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S Korean envoy to Japan seeks 'comprehensive' fix to wartime issues

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I feel bad for Japan. They have the most annoying neighbor.

30 ( +37 / -7 )

This already happened on paper in 1965 and 2015. It seems to me the RoK would accept these agreements if Japan acted in accordance with its words instead of politicians continuing to visit Yasukuni and textbooks painting Japan as the victim in WWII.

It worked for Germany because it showed contrition along with expressing it in writing.

-29 ( +7 / -36 )

@Chip Star

I wouldn't count on SK accepting this agreement, if it happens, in finality. Past actions demonstrate that they have no plan and integrity to honor what they or past administration signed. If they find another reason to deviate from what they agreed, they would do so without a thought. Japan is to blame for everything, that's their motto. You cant blame Japan for finally having enough of SK.

31 ( +35 / -4 )

Princess: I completely understand what you are saying, but can't fully agree given Japan doesn't act in accordance with the spirit of these agreement. Visits to Yasukuni, etc.

Its akin to a spousal abuser that apologizes one day and the next starts beating in their spouse again.

-28 ( +6 / -34 )

Nam Gwan Pyo's remarks during a speech in Tokyo appear to throw support behind a proposed bill to create a fund to compensate both wartime labor victims and so-called comfort women who were forced into Japanese military brothels, with contributions from the South Korean and Japanese governments as well as companies and the public.

The bill being prepared by South Korea's parliamentary speaker, Moon Hee Sang, would aim to disburse 300 billion won ($255 million) to 1,500 victims, South Korean media reported.

It would use 6 billion won left over from a Japan-funded foundation set up to support former comfort women that South Korean President Moon Jae In's administration decided to dissolve in July.

Nam said that while Seoul will continue to honor a 1965 bilateral agreement that was purported to settle issues of wartime compensation, such human rights issues were not sufficiently addressed when the accord was struck.

"Our governments should seek a solution together," he said.

What a joke. What good is any agreement when the South Korean government and their blind anti-Japan supporters around the world will deny it ever happened, or that somehow it wasn't 'sincere' since no Japanese individual apologized with tears in eyes and on bended knees groveling for forgiveness. Japan is the one that agreed to compensate and apologize, South Koreans are the ones dissolving such agreements and resolutions because it gives them a sense of purpose to keep the ignorance alive for future generations.

28 ( +32 / -4 )

J-politicians visiting Yasukuni, or making comments indiviually (as opposed to official government positions) do not in any way negate the terms or validity of the 1965 Treaty or the 2015 Comfort Women Agreement, any more than the continuous anti-Japan position, comments and activities of South Korea. The Japanese do not see Yasukuni as a symbol of war idolatry or a shrine dedicated specifically to the 14 Class-A War Criminals as South Korea does, but rather a place to pray for all the war dead from the late 1800s onwards; some 2.46 million. For this reason, clearly no Japanese will ever accept a foreign interpretation of one of their shrines (which from their point of view is incorrect) as a reason to not pay tribute there.

Foreign visitors, post WWII to the Yasukuni Shrine include US Navy Rear Admiral Daniel Smith on April 9, 1969, and USMC Lt. General Wallace Gregson (the 3rd Marine Division's commanding general) visited on April 26, 2001. In addition a number of current and former Presidents and leaders from several other countries have also visited. These people would obviously not have visited Yasukuni Shrine if it were a place to worship war and war criminals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_surrounding_Yasukuni_Shrine

The fact is that neither South Korea's continued anti-Japan education, agenda and propaganda, or J-politicians visiting the Yasukuni Shrine, or making individual comments, violate any of the terms of the 1965 Treaty or the 2015 Comfort Women Agreement. None of this gives justification to either country to negate a previously negotiated agreement. This is a matter of International Law and directly affects the credibility of a sovereign nation in it's relations with the rest of the world.

For that reason, any efforts to rebuild South Korea-Japan relations, both diplomatic and economic, must be carried out on the basis of the signed Agreements. Rather than working backwards to dispute the issues those Agreements were intended to put to rest. South Korea's current proposal above is just that.

27 ( +32 / -5 )

I’ve posted this before, will post again. UNCHR experts sided with Korea and stated that the 1965 treaty did not cover inhumane acts. Saying otherwise is another one of Abe’s biggest lies.

https://www.ilo.org/dyn/normlex/en/f?p=NORMLEXPUB:13100:0::NO::P13100_COMMENT_ID:2218404

-23 ( +6 / -29 )

Also, a group of U.N. human rights experts said the 2015 agreement was flawed and asked Japan to address the issues.

