politics

S Korea reportedly plans to build hotel on disputed islets

140 Comments

South Korea has decided to actively enhance the habitability of a disputed set of islets in the Sea of Japan also claimed by Japan, including building a marine hotel there, a Seoul daily reported Monday.

The government and the ruling Grand National Party agreed on the measures to enhance the habitability of the islets, called Dokdo in South Korea and Takeshima in Japan, on Sunday at a high-level meeting of officials from both sides, according to the Dong-a Ilbo.

They also decided to move away from South Korea's so-called ''quiet diplomacy'' with Japan toward a more active approach, the report said.

Along with the hotel construction, the measures include building a comprehensive marine base, ensuring accessibility to citizens, creating a permanent residential village and a Dokdo experience center, and building a Dokdo museum in the Seoul metropolitan area, it said.

The two sides decided to replace the current designation of the measures to ensure South Korea's sovereignty over the islets from ''measures to secure effective control over the Dokdo islets'' to ''measures to protect territorial rights over the Dokdo islets'' since the former designation presupposes a territorial dispute, according to the report.

Japan recently decided to refer to the islets in a teaching guideline for junior high schools, drawing protests from South Korea.

Meanwhile, South Korean Prime Minister Han Seung-Soo on Sunday accused Japan of damaging bilateral ties and putting regional peace at risk with its renewed claim to the islets.

Han, meeting with ruling party lawmakers, rejected Tokyo's new education guidelines calling for "a deeper understanding" of Japan's claims to the islets.

"This is not only damaging the amicable South Korea-Japan relationship... but also undermining peace in Northeast Asia by letting the future generations repeat the distorted history," Han said.

The ruling Grand National Party (GNP) said in a statement after the talks with Han that Seoul would make the rocky islets sufficiently habitable for people to live on, helping to thwart Tokyo's territorial claims.

"The party, the government and the (presidential) Blue House reached a concensus that it is very important to make Dokdo inhabited islands as one of the concrete countermeasures," it said, without elaborating.

Also discussed at the talks was the possibility of exploring minerals in the seabeds, allowing wider public access, building a maritime hotel to promote tourism and sending marines to the islets, it said.

In protest, South Korea last week recalled its ambassador to Japan and rejected Japan's proposal for foreign ministerial talks on the sidelines of a regional security forum in Singapore this coming week.

Angry South Koreans have almost daily held protest rallies at the heavily-guarded Japanese embassy in Seoul, with some last week beheading live pheasants, Japan's national bird.

In the southern city of Busan, an association of civic groups launched a campaign to boycott Japanese cars. The Seoul metro has withdrawn a series of adverts promoting Japanese condoms.

South Korea stations a small unit of maritime police on the rugged and treeless islands.

Japan claimed them in 1905 after winning a war with Russia in the region. It went on to annex the entire Korean peninsula from 1910 until its 1945 defeat in World War II.

"Dokdo belongs to Korea historically, geographically and in terms of international laws," Han said reiterating Seoul's position.

"There is no question about our sovereign rights to Dokdo because we effectively control it."

Han said Seoul would work out a long-term strategic plan to "further strengthen the effective control" of the islets, calling for bipartisan support from parliament in handling the issue.

© Wire reports

©2021 GPlusMedia Inc.

140 Comments
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Dude they are tree less islands! lets not behead any more birds.

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Islet issues ,new issues affecting japanese and south koreans. Hope Lee Myung bak and Fukuda, start making deal talks, to preserve and good interactions, enjoyed by japanese and south koreans. Both of them should not let tiny islets issues, reduce ties, which are mutually beneficial.

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Yup, it's always Japan's fault. Always.

Next.

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After their defeat in WWII the punishment was outlined in the Cairo Accords og 1943 and was part of the Unconditional Potsdam Surrender Documents. Specifically, the Accords read "ALL LANDS TAKEN BY VIOLENCE OR GREED, SHALL BE RETURNED TO THEIR RIGHTFUL OWNERS." This was acomplished and immediately Japan tried to get these areas returned and when oil was siscovered in the area of the Senkaku Islands there were "secret deals" made to get the Ryukyu Islands returned. Japan has already learned Russia is a lost cause and the Island of Taiwan is more or less being protected from Japan by a "hovering China." I feel things will calm down when the United States gains a new President and the United Nations come to their senses.

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Both of them should not let tiny islets issues, reduce ties, which are mutually beneficial.

'tiny'? how due you measure it by weight or volume? it is a huge issue from historical point of view, ask both SK and Japan. However, i will treat this as a regional issue (street fight) of zero significance, knowing that US military presence is very strong in these two countries.

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The Marion wrote: "I feel things will calm down when the United States gains a new President and the United Nations come to their senses."

If you read the following page of the Japanese government, you can understand Japan's position more in detail. http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/takeshima/index.html

Also, regarding United Nations, you should read the following page: http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/takeshima/proposal.html

Japan already proposed to ROK that we should solve the issue at the International Court of Justice. But ROK refused to do so.

It says:

In September 1954, Japan proposed, with a note verbal, to the ROK that the issue concerning the sovereignty of Takeshima be submitted to the International Court of Justice, but the ROK rejected the proposal. In addition, on the occasion of the Foreign Ministerial talks in March 1962, Zentaro Kosaka, then Minister for Foreign Affairs of Japan, made a proposal to Choi Duk-shin, then Minister of Foreign Affairs of the ROK, to submit the issue to the Court, but this proposal was not accepted by the ROK. This situation remains the same until now.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

God, I'm sick of this. Take it to the international court and stop using it for political gain.

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Having introduced the standpoint of the Japanese government, I really agree that there are some unclear points about the Takeshima/Dokdo territory issue. And, as like many other similar issues, it will not be possible to solve it soon at once. So, I think it important to understanding the following points:

Takeshima/Dokdo is currently occupied by ROK. This is the fact. The Japanese government insists on the right to legally possess the island, and is ready to solve it at ICJ. Of course, the assertion's validity should be examined at ICJ. ROK also insists on the rights about the island. But she does not accept Japan's proposal to solve the issue at ICJ. This makes it difficult to objectively examine the assertion's validity. In this situation, both Japan and Korea cannot perfectly verify and justify the validity of their assertion on the possession of Takeshima/Dokdo, unless both agree to solve the issue at ICJ. This simply means that it's nonsense to make the confliction and nationalistic polemics heat up anymore. It's very natural for the Japanese government to write its opinions in their textbooks (or guidebooks for educational purposes). It's also natural that two neighboring countries have different opinions about their territories. Because of the pacifist principle of the Constitution of Japan, it's nonsense to think that Japan would invade the areas that ROK currently occupies to recapture Takeshima/Dokdo. (Since the end of WWII, Japan has not tried to invade foreign territories for any reasons). The Takeshima/Dokdo issue is only one issue, however important. Worsening the Japan-Korea relation will benefit the North Korean tyranny only, and useless.

I think the current reaction to the issue by South Koreans is excessive and too emortional. It will effective just in making the North Korean tyranny prolong. It will bad for North Korean people, they won't be liberated soon.

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"After their defeat in WWII the punishment was outlined in the Cairo Accords og 1943 and was part of the Unconditional Potsdam Surrender Documents. Specifically, the Accords read "ALL LANDS TAKEN BY VIOLENCE OR GREED, SHALL BE RETURNED TO THEIR RIGHTFUL OWN"

Marion- The Liancourt Rocks (Takeshima/Dokdo) was NEVER included in any handover to S.Korea and remained as Japanese property as far as the United States Military and GHQ was concerned. In fact even SKorea never made a claim on these rocks until 1952. Your ranting about the Senkaku Islamds or Okinawa are irrelevant to this article.

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"“Dokdo belongs to Korea historically, geographically and in terms of international laws,” Han said reiterating Seoul’s position."

How does he know this when SKorea has and continues to take this dispute before the International Court of Justice?

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This is a beat up. Before being drawn in by the South Korean arguments (or not) you have to ask why is the South Korean government whipping up public hysteria regarding this issue at the current time? The answer is that the new administration in Seoul has seen its popularity ratings drop through the floor over the last couple of months due to the backlash against the resumption of US beef imports, etc. As you know, there is nothing like a perceived external threat to cover over domestic policy crises. Japan should do one of the following. Either it should sit on it hands until the powers that be get their collective heads out of certain parts of their anatomy, or it should start playing indirect hardball by using its international status to counter South Korean foreign policy at every turn.

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Japan took it by force and then lost it. Dokdo is korean not japanese. Korea refuses the ICJ because they think it is korean, always has been korean ans will stay Korean. Korea fears that since Japan has more power, whatever the facts, it will be taken back. Kind of paranoiac but legitimate.

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Japan never took these rocks by force. There was never anything on them to take. Japan never lost them at the end of WWII in 1945. SKorea never made on claim on them until 1952.

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After their defeat in WWII the punishment was outlined in the Cairo Accords og 1943 and was part of the Unconditional Potsdam Surrender Documents. Specifically, the Accords read "ALL LANDS TAKEN BY VIOLENCE OR GREED, SHALL BE RETURNED TO THEIR RIGHTFUL OWNERS." This was acomplished and immediately Japan tried to get these areas returned and when oil was siscovered in the area of the Senkaku Islands there were "secret deals" made to get the Ryukyu Islands returned. Japan has already learned Russia is a lost cause and the Island of Taiwan is more or less being protected from Japan by a "hovering China."

The Marion,

You seem to use the same argument every time, so here it goes, Japan has no claims to Taiwan, and hasn't had any since the end of WWII. Next, the Ryukyus were to be returned to Japan long before anything valuable was ever found. Also, the Ryukyus, were conquered by the Satsuma domain (Shimazu family), not by the Japanese gov't, so the Ryukyus were never included in the Cairo Accords. The Shimazu were vassals to the Tokugawa and have no connection to the post-Tokugawa gov'ts. The Ryukyus are Japanese and always will be. Russia isn't a lost cause, in fact the Russian gov't agreed to return part of the Hopo Ryodo in return for the renunciation of other Japanese claims. However, the Hopo Ryodo were gained through treaty not war, so the whole of the Hopo Ryodo is Japanese. You need to get your facts straight.

