression and subjugation >of the Koreans and Korea illegal, but they were entirely evil, merely >for the exploitation of Korean Natural Resources, the attempt to erase >Korean Culture, History, and Languages, and

Yes that often happens under colonial rule. One thing that's unusual thogh is that Japan gave all Koreans Japanese citizenship. That's rather unheard of in European colonialsm.

the enslavement of countless women as "comfort women" and men as >conscripts for the Imperial Army.

Yes some 250,000 comfort women to serve the IJA soldiers which included 240,000 Koreans. There are photographs of signs showing the rates for the comfort women and the Koreans actually got a discount. But the Chinese got an even bigger discount.

Had Japan had her way, Korea would not exist today as it does

And if Japan had not annexed Korea in 1910, amd Korea had remained a vassal state of a crumbling Qing Dynasty? All speculation.

Moderator: All readers, please stay on topic. From here on, posts that do not focus on the territorial dispute will be removed.

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Meanringo's got it right. Such agressiveness from the Koreans. Always the "I'm right, you're wrong" approach.

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Well, having looked at the site of the US Board on Geographic Names and the disclaimer there http://geonames.usgs.gov/foreign/index.html "The names, variants and associated data may not reflect the views of the United States Government on the sovereignty over geographic features." it has become clear to me that Bush was aware that someone was trying to use the site as proof of ownership.

He asked the authorities to change the wording to something more neutral. The South Koreans kicked up an almighty fuss, so Bush in a fluster got Rice round and told her to look at it. They attempted to make it more neutral, in line with their true feelings on the subject, and better to reflect the actual situation, but some people in South Korea got more and more upset. The problem for Bush was the success of upcoming talks and if I recall, the desperate need for the US side to get South Koreans eating US beef again.

The result was a mishmash, made worse by the kind of reporting in muchroomcloud's link to the Australian above.

None of this changes anything. We need a cool independent look at the situation, giving both sides an opportunity to express their considered views, using lawyers. Japan may even decide to cede thier rights, dependent on certain guarantees. One side might even use this as a moment to express generosity. Who knows?

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nationalism is the last refuge of the damned.

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This island issue between Japan could be settled very simply if both sides would bother to listen. I kidna' tend to side with Korea on this one, but maybe I'm a bit biased, seeing how half of my family is Korean.

OssanAmerica - Please feel free to name those high-ranking officers from Korea, who were charged with War Crimes. No, it is not an oft-repeated lie, as I have personally spoken to people in Korea who are old enough to remember the press gangs for service in the Imperial Japanese Army coming and "pressing" their fathers, uncles, and brothers into service, most never returning to Korea again, and I'll take their personal testimony and memories over your personal conjecture any day ofthe week. You may call their testimonies lies, but you'd be akin to those in Germany who defended the Third Reich's slaughter of untermenschen claiming that the Slaves "wanted" to work for Germany...

Sure, the Chinese "invaded" first.....between 1600 and 1620, when the Manchus tried to invade Korea and were repulsed time and time again. Between 1620 and 1895, there were no outside invasions of Korea. According to some sites that I've seen and studied, while the Chinese Beiyan Regime in the late 1800s viewed Korea as their tributary state, nothing was mentioned about the Beiyan Army entering Korean Territory or even crossing the Yalu River in the lead-up to the Sino-Japanese War. It wasn't until after hostilities commenced between China and Japan that Japanese forces invaded Korea first, overthrew the Emperor of Korea after capturing Seoul, and installed a Pro-Japan government in its place (so much for those records you say exist showing Imperial Army Quotas being "joyfully" filled by Korean "volunteers"), then proceeded to use Korea as a staging ground for further incursions into Manchuria and China Proper(they did the same thign in 1905 agaisnt the Russians).

And yes, as an American, I can be very proud of Admiral Yi, even more so than Admiral Nelson of Great Britain. Look up his record for yourself, if you don't trust my words, and further, read what Admiral Togo - the Hero of the Russo-Japanese War and victor of the Battle of Tsushima - had to say about him, if you disagree.

Yes, Korea was so weak that for the entirity fo the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, outside nations basically left them alone militarily. Yes, Korea was of great strategic importance, but they were also an Independent Nation, whose sovereignty was demolished by the Imperial Japanese War Machine.

Yes, yes, valuable Japanese citizenship. Still looked upon as a high commodity by Both Koreas today (wonders why his wife is rather seeking US Citizenship and not Japanese). All the while, not a word of apology or reparition from the Imperial Japanese Government for the systematic destruction of an entire culture and society. I'm sure the Koreans should be rightfully thankful, as I'm also sure the Chinese should be following two major Japanese Invasions and barbarism inside of forty years.

Signs? Where? POut up or shut up, with all due respect. And even if your words are true, which is better: living a life free from sexual enslavement, or living a life of the most basic and intimate violation every day for years on end? And how much dinero did these comfort women, as employed by the Imperial Army, see? How many of them were taken from their homes and ripped away from their families, most of them never to see them again?

Again, Korea was INDEPENDENT of China. INDEPENDENT means having their own government, their own laws, their own military, and their own way of life.

With Korea's current Preisdent, I doubt he will budge from his position. It is no surprise that Hatoyama wants to "change things" again, as he has done similarly with regards to the Kadena Base situation with the USA. hopefully, the Dokdo/Takeshima thing will be rectified peacefully....

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Ossan

If the President of the United states needed to visit Dokdo, he would have to request the permission of the South Korean government. Not the Japanese government. Do you know why that is? Because the US government recognizes Korea's sovereignty over the island. It recognizes that Korea administers and controls the territory. The US abides by Korea's EEZ and territorial rules when dealing with Dokdo. Not Japans EEZ and territorial rules. Japan has absolutely no say in this dispute. All the cards are on Korea's table. And the US knows this very well. The US refuses to take sides in this dispute, while at the same time recognizing that Korea's sovereignty over the islands. Which in all honesty can be translated into-

""The US sides with Korea in this dispute. However since it doesnt want to hurt Japan's feelings, it will claim neutrality.""

The US governments neutrality stance is merely lip service. Its what Japan wants to hear, but is far from the truth. Its true that the Board of Geographic names changed the Liancourt rocks from soverign Korean territory to neutral territory. But that was only for a whopping 6 days. 6 whole days! After that, the US government reaffirmed that the island belonged to Korea. Which was basically a punch to the gut of "Takeshima" supporters. Because it showed once again that the US government was on Korea's side.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/07/113_28523.html

As for your other remarks on Korean history, im going to take you as seriously as I take cartoons. Your credibility has been missing ever since you blamed Koreans for the rape of nanking.

