Former South Korean comfort woman Lee Yong-soo in a wheelchair leaves the Seoul Central District Court in Seoul, South Korea, on Wednesday. Photo: AP/Ahn Young-joon
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Seoul court rejects wartime sex slaves' suit against Japan

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Seoulless

-23 ( +10 / -33 )

Somebody got paid off...not the victims.

-16 ( +15 / -31 )

The Seoul court ruled that the Japanese government should be exempt from civil jurisdiction under the principles of international law, according to South Korea's Yonhap news agency.

Finally, a bit of sanity.

23 ( +35 / -12 )

Its far from over. Wait for all the appeals, both in Seoul and the ICJ. It will drag on for many, many years.

Moon will see to it for political reasons that the courts are seen to punish Japan.

14 ( +23 / -9 )

Finally, a rational decision by South Korean court, no less.

Sad to see these woman continued to be used as pawns by the anti-Japan brigade. Japan in fact has TWICE offered compensation and apologies on the official record, and the last one from 2015 was voided by Moon on a whim. Something the world media tends to ignore or minimize just so that it fits their narrative that 'evil Japanese' continue to 'deny' past atrocities. The whereabouts of the money from that 2015 fund is unknown, and one South Korean activist actually used some of that for her own personal gain which was absolutely despicable but true to the nature of these devious people.

25 ( +35 / -10 )

Terrible. But, we know the truth and what happen.

-14 ( +8 / -22 )

apologies on the official record

The issue with Japanese apologies on this issue is the Japanese don’t back up their apologies with actions. In fact, the Japanese demonstrate with actions that the apologies were hollow, or tatemae, if that makes you happier.

Japan should face its past head on like the Germans have instead of constantly trying to rewrite history. The US is partially responsible for Japan constantly trying to dodge its responsibility for the rape of Asia because the US allowed a lot of the wartime leaders of Japan to escape unpunished; they were even allowed back into government. A great example of this is Shinzo Abe’s grandfather who was known as the Showa Monster.

-15 ( +15 / -30 )

And if these women are hurting why do they accept money as compensation? Why does Japanese moeny make it all better? Isn't that ironic?

11 ( +19 / -8 )

It is essential these frail pensioners plight, is accepted, fully recognized.

Also a step forward to review the Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea, signed June 22, 1965.

1965?, change happens, so change must reflect current political circumstance.

Could this be a reset to SK/JP relations, a more positive, if circumspect view to historic grievances.

Takes two to politically tango.

-8 ( +4 / -12 )

Finally some sanity....

Japan has said sorry so many times, just google it please... Japan has paid the government TWICE and the Korean government either, used the money for projects to "better the lives" not give it to the actual victims (1965) or broke a signed agreement and tried to return money (2015) that stated "agreed to finally and irreversibly settle the issue of "comfort women""....

23 ( +30 / -7 )

The victims need to sue the Korean government, they are the ones not paying the victims...

24 ( +30 / -6 )

Okay, so the Korean court system is independent from the Korean government. Pity you can't say the same about the Japanese judicial system.

On a more serious note, these poor ladies. Can't imagine how much they are suffering now, probably more so when they were raped by the JIA.

-18 ( +7 / -25 )

P. SmithToday  01:26 pm JST

apologies on the official record

The issue with Japanese apologies on this issue is the Japanese don’t back up their apologies with actions. In fact, the Japanese demonstrate with actions that the apologies were hollow, or tatemae, if that makes you happier.

Japan should face its past head on like the Germans have instead of constantly trying to rewrite history. The US is partially responsible for Japan constantly trying to dodge its responsibility for the rape of Asia because the US allowed a lot of the wartime leaders of Japan to escape unpunished; they were even allowed back into government. A great example of this is Shinzo Abe’s grandfather who was known as the Showa Monster.

Excellent post,a good reminder about the facts of history.

-16 ( +7 / -23 )

This is not surprising at all, as legal rulings can differ among judges. The Supreme court of Korea will eventually rule both cases. Bring it to the ICJ is the best way, but Japan never will: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2021/01/13/national/international-court-justice-comfort-women/

-16 ( +5 / -21 )

Hahaha, based!

Imagine the loss of face that the Korean government must be experiencing right now.

All efforts to paint Japan as the one responsible have ended in this - and it is far from over. As the offended will escalate this further and further, we will see how utterly baseless and petty the Korean government has been acting.

Soon it will be time for the South Korean government to apologize to its citizens.

Watch Korean "journalists" and other paid actors try damage control on this one by pulling something.

18 ( +24 / -6 )

Japan has compensated for its war crimes multiple times. It's time for South Korea to get over the past instead of victimizing itself and indoctrinating its children to hate Japan. It's the only country where people break into the Japanese embassy, refuse to refuel Japanese cars, set themselves on fires at protests, try to make it mandatory to put in schools stickers that say “This device was made by a war criminal”, and harass a U.S. diplomat for having a moustache similar to a Japanese general's. I grew up with my own parents constantly reminding me of what Japan did seventy years ago as if it happened yesterday.

The people are indoctrinated into believing they are still owed something over what happened seventy years ago. The hypocritical, self-righteous attitude makes me ashamed to be Korean.

17 ( +22 / -5 )

Asa neutral observer, those ladies should sue the Korean gvnmt for the money, not the JP one, since JP already paid for compensations over this.

Is quite simple.

24 ( +28 / -4 )

@Coffee

Japan has compensated for its war crimes multiple times

Oxymoronic. Japan has never admitted any war crime or wrongdoing, but has compensated for it?

-16 ( +8 / -24 )

And if these women are hurting why do they accept money as compensation? Why does Japanese moeny make it all better? Isn't that ironic?

