politics

S Korea protests Japanese opinion poll on disputed islands

92 Comments

South Korea issued a formal protest to Japan on Friday after Tokyo conducted a controversial opinion poll that asked citizens their views on a set of islands disputed between the two countries.

The public survey of 3,000 people, released Thursday, showed that six out of 10 Japanese view the Seoul-controlled islands in the Sea of Japan (East Sea) as their country's territory.

"Our government sternly protests Japan's renewed provocative actions," South Korea's foreign ministry said in a statement.

"We strongly urge Japan to stop such actions immediately," it said, adding that provocative remarks by some Japanese leaders are also posing "a serious obstacle" to the constructive development of bilateral ties.

The islands, known as Dokdo in Korean and Takeshima in Japanese, have been the subject of a bitter and decades-old territorial dispute that flared last year.

Though they are key trading partners, relations between the two countries have been regularly strained by a diplomatic discord over Japan's wartime aggression in Korea and the territorial dispute.

Many South Koreans believe Japan has failed to atone for abuses during the 1910-1945 colonial period which remains a constant source of tension.

© (C) 2013 AFP

©2019 GPlusMedia Inc.

92 Comments
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Just keep on provoking. 6 out 10 is nothing to brag about. Maybe Korea will conduct a similar poll. Whoever has the higher result gets to keep the islands.

-14 ( +7 / -21 )

Yea like talking a poll in your own country is a "provocation"? How would South Korea like it if Japan officially protested every time Koreans burned the Japanese flag as a provocation. Or setting up Comfort Women statues everywhere? South Korea is "suppose" to be a civilized democracy but acts just like China and North Korea.

28 ( +38 / -11 )

I'm waiting for the day when South Korean foreign minister Park somethinsomethin declare the existance of Japanese archipelago as 'provacitve' towards proud kanji which means big* Korean people...

6 ( +11 / -5 )

How on earth does this count as a "provocative"? It's an opinion poll for crying out loud.

26 ( +28 / -2 )

Sorry, I forgot the existance of Pleistocene epoch maps which clearly shows that Japan was a part of Korea!

10 ( +13 / -3 )

Up until 1870's, Japan didn't know Dokdo existed and Meiji Japanese goverment acknowledged the ownership of Dokdo as Korean. Three decades later, Japan ridiculously called it 'terra nullius' describes territory that nobody owns so that the first nation to discover it is entitled to take it over, as "finders keepers", but the problem was Koreans already owned the island and used the island it for their fishing grounds.

If you look at the history of Japanese behavior, there is very little to support their actions. The Koreans were never notified of the Dokdo annexation in 1905, when Korea had already become a Japanese colony and had no power to protest the Japanese government's actions. The Japanese claims of this incorporation is invalid because it was done secretly and violated international laws. The Japanese stoled Dokdo in 1905 because of their military needs.

-12 ( +9 / -21 )

There is a saying by Aristophanes “Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but stupid lasts forever.”

18 ( +21 / -3 )

How would South Korea like it if Japan officially protested every time Koreans

That already happens...

-9 ( +6 / -15 )

sfjp330: Following your logic... if Japan "stole" the islands when Korea was a colony of Japan, then Japan didn't steal it from Korea, because Korea was Japan then. Anyway, this thread isn't about the islands. It's about Korea protesting the fact that a survey was carried out in Japan. (Huh?)

12 ( +17 / -5 )

Koreans doing what they do best: whining against Japan.

19 ( +25 / -6 )

sfjp330Aug. 03, 2013 - 07:53AM JST Up until 1870's, Japan didn't know Dokdo existed and Meiji Japanese goverment acknowledged the ownership of >Dokdo as Korean

No that is not true, "MATSUE, SHIMANE PREF. – The Shimane Prefectural Government said Thursday that it has confirmed a historic first: the existence of two rough drafts of maps of Japan from the 18th century that serve as the basis of Japan’s claim to the South Korea-held Takeshima islets in the Sea of Japan. The two maps, both made in the 1760s, reinforce Japan’s claim that the South Korean-administered islands are historically Japanese, the prefectural government said. South Korea seized the islets after the war, and calls the territory Dokdo" . http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/08/01/national/shimane-confirms-1760s-maps-showing-takeshima-as-part-of-japan/#.Ufw7UZDD_0N

12 ( +19 / -7 )

So what exactly do they dislike about the poll... the fact that it was carried out, or the results? You can't really protest results, as a poll is just there to see what people think. If you don't take the poll, you don't know. If it turns out they are misinformed or uninformed, something can be done about it. If it turns out that people have strong opinions one way or the other, we can see where opinions do lay within a country.