As for Takeshima, the Japanese have a legitimate claim and so long as the South Koreans refuse to discuss the issue, there can be no closure.

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It's nonsense to overheat this discussion. Because:

Its worsening the Japan-Korea relation benefits only the North Korean tyranny.

The issue is just one of many issues between the neighboring countries.

Japan says, "It should be mine". Korea says, "No, it's mine". Just that.

In fact, S. Korea occupies Takeshima/Dokdo today. And, Japan cannot deprive S. Korea of the island by force, because of the Japanese constitution, and many other economical, financial, practical reasons.

So, it's nonsense to make the issue a symbol of Japan's colonialism or imperialism. Because, such things no longer exist, at least about the islands. The truth is just that two countries have different opinions about the possession of the islands.

S. Korean people, why are you so over-heated? Whatever the Japanese government insists about the islands, Japan won't try to invade Korea again, because it's leagally and practically impossible.

Over-heating the controversy will just benefit North Korea. As long as the North Korean tyranny survives, people in North Korean won't be liberated. Do you understand this simple fact?

Regarding the today's Japanese government as an imperialist, militaristic state is just a nonsense illusion.

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I agree with hermitage, South Korea's supporters need to stop playing the WWII card. It's about time to move on. Forgive but do not forget.

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If the two countries can co-host a World Cup tournament, they can share the bloody islands. Let's rename them "Hello Kittyland" and let everybody live happily ever after.

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He's trying to boost his ratings by stoking Korean nationalism. Simple as that.

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Yes, both sides must be calm about this, because the issue has no solution at all. The Japanese government has to insist on her rights about the islands in principle, but what she wants to solve most is more practical issues such as fishing. It's totally nonsense to worsen the Japan-Korean relation for this island issue.

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The Koreans always need a scapegoat and if its not the United States, then its Japan.

At least they seem to have forgotten about the US beef...

The Korean government is probably doing this so they can shift public anger from the president and the US beef fiasco over to Japan.

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"There is no question about our sovereign rights to Dokdo because we effectively control it.” South Korean Prime Minister Han Seung-Soo

"Might makes right." Genghis Khan

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Yes, it's a big surprise. “There is no question about our sovereign rights to Dokdo because we effectively control it.”

How this faithfully resembles the logic of the horrible, bloody and fanatic ancien regime of the Japanese Imperialism!

Yes, you are right, Mr. Han. Today's pacifist government of Japan formed after the WWII does not have the legitimacy and power to recapture Takeshima/Dokdo, without bring the issue to the ICJ. We, including even those who believes Japan's assertion about the island is 100% correct, don't think this current state is a shame. Rather, we are glad to know that we could be freed from the fanatic nationalism that instigates the people to appeal to military force to solve problems.

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South Korean Prime Minister Han Seung-Soo on Sunday accused Japan of damaging bilateral ties and putting regional peace at risk

The Pot Calling The Kettle Black.

There is no question about our sovereign rights to Dokdo because we effectively control it

(Illegally) occupying and controlling Takeshima make it right, of course.

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Angry South Koreans have almost daily held protest rallies at the heavily-guarded Japanese embassy in Seoul, with some last week beheading live pheasants, Japan’s national bird.

those south korean protestors are sick man.. south korea showing there superiority

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ecodrive, "SKoreans are up in arms against Japan's sneaky moves"

Why can they do it? They already control and occupy the island. Japan did not intend to recapture the island by force. They just printed their official opinion that has long been official in a guidebook for educational organizations. So, even if S. Korean's assertion is correct and Japan's is wrong, why can they justify their being "up in arms against" Japan's "sneaky moves"? Before they lift their arms, why don't they try to use their "speech" and "logic", instead of "arms"? Why do they refuse to discuss it at the ICJ?

Why are they so up-heated? Isn't it unnecessary? Japan's constitution prohibits the government to use its military force to solve any international conflicts. So, there's no possibility of Japan's self-defence army attacks Takeshima/Dodko. It's not just legally but also economically, practically nonsense for Japan to take such an hopless adventurous military action.

Most Japanese people, including those who want to have better relation with S. Korea, are disappointed at the S. Korean fanatic, over-heated, emotional reactions to this issue. Why do S. Korean people try to impair the Japan-Korea relation and benefit North Korea that has been severely oppressiing North Korean people, just because of this issue?

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Japan took it by force and then lost it. Dokdo is korean not japanese. Korea refuses the ICJ because they think it is korean, always has been korean ans will stay Korean. Korea fears that since Japan has more power, whatever the facts, it will be taken back. Kind of paranoiac but legitimate.

Japan never took it by force; they've always had those islands. Where are you getting your info from? From the Korean political propaganda machine? No doubt you've been brainwashed like countless other Koreans to think that it belonged to Korea. No, the reason Korea doesn't want to take it to ICJ is because they're sissies that's afraid of the real outcome: that it rightfully belongs to Japan and will be rightfully returned to her. I love your "Kind of paranoiac but legitimate." Haha legitimate as long as it favors the Koreans LOL! Funny.

For those with a deeper interest in this issue, check out:

http://dokdo-or-takeshima.blogspot.com

There are lots of old maps, historical records, etc. there that prove it's always been Japan's islets. Too bad Koreans are illiterate in kanji, otherwise they could read what's written on them.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

They're going to put a hotel on that rock?

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 a love hotel. with pictures from "Winter Sonata" on the walls, and Yon-sama goods for sale in the lobby forgot to say: main target are the Japanese tourists :)

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genjuro, no, you are full of imagination buddy boy. Japan had never had it and Japan will never have it. Japan still can't lose their imperialistic selfish ideas. BTW, Japan should and must return DaeMaDo(Tsushima) back to its rightful owner which is S.Korea as well. Japan is nothing more than a whining fool and a trouble maker in the east. Check this out: http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-takeshima-incident.html

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I think S. Korean people today should restore the balanced understanding of the political situations in the East Asia.

Takeshima/Dokdo won't go away. Japan won't take it in spite of her opinion about the territory.

Why S. Korean people benefit North Korean and PRC by worsening the Japan-Korea relation unnecessarily.

Calm down. The issue of Takeshima/Dodko is just one of many issues, and there are more important issue. Open your eyes, and restore your balance!

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Ecodrive, okay, so let's go to ICJ. Japan will follow their final decision, if any. Anyway, this is just one of many issues. It's very natural two adjacent states have such an conflicting issue. Calm down. Don't benefit the tyrant in the north.

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There is no way Korea would share the island with Japan. Sharing means giving up the control of neighboring water and air space. Would you share your backyard with your neighbor if he keeps on insisting on its ownership every year for the past 20 years?

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Insisting on its ownership is not a too bad thing. Japan won't attack Takeshima/Dokdo, anyway. Korea will continue controlling the island.

So, it's not a thing for S. Koreans to be over-heated and emotional. Calm down. Don't make the Japan-Korea relation worse, because it will benefit the bloody tyrant in the north only.

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Unnecessarily becoming emotional and over-react to this kind of issue is a typical symptom of immaturity. Both sides, calm down. Not to benefit the real tyrant in the north.

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genjuro, no, you are full of imagination buddy boy. Japan had never had it and Japan will never have it. Japan still can't lose their imperialistic selfish ideas. BTW, Japan should and must return DaeMaDo(Tsushima) back to its rightful owner which is S.Korea as well. Japan is nothing more than a whining fool and a trouble maker in the east. Check this out: http://www.dokdo-takeshima.com/dokdo-takeshima-incident.html

LOL Are you Steve Barber or one of his minions, who keep trying to prove those rocks belong to Korea but kept getting logically clobbered by Gerry Bevers et al? Nice way of putting in the pro-Korea website there, which is less detailed and doesn't even hold a candle to Gerry's blog. http://dokdo-or-takeshima.blogspot.com

So if you're so confident it belongs to Korea, then why not take it to ICJ? Scared? Koreans are such a bunch of wussies since they know the truth will be found out. If they're not afraid of the truth then let the Int'l courts decide. Unless, of course, you're afraid all those Korean Gov't propaganda and lies will be uncovered and Korea will lose even more face before the international community. What's the matter, scared of the TRUTH??

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Angry South Koreans have almost daily held protest rallies at the heavily-guarded Japanese embassy in Seoul, with some last week beheading live pheasants, Japan’s national bird.

Have to go with the sick and wrong folks here. This is cruel and ridiculous.

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No one in Japan is angry about S. Korean policies as well as their recent reaction to this issue. They are just embarrassed and disappointed.

On the issue, they have their own opinions not all of which match the government's official policy perfectly. Just that. Some of them may strongly agree with the government's policy about Takeshima, but others may not, and just that.

They are not angry at all. They are just sighing, seeing fanatic and unbalanced, excessively emotional reactions by S. Korean people. Then, they utter: "Oh, how do they cope with more important issues such as North Korean nuclear weapons?. . . ."

Calm down, please. Takeshima won't go away.

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The S. Koreans need to calm down already. Just the thought of beheading live pheasants gives everyone the image of a bunch of nasty savages. I don't see Japan doing any kind of protests, whatsoever.

The only ones further hurting the relationship are the S. Koreans.

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The real problem though is that Japan has never demonstrated the ability to work "with" it's Asian neighbours on any front. Japan appears selfish and immature when it digs its heels into minor riffs like this one. I mean really, does Japan see any value in these islands what-so-ever ???

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westurn,

"Japan appears selfish and immature when it digs its heels into minor riffs like this one."

So, which do you mean? Japan should have protected the island by using her army, when S. Korea started occupying and controlling the island? Or, you mean, Japan should stop insiting on her rights on the island?

You seem not to understand the long history of this dispute. See the following url: http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/takeshima/index.html

Also, Japan has proposed to discuss it at International Court of Justice in 1954. See the following: http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/takeshima/proposal.html

In spite of the long history of this disptute, Japan has not ever unecessarily enlarged this issue, not to make it affect larger, more important elements in the Japan-S.Korea relation.