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I am U.S.A.-born Korean citizen and I found many interesting posts that are put up here..First of all, why does Japan claim Tokdo to be their own territory? I just don't understand their logic and way of thinking..This false claim by Japan could make more Japanese to have anti-Korean feelings..If the U.S.Army leaves Korea and Japan then who knows whether there will be a naval battle over Tokdo island..If Japan DOES attack Korea again like they did in 1910 over Tokdo islets, Korea will definitely fight back at Japanese..So take my advice!! Stop bullying Korea and sort out your own problems in a nice fashion..

I just hate it when Japan keeps on mumbling that Tokdo belongs to them..Besides Japan has plenty of grievances with other foreign powers such as the U.S.A. over Okinawa bases relocation issues and other island disputes with Russia & China respectively..Japan please STOP annoying Korea..We Koreans have had enough being under 36 years of colonial rule until the U.S.Air Force dropped 2 A-bombs on 2 Japanese cities..I would like to ask all Japanese people please treat Korea fairly & nicely..Koreans have never hurt Japanese people's feelings because Korea NEVER colonized Japan in any way or form and I ask Japan to give up its own arrogance and learn more humility towards its neighbours like Korea..Japan is an Asian nation who knows the importance of being humble-minded which is what Buddha and Confucianism has taught in ancient Asian civilization..Other than Korea-Japan lingering disputes which I firmly will adhere to Korea's side I admire and like Japan too and I enjoyed dating cute Japanese girls..I am not against Japanese people just want Korea and Japan atone for past Japan's sins in Korea and quickly move ahead towards a brighter future which requires that Korea and Japan not only to make up or reconcile each other but put a complete end to useless discussions on time-consuming issues such as Japan's militaristic behaviour in Korea from 1910~1945..Young people from both countries(Korea+Japan) appreciate each other's cultures and there has been a subtle shift in the mode or way of thinking in how young Koreans & Japanese view each other..

I too went with my friend to Tokyo and although the stay was rather short since my friend had to return to Seoul on Sunday evening just in time to get back to his own work,I really enjoyed Tokyo for 1 night & 2 days..I tried to speak in English with Japanese people and only a few understood it..Many foreigners complain that Koreans and Japanese speak poor English which I agree of course..Funny how in Tokyo I saw less than 5 U.S.A. automobiles while when I was in the U.S.A. I saw too many Toyotas and other Japanese brands of auto-makers..Seoul too has more than 90% Korean cars like Hyundai,GM Daewoo,Renault Samsung,Kia & Ssangyong..

So in order to prevent this kind of flare-up over Tokdo islet issue,both sides need to refrain from making inflammatory remarks about each other and be polite & be nice..Korea and Japan need to have more frank discussions about their bilateral relationships and issues that are mind-boggling..More dialogues on this sensitive islet issue without being entangled in fiery disputes or emotional conflicts will do neither side any good at all and let's act now before it's too late..Thanks And Have A Nice Day!!!

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OssanAmerica - Please feel free to name those high-ranking officers from >Korea, who were charged with War Crimes.

Bluetiger-

"The highest-ranking Korean to be prosecuted after the war is Lieutenant General Hong Sa-ik, who was in command of all the Japanese prisoner-of-war camps in the Philippines."

"After the war, 148 Koreans were convicted of Class B and C war crimes, 23 of whom were sentenced to death (compared to 920 Japanese who were sentenced to death), including Korean prison guards who were particularly notorious for their brutality during the war. Justice Bert Röling, who represented the Netherlands at the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal, noted that "many of the commanders and guards in POW camps were Koreans - the Japanese apparently did not trust them as soldiers - and it is said that they were sometimes far more cruel than the Japanese."

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Korea_under_Japanese_rule?t=5.

Bluetiger- I'd love to go on with you about this but the moderator has stated; "Moderator: All readers, please stay on topic. From here on, posts that do not focus on the territorial dispute will be removed."

Therefore I will abstain from any further postings on this issue bnut I do hope that I've opened your eyes to the reality the the general view held by many Koreans about the Japanese-Korean relationship is quite one-sided and conveniently ignores alot of facts. This is actually quite pertinent to the territorial issue at hand because there has yet to be a true understanding of the relationship reached by SKorea and Japan which is why disputes of this sort and the aggressive stance taken exists.

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"As for your other remarks on Korean history, im going to take you as seriously as I take cartoons. Your credibility has been missing ever since you blamed Koreans for the rape of nanking."

VG877 I corrected a poster who claimed that Nanking was in Korea and that the IJA pillaged and raped through Korea. That was China not Korea. I have never blamed Koreans for the rape of Nanjing, a rather absurd scenario. Please abstain from posting utter nonsense.

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About the Dokdo rocks, Japan needs to sign them over to Korea and Korea need to drop all claims to Takeshima. This would be right and proper. Somehow I doubt it will end the problems, most self created by Korea but Japan needs to try. SO what do you the gentle readers think?

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oops, put the wrong name for Korea to drop claims, I meant to write Tsushima. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsushima_Island. Instead I started writing Takeshima or the rocks of the ROK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liancourt_Rocks. So please insert Tsushima over Takeshima. My teachers in high school always claimed I was lazy. I get use to cut an paste and need to be more careful. Deep 90 degree bow, please accept my apologies.

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What was Japan geographic basis for annexing Dokdo/Takeshima in 1905? During the Russo~Japanese War of 1904~1905 the Japanese Navy's Director Kimotsuki Kenko examined a map of the Dokdo Takeshima region and determined Liancourt Rocks were closer to Japan's mainland than Korea. From this simple baseline distance comparison Japan unilaterally decided they should annex the islets. Absolutely no consideration was given to Dokdo's most proximate island, Chosun's Ulleungdo. In addition, because Japan had already militarily occupied the Korean peninsula no international boundary was drawn between Japan-Korea after the 1905 incorporation of Liancourt Rocks. Japan's past reasoning for annexing Dokdo Takeshima cannot be considered as an equitable premise in solving this territorial dispute in today's modern world.

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I personally don't see anything productive on this issue. Do Korean authorities want to educate Korean kids in a way to grow anti-Japanese sentiment just like Japanese government has been doing to Japanese students in order to purify their past for the last decade??? That doesn't bring anything but unnecessary tension and feud.

