Spiraling F-35 costs have Japan, other potential customers worried

Do not buy it until they come up with solutions for oxgen problem. The AF F35 pilots were in the 60 minutes whistle blowing a huge oxgen deficiency while flying. The Pentagon are denying, but there will be more pilots are coming forward to testify in the congress.

Pilots worry about F-35 oxygen system

http://warnewsupdates.blogspot.com/2012/05/f-35-oxygen-system-problems.html - 81k

John McCain is against it, and he was a combat pilot in Vietnam. He should know.

What a boondoggle! The military-industrial complex is exemplified by the F35, in its inefficiency, mismanagement, and utter waste. Governments make ridiculous contracts (with tax-"payer" monies) that no one in their right mind would make with their own money.

Japan and Israel are not part of the F-35’s international consortium, but have signed up as customers.

So if you are just customers and not partners stop whining and buy a different aircraft. Its not like you have paid out tens of millions on development like other nations. Sheez

Cletus, it's not that simple as buy another aircraft. Japan is tied to US equipment, which of course is the best in the world, but this time there are some problems. And it may be expensive. But inferior European equipment is not a choice for Japan. We live in an actual danger zone and we need the best equipment.

What is the point of building the new F35 when the future air wars and ground attack aircraft are all going to be drones, completely pilotless other than a controller with a gameboy screen half a world away. Governments should be channeling money into new developments to make the earth a better place to live not to wage war!

Hôjô Sôun

Cletus, it's not that simple as buy another aircraft. Japan is tied to US equipment, which of course is the best in the world, but this time there are some problems.

Hojo, that is nonesense. Japan chooses to be tied to US equipment in some cases you actually operate a bit of non US (European) equipment and also home built modifications. So that is false that you are tied to US equipment. Also other nations that have strong US ties and forces stationed on their soil are not using purely US equipment and they do not have problems. You choose to be purely aligned to the US for equipment and that is a political decision and nothing more.

And it may be expensive. But inferior European equipment is not a choice for Japan. We live in an actual danger zone and we need the best equipment.

MMM lets see there is very good European equipment that other nations in dangerous areas choose. The French Rafale (just chosen buy India, Qatar, UAE, Kuwait). The Typhoon used by Saudi Arabia and many others. Both are quality aircraft, then there are other US aircraft like the Super Hornet, not to mention the newer versions of the F-15E that have been chosen by your near neighbours.

Yes the F-35 MAY and thats a big MAY be a great plane but whats better 1 potentially great plane or 10 really good ones because the way costs are going you wont be able to afford that many whereas you could afford losts more combat proven tried and tested aircraft over one thats untested and may or may not be as good as they say.

It's a lemon! Every country has concers about it. Too expensive and frankly just does not deliver.

Super hornet has a very limited operational area and ordinance load F1-11 is still a superior aircraft.

japan will need the f-35. with so many hostile neighbors, japan needs every edge she can get .

Why will Japan need the F-35 so badly and who exactly are these hostile neighbours that you speak of. China??? South Korea??? Russia??? Really guys do you think any of these nations will go to war with Japan. If China did you would need many more than a poultry 30-40 F-35s to stop them. As mentioned before you are gambling on an expensive untried troubled aircraft when there are many very good tried and tested aircraft out there that will do the job and allow you to buy more for the same price....

Cost overruns are par for the course for any U.S. military development program.

Contractors go in with a 'cheap' bid to win the contract, and then due to standard incompetence, "design flaws" and other lame excuses milk the taxpayer for as much as they can possibly get.

The best gigs are the ones where production is spread to as many states as possible to maximize harm should a program ever - God forbid - be cancelled.

Anyone who is surprised at this latest cost overrun probably needs to pay more attention.

Japan will most likely sign an agreement with the US (Lockheed Martin) for the procurement of 42 F45's in late June.

End this nightmare already. There are planes available now that meet the specifications, cost a fraction of this and most importanyl have a known price tag. (And two engines.... it is friggin unbelievable that an island nation wants to buy military planes to fly over oceans with only one engine.)

Don't buy it until you test drive it. It's that simple!

I knew the JASDF should have gone for the Euro-Fighter... at least they have seen operations over Libya at the hands of the RAF.

As Rogerrabbit says, we should be putting our money to positive, peaceful pursuits. Not going along with the psychotic paranoia that the U.S.A. seems to be stuck in.

How about using the money to discover a new energy source, for example?

The arms race doesn't work. It bankrupted the USSR and it's bankrupting the U.S.A.