Even if the Japanese government's policy about Takeshima is unchanged, there are different opnions among Japanese people. People think that the issue is just one issue, and should not affect the basic principle to build better relations with East Asian countries.

It's very natural that there are territory issues between the two adjacent countries. But it should not affect the entire direction of the relationship between the countries. This idea is commonly shared by many people as well as by the Japanese government.

People protesting against the Japanese embassy in Seoul should understand that such a protest is not necessary at all. It's nonsense. It's too emotional. It's too hasty. Japan won't attack Korea to recapture the island, because it's nonsense, illegal, impractical, and wasteful.

I believe Japan's colonialism was a failure, and injustice. However, today's S. Korean's reaction to this issue is eccentric. The true enemy is in North Korea that is oppressing people in North Korea. Why do you benefit the tyrant in North Korea by worsening the Japan-S.Korea relation? What are you thinking?

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Japan is not selfish and immature and does work with it's neighbors on issues. If you'll notice it's the SK folks that are running amok with protests about beef, islands, whatever.

It would seem that the SK government is trying to deflect publicity about the scandals there by whipping up nationalist fervor. One of the oldest tricks in the book. But they are the ones who are behaving immaturely and creating a crisis where there really isn't one.

BTW, if Japan shouldn't see any value in the islets what possible value should SK see, beyond an opportunity to deflect public scrutinty?

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The main reason why S. Korea refuses to discuss the issue at ICJ (International Court of Justice) is that the Syngman Rhee Line was totally irrational and unreasonable.

Yes, the Japanese colonialism and anexation of Korea by Japan was injustice totally. However, not all S. Korean assertions cannot be justified. Each issue needs verification and scrutiny.

If S. Korea does not agree with Japan's claim, she must agree to discuss it at ICJ, before occupying the island.

S. Korea's policy is a doble-tongue policy. On the one hand, they criticize Japan's bad conducts in the past, but on the other hand, they justify their irrational and inconsisting conducts such as occupation of the Takeshima island.

Let's go to ICJ! Japan will follow the final decision at the court! It's strange the state appeals to military force to occupy the island criticizes Japan's annexation of Korea in the past. Use your logics, instead of military force. Let's discuss at ICJ.

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BTW, the Treaty of Peace with Japan in 1951 doesn't say Japan must renounce the territory of Takeshima. There's no reason for S. Korean's continuing occupying Takeshima.

However, unlike S. Koeran protesters, we do not think the issue can heavily affect the Japan-Korea relation. The issue is just one of many issues. There are more important issues such as North Korean nuclear weapons.

S. Korean activists lack balance in viewing things happening in the world.

Calm down. Takeshima/Dodko won't go away.

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To refuse to settle the dispute before the IJC shows cowardice. To threaten military force on a country which is restrained from using military force to settle international disputes by it's own constitition is extreme cowardice. Killing animals in demonstrations is beyond cowardice, it's just sick and unnecessary. For all those telling "both sides to calm down" I suggest they open their eyes and see that Japan and it's people are about as calm as can be. Only in South Korea are they going off the deep end to the point of threatenig war and destabilizing peace in East Asia. To third parties these silly rocks don't warrant much attention. But South Korea's own one-sided behavior, by both it's people and government has really made the image of their country out to be barbaric, savage and uncivilized.

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"Japan is not selfish and immature and does work with it's neighbors on issues."

For example ? Last time I checked Japan had been asked to leave and not attend any further meetings concerning the biggest problem facing the region... North Korea ! Japan's selfish and myopic obsession with the abductees made it virtually impossible to make any progress whatsoever. Face it, whether it be island disputes with the Russians, Chinese, or now Koreans... Japan acts like a little kid who just got a toy taken away ! Whinin and blubberin with no real logical discussion taking place. Much like many of the trade disputes Japan has with one of its major trading partners the USA... makes no sense at all.

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Great idea. Build a small golf course too. They should start shipping land refill materials over from the mainland to expand the islands.

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"Japan acts like a little kid who just got a toy taken away ! Whinin and blubberin with no real logical discussion taking place."

Please tell the fanatic activists crying before the embassy of Japan in Seoul, of the meaning of the "logical discussion", and ask them why they are not "a little kid who just got a toy taken away".

Which side is more mature is very obvious. Calm down.

Yes, the voice of "Calm down" can be seen only from the Japan side. This proves the maturity.

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Fanatic nationalists on both sides cannot see the reality of the history. How good was Syngma Rhee, who gave S. Korean the tiny rocks of Takeshima? How really good he was?

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"Please tell the fanatic activists..." to not forget their paychecks to be picked up at the side window later in the day.

Cmon hermitage... activists get paid to act like a-holes ! We expect more from government officials ! Ooohhh, I can see this coming !

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No, thanks. Serious Japanese nationals are too busy to join the spree in Seoul. When the megalomaniac symptom in the Korean politics is remedied, we will talk with S. Korea again about more practical and valuable issues. See you then.

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To say briefly, many Japanese people are tired of hearing histerical voices of the people obsessed by megalomania again and again.

Japan wants its neighboring countries to be calm, well-balanced and practical, though there can be some differences in opinion.

Farewell to the hysteria.

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Many of my Korean students come over to Japan with a fixed image of how the Japanese are. They are quite disappointed to discover that most young Japanese don't fit their concepts, don't really care too much about Takeshima/Dokdo. In fact, many have never even heard of these islands which lie on the split in the continental shelf between Korea and Japan.

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Farewell to the hysteria.

and welcome to world class hotel. Hope wealthy japanese tourists will avail themselves of the latest facilities and enjoy their trip to Korean islets.

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This is getting funnier, I reccomend that the Japnese government send South Korea a bill for rent or property taxes for this hotel. By the way, as a message to Han Seung Soo, I think Korea is doing quite a bit more damage to "amicable realtions" with this move than Japan did by making a claim in a text book. It's time for Japan to take this to the UN.

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People have mentioned the protestors in South Korea beheading pheasants that's just another trick of the ultra natationalist nut jobs. Protestors threw sh*t at meat department workers at Lotte over the beef issue. Google Korean protests to understand why no matter what the issue I will always side with whoever opposes South Korea. The government of SK needs to reign in the protestors because they undermine any cause the government may be championing.

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usaexpat, Here's what you mean. Just the manner in which they protest gives you an idea of what kind of people Koreans are.

http://www.who-sucks.com/people/the-exciting-world-of-south-korean-protests

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In my opinion, persistent Conservative rules for the 50 years of Japan have yield a variety of unnecessary disputes, nearly militarized conflicts with many neighboring countries,including China, Russia, South Korea, North Korea, Singapore for the Sooking Massacre.

You have to keep in mind that Japan does not have any real or loyal friend in Asian region. Malaysia? Thailand? Not at all. How about the US? Well..

I sincerely hope that Japan, you young generations must focus on consolidating democracy in your country, rather than consuming illogical energy on international issues like territorial dispute.

According to Huntington, "Japan was universally and properly view as a democratic nation after WW II. Yet, it effectively never has had even one electoral turnover", which mean no consolidation of democracy. Japan is in the democratic transition.

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genjuro, thanks for the link, I had come across that at some point and that definitely supports what I was saying.

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"...Japan had been asked to leave and not attend any further meetings concerning the biggest problem facing the region... North Korea"

Uh, by NK. NK would like everybody to leave, just leave your economic aid behind to prop up the dear little pipsqueak.

Japan has worked with China to iron out issues with chemical toxis, with Thailand and Vietnam on building industry, with Oz about numerous issues (whaling aside) etc, etc. They have even worked with the SK on issues regarding trade.

Unlike what bibric says Japan has had a democratic switch in ruling party and the LDP keeps morphing into heaven knows what. It's not perfect but it's better than a lot of places. Also, the Japanese aren't putting much "illogical energy" into the issue, it's the Koreans who are doing this.

If the South Koreans would shut up and sit down the status quo of them "occupying" the islands would just continue. Instead they are turning themselves into the laughingstock of SE Asia. They look about as intellegent and honest as the Burmese junta right about now. Hey, let's kill a few more p(h)easants!

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bibric;

It's rather evident at this point that you are unable to justify South Korea's position or behavior and have resorted to bringing up WWII history as if it has anything really to do with with the Takeshima/Dokdo issue. Imperial Japan is dead and gone for over 60 years. I think that South Korea would be doing itself a great favor by not trying to act like Japan of 60 years ago, and try to act more like the Japan of today. I would say that Japan has far more friends, even those strategically enemies, than South Korea does.

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usaexpat, Don't mention it. It's just shocking and appalling what Koreans do when they protest. I'll just let the photos speak for themselves. We're in the 21st Century already, no?

Respect is earned. Korea hasn't earned it in the international community. And just from the way they act during protests, it's unlikely they will anytime soon. Koreans must be so proud of the image they're giving themselves. Korean pride! Fighting!

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Firstly, Hermitage, you are wrong, if Japan wished to use military force to retake takeshima they could do so legally, it would fall under the umbrella of being an internal issue, not an international one since Japan sees these islands as being Japanese. Such an idea is of course lunatic & would never happen. But from a Japanese perspective the islands are Japanese.

Something I would ask of anyone that knows better is just how free are the Korean media? Japan made one little comment about these islands in an educational guidance document about the ownership of the islands being in dispute & South Korea has gone totally crazy. The level of over reaction is insane, yet the Korean media seem to be going along with it.

Are the South Koreans so incredible sheep like that they are allowing themselves to be lead this way? Everyday this issue is getting bigger & bigger, but only is SK. Anybody looking at this issue from the outside is bewildered SKs reaction, it is totally out of proportion to anything that is happening in Japan, in fact next to nothing is happening in Japan.

Korea cannot & will not go before the international courts with their claim because they have nothing to support any claim & they know it. By staying away from the courts they can keep this insanity going as long as they wish, the courts would give a final settlement & that is something SK cannot afford to have happen, after all the false propaganda they have fed their own people about these island they would be seen by their own people to have “lost”. Tacky little politicians backed into a corner by their own lies.

