Taiwan urges Japan to apologize over sex slaves

Must be election season, does no good if Japan apologizes. It is never accepted and as soon as there is a new election.

Again?

But in remarks in 2007 that triggered a region-wide uproar, then Japanese prime minister Shinzo Abe said there was no evidence that Japan directly forced women to work as sex slaves.

And we want this guy back?

Japan really isn't understanding that this shift to the right and all these guys calling to make Japan's military stronger and the like isn't sitting well with the rest of Asia.

And Yuri, indeed, it IS election season. In Japan. Perhaps if Japan ever actually gave a heartfelt apology and students learned about all the atrocities Japan committed during the war, countries wouldn't continuously be asking for more?

And once again, you bring up the US in something that isn't about the US. You just don't get it, do you? And IF you want to bring that up, how many rapes in Japan by Japanese?

This is getting old.

I'm sorry. Okay? Now, can we get on with our lives?

“I feel that such an apology and compensation can sometimes be (most powerful).”

No more apologies, and absolutely no compensation. Let the apology deniers eat cake.

This is all just a Japan bashing conspiracy made up by China and Korea. /sarcasm

When will Japan stop denying and come clean? The rest of the world is waiting.

The rest of the world is waiting.

No...the rest of the world is not waiting. Only those who want to use this issue to gain an advantage over Japan or simply for the pleasure of bashing Japan 70 years after the war. The rest of the world has their own problematic histories to worry about.

No...the rest of the world is not waiting. Only those who want to use this issue to gain an advantage over Japan or simply for the pleasure of bashing Japan 70 years after the war. The rest of the world has their own problematic histories to worry about.

Ok. Now can the Japanese people stop denying war atrocities committed by Japan?

This is important, because LDP is talking about "taking back education" and "patriotic (read: nationalist) education" and all that, which pretty much means denying and glorifying Japan's imperial past. That must be stopped, for even Japan's own good.

No...the rest of the world is not waiting. Only those who want to use this issue to gain an advantage over Japan or simply for the pleasure of bashing Japan 70 years after the war. The rest of the world has their own problematic histories to worry about.

Well said. You have to understand there are only about three or four countries in the apology deniers atlas.

Only those who want to use this issue to gain an advantage over Japan or simply for the pleasure of bashing Japan 70 years after the war.

Why don't you get that they are "bashing Japan" only because Japan is in denial? After all people don't bash Germany for how they dealt with their history. Maybe, just maybe people will stop "bashing Japan" if it came clean? And maybe it'll even gain some respect? Does it even benefit Japan to deny their past and deny their citizens of knowing the truth about their own government? Why is the Japanese government treating their own citizens like children?

Ok. Now can the Japanese people stop denying war atrocities committed by Japan?

You just won't quit, will you. How many Japanese people being asked to apologize today had the slightest thing to do with anything 70 years ago, much less war atrocities? No nation, including the wonderful US or Britain, has a history that its people want to revisit. Japan's 6 decades of peaceful co-existence with other nations, in comparison to America's almost constant war, is proof enough that the Japanese have moved on from that past in a responsible manner. Furthermore, these constant complaints and attacks on the current generations of Japanese do nothing but cause resentment and a move toward nationalism for some.

Why don't you get that they are "bashing Japan" only because Japan is in denial?

Who do you represent? What has Japan done to you that requires you to constantly complain about the people? What do you get from it?

hidingout,

You really need to learn what the words apology & sincere mean, sincerely..................ah forget it you'll never understand

That must be stopped, for even Japan's own good.

I dare say no one in Japan has asked your opinion about what is in "Japan's own good." What hubris.

Thomas it is an unpleasant part of Japans history. Very few Japanese will deny it but we do not live it. It was the sins of our ancestors and not ours. What we can do is make sure it does not happen again.

You really need to learn what the words apology & sincere mean, sincerely..................ah forget it you'll never understand

You need to learn two things; that you are not qualified to judge the sincerity of others, and that the rabble rousing of an insignificant minority doesn't negate the words spoken by the dozen PMs that have already apologized.

And meanwhile we have one of the worlds biggest deniers of HISTORY leading the ldp!

Thats seriously WRONG, but SO very common in Japan, gee no wonder their mealy mouthed "apologies" never take hold, DUH!!

tmarie.....

Perhaps if Japan ever actually gave a heartfelt apology...

"chief Japanese government spokesman Yohei Kono apologized to former comfort women and acknowledged Japan’s involvement in causing their suffering."

Failed logic there, clearly they have apologized and it went unrecognized. It doesn't matter how many times Japan apologizes, because if someone new comes along to inflame their anger then it's the same shit all over again.

Thomas it is an unpleasant part of Japans history.

Ok so just because it's unpleasant and it makes the Japanese people feel bad, the history as it happened should be denied? That is really awesome, why don't we do the same for everything else? Oh, we already do... Denying the history just because it makes you feel bad is because really really egocentric and selfish. What about the victims of the Japanese Empire? Do they not deserve justice in your view?

Very few Japanese will deny it but we do not live it. It was the sins of our ancestors and not ours. What we can do is make sure it does not happen again.

Look at the posts, most of you are in denial. You are in denial. Most Japanese people that I talk to are in denial. Maybe not in full denial, but it will make them uncomfortable and they won't talk much about it. They don't really know much about their own history as much as they should. Most people from other countries know more about Japan's war history than the Japanese themselves.

What I'm saying is that Japan should know their own history as it happened. There's no shame in that.

You need to look at these issues from a common sense point of view

What is the common sense of badgering the great grandchildren of wartime Japanese about the sins of their forefathers? Should we demand that you apologize because of the acts of your great grandfather? Where does it stop?

Ok here is part of the problem;

There are few Japanese, if any, left alive today with any direct knowledge of the sex slave issue. Also any records from what I understand, from the era, regarding the procurement of the women that were enslaved have all been destroyed, leaving no "proof" from the Japanese point of view. That along with the institutional belief by many it seems in the government that many if not most of the women who were "camp followers" were professional prostitutes earning tons of money, and doing it voluntarily. Families sold their daughters into slavery at the time because of ungodly conditions brought on by the war (Japan).

The government set up a third party organization to pay compensation to any of the women, and that group disbanded years ago, with few women taking the money because it wasn't an official government group and no direct apology was given to them. Many felt it seems that they were selling out if they took the money and it appears that most just want official recognition from the Japanese government that their suffering was real. Most dont need or want the money, they are all elderly and dying.

What Japan is doing is waiting them out plain and simple, and for that ALL JAPANESE PEOPLE should be ashamed.

MEXT also HAS to change school history curriculum with regards to all issues surround WWII, and do it while there are still people alive today from that era who will finally know peace in realizing their goal of a truly open and honest apology with meaning from Japan.

Most Japanese people that I talk to are in denial. Maybe not in full denial, but it will make them uncomfortable and they won't talk much about it.

Why would any Japanese want to talk to you about it? Given your tone here, it is likely you would simply use the conversation to condemn them and the rest of the Japanese people.

dafuq?! can't get over about something that happened even before he was born? get a life.

MEXT also HAS to change school history curriculum with regards to all issues surround WWII, and do it while there are still people alive today from that era who will finally know peace in realizing their goal of a truly open and honest apology with meaning from Japan.

Every nation controls the content of its education system. There are many truths about the war that Americans do not know because it would shine a bad light on America's hero FDR. And while this is not good for anyone, it is not for foreigners to point this out about Japan without showing the context of their own nation. Show some balance if you want respect for your opinion about Japan.

If it weren't so hypocritical of me, I'd say Taiwan should accept of the many apologies Japan has offered and call it a day.

But then again, I've got countrymen who still talk in earnest about the South rising again, so I'm not going to point any fingers until I clean up my own backyard.

Hayden Wellstone Dec. 10, 2012 - 08:40AM JST

Thank you. No nation is guilt-free. That said, war is made by politicians and fought by men and women indoctrinated in extreme nationalism. It makes no sense for a man to give up his life for his nation in imperialistic ventures and can only be accomplished by propaganda, something that all nations governments have done and continue to do. If you want to solve this, make politicians fight their own wars unless the barbarians are truly at the gate. Refuse to die for politicians and corporations.

Blah, blah, blah. Apologies have been given several times over. Move on already.

Denying war atrocities, not dealing with its own history and being forever fearful of militarizing will not benefit Japan...

LOL. Go to any site in America with a story about Pearl Harbor and read the comments. You might learn something about this so-called taboo.

Right, because that is on the exact same ballpark as high-ranking officials denying war atrocities.

China is desperately trying to keep the WWII issues alive as they prefer not to see a more assertive, much less a re-armed Japan as it would be an obstruction to their territorial and strategic goals.And the Ma administration is in Beijing's pocket. Recently a Chinese PLA General giving a speech in Australia spoke of the "Japanese fascists" bombing Darwin in WWII to the disgust of the Australian audience. China seems to forget that 5 years after WWII ended Chinese troops killed Australians on the Korean Peninsula. Harping on WWII issues against Japan is now openly a part of the media war that China is conducting. But as I've said many times before, Imperial Japan's acts prior to 1945 DO NOT JUSTIFY China's acts today. And harping on Japanese "Right-Wing" is both stupid and hypocritical as it is China's own behavior that is increasing nationalism in Japan, and China itself is ENTIRELY right-wing. If we can call it that since they aren't allowed to have more than one government party.