London also reversed itself last week and renewed a plan to buy the short take-off, vertical landing version of the plane, the F-35B, instead of the conventional model, the F-35C, which the government said was plagued by unacceptable costs and delays.

Complete rubbish. The reason for the turnaround was that the costs of installing catapults on the Royal Navy carriers had near quadrupled.

London also reversed itself last week and renewed a plan to buy the short take-off, vertical landing version of the plane, the F-35B, instead of the conventional model, the F-35C, which the government said was plagued by unacceptable costs and delays. Complete rubbish. The reason for the turnaround was that the costs of installing catapults on the Royal Navy carriers had near quadrupled.

AND unacceptable delays and rising costs with the actual aircraft. The angled deck on one meant the other carrier had to be built but never used. A Harrier type allows for a smaller deck-space and could effectively mean that the second carrier could be commissioned when built. Emphasis on COULD.

The Royal Navy hasn't used US aircraft since the Phantom was phased out (the Harrier FRS2 was a BAE/MDD joint project)... they should have never have sold off the Harriers.

Star-viking

Complete rubbish. The reason for the turnaround was that the costs of installing catapults on the Royal Navy carriers had near quadrupled.

And that is what happens when you design and start building a vessel and then part way through change your plans and redesign major components of the vessel.

Listen,. I do not understand Japanese bloggers trying to make simple stories very complicated. as always. It has nothing to do with price, mismanagement, and all other reasons listed above.

F35 is a LEMON! Pilots almost pass out while flying due to oxygen deficiency. A mechanical problem. That's simple!

"Japan and Israel are not part of the F-35’s international consortium, but have signed up as customers."

The article writer does not mention that Israel´s military was vehemently opposed to ordering this turkey. The Israeli government was bullied, pressured, bribed, and blackmailed into that. Hillary flew to Tel Aviv just for that purpose. The Israeli order is purely political and nothing else.

I suspect a similar situation in Japan.

It was a great idea for a plane that turned out very badly. The whole program needs to be scrapped before more money is spent. "Joint aircraft" programs do not work due to all of the in-fighting and wrangling between services.

I hear the Japanese ASDF wants to buy 42 of them, which, including training costs, would cost 800 billion yen. They don't have anywhere near that much to spend on this.

I hate to say this but my beloved country has forgotten the lessons that were learned in WW 2. That lesson is how the Nazi's had far superior tanks, planes, and personal weapons than the allies, but their equipment was to complex to be effective on the battlefield. Complex designs that were mechanically unreliable and difficult to repair in the field. The allies had weak tanks but for every 1 Tiger tank, the allies fielded 100 Shermans. America now seems to think that technology will solve all the military's problems, when all it really does is make it more difficult to maintain operational readiness. The defence industry in America has too much influence on politics, and we get overly complicated aircraft and other vehicles for a conventional war that looks more and more unlikely in the future. Japan, get out of this debacle now before your air force becomes techno-dependent like America.

The F35 program has suffered "feature-creep" from the very beginning. It started with the decision to make three different versions that use markedly different methods of leaving the ground and returning to the ground. Even if a country has decided they only want ONE of the versions (Japan, for example), they have to suffer the additional delays involved with the other two versions. I've got to agree with the foreign countries. The F35 program is in serious trouble and may never come to fruition in today's global economy.

More complicated they make things, the more likely they will have problems and have higher costs.

They should hold the ones who quote price A, to do the contract at price A or risk losing the contract for false pricing.

An over cost of 50 % would be annoying but over costs of well over 100 %

They should be telling the ones that their over costs should be born by them as they had made the error in their quotes.

Then ones quoting for future contracts will give more correct costs and the tax payers will not have to bear the contractors mistakes.

Or their undercutting prices used to get the contracts before they hike the prices up due to some (claimed) unforseen thing.

Boy the war machine is getting hungrier and hungrier...

What is the point of building the new F35 when the future air wars and ground attack aircraft are all going to be drones, completely pilotless other than a controller with a gameboy screen half a world away.

because it keeps the military industries moving and more money into their coffers. just like u.s. needs to create "enemies" to justify their huge military spending (more than the rest of the world combined).

Why will Japan need the F-35 so badly and who exactly are these hostile neighbours that you speak of. China??? South Korea??? Russia??? Really guys do you think any of these nations will go to war with Japan. If China did you would need many more than a poultry 30-40 F-35s to stop them. As mentioned before you are gambling on an expensive untried troubled aircraft when there are many very good tried and tested aircraft out there that will do the job and allow you to buy more for the same price....

yup, exactly. honestly, if china or russia really wanted to attack/take over japan, do you think anything would stop them...short of a direct u.s. involvement? but, if it goes to that, then we're not talking about planes but nukes.