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YuriOtani

There is no territorial dispute between Korea and Japan over Tsushima. The Korean government does not claim or recognize Tushima as Korean territory. You are creating a dispute over nothing.

sfjp330

Good point. Japan's claim to the island(Liancourt rocks) stems from its 1905 illegal theft of the island which broke international law. International law at the time and even today prohibits the taking of land for military purposes and the taking of land without the consent and awareness of neibhoring countries. Japan broke both laws. After WWII, Japan agreed to give back all territories it took from Korea by military force.

The fact of the matter is, Japan has no legitimate claim to the island. The 1905 claim cannot be used in court to support their cause, because it was entirely illegal. The sad fact is, Japans entire Takeshima ideology stems from its illegal 1905 theft. Which they still believe is legitimate.

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VG877, you did not comment on my proposal to fix this. The only reason I included Tsushima is because of a local government or was it a group has recently claimed it for Korea. Most Japanese including me do not care about the Dokdo islands. If Korea wants then it is ok with me. The offical ceding of the Tsusshima island will balance things out. Make the Japanese people think they got something.. I am upset because a jr high school book can cause such distress. Am also upset the Korean people hate the people of Okinawa. What have we done to the Korean people?

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I am kind of unsure why YuriOtani thinks Koreans hate Okinawa people..What makes you think of that I wonder?? Never heard of Koreans detesting Okinawans when I am in Korea..In fact anti-U.S. base Okinawan activists come and fly all the way to Korea and talk to Koreans who are also anti-U.S. base activists in Korea's U.S.Army bases..

Korea and Japan are still struggling to get along with each other..They set up full diplomatic relations in 1965 at the behest of the U.S. Government..In 1992, Korea and China set up embassies in each other's capitals and they have no problem getting along well each other..If this pattern continues then Japan will feel left out while Koreans are getting closer to Chinese..So why is it so darn difficult for Korea-Japan relations to advance forward???..I am disturbed by the fact that Koreans hate Japan more than the Chinese do and this also makes Japanese unhappy towards Korea..More efforts are required to bring Korea-Japan together..I got nothing against Japan just hoping lesser Japanese people will hate Korea less than before..

I chatted over the phone with a Japanese girl from Ehime Prefecture near Hiroshima when both of us were in Boston,U.S.A. and she told me that Japanese people originated from Korean Peninsula..Another American male student said the same thing about Japanese people originating from Korea..Even Emperor Akihito mentioned that one of his relatives come from Baekchae(백제) kingdom in ancient Korean peninsula..

By the way do Japanese people living in Japan know that Japan has already started to dig in the undersea tunnel to link eventually to Pusan,Korea? I got this information from a Korean Cable Channel YTN but Korea isn't doing anything to dig in the tunnel from their side..Besides both Korea + Japan Governments haven't reached common understandings on this undersea tunnel between two countries and yet again Japan is working hard to continue the construct the undersea tunnel to Korea..This maybe completed in 10~15 years time from now on and so I do see a glimmer of hope just as the light will be seen at the end of the tunnel..Such positive step-by-step moves by Japan and even Korea could help find an affirmative solution on Tokto islet issue..And once the tunnel is ready to go into operation Japanese people can drive cars or travel by railways to Korea,China,Russia and even Europe too!!!

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Most every Korean doesn't differentiate between 'Japanese' and 'Okinawan'. They're all Japanese to them.

As far as I know, even the Japanese government says they're all one people, too, i.e. 'Japanese'. Aside from malcontents who enjoy each other's company, Koreans don't care or know enough to make any distinction between them.

-And the Korea-directed 'hate' ain't what it was.

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Oh!I just forgot to add that Japan dug in the tunnel more than 500 m from their side..There is still some lingering tensions between Korea and Japan but the overall trend is that compared to the past Korea-Japan ties are ameliorating for the better and next generation who will live in peace..

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My understanding is that before 1905 no country had ever recognized nor ruled the island as part of its own territory, though it was actually used for Japanese fishery since at least early 17th century, during which the fishermen from around Shimane did not receive any protest from Chosun dynasty government. Memories of idyllically productive days gone by.

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Yuri Otani

VG877, you did not comment on my proposal to fix this. The only reason I included Tsushima is because of a local government or was it a group has recently claimed it for Korea. Most Japanese including me do not care about the Dokdo islands. If Korea wants then it is ok with me. The offical ceding of the Tsusshima island will balance things out. Make the Japanese people think they got something.. I am upset because a jr high school book can cause such distress. Am also upset the Korean people hate the people of Okinawa. What have we done to the Korean people?

I did not comment, because your your proposal doesn't work. You state that Japan should sign the islands over to South Korea in exchange for Korea dropping all claims to Tsushima. How is that possible when Korea currently controls every pebble and droplet of water on and around the island? What exactly is there to sign over? And since when did the South Korean government ever claim Tsushima as Korean territory? Please stop these baseless accusations of Koreans trying to steal Tsushima. There may be Korean fringe groups who want to take control of Tsushima, but there are also Japanese fringe groups who wish to reinstate the Emperor and start world war 3.

The only way to stop these fringe groups is to outlaw freedom of speech. Which is a definite no-no in a democracy.

As for the Okinawans. Honestly, most Koreans probably do not even know what an Okinawan is. To them, you are all Japanese.

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most Koreans probably do not even know what an Okinawan is.

Really ? What uneducated folks they are in your opinion ! And they all dare commenting Japanese textbooks they have never seen. LOL

Funny that all you found to answer me is that I would be incompetent and I have no right to comment, VG877.

That's just as I said, South-Korean youths are taught history in a disproportionate way. They end up believing their country is the center of earth, the biggest victim of the universe, the only ex-colony (while they not even an "ex" colony), etc.

They don't realise that in other countries, including Japan, in the whole curriculum of history, about 0,05% of the space is considered enough to say it all about little South-Korea. My Korean students always start screaming the first time I show them what the world knows of South-Korea : bloodiest civil war ever, American military base, dictatures, propaganda and censoring of information, industry, corruption and bankrupcy. (and well, to be nice, I don't list them prostitution and baby girls given for adoption, but to be fair, before high-school, that's all what we knew about South-Korea)

That's not only about South-Korea, but the pre-1945 problems are considered as archeology, the chapter is closed. 60 years of newer history has ran since.

There is no territorial dispute between Korea and Japan over Tsushima.

That you ignore something does not make it inexistant. South-Korea officially claimed Tsushima in 48, kind of invaded it in 50, and had to drop the claim in 51. The Americans told them they were asking a lot those days, a lot more than what they could administrate.