No, it’s what society has agreed upon as compensation because we cannot give these women back the time during which they were enslaved or undo the rapes they suffered.

-11 ( +9 / -20 )

The people are indoctrinated into believing they are still owed something over what happened seventy years ago. The hypocritical, self-righteous attitude makes me ashamed to be Korean.

Like the Japanese are indoctrinated into believing they were the victims in WWII?

-14 ( +10 / -24 )

Excellent post,a good reminder about the facts of history.

Thanks.

-12 ( +7 / -19 )

@P. Smith

Like the Japanese are indoctrinated into believing they were the victims in WWII?

Hardly a valid comparison, considering Japan doesn’t hound the U.S. for compensation every few years. Nor do they do anything from Coffee’s long list of protesting tactics.

14 ( +22 / -8 )

Like the Japanese are indoctrinated into believing they were the victims in WWII?

Having women and children been nuked twice, and the Tokyo firebombing killing 500,000 women and children, just in self defense after resource dependent japan was cut off from supplies?

11 ( +19 / -8 )

I doubt these women are really after monetary compensation as much as the victim-industry leeches representing them are.

No different then the BLM race hustlers in America...making sure people are victimized twice. First by the system and then by them as they run off laughing with settlement and donation money.

9 ( +16 / -7 )

SJToday  01:47 pm JST

This is not surprising at all, as legal rulings can differ among judges. The Supreme court of Korea will eventually rule both cases. Bring it to the ICJ is the best way, but Japan never will:

People with at least half a brain know that it is up to the Claimant to bring a case to any court. Japan can not bring a case against itself.

South Korea will never allow this or any issue to be brought before the ICJ. It requires becoming a signatory to an agreement that will compel South Korea to answer any claim brought against it at the ICJ, to recognize the ICJ's jurisdiction and to accept it's rulings.

Since South Korea unilaterally took over the Liancourt Rocks, Japan has tried three times to settle the issue at the ICJ, and each time South Korea has refused.

11 ( +19 / -8 )

Those who cite Germany as a comparison to Japan are uneducated with respect to Military prostitution.

To this date Germany has never acknowledged, apologized or compensated victims of it's military prostitution and brothel systems. In contrast, despite continuous denials, Japan has.

"German military brothels were set up by the Third Reich during World War II throughout much of occupied Europe for the use of Wehrmacht and SS soldiers.[1] These brothels were generally new creations but in the West they were sometimes set up using existing brothels. Until 1942, there were around 500 military brothels of this kind in Nazi occupied Europe.[2] Often operating in confiscated hotels and guarded by the Wehrmacht, these facilities used to serve travelling soldiers and those withdrawn from the front.[3][4] It is estimated that, along with those in concentration camp brothels, at least 34,140 European women were forced to serve as prostitutes during the German occupation.[1] In many cases and Eastern Europe, the women involved were kidnapped on the streets of occupied cities during German military and police round ups.[3][4]

German military brothels in World War II | Military Wiki | Fandom (wikia.org)

11 ( +20 / -9 )

Since South Korea unilaterally took over the Liancourt Rocks, Japan has tried three times to settle the issue at the ICJ, and each time South Korea has refused.

There is no issue regarding ownership of Dokdo Island, it belongs to South Korea, so there is nothing for the ICJ to determine. Kinda like the Senkaku Islands.

-16 ( +6 / -22 )

Having women and children been nuked twice, and the Tokyo firebombing killing 500,000 women and children, just in self defense after resource dependent japan was cut off from supplies?

You’re skipping quite a bit of history. Specifically the but where Japan raped Asia, the beginning of which caused it to be cut off from supplies.

Thanks for proving my point.

-14 ( +8 / -22 )

Hardly a valid comparison, considering Japan doesn’t hound the U.S. for compensation every few years. Nor do they do anything from Coffee’s long list of protesting tactics.

So, you disagree that the Japanese are indoctrinated to believe they were the victims of WWII?

-14 ( +8 / -22 )

Those who cite Germany as a comparison to Japan are uneducated with respect to Military prostitution.

Who did that? I cited Germany facing it’s actions during WWII head on.

German military brothels in World War II | Military Wiki | Fandom (wikia.org)

Nice cite. I’m sure it would be accepted in an academic paper.

Should you use Wikipedia as a credible resource?

No,

because even though Wikipedia is one of the Webs most popular reference sites, it isnt a credible resource because anyone is allowed to be a contributor to the website. Wikipedia Academic has posted an article explaining why it is a bad idea.

https://connorsstate.edu/disted/wikipedia/

-16 ( +7 / -23 )

I sympathize with the comfort women, but I no longer support the SK government exploiting them for extorting money and hatemongering. The Japanese government apologized and paid compensations, and in return SK cancelled the comfort women foundation Japan formed and embezzled money. Shows how much they care about their own.

15 ( +19 / -4 )

@OssenAmerica That big numbers would very clearly contradict to the propaganda and their strong ideology at that time of other countries’ people or races being most unclean, less worth , less human beings and such. With that fascist ideology in your head you surely wouldn’t go to such a place, but help you otherwise. Of course not being absolute zero cases, but in general, I am quite convinced that such behavior was not widely done or officially tolerated by the upper military bosses and similar in charge.

-7 ( +3 / -10 )

How terrible the long lasting scars of war even decades after the conflict finished.

However painful, I think it's time to forgive and forget. Life is too short to be mired in bitterness and anger.

11 ( +14 / -3 )

@OssanAmerica

People with at least half a brain know that it is up to the Claimant to bring a case to any court. Japan can not bring a case against itself.