Global watcher Listen,. I do not understand Japanese bloggers trying to make simple stories very complicated. as always. It has nothing to do with price, mismanagement, and all other reasons listed above.

F35 is a LEMON! Pilots almost pass out while flying due to oxygen deficiency. A mechanical problem. That's simple!

Before you make any comments you should get your facts straight instead of giving the forum MISINFORMATION!! Its not the "F-35" that is causing pilots to pass out it is the F-22!! Which makes your name less global!!! Or should I say misinformed

Global watcher Listen,. I do not understand Japanese bloggers trying to make simple stories very complicated. as always. It has nothing to do with price, mismanagement, and all other reasons listed above.

F35 is a LEMON! Pilots almost pass out while flying due to oxygen deficiency. A mechanical problem. That's simple!

Before you make any comments you should get your facts straight instead of giving the forum MISINFORMATION!! Its not the "F-35" that is causing pilots to pass out it is the F-22!! Which makes your name less global!!! Or should I say misinformed

@kaimycahlMay. 14, 2012 - 11:07PM JST

Apparently, you are in Japan while I am in the States. We have watched the popular TV program "60 Minutes" on CBS last Sunday to watch the two pilots whistle blowing testimony how it is. I am correct on this. You are not yet informed.

Umm... kaimycahl is correct. The pilots on 60 Minutes were former F-22 pilots, not F-35 pilots.

F-22 pilots Josh Wilson and Jeremy Gordon were on CBS' 60 Minutes May 6 explaining why they've opted out of flying the Air Force fighter.

(Source: http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-05-06/news/31591560_1_f-22-hypoxia-pilots )

@Fadamor and kaimycah

Please read what I have posted.

Pilots worry about F-35 oxygen system

http://warnewsupdates.blogspot.com/2012/05/f-35-oxygen-system-problems.html - 81k

I posted a link about the 60 Minutes story you said backed up your claim (but instead refuted it), and you post a link to a blog that contains this little tidbit of common sense in a comment:

Once (if) the F-35 ever makes it into operational service, we will know more about this issue with on-board-oxygen-generating-systems (OBOGS). With that, we can't assume that there are OBOGS problems with the F-35 just because the F-22 has those kind of problems.

(Source: http://www.calgarysun.com/2012/05/11/pilots-worry-about-f-35-oxygen-system#comment-526866323 )

You're not doing too well in backing up your claim that the F-35 "pilots almost pass out while flying due to oxygen deficiency." You're taking a charge about another plane (the F-22), extrapolating it to a different plane (the F-35), then trying to present it as a fact. Your credibility is taking a huge hit here. Better quit while you're behind.

@Fadamor and kaimycah,

The key issue is listed below and needs to be fixed.

Lockheed Martin, which makes the F-22 as well as the F-35, plans to use the same oxygen system in both planes

You're not doing too well in backing up your claim that the F-35 "pilots almost pass out while flying due to oxygen >>deficiency." You're taking a charge about another plane (the F-22), extrapolating it to a different plane (the F-35), >>then trying to present it as a fact. Your credibility is taking a huge hit here. Better quit while you're behind.

@Fadamor, I am telling you the truth, nothing but truth. More pilots will testify against Lockheed and the Pentagon. They are denying everything.

Before making a quick judgement over others, please read and watch the whole story.

I guess I should point out that the guy who made that comment above is an ardent critic of the F-35 program, not a supporter, and even HE points out that you can't assume B is going to happen just because it happened in A.

The key issue is listed below and needs to be fixed.

No, the key issue is that you made a claim that has been proven patently false. I find NO reports that F-35 pilots have reported hypoxia symptoms. F-22 pilots, sure (in fact there have been 11 more hypoxia reports after the crash that made those two pilots on "60 Minutes" step down from the program), but nothing from the F-35 program. The link to the blog you provided only says that unnamed F-35 pilots are worried that there MAY be a problem. At no time does the blog or the articles the blog reference claim that F-35 pilots have suffered hypoxia due to their OBOGS.

No, the key issue is that you made a claim that has been proven patently false. I find NO reports that F-35 pilots have reported hypoxia symptoms

Exactly. That's what Lockeed and the Pentagon say.

These pilots did not step down from the program. Actually, they are taking risks to speak up the truth. These pilots have a lot to lose to tell the truth. The matter is which story do you believe? The Pentagon and Lockheed or the pilots? You are the judge.

@Fadamor, I forgot to add before closing on this topic you do not seem to understand by making a quick judgement about my honest posts.

