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© 2012 AFPS Korea, Japan to sign first military pact
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paulinusa
The Japan/South Korea relationship progresses painfully slow, but at least it does move in the right direction.
Ben Jack
Really? Somehow I thought Japan's fears of North Korea came from the fact that North Korea shoots rockets/missiles at them and abducts their citizens. Silly me.
sfjp330
Probably U.S. goverment requested Japan and South Korea to be on the same page to counter China and North Korea. The network of allies in the Asia-Pacific is the advantage for the U.S. in western Pacific region. South Korea, Japan and U.S. cooperation will improve communications between these countries during the emergencies and non-emergercy situations. The more US military forces and their allies are able to disperse across the region at temporary or rotational basing arrangements, the more difficult it will be for China to gain an advantage with military power.
mikemcfly87
Great news. Although I agree with you paulinusa, I can understand the slowness of this progress. I think that within the next 20 years that tension between the two will be very small.
mikemcfly87
That's because per Japanese constitution, they aren't allowed a "military". They have a Self Defence Force. They are not allowed to make any moves/actions/etc that could/would be perceived as acting first. They in essence have a "Reaction Force" So they train as they are allowed, passively. Training agressively is not codusive to their actual wartime missions. Where-as Korean forces are opposite; they train both agressively and passively. They sit in a "dormant" war with a constant enemy. They train polar opposite of the Japanese. Which in turn can/will be condusive to in the future to both parties. And no this is not a "Japan bashing" attempt, simply filling in some information.
Ben Jack
Clemens,
Yes, I thought so.
You are the one talking about being 'filled with fear' 'pissing their pants with fear'. Having a fear about something does not mean you are paranoi or some silly fool. It means there are concerns (fears). You have admitted your friends do have concerns (fears) do a certain degree. So, are they paranoid to a certain degree? No, I thought not. Perhaps you overspoke your point?
There is nothing wrong with being concerned with Korea or having a healthy fear of it. No one is suggesting the paranoia you are suggesting, except yourself. Perhaps your personal feelings about troops in Okinawa are gettting in the way of your looking at this particular subject objectively?
Nothing to be hurt about. As I suspected they are concerned (have some fears), at least to some degree, about North Korea. You seemed to be suggesting such fears/concerns do not and should not exist amongst Japanese because it is unreasonable (paranoid seems to be your wording) to do so. My point, and you helped me make it, is that because of North Korea's actions, there is reason for people in Japan to be concerned/have fears about North Korea and that Japnese people are in fact concerned reasonably about it.
Eduardo Gonzalez
"...and Dear Father nust NOT be aware of it, in fact, they wanna invade S Korea and Japan by Dec. 21st this year. The reason why, Jong Un says: "SHUT UP!"
The most ridiculous thing Japan is planning to do, is to commence their nuclear defence programme, where no missile is safe from the big one nationwide
alliswellinjapan
If this happens it is a big step forward in terms of Japan-South Korean relationship in my view. I took it as a signification that South Korea has also changed somewhat. I realize this move is triggered only because of the greater fears (ie N Korea) which South Korea needs to worry about and by no means an indication that everything between the two countries is cleared including the items listed in the article, but a significant step forward nonetheless.
sandiegoluv
You know, I think you are both right. There are many in Japan who are not one bit concerned/worried with/about North Korea. Hell, a lot of them are concerned with nothing other than there own lives and couldn't give a squat what is happening outside of their world. Results of living in a media box.
And then there are others who are downright frightened of the North. Funny part is that the media comes out everyone once in a while and stirs those fears up, and then everyone is pissing in their pants.
Yes, there are many people in Japan who are ether concerned/worried about North Korea. They there are those who are concerned for Korea. And then there are the space cadets who are more concerned about which Karoke box they are going to sing at this weekend. No offense to the Japanese here. Space cadets are everywhere. in every country.
@Clemens - Thanks for the link. I checked it out. Wow. Destitute. I doubt this group could do very much. But that is not the concern that bothers people. It has more to do with, if they ever get their missiles functioning and fit them with nuclear warheads. And crazy people in charge of those weapons, that should scare anyone.
＠Ben Jack - I do agree with you on people being frightened but a lot of this is due to the media trying to incite everyone into a hysteric fit. Yes, the North is something to worried/concerned about, but this just plays into the media and politicians who just want to get the elected through, demagougery.
@Probie. Thanks for the vid. WOW. That was sad. I really think Japan needs the alliance with the South. Because if it ever comes down to war, you sure would not want these guys fighting for you. I was in the US Army and it was hardcore, but we never, ever acted like that. I think they were just playing for the cameras though. They probably didn't know how hard REAL military's really are. Sorry, to point out again. But this is due to living in a box again. That vid was sad.
@Clemens and Ben - You are both right. But I hope you guys will not dig your nails into each other to much more. I hate when people fight. So, let's play nice y'all.
ka_chan
The fact that the Korea's can't become on country as Germany has done is ridiculous. Granted the North Korea problem would be solved but Korea would be more powerful by ten fold. During Japan's "annexation, Japan concentrated on the north since that is where most of the resources of the country exists. This will not be good for Japan since a strong Korea is not in Japanese interests. What country would want to deal with 3 strong and nuclear countries on their border? Two and a half is more than enough. China, Russia and US would loose much of their influence on a unified Korea. If united, Japan will have to deal with more territorial disputes. So an agreement to continue the status quo is good for all. BTW, the friction between Japan and Korea goes back to the beginning of Japan so I don't think a mere 20 years will mean much.
BessonovYan
That is specific strange pact. I can not understand that problems can be solve. NK - so no problem for Japan and SK. May be China? May be, not that pact can not like some really important and solve any problem.
May be politics of Japan and SK can understand that China is problem. But they can not understand the main point.
Also F-35 can not help to Japan. That is losing of money. USA not want have problem with China.
Ben Jack
I clearly explained what I meant by fear enough times that you cannot claim I meant anything but what I said. Please look at a dictionary. 心配certainly does mean fear/anxious/concerned/uneasy. In my third response to you in this discussion, I clearly said what I meant when you claimed incorrectly that I was saying Japanese people are 'filled with fear'. You continued to ignore this and seem to continue to want to.
I'm sorry you are having so much trouble with the language even after my explaining what I meant so carefully. You wear how long you live in Japan like some sort of badge and yet you need me to give you lessons on Japanese? Perhaps you should keep how long you live here to yourself until you brush up on your Japanese a bit more:
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/dsearch?enc=UTF-8&p=afraid&dtype=1&dname=1na&stype=0&pagenum=1&index=001169000
You also claimed that Japanese react with a 'pfft' to North Korea. Interestingly 'pffft' does not translate to fear/anxious/concerned/uneasy, does it? No, it means they are not worried at all. You claimed that Japanese are not concerned at all. I said they were. You were and still are wrong. I was and still am correct. I'm glad you are able to be happy acknowledging you still have a ways to go before you can claim expertise on things Japanese.
You are the one who is exaggerating and sensationalizing here. You have brought into the conversation completely unrelated subject matter and attempted to pass it off as relevant: Bush/LDP/NTV/Right Wingers.