15 ( +18 / -3 )

Yea like talking a poll in your own country is a "provocation"? How would South Korea like it if Japan officially protested every time Koreans burned the Japanese flag as a provocation. Or setting up Comfort Women statues everywhere? South Korea is "suppose" to be a civilized democracy but acts just like China and North Korea.

Ossan, Japan does officially protest the things you are talking about here, in fact with regards to the comfort women statues it goes much farther than just protesting too.

They both are like little children playing tit-for-tat games that have greater consequences and neither seems to be able to grow up.

-8 ( +5 / -13 )

zzz.. both sides protest something they don't like that the other side is doing now. Nothing new.

-8 ( +4 / -12 )

Since when have opinion polls done within one's own country been a source of protest from another country?

20 ( +22 / -2 )

The interesting thing is that 40 percent of Japanese don't even view the Dokdo rocks as their own territory. I think they probably realise Japan has so many problems to deal with that squabbling over some rocks is worthless.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

Korea Japan protest angry regrettable

Just add some other words and you get a different headline each day!

4 ( +6 / -2 )

So koreans are angry because someone conducted a poll or are they angry at the fact that some Japanese have an opinion that differs from their own?

14 ( +16 / -2 )

My level of respect for Korea is falling by the day.

18 ( +22 / -4 )

60% is not high as I expected.

0 ( +6 / -6 )

Asking people's opinions is provocative?

14 ( +17 / -3 )

Give it a rest already SK! Jesus Christ. Other countries are allowed to hold opinion polls in their own country.

You don't see the Japanese constantly protesting at your anti Japanese teachings.

14 ( +18 / -4 )

Is there any day that Korea doesn't whine about Japan? It's getting rediculous. Now wonder that they can't re-unify their peninsula if they care about such a small thing rather than more important things.

13 ( +19 / -6 )

Only 6 out of 10? I guess a lot of Japanese must hate their own country.

-8 ( +3 / -11 )

I think 60% is pretty low, considering they actually teach in school that Dokdo/Takeshima is Japanese territory. And even if they did think that the islands were Japanese territory, the majority of them probably don't really give a crap.

-5 ( +5 / -10 )

South Korea's stance on this issue (rightly or wrongly) has been taken to an absurd level. They should have said nothing in response to this survey.

13 ( +16 / -3 )

This is the sort of thing the government of ROK finds time to complain about ? How embarrassing for them.

10 ( +13 / -3 )

This poll is a highly aggressive move designed to give Koreans high blood pressure.

-5 ( +3 / -8 )

A few years ago most Japanese had never heard of Takeshima. After a long media blitz they've all been roundly convinced the Islands are Japanese territory. China, Japan and Korea need to all get over this childish squabbling over territory and learn to share resources in a shrinking world. Unfortunately while Korea has recently elected a woman to be president, all three countries have governments dominated by crotchety old nationalist men, obsessed with the idea of 'greatness'.

-9 ( +3 / -12 )

Nothing wrong with an opinion poll. It is not provocative to ask questions. I am honestly stunned that 4/10 Japanese did not believe Takeshima should be Japanese territory. This point of view is never featured in education or in the media here and I am truly surprised that so many Japanese actually understand this issue enough to not support the national opinion.

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

I've blogged about this several times and have decided neither country has a rock-solid claim, therefore they belong to the French, who named them The Liancourt Rocks.

But seriously, Japan will never get these back thank to two generations of Koreans brainwashing themselves that the rocks are as important to Koreans as the Wailing Wall is to Jews. So move the hell on, Japan, and stop provoking the situation. It could be resolved if only the situation with the Chinese islands weren't also a problem.

-5 ( +7 / -12 )

Abe/ Aso government is doing all these things like island opinion poll, Nazi issue, Diaoyu isles issue.... to stir up Japanese people for only political purpose which all of us know, don't be mad! just watch it like you watch circus clown jump up and down kind of show~~

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

With placing any opinion a poll is usually designed to see the full spectrum asking "I don't know" and not just a simple YES or NO question.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Trivial pursuit springs to mi d every time I hear this tit for tat

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Maybe Japan should just hand them over in a ceremony as compensation for thirty years of occupation, rape and slavery.