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=17209&LangID=E

-24 ( +5 / -29 )

Tom Doley, you're a star!

-21 ( +5 / -26 )

Those reports by Coomaraswamy or McDougall are simply garbage criticized severely by professional historians including the one who’ s been one of core scholars siding with SK’s main narratives.

 

As far as 1965 treaty is concerned, one should notice those special reports were presented in late 90’s *when detailed minutes or dialogue for negotiation process were not yet fully disclosed and investigated. Hence those reporters had no idea what were discussed during such 14 years of negotiation process, which is obvious seen from the fact they read only the texts of the treaty itself.

 

*Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties Art31&32 clarify not only how Treaty is worded but also all the supporting documents( agreed minutes, dialogue records) are to be referred to in case of the dispute.

As a matter of fact, Korean delegates did know the existence of comfort women, and did refer to comfort women and the issues related to comfort women in 2nd negotiation held in 1953.  THEY KNEW WHAT CW DOES.

 

Why not. They had their own comfort women called also "Ianfu" in Korean, serving for themselves and UN/US soldiers already while such negotiation process took place.

 

UNCHR can make no mistakes with possible false charge, which is the reason they only recommend. If SK seeks for absolute judgement by Int’l communities, it should sit at the table for arbitration or ICJ as stipulated clearly in the treaty.

 

You cannot keep running away from such judgement and keep referring to so called UN committees recommendations dated long time ago that lack significant volume of newly found information.

23 ( +28 / -5 )

S. Korea has a history of bullying Japan on this issue. Time and again agreements are broken, temporary, or not enough after 80 years so they want a new agreement.

If Koreans didn't keep their word in 1965 or in 2015 what makes you think they will feel different in 2025 or 2050 a new generation of Koreans can say its not good enough what you did in the past wasn't enough!

Korean can say the same argument in the future like they are right now.

Standing up to Korea not paying a dime, cent more is the way forward and the way to stop this for good.

27 ( +32 / -5 )

If both Koreas reunite one day guess what... Japan you need to pay us again. We are one country again and our new government represents the whole of Korea. Or

You paid S. Korea but you never paid for North Korea force labor or comfort women.

Open the wallet Japan.

23 ( +27 / -4 )

Not a single yen more n when SK people can protest anti Japan rallies officially n boycot japanese goods openly Japanese politician can visit Yasukuni or any other Kunis. N please leave Germany UN or UNHCR out of fued between SK n Japan just grow up in own up ur mistakes SK don't drag ther international bodies or countries in ur fued as the time of SK lies r officially over

21 ( +26 / -5 )

@OssanJapan

J-politicians visiting Yasukuni, or making comments indiviually

Which is very offensive to the world, same as German politicians visiting the bunker where Hitler commited suicide and paying respect.

The Japanese do not see Yasukuni as a symbol of war idolatry or a shrine dedicated specifically to the 14 Class-A War Criminals as South Korea does

The shrine room housing those 14 A-class war-criminals is where Japan's politicians head straight to, not the general area of the shrine. The intent to deny the outcome of the Tokyo Trial is very clear.

-22 ( +5 / -27 )

@alexbecu

i was thinking exactly the same thing.

whats to stop future Korean governments from doing the same - insisting that the 2020 agreement doesn’t address certain issues & demanding Japan pay more money !?

17 ( +20 / -3 )

As this time SK lost face n used up all the pensioners money so they r begging money as usual to put back the pensioners money

15 ( +19 / -4 )

N the point here is again SK n Japan not Germany US Europe America Asia or Australia it's only What SK n Japan did does or will do

9 ( +14 / -5 )

Those reports by Coomaraswamy or McDougall are simply garbage criticized severely by professional historians including the one who’ s been one of core scholars siding with SK’s main narratives. 

Gees, you’re still harping on about the Japanese historians as if they can objectively interpret international treaties, and as if it carries more weight than INDEPENDENT UN experts.

As far as 1965 treaty is concerned, one should notice those special reports were presented in late 90’s *when detailed minutes or dialogue for negotiation process were not yet fully disclosed and investigated. Hence those reporters had no idea what were discussed during such 14 years of negotiation process, which is obvious seen from the fact they read only the texts of the treaty itself.

**Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties Art31&32 clarify not only how Treaty is worded but also all the supporting documents( agreed minutes, dialogue records) are to be referred to in case of the dispute***

If you have read the minutes, you will also know that Japan kept denying any illegal activities. Hence, they insisted the naming of the funds be called “economic cooperation” fund, and not include the word “compensation”.

Further, if you want to bring up the Vienna Convention, Article 53 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties: “A treaty is void if, at the time of its conclusion, it conflicts with a peremptory norm of general international law.”

Peremptory norm bans slavery which includes sexual slavery, slave labor, wartime labor, etc. (aka. comfort women, forced laborers). These basic violation of human rights cannot be waived by any treaty, and applies to all retroactive treaties.

As a matter of fact, Korean delegates did know the existence of comfort women, and did refer to comfort women and the issues related to comfort women in 2nd negotiation held in 1953. THEY KNEW WHAT CW DOES.

Japan denied all atrocities in the negotiations means that Japan concealed the truth as per the UN report. It’s got nothing to do with what the Koreans knew.

 UNCHR can make no mistakes with possible false charge, which is the reason they only recommend. If SK seeks for absolute judgement by Int’l communities, it should sit at the table for arbitration or ICJ as stipulated clearly in the treaty. 

 You cannot keep running away from such judgement and keep referring to so called UN committees recommendations dated long time ago that lack significant volume of newly found information.

The truth is previous governments of Japan have all said that individual’s right to claim have not been extinguished. Only Abe has backflipped on this. Further, 100 Japanese lawyers issued a joint statement that they agree with ruling by South Korea’s Supreme Court ruling.

This is one of the biggest lies propagated by Abe, and all his gullible sheep are just blindly following it.

END OF STORY.

-17 ( +4 / -21 )

If Korea cannot respect agreements between the two nations, what is the point of making another? The best choice for Japan is to stay away from the country as far away as possible.

13 ( +17 / -4 )

Why does WW2 keep coming back to haunt Japan?

Simple. Because it was never fully resolved in the first place.

As one eminent professor said to me many years ago "nothing is resolved, if it is not resolved properly".

In certain parts of Japan there have always been rumours of mass graves, of Koreans (and others), victims of atrocities are buried. Parents even used to tell their children not to play on certain area's. Address this.

-17 ( +4 / -21 )

Yup rumours exactly n rumours guess what rumours so it doesn't represent reality. Time for SK extolling money from Japan in the name of WW II is officially over so live in reality not rumours

12 ( +15 / -3 )

How come force labour n comfort W victims r in their 70s n WW II ended almost 80 years ago that's makes rumours n lies = SK

12 ( +15 / -3 )

Yup rumours exactly n rumours guess what rumours so it doesn't represent reality. Time for SK extolling money from Japan in the name of WW II is officially over so live in reality not rumours

Yes, rumour's are rumour's. I find that the best way to deal with persistent rumours which don't go away no matter how much that you ignore it, is to disprove it. Then we have reality.

-12 ( +4 / -16 )

Ex_ResToday  03:03 pm JST

Why does WW2 keep coming back to haunt Japan?

Simple. Because it was never fully resolved in the first place.

No it's been resolved with all nations except Russia where a treaty has yet to be signed. Funny how that nations that fought Imperial Japan in WWII, the US, UK, Australia, Canada are strategic allies of Japan, even carrying out joint military exercises. Even Taiwan, which is the ROC that Japan invaded 1930s has no issues. Yet South Korea which was art of the Empire of Japan and the PRC which did not exist until 1948, seem to have WWII issues with Japan.

11 ( +15 / -4 )

Yes, rumour's are rumour's. I find that the best way to deal with persistent rumours which don't go away no matter how much that you ignore it, is to disprove it. Then we have reality.

What would be the best to way to prove what did not happen did not happen. Dig up all the lands to search for the graves?

12 ( +16 / -4 )

Japan government should stay away from South Korea ‘ current president & his administrations who have played too much.

8 ( +10 / -2 )

Gees, you’re still harping on about the Japanese historians as if they can objectively interpret international treaties, and as if it carries more weight than INDEPENDENT UN experts.

 

Sure, professional historians including the one who’s been siding with main Korean narratives, criticizing those reports, do carry more weight in historical fact-finding and fact checking than those INDEPENDENT UN so-called experts working on INDIVIDUAL capacity.