Bottom line: You are wrong. I am correct.
Ben Jack
Remember, this all started with me innocently mentioning that fear exists in Japanese about North Korea and you jumping all over me claiming I was paranoid and fearmongering. Then you are absolutely unable to back up what you wrote you now back peddle. It does not wash.
Clemens Simon
For once and for all... (and you can quote me on it)
Not all Japanese (as you stated in your first post here) fear North Korea.
There are those that do and those that don't.
There are also those that are concerned about North Korea and there are even those who aren't even that.
Ben Jack
Cool. Tell me, what agencies do you believe? What are your sources of information that you believe?
Clemens Simon
No need to apologize, sandiegoluv. We can't agree on all of the issues. No biggie!
sandiegoluv
@ Clemens -
Mockery? Not scared? What about when they actually get all the flies out of the ointment and become accurate? Furthermore, would you feel comfortable with your neighbor shooting missiles over your head? If so, I have absolutely no idea why. Any country is going to feel and should feel as nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs on a ship in a typhoon when their neighbor does such a thing.
Oh, come on already. Another "Let'a Hate On America" comment that is just backed up by emotion. Come on. You are better than that.
I agree with you here. Silly YOU! You are ignoring a few important factors here.
One, it happened and the media uses it just to sell time on TV and politicians use it to win elections. So, I wouldn't blame the average Japanese person for that. They do shiver with fear and that is not something that should be mocked but should be accepted as a real condition. Media wise they do live in a box. Even though it is a bad excuse, it still is true.
Two, even though I don't agree at all with military forces being in other countries and feel that countries like Japan should learn what freedom is buy doing it themselves and that all US military should be sent back to the US, because one, it is not our responsibility and two, countries need to do it themselves if they think it is so easy. The fact of the matter is not an occupation. The military is there for many other reasons besides North Korea. Please don't over simplify things like that.
Ben Jack
I'm quite sure the families of those killed in South Korean in the North's attack do not share your amusement. abducts their citizens
I am also quite sure the families of the Japanese people who were abducted and have still not return do not share your amusement. Seriously, do you actually talk to any people? To say Japanese people are not concerned about the dangers posed by North Korea is to be quite uninformed or naive or both. You can give your opinion as to whether they should be afraid or not. However, it is rather silly of you to deny that the fear exists.
The US forces are here at the pleasure of the Japanese government. If the Japanese government asked them to leave, they would. It is not an occupation.
Ben Jack
The deaths of South Koreans from one of North Koreans recent outbursts in the form of missiles shot into South Korean territory are not propaganda, silly or otherwise. The abductions of Japanese citizens, many of whom will never come back, some of whom are still possibly being held captive in North Korea are not propaganda, silly or otherwise. The missles that North Korea did shoot toward Japan were not propaganda, silly or otherwise. The nuclear weapons this unstable North Korean possesses are not propaganda, silly or otherwise. They are all real and people's lives have been lost as a result. Korea's ability to export its tech to others is not propaganda either, silly or otherwise. You are free to stick your head in the sand and say everything is fine, dandy and safe with regard to North Korea. However, the people whose lives have been irreversibly damaged by North Korea would beg to differ.
Let me get this straight, you ask your Japanese aquaintances if they are concerned with North Korea and they say, 'no'? If you say so. You certainly have some unusual aquaintances.
Ben Jack
Thanks, I did. To be anxious, concerned and fearful can certainly take on the same meaning, Especially when your friends say 心配だね.
What? Just you just ask all your friends again and they changed their minds from the time you previously posted? See, I think you were correct the first time. They are concerned about North Korea and what they might do. Why not ask again?
I am not sure what you think that is supposed to prove. A desperate country with nuclear weapons hardly assures me everything is peachy and they will not do anything. Again, I point to the recent shelling/bombing of South Korea and the resulting deaths. Hardly a joking matter, at least for me. I guess you find it humorous.
I am not suggesting paranoia not bombing North Korea. Just a healthy concern/fear and preparation in case those fears prove true again.
Again, I do not see anyone running around Japan paranoid and pissing themselves. I see natural concern/fear about a neighbor that has the real potential to be dangerous.
Ben Jack
I see very little of that here in Japan. I just see people being worried/concerned and preparing in case something were to happen. It happened in South Korea not too long ago, when North Korea attacked and deaths resulted.
I do agree with your main points, however.
Ben Jack
Clemens,
Let me say one more thing. One thing I do like about your attitude is that you do not want war to be the first choice out of the gate. I agree 100% about that. Overreacting in today's world can and has caused a lot of misery all over the world. I guess I just think making jokes and acting as though being concerned about North Korea makes someone a cry baby in a diaper is not really the best reaction or description of what most Japanese people think or feel about Korea. I have not seen anyone running around Japan in a blind panic or urinating in the pants uncontrollably from fear. I just see and hear people discussing what is a worrying situation and hoping North Korea does not do anything like what they did to South Korea a short while back. Okay?
Ben Jack
Opinionhated,
You could have just written, "The self-defense force is a military." and avoided the roses analogy. You not only would have saved yourself typing some words, but you also would have avoided using rather crude language. Keep it in mind for the next time.
Anyway, calling their forces a self defense force has a lot of good and solid reasons behind it. 1) Asian countries prefer the sound of Japan having a self defense force rather than an army. 2) Many Japanese share this opinion. 3) It affirms that fact that Japan has no desire to use its force in an offensive capacity. 3) This seems to put Japan's neighbors at ease.
I think that there can be a lot to what something is called and how people react to it. In Japan's case, it has made relationships with its Asian neighbors much easier than they would be if the name were changed to the Japanese army. I certainly feel there is a different nuance to it.
sandiegoluv
@Ben - Very good points, but .....
I have to disagree with that. I think we see the media and politicians differently. Maybe it is just my own cynical view of both, but I see them as really willing and able to use that to further they own agendas.
Yes, the Japanese should be prepared for whatever happens. Although I don't think that what happened to South Korea will be the same thing that happens with Japan, due to the fact that the South and the North are still at war, technically.
I just hope cooler heads prevail. But I do think this agreement between Japan and South Korea is purely symbolic to say the least. But Japan should try to get as much knowledge from South Korea and copy it to make better soldiers. I hope everyone saw that video that PROBIE posted. Wow. What a bunch of wusses. The old Japanese military never broke down crying after some weak "you-know-what" course. What a bunch of BABIES. You will not see South Korean troops pulling this antics. We never did in the US ARMY either. You would think they had actually gone to war.
Japan, if you want to have a military, sorry, SDF, train them to be MEN. South Korea can teach Japan a lot about that. They don't break down crying like that. I know. I saw them. Those guys are fearless. And that is how the military must be. Get over all of this SDF nonsense. Military is military and should train and act like it as well.
sandiegoluv
@Clemens - The below statement is entirely true. It goes without saying.
Promise!
It did happen a few years back as well. The military was getting fed and the people were starving.
Ben Jack
I did not suggest they were any more afraid because of all that. I suggested that they were some of the reasons for it. Concern/fear, whatever you prefer to call it about North Korea has been around for some time as have North Korea's provocative actions.