-14 ( +3 / -17 )

Where's the provocation? What's wrong with Japan wanting to know what their citizens think about the issue? If South Korea did the same thing, I wouldn't care either way. If you ask me, some nations need to stop acting like babies and grow up. Then maybe, those nations can stop living in the past and look towards a brighter future. If there is anything that they should learn from history, it's this: "living in the past is preventing them from moving on to a better future.". Basically, this means that if they dwell on the negative past (regardless of who is right or wrong... because it's irrelevant), then all there is left is hate and negativity that stops them from moving forward. The cycle has repeated throughout history and will continue to repeat in the future unless some wise leaders say "okay, we need to to stop this stupidity, learn from the past, and move on". Note: my comments are not directed towards South Korea and Japan only; they can be applied to several other nations in this world with their specific issues.

12 ( +14 / -2 )

Korea's idea of bilateral talks is Japan not saying anything.

2 ( +8 / -6 )

They're protesting an opinion poll... There is no hope with this lot it seems...

6 ( +9 / -3 )

I don't understand why the Koreans should care about what Japanese think. Nor is Korea in any place to criticize how Japan gov't takes its polls. What does Korea want Japan to do? Kowtow to the Koreans? You guys are enemies. Just accept that fact and things will go a lot smoother.

Disputing the proclamation of sovereignty is one thing, but complaining about polls being taken? C'mon.

You don't see the Chinese caring for the Japanese opinions. They don't even care about anything the J gov't says. The Chinese only cared about what Japan does. That's what a confidant nation should do. They hit where you will hurt and won't care about all the petty moves that try to cloud the main issues.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

Why does Japan has no right to conduct its opinion poll about it? Korea has no right at all to interfere other countries business. The result is about right. The many people know the history of Takeshima. Despite of the new order of the world based on San Francisco treaty.Korea used force to take over there. Takeshima has been Japan since its promulgation of article 3 also it had been Japan before. Japan keeps its patience for Korean's illegal occupation of Takeshima.

'' Those people who can not face to the past will see no future.'' ( President. Park at The US congress.)Korea needs to take Ms. Park's saying in a consideration to see what Korea has been doing lately. The world has many legal documents as a proof. There many historical proofs since 512 in Korean documents as well. Although Knowing twisted facts from those are being thought to Korean kids. Japan has been patient for a long time.Japan has not claimed Korean text books either. Korea must learn how to keep the minimum order in the Far East. At least, show some respect for the life of Japan. Japan does not need Korea's permission to do any opinion poll in Japan soil. Leave Japan alone.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

First of all, the funny thing is that ROK official government is always just like a hysterical woman toward only Japan. Second of all, I do not really understand why they think it is provocation of Japan to ROK. No country cannot interfere to Japanese internal administration. Japan just researched how their citizens think about territorial issue. I think Japan should break all the economical ties for ROK, and lets see what will happen after that.

0 ( +5 / -4 )

There are two issues in this short article, the past and the islands in question. They are NOT related. Please make your news coverage more accurate. The past is the past, and cannot be changed. Japan has every right to ask its own people their thoughts on any issue, and I dont see Japan telling Korea NOT to talk to its own people ..... hardly fair to expect that Japan should abstain because what Japanese people may think is not what Korea may want them to.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

If Koreans also conduct such polls 99.99999----------------------------- will claim the tiny islands as part of Korean territory. Its the salesman** delemma !

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Tomorrow's opinion poll: Which do you think is correct, "East Sea," or "Sea of Japan?"

4 ( +5 / -1 )

I'm not too surprised that only 60% answered that Takeshima is Japanese. Actually, that's probably about the same percentage that a poll in the US asking if Hawaii was US territory. The 40% probably didn't answer that Takeshima WASN'T Japanese they just no idea what the question was about having slept through most of their secondary school geography classes. Not unique to Japan...

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Here are the numbers and details of the poll.

Those who have heard of Takeshima 94.5% Those who know that historically and legally it is of Japanese sovereignity 60.7% Those who know that it is being currently occupied by Koreans 63.1% Those who have an interest or who have some interest in Takeshima 71.1%, those who have no interest or who have little interest in Takeshima 28.0%

Poll was done in June covering the whole of Japan by face to face interviews of 3000 adults of whom 1784 people answered (59.5%)

Source: http://www.fnn-news.com/news/headlines/articles/CONN00251054.html

4 ( +4 / -0 )

Up until 1870's, Japan didn't know Dokdo existed and Meiji Japanese goverment acknowledged the ownership of Dokdo as Korean.