Another oxymoronic claim. Then, why did Japan consider bringing the case to the ICJ?

https://www.asahi.com/articles/ASP19633PP19UTFK005.html

http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_international/978301.html

-9 ( +7 / -16 )

Omg just pay them the money Japan. Court decision or no do the decent thing.

-15 ( +3 / -18 )

Another oxymoronic claim. Then, why did Japan consider bringing the case to the ICJ?

https://www.asahi.com/articles/ASP19633PP19UTFK005.html

http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_international/978301.html

Ouch! Some people sure don’t like facts.

-8 ( +8 / -16 )

 92-year-old Lee Yong-soo - has been campaigning for South Korea and Japan to settle their decades-long impasse over sexual slavery by seeking judgment from the U.N.'s International Court of Justice.

South Korea will never go before the ICJ. Even for the surviving Comfort Women. If they did Japan would be on them in a flash over the Liancourt Rocks dispute.

5 ( +13 / -8 )

The same court in a largely symbolic ruling in January had called for the Japanese government to give 100 million won ($89,000) each to a separate group of 12 women who sued in 2013 over their wartime suffering as sex slaves.

Knowing it's a separate case, I also wonder how the court will handle conflicting views.

All in all, President lameduck Moon has no time & ability to seek an(other) agreement. A candle purge will await him.

5 ( +11 / -6 )

Indeed what the Seoul Central District Court alone can do to settle an international issue ?

What gains do those old ladies get since the recognition of their plight was made official in 1965 ?

4 ( +6 / -2 )

These Koreans don't milk as much as bl groups but very similar.

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

The Seoul court ruled that the Japanese government should be exempt from civil jurisdiction under the principles of international law, according to South Korea's Yonhap news agency.

What you need to know here is that the process of the forced conscription trial and the comfort women trial are slightly different.

The forced conscription trial was a very old trial in which seven conscription workers had gathered and filed lawsuits for a long time.

In the previous government, the ruling had to be made, but the Park Geun-hye administration, conscious of the sentiment of the S.Korea people's and the Japanese government, could have reached an agreement with the judiciary, but chose to postpone the judgment.

After that, the fact is that the judgment came out at the time of the Moon government.

You will be better aware of what has happened since this ruling.

Anyway, the People's Power Party condemned the judgment of the judiciary, and the S.Korean people criticized the 'People's Power Party' harshly.

The results can be seen by looking at the results of the general election after some time.

It was the overwhelming victory of the Democrats.

Shortly after this, The 'People's Power Party', who suddenly appeared as a spokesman for the comfort women side after a major defeat in the election, volunteered for a press conference.

At a press conference, the 'People's Power Party' announced that the 'Democratic Party' had committed corruption in the process of executing compensation for comfort women.

It was noisy over whether the truth was true or not as reports were reported by the people's Power Party and the comfort women's grandmother's accusations the Democratic Party.

Suddenly, the comfort women's grandmother's side also started a trial saying they would file a lawsuit in the court.

And although it is impossible to intervene by the separation of the three powers, it is true that the Democratic Party was surprised and embarrassed by the results of this trial.

Therefore, these trials were only trials that took place during the administration of the Moon government, and have nothing to do with the will of the Moon government.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Omg just pay them the money Japan. Court decision or no do the decent thing.

Japan already has.

10 ( +13 / -3 )

South Korea will never go before the ICJ. Even for the surviving Comfort Women. If they did Japan would be on them in a flash over the Liancourt Rocks dispute.

There is no dispute over the Dokdo islands, so I’m not sure why you keep bringing them up.

-13 ( +4 / -17 )

Knowing it's a separate case, I also wonder how the court will handle conflicting views.

All in all, President lameduck Moon has no time & ability to seek an(other) agreement. A candle purge will await him.

This is a success case in which the 'People's Power Party' attacked the Democratic Party well in the young people who did not know the modern history well and the elderly generation who did not have knowledge.

In fact, the Moon administration will not intervene with the judiciary over this matter from start to finish.

However, apart from this, I heard that the Moon administration said it was difficult for the Moon government to carry out the ruling, and that even if the Japanese government disregarded the ruling, it seemed that it could not be helped by law.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Their recurring animosity could possibly complicate President Joe Biden's efforts to bolster three-way cooperation with U.S. regional allies

The cooperation hasn't been or won't be three-way. It looks more like a isosceles triangle with the US on the centre edge. Japan and SK remain most distant and minimal in contacts.

VP Biden under the Obama administration strongly urged and witnessed the 2005 pact. His position is clear. He never wants the agreement breached.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

Dear South Korea,

You dig the hole, now lay down in it.

You're responsible for making your people hate Japan with a passion!... Now you can't stop it anymore. Can't control it anymore.

Relationship between Japan and S. Korea has reached a dead end thanks to Moon Jae-in.

No trust left.

No respect left.

No honesty left.

No sincerity left.

After 55 Apologies and compensation paid multiple times Japan is done! Rather fight you to the end of the Earth! Then give one more inch to the hateful Korean.

11 ( +16 / -5 )

@rlaalswls

In fact, the Moon administration will not intervene with the judiciary over this matter from start to finish.

The correct statement is that the Moon administration can not intervene. Unlike Japan, S. Korea is a democratic country where the separation of the 3 powers is firmly established.

-7 ( +4 / -11 )

@noriahojanen

VP Biden under the Obama administration strongly urged and witnessed the 2005 pact. His position is clear. He never wants the agreement breached.

It was not a pact, but just a press conference announcing an oral agreement. It is legally void.