"The Philippines would strongly support a rearmed Japan shorn of its pacifist constitution as a counterweight to the growing military assertiveness of China, according to the Philippine ­foreign minister"

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/250430bc-41ba-11e2-a8c3-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2EbJeVTCM

Right, because that is on the exact same ballpark as high-ranking officials denying war atrocities.

And yet you condemn the average Japanese who doesn't want to discuss the issue with you? Which is it, high-ranking officials or the people?

And yet you condemn the average Japanese who doesn't want to discuss the issue with you? Which is it, high-ranking officials or the people?

Erm, the problem is that both the average and the officials deny war atrocities. But maybe it's more the fault of the government.

Great. Who is going to apologize for the ones still here?

China is desperately trying to keep the WWII issues alive as they prefer not to see a more assertive

Newsflash: Taiwan isn't China.

Animals without fangs and claws fall prey to other animals. The same is true with international relations. Get Abe elected and change the peace constitution which was forced upon to remove fangs and claws from Japan. Let Japan have nukes and restore the Imperial Army. Then, they will become quiet. "Might is Right"

Erm, the problem is that both the average and the officials deny war atrocities.

Right, then you can't excuse the comments from Americans about the A-bombs, can you?

On the one hand the apology deniers criticize the entire Japanese population as "being "in denial". On the other hand they excuse the rampant anti-Japanese sentiment in their own country as "not the same thing". Sigh .....

Animals without fangs and claws fall prey to other animals. The same is true with international relations. Get Abe elected and change the peace constitution which was forced upon to remove fangs and claws from Japan. Let Japan have nukes and restore the Imperial Army. Then, they will become quiet. "Might is Right"

It's amazing... Japan does not even hide the fact that they're in denial. They're saying might makes right, Abe is right, Imperial Army was right. Oh my...

Schopenhauer Dec. 10, 2012 - 08:55AM JST

No...everyone in Asia (to include the US) would rather have Japan remain the whipping boy of the East.

Right, then you can't excuse the comments from Americans about the A-bombs, can you?

Did I excuse them?

No...everyone in Asia (to include the US) would rather have Japan remain the whipping boy of the East.

And so the right-wingers' comments show their true colors. They were not so sorry after all.

Did I excuse them?

Well....

Right, because that is on the exact same ballpark as high-ranking officials denying war atrocities.

...it looks like an attempt, feeble as it is, to make those comments seem irrelevant to discussion.

And so the right-wingers' comments show their true colors. They were not so sorry after all.

Actually, I am extremely anti-war. That said, the nationalism growing in Japan is partly the results on this constant foreign Japan-bashing. Most of us don't like that it is being aroused again. Which is why we would rather you foreigners shut up about it as it is more than likely you do more harm than good by it.

In a landmark 1993 statement, then chief Japanese government spokesman Yohei Kono apologized to former comfort women and acknowledged Japan’s involvement in causing their suffering.

Accept the apology. End of story.

That said, the nationalism growing in Japan is partly the results on this constant foreign Japan-bashing.

Playing the victim again? Nationalism is rising because all the other countries are starting to surpass Japan. Nationalism is rising because all the Japanese companies are failing. It has nothing to do with bashing. Japan should be blaming themselves for their own failures.

This is a never ending cycle. Japan has apologized. Taiwan will never accept it because they will forever hate Japan. They'll continue to say Japan isn't sincere or whatever and continue to demand apologies. Even if Japan compensated the victims, it will never be enough because the victims' families will be the "next" victims - carrying on what their mother went through.

War is very ugly. It never really ends.... :(

Taiwan will never accept it because they will forever hate Japan.

Taiwan likes Japan. Most Taiwanese like Japan. It has nothing to do with hate.

Thomas Anderson Dec. 10, 2012 - 09:09AM JST

LOL. Now I understand why you can't get a Japanese to have a conversation with you. Why do you hate Japan so much? What good does it do you to find every way to condemn the nation and the people? Who are you to judge another person, much less an entire race of people? What do you gain by making these statements? Does it make you feel superior to the Japanese? Is your life and nation so perfect that your time might be better spent on introspection? Perhaps you are being paid to come here and say these things. It is doubtful that a person would choose to pick on a people with such ferocity and diligence without either a hidden agenda or just for the pleasure of bullying someone.

In a nutshell, everyone:

Japan has apologized numerous times for the war on multiple political levels, addressing multiple crimes. No, I'm not going to post links to support this. They are readily available to any willing to do the legwork, since anyone willing to comment on this topic should also be looking comprehensively at both sides of the issue, even if the information uncovered flies in the face of everything you believe is correct.

Japan's wartime behavior is taught in countless school disctricts throughout Japan and is including in numerous textbooks. Period. No, I'm not going to provide links for the very same reason stated above.

The game being played by many politicians in China, Korean, and Taiwan is no different from the game being played in Japan's political establishment: These jerks are pandering to a segment of the the electorate -- in some cases small, in some cases large -- that embrace the same degree of nationalist zeal as the morons who wander the streets of Japan in their black vans, blaring the Taisho Era's version of Bruce Springsteen's "Glory Days."

In other words, there's nothing new to see here, folks.

Just politics. Japan is generaltl well thought of in Taiwan.

Many posters are insenstive about that remaining handful of old and frail old ladies. According their post, they are not entitiled for some form of compensation and sincere apology. They feel that they are half human and half animal being. If that old ladies are their grand mothers, how will they response about their plights. Time is running out for them. What is wrong with about President Ma speech?

If Japan is remorseful about their past, they have to show the actions. Such as some form of compesation and medical assistance to victims. If my employee got injury or emotional scar, I am the one has to foot the bill and apology. For that cases, they were former employee or sex slave of Japanese imperial army. There is no free lunch or free sex in that world. They need some entitlements.

Whenever someone has bring back the Japanese war time atrocities, many right wing sympathiser will always over react and blame who dares to speak up for victims. They show little interest about victims and protect the offenders past. They are very sensitive about publicity and negative comment. The world is not owned by them. Everyone has right to express their thought free from intimidation and military threats.

Truth is no one is bullying and intimating Japan. It is a freedom of expression from President Ma. He has right to express his feeling. If Japan wants to revisit their pre war imperialism and nationalsm, the choice is theirs. They can do what they want. No wonder nationalist are gaining momentum and Anti GAJIN sentiment is running high. Gaijin will be always Gaijin. According Mar 11 of Narita Airport experience, they are fair weather opportunists who are too chicken about pain and suffering.

They will inflame the nationalists with some scape goats. When there is a real military conflict, they will be first to arrive at the airport for running away. Talk is cheap. Action speaks louder.

saidani: Ok so apparently getting Japan to admit its war atrocities is "hating Japan". Now I see why I can't have a conversation with you.

how may more times do they need (yet another) apology? get them to say it once, shake hands and move on. my hubby's comment to this? "Just like a woman. she never forgets and reminds you about it!"

Accusations of "Hating Japan" and "Japan bashing" are really getting old. Criticize Japan? You must hate Japan! Stop bashing Japan! Japan is above criticism! We are perfect! Japanese people are racially pure, perfect, Godlike beings! We have the most perfect, unbreakable nuclear reactors! How dare you criticize our perfect nuclear reactors! Oh...

Thomas Anderson,

"Japan does not even hide the fact that they're in denial. They're saying might makes right, Abe is right, Imperial Army was right. Oh my..."

And here's part of the problem: Snarky, wholly untrue generalization like the several you've dropped on this thread.

Japan never said, "Might makes right." A registered JT poster with the username Schopenhauer who seems to have a penchant for trolling said it. Mr./Ms. Schopenhauer most assuredly does not speak for the 127 million Japanese who live on this archipelago.

Muddying the waters with blanket assertions like yours may make you feel clever, but it does little to actually help things.

Ok so apparently getting Japan to admit its war atrocities is "hating Japan".

Why do you care? What difference does it matter to you?

History books, like news media, don't always lie, but they carefully select which information to present. They choose those items to include that suit their cause and omit others that do not.

To gain an understanding of just how bad Japan was in the past, it would be necessary to have some knowledge of the Nankin massacre:

http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/NMNJ.html

The forced suicide of Okinawans by Japanese soldiers:

http://japanfocus.org/-Aniya-Masaaki/2629

And, of course, the comfort women issue that is the subject of this discussion.

One of the most valuable lessons to be imparted from a study of history is a recognition of what has gone before and a resolution NEVER to do that again.

Germany was very up front about its war crimes and does not omit any embarrassing details from its history books. As a country, it has been able to move forward from that time as a result.

Until Japan faces up to its past, and admits it, it's always going to be haunted by it.

I think that Japan and the U.S.A. would benefit by including these details in their history text books and giving the whole story, instead of a one sided fairy tale.

Why would any Japanese want to talk to you about it? Given your tone here, it is likely you would simply use the conversation to condemn them and the rest of the Japanese people.

You know it's a low self-esteem about the country as a whole. There is no need for the people of today to feel like "they" were at fault. I have no feelings of being condemned because my ancestors slaughtered native Americans in the US.

It's the Japanese psyche of feeling as if they are all connected throughout time, for whatever reason, that anyone should feel "condemned" for the actions of people over 70 years ago.

Japanese need to get the chip off their shoulder and wake up to the reality.