Actually, it is very tough for Koreans to make such a claim, because a lot of their "evidence" that Dokdo is theirs actually uses JAPANESE maps (generally it runs like "You see, Japan is Color A on this map and this island we claim is Dokdo is Color B"). It really says a lot about the Korean claim when it runs so heavily on Japanese sources...

Anyway, the Koreans actually received a negative reply from America (which has little need to favor Japan at that point with her holding all the cards including Japan's sovereignty) - it is called the Van Fleet report. So they grabbed it by force just before the Treaty of San Francisco.

As for the whole issue, with every day that passes, my sympathy for South Korea fades.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

The poll said 6 out of 10 believe the islands to be Japanese... of those other 4 out of 10, how many actually had an opinion? Not a 'no', but a 'don't know'?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

sfjp330 Aug. 03, 2013 - 07:53AM JST

Up until 1870's, Japan didn't know Dokdo existed

Is that how they teach Koreans in Korea?

A Japanese map of Takeshima drawn in 1696

http://www.pref.shimane.lg.jp/soumu/web-takeshima/takeshima06/index.data/takeshima-leaflet.pdf

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Reading this I can't help but think of the words of the great Ron White: You can't fix stupid.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

Peter Payne:

So move the hell on, Japan, and stop provoking the situation. It could be resolved if only the situation with the Chinese islands weren't also a problem.

The problem here is that Japan isn't provoking the situation. There was a survey of 3,000 people carried out, and the results weren't even too bad for Korea, yet Korea decided they should protest this worthless survey.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

I really wonder why none of Korean media has criticized such protest against Japan. This is amazingly convincing that Korean media as well as their educational circle is responsible for Korean society not being matured or rational.

No wonder Korean media never criticize the case Ms. Oh Seon-hwa was refused entry to SK, despite the fact it is apparently violating freedom of speech. Japan has never done such a thing, and even those who are criticizing Japan can enter the country. Honestly, Japan should. http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/07/31/national/japanese-university-professor-born-in-critical-of-south-korea-says-seoul-barred-her-entry/#.UfzgUVSCiZN

6 ( +7 / -1 )

Just ignore them. Do an opinion poll of all the citizens of Korea. I am sure all will agree that the islands belong rightfully to South Korea. And, the same can be done and said for the Diaoyu Islands that Japan nationalized. Perhaps the Russians should immediately also announce their ownership of the Kurile Islands before Japan claims them for itself.

-7 ( +0 / -7 )

*sfjp330

Up until 1870's, Japan didn't know Dokdo existed *

Really? There is a Japanese map which was made in 1768 that shows Takeshima.

According to Korean document called (Hachidousouzu) in the 16th century, there was Dokto which was located to the West of Ulleungdo Island on the map.Then sometime in 20th century, the same island was removed to the East side of Ulleungdo Island on their map that is completely opposite side to match with the location of Takeshima that Korea calls as if it were Dokto. I wonder if Korean kids have been taught this fact.

There are many Japanese know this fact but Japan has never made any noise to Korean text books. So Japan obtains the right to do this kind of domestic opinion poll anytime and it is none of Korean business.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

louis tanAug. 04, 2013 - 01:27AM JST Just ignore them. Do an opinion poll of all the citizens of Korea. I am sure all will agree that the islands belong >rightfully to South Korea.

They are illegally occupied and the U.S. has said so. South Korea has stolen these islands. As for Korean opinion polls they also believe they brought civilization to China 5000 years ago.

And, the same can be done and said for the Diaoyu Islands that Japan nationalized.

As if "nationalized" is an excuse for Chinese land grabbing. What difference did it make to China if 3 of the islands were owned by Japanese citizens or the Japanese government? One of the five islands has always been owned by the Japanese government. China is attempting to steal these islands.