In the ruling, the court reasoned the 2015 deal was too vague and non-binding in nature to pose a potential violation of rights to victims, saying the phrasing of the 2015 deal was non-binding and lacking in concrete details or plans. It also added that the deal did not go through the formal procedures required of binding treaties.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2020/12/120_280991.html

-13 ( +1 / -14 )

OssanAmericaToday  02:36 pm JST

Those who cite Germany as a comparison to Japan are uneducated with respect to Military prostitution.

To this date Germany has never acknowledged, apologized or compensated victims of it's military prostitution and brothel systems. In contrast, despite continuous denials, Japan has.

"German military brothels were set up by the Third Reich during World War II throughout much of occupied Europe for the use of Wehrmacht and SS soldiers.[1] These brothels were generally new creations but in the West they were sometimes set up using existing brothels. Until 1942, there were around 500 military brothels of this kind in Nazi occupied Europe.[2] Often operating in confiscated hotels and guarded by the Wehrmacht, these facilities used to serve travelling soldiers and those withdrawn from the front.[3][4] It is estimated that, along with those in concentration camp brothels, at least 34,140 European women were forced to serve as prostitutes during the German occupation.[1] In many cases and Eastern Europe, the women involved were kidnapped on the streets of occupied cities during German military and police round ups.[3][4]

German military brothels in World War II | Military Wiki | Fandom (wikia.org)

Interesting how you often excuse everything is Japanese.

Your numbers are not a real statement of the facts.

First all the countries involved in the Axis had such kind of issues.

But from the big three was Japan that runned the highest number of brothels not only in Korea but especially in Manchu.

Mister Ossan opinion is not the bible neither mine.

But facts are that world wide Germany is more respected than your loving one for aknowledge it’s mistakes of the past.

-9 ( +4 / -13 )

@AlexBecu

Dear South Korea,

You dig the hole, now lay down in it.

Look back at your own political leaders to know what they are doing right now. Japan needs to escape from the shackles of the past.

Japan PM Suga sends offering to Yasukuni Shrine for war dead - NHK

https://www.reuters.com/article/instant-article/idINKBN272027

-9 ( +2 / -11 )

And, today:

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2021/04/21/national/suga-offering-yasukuni/

-10 ( +2 / -12 )

Japan PM Suga sends offering to Yasukuni Shrine for war dead - NHK

This is the kind of action that make hollow Japan’s previous “apologies”for its rape of Asia.

-7 ( +5 / -12 )

VP Biden under the Obama administration strongly urged and witnessed the 2005 pact. His position is clear. He never wants the agreement breached.

Let me self-correct it: 2005 to 2015 for the pact.

It was not a pact, but just a press conference announcing an oral agreement. It is legally void.

It's far form an empty promise. Under the agreement big amount of money was involved in a fund which was also largely embezzled by corrupt Korean activists. No wonder those activists pressured the former comfort women not to receive money from the (embezzled) fund. How dirty and scandalous!

4 ( +6 / -2 )

"Another oxymoronic claim. Then, why did Japan consider bringing the case to the ICJ?"

Answer:

"Tokyo was “considering a suit with the International Court of Justice” in response to the decision by the Seoul Central District Court."

Operative words: "in response to the decision by the Seoul Central yadda yadda yadda"

1) The only obfuscation is on your understanding of the whole process.

2) Re: Dokdo, even more, damning to SK:

"The ICJ is an organization that resolves disputes between countries based on principles of international law. Historically, Japan has both officially and unofficially proposed going to the ICJ to resolve the territorial dispute over the Dokdo islets and the issue of compensation for forced labor survivors. "

"Both sides need to provide consent for the ICJ to get involved, but Seoul has yet to announce a decision. In a possible nod to this, a senior Japanese government official was quoted by the Asahi Shimbun as saying, “A case [before the ICJ] is a strong option. South Korea’s position stands to suffer if they don’t agree to it.”

n the case of Dokdo, South Korea has declined Japan’s request to go before the ICJ because it already effectively controls the islets. In the case of the Supreme Court decision, it is not certain that the forced mobilization of Koreans under imperial Japan would be recognized as an “illegal and inhumane act” that was not resolved by the 1965 South Korea-Japan Claims Settlement Agreement. The reversal of a ruling by South Korea’s highest court would deal a heavy blow to the Moon Jae-in administration.

"n the case of Dokdo, South Korea has declined Japan’s request to go before the ICJ because it already effectively controls the islets. In the case of the Supreme Court decision, it is not certain that the forced mobilization of Koreans under imperial Japan would be recognized as an “illegal and inhumane act” that was not resolved by the 1965 South Korea-Japan Claims Settlement Agreement. The reversal of a ruling by South Korea’s highest court would deal a heavy blow to the Moon Jae-in administration."

"http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_international/978301.html"

The link's all "yours", I didn't post it.

As a piece of advice, please post link(s) that advance your "case".

Simples.

7 ( +9 / -2 )

William77Today  04:29 pm JST

Interesting how you often excuse everything is Japanese.

Not an excuse at all. But ignoring the very same crime by others while harping only on one country is what is called "bias". This exposes that the objection is not to the crime irself but to one particular country.

7 ( +10 / -3 )

The biggest difference between post WWII Germany and Post WWII Japan is that Germany is not surrounded by nations that have an agenda to make and keep anti-German sentiment and historical issues a diplomatic and political tool. Both nations have appologized and paid compensation to their former victims.

6 ( +8 / -2 )

The biggest difference between post WWII Germany and Post WWII Japan is that Germany is not surrounded by nations that have an agenda to make and keep anti-German sentiment and historical issues a diplomatic and political tool.

The reason Germany isn’t surrounded by such nations is because it has shown actual contrition for its acts during WWII. Japan, however, has constantly attempted to whitewash its rape of Asia and make itself the victim instead of the aggressor.