It will be interesting to see who gets to build this hotel, which politician’s cousin, brother, uncle will get the contract? Business as usual in Korea.

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nipponlove, what Japanese aggression are you talking about? I don't recall any Japanese aggression. Also, protests are one thing. They happen all over the world. But there aren't too many where the behead pheasants as part of the protest. That type of "protest" is grotesque and immature. Trying to blame the behaviour of the Koreans on the Japanese is ridiculous! The fact that the Korean press is publishing this trash is a good indicator that the whole country is loving every minute.

For all of the faults of people and the Japanese in particular I haven't seen this kind of "protest" ever. It gives me pause every time I have to work with the local Korean contingent. I have to wonder "what on earth are these people thinking?" It's just really whacko strange. I've never had that problem in Japan or China. If I were in Korea now I would be keeping a low profile and looking for a way out.

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imagawa, it is always easier for a Japanese like youself to say, "Hey, be realistic and civil about it" to Koreans. Well it is not as simple as you think. Koreans will be doing just fine when Japanese people start minding their own business. Will Japan ever grow out of their self proclaimed highness that no one else gives a damn about? Not yet.

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As a Korean, I understand what and how you feel when you see this article. Yet, I was surprised that no Japanese one can speculate this article in a reasonable way.

You all think that this is an overreaction of the South Korean people in the propaganda, the lack of liberal media system, lack of respect to the International Community, or the lack of democratic behavior, etc.

Yet, I haven't seen any self-reflection in you all Japanese people on why the South Koreans are getting crazy on this "trivial Islands Dokdo".

I sincerely hope that you all have to spend several days or several months, several decades recommended doing a "self-reflection" on your own history and the consequence of your modern history against your neighboring countries. What would be the possible past memories of the people of your neighboring countries in the persistent and unstopable greed in your history?

It should be noted that Japan has violated numerous international treaties, conventions and the recommendations of international organizations, without taking any significant legal and moral responsibilities.

Your neighboring countries do not believe your ostensible allegation to bring any issue to the International Organization.

Finally, you, young generations of Japan must wake up, respecting your neighboring countries.
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The fact that the Koreans are using WWII as the reason for occupying Takeshima is hypocritical to the extreme. Just because the Imperial Army committed a lot of terrible crimes, forever shaming Japan, does not give the Koreans the right to steal land from Japan's post-war democratic gov't.

Westurn,

with some last week beheading live pheasants, Japan’s national bird.

This just proves how uncivilized the Koreans are when it comes to serious issues. The Japanese despite their faults have proven themselves to act with far more maturity when it comes to issues like this dispute.

Bibric,

As for Japanese conservative rule, better conservative rule than the lying, hypocrisy that is the Korean gov't. Conservatism is simply a political philosophy that values tradition, and careful, planned change and as a philosophy is neither good nor bad. Liberalism, in the non-Enlightenment definition is a political philosophy valuing more abrupt change. I don't think you understand the political spectrum well.

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Bibric

Respect is earned, not given & not demanded. Can you show in what way Korea has earned respect, not just from Japan but from any nation?

Nipponlove. “Will Japan ever grow out of their self proclaimed highness that no one else gives a damn about?”

From what I & the rest of the world are seeing at the moment might we not just change the word “Japan” in your sentence to “Korea” & have that very question far more meaningfully ask of you?

What is happening in Korea at the moment is totally stage managed by an insecure government & the Korean people are being blindly lead like sheep. Why? They are not a stupid people, & as a general principle I like & respect the Korean people, but not the people we are seeing behaving like lunatics.

Put the issue of the islands to one side & ask yourself why is Korea over-reacting to this degree at this time? Stop being a patriot & use your brian to look at this.

PS I am not Japanese.

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imagawa, the Korean gov is no more conspicuous than that of Japan. Korean gov is not riling up people at all by the fact. Your claim only reinforces your ignorance about Korean Gov and Japan's absurdity. Korea has a lot on their mind and igniting people's emotions against Japan is the last thing they want to promote. Some including you may say, Korean Gov. is trying to divert the attention from the anti US beef sentiment to anti Japan sentiment. That's a pure Japanese hogwash . Thanks to Japanese Gov. wise and timely anouncement on Dokdo claim, Korea now looks like an angry wasp nest. Imagawa, if you are really fair in this debate you should not be spreading your ignorance and twisted point of view.

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If SKorea goes ahead with plans to build on the rocks and populate them. I hope Japan puts SKorea on notice thaty it will be considered an invasion of Japanese territory and invokes the US-Japan mutual defense treaty. That'll really make us wonder about protecting you folks from your "brothers" up north. There's a point where if don't have the bite you need to stop barking.

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bibric, Thanks for the good comments. I am a Japanese, and unlike rightwingers that have upserged in recent years in Japan, I agree that Japan was responsible for many nasty bad conducts before and during WWII; conspiracies, murders, tortures, etc....

The bad, bureaucratic conservatism of the Japanese politics, as many here have pointed out, was not too bad, in the sense of war and peace. The government was not so adventurous to begin a war.

But how adventurous have other Asian countries been? Japan kept the peace in East Asia by not initiating any military action.

Was Syngman Rhee more peace-loving than the contemporary Japanese prime ministers? Are the South and North Korean governments more peace-loving than Japan today?

You should look at the reality of Japan today, not the illusion produced by your or your government.

<strong>Moderator: Please stay on topic. Your post should refer to the disputed islets.</strong>

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(sorry for the last too lengthy message).

OssanULTRA wrote:

invokes the US-Japan mutual defense treaty.

This doesn't work, as the U.S. today has a neutral policy about this dispute about the islets.

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hermitage True, the US does maintain a neutral policy as regards the dispute. But the dispute has not been aggravated to this extent before and I do however question if that dispute is raised to the level of an actual military engagement, whether said US policy can stand in light of treaty commitments. Certainly the treaty's value will be put to question, an issue which we (in the US) would not take very lightly.

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OssanULTRA,

Oh, it will destablize relations between Japan, the U.S. and S. Korea, and bring more uncertainty into the political scene, won't it?

As the Japan-U.S. alliance is designed basically to compete against the expansion of communist, anti-capitalist or autocratic nations, if it's applied to any other situations such as the possible (but not realistic) Japan-Korea conflict, there will be too much risk to the relations between all the interested nations as well as to the treaty system and the alliance themselves. Only North Korea, China and Russia will get some benefit from the uncertain situation in the alliance between the free democratic nations in East Asia, won't they?

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Cutting up pheasants ain't cool.

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I really think that S. Korean politicians and people should first look at the reality of Japan and her diplomatic policies. Japan has never used its military power to solve a problem since the end of WWII.

S. Korean people should stop enlarging the megalomaniac, subjective, unreasoned illusion about Japan today, and see what the Japanese government did about the dispute of Takeshima/Dodko. She has just mentioned her policy in a book. The policy is not new to S. Korea, because it is that which S. Korea refused to discuss at ICJ many decades ago.

Most Japanese people are tired of hearing the noisy voices of this kind of mass hysteria again and again. S. Korean people should understand that their over-reactions will make the Japanese opinions more and more conservative and narrow-minded. On both sides, people have to be indifferent to the reality, it's where fanatic nationalists come in, and making things worse and worse.

Calm down. This is what I want to say to South Koreans.

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takeshima isn't worth anything. it's piece of rock. just give it to the koreans, besides those poor pheasants lost their necks over this little rock. there are more important matters like the Asian Union (A.U.).

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hermitage, to be really truthful, Japanese would react the same way if they were in the same shoes of Koreans. It is quite clear and understandable why Koreans are so uneasy about Japan's move to brainwash kids. The result of years of their lies and historical distortions are clearly evident in the comments made by some of Japanese commentaters on this forum.

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The South Koreans obviously don't want these islands. They are going about it totally the wrong way if they do.

Many Japanese tell me they would be just as happy giving up their claim to the islands if it would really help relations. All Korea has to do is ask nicely. As it is, however, that is definitely not happening. The Koreans must know how stubborn the Japanese can be if you keep pushing them and pushing them. This recent decision over the hotel seems reckless and designed to annoy. In for a penny, in for a pound. We know subconsciously that what we are doing is illegal under international law, but we've come this far, so let's push it some more...

My impression is that South Korea wants to wake up their old enemy and have a good fight on modern terms. Who are they really trying to impress, though? North Korea?

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nipponlove,

I agree today's rightwingers and nationalists in Japan are busy in justifying what Japan did in the past. And, I believe most of what they say are wrong or misleading, about the most basic negative side of Japan's conducts in the past. And, I can understand why Koreans get angry at those historical revisionists in Japan.

And yet, even S. Koreans cannot erase the history of what Syngman Rhee, selfish dictator in S. Korea did arbitrarily in the past, as Japaneses cannot erase its dark history in the first half of the 20th century.

Regarding this issue of Takeshima/Dokdo, Syngman Rhee played the central role. So, Japan proposed to discuss the issue at ICJ, but they refused it, long ago.

I agree it's rightful for S. Koreans to criticize Japan's bad conducts, invasion and annexation before/during WWII. If so, S. Koreans also should have the chance of looking back her dark history in the 1940s-70s.

Since the end of WWII, better or worse, Japan has not had the opportunity to be brutal and committed military actions, while Korea and China were so aggressive, having initiated cruel wars in Asia.

Look at the reality of today's Japan, and youre vision about 20th-21st century history will restore a good balance.

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Ossan: "If SKorea goes ahead with plans to build on the rocks and populate them. I hope Japan puts SKorea on notice thaty it will be considered an invasion of Japanese territory and invokes the US-Japan mutual defense treaty. That'll really make us wonder about protecting you folks from your "brothers" up north. There's a point where if don't have the bite you need to stop barking."