LFRAgain: Well it wouldn't be so funny if the LDP weren't about to be re-elected again and start the "patriotic education", outright denying war atrocities.

It's about justice

Well it wouldn't be so funny if the LDP weren't about to be re-elected again and start the "patriotic education"

Oh, I get it now. You have a political stake in the matter. US? DPJ? Because, again, no one would be so persistent without a reason. And your concern for justice is not likely to be that reason. You're too over the top and derisive, neither effective debating techniques, but great at taking over comment threads.

Please stop bombarding this thread. You are going around in circles posting 20 messages when one or two would suffice.

Japanese need to get the chip off their shoulder and wake up to the reality.

Sadly, it is not a chip on their shoulder, but insecurity that needs to be overcome. It affects many things in Japan.

I have already addressed this issue on another comment. It is not good in Japan or in the US or anywhere else. That said, all of the world's children get a dose of it if they attend government-run schools. It certainly isn't unique to Japan.

The reason why most Japanese people get upset whenever somebody brings up Japanese war atrocities is because they have never been taught enough about it. They think that all the other countries are lying or exaggerating when it is they who have never been exposed to the truth.

'Abe said there was no evidence.....' So, Japan's next Prime Minister ( if the opinion polls are correct ) holds such views. We all know what weird and not too wonderful history is rattling around Ishihara's head. Many posters here claim these views are in the minority, but they do seem to be held by people in powerful positions. I can also remember a large percentage of Japanese agreeing with the semi-literate revisionist rantings of Tamogami according to surveys. Perhaps these views are held more widely than the sane posters of this site care to acknowledge.

Every nation controls the content of its education system. There are many truths about the war that Americans do not know because it would shine a bad light on America's hero FDR. And while this is not good for anyone, it is not for foreigners to point this out about Japan without showing the context of their own nation. Show some balance if you want respect for your opinion about Japan.

And you should realize that to cover all sides of an issue would fill volumes. So instead of trying to justify or "protect" the Japanese from their own history, learn to accept , as they all should, that in this case foreigners have a better perspective about the actual history than Japanese do themselves.

Foreigners are the only one's who can "tell" Japan what's up, because without them the Japanese themselves would have brushed under the carpet decades ago. That's a FACT too, as they continually try to revise history books today to not teach children today about the atrocities Japanese committed in the past.

Man,,,, Keep on Raggin' bout the past just gets so tired- Maybe they can get Red China to make some apology for the unspoken works of Mao, ,, That'll get the old juices flowing!

LUUUUL people don't get blinded but examine things more carefully. The real subject here is not sex slaves, sincere apologies,how history textbooks are written or any of those touchy topics. After all Ma's own KMT party have a history of murdering millions in mainland China and then following that up with the extermination of tens of thousands of Taiwanese for good measure which to this day are still unresolved. Don't believe me? Take a quick look on Wikipedia. My pa always said If you are going to criticize someone else make sure your own house is in order first.

The real issue my friends politics and the question you should be asking is what is this particular politician coming from a political party so corrupt and vicious that the mainland Chinese chose communism over them trying to get out of making such inflammatory public declarations? It's simple just follow the moneypower trail. As a politician he and his cronies must be trying to make some backdoor deal with China and in order to please their communist pals they have got to say some nasty things about Japan.

In times of emergency you really see who your real friends are. For Japan it's simple America, Canada, Australia have helped immensely with information, monitoring and specialists. Taiwan itself has donated more Tsunamiearthquake money than any other nation so my gut feeling is that the Taiwanese people deep inside their heart still love Japanese culture, Japanese people or some aspect of Japan despite ww2colonialismsex slavesetc. Of course enemies when they see you in a weakened state try to take advantage of you with landresourcepower grabs. You can see why some Japanese are not fond of Russia with the Kurils, Korea with Takeshima and China with the Senkakus. Instead of leaving things status quo all these countries have tried to take advantage of the situation by sending heads of states, increasing PR money for brainwashing non-diligent people to side with their claims, suing Googlemaps to make sure the islands are named exactly how you see fit, etc.

And here it looks like the ultimate sex slave denier abe may well likely be PM again...............

And people wonder why some think Japan has a problem with its history, well DUH!

But hey I have long ago realized its Japans decision the road it wishes to take, so for the past 6+ decades lead us to today, Japan continues on the road to ruin.....................

Japan didnt have to but Japan has CLEARLY chosen this path & is a full 10,000% responsible for it & its consequences, dont look good from where I sit & so so unnecessary but many Japanese have a fatalistic thing, just look at how Japan Inc has fallen the last 20yrs, wow just wow & no end in sight

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Ying-jeou

Folks, before getting too emotional and reacting, you need to understand his motivation behind it. Everyone needs to digest this whole issue rationally what's behind it.He is already position himself for Senkakus. I see it.

"But in remarks in 2007 that triggered a region-wide uproar, then Japanese prime minister Shinzo Abe said there was no evidence that Japan directly forced women to work as sex slaves."

What's funny was watching him, almost tearfully, have to retract his statements upon being given proof, only to see him make up some other excuse why it "didn't happen".

I should add this to my previous post. I have not read his thesis yet, but I am almost certain he is ready to fight for the Senkakus territorial dispute. His position is somewhat libreral towards China and as you know he is Chinese-the same race.

I am listing his book I am ready to order.

Trouble over oily waters : legal problems of seabed boundaries and foreign investments in the East China Sea : a thesis

When will you people get over it?

Why now? As far as I know, they have not said anything for 67 years? 200,000? Which historian said that?

So I used to be so "Pro-America" before I came to Japan. Everything that the US did, teaches, and believes is absolustely correct and undoubtely "THE TRUTH." Again, this is before coming to Japan. Meeting educated Japanese people and engaging in well mannered debates allowed me to view American History from a Japanese perspective. Over the course of many years, I've learned to open up my mind and put my nationalism aside and listen to facts on a human level. This has slowly changed my view on my patriotism.

Now, I find many faults, lies, and coverups that the US did to screw with my brain and subvert me into thinking "America is the greatest country on earth, always and forever." This is revolutionary to my own understanding of the role of government on our lives. And this applies to every person in the world, regardless of what country they live in. To believe that you and your country is an exception just portrays your own ignorance. Yeah, we totally messed up when we dropped the A-bomb, twice! Maybe if the US wasn't such a hypocrit and apologize to Japan for the greatest war atrocity in mankind, then Japan will follow suit and sincerely apologize for their mistakes as well, instead of apologizing and then waiting a few years before un-apologizing. Just saying.

I used to be so "Pro-America" before I came to Japan. Everything that the US did, teaches, and believes is absolustely correct and undoubtely "THE TRUTH."

Seriously? And it took coming to Japan to realize the foolishness of blind faith in one's own government? If this is honestly and truly how you "used to be," then you'll understand my reluctance to believe you've found any sort of real clarity upon coming to Japan.

Besides, this isn't a thread even remotely about the U.S. atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Just sayin'...

@anderson

I think the nazi holocaust would have been a little difficult to deny because most of its citizens (not just its armed forces or secret police) at that time were willing participators in all those atrocities. And, be honest, how Japanese high school history books have you read? Until you can do that and give your grievances the weight of specific examples instead of ranting on, your arguments have little credence.

@anderson

Germany was very up front about its war crimes and does not omit any embarrassing details from its history books.

I think the nazi holocaust would have been a little difficult to deny because most of its citizens (not just its armed forces or secret police) at that time were willing participators in all those atrocities. And, be honest, how many Japanese high school history books have you read? Until you can do that and give your grievances the weight of specific examples instead of ranting on, your arguments have little credence.

PissedOffMateDec. 10, 2012 - 10:20AM JST

The real issue my friends politics and the question you should be asking is what is this particular politician coming from a political party so corrupt and vicious that the mainland Chinese chose communism over them trying to get out of making such inflammatory public declarations?

I did not see any single word related to mainland Chinese or KMT party crime of past for that topic. If you want to bash Communist party and KMT party bloody past, you are in wrong thread. It is not related to that comfort women issue.

Majority of comfort women are in advanced age. Their numbers is declining. If you have no sympathy about their plight, it is your business. However President Ma has attended their reunion. As a high ranking official, he supported them morally. It is his business or his duty as highlighting their interest.

Taiwanese love Japanese food and culture. It does not mean they have to ignore and forget the victims plight. They do not need to follow the way who wanted to avoid the negative publicity about Japanese imperial army. As far as they are still alive, they have rights to fight for their entitlements. There is no inflammatory or biased words in Ma talk. He does not need to kiss the boot of communist pal with that issue. It is humanized gesture and purely concerned about the social and moral issue.

There is nothing politically motivated for promoting the Victims interest. Even ordinary person on the street is willing to support the helpless, old and frail ladies. They have suffered long enough. What 's wrong with giving them some assistance and moral support. They are human being and deserve our respect and comfort as elderly people.

For China, Taiwan KMT leader Mr. Ma Ying-jeou is a good boy!

The issue of a Japanese apology for using sex slaves is a long-running and contentious one

The fundamental issue is Japan as a nation of asia was depised by all neighbours around her! That is a grave shadow to Japan's security!

The good people of Japan must not succumb to the right-wingers' nationalist rhetoric. Make their government take full responsibility for their comfort women and other war crimes. The Japanese government is treating its citizens like children. Don't let that happen.