Perhaps the Russians should immediately also announce their ownership of the Kurile Islands before Japan claims >them for itself

The SOUTHERN Kuriles are considered Japanese Territory under Russian occupation by the United States, United Kingdom and the European Parliament. The Soviets STOLE these islands AFTER Japan surrendered.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Poll finds 6 out of 10 Russians say Kurile islands belong to Russia..... and no one in Japan cares? I dont think so.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

OssanAmericaAug. 03, 2013 - 08:06AM JST No that is not true, "MATSUE, SHIMANE PREF. – The Shimane Prefectural Government said Thursday that it has confirmed a historic first: the existence of two rough drafts of maps of Japan from the 18th century that serve as the basis of Japan’s claim to the South Korea-held Takeshima islets in the Sea of Japan. The two maps, both made in the 1760s, reinforce Japan’s claim that the South Korean-administered islands are historically Japanese, the prefectural government said. South Korea seized the islets after the war, and calls the territory Dokdo" .

The "Shimane notice" is completely ineffective as any legal notice. You notice that this alleged notice was issued by a local government, not by the central government of Japan. Shimane Prefecture of 1905 incorporated Dokdo into the Japanese territory because it was not owned by anyone at that time. Japan alleges that this single copy of a secret document serves as a "notice." Surely, the Japanese government could not possibly be proposing that every foreign government should be collecting all provincial newspapers of Japan, written in Japanese, and analyze them every single day.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Please calm down and look at this issue objectively.

The poll was conducted by the Tokyo Government, not from a private entity like a newspaper or TV station. That's the main reason why Korea was protesting it.

Japan would also protest if the Chinese government conduct the same poll with regard to Okinawa.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Chamkun Aug. 04, 2013 - 01:43AM JST Really? There is a Japanese map which was made in 1768 that shows Takeshima.

You must be referring to Ulleugdo. The Japanese word "Takeshima," means a "bamboo island." This word made sense when it originally meant Ulleungdo before 1900 because there are many bamboos and trees in Ulleungdo. However, there are absolutely no bamboos or trees in Dokdo. This island had also been previously known to Japan as Matsushima, and Japan repeatedly disowned it because Japan recognized this island as a Korean island.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

The Korea Times and the Northeast Asian History Foundation today announcd the 12 winners of the 2013 International Dokdo Essay Contest.

The given topic of their essays was Ten Truths about Dokdo — Not Known in Japan...

The winners received cash awards.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Second of all, I do not really understand why they think it is provocation of Japan to ROK. No country cannot interfere to Japanese internal administration.

And what was the motivation of Japanese officials travelling the country and contacting multiple Japanese citizens in an official capacity.

Clearly trying to promote and keep the issue alive?

What if German officials were to criss cross Deutschland asking their citizens if Prussia should be returned? Should Poland consider this to be provocation?

It is unlikely that Japan will be able to reconqure these islands with a short prefecture notice this time. Why not drop the issue and encourage cooperation with SKorea to help balance out China in the region? Or better yet learn to live along these two powers in peace?

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

sfjp330Aug. 04, 2013 - 03:00AM JST The "Shimane notice" is completely ineffective as any legal notice. You notice that this alleged notice was issued by a >local government, not by the central government of Japan

Talk to us about "legal notices" when South Korea agrees to settle this dispute before the International Court of Justice as Japan has requested 3 times and South Korea continues to refuse. Naturally no thief wants to go before a court.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

If you had the choice of going to court and potentially losing your island or not going and keeping it for sure, which would you choose?

When will diaoyu go to court?

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

of course they would protest, what a joke country.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

This issue, scholars have to do research of old books of both countries. It is not easy. Many books since about 15th century. Old old maps, too. Some people know that. So, only 60 %. People hate to think what Japanese people were. Korean and Chinese people mixed mixed with native people, Mixed culture, too/

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

David ElsonAug. 04, 2013 - 05:34AM JST If you had the choice of going to court and potentially losing your island or not going and keeping it for sure, which >would you choose?

Why would I potentially lose if I am sure of my ownership as much as South Korea is of Takeshima?

When will diaoyu go to court?

As soon as China becomes a civilized country and asks to settle the Senkaku claim with Japan at the ICJ. It's up to the one with the claim to do so.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

So what does natto say about the Japanese mentality?

Or chogochugang about the Korean?

A rather simplistic argument.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

kickboardAug. 03, 2013 - 09:09AM JST

So koreans are angry because someone conducted a poll or are they angry at the fact that some Japanese have an opinion that differs from their own?"

Both. And if it was not those things, they would find something else to be angry about. Not sure why, but I surmise being angry at Japan and protesting everything under the sun (oops, don't mention the sun, it brings bad memories of the rising sun flag and that would warrant another protest) scores political points at home. The Korean economy is in trouble and Park needs an "outside enemy," Japan is always a convenient whipping boy to blame for all the troubles in Korea.