The only one who needs to stop barking is you. The US would NEVER defend Japan if they took up some kind of military or THREATENED military stance on Dokdo/Takeshima. On the contrary, the US installations and presence in SKorea are FAR more important to them politically (while perhaps not strategically) than the bases in Japan. In either case, there's no way in hell they would want to endanger either, and would put extreme political pressure on Japan to 'end the issue' in a peaceful manner.

Republico: "The fact that the Koreans are using WWII as the reason for occupying Takeshima is hypocritical to the extreme. Just because the Imperial Army committed a lot of terrible crimes, forever shaming Japan, does not give the Koreans the right to steal land from Japan's post-war democratic gov't."

Don't be foolish! The Japanese government STOLE THE ISLANDS from SKorea during colonization; and THAT'S a fact! To try and twist it to say Koreans are trying to steal the islands is not only illogical, but simply an absurd way of trying to twist said fact. As has been stated by other posters, Japan has quite a history of ignoring international treaties and pulling the kind of politics it has that LED to this move by SKorea.

In other words, Japan made a bad move, and SKorea is upping the ante. Good for SKorea. I hope it deploys a number of war ships as it builds the hotel.... we all know that when it comes to binding together as a nation, SKorea has got it while the Japanese tend to fester in apathy. The US won't get involved except to say it's not getting involved and hopes the issue will be solved bilaterally (again, that is to say, it's bases in both countries are too important for it to take a side).

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takeshima isn't worth anything. it's piece of rock. just give it to the koreans

Taebe, surely it has fishing rights, minerals, possibly natural gas and military "worth". Worth having. I can see good reason why neither country wants to "give" it to the other.

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Why are so many South Koreans getting crazier to the the Japanese allegation on it?

This small, rock islands have symbolic significance of "Japanese relentless aggression toward Asian countries" carried out in the beginning of 1900s. In particular, the small islands, Dokdo, always reminds all the Koreans, including North Koreans, of the Japanese annexation to South Korea in 1910.

The Japanese brutal aggression toward its neighboring countries started with declaring that this island, Dokdo, belonged to Japan in 1905.

In short, looking at the endless Japanese greed on the territory, the Koreans and other Asian countries think that the Japanese people have not given up any greedy intension to invade its neighboring countries. All your neighboring countries people, including Chinese, Russians, Taiwanese, Vietnamese, Singaporeans, Thai, Indonesians, Myanmar,and Koreans, Americans, Dutches, Canadians, Australians, British, etc, who suffered the grave historical injustices committed by Japan,are cautiously looking at the Japanese greed now.

Don't you think how absurd it is to allege the right of the Islands with the fact of the 1905 declaration on the Islands while the Islands belong to Korea for several thousands years?

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hermitage;

SKorea, if they follow through with their claims will be destabilizing that relationship. If they don't, there will be no need. The threat of affecting US-Skorea relations alone may be sufficient to get SKorea to calm down. As you correctly point out, the US-Jpn treaty is based on the concept that whoever is America's enemy is Japan's enemy, and for the most part, even post cold-war, that is true. But with sufficient questioning on both sides of the Pacific as to the actual value of the treaty today, a scenario where a foreign power invades/occupies any territory that Japan considers it's own and the US ignores is going to cause very serious bilateral problems for the US-Jpn alliance. This alone is sufficient reason for Washington to play a greater role in putting this dispute to bed.

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Smith your bias towards Korea as usual blinds you from real issues. The US would never be involved in any dispute militarily between SKOrea and Japan because it would never happen. For the reasons already explained to hermitage, it would upset US intersts in the region to an unacceptable level. Hence, the US would put extreme diplomatic pressure on Skorea to stop this nonsense. How can the US put "extemene pressure" on Japan when it is SKOrea that continues to refuse to settle before the ICJ? Japan has been trying to settle this in a peaceful manner since 1952 and SKorea has continued to act in a belligerent uncooperative way resorting to seizure and fanaticism. And YOU suppport this. Your claims that Japan "stole" these islands are nonsense, amd SKorea's evasion of going before the ICJ is proof of this. If their claims are as right as they say theu are they would have no hesitation to put this matter to rest. As to your irrelevant claims about the the value of US troops in SKorea compared to Japan, Skorea is a tripwire, Japan is a permanent aircraft carrier.

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1) Those who say that Japan would react the same if Korea did what Japan is doing... Korea IS doing what Japan is doing - they are both claiming a piece of territory that the other thinks is theirs. Takeshima is just like Okinawa to the Japanese government, just like Dokdo is Jeju to many Koreans. What BOTH sides need to do is acknowledge that the dispute exists and de-escalate.

2) Takeshima was not taken by force, and not taken during the colonization of Korea. It was taken prior to that. The excuse many Koreans make for not resisting is saying that Korea at that time was already so undermined and weakened that it was unable to stand up for itself and protest and it would of were it able. But facts remain, whatever the internal situation of Korea in 1904, it was still a sovereign independent country (not under Japanese colonization) and it made no complaint when Japan formally annexed Takeshima.

3) The island was not "returned to Korea" after WWII. All of Korea's territories were liberated by the US and Russia. The US used Takeshima as a bombing range, and it always sought the permission of Japan for doing so. Korean protesters at the US use of the island as a bombing range were accidentally killed by the US - which was blamed on the US and Japan for ignoring Korea's sovereignty and those people became seen as martyrs.

4) The only country to have exercised force or acted aggressively over Takeshima at any time in history was Korea in 1952 when it deployed paratroopers ("police") on the rocks while their status was still under dispute.

5) Contrast Korea's handling of Dokdo and Japan's handling of the Senkakus. Japan keeps people off those rocks, including Japanese right wingers - it actively tries to de-escalate the dispute. Imagine of the SDF put paratroopers and a hotel on them - all the needless aggravation. Korea should be following Japan's example, acknowledge the dispute and get people off the rocks.

6) The reaction to all this has been hysterical as usual. Unfortunately, instead of setting themselves on fire and lopping their own body parts off, right wingers have taken to displays of animal abuse in front of the embassy in Seoul, all for a teacher's guide that mentions in the context of saying there is a dispute, what Japan's position on Takeshima is; http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=isNiMhNMHU8

7) As usual, this dispute is pure hysteria - schoolchildren being egged on to draw anti-Japanese nationalist propaganda, cutting of school ties, riots and property damage. Not all Koreans are like this, but those that are need to grow up. Both sides have a "right" to be angry, but fortunately many on both sides exercise better self control.

Finally, still credit to president Lee - he told his cabinet not to exploit the issue, which they certainly could do, and Roh would have done. Fortunately for him, there are enough nationalist scumbags in his country to get upset and take the heat off him for the beef issue.

Rather than escalating provocation on the Korean side (what the Japanese government did with its teaching guides was not provocation, building a hotel is), both sides should be stepping back and looking at how this can be used to foster friendship and cooperation - why not allow visa free access and tourism from people from both countries, and make the waters around it a joint economic zone? Or if their claim is so solid, go to international arbitration and be done with it. This is just childish and pointless.

Peace

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Bibric;

"This small, rock islands have symbolic significance of "Japanese relentless aggression toward Asian countries" carried out in the beginning of 1900s."

Total garbage. Most people in China, the PI, Singapore who really suffered at the hands of Japan's imperial aggression 60-70 years ago have no idea where these silly rocks are and probably couldn't care less. These rocks have symbolic significance only to Koreans.

"The Japanese brutal aggression toward its neighboring countries started with declaring that this island, Dokdo, belonged to Japan in 1905."

Total garbage. Japan acquired Taiwan by defeating the Qing dynasty in the Sino-Japanese War of 1894.

"Don't you think how absurd it is to allege the right of the Islands with the fact of the 1905 declaration on the Islands while the Islands belong to Korea for several thousands years?"

Total garbage. If this were true SKorea would be the first to settle the matter before the ICJ and make Japan shut up. BTW, all the countries you listed are looking at SKorea unwilling to go before the ICJ. What kind of impression do you think SKorea is giving of itself to other nations?

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OssanULTRA

Take a look at yourself, your logic, and your history.

You people and your history always struggle to justify your greed, territorial disputes, disguising it with fake document or illogical allegation.

You are acting exactly the same as your latest ancestors did. No country, in particular your neighboring countries, believes the Japanese allegation complying with the rules and principles of the IGOs since the Japan has violated many international treaties, conventions, and resolutions made by the IGOs.

Are you really willing to comply with the resolutions of the ICJ?

If so, first send the World Community your willingness to do it by implementing all the resolutions suggested by the UN, the ICJ, the ILO,and other regional conferences and 1993 Vienna conference, 1995 Beijing international conferences, 2000 International conferences, and others.

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bibric I am American. But I'll leave that aside for now: "You people and your history always struggle to justify your greed, territorial disputes, disguising it with fake document or illogical allegation."

Then SKorea should take it to the ICJ and present the evidence to support such claims.

"You are acting exactly the same as your latest ancestors did. No country, in particular your neighboring countries, believes the Japanese allegation complying with the rules and principles of the IGOs since the Japan has violated many international treaties, conventions, and resolutions made by the IGOs."

Whether Japan complies or ignores findings of international forums is irrevelant to the question of why SKOrea continues to refuse to settle before the ICJ. Bad mouthing Japan is not going to change that fact.

"Are you really willing to comply with the resolutions of the ICJ?"

CJ finding are not binding. In other words, SKorea has nothing to lose strategically by going to the ICJ. What SKorea does have to lose is that in such a forum it will become exposed that SKOrea does not have any real evidence to support it's claims and arguments.

"If so, first send the World Community your willingness to do it by implementing all the resolutions suggested by the UN, the ICJ, the ILO,and other regional conferences and 1993 Vienna conference, 1995 Beijing international conferences, 2000 International conferences, and others."

What rubbish. Japan is willing to go tho he ICJ on the Takeshima/Dokodo issue. They have been willing since 1952. SKOrea has continued to refuse. Japan does not have to do anything, it is up to SKorea is if has any honor at all as a country, to settle this in the ICJ rather than simply acting like hysterical maniacs.

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OssanULTRA

Japan has an inconsistent position on the territorial disputes with its neighboring countries.