Both nations have appologized and paid compensation to their former victims.

The difference is Germany has backed up its apologies with deeds whereas Japan has constantly undermined its “apologies” with deeds.

-8 ( +3 / -11 )

It’s rather disturbing how critics thinking and logic fly our the door for Japan apologists.

-9 ( +2 / -11 )

Looks like Abe slapped some sense to Korean government, finally. No more appeasements because it only fueled their desire for more

3 ( +7 / -4 )

Folks what the heck are you discussing about? These plaintiffs do not even have rights to make such claim.

Restore human dignity? Stop joking. These plaintiffs including Lee Yong-Soo or Yoon Mi-Hyang ( as rep of Kim Bok-Dong) should go to jail for the crime fooling entire world and ruin The humane dignity

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Who said the different judge can make different verdict? Either you join the 1st group or 2nd with just a couple of months difference? This stupid Korean justice has not even touched fact-finding process about the claim.

Did you even know it?

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Lee Yong Soo said ”I testified as I was told (by Chong Dae Hyup) but they( Yoon Me-Hyang and Chong Dae Hyup) don't protect me when I got attacked"

Stop dancing on the hands of these crooks

4 ( +7 / -3 )

From the beginning to the end or from the Finish to the start. Where ever this goes, Its sad that Japan doesn't win or lose, its sad that Seoul doesn't win or lose. What is sad is the victims that are being used as political pawns. They are the ones who lose with lost souls!!

0 ( +2 / -2 )

The Seoul court ruled that the Japanese government should be exempt from civil jurisdiction under the principles of international law, according to South Korea's Yonhap news agency.

But Japanese companies do not get that protection which is why the previous case succeeded.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@kennyG

Who said the different judge can make different verdict?

For example, there are 10 judges in the Korean supreme court, and many rulings are not unanimous. You seem to have no idea about the jurisdictional system either in Japan or Korea. International law is a very difficult area for most judges in the local courts.

-9 ( +2 / -11 )

Peeping_Tom

Answer:

.

.

What? Can you summarize your answer in one or two sentences? Grandiose writing is a feature of Japanese politicians and bureaucrats to obfuscate the issue.

-10 ( +2 / -12 )

@OssanJapan

South Korea will never go before the ICJ. Even for the surviving Comfort Women.

No need to go to the ICJ. This case will be appealed and overturned in the supreme court, which already held Japanese state responsible on forced laborer case.

-11 ( +2 / -13 )

Are we still fighting world war two if no the cut this crp go to icj or anywhere br move on never let it b stagnant in gangnam street n stink forever move on move on just move

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@Furan

All efforts to paint Japan as the one responsible have ended in this

You don't understand the context of this ruling. This ruling affirms the legal responsibility of Japanese state on forced conscription of comfort women. What this ruling claims is that Japanese state cannot be sued due to legal immunity of sovereign states.

Of course, Korea's supreme court already ruled universal jurisdiction overrides Japan's sovereign immunity, so this ruling will be overturned at higher courts.

-11 ( +2 / -13 )

@OssanJapan

The biggest difference between post WWII Germany and Post WWII Japan

The biggest difference between post WWII Germany and Japan is that Germany admits the guilt of German state for the eternity, and criminalizes history denial and Nazi worshipping, while Japan denies the guilt of Imperial Japan, and worships Rising Sun flag and A-class war criminals resting at Yasukuni.

It is of no wonder that Germany's neighbors have made peace with Germany, while Japan's neighbors are ready to go to war with Japan to settle the historical disputes.

-11 ( +2 / -13 )

What does the victim need the money for? Her lawyers?

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Last January's ruling was a legal aberration. For the following reasons:

1). The court had no jurisdiction.

2). Ignored the conflict reparation clause, provided for in the 1965 treaty.

3). Ignored the existence of the 2015 agreement. That resolved these issues, or at least provided a solution to most of them.

It simply condemned Japan, with simplistic criteria that it implied. That the Japanese government was doing nothing to fix the problem. A sentence influenced by political power. Far from a purely technical and legal deliberation.

On the other hand. Today's sentence has some very solid arguments. I have been able to access an extended summary of this judgment in English.

It not only includes the parts that were omitted in the January ruling. It also relates that some people benefited from the 2015 agreement. With the taking of the money coming from the Japanese government. The court considers that the affected parties are claiming the same money twice.

This ruling simply resolves the legal chaos caused by the previous one.

If the South Korean supreme court overturns this ruling. It will be committing a serious act of prevarication.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

@dougthehead13

If the South Korean supreme court overturns this ruling. 

It's not if but when. The Korean Supreme Court already ruled its universal jurisdiction overrides Japan's sovereign immunity.

-11 ( +2 / -13 )

Everyone on this discussion has talked circles around the main matter at hand. A domestic South Korean court has no jurisdiction over Japan. Period. A Korean court cannot legally impose a fine on Japan. Any ruling a South Korean court makes has no legal weight. Japan can ignore it and rightly so. They have no obligation to pay anything just because some South Korean court says so. In legal proceedings, jurisdiction and standing matter greatly. Any such payment would have to be agreed upon by both governments or both governments could agree to accept a decision by the ICJ and litigate the matter there.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

For Ossan, while the US Government did not run brothels in Italy during the post WWII occupation or recruit women into prostitution they certainly existed and were patronized by soldiers. I do know the US Army would provide medical care and annual physical exams of prostitutes in Italy and give them an official US Army medical card attesting to their, um, fitness and freedom from disease. During the post war occupation there one of my dad's duties when he wasn't being sniped at by the Yugoslavs ( he was posted near Trieste, an area Tito was trying to claim for Yugoslavia) was to check that the local ladies had an up to date medical card and if they didn't they were sent to Naples on a US Army train to be checked out at the US Army hospital at their Headquarters there. What were back then referred to as "camp followers" were a feature of all large armies.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

@samit

*Of course, Korea's supreme court already ruled universal jurisdiction overrides Japan's sovereign immunity, so *this ruling will be overturned at higher courts.