6 ( +6 / -0 )

How about sorting out your northern neighbour issue rather than constantly whining about Japan?

8 ( +8 / -0 )

@David Elson

It is only the Koreans who has their government's education department to force 10 hours a year of teaching to all Korean children that Takeshima is Korea's land. Doesn't that make you think something is wrong?

5 ( +6 / -1 )

When their northern brothers come across the border stealing everything that is and isn't nailed down guess who they will come crying to for help and money to repair the damages?

Yep, they will come to Japan asking for money, but as always they will complain and accuse Japan of something after they get the money.

When this next incursion happens, and it will I hope that Japan makes demands for the money they will provide rather than just giving it away.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

The SOUTHERN Kuriles are considered Japanese Territory under Russian occupation by the United States, United Kingdom and the European Parliament.

Oh, really? ROFL. We don't care about biased opinion of Uncle Sam and his loyal puppets from UK.

The Soviets STOLE these islands AFTER Japan surrendered.

Nice example of American historical education, huh! For your information, during Kuril offensive operation Soviets stormed Kuril islands and South Sakhalin. Imperial Kwantung Army in Manchuria (and Kuril garrison, in particular ) refused to surrender and fought back. The total amount of combatants in Kuril garrison was about 80 000 men. This was slightly more than 20 000 in Iwo Jima, right? Speaking about "stealing islands" Also I have to tell you that storming concrete-enforced forts, located on isles of Kuril Chain, filled by Japanese soldiers was a bit harder task than, say firebombings of Japanese cities let alone dropping of combat nuclear devices on Japanese women and children in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

technosphereAug. 04, 2013 - 06:00PM JST "The SOUTHERN Kuriles are considered Japanese Territory under Russian occupation by the United States, United Kingdom and the European Parliament. Oh, really? ROFL. We don't care about biased opinion of Uncle Sam and his loyal puppets from UK.

You, the Chinese PLA and Al Qaida..

The Soviets STOLE these islands AFTER Japan surrendered.

Nice example of American historical education, huh!

"It was after Japan accepted the Potsdam Declaration on August 14, 1945, and announced the termination of the war on August 15, 1945, that the Soviet Union started the Invasion of the Kuril Islands, which took place between August 18 and September 3, expelling the Japanese inhabitants two years later."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuril_Islands_dispute

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

You, the Chinese PLA and Al Qaida..

You forgot to add some countries of Eastern Europe and Latin America in your list. As for Al Queda, your government openly supports them by backing rebels in Syria.

"It was after Japan accepted the Potsdam Declaration on August 14, 1945, and announced the termination of the war on August 15, 1945, that the Soviet Union started the Invasion of the Kuril Islands, which took place between August 18 and September 3, expelling the Japanese inhabitants two years later."

As I said above, Imperial Kwantung Army refused to listen the Emperor's order and surrender. They continued to fight back. That's why South Sakhalin and South Kurils were a legal military prize for Soviet side.If America, the UK or EU dislike it, this is just their problem. Plain and simple. By the way, the surrender of the Empire of Japan took place on September 2, 1945.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

technosphereAug. 04, 2013 - 09:42PM JST

"It was after Japan accepted the Potsdam Declaration on August 14, 1945, and announced the termination of the war on August 15, 1945, that the Soviet Union started the Invasion of the Kuril Islands, which took place between August 18 and September 3, expelling the Japanese inhabitants two years later."

As I said above, Imperial Kwantung Army refused to listen the Emperor's order and surrender. They continued to fight >back. That's why South Sakhalin and South Kurils were a legal military prize for Soviet side.

They were fighting back because the Soviet Red Army did not halt it's offensive after Japan's declaration as did the other Allied powers.

If America, the UK or EU dislike it, this is just their problem. Plain and simple.

No it is a Russo-Japanese problem as it has continued to be a point of discussion between the two nations.

By the way, the surrender of the Empire of Japan took place on September 2, 1945.