The situation is the same with Dokdo, a country that has not the command of its own army, that have accepted heavy occupation for decades (I mean the 50 last years) and is not even able to access to it's old capital (the beautiful Pyonyang) and 1/3 of the territory Japan gave them back in 1945... You'd think they already have enough territory problems.

But they are making a huge fuss over a neighbouring country just alluding that Koreans shouldn't own 2 rocks in the sea. (re-read the article, it's exactly that)

Apologies, the ODA etc. You believe that a couple of half hearted apologies and the ODA is enough to settle all historical grievances. In other words, you are basically setting a price on human lives. And that is your biggest mistake.

It's not a mistake. You are ignorant of the basic facts of history of South-Korea. I did not set any price. I quote historic facts. The ODA and their amount were negociated in 1965 by the South-Korean government. They were not only accepted, they were calculated by Seoul. They asked Japan to give all the money to SK's governement and to refrain from dealing directly with victims. The investigations and establishment of the list of victims was done by South-Korea, they asked Japan to let them do it, Japan did not even got the list, only the numbers and the amount to pay. SK authorities gave a very little part of the money to victims and their families.

Here, I add, as you seem ignorant, that after 45, most countries signed deals like that. Each State compensated its citizens that were victims (even victims of a foreign power) and the States arranged for compensation. So if one victim felt he/she desserved more, he/she would complain to his/her authorities. And (even there were exceptions) foreign countries refuse to accept individual claims as they sign the agreement with the other state, so they have to respect it. So, all the South-Koreans saying they are victims and Japan refused to acknowledge and pay are factually wrong about the second part. Japan acknowldeged and paid. And they often protested at the wrong window. Sorry for them if the mistake was sincere.

I think many South-Korean citizens didn't know the 1965 deal, or did not understand its content, because that was not written in their textbooks. That's what I call a problem. They are all taught about Hideyoshi, which is a folkloric tale with no consequence in present. But about important treaties of present time, they are ignorant. In all the textbooks we gathered (published 10 to 5 years ago), the compensation deal of 1965 was not explained. That was not false,just omitted.

And at that time (10 to 5 years ago), herd of South-Koreans patriotic activists and their many followers were screaming at Japan, saying Japan refused to pay for "comfort women", for irridiated people, etc. And when non-Korean historians would tell them of the 1965 deal, most South-Koreans would say that was lies we all made to "protect facist Japanese". Now the SK version of the 1965 document has been published. Everything I said is written clearly in Korean language.

So before going abroad to make a scandal, it's wise to learn about your own government and what your compatriots in power did recently.

If you say I gave innacurate information, show me any textbook of South-Korean public school that was relating those facts.

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Until SKorea act like adults and settle this issue permanently before the ICJ, all the historical and silly chest-beating arguments by korean nationalists are meaningless. The US considers these rocks UNDESIGNATED SOVEREIGNTY. End of issue.

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not a big deal, double booking issues present in many parts of the world. I am wondering why this issue has become so big this decade, this issue has probably been around for half century.

I am guessing that there must be some outside country who do not want the two countries to get along. I mean some country who wants to keep the military base in these countries...

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OssanAmerica - According to the 43rd Prwesident of the United States of America, the Islands belong to Korea, somethign that the 44th president hasn't changed the USA's stance on. Until Japan acts like adults, and settles some very badly outstnading issues, the Koreans will continue to rightfully uphold their claim.

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Blue Tiger- show me. Last I heard the status was returned to Undesignated Status.

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Ossan

Until SKorea act like adults and settle this issue permanently before the ICJ, all the historical and silly chest-beating arguments by korean nationalists are meaningless. The US considers these rocks UNDESIGNATED SOVEREIGNTY. End of issue.

You're still using the ICJ excuse? If Japan wants to go to court, why dont they? Whats stopping them from going to court? You mention the ICJ all the time, yet cannot seem to explain why Japan is unable to go to the ICJ.

Blue Tiger- show me. Last I heard the status was returned to Undesignated Status.

My goodness Ossan, did you not read what I wrote? BlueTiger is right. The President and the US government recognizes Korea as having sovereignty over Dokdo. Read what I wrote on 04:40 PM JST - 26th December. Then read the following link

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/07/113_28523.html

Dokdo's undesignated status lasted for a mere 6 days. 6 whole days. After that, the president of the United states confirmed that Dokdo was sovereign Korean territory. So there you have it. The President and the US government recognizes Korea, NOT JAPAN's ownership of Dokdo. The US only claims neutrality in order to not hurt Japan's feelings.

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OssanAmerica: These islands are indeed recognised by the US as Korean territory. Period!

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Dokto/Takeshima is now Korea. In my opinion it's like hotel double-booking issue. Somebody is already staying in the room. This issue was mysteriously surfaced after the cold war ended and Korea and Japan started to come closer to each other, I think we must realize the insignificance of this matter and not to complicate it any further. Way too much emotions on both ends.

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Cos

You wrote a whole bunch of nothing that only makes you look petty. Korean historians can criticize Japanese textbooks, because they know what is written inside. You on the other hand cannot even tell me why Korean textbooks are inaccurate. You don't even know the language. So what gives you a right to question their accuracy? Do people review movies they have yet to see? Much like how you are "reviewing" Korean textbooks you cannot even understand. And why do you get defensive when I call you biased. Admit it, you are biased. You even accuse Koreans of digging up the past, when its actually Japan who's doing the historical revisions years after the war has ended. Quit pointing fingers if you dont even know the details.

You also remark that Korean historians cannot criticize Japanese textbooks because most Koreans cannot distinguish an Okinawan from a Japanese person. What god awful logic is that? If you wish to debate me, do it properly. And please quit bringing up those arbitrary numbers. Where did you get the 95%, 5% and .05% numbers again? Did you use some complicated math formulas to read into the mind of Korean children, or are you making stuff up again? I asked for examples of Korean textbook inaccuracies and the best you can do is bring up made up numbers and your personal life stories. The fact is, this is the internet and anyone can make up a personal story to suit their agenda. Which you are probably doing right now.

And thats not the worst of it. You've contradicted yourself many times already. One obvious example is the Tsushima debate. You are infuriated at Koreans for mentioning Japanese war atrocities in the year 2009. Meanwhile you claim that Koreans are trying to steal Tsushima and use an event that occurred and ended in 1951 as an example. Hypocrisy much? There's just too much wrong in your post. A half assed apology by a low level government official and the ODA does not bring back the lives lost(you setting a price on human lives). The comfort women incident isnt even about money. Its about Japan actually admitting responsibility. Korean children are taught about the 1965 deal between the Japanese government and a Korean military dictator who never represented the people of South Korea. Of course you wouldn't know, you dont even know whats written in Korean textbooks. The list goes on and on.