Again, we disagree. I certainly the average Japanese is concerned about what North Korea does and does worry about how it affects Japan. What I do not think it is is to the point you were suggesting I was saying, which I was not, that stuff about pissing in their pants or whatever.
You do not know anything about me. Please do not make such assumptions. I speak from my own experiences and Japanese people are certainly concerned about North Korea and missiles being shot in their general direction. I never heard anyone ever say pfffttt until the missiles failed.
See the headline. Certainly members of the SDF I've known express concern over NK actions. I think it is wise for the government to keep its options open for preparation in case NK does do something rash. I was not suggesting a rush on average people building bomb shelters or anything.
Then, you might want to lay off the LOL's and sarcasm when quoting such tragedies in future. I found it rather immature to say the least. Making light of missiles being shot in Japan's direction after NK missiles killed people in South Korea and making light of abducted Japanese is certainly not a way to carry on a serious conversation in my opinion.
Right back at you. Do not make light of tragic things and act as if they do not matter. If they do not matter to you, fine. However, realize that others may feel differently and adjust your language accordingly.
You seem to see nothing at all to be concerned about with regard to NK's past and present behavior. I disagree completely. I think it is wise to keep a watch on what they are doing and to have a government and defense force that is prepared in case NK does do something rash. This pact is a good start toward doing this.
Clemens Simon
Best quote of the day yet!
Ben Jack
As sandiegolove correctly points out, you might want to consider fine-tuning your sense of humor. People did die South Korea and the attack was sudden and completely uncalled for. It was huge news here in Japan and shown live on national TV. Their nuclear weapons are quite real and not a charade or ridiculous at all. I do not some Japanese do not care. Some probably do not know where North Korea is on a map. However, to say there is no concern is off the mark in my opinion. Add that to the still on-going abduction situation and North Korea attempting to shoot missiles in Japan's direction and of course there was concern. It was only after the launches failed that people breathed a sigh of relief and many pffft as you say.
Just curious, when do you think you were voted representative expert about all that is Japan and the opinions of those within? Cause I'd love to see the awards show. There are people on this site that have been here for over 40 years. There are Japanese citizens participating. Please do not assume your experience is unique or disqualifies other opinions. You have know idea how many people I know, how I know them and what those people know. Just because the people around you agree with your opinion, does not mean everyone does. I realize this is true for me as well, however, what I am saying is being reflected in the people shown and presented in the Japanese media and their opinion match more closely in general with what I have been saying than yours do. I have seen no one say North Korea is not a concern at all, unless those people did not particularly care about current/world events. As I said before, if your friends were saying pffft before the launches, said that about the South Korean attack and say that about the still on-going abduction situation, they are unusual people.
Ben Jack
sandie,
I agree.
Yes, I am sure that is the case. Still, jokes in such proximity are not appropriate in my opinion. As you said, different sense of humor.
Ben Jack
Exactly. That does not mean we are running around like chickens without heads or that we should go over and stomp the snakes. It just means we are concerned.
Clemens Simon
Jack:
What nuclear weapons?? What I've heard so far is that NK is pursuing a nuclear weapons program. Sources (not rumors) please, Jack! Just because NK has declared they have WMDs doesn't make it so. What has been confirmed is that they have an arsenal of chemical weapons and a nuclear program. Claiming that two earthquakes were caused by nuclear testing doesn't make it so. Neither the USA nor Japan has fully corroborated these nuclear tests claims. The US confirms that CIA reports (that NK has uranium enrichment technology) was incorrect and it is no longer considered a major issue. The CIA has not claimed that NK has nuclear weapons. Facts without the rumors please, Jack! The only thing confirmed is GW Bush including NK in his "axis of evil" (a la Austin Powers) let's-secure-more-oil propaganda program.
Your fear-mongering posts are uncalled for, Jack!
concern and fear:
(confirmed) Japan and South Korea are concerned about North Korean counter-strikes following a military action against North Korea. Duh!
(confirmed) China and South Korea fear the economic and social consequences should the NK government collapse. Duh!
Isn't it more likely Jack, that NK is using (non-existent) nuclear weapons as a political tool to establishing "normal" relations with the U.S., Japan and South Korea? To end the long-standing economic embargo against North Korea. In exchange for foreign aid including food and fuel? Isn't that the truth? Isn't that all what has been really going on in the last 15-20 years? Confirmed... A bargaining tool for opening (and re-opening time and again) diplomatic discussions.
The LDP (your favorite party I guess?) wants you to believe that the evil NK has 200 nuclear warhead-equiped Rodong missiles aimed at Tokyo. They want to change Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution, Jack! Do you want that too? Do you want Japan to have armed forces with war potential, Jack? Is that your agenda? Fear-mongering??
Or are you just trying to justify the US armed forces in Japan? If so, tell me this, Jack... Are they going to invade North Korea any time soon? After all, they have weapons of mass destruction and are part of the axis of evil...
Oh, Jack... LOL
Clemens Simon
"pffff" in Japanese would be "hai hai" (followed by chuckes) and if you're really talking from experience as you claim, then you should have heard lots of those before the April 2012 missile launch that was supposed to put a satellite into orbit.
Lots of "hai hai" before the actual launch because we were shown footage of the control center which was straight out of a Dr. Who episode, and of course the "high-tech" NK satelite/missile held together with bolts and scews readily available from your local DIY store.
You wouldn't have heard Japanese go "pfffff" ("hai hai") before another missile launch back in 1993 because it wasn't disclosed to the public until after. That also goes for the failed satellite missile in 1998.
Ben Jack
Clemens,
Are you for real? North Korea has been confirmed to have conducted nuclear tests at least twice. You are unaware of this? The IAEA shares this opinion. Just how is it that you feel you are more qualified than these people to make judgements about nuclear tests? Because you dislike the US? Perhaps you are not ready for this discussion.
I am merely stating facts.
You are the one bringing up the US and its forces. The article is about Japan and South Korea. I am talking about this article and NK's relationship with Japan and its possible dangers. I could not care less if the US left Japan.
What did you think I spelled wrong? What do you think is funny? Sorry, again your sense of humor escapes me.
Clemens Simon
Jack, "conducted nuclear tests at least twice" (by either the US or Japan) doesn't mean they have nuclear missiles...
Enough with the fear-mongering exaggerations already!
What's funny is that you seem to be of the opinion that Japanese don't know where NK is. You're a blast, Jack!
Clemens Simon
(by either the US or Japan) should read (not confirmed by either the US or Japan)
Ben Jack
Ahem, I am still waiting for the link to the clip of you receiving the award for being the representative of all of Japan and its citizens. You admitted your aquaintances were concerned about North Korea. You decided to amend it later because what you wrote did not fit into the neat squares you were trying to hammer your triangles of arguments into. Ask your friends again. 'Are you concerned about North Korea?' I highly doubt they are going to say, 'Yeah, yeah, there's nothing at all to worry about.' If they do, they are unusual Japanese. In fact, the more you write about how much you know about the Japanese, the less I believe you even live here.
Ben Jack
It means it is at least possible.
Neither fear-mongering, nor exaggerations. Just stating facts. Try to breathe.
Do you know what the words 'some' or 'probably' mean? Consider looking them up.