Why is the Japanese government reluctant to bring the Sengaku islands in question with Taiwan and China, or 4 islands with Russia to the ICJ ?

Dokdo is the one that was restored as Korea restoring its independence, there is no need or reason to bring it to the ICJ.

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Bibric

The Senkakus or the Northern Islands have nothing to do with Takeshima/Dokdo. Theyt do not concern SKOrea and I might add, that none of those other involved nations, China, Taiwan Russia behave in such a bent-out-of-shape manner as Skorea. Also, you are very much mistaken if you think that Takeshima/Doko was returned to ROK (By the US/Allies) at the time of ROK independence. AS to the relevant dispute here, it appears that cooler heads in SKOrea are prevailing: "SEOUL, KOREA: South Korea’s defence Minister Lee Sang-hee Monday (21 July) shrugged off calls send Marines to defend Dokdo from Japan." http://www.mysinchew.com/node/14104

If SKOrea really wants to put an end to this issue either they are going to have to go to the ICJ in order to completely win world opinon, or consider a joint-administration of these islands. In truth the latter would provide the basis of a long term SKorea-Jpn relationship based on cooperation.

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bibric, If China or Taiwan brings the Senkaku issue to ICJ, I think it is possible that Japan will agree to do it. It's one possible approach. Thanks.

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OssanULTRA

In my opinion, japan and you take really inconsistent policies, inconsistent logic, and inconsistent examples with your neighboring countries. In short, Japan and you are really unpredictable.

In international community, unpredictability does make any sense! You do not have any idea of your own government full of the ULTRA CONS.

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It seems Korean people forget that Takeshima/Dokdo is currently controlled by South Korea, regardless of Japan's own opinion that has been expressed for many decades.

Also, it's clear that Japan has no power and legitimacy to recapture the island by force.

Linking the Japan's claim about Takeshima/Dokdo to her will to invade Korea again is totally nonsense. Associating it to the Japanese imperialism in the past and its revival is also totally nonsense.

S. Koreans should calm down. Such over-reactions will benefit North Korea only. The protecting the freedom and democracy, which S. Koreans have established through struggles for decades should be more important.

Calm down. Over-reactions will damage the general interest of both S. Korea and Japan. Of course, I agree that Japan also should not instigate people to stick to the issue unnecessarily.

Peace of mind. Peace in Asia.

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bibric - do you accept that Dokdo is disputed?

This whole dispute is a result of the Korean government run nationalist education system teaching Koreans that these rocks are the birthplace of Japanese aggression in Asia and need to be defended. This latest flare up is about Japanese teachers teaching that the islands are disputed and what the Japanese position is. I am not under any kind of impression that Korean schools teach that Dokdo is "disputed" and that Japan has any kind of legitimate position. That is why these people get so hysterical - because they do not know ALL the facts about Dokdo.

Japanese are not well informed about Takeshima, but I think that Japanese understand Korea's position better than Koreans understand Japan's position. And that makes people in Japan, ignorant as they are, better informed about Dokdo than people in Korea are. A real shame - this is a pointless dispute.

Peace

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hermitage Thanks for your critical and insightful analysis on this issue, taking into account several crucial circumstantials factors. Yet,the current popular upsurge manifests the unique Korean perception on the territorial dispute with other countries, in particular Japan, in the historical context.

Japanese always put themselves in the same process and strategy for invading Korea. In 1390s, Japan started to invade Korea, by requesting Korea to open the the road for the Japanese army. The beginning is quite absurd and illogical. And then, they employ the refusal of their request as the political pretext of invading Korea.

Before invading Kroea in 1910, Japan declared Dokdo belongs to Japan in 1905.

Koreans are well cautious of any Japanese illogical request like Dokdo issue.

Thanks.

Hikozaemon

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Hikozaemon

I really hope that the Japanese populars are well educated in her history,thereby can construct a communicative history with her neighboring countries.

Yet, the serious problem is predominance of Japanese Cons over the Japanese politics. The Japanese civil society is so vulnerable and weak in democratic participation. Of course, I know that some Japanese professors acknowledge that Dokdo belongs to South Korea, not Japan.

Yet, the Ultracons led Japanese politics have caused endless problems in North East Asia. Territorial disputes are common and constant measure to attract Japanese Cons. The current South Korean Ultra Cons, also use this Dokdo issue to avoid its difficulty in some domestic issues.

In short, the Koreans Cons and Japanese may have "some conspiracies" on this issue. Japan must develop the Liberal Democracy, oriented to the Left.
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Bibric;

There is nothing inconsistent about wanting to settle a dispute through peaceful means in an international forum. In fact, there is nothing inconsistent in SKorea's belligerent attitude or it's fear of going before the ICJ either. But SKOrea will have to live with the image it projects of itself to the world. It's regretable that your responses seem to have deteriorated into rantings which make little sense in putting forth SKorea's argument.

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The "Economist" has a piece on their website regarding the protests in Korea over beef and how the government is handling them. They conclude with this paragraph:

"Challenges have mounted on other fronts. On July 14th Japan announced new, more nationalistic guidelines for school textbooks about how to deal with the matter of the Dokdo islands (Takeshima in Japanese), a pathetic parcel of rocks which have been Korean-controlled since the second world war but which Japan claims it incorporated in 1905—po-facedly glossing over the small matter of forcing Korea to become a protectorate that year too. Neither Mr Lee nor Japan’s prime minister, Yasuo Fukuda, want to make a big fuss of the textbook nonsense, but neither can be seen to look soft. South Korea’s ambassador to Japan has been recalled; protests at Japan’s embassy in Seoul continue; South Korea has rebuffed an offer of talks."

The "Economist," 22 July 2008, web site posting

That's a pretty good summary.

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OssanULTRA

The reason why South Korea does not have any intention to go to the ICJ is that the Dokdo issue is not a disputable one with any country.

In addition, the South Koreans have a long standing and deep rooted distrust and disbelief on the Japanese tactics, in particular Japanese Cons.The Japanese Coms. do not have any concept of "Justice" to the significant extent that they can comply with the principles and norms basing the IGOs. The Japanese Cons. only view the international community in order to take advantage of other small and weak countries and numerous innocent countries.
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Bibric;

"The reason why South Korea does not have any intention to go to the ICJ is that the Dokdo issue is not a disputable one with any country."

Ownership of these rocks is not only disputable, it is currently under dispute. If SKorea maintains a "deep rooted mistrust" of Japan as you say, then it is all the more in SKorea's favor to settle the dispute before disinterested third parties such as the ICJ. If SKorea believes that International forums such as the ICJ are designed to "take adbantage of the smaller and weaker countries" then I'd have to conclude that Skorea as a nation suffers from paranoia, not just towards Japan but the rest of the world.

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meh

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Bibric

I gave up on you yesterday because you seemed to be going around & around in circles, as you still seem to be.

Answer this; do you believe 100% that these islands belong to Skorea?

If you have just answered “yes” as I am sure you have

Can you prove this?

If you have again answered “yes” as I am sure you have.

Why do YOU personally believe your government will not take this issue to ICJ?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

This dispute is called a "dispute", because Japan and Korea have different views to the issue.

But such a difference is common, between two adjacent nations, isn't it? It may be natural that there can be many differences and conflicting issues between two nations.

Also, it's known that Japan cannot legally recapture the island, because the island is currently controlled by S. Korea, and Japan's constitution restrics her use of military force very strictly. It's impossible to have any evil intention of recapturing the island, nor re-invading or re-annexing S. Korean controlled areas today and in future.

This means that this "dispute" is just a difference of opinion between the two nations.

The recent reactions by the S. Korean government and people look to be over-reactions. They are depicting the "difference" as serious menace from Japan. But such menace doesn't exist really. It's an illusion and a showy political propaganda. Calm down. Look at the reality, not the fiction.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Also, it's known that Japan cannot legally recapture the island, because the island is currently controlled by S. Korea, and Japan's constitution restrics her use of military force very strictly.

I don't know about this. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I think Japan would ever try to retake them by force, but if you read that territory as belonging to Japan, and then assert that it has been illegally occupied by South Korea, then technically, Japan would merely be repelling invaders from their territory. As such, I don't see it as being against the Constitution. Don't think it would ever happen like I said, just not illegal.

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Hermitage and OssanULTRA,

I feel for both of you because both of you are killing yourselves trying to actually use logic and rational sense when discussing an issue with a Korean such as bibric or ecodrive. I have learned the hard way after many years of experience in Korea dealing with the Korean "mind" that trying to adopt the use of logic and rational debate when discussing matters with Koreans is almost impossible.

I hate to say it but it's like trying to explain to a child over and over again that Superman does not exist. With matters such as Dokdo/Takeshima, no matter how much amount of evidence and intellectual debate or emperical evidence you place in front of them, Koreans will refuse to accept, let alone even listen, to any opposing argument. The reason? Because in Korea, the concept of a person having an opinion that goes against the common government sponsored propaganda, xenophobic, racist, nationalist line of brainwashing does not exist and cannot be comprehended by the Korean mind.

For example, I have heard supposedly "educated" Koreans tell me that Hangeul is the world's most "scientifically advanced and intellectually superior" writing system. Of course for most people in first world, modern and intellectually progressive nations, anyone who said something so stupid and foolish as this claim would be taken as a fool. However, in Korea, pretty much the entire population actually believes this to be fact! I am not kidding you. And when you ask them to please explain and prove WHY this outrageous claim is true, Koreans will just answer "Because, we know it is true!"

If you come back and say that such a bold claim is very disputable since the Roman and Greek alphabets as well as the Arabic or Japanese writing systems could also disputably be the world's most scientifically advanced writing systems, Koreans will answer that there is no dispute at all. In fact, for a Korean, if a Korean side of an argument exists, then there is no dispute at all. Basically, their premise is that "Everything that we Koreans learn is the holy gospel and anything that foreigners say that disagrees with us is hogwash and is not worth hearing." I am not exaggerating even one bit. Thus, you can see what you are up against when you try to use a western or modern first-world approach at discussing Dokdo with a Korean. It's like trying to convince a child that the tooth fairy doesn't exist while he/she covers his/her years and humming a song, refusing to listen to the wise words of an adult.