Yes the formal signing took place on September 2nd. But Japan declared acceptance of the Potsdam Agreement on August 15th. What the USSR did was the equivalent of seeing a criminal surrendering, dropping his weapon and being taken into custody, and then shooting him on the grounds that he hasn't been officially booked down at the station yet.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Yes the formal signing took place on September 2nd. But Japan declared acceptance of the Potsdam Agreement on August 15th. What the USSR did was the equivalent of seeing a criminal surrendering, dropping his weapon and being taken into custody, and then shooting him on the grounds that he hasn't been officially booked down at the station yet.

Joseph Stalin promised to Allies to declare war to Japan withing 3 months since the capitulation of NAZI Germany. It was his obligation. So, the Soviet side began offensive operations in August. And "acceptance of the Potsdam Agreement" is not a same as unconditional surrender. And fighting an Imperial Kwantung Army was not a same as "shooting down an unarmed criminal". Soldiers and officers of Imperial Army were fighting back bravely. It was a rather fair fight "Army Vs Army" till a victory of only one side. As a result, China and North Korea were liberated. Soviets regained territories which were lost during Russo-Japanese War 1904-1905. From Russian point of view, there is neither territorial problem, nor reasons for a dispute anymore. Some Japanese "ultras" demand to return South Kurils. But some Chinese "ultras" also claim that "Siberia and Russian Far East are historical parts of China". So what?

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

technosphere

Soviets regained territories which were lost during Russo-Japanese War 1904-1905.

Auh no since the Northern territories were established as Japanese territory through The Treaty of Shimoda of 1855.

The Treaty of Saint Petersburg (1875) would attribute all the chain of the Kurils to Japan, while Russia obtained full recognition of its possession of Sakhalin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Shimoda

4 ( +4 / -0 )

technosphereAug. 05, 2013 - 12:37AM JST Joseph Stalin promised to Allies to declare war to Japan withing 3 months since the capitulation of NAZI Germany. It >was his obligation. So, the Soviet side began offensive operations in August.

And they should have ceased ion August 15th. There should have been no invasion of the Southern Kuriles from August 18th through September. Why do you think ther Allied powers think the USSR :stole" them?

And "acceptance of the Potsdam Agreement" is not a same as unconditional surrender

Yes it is.

End of discussion since the MOD is going to start deleting as off topic. Argue with yourself if you want.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

Whine, whine, whine. There has to be other things to do in Korea other than watch Japan's every move. 3x Japan submitted the Dokdo issue for resolution to international court. Korea ignored them 3x. It'll the most logical thing to do to finally prove that Dokdo is truly theirs. But they do not want it. They want to protest in every way possible, in the most destructive way there is. In the meantime, they have Dokdo already, so what else do they want? Christmas in Dokdo? They can have that too, don't they know that?

4 ( +6 / -2 )

OssanAmerica Aug. 04, 2013 - 05:13AM JST Talk to us about "legal notices" when South Korea agrees to settle this dispute before the International Court of Justice as Japan has requested 3 times and South Korea continues to refuse. Naturally no thief wants to go before a court.

Even if Korea and Japan went to ICJ, I doubt Korean or Japanese government would follow an ICJ ruling that was not in their favor. Nobody is going to enforce the ruling. You have to remember that public opinions is very important in Korea and Japan, and it is really hard to believe that either government would respect a ruling on the sovereignty of Dokdo that would go against popular national opinion.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

sfjp330Aug. 06, 2013 - 05:56AM JST "OssanAmerica Aug. 04, 2013 - 05:13AM JST Talk to us about "legal notices" when South Korea agrees to settle this dispute before the International Court of Justice as Japan has requested 3 times and South Korea continues to refuse. Naturally no thief wants to go before a court." Even if Korea and Japan went to ICJ, I doubt Korean or Japanese government would follow an ICJ ruling that was not >in their favor.

"Judgments delivered by the Court (or by one of its Chambers) in disputes between States are binding upon the parties concerned. Article 94 of the United Nations Charter lays down that "each Member of the United Nations undertakes to comply with the decision of [the Court] in any case to which it is a party". Judgments are final and without appeal. If either of the parties challenges their scope or meaning, it has the option to request an interpretation. In the event of the discovery of a fact hitherto unknown to the Court which might be a decisive factor, either party may apply for revision of the judgment. As regards advisory opinions, it is usually for the United Nations organs and specialized agencies requesting them to give effect to them or not by whatever means are appropriate for them."

http://www.icj-cij.org/information/index.php?p1=7&p2=2

0 ( +3 / -3 )

sfjp330

Even if Korea and Japan went to ICJ, I doubt Korean or Japanese government would follow an ICJ ruling that was not in their favor. Nobody is going to enforce the ruling. You have to remember that public opinions is very important in Korea and Japan, and it is really hard to believe that either government would respect a ruling on the sovereignty of Dokdo that would go against popular national opinion.