Both these countries and the IAEA agree that NK did the tests. Your qualifications for disagreement are what, again?
Clemens Simon
Okay Jack. I guess we're done here.
I don't live here and North Korea has nuclear weapons.
Never had such a lame discussion in my life!
Ben Jack
Don't know about the first part. The second part I agree with. You really need to consider relaxing and you also should consider that you do not know everything about Japan or the Japanese. Acting like you do does not enhance your argument.
Clemens Simon
Jack:
Yes, Jack. That's more like it. Possible.
That kind of conflicts with your previous statement:
Anyway, since the evil NK has never showed any proof of such nuclear weapons and your Central Intelligence Agency has never proven or claimed that NK has nuclear weapons, who do you think those Japanese are gonna believe - your fear-mongering sensationalistic comments or the facts? Right.... Hence, the reason Japanese don't fear NK.
Clemens Simon
Good to know that the South Koreans are gonna share intelligence with Japan (and the other way around) on NK's nuclear developments, obviously since this is in the interest of both countries. NK ranks highest in the list of nuclear safety concerns (Japan has already proven its incompetence!) and we should all keep a close eye on their nuclear weapons program as this might elevate tensions in the whole region. My personal thoughts are that NK is going for the sales of such weapons (once they develop a functioning missile) rather than actually using them. Further "blackmail" tactics into forcing foreign aid are likely to come about and these threats should be evaluated carefully and refused if they have no merit. Sorry to say this isn't a very humane thing to do, but might actually work in that more people will volt against those in power there.
Ben Jack
? Nuclear bombs are weapons. I never said they had nuclear missiles.
Ahem,
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aO7kW.RjqqaE&refer=japan
Ahem,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6056370.stm
Ahem,
http://www.iaea.org/blog/feeds/?p=6327
Ahem,
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/04/us-nuclear-nkorea-iaea-idUSBRE8430HS20120504
Now what was your proof that they were just earthquakes, again? That is not proving a negative. You claimed they were earthquakes. What makes you say that?
Come on. What's next? 'I know you are, but what I am'? You have been rather rude and condescending through out this discussion making false assumptions all the way along. Your language betrays you.
Yes, you claimed you knew how to create just that special environment to get the Japanese to say what they really want to say. Please. They were probably afraid of getting you angry so they just said anything to make you happy. See, I can make assumptions, too.
No, you claimed they were just earthquakes. Where is your proof of this? You have seen some of mine. Your turn.
Ben Jack
I see. You were dumbing things down for the plebs, huh? Pardon me for saying I do not think it was necessary and furthemore I saw no one suggesting the SDF did not have the capacity to become an army.
They are. Their purposes are different. Japanese SDF is truly a self-defense force.
The weapons they have do not change that.
Yes, of course. However, those changes would not be easy in coming at all. Not in the present political climate.
Clemens Simon
Jack, why do you insist on making me repeat myself??
Again,
"conducted nuclear tests at least twice" doesn't mean they have nuclear missiles...
So the UN nuclear chief wouldn't be surprised blablabla... and the tests were confirmed...
What does that prove? That the Japanese I spoke with over the 21 years that I've been here are scared of North Korea? That even the tv commentators dont make light and fun of North Korea's so-called "threat" with those flip flop missiles of theirs?
You've proven jack!
"conducted nuclear tests at least twice" doesn't mean they have nuclear missiles...
You said so yourself:
Yes, Jack. I agree with you. It's possible. Okay?
But that doesn't mean that we're all as scared and paranoid as you are.
You were the one who brought up rockets/missiles and fear by the way.
Sleep well with your lights on, Jack. Good night.
Ben Jack
Since I never said it did, you did not need to repeat this. So, why did you?
It proves you were wrong.
I've proven you wrong.
Okay.
I specifically said I was not talking about paranoia. In fact, I was specific at least eight or so times. Do you have trouble reading by any chance?
Yes, however I never talked about nuclear missiles. You did. I specifically said I was not talking about running around like crazy people pissing their pants and being paranoid. I talked about fear and then carefully and several times explained that it was fear/concern born of North Korea's documented actions up to this point. You turned it into meaning if people have fears about North Korea that they must be paranoid nuts running around pissing their pants. My comment about the element of fear was in direct response to your suggesting there was absolutely nothing to fear from North Korea. You have been shown to be incorrect about that.
Again, why is it so hard for you to have a mature conversation? Try it some time, you might actually find you enjoy it.
Ben Jack
Here is some bedtime reading for you. Good night.
http://mansfieldfdn.org/backup/polls/pdf/Hassig_commentary.pdf
I guess half of Japan is paranoid, running around pissing their pants and sleeping with their lights on, huh?
Then again, maybe it is only natural to be concerned when you have a nut for a neighbor.
Sleep tight.
Michael Jun Sung Shim
The signing of military agreement between Seoul & Tokyo has been put off indefinitely.It's obvious that Korean political circle wanted to tear apart the agreement because they are using Korea's anti-Japan sentiment to achieve their political aims in order to cripple the current Korean government.
But it's Korea who called off the agreement so I don't blame Japan for this.Korea next time you are about to sign an international agreement with any country please save yourself from embarassment by delaying a government promise to carry it out.I think Koreans should try to make more efforts to appreciate Japan because today's Japan is vastly different from Imperial Japan 60 years ago since WWII ended.
The U.S.A. had even a bloodier war with Japan than Japanese annexation of Korea and yet 80% of Japanese show favourable reaction to Washington..If the U.S. & Japan can get along so well why not between Korea and Japan also? Koreans should show more understanding of Japan and show some more empathy to Japan and just forgive and forget Japan's wrongdoings in Korea and elsewhere.
So my conclusion is Korea go ahead and sign the military agreement with Japan.It will do Korea a lot of good to carry out the agreement after signing it!!
Clemens Simon
Jack:
I knew it. I just knew it!! ROFL! The Yomiuri? The Liberal Democratic Party supporting Yomiuri? Those who want to change Article 9 of the Japanese Constitution so that Japan can have armed forces with war potential. I bet you also read the Sankei Shimbun which denies the Nanjing Massacre and praises George W. Bush. How about tv, Jack? Big Nihon Terebi (Nittere - Channel 4) fan also, eh?
Sorry, Jack. The people around me read the Asahi Shimbun - Japan's liberal elite newspaper, preferred by lawyers, college professors, etc. The one that publishes the Japanese edition of the Herald Tribune in cooperation with the New York Times.
Yes, Jack. Very uneasy. Do you see the difference now? Now, can you guess why half of those peeps feel uneasy?
Have a nice weekend!
Clemens Simon
S Korea delays signing of military pact with Japan
Clemens Simon
No, Jack. As per your own link (Yomiuri newspaper article);
43% of Yomiuri-reading, LDP-backing, NTV-watching, already-brainwashe- into-being-scared-sh*tless-of-NK people confirmed their fear by stating that they feel extremely threatened. I guess the remaining 57% of those people feel somewhat threatened and just plain old threatened.
These people do not represent half of Japan, Jack. They definitely do not represent me or the people around me.
They represent people like you. That's why you put the quotes up here. Because you feel extremely threatened. Figures!