This issue is not an oil and water case. I would not say Japan is innocent but I can not accept the way it is presented. I have studied the case from many different sources. The best situation is setting up the 3rd countries historian team and Japan should promise whatever the out come would be, take its responsibility based on the history what that was based on the report. Some people here already believed everything what people learned is 100% a real history. I am sure I will get a lot of bads here.

only 5-6 decades late for that one, bro!

Flyfalcon: "I did not see any single word related to mainland Chinese or KMT party crime of past for that topic."

Breathe, take a step back and relaxx. Think you missed my point about the REAL topic and motivations for Ma's public denouncements. Here I will put it in quotes for you "This is really about a crooked politician and his political maneuverings."

War is not something replaceable like a broken chair or faulty TV. We are talking about human beings not machines. It's not about how many apologies, how much compensation, amount of donation or investments but simply in one word, sincerity.

So who is going to decide if Japan is being sincere or not? Wasn't the former chief Japanese government spokesman Yohei Kono sincere in his apology?

Japan needs a time travelling machine to go to past and fix things, which is logically very impossible. And if someone talks same thing again and again then they will be called a Japan basher. There are so many war atrocities around, even now ongoing in Syria. Politicians bring those old matter to light just for their personal gain and dont care about victims emotions. I think you are too harsh on present Japanese generation which even doesnt actually understand or realize what happened during wartime. Yes, they need to be educated with history througly but then it will have adverse effects on thinking of war free present generation. Present generation wants to stay away from war so isnt that good if they dont know everything what happened in past? If everything is taught properly then may be they feel guilty but they will hate US for dropping A-bombs too. So we should rather see the positive side of present Japanese generation. And there is no comparison with Germany too, they were criminals but they were never victims in the same manner as Japan suffered from A-bombs. PS: I'm not Japanese and my comments are based on neutral feelings.

There is still no official apology or policy from the Japanese government. All of the apologies by the PMs are personal.

So you're saying the apologies that PMs make don't matter cuz it's personal? Doesn't the PM apologizing make it official? And you're suggesting there should be some sort of apologetic policy in place? Policy to do what?

What Japan is doing is waiting them out plain and simple, and for that ALL JAPANESE PEOPLE should be ashamed.

All Japanese people ? Its ignorance and self righteousness that cause a lot of the wars to begin with..

So you're saying the apologies that PMs make don't matter cuz it's personal? Doesn't the PM apologizing make it official? And you're suggesting there should be some sort of apologetic policy in place? Policy to do what?

No the PM personally saying something and the government doing something are different. Sure apologies are important, but it's not everything. What about action? Without action apologies are meaningless. What is Japan doing about it? Why isn't Japan thoroughly investigating about comfort women? They are not exactly officially admitting the existence of comfort women, and how the ex-military systematically abducted and abused those women. And why isn't Japan teaching more thorough history about comfort women to their citizens? Their citizens deserve to know the truth.

So many of the protagonists in this areguments have their own dirty laundry to wash (KMT, PRC, Koreans etc). Beats me why Europe has managed to put the horrors of war behind it so much more effectively than there Asian neighbours (well, except Serbia and Croatia and bosnia and Macedonia and Albania). Oh, and the Basques and Catalans.

Maybe it is just the politicians stirring things up for their own selfish ends?

@Pissoffmate

Take a deep breath. Relax and calm your hatred and resentment to Ma and KMT . I am not a fan of President Ma or KMT. As I posted before I am a fan of comfort women plight. That article is not about narrowly focused political agenda who is saint or who is crook. Whether Ma is crooked or not it is my business. I am more interested in entitlement of that old and frail ladies. It is about demanding some form of financial compensation and moral support for that poor, old and frail ladies.

For you, you have plenty of time to live on. For that poor ladies, time is running out. Getting compensation and apology will bring them joy and some relief.

Japan was both an aggressor in Asia & victim of 2 A-bombs.Whether A-bombs experience is a good excuse for Japan not to feel sorry to Asians I don't know for sure but A-bomb issue doesn't alleviate the pains that Koreans and Asians had to undergo.But then I can also understand why it's so hard for Japan to apologize to Asia! If our generation cannot solve this issue then nothing much can be done about it.Why can't we just understand each other a little bit more? For example Koreans can stop carping about past so much while Japan makes more effort to understand and soothe Korean people's hurt feelings.Mutual empathy between two Asian countries can go a long way to heal the past wounds!

Michael Japan has sent out the apologizes and retribution money. Most Japanese know the horror of the first atomic war but do not like having our noses rubbed in it. The best we can do is NEVER to invade another country. We need to remain neutral as our motives in interfering would be questionable at best. So many Japanese including myself think we should NEVER send another military force over seas. The Americans gave us article #9. A better give is unknown as for Taiwan, sir please keep Japan out of your election! Win it by your own merits.

ChamkunDec. 10, 2012 - 01:01PM JST

This issue is not an oil and water case. I would not say Japan is innocent but I can not accept the way it is presented. I have studied the case from many different sources.

That comfort women issue has been argued by Japanese historians for so long. According extremist Abe, it was not even existed. You have already studied many J historical versions. Therefore you feel that comfort women are fraud. It is worse than slapping their faces.

The best situation is setting up the 3rd countries historian team and Japan should promise whatever the out come would be, take its responsibility based on the history what that was based on the report.

Comfort Women are in advanced age. If they wait for your research, they will never get any cent for their plight when the prolong research has completed. Reality is Japanese politicians will never accept their plight. It will save money and their ultra national pride of pure and clean as snow.

Some people here already believed everything what people learned is 100% a real history. I am sure I will get a lot of bads here.

That issue has been high -lighted by victims. Not from third party ! That old and frail women are not smart enough as educated Guru for white washing history and down grade them as fraud. Every one has individual story. Higashinakano Sam of Tokyo Asia university was sued in 2007 for another case. He lost that case and victim was rewarded.

To: Flyfalcon

No real hatred of the him or the KMT. Just pointing out the facts about the man and his political affiliations to get the real story here. Sadly this public announcement is not about any actual caring or concern. It's really a political power play where backroom deals are made between national-political powers for private profiteering using emotional topics as the form of currency. What we have here mate is making a huge amount of noise and racket on one end to deflect the general public's notice of the real agenda. Glad you don't care about that and happily accept your own narrow view of the article.

The problem with Japanese "apologies" is that they depend on who is in office. When one politician or diplomat says "We're sorry," then another (eg Abe) steps in and says, "Sorry? Sorry for what? We didn't do nuthin'," it gives a horrible impression of many things, not least of which is the collective sincerity of the nation.

Having said that, I'm not surprised there is confusion...I know plenty who have no idea of the atrocities carried out during the war (any war, for that matter)...and I know many who are aware, but believe that Japan, in fact, helped China and Korea and that they should be grateful.

PissOffMateDec. 10, 2012 - 03:55PM JST

What we have here mate is making a huge amount of noise and racket on one end to deflect the general public's notice of the real agenda. Glad you don't care about that and happily accept your own narrow view of the article.

What general public feeling of Ma is not related to that topic...We are not discussing about Taiwan politic here. Ma may be bad for Taiwanese. It is not the international problem. Majority of sex slaves are from Korea. Some are from Philippines. Some are from Taiwan and other nations. I do not concern about Ma will lose his office or not. I concern about the compensation for that old ladies.

For the poor comfort women, he still has a gut to raise their plight. Someone can be bad for something and raise the awareness of good cause too.

Dear FlyFalcon,

When you are done trying so hard to emotionally blackmail me and other smart readers here so we can have a real discussion let me know. Here I can even hold your hand when you decide to come down from your soapbox.

"It is not the international problem."

Really? Then perhaps the man should not be making international announcements to advance his own political agenda? My good man read more carefully and do more research so you gain a broader view and do not get boxed into such a narrow view of things. That is simply the point I am making.

"AKBfanDec. 10, 2012 - 03:11PM JST

Maybe it is just the politicians stirring things up for their own selfish ends?"

Ding, ding,ding give this man a cigar he wins the million dollar question. I could not have said it better myself. When people make grandiose announcements the first things to check are the man and his motivations.

Present generation wants to stay away from war so isnt that good if they dont know everything what happened in past?

Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it.

I agree with the people who are saying that post war generations shouldn't be made to feel guilty for what their ancestors did. China, Taiwan and S'Korea won't be happy until every man, woman and child in Japan bows down and apologises, and keeps apologising.

It's like those of us in the UK and US... made to feel guilty for what happened with slavery. Should the people of Italy apologise for what the Romans did? How about the rapes and violence caused by the Vikings... should I demand an apology from Denmark? How about Homo Sapiens apologising for wiping out the Neanderthals. I know, that's all rather stupid... but so is constantly badgering modern Japan for repeated apologies for wartime atrocities.

Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it.

Urghh. That kind of cheesy cliche belongs on an 14 year-olds school homework. Knowledge of past failure is no guarantee of success.

You want to know why Korean, Chinese people cant 'get over it'? Because Japan cant get over it by herself if you understand their attempt.

The Japanese tactic is simple: Wait until all those fromer 'Comfort women' deceased and there they go is to proof no atrocities against women during WW2! The Imperial japnese army has done a great job to liberate asian people out of western imperialism! Once this theory is established, Japan wins!