As I mentioned earlier, if you wish to debate me. Do so properly.

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Ossan: "The US considers these rocks UNDESIGNATED SOVEREIGNTY. End of issue."

Nope. They were considered South Korean, until last year when the bush admin declared it undesignated. The South Korean gov't made a huge uproar while the Japanese cheered, and then the former cheered when the US changed the status BACK to South Korean, while the latter sneered. I think this was even on JT a year or so back.

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The 6 day change from designated to undesignated back to designated was politically motivated.

It occurred during the US-Korea beef deal, Free trade agreement and Bush's upcoming visit to South Korea. It was a tool used by the US government to kill 3 birds with stone. Its very very likely that the South Korean government was also behind it, since both governments shared the same goal. Needless to say the US-beef deal ended peacefully shortly afterwards, FTA negotiations progressed, Bush's popularity in Korea soared, and the Presidents visit to Korea was a success.

The only people who lost out on the event were the Japanese Takeshima supporters who still to this day believe the US is "neutral".

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it is the matter of two countries, I understand if two countries decide to bring the issue to UN or something, but US or UK has absolutely nothing to do with it.

By the way, being a Japanese, I take Korea's perspective on this one. I'd say some people calling it as "invasion attempt" would be a bit too ridiculous. I think it would be better that two countries calm down and have the scholars on the both sides analyze the evidences and conclude it once and for all. Either way, the U.S. should stay out of this: it's our problem, not theirs.

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Until SKorea act like adults and settle this issue permanently before the ICJ, all the historical and silly chest-beating arguments by korean nationalists are meaningless

I prefer that it continues simply because of entertainment value. I get a kick out of their annual finger chopping/feather mutilating/flag burning protests.

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Much ado about nothing, both countries rely on American Troops for protection and therefore unless America says different things will remain status-quo. The Dokdo thing is why over done by both sides but in particular one side seems to out do the other though, taking out advertisements out in the NYT and printing that Dokdo is Korean on dry cleaning bags. Japan should just follow China's lead, slant drilling and catch fish on the boarder of the EEZ during their migration.

History textbook whitewashing in China's case is easy enough to find;

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/may/08/world/fg-history8 http://theseoultimes.com/ST/?url=/ST/db/read.php?idx=3966 http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/09/116_52682.html

A little harder for Korea;

http://www.workers.org/2009/world/korea_massacres_1210/

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Those are their shame, the truth they want to deny.

We have things like those that we do not want to mention, and so as America and U.K. I'd say off topic and let's say be nice to them, none of our hands are clean.

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VG877, I find your posts unhelpful and Japanese Bashing. Just what do the Koreans know about Okinawa? It is very similar to Korea in that it was annexed to Japan against their will in 1872. I have stated the ROK should get the rocks (Takeshima). A lot of good it will do them. However I do not see this improving Japan Korea relations. The comfort women will be a distraction even though it was settled with the lawful government of Korea in 1965. Yes Japanese people can read Korean. Schoolbooks is such a lame excuse. The hatred of all things Japanese will prevent good relations. Japan has made many apologies and asked to be forgiven but Korea refuses to forgive. Takeshima is an example of the tension that still exists to this day.

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Japan has made many apologies and asked to be forgiven but Korea refuses to forgive.

Well, I can't recall our country apologizing in a proper way. Will you enlighten me on this?

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

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How can you say such a thing! It has been done over and over again but they have not been accepted by the Korean people. www.iias.nl/nl/44/IIAS_NL44_36.pdf. It is time for Japan to move forward remembering the past so not to repeat it but it has been 64 years. Sign away all rights to Dokdo Islands and be done with it. I am not sure what a "proper way" could be but it has been done.

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Good_Jorb, thank you for the link.

"35-year forced occupation" I think this is the keyword to understand their anger. Dokto/Takeshima issue could have been just another double-booking issue if we have specifically and sincerely apologized for it.

Yuri-san, I hope you understand my point.

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I mean Koreans has gone too emotional over this issue because of the past and we are partly responsible for it.

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Yuri Otani:

The comfort women will be a distraction even though it was settled with the lawful government of Korea in 1965.

Quite ironic, huh? That's the issue the JP government, right-wing conservatives, and notorious NHK have attempted to erase from Japanese national history. You know why? Because it tarnishes the national history. That’s their main argument. If you are so confident on this, perhaps you go ask any scholars or activists studying on the issue such as VAWW-NET Japan. I would not have any courage to do that, if I were you.

Japan has made many apologies and asked to be forgiven but Korea refuses to forgive.

Sure, Japan has made so many apologies, but also screwed up so many times because they are totally incapable of mediating the contradictions between their political message and public discourse. That’s the problem with Japanese government today. You don’t need to be Koreans to get emotional. Anyone could be upset with the national and public blunders and indifference to their root cause.

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Who can put the hand on fire about what Korea and China say or write are the truth?

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"Japan has made many apologies and asked to be forgiven but Korea refuses to forgive."

So what Japan can do? Just moving ahead forgotten Korea.

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Does someone know Korea was occupied by China, and China gave Korea to Japan (payment of war) when Japan won the China-Japan war?

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When those Japanese politicians slipped their tongues and said what they should never have said, I don't think we reacted/protested enough...

We should realize that no matter what you say or do, Korea stays as our neighbor. Same can be said for Koreans, we are always your neighbor. Gotta do something to get along. It is not easy nor normal that we ignore someone sitting right next to us. Friendship, peace, and a mutual respect is more valuable than that stupid little piece of rock.

Righties on the both sides should understand that a blind nationalism does a lot of harm but nothing good comes out of it.

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When those Japanese politicians slipped their tongues and said what they should never have said

Their gaffe is a pretty good example of "sight gag" that gives us an unspoken nod to "cynicism" and "carnivalesque" of gloomy Japanese public culture.

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Good grief, are they still arguing about those rocks?

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lol.

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No one answered my questions above... lol

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ahem... and your point is?