Clemens Simon
It seems not, again as per your quote:
Only 18% of South Koreans (direct neighbor) feel extremely threatened in one poll.
Only 24% of South Koreans (direct neighbor) feel very uneasy in another poll.
Ben Jack
Clemens,
You lost this one. I proved fear on the part of the Japanese and I proved NK possession of nuclear weapons (bombs, you were the one attempting to bring nuclear missiles into the discussion.) You can attempt to LOL your way out of it. However, you did not prove your case. I proved mine. By the way, it was not a very long paper. Did you even read it? It explains why more of the Japanese were afraid of North Korea are. You see, the reaons I linked it was because I actually read it.
Please stop reading things into things that are not there. I linked and quoted a report that talks about two newspapers. One that you evidently like. They both came up with the same results. The results prove you wrong and prove me correct. Your attempt to inject your own personal and political beliefs and your attempt to assume my personal and political beliefs in a discussion where they have no place is merely your attempt to hide the fact that you did not know what you were talking about and to derail the discussion into areas that we are not even discussing here. Nanking? Are you for real?
Yes, which is also mentioned in the article.
Between what? What I have been saying and what the Asahi found? No, I do not. I said Japanese had fears of North Korea and you said they did not. The Asahi found a large number of Japanese feel very uneasy about North Korea. The Asahi's survey proves me correct. Do you see this now? You were wrong when you many times in this discussion wrote that Japanese do not have fears about North Korea. Do you see this now?
Yes, 1) I wrote the reasons many times in this discussion. 2) They are talked about in my link. 3) Seriously, do you have trouble reading?
Yes, evidently some in the SK government still do not trust Japan. Personally, I think that is ridiculous.
Yes, like I have been saying if you had actually attempted to read what I have been writing all this time. The majority have fears of North Korea. I never suggested all did. I acknowledged you and your friends and their opinions existed. I merely said they were unusual. I stick with that.
I did not put the quotes up there. The paper I linked did. Seriously, consider going back to school and taking a light reading class or something. Your lack of attention to details is astounding.
Ahem, we were and are talking about Japanese attitudes. Sorry, you cannot back away from your failures in this discussion. You were and still are wrong.
I said the Japanese had fears about North Korea and I proved it. You are the one that has been attempting and failing to change the meaning of my words. Again, you were wrong.
Clemens Simon
Yomiuri readers - threatened (feeling susceptible to an attack)
Asahi readers - uneasy (feeling worried or unhappy about a particular situation)
Ben Jack
Clemens,
Do you realize you have added no useful or valuable information in this discussion? All you have done is randomly named things you do not like: LDP, Fox, Bush, Right Wingers, etc. None of which have either anything to do with me or this discussion.
Gee, you mean like I have been saying since the beginning of my appearance in this discussion? Yes, I am right and you are wrong.
You have been wrong about all of your claims in this discussion with me. You have been proven wrong about all of your claims in this discussion with me. Ignorance? Have a look in the mirror, sunshine.
Clemens Simon
Jack,
You started off talking about fear:
...and have been trying desperately to back peddle those statements ever since. lol.
You knew you had to because, well clearly... 心配 doesn't equal 恐怖 (the surveys were in Japanese not English).
I'm happy with where we are right now, Jack - you finally admitting that it's not fear but a concern. Something I have been telling you from the beginning. They're not the same. Please refrain from any further 扇情的な comments.
Thank you.
Ben Jack
Ahem, look again. I was the one that mentioned concern first as an explanation of what I meant by fear. I clearly said what I meant.
Fear/concern/anxiety/worry can and do mean the same thing depending on the context. I explained my context. The Japanese explanation I gave is also correct in the context I used the word fear.
1) The dictionary examples are correct. (If you do not like Yahoo, please feel free to use any dictionary you like in the context that I presented. 2) My use of both the English and the Japanese were correct. 3) I explained the context of what wrote in both Japanese and English. 4) My explanation was correct.
The thing is you are wrong. You wrote that the Japanese no longer fear North Korea. You wrote that they are not longer concerned with North Korea. Surveys by two Japanese newspapers prove you wrong. By the way, with the Asahi Newspaper survey, readers were invited to submit answers. With the Yomiuri, it was done by telephone at random. Both groups consisted of Japanese people. Now, you may somehow think it is fair to discount the opinions of Japanese people with whom you think you have political differences, however they are Japanese citizens and their opinions all count. You claimed there was no threat from North Korea and even went as far as to claim nuclear tests were earthquakes. You were wrong.
Seriously, it seems you have some fans here on JT and more power to you for that. However, when have I said what you or your aquaintances, etc should be? It is you that seems ot think only one way (yours, of course) of thinking about this issue is possible. I have never once tried to convince you or anyone else of how you feel about something. Not once. I have merely been attempting to explain to you how most Japanese feel about this. Again, you claimed that Japanese, and you did not qualify this to mean only the people you know, are not concerned about North Korea and you have been proven incorrect. about that.
Clemens Simon
You write 'fears' I read 'fears'.
You say 'fears' I hear 'fears'.
Japan's fears as in 'the Japanese fear North Korea'.
That's clearly a generalization and an ignorant at that.
Now that you back peddled it to 'concerned' and 'uneasy', I'm fine with it.
I really needed you to understand that your original claim (Japan's fears) does not apply to me or the people around me.
Okay?
Ben Jack
Again. In response to your misunderstanding what I meant in my third or so post to you I clearly explained what I meant when I saw you thought it meant something else. I have attempted to make my opinion quite clear from the beginning. I used the word 'concern'. It is not backpeddling if I have been saying the same thing all along. When you overreacted to word fear, I merely explained what I meant. You, on the other hand, have been claiming their is no fear or concern (although for a split second in one post you admitted the people you knew were concerned about North Korea). Then you claimed that you meant they were concerned for North Korea instead. That, my poster, is back peddling.
First of all, how could it? You said you were not Japanese. Second I never suggested it applied to you. As to your aquaintances, I merely said they were unusual. The surveys I presented seem to bare this out.
Okay?
Ben Jack
We did not need your version of our discussion. It is right here. Your version neglects elements of the conversation that make it seem as if you were correct. You were not, in fact, correct.
p.s. If you want people to call you by your first name, consider changing your name order to reflect the fact you are communicating in English.
Ben Jack
The name, again, is Ben. As I pointed out, you are free to think Japanese people should or should not be afraid/have concerns about North Korea. However, as I pointed out, a majority do in fact have fears/concerns about North Korea. What is your proof again that they don't or that the majority of Japanese people do not have fears or concerns about North Korea? In all this discussion you see, you have never brought any data to the discussion. Surely you do not think you and your friends opinions should be considered the opinions of all of Japan merely based on your say so?
Ben Jack
Sorry, I meant to say you neglect elements of the conversation and that makes it seem as if you are correct. In fact, you were not correct.
Clemens Simon
But, you're 50% correct, Ben. We ARE afraid. We fear the USA. I guess you know why...
Clemens Simon
Of course not. That's why I specifically posted what I posted.
Clemens Simon
Sorry, I thought they were both first names (like mine).