PissOffMateDec. 10, 2012 - 04:33PM JST

When you are done trying so hard to emotionally blackmail me and other smart readers here so we can have a real discussion let me know. Here I can even hold your hand when you decide to come down from your soapbox.

As your name, your post lack the respect to other. I did not see any single word or comfort women issue in any single line of your post. As I posted before I am not here to discuss about how bad and cruel is Ma. Not every poster is interested in Taiwan politic. The smarter the readers, they will manipulate that topic for their interest. I am not a politician. I will not gain anything from analyzing that issue. It is not soapbox. Imagine your mother or grand mother is a comfort woman, who will stand up for their plight?

My good man read more carefully and do more research so you gain a broader view and do not get boxed into such a narrow view of things. That is simply the point I am making.

I did not post anything about defending Ma is a saint. You are the one not willing to discuss about the real topic. According your post, that issue is political stunt for Ma. Fine. What do you expect he has to talk to that old women in forum? Did he has to shut up or he told them your folks are fraud? Japanese imperial army is pure and innocent as snow white. I have to please the Japanese authority. Therefore stop pursuing your non sense plight.

No one need to lecture or interfere someone freedom of expression. Whether you agree with him or not is entirely yours. Whether he is sincere about that issue or not. Who cares! He was talking to victims. Not to third party like you or me who is nothing to gain or lose for that issue!

Once after Mr Abe to be the next PM of Japan, the debate and blaming over the Japanese military's war time atrocities against women of other nationalities will heats up again! So it wasnt Chinese, Koreans refused to let go of it but Japan's refusal of 'let go of it' from begin! Someone in his government will making remarks the denial of comfort women is an 'atrocity'! Thats why no way to get over it !

Why isn't Japan thoroughly investigating about comfort women?

Why would they?

Consider. Suppose they DID look into the issue, and they found that there are really no sex slaves in the comfort women, or such a low count it can be counted as individual gaffes rather than a national-government level conspiracy?

Would they be allowed to publish such a result?

If not, why would they investigate. You can't have an investigation without at least the possibility of being allowed to conclude it did not happen!

lol..i think they're required to make such requests several times a year, alike china, korea, and other SEA countries...

but likelihood of a tangible result? ZERO

no longer has any meaning other than for political purposes

It's like those of us in the UK and US... made to feel guilty for what happened with slavery. Should the people of Italy apologise for what the Romans did? How about the rapes and violence caused by the Vikings... should I demand an apology from Denmark? How about Homo Sapiens apologising for wiping out the Neanderthals. I know, that's all rather stupid... but so is constantly badgering modern Japan for repeated apologies for wartime atrocities

Thunderbird,

Your making a simple mistake, all the things you mention above are part of history, its known, it isnt denied(except by morons!). The problem with Japan is its govt has systematically NOT taught history so many dont know much about it. A typical Japanese person is aware there was suffering, there were incidents, some people died.............its all extremely vague, highly played down, they dont know the brutal savagery Japan reigned down!

THAT is the problem & its a huge one!

Its generally acknowlegded Japan killed between 20-30million, using the lower figure from 1930 to 1945 thats 1,333,333 per year, 111,111 per month, AND 3703 per day, thats EVERYDAY for 15years STRAIGHT NON-STOP!

Japan was a brutal savage killing machine & the above doesnt include the survivors so you need to add many many millions more to all this.

Now NONE of this is the fault of Japanese born afterwards, BUT they clearly need to learn a little about this or they will NEVER have a clue as to why their neighbours complainso much.

Successive J-govts over 6decades have done MASSIVE disservice to their country & their people. Its a damn shame but Japan has done this to itself, it only has itself to blame

Thunderbird2Dec. 10, 2012 - 05:06PM JST

China, Taiwan and S'Korea won't be happy until every man, woman and child in Japan bows down and apologises, and keeps apologising.

I agree whole heartedly you. All of the old ladies are in advanced age and too frail to travel again. If every young Japanese bows down and apologize them everyday, it will bring some joy and relief for them. They have been suffered emotional and physical scar for too long.

It is better than politician apology which someone will apologize and someone will offend them as they are fraud.

In fact they are more interested in medial care and financial support. However there are not many left over now. J politicians are very patient about that waiting game. Very few of them will see the penny in their life time.

Just for the record, there are in fact Japanese people who mourn the victims of Nanjing massacre by attending the 66th anniversary of Japan's surrender in World War II. http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90783/7570580.html http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/photo/2011-08/15/content_13117950.htm

However, my concern are the fact Japanese people who try to deny, explain away or play down the war atrocities.

According some smart, wise, pushy and one sided readers or posters, Ma has pursued that issue for political motivation. He is insincere about that issue. If Ma is sincere and sensitive about that issue, he has to compensate with his money. Japanese imperial army is pure and clean. No one can deny about Japan sacrifice for new Asia during WWII. Japan will say NO to that fraudulent old women issue. It is the political conspiracy from cunning neighbors.

After reading these news and all the comments, my understanding of the discussion comes to this:

Japan already offered apologies for the sex slaves issue.

Shinzo Abe messed up by saying there was no proof, then proof was presented and another apology was issued, then he went on to give more excuses and denial.

No wonder the Asian countries are so insistent on a sincere apology. I don't know about Asian countries, but in my country (not USA) just saying "sorry" means nothing. You have to do an act of reparation or give a compensation. I wonder if this is what these old ladies want? Surely some sort of compensation has been asked? Please excuse my ignorance of the events, but if it was so, how easy would it be to end this problem. Maybe someone would say that giving a compensation is the same as admitting to the fault, but that was over when the apology was first presented, unless some deniers are obstructing the resolution of this problem.

Whatever the case, is it not right to solve this problem now so that the future generation has a better fighting chance? Maybe things will not improve, but surely they will not get worse.

Sadly too is how a single voice can do so much damage against one country. This Ma person may bring hate towards Taiwan, just as Abe or Ishihara and others, with their personal opinions bring great damage to Japan. It concerns me, because I live here.

Just a last note on the education about war history here. I was having a nice conversation the other day with some Japanese men about Europe's economy and past and how some victim countries of the WWII have yet to recover completely from the damages of that war. One of the men said Japan is a victim too, and others supported him. After a while I realized they had no idea that Japan was one of the aggressor countries. And I am not talking about kids or teenagers here, these were all middle aged men, 35 years old on average. They said they just did not know, that they did not learn that in school. I think there is something really wrong with that and you can see the effects of that ignorance in the surging nationalism, assuming that most Japanese are afflicted with this same case of ignorance. Just a story to ponder on.

Well, this is just my opinion. An opinion is never wrong because it is just that.

This issue is massive and never going to go away. The issue is really about attitudes to sex, which are very very different.

As far as I am aware the comfort women were bonded labourers. Bonded labour is deemed a form of slavery, but it is rife, today in many many many areas of the world economy and was certainly rife in war time Asia. It continues now.

This fact, that many people are just working to pay their debts, and are trapped in their work-to-repay-debt existence is not bewailed in many sectors, but it is horrible in the sex industry because selling ones sex is different, at least (at least) in the West.

There were tens of thousands of Korean miners in Japan. There were people working under terrible conditions all over Asia. But the sex industry is different. Above all because there are massively different attitudes to that industry. Massively different attitudes.

@Flyfalcon - I wasn't saying Japanese people should do that, I think the complete opposite. Why should my friends and loved ones bow down and apologise for something they had nothing to do with?

At some point, you have to stop apologizing and tell the offended party to deal with their own neurosis. Whether or not they can is open to question, but it is not your problem.

China is chomping at the bit right now, so polite admonishment of some of thier crazier ideas while arming seems prudent at this point

Blah, blah, blah. Apologies have been given several times over.

Yes, and for every apology given there is some powerful right-winger who wants to retract it because he claims the Japanese never actually did any of the terrible things they're apologising for. Under the circumstances I think that if I were Chinese, Taiwanese, Korean or Philipino I would have a hard time taking any Japanese apology at face value.

I think Ma's next targets will be getting the PRC to apologize for Mao's starvation of 60 million people. Then the descendents of John Wilkes Boothe for assassinating Lincoln. Then Yoko Ono for splitting up the Beatles. Let bad times and haunted souls rest in peace.

The devil is in the details.

Whether it be Nanking or this Comfort woman issue it is always Japan did it so apologize. Let's look at the fact during that era prostitution was LEGAL the government didn't require to abduct people by force. By placing a want ad, willing female applied. If there were shortage of female applicants then some people may have abuducted to fill in the shortage but let's see some actual evidence that the government was involved before making a blanket statement. Same with Nangking. How many were in Nangking at the point ROC abandoned Nangking. Remember there was a war right near the walls and people had ample time to evacuate. Next how many ROC soldier turned in their uniform into plain clothes and fled into the city. People talks about most females were raped then killed where are the bodies. 300,000 bodies is not easy to hide.After the occupation there was a survey which showed that there were more than 300,000 people living right after IJA troops left the town. How many were living before the war, during the occupation and after the occupation. Really alot are just harping the Japan is baddies but really not many can nor are elaborating the details here.

Let's hear them and let's discuss them so each side can find middle ground where both side can accept each other's point of view. I am really tired of hearing this apologize with out the details on how many, where, who were directly involved that are responsible, etc. without them we Japanese cannot make an apology without know what we are apologizing for.