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I´m not Japanese, Korean or Chinese. I can see the situation with no emotion. My point of view is:

I do not put my hand on fire about what Korean and Chinese say or write are the truth. Are they owner of the truth? Japan has made many apologies and asked to be forgiven but Korea and China refuses to forgive. Japan should stop doing it, they don´t have the ability to forgive also means they will be chained to their past, and go to their graves without being able to let go. It´s their right. But hatreds should not be carried on forever, bitterness sours their own life more than anyone else's. China and Korea have jealousy and envy of Japan. They don´t accept the idea that a torn down country could become the second largest economy, have the highest longevity and one of the best human development rate.
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BigObserver,

Japan has not specifically apologized for the forced occupation itself, and in addition to that even if we are fully aware of them being haunted by anger and un-forgiveness, they are still our neighbors and we must build a good relationship. There still are good people on the both sides trying to build friendships.

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1) Bush said the islets belong to Korea!!! Who is so crazy to believe what Bush says???

2) Japan did not invade Korea, China GAVE Korea to Japan in payment of war. Why did not China give other territory to Japan in payment of war? Because China had already sucked everything from Korea during the period that China had occupied Korea, and China considered Korea a refuse.

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"Cos at 06:56 PM JST - 27th December That's just as I said, South-Korean youths are taught history in a disproportionate way. They end up believing their country is the center of earth, the biggest victim of the universe, the only ex-colony (while they not even an "ex" colony), etc. They don't realise that in other countries, including Japan, in the whole curriculum of history, about 0,05% of the space is considered enough to say it all about little South-Korea. My Korean students always start screaming the first time I show them what the world knows of South-Korea : bloodiest civil war ever, American military base, dictatures, propaganda and censoring of information, industry, corruption and bankrupcy. (and well, to be nice, I don't list them prostitution and baby girls given for adoption, but to be fair, before high-school, that's all what we knew about South-Korea) That's not only about South-Korea, but the pre-1945 problems are considered as archeology, the chapter is closed. 60 years of newer history has ran since. There is no territorial dispute between Korea and Japan over Tsushima. That you ignore something does not make it inexistant. South-Korea officially claimed Tsushima in 48, kind of invaded it in 50, and had to drop the claim in 51. The Americans told them they were asking a lot those days, a lot more than what they could administrate. The situation is the same with Dokdo, a country that has not the command of its own army, that have accepted heavy occupation for decades (I mean the 50 last years) and is not even able to access to it's old capital (the beautiful Pyonyang) and 1/3 of the territory Japan gave them back in 1945... You'd think they already have enough territory problems. But they are making a huge fuss over a neighbouring country just alluding that Koreans shouldn't own 2 rocks in the sea. (re-read the article, it's exactly that) Apologies, the ODA etc. You believe that a couple of half hearted apologies and the ODA is enough to settle all historical grievances. In other words, you are basically setting a price on human lives. And that is your biggest mistake. It's not a mistake. You are ignorant of the basic facts of history of South-Korea. I did not set any price. I quote historic facts. The ODA and their amount were negociated in 1965 by the South-Korean government. They were not only accepted, they were calculated by Seoul. They asked Japan to give all the money to SK's governement and to refrain from dealing directly with victims. The investigations and establishment of the list of victims was done by South-Korea, they asked Japan to let them do it, Japan did not even got the list, only the numbers and the amount to pay. SK authorities gave a very little part of the money to victims and their families. Here, I add, as you seem ignorant, that after 45, most countries signed deals like that. Each State compensated its citizens that were victims (even victims of a foreign power) and the States arranged for compensation. So if one victim felt he/she desserved more, he/she would complain to his/her authorities. And (even there were exceptions) foreign countries refuse to accept individual claims as they sign the agreement with the other state, so they have to respect it. So, all the South-Koreans saying they are victims and Japan refused to acknowledge and pay are factually wrong about the second part. Japan acknowldeged and paid. And they often protested at the wrong window. Sorry for them if the mistake was sincere. I think many South-Korean citizens didn't know the 1965 deal, or did not understand its content, because that was not written in their textbooks. That's what I call a problem. They are all taught about Hideyoshi, which is a folkloric tale with no consequence in present. But about important treaties of present time, they are ignorant. In all the textbooks we gathered (published 10 to 5 years ago), the compensation deal of 1965 was not explained. That was not false,just omitted. And at that time (10 to 5 years ago), herd of South-Koreans patriotic activists and their many followers were screaming at Japan, saying Japan refused to pay for "comfort women", for irridiated people, etc. And when non-Korean historians would tell them of the 1965 deal, most South-Koreans would say that was lies we all made to "protect facist Japanese". Now the SK version of the 1965 document has been published. Everything I said is written clearly in Korean language. So before going abroad to make a scandal, it's wise to learn about your own government and what your compatriots in power did recently. If you say I gave innacurate information, show me any textbook of South-Korean public school that was relating those facts."

@Cos: I´m European and most of Europe (except Britain, The Great Vassal) agree entirely with you. Sir, great post, well done. We´d like to give an advice: It´s impossible dialogue to Korean and Chinese zealots, or their vassals and accomplices. They don´t have the ability to forgive also means they will be chained to their past, and go to their graves without being able to let go. It´s their right. But hatreds should not be carried on forever, bitterness sours their own life more than anyone else's. They have jealousy and envy of Japan. They don´t accept the idea that a torn down country (that was target of two cowards A-bomb) could become the second largest economy, have the highest longevity and one of the best human development rate. Japan, again, welcome among best countries of Europe.

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Nigelboy

I prefer that it continues simply because of entertainment value. I get a kick out of their annual finger chopping/feather mutilating/flag burning protests.

The fact is, no matter how much you cry. Dokdo will always be considered sovereign Korean territory. So please quit the bitterness and just accept it.

GoodJorb >>Much ado about nothing, both countries rely on American Troops for protection and therefore unless America says different things will remain status-quo. The Dokdo thing is why over done by both sides but in particular one side seems to out do the other though, taking out advertisements out in the NYT and printing that Dokdo is Korean on dry cleaning bags. Japan should just follow China's lead, slant drilling and catch fish on the boarder of the EEZ during their migration. >History textbook whitewashing in China's case is easy enough to find; >http://articles.latimes.com/2005/may/08/world/fg-history8 >http://theseoultimes.com/ST/?url=/ST/db/read.php?idx=3966 >http://koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/09/116_52682.html >A little harder for Korea; >http://www.workers.org/2009/world/koreamassacres1210/ Japan doesnt have the guts to attempt such a task. Otherwise, they would have done so a long time ago. There is no gain in attempting such a task. The natural resources on and around the island are still within boundary and it still doesnt change the fact that the islands are controlled by Korea. Japan would only be wasting its money, time and face in doing so. P.S. your Korea link doesnt work.