Ben Jack
Bottom line, I backed up my statement that Japanese fear North Korea with surveys that confirm what I said.
You claimed that Japan no longer fears North Korea and you have not backed this up at all. Why is that?
Hmmm, I always assumed English speakers used the first name in the word order.
Ben Jack
I never said everyone in Japan feared North Korea.
No, you stated Japan no longer fears North Korea. You see, your statement is much more absolute than mine was. You merely backed up your statement with your anecdotes about yourself and your aquaintances. I backed up mine with data from surveys from major Japanese newspapers. Understand?
You should have left it at this. Mentioning that both are first names, when clearly one comes before the other, adds no reason why should would call people by their second name assuming it is their first.
Ben Jack
One other point about the surveys, you are making the mistaken assumption that the rest polled voted that they were not afraid at all of North Korea. Unless you have some figures to back that up, you really should not be assuming it.
Clemens Simon
Yes, you did. You did it on June 28 at 12:04PM:
and again yesterday at 10:47PM:
Ben Jack
Yet you asked for proof that they confirmed the nuclear tests. I give it to you and you say it does not mean anything. Sorry, still does not make sense.
Huh?
You just wrote
Me:
You:
In the other discussion, I just wrote:
Now, you wrote it again above right here in this very discussion:
You again just wrote that you do not believe the Japanese fear North Korea. Your words again and they are in absolute terms. I have shown you Japanese people do have fears about North Korea using major newspapers' suryveys.
Now, back up your claim as you just wrote that Japanees do not fear North Korea. Please use actual data. Thanks.
Ben Jack
Nope. I never wrote everyone. I never wrote that in such absolute terms. I allowed for differing opinions right from the beginning, I just termed them unusual. You wrote and just wrote again that the fear does not exist. That is an absolute statement. Could you back it up now with some actual data?
Ben Jack
You just wrote the Japanese do not fear North Korea. You did not write generally.
Prove it with data.
No, my surveys, as evidenced by the commentary in them, prove the majority do in fact fear North Korea. You wrote that they do not. Prove it with data.
Ben Jack
In case you did not notice, you just wrote it again. You claim all the Japanese do not fear North Korea. Of course, it is not true. A majority do seem to have fears about North Korea. You never, ever qualified your statement in the days and days we have been going at it. You merely claimed you did not say what I said you did. I pasted what you said and you do not even apologize for accusing me of lying. You wrote it and you denied it, even though it was right here. Seriously bad show.
Ben Jack
Never said it. Never will. I wrote that the fear exists and you claimed I was 'fearmongering'. In fact, you wrote that several times. You did write the negative in the absolute, though. You cannot escape it. It is here in black and white.
Ben Jack
Where did you write that? Show me. Until this very post, you have never done so. Again, you are writing something that is incorrect. Why do that? Please stop writing things that are not true. It is getting rather tiring continually showing you are mistaken.
Clemens Simon
Well, here for example:
Exist in people like you (and apparently those Japanese you've talked with)? I'm sure of it. There will always be people who believe anything the government is feeding them. Sure, let them control your spending habits! Allow the silly propaganda and eat it all up for all I care. It's your prerogative. I, on the other hand, do not believe in the so-called "fear" you talk and neither do the Japanese I've talked with over the last 21 years.
and here:
and here:
Seems I did. They ALL represent my POV - Not all Japanese fear North Korea.
Ben Jack
Still nope. Never said it. Never will.
Never said all the Japanese people fear North Korea. You can say what you imagined it meant. However, it does not say that and I never meant that.
Says the person that said,
That is an absolute. To say there are fears,does not mean everyone. It merely means the fear exists, which is what I wrote. You wrote an absolute in the negative, not just once either. Sorry, you are mistaken, both in content and in language. Not the first for you, either.
Let's look at the quote in the context, shall we?
You have not said some here, or a few here. You clearly use language to indicate that all of the Japanese have not feared North Korea for a very long time. As I wrote to you way in the beginning of our discussion, perhaps you have and continue to overspeak your point?
Again, strong words. However, I have not generalized or lied at all. I have not misrepresented anything at all. I have been quite straightforward in my discussion in the face of what has been IMHO very strong vitriol and very strong and false accusations (my party affiliation, what newspaper or TV I use, etc). You generalized about quite a large population of Japanese people here in this discussion (Yomiuri readers, for one) and you certainly should not go abou throwing stones whilst living in that glass house.
Again, I merely innocently talked about fears in Japan and you leaped in with your LOLs and your ROTFL's and painted me with a giant brush of generalization. Then you responded with an absolute negative that left no wiggle room at all:
Quite frankly, the above statement is not only incorrect, to tell the truth, I think it is rather condescending towards Japanese in general as well.
Ben Jack
Yes, I never said, 'all Japanese fear North Korea.
Me:
You:
Oops again for you. Also, I did say:
Wow, again you claim something that is not true. You just claimed I did not say the above. Why do you keep doing this?
Again, I never, ever claimed all the Japanese people fear North Korea. You suggested an absolute negative. You did suggest there was no really longer any fear of North Korea and you even managed to lump all Japanese into being K-pop and Korean actor fans. It seems you do not actually take Japanese opinons about world affairs very seriously to generalize in such a way.
Clemens Simon
So when you said "Japan's fear of North Korea" you meant "the fears of some Japanese of North Korea"?
Okay. Then maybe you should have stated it like that.
Okay. I understand. Please try not to anymore. Thank you.
Ben Jack
Yes, an example where it seems that any Japanese that disagrees with you appears to be a simpering, weak-minded person that eats up silly propaganda and what? The 'normal' people agree with you? The problem is that you wrote above again that:
You do not believe the Japanese fear North Korea? After all this you repeated your claim again in absolutes with no qualification whatsoever.
So, as it stands, I never claimed all Japanese fear North Korea. You have claimed a couple of time that 'Japanese (no some anywhere to be seen) do not fear North Korea'. You even went as far as to say that you 'don't believe the Japanese fear North Korea' even after being presented several times with evidence to the contrary.
Ben Jack
It never occurred to me that I would have to. It seemed rather obvious to me, especially after my explaining it.
Why? It was my opinion. I did not say they were bad, crazy, paraoid or make them out to be silly, scared pissing in their pants people. I just felt based on surveys and such that I had seen that they were usual.
I am glad to have your understanding finally. Thank you, too.
Ben Jack
Never said it. Never will. Please point to where I said it. I would be happy to see it. Unless you can successfully do that, you certainly should consider not suggesting it anymore.
Never said that was not the case. Never have. Never will
Never said that was not the case. Never have. Never will
So, this was not true, huh? Let's add that on the pile.
Ben Jack
Nope. Not even close. It means fears in Japan. It does not and never has meant fear on the part of every single Japanese person. Never did. Never will.
Your remark that
is not only a generalization, it is a false one. You were and are still wrong. You then discounted the opinions of Japanese people based solely on the newspaper that took a survey of them. Again not only a generalization, it is a false one. You do not know what their politics is and anything about them, except they answered a survey and you did not like their answers. Again not only a generalization, it is a false one.