I also like to hear from the Koreans ,etc. accusing Japanese of this issue point out their own people since there were many invovled on their own side. The Dutch, Belgians, French, etc. had convicted and executed their own people as collaborators how about the Korean collaborators that were involved to this issue.

"Shinzo Abe said there was no evidence that Japan directly forced women to work as sex slaves"

what would happen if the German chancellor denied that the Holocaust had ever happened ? and this guy is going to be the next PM, that is all you need to know about japan

The issue of a Japanese apology for using sex slaves is a long-running and contentious one.

Got that right. The last time this happened was when Shinzo Abe was PM. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/25/world/asia/25japan.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

This time where's the atonement and money from the Japanese Government, final episode Sexual Apology XXX.

Wow. Talk about utterly shallow and pointless.

Within the course of this one thread, we've seen the discussion turn from, "Japan should apologize," (Which it has), to "Japan should apologize sincerely," (Which it has several times), to *"No, Japan should apologize, really, really sincerely,*" (Which, without belaboring the point, it has), to, "Show me the money!"

Financial reparations after the war is an issue that was -- and I'm getting really tired of having to point this out to people too stubborn, too foolish, or too much a mixture of both to figure this out on their own -- already settled.

Nothing will satisfy those demanding their pound of flesh. Nothing.

What makes it all even more offensive is that this is political opportunism at its absolute worst on all sides of the equation

The more politicians like Ma Ying-jeou stoke this issue to curry favor with Taiwanese nationalists, the more asshats like Shinzo Abe feel compelled to spew their own particular brand of nationalist ignorance, undoing the efforts of countless honest public servants who worked tirelessly and sincerely to bring this matter to a satisfactory close.

Stay classy, people. Stay classy.

'Historical mistakes can be forgiven, but the lessons of history should not be forgotten.'

I love this quote. Diplomatically, I believe that an apology from the Japanese government, whether they truly believe it or not, would help their image and position in Asia at the moment.

comarade_captainDec. 10, 2012 - 05:49PM JST

You want to know why Korean, Chinese people cant 'get over it'? Because Japan cant get over it by herself if you understand their attempt.

The Japanese tactic is simple: Wait until all those fromer 'Comfort women' deceased and there they go is to proof no atrocities against women during WW2! The Imperial japnese army has done a great job to liberate asian people out of western imperialism! Once this theory is established, Japan wins!

Not exactly. The apologies were not made by the government, while they have been nicely counter-balanced by denials from prominent politicians and courts at all levels. Apologies have stopped, while the noise of denials is only gonna get louder.

AND let's pretend nobody has noticed that none of the apologies can compare to the standard apology made everyday in Japan. Does anyone expect the company not bow deeply and even talk back to the Sasago tunnel victims?

It has been said once and again that current generation of Japanese are not responsible for the war crimes. Have they not inherited the part of history when they feel like? For instance, the disputes of Diaoyu and Dokko were all created by the grandfathers. Lies were told and are still being told just to continue the claims. Had it not been the tragic lives of those comfort women, or as Clinton pointed out, enforced sex slaves, it is almost comical to watch the current generation of Japanese holding dear to the part of their grandfathers' war loot but denying their war atrocities.

Another nice excuse is 'everybody had done it'. It always makes one wonder why Japan ever needs police force. Unless every criminal is charged, apparently the Japanese logic is nobody can be punished first. Germany is truly the white elephant in the hall. The grandfathers in Meiji time supposedly copies a great deal from Germany to lift the country up. Several generations later, nobody here has yet to understand what has been missing.

It has been said once and again that current generation of Japanese are not responsible for the war crimes. Have they not inherited the part of history when they feel like? For instance, the disputes of Diaoyu and Dokko were all created by the grandfathers. Lies were told and are still being told just to continue the claims. Had it not been the tragic lives of those comfort women, or as Clinton pointed out, enforced sex slaves, it is almost comical to watch the current generation of Japanese holding dear to the part of their grandfathers' war loot but denying their war atrocities.

Okay, I hereby apologise for my ancestors killing tens of thousands of Romans as they invaded Scotland 2000 years ago, brutally hacking them to death and doing other, unmentionable things to them. There, that should placate the souls of the 9th Legion.

Japanese prime minister Shinzo Abe said there was no evidence that Japan directly forced women to work as sex slaves.

Evidence documenting sex-slave coercion revealed

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20070418a5.html

SamuraiBlueDec. 10, 2012 - 10:15PM JST

The devil is in the details.

Whether it be Nanking or this Comfort woman issue it is always Japan did it so apologize. Let's look at the fact during that era prostitution was LEGAL the government didn't require to abduct people by force. By placing a want ad, willing female applied. If there were shortage of female applicants then some people may have abuducted to fill in the shortage but let's see some actual evidence that the government was involved before making a blanket statement. Same with Nangking. How many were in Nangking at the point ROC abandoned Nangking. Remember there was a war right near the walls and people had ample time to evacuate. Next how many ROC soldier turned in their uniform into plain clothes and fled into the city. People talks about most females were raped then killed where are the bodies. 300,000 bodies is not easy to hide.After the occupation there was a survey which showed that there were more than 300,000 people living right after IJA troops left the town. How many were living before the war, during the occupation and after the occupation. Really alot are just harping the Japan is baddies but really not many can nor are elaborating the details here.

Let's hear them and let's discuss them so each side can find middle ground where both side can accept each other's point of view. I am really tired of hearing this apologize with out the details on how many, where, who were directly involved that are responsible, etc. without them we Japanese cannot make an apology without know what we are apologizing for.

I also like to hear from the Koreans ,etc. accusing Japanese of this issue point out their own people since there were many invovled on their own side. The Dutch, Belgians, French, etc. had convicted and executed their own people as collaborators how about the Korean collaborators that were involved to this issue.

Right, let's examine the victims. Before we make sure they are perfect, no conclusion can be made. If we can't figure out the exact figure, it probably did not even happen. And even if the victims are real, let's examine again. There are bound to be problems. Above all, let''s be frank. They should have had enough time to act or protect themselves. Not just in Nanking, any rape victim should have been more alert or prepared. After all, who knows whether any of them was not willing?! Collaborators with the Japanese? Then they don't have a case.

Let's be specific. Why should these comfort women be taken seriously at all?

Whatever you do, keep injecting doubt to ensure Japan is kept out of this examination.

Okay people, we know that its wrong but you cant hold a grudge on the past forever. If you dont forgive and keep moving onward you'll never get anywhere in life. Stop living in the past. As a woman I think that its horrible to make women be sex slaves. I also know that as a women that is how we were treated back then. There's nothing we can do about the past but there's so much we can do for the future.

kevininjapan

Right, let's examine the victims. Before we make sure they are perfect, no conclusion can be made. If we can't figure out the exact figure, it probably did not even happen. And even if the victims are real, let's examine again. There are bound to be problems. Above all, let''s be frank. They should have had enough time to act or protect themselves. Not just in Nanking, any rape victim should have been more alert or prepared. After all, who knows whether any of them was not willing?! Collaborators with the Japanese? Then they don't have a case.

Let's be specific. Why should these comfort women be taken seriously at all?

Whatever you do, keep injecting doubt to ensure Japan is kept out of this examination.

Auhh, you're just evading the question and trying to enforce a blanket statement that people would not accept. Sorry but debate doesn't work that way.

Okay people, we know that its wrong but you cant hold a grudge on the past forever. If you dont forgive and keep moving onward you'll never get anywhere in life. Stop living in the past. As a woman I think that its horrible to make women be sex slaves. I also know that as a women that is how we were treated back then. There's nothing we can do about the past but there's so much we can do for the future.

If only the Japanese stop denying it first.

@SamuraiBlue

Hope these links answer your questions.

Nanking death toll estimates

http://www.nankingatrocities.net/1990s/nineties_02.htm

Eyewitnesses by Japanese jounalists http://www.nankingatrocities.net/Fall/fall_01.htm

Eyewitnesses by foreign jounalists http://www.nankingatrocities.net/Fall/fall_01.htm

There's more, just click the link below and see it yourself if you want to know more about Rape of Nanking in detail.

http://www.nankingatrocities.net/Table/table.htm

My mistake,I put the wrong link.

Eyewitnesses by Japanese jounalists

http://www.nankingatrocities.net/Terror/terror_01.htm

@ Impersonator

No wonder the Asian countries are so insistent on a sincere apology. I don't know about Asian countries, but in my country (not USA) just saying "sorry" means nothing. You have to do an act of reparation or give a compensation. I wonder if this is what these old ladies want? Surely some sort of compensation has been asked? Please excuse my ignorance of the events, but if it was so, how easy would it be to end this problem. Maybe someone would say that giving a compensation is the same as admitting to the fault, but that was over when the apology was first presented, unless some deniers are obstructing the resolution of this problem.

Thank you for your polite and reasonable contribution to this discussion. I believe there are some facts that you should be made aware of.

Indeed compensation has been requested - perhaps not by the Taiwanese victims (although some Taiwanese victims did receive financial compensation from the AWF as detailed below) but certainly by the Korean victims which make up the largest proportion of those women forced or coerced into sexual servitude.

The Japanese government response to these requests can be considered by looking at three points.

Again and again the Japanese government apologized specifically to the victims of sexual servitude - at least nine times by my count. Apology deniers would have you believe that these apologies were not sincere, thereby giving themselves the godlike power of seeing into the souls of other men. It is my position, and frankly the position of all credible and unbiased historians, that these apologies were delivered in good faith and with the support of the vast majority of Japanese citizens.