I never heard of universal jurisdiction so I took a quick research on it and I have some questions.

How does the Korean court have jurisdiction of universal jurisdiction? It seems that the International Criminal Court should be the one to have universal jurisdiction from what I read. Also, universal jurisdiction seems to be a matter of criminal trials while the treaty involves civil issues of compensation. So what is the Korean supreme court basing its ruling based on universal jurisdiction that deals with a criminal case? Are they saying that the comfort woman system was ruled a war crime and thus they have universal jurisdiction?? If so, when did this trial and ruling occur?

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Of course, Korea's supreme court already ruled universal jurisdiction overrides Japan's sovereign immunity, so *this ruling will be overturned at higher courts.

Universal Jurisdiction where it has been applied has been used to prosecute individuals for war crimes or crimes against humanity with the goal of placing the person in prison as punishment. South Korea might have legal standing and could possibly apply the concept of universal jurisdiction to prosecute a Japanese individual accused of being involved sexual slavery of Korean women and, having obtained a conviction, imprison the perpetrator. It is a tool by which an individual accused of war crimes or crimes against humanity can be brought to face the bar across national boundaries. However nothing in the literature of universal jurisdiction suggests a nation can sue another nation for monetary damages and oblige another sovereign state to pay these damages out of their treasury. It is not a tool through which one nation may prosecute another nation rather than an individual and demand payment for damages.

7 ( +8 / -1 )

According to the International Justice Resource Center, The term “universal jurisdiction” is the idea that a national court may prosecute individuals for serious crimes against international law — such as crimes against humanity, war crimes, genocide, and torture — based on the principle that such crimes harm the international community or international order itself, which individual States may act to protect. It is generally invoked when other forms of criminal jurisdiction are not available (e.g., the subject is not a national of the State or didn't commit a crime in that State’s territory, against its nationals, or the State’s own national interests are not adversely affected. Generally, national courts can exercise universal jurisdiction when the State has adopted laws recognizing the relevant crimes and authorizing their prosecution.

These trials can be nasty little events to sit through and watch. Very seldom are those occasions where atrocities are committed are limited to just one state. Some of the worse are those committed by allies / agents / surrogates (e.g., puppet governments or those orchestrated by governments in exile). Many trials force reflections over some very hard historic truths.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

@Desert Tortoise

Universal jurisdiction has been used against nation states before.

This is how Otto Warmbier's parents won a $500 million verdict against North Korea.

Hence for stuff like crimes against humanity, sovereign immunity doesn't apply and Japan is held liable for its war crimes committed during WW2.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/otto-warmbiers-family-wins-500m-judgment-case-north/story?id=60001728

Otto Warmbier's family wins $500M judgment in case against North Korea

An American court has ruled that the family of Otto Warmbier are owed in excess of $500 million by the North Korean government.

-9 ( +2 / -11 )

Samit: I appreciate how you bring facts to these threads.

-10 ( +1 / -11 )

Technically, the case was a civil action brought by the estate under the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (FSIA), 28 U.S.C. § 1602, et seq., against North Korea for its torture, hostage taking, and extrajudicial killing of Otto. Default judgment was granted in 2018 since the DEPK didn't appear to defend. Under the FSIA, foreign governments are generally immunized from lawsuits brought against them in the United States unless an FSIA exception applies. Jurisdiction under the terrorism exception (this case) may be exercised when the plaintiff establishes four elements, including one that “the foreign state was designated as a state sponsor of terrorism at the time [of] the act . . . or was so designated as a result of such act, and . . . remains so designated when the claim is filed.” The State Department’s designation of North Korea as a state sponsor of terrorism was, at least in part, a result of North Korea’s detention and mistreatment of Otto.

5 ( +5 / -0 )

They say she's a fake comfort woman.

She's younger than her late 80s by all accounts.

She is also famous for changing her testimony every time.

There is not a single piece of evidence to prove her age.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

Universal jurisdiction has been used against nation states before.

This is how Otto Warmbier's parents won a $500 million verdict against North Korea.

Hence for stuff like crimes against humanity, sovereign immunity doesn't apply and Japan is held liable for its war crimes committed during WW2.

That's not exactly true. Universal jurisdiction can be invoked to criminally prosecute individuals for crimes against humanity, but not to award civil claims against states. As @Skeptical points out, the Warmbiers were able to sue the North Korean government only thanks to peculiarities in domestic US law (which are completely out of step with the rest of the world). No other country will recognise the judgement if the Warmbiers attempt to enforce it overseas.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

Hence for stuff like crimes against humanity, sovereign immunity doesn't apply and Japan is held liable for its war crimes committed during WW2.

Still doesn't make sense. When did the court rule that the comfort woman system was ruled a war crime? When did that trial occur? If there was no trial, Korea cannot unilaterally declare it as a war crime and then impose that as a basis that sovereign immunity will not apply based on universal jurisdiction.

@P.Smith,

He's bringing facts that doesn't add up no matter how much you want your country to be right. The United States Federal Court dismissed a class action suit brought upon by comfort woman on the basis of sovereign immunity. Here's another article indicating Korea's erroneous ruling on the matter.

https://thediplomat.com/2021/02/south-koreas-dubious-comfort-women-ruling/

6 ( +7 / -1 )

In the first place, it is not true that Korea is the victim. It is no exaggeration to say that all of the claims made by Koreans are lies.