You wrote that the Japanese (not some or a few, but 'the' Japanese) haven't really feared NK for a very long time. Of course you have been trying to escape it, but you were not only wrong, but you were wrong in an amazingly inescapable way. You wrote a negative in an absolute. No wiggle room there.
Ben Jack
No, that is not what what you wrote means. It just is not. Again, you wrote 'In fact the Japanese haven't really feared NK for a very long time.' There is absolutely no way to take that as what you claim it to mean. There just is not. You then wrote it again, 'You believe the Japanese fear North Korea........... I don't'. In both cases, you wrote 'the Japanese', not some Japanese' or 'not all Japanese'. You just did not write that. Your initial response, that you now probably regret, was in response to my suggesting there were Japanese fear. That does not mean all Japanese. It just does not.
By the way, the surveys proved my case that fears do exist.
You cannot escape what you wrote and you cannot escape the way you cannot seem to handle opposition of opinion to your own. You jumped in like a bull in a china shop and you should have thought more before you wrote.
Ben Jack
Sorry, you also followed it up with this:
Three problems. 1) No 'really'. No qualifer at all.
2) I never ever said all. However, your sentence here, where you wrote 'the Japanese' does mean that.
3) You also wrote this:
Speaking of generalizations. Sorry, you lose. Really mate, why are you continuing this charade?
Clemens Simon
Best quote of the day yet!
Clemens Simon
I like that! Funny way of putting it...
Thumbs up sandiegoluv!
I like a gal who stands up for herself.
Even though I don't particularly agree with you on this subject, I still like you for your passion.
Keep it up.
Probie
On the news. Search on Youtube.
There was this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeNJN8K7sLk
There's blubbering after about 5 minutes.
This should read:
“It is an undeniable fact that the existence U.S. forces in Japan as well as in South Korea is important for our national security,” the official said.
Clemens Simon
Hahahahaha! Oh, boy... I shouldn't have assumed but YES, that's what I did... Automatically. Glad we straightened that one out!
Clemens Simon
Not doing that, not saying that.
Jack, please send the following link to your aquaintances (it might take away the "fear"):
http://www.asiapress.org/apn/archives/2011/09/22130105.php
Jimizo
Interesting line at the end of the article. It's only a matter of time before South Korea is drawn into China's sphere of influence anyway.
Opinionhated
Call turds roses and they don't smell any different. The self-defense force is a military. They have guns, bombs, fighter jets, carriers, destroyers, tanks and everything every other military does.
And as per the Constitution they are not allowed a military, whether its called roses, turds or a self-defense force.
And the information that will be shared is the type of that common oxymoron, military intelligence.
Clemens Simon
Jack,
Let's go back to where you entered the word 'fear' into the discussion...
You backed it up with examples of how SK people have died at the hand of those NK soldiers. Although tragic, I don't see any Japanese being anymore "afraid" of NK as they were before all of that. The South Koreans probably are, but not the Japanese. The Japanese might be worried FOR their Kpop buddies and Hangul actors but that's about the extend of it. In fact the Japanese haven't really feared NK for a very long time.
About those NK missiles.... Man, you should really try and talk with Japanese in a Japanese setting, using Japanese while being (and I use this term lightly) "excepted" as one of them and not as some outsider (see my avatar) they do not want to upset, insult or make feel uncomfortable. If you had done that, with practically any age group, than you would've found out how they really feel about them "scary" missiles. "pfffffff" is the general expression followed by talk of how lame NK continues to act. I can tell you, the "hiniku" (sarcasm) is always laid on preeeeetty thick.
Question: You say you see people worried and scared "preparing in case something were to happen". Who exactly are you talking about and what are they doing?
One more thing, I'm not making jokes about actual incidents where people were hurt, killed or kidnapped. I thought I made that clear IN CAPITALS. You continuing to insinuate I did or do is just.... Whatever, just keep it mature.
sandiegoluv
@ Clemens - I have to agree with you here. I have been here 20 plus years and I don't see anyone really worrying or preparing for the worst. Most Japanese people that I TALK TO have the same comment about North Korea. If anything the threat from North Korea is more or less joked about. Somewhere along the lines of "Oh, here we go again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right". That is what I get from the people I know.
Now, I will say this, I do get a different reaction when missiles are being test fired, or missiles are being fired over Japan. I honestly don't get a pffff at all unless someone has been drinking. Then people seem to be worried about that and what to do about it, but surprisingly enough a few days later and all is back to normal and North Korea becomes as pathetic as the older drunk guy who suddenly thinks he is all that, and tries to pick up on some hot girls in the bar with his fly gaping open as if to say, "HELLO" and his hair peace hanging off to one side. That is how most Japanese view them until the next missile firings.
The people who do stay excited are the ones who have the most to gain from it. Ant-North groups, politicians with no seriously good ideas but use the North and China to try to whip people into supporting their sagging ratings or their election campaigns and the media. Other than that, nobody really gives an uncle about it.
sandiegoluv
Plus the Japanese don't worry about it that much because they know the US will not put up with North Korea attacking Japan for a second. Can you say, "NEW PARKING AREA"? That is why most Japanese are not concerned very much .
Yeah, they can bash the S-H-I..... no wait, let me reword with something of the same meaning.
They can bash the "GEORGE BUSH" out of us sometimes, but they know that North is not that STUPID. .
sandiegoluv
But this all bothers me. I think they should be concerned with what North Korea is doing. I think some are, but not as many as should be. And certainly not the right ones.
sandiegoluv
@Ben
Agreed and rightly so. Good point. The North has been quite provocative. Like rattle snakes, shaking their rattles, no biting just yet but I wouldn't leave my foot there.
Now, this is the one group who has openly expressed general concern and I don't feel has an ulterior motive for that. I know someone is going to say, "So that they can bring back the old days" but come on, now. That is just propaganda.
Anyway, I think that Japanese should be much more concerned about the North Korean issue and we should not make light of that fear at all. It is a justifiable fear and one that the North and stroked with great lust in the hopes that the US and Japan will do more to help it.
Hopefully there is aren't any teeth in that rattle snake's mouth.
Good points though. As for Clemens trying to joke about this issue, I also got a little perturbed with him earlier about it, but don't think his sense of humor had any maliciousness about it at all. Maybe just a different sense of humor.
sandiegoluv
DARN IT. These Quotes work sometimes and then not at others.
@Ben
Agreed and rightly so. Good point. The North has been quite provocative. Like rattle snakes, shaking their rattles, no biting just yet but I wouldn't leave my foot there.
sandiegoluv
Now, this is the one group who has openly expressed general concern and I don't feel has an ulterior motive for that. I know someone is going to say, "So that they can bring back the old days" but come on, now. That is just propaganda.
Anyway, I think that Japanese should be much more concerned about the North Korean issue and we should not make light of that fear at all. It is a justifiable fear and one that the North and stroked with great lust in the hopes that the US and Japan will do more to help it.
Hopefully there is aren't any teeth in that rattle snake's mouth.
Good points though. As for Clemens trying to joke about this issue, I also got a little perturbed with him earlier about it, but don't think his sense of humor had any maliciousness about it at all. Maybe just a different sense of humor.
Clemens Simon
Jack, you're making me repeat myself!