In a 1965 treaty with ROK the Japanese government paid a lump sum of $364 million dollars (based on the South Korean's own figures of 1.03 million conscripted into servitude by the Japanese Imperial Army @ a rate of $1650/death, $2000/injured and a further $200/surviving family member) as well as $800 million in grants and soft loans with the understanding that the money was to be used to compensate victims of Japanese war crimes in ROK. The agreement stipulated that the government of ROK would take responsibility for dispersing these funds to the victims directly and that no further claims would be made.

Suffice it to say that the government of ROK bungled the job and many Korean victims received only a fraction of the payout that was intended by the Japanese government. Instead the bulk of the money was used on infrastructure projects - which were also mostly conducted with technology and support given by the Japanese government and Japanese industrial firms.

It was only in 2005 - after decades of leading their citizens to believe that the Japanese had failed to pay proper compensation - that the government of ROK finally owned up to the facts and disclosed 1200 pages of documents detailing the agreement with Japan and the negotiations leading up to it. In these documents it was revealed that Japan had been willing to settle claims on an individual basis but had bowed to the ROK demand that they be allowed to handle disbursement of the compensation.

The declassified dossier further revealed that no compensation was dispersed to the women subjected to sexual slavery. The "comfort women" and their supporters increased their demands for financial retribution and apologies, and more than 2,000 individual families filed suit against the South Korean government for unfair distribution of the compensation money.

In light of these events (and bowing once again to outside pressure to do more), the government of Japan decided to issue another round of apologies, most offered by former PM Koizumi (six in total by this PM alone), and one of which I quote here. "As Prime Minister of Japan, I thus extend anew my most sincere apologies and remorse to all the women who underwent immeasurable and painful experiences and suffered incurable physical and psychological wounds as comfort women. We must not evade the weight of the past, nor should we evade our responsibilities for the future. I believe that our country, painfully aware of its moral responsibilities, with feelings of apology and remorse, should face up squarely to its past history and accurately convey it to future generations." Again, one has to question either the reading comprehension or the motivation of those apology deniers who would dare to state that these words are "insincere" or not "remorseful" enough.

Furthermore, from 1995-2006 the Japanese government operated the much maligned Asian Women’s Fund (AWF) which sought to recognize the particularly grave suffering endured by many women at the hands/behest of the Japanese military.

¥565m ($4.7m) was raised in donations from the Japanese people, and given to 285 comfort women from Korea, Taiwan and the Philippines, each of whom received about 2m yen ($16,700). It should be noted that communist china refused to participate. A further ¥770m ($6.5m) in taxpayers' money was provided to pay for medical fees for these women, and for 79 other women from the Netherlands. And finally, ¥370 million ($3.1m) was spent building medical facilities and old peoples' homes in Indonesia, rather than compensating individuals there.

The AWF closed its doors in 2006, after having spent a decade searching for surviving comfort women and delivering compensation and apologies (addressed to each victim individually and signed by the PM of Japan) to those willing to accept them. Sadly, many former comfort women rejected the apologies and compensation. This was especially the case in Korea because nationalists there (the same ones that erected a bronze statue condemning Japan in a park across the street from the Japanese embassy in Seoul) had convinced them that a foundation established and funded by the Japanese government was “unofficial,” and thus the AWF’s work did not amount to a “sincere” effort by Japan. Sounds a lot like the apology deniers here at JT.

In conclusion I must ask you Mr/Ms Impersonator .... given all of these efforts by the Japanese government ( and the citizens of Japan since most AWF activities were founded through donations from the Japanese people - the same ones that many JT readers would have you believe are "in denial") why are there still demands for further apologies and compensation? If you were a member of the Japanese government would you believe that the next apology or the next round of compensation would finally satisfy the critics? Is there anything that you could think to do that would bring this terrible issue to a close?

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel / politician." Not that Japan is without fault though.

Believe the comfort women happened, the Imperials knew no shame and wherever they went these "comfort stations" were set up. Think your worse thoughts on what happened and more. Please try and remember because a few "historians" and nuts say otherwise does not mean this is what most Japanese think. Most Japanese are too busy in our mundane day to day lives to worry about it. It is also painful to think about it. How could these "people" do these thing to people? Most Japanese believe the stories of the comfort women.

The government officials paid for their crimes. They were hung by their necks, cremated and their ashes thrown in Tokyo Bay. They should of been thrown in a trash landfill. Then the neo-thugs would have a proper place to pay their respects.

This President Ma is basically a politician bankrupt of ideas. The issue of war atrocities had been resolved immediately after the war, and if any war reparations or retribution is to be made, General Macarthur and the War Crime Tribunals had seen to it. Japanese government has been magnanimous enough (or gutless) to have repeatedly apologized and made additional compensations even though it is not obliged to. I don't see Britain politicians asking the German government to apologize or make compensation for Hitler's war atrocities year after year, again and again. Even a common criminal cannot be punished again and again for the same crime. So, I wonder what is it with the Chinese, Taiwanese and Korean politicians> Are children of these races born with this hatred for Japanese or are they just tools of government propaganda? If these people hate Japan so much, why do I see so many of them queuing at the immigration office everyday trying to live in Japan, or for the matter, thousands of them want to be Japanese nationals? Is it their culture to say one thing but do another thing? Is it their culture to profiteer by any means with no regards to moral? I just hope that the Easterners can learn from the Westerners to be gentleman, forgive and move forward. Let what had happened in the past as history to be remembered as lessons not to be repeated instead of propaganda instrument to instill hatred in the future generations.

Damn Japan what the hell is wrong with you. Just apologize for this shizz and move on like Germany did and does.

hidingout,

Thank you for that spot-on, brilliant post. I admit I'm far too jaded by people's pigheaded indifference to truth and fact to be bothered to post links or information anymore.

Sadly, it goes without saying that your efforts will likely do little to assuage the bruised-by-proxy egos of posters here five generations removed from the actual events in question. But thank you again for bringing some lucidity to a discussion rife with an appalling degree of sheer ignorance, even as recently as the Dec. 11, 2012 -02:29AM post.

One big problem with the comfort women issue is the simple fact that many of the women, possibly a majority of them, were willing professional prostitutes. In fact, many of them were Japanese. Do they get money too?

There were instances of kidnapping and sexual slavery but there were also volunteer prostitutes. If you believe the Korean and Taiwanese side, 100% of these women were sex slaves kidnapped by the Japanese military. If you believe Japanese historians, they of course will tell you that only a very small percentage of women were forced into prostitution and most were professional prostitutes who volunteered for the job...

The issue is seriously muddled and not black and white like German WWII war crimes.

Even the above article pointed out the consistency. It shows that there was no sincere apology. We can't really trust J gov't.

Which ones are not sincere?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

Evidence documenting sex-slave coercion revealed

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/text/nn20070418a5.html

Abe's point is that there was official policy against such behavior and when this happened the people involved was persecuted by the Japanese military.

Abe's original statements about comfort women in 2007 were also largely mistranslated in the English media.

http://transpacifica.net/2007/03/02/more-on-abes-comfort-women-denial/

This guy is a joke. His own political party executed millions in mainland China then ran like cowards to Taiwan. I mean think about it mainland China chose a totalitarian state over the them because they were too cruel and vicious to their own people. Just Google their bloody historical exterminations. Now he wants to argue the plight of others? Really? What a hypocrite.

The real story here is not any sense of caring or empathy but a politically motivated attack for private gain using an emotional subject as possible that we all know everyone will disagree on. Hey guys let's distract everyone with the emotional appeals so we can sidetrack the public from seeing the actual purpose of this announcement: to obtain resources. Simultaneously constant harping against the chosen target will make them look bad regardless of any validity, improve relations with his new-found pals across the straits and all without actually trying to improve anything. It's so disgraceful and utterly shameful.

Ok, so here's the solution. Japanese Government spends 100Million Yen and builds a memorial to acknowledge their abuse of comfort women during the war. They host the opening ceremony with open invitations to all survivors, Taiwanese, Chinese, Korean, etc. and give a 5 minute PR speech by some semi-high ranking politician detailing the hardships that these women faced and acknowledging 60 years of neglect.

A million US dollars and a five minute speech. That's it! What's so hard?

Sikdjgugu, yet another "insincere" solution. It will not work. Do you think people are so dumb?

A　million US dollars and five minute speech. Yes, Japanese government was naive enough to believe it will work and have paid 10 times the amount again and again, and almost every new prime minister had given some sort of apology speeches which lasted more than 5 minutes. So, sikdjgugu, it is not so hard but it does NOT solve the problem either. Blackmailers will never give up demanding again and again if their demands are met every time.

And flowers, I guess by your definition of sincerity, all Japanese should either commit harakiri and disappear from the face of this earth or hand over the sovereignty of the nation to China and be one of its colony. Or would you prefer all Japanese women today to be mandated to prostitute themselves to the Chinese, Koreans, Taiwanese and other claimants of comfort women?

Sikdjgugu, yet another "insincere" solution. It will not work. Do you think people are so dumb?