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imagawa

Sorry for the late response. I would have to answer "why not ICJ". My answer is straightforward. Because in the modern history, Japan haven't shown consistency on dealing with the international organizations such as the UN, ILO, and ICJ.

When I answer like this, some Japanese people may think that it is very hard and difficult to discuss with Koreans on some issue, in particular history related issue with Japan or China.

In my opinion, Koreans may view "historical events or facts" in the "context". For example, an event, in particular historical, does not emerge without "any hidden intention or plot."

What is a scientific analysis? The scientific knowledge is based on "regularity" (consistency) of phenomena or behavior, social or natural. In developing our scientific knowledge, the most important thing is how to find and interpret the "fact". Yet, the "fact" is quite "theory-laden". That is, the fact is dependent on our argument, the theory.

Some Japanese people employ very limited fact, limited historical fact of Dakescima from 1905 to 1945. Koreans use the historical fact of Dokdo for several thousands (from ancient period to 2008). Which fact would be convincing in terms of regularity or consistency? Think about it!

Many Koreans are attempting to think in the way of this scientific common language.
-1 ( +0 / -1 )

"Koreans use the historical fact of Dokdo for several thousands (from ancient period to 2008). Which fact would be convincing in terms of regularity or consistency? Think about it!"

Then SKorea should not be afraid to go to the IJC and present this "fact". Yes?

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Bibric

Sorry, I have had work to do & couldn't get back to you.

My reply is much the same as OssanULTA's & it fits perfectly with your own stated reasoning. If as you say you (the Korea people) are basing what you believe on nothong other than pure facts then you have no reason not to get a third party involved to validate what you are saying on an international stage & in so doing you would be making it impossible for Japan or anybody else to argue against you. By not going before the IJC you are leaving yourself open to the claim that you fear you might lose & if that is the truth then you are undermining your own arguement that you are only acting on a pure fact. Because if YOU doubt yourself you cannot expect others to not also doubt your claim to the islands. If you really believe what you are saying you can only expect to get credibilty by proving what you say & that can only be done on a public stage before an univolved third party. If anything it is what you should want, saying no to this is what creates the doubts in others.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Dear all, One interesting solution to this issue: Known facts:

S. Korea's and Japan's opinions are completely different. S. Korea refused to discuss it at ICJ. The Japanese constitution prohibits her to solve any diplomatic issues by military action. Compared to the strong reactions by S. Korean people, Japanese people are less interested in this issue. Everyone in Japan knows it can be solved in near future.

Based on these, one possible solution is to propose:

Both Japan and S. Korea stop inisting on their right about the island. Japan will pay all the cost to redevelop the island, opening ports, airport, apparatus for fishing, tele-communication, eletric power plants, etc. Costs other than the infrastructure will be paid by both parties. Both Japan and S. Korea will collaborate to build a town for tourism and fishing. The town will be regarded as a S. Korean town according to S. Korean admistrative law. The town will be regarded as a Japanese town according to S. Korean administrative law. Japan and S. Korea will sign a special tax treaty to avoid double taxation from the islanders. (A resident can choose to which government they pay the tax). Also, another treaty to suppress military actions around the area by both nations and to guarantee the security of fishermen and transportation in the area.

This will work, without damaging any of Japan's and Korean's claims.

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Oh, "5. Everyone in Japa knows it cannot be solved in near future" is correct.

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*imagawa*OssanULTRA First, as I said, "context" is critical in bringing to the ICJ. Given the irresponsibility of Japan in the word community for a century, no one can believe that Japan may comply with the decisions made by any other IGOs, including the ICJ. This kind of tactics is a deep-rooted one of Japan. Again, no one wants to be deceived by the Japanese "allegation" with the 1905 declaration.

Accordingly, South Koreans are not afraid, but feel useless to discuss this issue with Japan in the mediation of any third party.

Second, the territorial issue is an indisputable one for the possessor.

OssanULTRA

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hermitage I hope that someday the two countries have some agreements on this issue like what you suggested. Your story is quite witty.

I would like to deliver another solution for this issue.

Many Koreans contend that "Tsushima" and "Oki" islands belong to Korea. The other day, the head of a major Korean Buddhist denominator suggested to the Korean Prime Minister that Korean government must request the Japanese government to return the two islands, "Tsushima" and "Oki" to Korea.

Yesterday, 50 South Korean lawmakers proposed that the South Korean should request Japan to return the two islands. They argued that historically, those two islands belong to Korea.

The territorial conflict made by Japan is getting more intense and widespread, yielding another counter-territorial request for Korea.

I sincerely hope that North Korea would not be involved in this territorial issue, Dokdo.

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bibric,

"Second, the territorial issue is an indisputable one for the possessor."

Ha, ha, ha. This is just nonsense. If there's someone (even only one in the world) who disputes it, it's disputable for anyone. Even if someone can say "it's indisputable", it is just a sheer false statement. Ha, ha, ha. This is the very obvious truth. Etymologically, the word "dispute" meant "contending with words". So, if one does not regard it as a dispute, if the opponent regards it as a dipute, it can be a dispute, which is disputable. Anyone can see this simple logic.

Also, I think your saying "the territorial issue is an indisputable one for the possessor" can be associated to the very imperialistic, colonicalistic assertions typically done by Japan in the 1930s and early 40s. I know S. Korean military force is protecting the Takeshima area today to control the area. On the one hand, S. Korean people criticizes severely Japan's invasiona nd annexation of Korea in the past. I can understand their criticisms and anti-Japan sentiment, because I know Japan in those days was a terrible autocratic regime.

But on the other hand, S. Korean people base their opinion about Takeshima on a very violent, militaristic principle: "the territorial issue is an indisputable one for the possessor."

Isn't this a terrible contradiction? Why don't they understand why I say they should calm down anyway. Or, S. Korean people wants to invade Japan, to satisfy their naive sentiment? Still they want to criticize Japan's bad conducts in the past. It's incredible. S. Korean people, you should have a good logic and a good eye to look at the reality, not any illusion about Japan.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Sorry, "the territorial conflict made by Japan is getting more intense and widespread, yielding another counter-territorial request from Korea".

0 ( +0 / -0 )

For thousands of years both Japanese and Korean fishing vessels have caught fish around these islands.

Not possible now, because K nets cover the sea floor in all the best spots around the islands, and J boats are not allowed to approach anyway.

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hermitage

Excellent point! You got it! Now, you have many disputed territories, including "Oki" and "Tsushima", and your Emperor's territories since some people contend those territories belong to Korea.

Your logic is really wonderful one! Someday, Tokyo could be brought to the ICJ. Thanks for your point!
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biblic,

"the territorial conflict made by Japan is getting more intense and widespread, yielding another counter-territorial request from Korea".

So, the issue is disputed, and disputable, as I wrote. I am happy to know that you chose to widthdraw the previous old-Japanese-militant-like, imperialistic, arbitrary and selfish statement.

I know it's hard to solve the issue soon. So, I'm proposing we should calm down. Today's S. Korean reactions meke me fee as if Japan's battleships are approaching Takeshima and S. Korea to re-annex S. Korea and recaputure the island. But in reality, such a thing has never occured. Why do S. Korean people instigate the people unnecessary? For the President to distract criticisms against his political ability to foreign Japan?

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hermitage

Why do S. Korean people instigate the people unnecessary?

Again,as I said, in the historical "context".

0 ( +0 / -0 )

hermitage

I think that now you can feel the Korean outrage over the Japanese allegation on Dokdoshima.

You are getting upset, upset, upset...Ha Ha Ha...

0 ( +0 / -0 )

hermitage

It's like neck-to-neck or eye-to-eye solution in the Bible, as if relentless retaliation on "911" is on the American invasion to Afghanistan and Iraq.

Neighboring countries are tired and exhausted with the endless trouble maker, the Japanese cons.

Now, they are preparing some effective leverage, like counter neck or eye.

Ha, Ha, Ha, .... Anyway, hermitage, I know your understanding and humor. Bye.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

No fool will ever come to your terms no matter what your compelling arguments may be.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

South Korea knows that it would lose if it went before the courts & THAT is the ONLY reason they never will go to court.

I will not waste any more time

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Yes, I understand that Japan is not in a position to decide what the S. Korean government do. It's their freedom. Do they dispatch corps to the island? Do they build a hotel on the island for the tourism of excited patriotic people from all over Korea? Everything is at the S. Korean government's disposal. It's their freedom. But I recommend them not to lose money.

I guess the Japanese government will just write her official opinion about the issue in some documents or guidebooks, textbooks, etc. They won't move any one of their navy ships, until S. Korea introduces visible imbalance of power in the area. It's not just peaceful but cost-effective, isn't it? It's nonsense to spend money of Japanese taxpayers for the illusionary military tension.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Bibric;

"OssanULTRA* First, as I said, "context" is critical in bringing to the ICJ. Given the irresponsibility of Japan in the word community for a century, no one can believe that Japan may comply with the decisions made by any other IGOs, including the ICJ. This kind of tactics is a deep-rooted one of Japan. Again, no one wants to be deceived by the Japanese "allegation" with the 1905 declaration."

Japan's history with international rulings, regardless what they may or may not be, are irrelevant. Just like Imperial Japan's history prior to 1945 are irrelevant to the question of why SKOrea refuses to settle before the ICJ.

"Accordingly, South Koreans are not afraid, but feel useless to discuss this issue with Japan in the mediation of any third party."

No I think they are afraid. If they really had confidence in all the "evidence" and "historical proof" as they always claim, they would be the first to end this matter and make Japan shut up about these rocks. Don't you personally believe that SKorea would win?

"Second, the territorial issue is an indisputable one for the possessor."