The draft, conscription, and comfort women were all targeted at the Japanese first. Especially in the case of conscription and recruitment, Koreans were only subjected to them for about a year before the end of the war. If we exclude the preparation period, the period was less than half a year.

In 1937, while many young Japanese were dying in the war with China, Koreans were establishing newspapers, film companies, trading companies, record companies, cosmetics companies, and many other companies. This is not surprising, since the percentage of Japanese who occupied the Korean Peninsula was only about 10% at the time.

There is a movie called Spring on the Peninsula (1941). It is not necessary to know the contents of the film, but the fact that the company that shot the film was headed by a Korean shows that many of the claims made by Koreans are false. If you know the background of the cinematographer, you will be even more convinced that the Koreans are lying. He learned filming techniques at a Japanese film company, acquired expensive filming equipment, set up his own filming company, hired actors, and shot this film. Where is the Nazi-like Empire of Japan that the Koreans criticize?

(Reference: "Spring on the Peninsula " https://youtu.be/T0MiZnCvb7s )

1 ( +5 / -4 )

There are NONE in the plaintiffs group(s) in terms of official definition of a victim of Japanese military comfort women.

Lee Yong-Soo, Kil Wong-Ok both press charged against, and Yoon Mi-hyang actually indicted already. Plaintiffs group including these crooks would appeal and the South Korean supreme court would overturn this ruling under universal jurisdiction rule, even without one-bit of fact-finding process from the bottom to the top court?

Don’t joke around too much.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

@M3M3M3

That's not exactly true. Universal jurisdiction can be invoked to criminally prosecute individuals for crimes against humanity, but not to award civil claims against states.

You and others have better cite sources supporting your claim. Your claim is simply fake, is easily refuted by the following single document:

https://www.courthousenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/WarmbierOrder.pdf

And study a little bit more on Japanese law regarding sovereign immunity.

Act on the Civil Jurisdiction of Japan with respect to a Foreign State, etc.

Act No. 24 of April 24, 2009

Article 10 In cases where the death of or injury to a person or the loss of or damage to a tangible object resulted from an act for which it is claimed a Foreign State, etc., should take responsibility, if all or part of said act took place in Japan and the person who performed said act was in Japan at the time it was committed, said Foreign State, etc. shall not be immune from jurisdiction with respect to Judicial Proceedings in which monetary compensation for the damage or loss resulting from said act is being sought.

第十条 外国等は、人の死亡若しくは傷害又は有体物の滅失若しくは毀損が、当該外国等が責任を負うべきものと主張される行為によって生じた場合において、当該行為の全部又は一部が日本国内で行われ、かつ、当該行為をした者が当該行為の時に日本国内に所在していたときは、これによって生じた損害又は損失の金銭によるてん補に関する裁判手続について、裁判権から免除されない。

http://www.japaneselawtranslation.go.jp/law/detail/?id=1948&vm=04&re=01

政府参考人(倉吉敬君) 確かに、ここに書かれているのは人の死亡若しくは傷害という、要するにいわゆる我々が日本法で不法行為と考えるときは、損害はもっといろんなものがございます、精神的苦痛であるとかですね。だから、その程度のものは国家はもう主権免除してあげようよという、そういう配慮があるわけです。

https://kokkai.ndl.go.jp/simple/detail?minId=117115206X00920090416&spkNum=107#s107

-9 ( +0 / -9 )

@SJ

And study a little bit more on Japanese law regarding sovereign immunity.

This deals with internation law regarding treaties formed between the two countries. Thus, you don't focus on Japanese law.

State immunity is a principle in international law that holds that the exercise of governmental authority is immune from civil prosecution in another country’s courts. As the South Korean special law of 1993 stipulates that comfort women were forcibly recruited by the Japanese government, the legal character of its act was tantamount to the exercise of governmental authority. As such, it must be exempt from civil prosecution in South Korean courts.

The January ruling found that Japan did not have state immunity on the grounds that Japan’s forced recruitment amounts to a war crime or crime against humanity, violating peremptory norms (jus cogens). However, at the level of international law, state immunity is an issue that is entirely distinct from international crimes and/or peremptory norms. Peremptory norms, as stipulated in the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, apply to the validity of treaties, an issue far removed from state immunity. Peremptory norms do not override state immunity.

This is all from the article I posted above.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Bad things happen in a war time setting - particularly during these pre-human rights period.

These women experienced what countless other women have experienced in war setting. Granted, some of these Korean women were willingly trafficked by families, others were duped by pimp like Korean men and women working in collaboration with Japanese military, etc. Unfortunately, sad but true! Some victims - others willing participants.

Heck, even in my East African neck of the woods, Idi Amin's soldiers did the same with complicity from some women and their families who willingly accepted payments, portions of Nyama (meat), cooking oil, etc - in exchange for sex with Amin's depraved and horny soldiers. Alas, no different from these so-called Korean victims - some of whom plied their trade with those soldiers for their own peculiar reasons.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

@SJ

You and others have better cite sources supporting your claim. Your claim is simply fake, is easily refuted by the following single document:

And study a little bit more on Japanese law regarding sovereign immunity.

Act on the Civil Jurisdiction of Japan with respect to a Foreign State, etc.

The principle of sovereign immunity is universally recognised under international law. A basic search will give you an infinite number of sources for this. I read the document you linked to about the Warmbier case and it makes clear on page 34 that the right to sue North Korea stems from domestic US law.