Basically this is a stall tactics by the Koreans since it will be a damaging blow towards the Korean government which had been indoctrinating their people about the legitimacy of their claim to Takeshima for the past half century that will be proven wrong if and when ICJ rules against Korea's claim. The public morale and trust towards their government would be crushed if this is to happen in which the Korean government would do anything and everything to prevent.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

@SamuraiBlue/OssanAmerica

Only reason why Jpn Gov't wants to go to the ICJ for this issue is because ICJ currently has a JAPANESE JUDGE, who is a NATIONALIST.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

John Master

That is just a propaganda fed to the Korean public so they will not consider ICJ option since Korea can appoint an ad hoc judge of their own choosing to sit in.

Judges ad hoc

Under Article 31, paragraphs 2 and 3, of the Statute of the Court, a State party to a case before the International Court of Justice which does not have a judge of its nationality on the Bench may choose a person to sit as judge ad hoc in that specific case under the conditions laid down in Articles 35 to 37 of the Rules of Court. Before taking up his/her duties, a judge ad hoc is required to make the same solemn declaration as an elected Member of the Court. He/she does not necessarily have to have (and often does not have) the nationality of the designating State.

http://www.icj-cij.org/court/index.php?p1=1&p2=5

Basically the Korean government knows that they don't have a limb to stand on in international court so they want to evade it no matter what and will do everything including indoctrinating their own people not to consider that option.

In other words the Korean government is trying to maintain a lie with another lie. I really do not understand why any logical Korean will speak out to this whole charade.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

^ A very interesting and useful post SamuraiBlue. If I'm reading correctly it seems that the ROK would have the right to sit a judge of their choosing on the panel. Surely anyone who felt they had a legitimate case would avail themselves of this process.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

John MasterAug. 06, 2013 - 11:31PM JST @SamuraiBlue/OssanAmerica Only reason why Jpn Gov't wants to go to the ICJ for this issue is because ICJ currently has a JAPANESE JUDGE, >who is a NATIONALIST.

Thank you for an utterly irrelevant comment. And your statement that as judge on who sits on the ICJ bench is a "nationalist" is extremely unlikely at best and severely crass at worst. But if the fact that one of the 16 judges on the ICJ bench is Japanese bothers you, perhaps you will be consoled in knowing that the ICJ is an arm of the UN currently headed by a South Korean. But I'm not Neanderthal enough to suggest that he is a "nationalist".

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

John MasterAug. 06, 2013 - 11:31PM JST @SamuraiBlue/OssanAmerica Only reason why Jpn Gov't wants to go to the ICJ for this issue is because ICJ currently has a JAPANESE JUDGE, >who is a NATIONALIST.

Thank you for an utterly irrelevant comment. And your statement that as judge on who sits on the ICJ bench is a "nationalist" is extremely unlikely at best and severely crass at worst. But if the fact that one of the 16 judges on the ICJ bench is Japanese bothers you, perhaps you will be consoled in knowing that the ICJ is an arm of the UN currently headed by a South Korean. But I'm not Neanderthal enough to suggest that he is a "nationalist".

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/wordpress/wp-content/images/Kazuo-Hori-Dokdo.pdf

This work by a JAPANESE scholar shows how Japan tried to add Takeshima territory as theirs in 20th century(secretly?).

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

John Master

So? Unlike ROK, Japan values personal value and freedom of speech. I believe in ROK anyone doing a similar stun would be ostracized.

One more thing Professor Hori Kazuo is an economist not a historian.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Japan did not discover an island that Koreans on Ulungdo have been staring at and fishing at for thousands of years in 1905. Let's please move on.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Japan did not discover an island that Koreans on Ulungdo have been staring at and fishing at for thousands of years in 1905. Let's please move on.

Joseon "empty island" policy. There is a reason why Korea doesn't have ANY maps showing Takeshima prior to Japan's incorporation.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Surveying on whether a land of the neighboring country belongs to them or not is certainly provocative. Japan stole Dokdo during the course of imperialism in 1905 and had to return to Korea when Japan lost the war. It’s so simply, but now Japan shamelessly claims the land it took by greed.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

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