I want my beloved country USA to suceed on this project.

Lockheed Martin, which makes the F-22 as well as the F-35, plans to use the same oxygen system in both planes

Has anybody ever seen a big military contract that didn't run way over cost? I would like to see this project succeed but Lockheed-Martian has to have a responsibility to the bottom line as well.

These pilots did not step down from the program. Actually, they are taking risks to speak up the truth. These pilots have a lot to lose to tell the truth.

If you are an F-22 pilot and you refuse to fly the plane, you have stepped down from where the program needed you and are now sitting at a desk. You are a waste of government money. Therefore, you will be re-assigned somewhere where you will NOT be a waste of government money. I see them being assigned to fly planes they aren't scared of flying - maybe single-engine trainers. Bottom line is they effectively removed themselves from the F-22 program.

The matter is which story do you believe? The Pentagon and Lockheed or the pilots? You are the judge.

I suppose it hasn't occured to you that they're BOTH being truthful? The pilots say there's a hypoxia problem and the Pentagon says there have been multiple reports of hypoxia from pilots of the F-22, but the cause has not been pinpointed yet. So... Lockheed and the Pentagon are being transparent about the hypoxia problems in the highly classified F-22, but are hiding it in the less classified F-35?

If I'm going to judge, I'm judging that conspiracy theorists will always find a way to spin something to make it look like there's a cover-up.

@Fadamor, power always win. The case closed.

Frustrating to read about the F-22 problems. The hornet and superhhornet community continues to battle a rash of hypoxia issues, many of them "unexplained" which results in lower confidence of those of us flying them. Frankly, they never had an issue in LOX models, and only have had issues with OBOGS. The system has proven to be unreliable. There should not be incidents happening on a monthly basis or more. With that being the case, obviously there are major design/implementation flaws. At the least, oxygen monitors should immediately be implemented since the onboard monitors have failed in several cases or simply don't show when there is a problem.

gelendestrasse:

" Has anybody ever seen a big military contract that didn't run way over cost? "

They usually run over cost, but if they do to this degree they should (and are often) be cancelled. This thing is already multiple times over budget, and there is no end in sight. Nobody has any idea about the final cost (or even if they get it to work at all). All we know is that the final price tag (in the event they do get it to work) will be a multiple of the current price again.

This is patently ridiculous. Alas, it often happens when the politicos give the engineers an impossible task, i.e. to design something does everything for everybody. They wanted to save money by combining all sorts of different tasks into one machine, what they get is an overpriced Turkey that does nothing well.

Recommended reading:

http://www.economist.com/node/21553064

Recommended reading:

http://www.economist.com/node/21553064

Thanks, johninnaha. I have just read it, but it did not mention the mechanical problem at all.

Recommended reading from me is: http://warnewsupdates.

I fly over North Korea on my flight simulator game and land in the corn fields because of fuel shortages. First of all, I would buy the F-35 B. If I was to go back to the last time Japan had to make a decision in the defense department level, It would be the late 1940's. With that kind of money flying around; build an aircraft carrier. The programs look good on paper. I will not get to exited about the cost. If I lived in the East and had all the chronic health issues known mostly to that region; I would buy the easiest aircraft to fly and maintain. I would buy some of those F- 18Gs' and some deep strike aircraft that can fly high and fast. The threat seems to be on the ground, the sea and in the air. I would buy the best ground movers that met my previous standards.

CletusMay. 14, 2012 - 09:01PM JST

And that is what happens when you design and start building a vessel and then part way through change your plans and redesign major components of the vessel.

Actually, I misremembered the fact given for the switch back to the F-35B - it's the US Electromagnetic Catapult which has increased massively in price. The UK CVF carriers were designed to accommodate either catapults or vertical landing. My bad.

whats the point? japan already has a couple of US bases. why waste money when ur never going to use it?

US Secretary of Defense has just sgned to restrict F22 flying yesterday 5/15 excluding F35 while Lockheed Martin, which makes the F-22 as well as the F-35 plans to use the same oxygen system. Very interesting.

You keep mentioning the important word then acting like it's not there: PLANS to use the same system in the F-35... as in "it's not being used yet." Just keep on trying to insist that anything that happens on an F-22 automatically happens on an F-35 and we'll keep snickering at you. One last time... and F-22 is NOT an F-35 and vice versa. NOW the case is closed.

Fadamor, you still do not read the whole report on the 60 minutes. F22 and F35 use the same oxygen system.

Fadamor, the US Defense is ordering a backup oxygen system to F22 to help support the mechanical failue just in case, so they may do the same for F35. We will see. FYI.