It's already under dispute. SKorea is simply too cowardly to resolve it in a peaceful mature manner.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Everyone should understand that territorial conflicts cannot be so easily solved. And there's no possibility of Japan's using her military force to solve this problem (though S. Korea has already used her military force to control the island). For Japan, doing it will just increase tension and only damage her economical and social conditions, and the Japanese Constitution prohibits such a method. So, it's not necessary for anyone to over-react. Rather trying to solve the global warming will be much more effective for both countries. Don't you think so?

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imagawa

Apology for your feeling insulted on any point in what I have said. We're just individuals having no such a influential power on the Government power. Have a pleasant weekend!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Again, let's see the historical context. Koreans and other your neighboring countries see this issue as a "Japanese colonial legacy".

Everybody in the current generation may think along with "rationality", "interest", "reasoning", "international law", "shared principles", "norms", and "common sense".

Those values are really important criteria to judge what the right and wrong are.

Yet, those are just a blind eye unless those values are based on "identity", our root of being human derived from consistency on our historical past.

Today, the South Korean government turned out to be really ridiculous on dealing with the international issue. it's too myopic. Cons in any country do not have any human face idea and ideology. I know that Japan has made the same mistake as well.

I hope "nanko10" could go fishing in Dokdo someday and I could visit the tempel in Tsushima and Oki to pray for the world peace. Just put all things down and suit yourself.

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Biblic,

Conflicts are unavoidable between two adjacent nations. I think Korea has had conflicts not only with Japan but with China, Russia, North Korea, etc. Japan has not only been a violent colonialist against Asian countries, but has had other conflicts and battles with the U.S., Russia and other Western countries since the middle of the 19th century.

And today in our East Asian region, it's not sensible to fight each other. It's a waste of life, money and time. Japan has learned that war costs too much, though it may bring a short-time wealth and fragile leadership. Did Japan moved its navy ships to "Dokdo"? No, she just wrote her opinion that has long been told to the Korean government since the 1950s. I know the historical context that you mean. Japan has annexed Korea and exploited her people before and during WWII.

But the sixty years of our history after WWII are also Japan's history. Whyd don't you look at it? Japan has not only nasty and dark history, but at least peaceful, if not better, history as well. As S. Korean people tend to ignore this simple historical fact after WWII, they look emotionally over-reacting to any trifle behaviors of Japan.

But you are right. We should go to mountains in Korea or Japan, and along the river, sing songs, dance, enjoy drinking! Isn't it the ideal scene that Chinese, Korean and Japanese people have dreamed for more than one thousand centuries?

Let's do it, everywhere. That's far better than your/our getting angry with fierce faces.

Have a good weekend.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

A difficult one. There are always some unclarities over borders and territory. Where there's also bitterness over the mutual past, these can quickly erupt into bitter disputes. In this case, one government is in denial over the past and goes to great lengths trying to teach it's people to be in denial too (in many ways less than successful though). The other people find it difficult to forgive. Both tendencies constantly add fuel to the fire on both sides. But from the outside, the sad feeling is that both sides are wrong and no one is right. These kinds of conflict are pointless. Perhaps there is some value to the islands. But there is more value for both sides in harmony, harmony being something different than 'friendship on our/their terms'. I hope both sides find a way out of this. There won't be war over this, but it's not even worth sacrificing what hope of friendship there may be...

0 ( +0 / -0 )

One idealistic solution is that both Japan and Korea will form a new nation called "Take-Dok Island Republic" which is a special free-trade district with facilities for fishing, tourism and gambling. Fifty percents of the Diet members are Korean or Japanese, and vice versa. :-)

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bibric

Again, let's see the historical context. Koreans and other your neighboring countries see this issue as a "Japanese colonial legacy".

Takeshima issue is not a colonial legacy. No country ever occupied or ruled the islets before 1905.

According to Mr. Gerry Bevers http://www.occidentalism.org/?p=670

In 1946, one year after Korea was liberated from Japan, Korean geographer and historian Choi Nam-seon wrote a book entitled, “Common Questions and Answers about Joseon” (朝鮮常識問答), which was designed to teach newly liberated Koreans various facts about their country, including its history, culture, and geography. In the geography section of the book, Mr Choi wrote the following:

Question: Where are the farthest north, south, east, west boundaries of our country?”

Answer: “If islands are included, the fartest eastern point is Jukdo, in Ulleung County of North Gyeongsang Province.

Two years later he published another book entitled, “General Knowledge about Joseon” (朝鮮常識), in which he also said that Korea’s easternmost boundary was at an east longitude of 130 degrees, 56 minutes, 23 seconds and that Ulleungdo’s neighboring island of Jukdo was Korea’s easternmost point. Again, even in 1948, Korean geography books were saying that Dokdo (Liancourt Rocks) was outside Korea’s territorial boundary since Dokdo was located much farther east at a longitude of 131 degrees, 52 minutes.

Wherever the islet called Seokdo 石島 that was mentioned in the Korean Imperial Edict of 1900 was meant to be located, it does not seem the islet was Dokdo, since there should be no Korean territories to the east of Jukdo. So it's not a legacy of annexation but a dispute over the determination of territories in a modern sense that started after the WW2, most probably in 1950's. Will Korea ever recognize this fact? The real historical contex. Otherwise no solution to the issue will be possibly realized.

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Seiharinokaze Thank you for your detailed information. Yet, Jukdo that Choi mentioned indicates "Dokdo" as of the current years. The maps was made by Japan, in 1930. http://enjoyjapan.naver.com/tbbs/read.php?board_id=phistory&nid=108084

Bring a Japanese Academic historian's argument! Do not bring some rumors or allegation!

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Seihrinokaze, if you are in the same shoes of SK. How would you react to Japan's claim on Dokdo in their textbook fabrication? I would like to hear your unbias answer to this question.

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Bibric.

Thank you for the apology. I'm sorry that I over reacted in relation to you personally. I found that I was being deleted so often that I was losing track of what I had & hadn't said. T

I still believe that you are avoiding a simple way of dealing with the island problem, if you are as confident of your position as you say then you have no reason for not going before an international court. Your arguements against this are so thin that I have to believe that you are not confident or that you have some other not stated reasons for avoiding court. I am not Japanese as I have already told you, but I openly admit that I do side with Japan on this issue because all historical evidence points to Japan being in the right. This is not because I am being anti-Korean, because I am not anti-Korean. If I believed you were in the right I would back you that.

Perhaps what is more important here is something that Rekishika touched on above. Whatever the value to anybody of these islands a fight over them between Japan & Korea is really stupid, for both of them. So much more is going to be lost & for so little. There is so much that the two countries share & so much more that they could go on to share & all this stands to be lost over these islands. They are not worth that to either country. Outsiders like Rekishika & myself, plus many others can see this, you are holding your national pride too close & losing sight of what you stand to lose. The very idea that your two countries could come to blows over these islands is madness. Would you personally be comfortable with the idea that people, Japanese or Korean, might die for these islands?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Hi all, btw, how long are you going to discuss this issue. It's clear that the Japanese and Korean governments have different views to this issue. The important point is that the dispute is just that. No war is approaching at all. No real menace exists. Also, in spite of the different government policies. People in both countries don't have to support their government policies. Why do they? I intended to make it clear just that the difference exists and that S. Koreans reactions are excessive. However, I never let everyone to support the Japanese policy. It's your freedom whether you follow which policy. Also, you don't need to follow any of the two government policies. You should have your own.

My point of insisting on the necessity of everyone's calming down is not just based on my subjective view from Japan, but on the fact that we should be free in supporting which standpoints on the issue.

Nationalism is, however reasonable in the relations between nations, not necessary and necessarily desirable, in the contexts of each individual's decisions and judgements about issues, including this.

It's nonsense to criticize each other, representing one's nation. It's the governement's business, not yours.

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Hermitage.

you are an idealist living in a black & white world & I sort of respect you that. But I do think you are setting your self up for disapointments. Getting any Japanese & Korean to agree about anything is beginning to feel as though it might be impossible. And that is so sad.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Imagawa-san,

There are many other issues with which both Koreans and Japaneses can agree. But there are many other conflicting issues. But it's natural. One thing important is that we should not unnecessarily make it over-heated. I wish Korean people to calm down, and trying to closely, objectively, looking at historical facts, not biased by ready-made prejudices and propaganda. I wish Japanese people to have a good balance in evaluating and criticizing what Japan has done in the past. Trying to extract good things only, or bad things only from her history will fail, and lead to a misconception that mislead opinions.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

bibric

What kind of relation did Choi Nam-seon's book have with the map at all? Why are they displayed together again?

The map on enjoyjapan.naver.com was probably not the one drawn up or reflecting the situation around 1930. Please look at the wording on the right side of the map that reads 明治三十七八年戦役 meaning the war of 1904-5. Perhaps it's a map prepared for military use at the time of the Russo-Japanese War or some other purpose to explain the war. The war broke out in February 1904 and Takeshima was incorporated into Shimane prefecture one year later in January 1905. So nothing wrong with the islets not being shown yet as part of Japanese territory. Besides how could Japan have made a map in 1930 that showed the islets not belonging to Japan when it had been administratively incorporated into Shimane for decades? Do you seriously pick up the map as any counter evidence?

As for the description in Choi's book 朝鮮常識問答 :

極東 東経一三〇度 五六分 二三秒 慶尚北道 鬱陵島 竹島

It describes the easternmost boundary of Korea. It is at an east longitude of 130 degrees, 56 minutes, 23 seconds and it is Jukdo, the neighboring island of Ulleungdo. Jukdo described as 竹島 in there is not Takeshima as you might insinuate because it's written in the same Kanji in Japanese. It's Jukdo, the nearby islet to the east of Ulleungdo at the above location. Takeshima/Dokdo is located much farther east at a longitude of 131 degrees, 52 minutes, which of course the author didn't mention in his book because the islet was not considered as part of Korean territories.

nipponlove:

Your question is incomprehensible. Let me know how Japan's claim on Takeshima could be a textbook fabrication?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Good for South Korea. If Japan's going to up the ante, why not reciprocate???

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Korea just discovers a Japanese old document(朝鮮國略圖)from 19th century depicting Dokdo belonging to Korea.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

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