I'd like to add people killed in South Korea (although that doesn't really concern my initial point or the Japanese) to "missile launches and abduction".
Okay?
So you know a couple of people in the SDF and you got the impression they are "concerned" about North Korea? And they agreed with your assessment that [quote] its a good idea that the Japanese government and the SDF are prepared just in case NK does something rash [end quote]?
Pffffff.
mikemcfly87
@Sandie - I meant actively. As in Passive and Active. Wrong wording.
Opinionhated
I have learned that if you don't express things a certain way, people forget it tomorrow. I am the type of person that readily absorbs clear, plain, dry facts. Most people seem to require the imagery.
People really think a self-defense force and a military are completely difference. Its a surprisingly deeply ingrained fallacy. You cannot knock people awake with a sponge. You have to use a hammer. If my words were crude, they were supposed to be.
And I don't have a problem with Japan calling its military a self-defense force. I have a problem with people misunderstanding what it means whenever the Constitution comes up plus not understanding that they are quite capable of launching an invasion somewhere. It just requires a few political changes is all.
sfjp330
Michael Jun Sung Shim Jun. 30, 2012 - 01:13AM JST I think Koreans should try to make more efforts to appreciate Japan because today's Japan is vastly different from Imperial Japan 60 years ago since WWII ended. Koreans should show more understanding of Japan and show some more empathy to Japan and just forgive and forget Japan's wrongdoings in Korea and elsewhere.
It's probably easy for you to say. Then, why don't you explain the politicians that still visit Yasukuni. In the real world, people are defined by what they do. The 14 class A war criminals in Yasukuni are defined by the brutality of the regimes they ruled and the shame and defeat they brought to Japan. Last August, like every year, 50+ of these J-goverment officials that represents millions of Japanese people in their district visits Yasukuni, he or she is, whether he likes to or not, implicitly endorsing their actions. Actions which included the murder of millions of Chinese, Koreans, Philipinos, slavery, the murder of POWs and human experimentation. Even today, Japan talks about the apologies, but their actions say otherwise. If the relations with neighboring countries are so important, their actions do not show it.
Clemens Simon
I have stated:
It means what it says.
It means that it is likely that the Japanese (generalizing it to mean ALL Japanese) feared North Korea.
Nowadays, however, the Japanese (generalizing it to mean ALL Japanese) don't fear North Korea.
You further proved it for me with your links to the surveys.
Clemens Simon
LOL You're back peddling even now... You said:
Clemens Simon
The way you put it, ALL Japanese fear North Korea.
But you did. Several times actually. Here, one example:
You generalized. You shouldn't (have).
Most of my family, friends etc. are Japanese and you have no right to post lies about them.
There's nothing innocent about lying and generalizing.
Clemens Simon
Believing everything that the UN, CIA, IAEA etc tell you to believe... That's all.
ka_chan
So how is a intelligence pact as military pact?
INFOWARSJAPAN
The US uses North Korea to scare Japan into buying weapons from the US.
sandiegoluv
@INFOWARSJAPAN The below statement is nonsense. This is just one of those, "I HATE THE USA and I want everyone else to as well". Propaganda just to divide people and promote unnecessary hatred and mistrust!!
sandiegoluv
Man the quotes are not working for me today.
@INFOWARSJAPAN The below statement is nonsense. This is just one of those, "I HATE THE USA and I want everyone else to as well". Propaganda just to divide people and promote unnecessary hatred and mistrust!!
sandiegoluv
@Probie - Where did you see this? What was the name of the show? Is it on YOU TUBE?
sandiegoluv
@mikemcfly87
Sorry, but if you are going to have a military force at all, it needs to train aggressively and learn how to protect their country as best way possible. Otherwise it is just a pure waste of money. But what else is new here?
sandiegoluv
@Clemens - Best quote of the day?? Really? I hope you are being cynical here. Because I was laughing when I read it. Sorry. I normally agree with you.
sandiegoluv
It is just in my nature to apologize, especially with someone who I feel that most of the time is spot on. So once again, my apologies. hehe
sandiegoluv
@Probie - Thanks for the follow up. I will check it out.
@Clemens - Now I'm the one the one who LMFAO. I am a dude. Just a big teddy bear. Now, I see my mistake. I wrote hehe instead of haha. Damn.Haha.
sandiegoluv
ROFLMFAO!! I guess luv in the name kills my malehood too.
Oh, boy. Hey, that's me!
Clemens Simon
I was thinking Sandie as the one in Grease but you're more of a Sandie as in that short rusty-looking lawyer in one of those tv series I can't seem to remember.
Clemens Simon
Ben Jack,
Somehow I thought you were talking about Japan's fears of North Korea due to them having shot 2 rockets/missiles in the last 14 years and abducted Japanese citizens 30 years ago.
Clemens Simon
Concerned? To a certain degree...
Filled with fear? No, don't think so.
Clemens Simon
Ouch...
Your aquaintances seem to be all pissing their pants, so I'm throwing that one right back at you, Jack!
Clemens Simon
Actually Jack...
They are more concerned FOR North Korea.
Clemens Simon
And while you're at it, please look up the meaning of 'concerned'. It is not a synonym of 'afraid'.
Clemens Simon
Them NK soldiers don't look all that vicious to me, Jack!
http://www.asiapress.org/apn/archives/2012/06/26094734.php
The JP government will be sending loads of food their way, though.
Promise!
sandiegoluv
@Clemens - By the way, I am not the one who thumbed you down.
Sorry, Moderator. I just wanted to make sure that to show that I am not being childish and thumbing the guy down. Whoever thumbed the guy down was just doing it to be MEAN. There was no reason at all for that because he didn't say anything wrong.
Clemens Simon
Be Jack,
Exist in people like you (and apparently those Japanese you've talked with)? I'm sure of it. There will always be people who believe anything the government is feeding them. Sure, let them control your spending habits! Allow the silly propaganda and eat it all up for all I care. It's your prerogative. I, on the other hand, do not believe in the so-called "fear" you talk and neither do the Japanese I've talked with over the last 21 years. If you watch tv, you can actually hear and see a lot of commentators make fun and light NOT OF THE INCIDENTS (missile launches and abductions) which is also NOT MY INTENTION, but of the ridiculousness behind the NK "power" and the fear it's trying so hard to press on its neighbours but how that is actually one of the biggest charades of the century.
Clemens Simon
Oh yes, those. Allow me to LOL? Two failed attempts in 14 years. Yeah, we're all scared sh*tless. Another great photo-op to show off those USA Aegis missile destroyers, is more like it.
Oh yes... 1977 to 1983, how could I forget? Abductions that happend 30 years ago makes the average Japanese citizen in 2012 shiver with fear and this of course justifies the occupation of e.g. Okinawa by US military forces . Silly me.
Probie
Well, I didn't think Korea would need the Japanese military assets, which are the laughing stock of the world. Remember the wishy-washy "Rangers" a few weeks back, who looked utterly exhausted after a short walk through the city and actually cried when they got to their base? Pathetic. More likely that Japanese want Korea's military to help them if they find any trouble with their "intelligence" assets, because the J-military is a pathetic joke that deserves all the derision it gets.