YuriOtani

VG877, I find your posts unhelpful and Japanese Bashing. Just what do the Koreans know about Okinawa? It is very similar to Korea in that it was annexed to Japan against their will in 1872. I have stated the ROK should get the rocks (Takeshima). A lot of good it will do them. However I do not see this improving Japan Korea relations. The comfort women will be a distraction even though it was settled with the lawful government of Korea in 1965. Yes Japanese people can read Korean. Schoolbooks is such a lame excuse. The hatred of all things Japanese will prevent good relations. Japan has made many apologies and asked to be forgiven but Korea refuses to forgive. Takeshima is an example of the tension that still exists to this day.

Just because I disagree with Japan's stance does not make me a racist. I do agree that relations can improve if and only if both sides cooperate. However, most of the blame still lies withJapan. It is Japan who was the agressor and thus it is Japan who must ultimately appease the victim. Not the other way around. If Japan wants to improve relations, it must act sincererly.

Instead the only thing Koreans get is along the lines of "we already apologized" or "that never happened" type of excuses. Obviously, no one is really surprised why Korea-Japan relations are so bad.

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BigObserver

Does someone know Korea was occupied by China, and China gave Korea to Japan (payment of war) when Japan won the China-Japan war?

Where do you get your information? China never owned Korea. China never gave Korea to Japan after the Sino-Chinese war. The Korean empire formed right after the Sino-Japanese war. Japan colonized Korea in 1910 which happened years after the Sino-Japanese war.

So what Japan can do? Just moving ahead forgotten Korea.

Its the other way around. Korea is forgetting about Japan. Korea does not view Japan as a power nor as an important market. Japan makes billions of dollars from Korean companies by selling mechanical components and parts. However, more and more Korean companies are now switching to parts from Germany and buying less from Japan.

With Korean electronics rivals stripping Japanese companies, and more Korean companies buying German. You will notice that Korea is in fact the one who is "forgetting" about Japan.

1) Bush said the islets belong to Korea!!! Who is so crazy to believe what Bush says??? 2) Japan did not invade Korea, China GAVE Korea to Japan in payment of war. Why did not China give other territory to Japan in payment of war? Because China had already sucked everything from Korea during the period that China had occupied Korea, and China considered Korea a refuse.

1) Its not just Bush. Its the US governments stance.

2) Japan did invade Korea. Ask any historian.

3) China did not give Korea to Japan. China did not even own Korea. Show me a paper which states that China owned Korea.

4) The Sino-Japanese war was fought in order to break Korea's pro-China stance and alliance.

@Cos: I´m European and most of Europe (except Britain, The Great Vassal) agree entirely with you. Sir, great post, well done. We´d like to give an advice: It´s impossible dialogue to Korean and Chinese zealots, or their vassals and accomplices. They don´t have the ability to forgive also means they will be chained to their past, and go to their graves without being able to let go. It´s their right. But hatreds should not be carried on forever, bitterness sours their own life more than anyone else's. They have jealousy and envy of Japan. They don´t accept the idea that a torn down country (that was target of two cowards A-bomb) could become the second largest economy, have the highest longevity and one of the best human development rate. Japan, again, welcome among best countries of Europe.

Lol at you claiming that most of Europe agrees with Japan on this dispute. Sorry kido but most Europeons in general do not know of this dispute. The EU's official stance is to respect Korea's sovereignty over the island, not Japan's.

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VG877, where are you from? Calm down! You make me smile too much! ROTFLOL! It´s impossible dialogue to Korean and Chinese zealots, or their vassals and accomplices. They don´t have the ability to forgive also means they will be chained to their past, and go to their graves without being able to let go. It´s their right. But hatreds should not be carried on forever, bitterness sours their own life more than anyone else's. They have jealousy and envy of Japan. They don´t accept the idea that a torn down country (that was target of two cowards A-bomb) could become the second largest economy, have the highest longevity and one of the best human development rate. Japan, again, welcome among best countries of Europe.

Moderator: All readers, back on topic please.

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How I wish an eathquake hits and the sea swallows these stupid rocks. These rocks are nothing but obstacles for us - on the both sides - who seek friendship & mutual respects between these two nations.

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The fact is, no matter how much you cry. Dokdo will always be considered sovereign Korean territory. So please quit the bitterness and just accept it.

Not crying at all since I do not expect Korea to act like adults and settle this case via ICJ because of their WEAK stance on the matter. Like I stated in my previous post, I will continually enjoy their annual finger chopping/feather mutilating/flag burning protests.

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Not crying at all since I do not expect Korea to act like adults and settle this case via ICJ because of their WEAK stance on the matter.

Neither Japan nor Korea is acting like adults, considering the insignificance of those tiny rocks. These precious two countries have been making it too big of a deal.

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Big Observer

VG877, where are you from? Calm down! You make me smile too much! ROTFLOL!

You make me smile due to your gross inaccurate view of history, which you dont even deny judging by your decision not to even defend yourself. If you plan on lying about history, at least back it up with historical evidence or try to defend yourself. Quit bringing up the A-bombs which has nothing to do with this debate.

It´s impossible dialogue to Korean and Chinese zealots, or their vassals and accomplices.

Does that make you a Japanese zealot? It works both ways.

They don´t have the ability to forgive also means they will be chained to their past, and go to their graves without being able to let go. It´s their right. But hatreds should not be carried on forever, bitterness sours their own life more than anyone else's.

Uhhhh.... I think its clearly Japan who is the wrongdoer here. Not Korea or China.

They have jealousy and envy of Japan.

Jealous of what? Korea has better technology, controls Dokdo and doesn't have a shameful history of imperialism and getting nuked for it. China is going to become a superpower while Japan is dying. What exactly is there to be jealous of? You give yourself way too much credit.

They don´t accept the idea that a torn down country (that was target of two cowards A-bomb) could become the second largest economy,

Please go read up on why Japan was nuked in the first place. You should also look at Japan's GDP per capita. Nowhere near the best in the world.

one of the best human development rate.

LOL. So not true.

Nigel Boy >>Not crying at all since I do not expect Korea to act like adults and settle this case via ICJ because of their WEAK stance on the matter. Like I stated in my previous post, I will continually enjoy their annual finger chopping/feather mutilating/flag burning protests. Weak stance? I can tell you have no idea how the ICJ works. If Japan wants to go to the ICJ, then go right on ahead. No one is stopping them. Why does Japan need Korea's **permission** in order to go to court? If Japan is so confident in the ICJ then they should shut up and go to court rather than crying to the Korean government for permission. You do realize why Japan needs Korea's permission do you? And why the rest of the world follows Korea's rather than Japan's EEZ when dealing with Dokdo and its surrounding water? Or why the Japanese government refuses to send ships to the island it claims it owns. I find it humorous that Japanese people still use the ICJ excuse.
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This is a unfortunate issue but both do have convincing evidences that their arguments are based on. They have different perspectives of course they come up with different conclusions. Let's keep arguments as just arguments, chill out both sides, those are just small rocks.