Regarding Japanese sovereign immunity law, you've misunderstood what Article 10 actually means. It doesn't give people carte blanche to sue foreign states in Japan. You need to read Article 10 in context by first looking at Article 3 which clearly states:

'Article 3: The provisions of this Act shall not affect the privileges or immunities enjoyed by a Foreign State, etc. based on treaties or the established international law. '

Established International law says that states enjoy sovereign immunity for acts of state (ie. conducting diplomacy, waging war, etc). So what does Article 10 actually mean? Yes, it says is that a foreign state can be sued in a Japanese civil court but only if the claim resulted from an act for which the foreign state 'should take responsibility'. The key question is; what acts should a foreign state take responsibility for? The answer is any act which is not an act of state. Sovereign immunity doesn't extend to commercial transactions, employment contracts, and so on. These are the things that Article 10 allows you to sue for.

For example: If a foreign government declares war on Japan and accidentally drops a bomb on my house, this is an act of state where sovereign immunity applies. I cannot sue the foreign government in a Japanese court. However, if the same government hires me to cater an embassy party and I sustain injuries due to their unsafe premises or equipment, it's a different story.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

For example, there are 10 judges in the Korean supreme court, and many rulings are not unanimous. You seem to have no idea about the jurisdictional system either in Japan or Korea. International law is a very difficult area for most judges in the local courts.

You just don't get it do you. Just a couple of months difference, the same suits face totally opposite verdicts.

Your country is not ruled by LAW, it is being ruled by emotional ideology under insane justice running out of control.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

So I guess the question becomes, what do they consider "fair compensation" obviously not all the money Japan has paid Korea.

We hear how "Japan hasn't really atoned" what's their suggestion then? More money? This is nothing but a political move by politicians to get elected.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

A bit of common sense at last. But I doubt it will stop the interminable whingeing over this 'sex slave' nonsense. Men die in battle. Civilians are killed in bombings. Women have sex. And it is the sex that is seen by some as requiring the most compensation. Madness!

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Desert TortoiseToday  01:40 am JST

For Ossan, while the US Government did not run brothels in Italy during the post WWII occupation or recruit women into prostitution they certainly existed and were patronized by soldiers. I do know the US Army would provide medical care and annual physical exams of prostitutes in Italy and give them an official US Army medical card attesting to their, um, fitness and freedom from disease.

I was not aware of this but am not surprised. Military prostitution/brothel systems exist to prevent rapes in the field and the spread of VD among the soldiers.

From the US Army Report 49 interrogation of captured "Comfort Women" Burma 1944.

"The interrogations further show that the health of these girls was good. They were well supplied with all types of contraceptives, and often soldiers would bring their own which had been supplied by the army. They were well trained in looking after both themselves and customers in the matter of hygiene. A regular Japanese Army doctor visited the houses once a week and any girl found diseased was given treatment, secluded, and eventually sent to a hospital."

https://www.exordio.com/1939-1945/codex/Documentos/report-49-USA-orig.html

1 ( +1 / -0 )

It is reasonable to assume that all these insane Korean activists either domestic or overseas are heavily brainwashed by pro-north cults. Watch out. Not just Chong Dae Hyup or Yoon Mi-Hyang, they are everywhere, many of them in US too, not to mention, those regular posters here in JT discussion boards.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Early in May of 1942 Japanese agents arrived in Korea for the purpose of enlisting Korean girls for "comfort service" in newly conquered Japanese territories in Southeast Asia. The nature of this "service" was not specified but it was assumed to be work connected with visiting the wounded in hospitals, rolling bandages, and generally making the soldiers happy.

The majority of the girls were ignorant and uneducated,

https://www.exordio.com/1939-1945/codex/Documentos/report-49-USA-orig.html

1 ( +2 / -1 )

P.Smith: There is no dispute over the Dokdo islands

This reminds me of another quote: "You did not see any graphite!"

we will go to the International Court of Justice

I think Japan would very much welcome this opportunity to finally get SK to agree on a trial concerning the Liancourt Rocks, etc. from the ICJ as well.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Early in May of 1942 Japanese agents arrived in Korea for the purpose of enlisting Korean girls for "comfort service" in newly conquered Japanese territories in Southeast Asia. The nature of this "service" was not specified but it was assumed to be work connected with visiting the wounded in hospitals, rolling bandages, and generally making the soldiers happy.

I think the quote is too partial. It also reads that the report author is ignorant about the word comfort women.

Even today, when recruiting prostitutes, they are not recruited under the profession of prostitute. It is not the same as it actually is, but to make it a little easier to understand in English, for example, it is replaced by words such as delivery health worker. And, most of the general public at least knows what it is.

The same goes for the word "comfort women". In 1942, the word "comfort women" had already been used in newspaper advertisements for more than five years, and there was an unspoken understanding of what the job entailed.

Of course, it says that the girls were ignorant, so it is possible that they did not know about it. On the other hand, it also says that the girls were selfish and had twisted personalities, so they could be lying. The more tragic the position, the more sympathetic these women will be.

Also, due to reports of interrogations of prostitutes and civilians, it is questionable whether "Japanese agents arrived in Korea" is factual or not.

In addition, the overall content of the report is conclusive that these women were mere prostitutes.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

It seem like rocking up in a wheelchair at court aren't working anymore.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Some Koreans who are now feeling betrayed by President Moon appear convinced that he rigged the outcome of this lawsuit to please President Biden before meeting him next month. What happened to bragging about how South Korea, unlike Japan, is a genuine democracy with separation of powers between the judicial and executive branches? Is it really so easy for the South Korean president to just snap his fingers and make a court rule a certain way? If so, I guess South Korea like Japan has problems with a judiciary that is not fully independent.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

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