Without such base knowledge for historical finding & checking, such legal expertise for reading only texts of the treaty means nothing. Those brave 6 Korean scholars and authors of “ Anti-Japan tribalism” presented primary source to deny all those fake Korean narratives, which are what those rapporteurs employed at UN. These brave 6 are even calling for public debates to prove themselves but NONE including NGOs like Chong Dae Hyup, other civic groups who kept tossing about ignorant so-called Rapporteurs, has challenged back.

No surprise. They cannot as they know its all fake.

 Further, if you want to bring up the Vienna Convention, Article 53 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties: “A treaty is void if, at the time of its conclusion, it conflicts with a peremptory norm of general international law.”

Peremptory norm bans slavery which includes sexual slavery, slave labor, wartime labor, etc. (aka. comfort women, forced laborers). These basic violation of human rights cannot be waived by any treaty, and applies to all retroactive treaties.

     

Article 53 is a halfway clause. There’s no such absolute definition of Jus Cogens. Besides, 1965 treaty was not concluded to trigger and enable those halfway-defined Jus Cogens phenomenon like genocide, slavery to happen. It is for the peace and for normalizing the diplomatic relationships. You are completely misunderstanding the clause by applying it backwards.

 

So, by resorting to Jus Cogens, and if believe 1965 Treaty should have been null and void from the beginning, all SK government and its top court had to do was to declare as such and scrapped it all, which was not the case. Stop resorting always to meaningless argument which the very party of the treaty did not chose to do so.

 

You very links said

 

Final conclusions on victims of wartime sexual slavery

This Committee reiterates that it has no mandate to rule on the legal effect of bilateral and multilateral international treaties and is therefore unable and does not finally pronounce on that legal issue.

 

Final conclusions on wartime industrial forced labour

As with the victims of wartime sexual slavery, the Committee indicates that it has no mandate to rule on the legal effect of bilateral and multilateral international treaties.

 

And yet, you keep posting these links as if legal interpretation on 1965 treaty has been already fixed unanimously by Int’l community.

7 ( +11 / -4 )

East Asia ancient but poor until recently

only economy only single country

looking forward to the African century, if there is enough time

1 ( +2 / -1 )

What would be the best to way to prove what did not happen did not happen. Dig up all the lands to search for the graves?

Well, there is modern technology now (ground scan). If it shows negatively, then rumours are false.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

Tom Doley

Also, a group of U.N. human rights experts said the 2015 agreement was flawed and asked Japan to address the issues.

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=17209&LangID=E

Lol, I read it. It is mainly about discrimination against women generally an the "experts" said, it might "fall short of the demands of the survivors". Of course! For their demands it will never be enough! Remember one saying once that at least the Japanese emperor had to kneel down before her, kissing her feet and beg for forgiveness? Right on! The article also states that "the South Korean Government agreed to consider the removal of a statue commemorating the ‘comfort women’ built in front of Japan’s embassy in Seoul. Both governments agreed to refrain from accusing or criticizing each other in the international community on this issue. " Never seen anything happening into that direction. For those arguing the text reads "consider", in diplomatic terms it means "will do". The Japanese part was fullfilled as I can recall. That those "experts" are also "deeply concerned" about removing a statue - without accepting its real purpose, rather playing it down - shows that they are defenitely either not independant or have no knowledge of what they are talking about. I think the latter was proven already by others above.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

As Final conclusion in your link repeated twice, the committee has no mandate to rule on legal effect of bilateral treaties, can make no mistakes by making wrong-pronounce on that legal issues. Of course it cannot. Bilateral treaties always have the other party. When the other party objects to unilateral interpretation, it SHOULD GO TO arbitration as clearly stipulated in that treaty.

There's no such convenient arrangements to employ who said what logic and keep the body but cook it your own way and force the other to eat up.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Rumours r rumors won't b reality with exception to SK only can us the comfort fund to do ground scan the age of lies n vankers r long long gone

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Japan should learn from what West German Chancellor Willy Brandt has knees in 1970 to ask for forgiveness live in front of camera! That action was no humiliation but praised by around the world! This is what the Japanese politicians refuse to learn! For japan this is gainful not losing face!

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

South Korea proposes the need for a "comprehensive" fix. OK, then the first return the money from the previous agreements. That would seem like a logical first step.

It seems, however, that SK is trying to have it's cake, eat it too, and come back for seconds.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Again it Japan n SK not Germany Europe America Asia or Australia n Germany didn't develop the countries it invaded where as Japan never invaded SK bt developed it technologically financially n lastly stop involving Germany as its has got nothing to between SK Japan fued

3 ( +4 / -1 )

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