The arguments should not be any more than something of an academic nature. It's worth no more than a game for scholars to play. Nobody lives there and they are nobody's home. Why you on the both sides so emotionally attached to them?

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In a contentious case, the basic principle is that both parties must agree to submit to the jurisdiction of the ICJ.

http://www.icj-cij.org/jurisdiction/index.php?p1=5&p2=1&p3=2 http://www.icj-cij.org/jurisdiction/index.php?p1=5&p2=1&p3=3

Since Korea has not submitted her declaration under "Declarations Recognizing the Jurisdiction of the Court as Compulsory", Japan cannot exercize since the statute states

"Each State which has recognized the compulsory jurisdiction of the Court has in principle the right to bring any one or more other State which has accepted the same obligation before the Court by filing an application instituting proceedings with the Court, and, conversely, it has undertaken to appear before the Court should proceedings be instituted against it by one or more such other States. "

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Wrong answer. Its because Korea owns the islands. All playing cards are on Korea's deck. If Korea doesn't want to go to court, then too bad for Japan. The island cannot become officially disputed if Korea doesn't acknowledge Japan's claims. Japan can cry about the island all they want. But its ultimately Korea who decides what the status of the islands are. Japan should just learn to deal with it. The ICJ is a horrible excuse that doesn't work. If Japan wants to go to court, it needs Korea's permission. And quite frankly, Korea simply does not care about Japan and its claims. So please quit bringing up the ICJ excuse. It doesnt work.

This is no different from me claiming Louisiana belongs to the republic of Vg86 and demanding the American government go to court over it. The American government would simply ignore me because all cards are on their deck. They control Louisiana, I dont. Much like how all cards are on Korea's deck with regards to Dokdo. There simply is nothing to gain in going to court. Its a huge waste of time.

However, if the American government for some odd reason did agree to Louisiana being disputed and decided to go to court. Then America is giving up ALL rights to Louisiana. America is giving up sovereignty and administrative rights to Louisiana by acknowledging the territory is neutral/disputed territory with no sovereignty. In doing so, Louisiana no longer becomes American. Once you give up territory, you cannot take it back so easily. At this point the Republic of Vg86 can refuse to go to court and Louisiana will remain a disputed territory for both nations to farm/fish/hunt in. Which is pretty much what greedy Japan wants with Dokdo. Mineral, fish and territory.

In any case, Dokdo is Korea. It will remain Korean. And its status as a soverign/disputed territory is ultimately up to Korea. Japan has no power or say in this matter. Too bad Nigelboy. Now go cry somewhere else.

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No the most japanese think that you have no chance to win that is why you keep run away from it. In my perspective it is your tendency to relate everything Japan says with the forced occupation.

Both sides do have their evidences and logics to back up that the rocks (or islands) belong to them. It is in sane that both don't consider the possibilities that the idea that the opposite side is also a group of intelligent people. Ok, I am sick of this dispute, and in my perspective the both sides, Japanese and Korean, are stupid enough to even know that they, I mean the both sides, are blind.

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Wrong answer

Huh? Your question was

" Why does Japan need Korea's permission in order to go to court? If Japan is so confident in the ICJ then they should shut up and go to court rather than crying to the Korean government for permission."

Which I answered in the above.

And your Louisiana example is a joke because nobody is claiming Louisiana.

And no. Not crying at all. Like I stated in the previous post, I'd like the Koreans annual finger chopping/feather beating harakiri blood bath demonstrations. It shows their character. It shows that "Korea does care" what Japan thinks.

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Which I answered in the above.

You really dont understand do you?

And your Louisiana example is a joke because nobody is claiming Louisiana.

The jokes on you for taking the Louisiana example at face value. It was only an example. The example applies to this situation. If I claimed Louisiana, then the US government could simply ignore me because they control the territory. All cards are on their deck. I have nothing to offer them. Much like how Korea controls Dokdo and can simply ignore Japan. The ICJ excuse has been refuted already.

Japan can whine all it wants but in the end the territory will remain Korean while all Japan can do is whine to the ICJ. Speaking of the ICJ. If Japan is so obsessed with the ICJ, then why dont they go to court with China over the Diaoyutai Islands? Is Japan being a hypocrite here?

And no. Not crying at all. Like I stated in the previous post, I'd like the Koreans annual finger chopping/feather beating harakiri blood bath demonstrations. It shows their character. It shows that "Korea does care" what Japan thinks.

Well then, sorry to disappoint you but there hasnt been any finger cuttings as of yet. Disappointed? Well you should be, cause the Korean side still has a big fat flag planted directly on the island right in Japans face.

Too bad for Japan and yourself huh? Cant get the island. Cant get the natural resources. And now cant even get a good finger cutting. I guess Japan loses out yet again.

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You really dont understand do you?

It's apparent that you don't.

The jokes on you for taking the Louisiana example at face value. It was only an example. The example applies to this situation. If I claimed Louisiana, then the US government could simply ignore me because they control the territory. All cards are on their deck. I have nothing to offer them. Much like how Korea controls Dokdo and can simply ignore Japan. The ICJ excuse has been refuted already.

In other words, Japan could militarily take over Takeshima like Syngam Rhee did for Korea and everything will be settled correct? Gotcha!

Speaking of the ICJ. If Japan is so obsessed with the ICJ, then why dont they go to court with China over the Diaoyutai Islands? Is Japan being a hypocrite here?

Read my post at at 12:23 AM JST - 9th January

If China wants to take this up to ICJ, all they have to do is submit their declaration. Japan has already. China hasn't. Korea hasn't. Reading is fundamental.

Well then, sorry to disappoint you but there hasnt been any finger cuttings as of yet. Disappointed

We still got a month to go before the Takeshima Day!!

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The South Korean claim to Tokdo is based on earlier, more numerous precedents than that of Japan. Korean experts claim that numerous eighth-century historical records prove that the area was first incorporated into the Korean Shilla Dynasty in 512 A.D. In addition, Korea asserts that numerous maps,including one by Japanese cartographer Dabuchi Tomohiko, verify its title to Tokdo.

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