I think you underestimate the power of a physical monument, symbolizing the remorse of a country and the crimes of its ancestors. Words of apology alone can be very empty as they are retracted depending on who is in the position of power. (Insert Abe-san) With a memorial, the family and children of these comfort women can visit Japan and say "Hey look, Japan isn't shy to recognize and apologize for the faults that they did to my ancestor." I don't doubt for a minute that the new generation of people will forgive and forget as this becomes a learning opportunity for people of all countries involved. Apologies only work when they're from the heart.

I think the people that needed to apologies are all hanged or have died! so move on and lets focus on N.Korea which is the Now!

Singaporeman, "sincere" apology means you say it in one voice representing the whole nation and forever commit to it. Not just said it and later retracted what previously said, or did an act to the contrary, or made denial statements afterwards. Who in their right mind would believe J gov't when they did that again and again. Hundred apologies would not be enough. And, you are watching old movies too much, nowadays it is extremely hard to colonize a nation or control the people. You can see that China prefers long term solutions not a short term gain.

Sikdjgugu, sorry I might misinterpret your comment. The monument is a good idea if there is indeed a sincere apology and high-ranking officials should be involved.

Singaporeman!

If you read the ariticle again, Government spokeman Yohei Kono apologised in 1993. In 2007 that triggered a region-wide uproar, then Japanese prime minister Shinzo Abe said there was no evidence that Japan directly forced women to work as sex slaves. PM word is sharper than spokenman. Therefore previous apology was a joke. According your post, that old women have to give up for pursuing their plight.

By the way are you really Singaporean? Have u been to Old Changi prson during WWII?

If the Japanese have the slightest integrity of character, they will keep apologizing for the disgusting atrocities they committed to other nationalities. These apologies are the least they can do to get back the image they lost by igniting the war and causing so much suffering in millions of people.

Singaporeman, "sincere" apology means you say it in one voice representing the whole nation and forever commit to it.

What does that even mean? Are you suggesting something like at 9:00 AM on a sunny day in August all the Japanese citizens cease their daily activities, turn their faces toward communist china, and shout "gomennasai"? Sounds like the another famous excuse of the apology deniers urging Japan to "confront their past". Empty words that offer no real contribution to to the discussion.

You can see that China prefers long term solutions not a short term gain.

This thread is not the place for you to trumpet the "wisdom" of the communists. But supposing for a second that you had a point, is that why the communist chinese government refused offers of financial compensation from Japan during the ten years that the AWF was in operation? Or was it that they cared less for easing the suffering of their citizens than they did for having a big stick with which to continue bashing Japan?

@sikdjgugu

I think you underestimate the power of a physical monument, symbolizing the remorse of a country and the crimes of its ancestors. Words of apology alone can be very empty as they are retracted depending on who is in the position of power. (Insert Abe-san) With a memorial, the family and children of these comfort women can visit Japan and say "Hey look, Japan isn't shy to recognize and apologize for the faults that they did to my ancestor." I don't doubt for a minute that the new generation of people will forgive and forget as this becomes a learning opportunity for people of all countries involved. Apologies only work when they're from the heart.

Its not a bad idea, and something like that just might work. Kudos to you for trying to come up with an idea that reflects some sincere thought into the matter.

Alas I fear that the apology deniers would only complain that the monument wasn't big enough, or wasn't lavish enough, or didn't speak for all the Japanese people etc etc etc. Perhaps if every citizen in Japan contributed ten yen and they melted them all down and spelled out the words "we are sorry forever"? Nah, no matter what the apology deniers wouldn't be satisfied ... sadly that is the situation we are now in.

Hansaram

The link is what I was talking about they saw troops executing ROC troops who removed their uniform and changed into plain civilian clothes. The link also statesthe number 10~20 thousand not anywhere near the PRC official 300,000 thousand. The reporters also says nothing about raping either.

There has been NO official apology or any statements from the Japanese government!

The Japanese government DID NOT PAY for the comfort women, they set up AWF, a private non-profit organization to recompensate the comfort women. The money came from private Japanese donors. All apologies were personal apologies by the PMs, NOT the government. The Japanese government is evading the whole issue by not taking any legal responsibilities.

Alas I fear that the apology deniers would only complain that the monument wasn't big enough, or wasn't lavish enough, or didn't speak for all the Japanese people etc etc etc. Perhaps if every citizen in Japan contributed ten yen and they melted them all down and spelled out the words "we are sorry forever"? Nah, no matter what the apology deniers wouldn't be satisfied ... sadly that is the situation we are now in

Nah, you dont understand, the above idea will NEVER fly with the likes of the ldp etc etc so the citizens'd never be able as a momument to Japans atrocities..........just cant see the J-govt going for that.

And yeah that AWF was specifically designed so it wouldnt be done by the gov't, maybe one day you will recognize that ever so present trend of keeping this un-official & speeches personal but unlikely

The Japanese government apologize many times already... it's the Korean, Chinese and Taiwanese governments whose still raising eyebrows even up to now especially those in the position. There are many who accepted it already & met some few who still want & can't let go and want to keep the hate in them. Which is not good. The Japanese have reach out others accept it others don't. Scenario above are amomgst that would like to create a drama over and over again which infact majority of people who have suffered the atrocities of war long ago had moved on already and settled to have harmonious relationship with each other. One of my grandfather was a US navy who was among who suffered at death march but was helped by one of the Japanese soldiers from being burned to death. While mostly of my relatives were bayoneted and may have experienced terrible things and one of my grandmother was raped & got pregnant and my Japanese uncle is still with us. We have forgotten those things already and I never heard anything bad against towards the Japanese people from my family. I know the history since majority of my loved ones have been through it. In fact visited the places inflicted much to remember those who suffered much. It should be the basis for us now who never experienced those horror to not let it happen again as possible and learn from it not letting it dwell in us. As long we hold into it we will always be at war which definitely will no do good. Now I'm currently doing PhD here in Japan as japanese govermernment scholar. I'm from Philippines. prior here I have worked with Koreans, Taiwanese and Chinese researcher of which now my friends.

zoea7DEC. 11, 2012 - 11:32AM JST

Now I'm currently doing PhD here in Japan as japanese govermernment scholar.

Congratulation for free post graduate course. That old poor women are not lucky like you. They are struggling to foot their medial and grocery bill. If one of them is your mother or grand mother, how will you feel for their plight? Do they have to shut up and keep depending on charity or they have to beg on the road?

They are looking for financial compensation. Apology is helpful however it will not make much difference for their daily living.

You're among those who refuse to accept the apology. It depends with the politicians whose in charge with the government. Why the government of my country Philippines who suffered a lot, China, Taiwan, Korea allow the Japanese people, businessman be around? To think we are many here in Japan who benifited from Japan reaching out. Mostly of my Chinese, taiwanese, Koreans friend will still like to work here than in China or Taiwan or Korea.

What do you want then?Japanese now will take the responsibility of what happened? The government does not represent all of the people from all the country involve and for sure not all people before wanted to be at war.

All of these drama is politicaly motivated.

@zoea7DEC. 11, 2012 - 12:00PM JST

I do not need any apology from Japan. I am not from Asia. I will not gain anything from high lighting the old poor women plight. They are human being. They deserve medical care and compensation. If my employee sick and old, I am the one to foot the bill. They were former employee of J Army. Therefore J government is responsible for humanity.

I do not want anything. I have already posted before old poor women want compensation. Not from Charity. Like your scholarship, they want direct funding from Government. What' wrong with I am sympathy about them? I will not gain or lose anything for that issue. They have not many left and they are very old. Once again, they are not animals. They are human being like our mother, auntiex or grand motherx.

All of these drama is politicaly motivated.

For politicians, it is correct. Average person on the road will get nothing. It is humanity. Not about getting popularity.

at zenpun I worked with blood & sweat to where I am now. I struggled with it. My parents never even finished elementary but still able to send us to school. In short i experienced not eating in a day or settled with just salt & banana! Just live in nipa & bamboo hut. My grandparents work hard despite of those suffering afterall life goes on and they see hope in us happy war is over!

@zoe7

Congratulation again. I am not interested in your auto biography. You have suffered such hardship and suprised to notice that you have no compassion about that old poor women plight.

I have no gut to tell them they have to starve or survive with salt and banana! They are not young and strong anymore. Anyway whether they are successful or not, they have rights to pursue their interest. They have rights to high light their suffering. It is their human rights and they do not need to shut up for pleasing J government or anyone.

zoea7Dec. 11, 2012 - 12:00PM JST

@Zenpun You're among those who refuse to accept the apology.

Why would he or any others here accept anything when they can keep attacking a chosen target's reputation indefinitely? It's a gold mine especially when used in conjunction with emotional appeasements and blackmail. Repeated often enough the non-diligent masses will believe it. Look for the emotional baittrap words "poor, old, humanity, running out-of-time etc" used all over consistently like they were trained to do. Marketing 101, I took that class too.

This is nothing more than a sad political stunt from a man trying to advance his political agenda. Sadly this is backed by an online presence hoping you will get mired arguing the emotional debate which they will make sure has no end.

The Japanese government apologized multiple times and no member of the Japanese government has ever denied anything in their official capacity. The Japanese government also already paid out money to every single country it harmed in WWII. Except to the countries that waived their rights to receive compensation. Both Taiwan and the PRC for example waived the right to receive any compensation from Japan.

About Korea in detail, from wikipedia.

Twenty years after World War II, South Korea and Japan re-established diplomatic relations with the 1965 signing of the Treaty on Basic Relations. In 2005, South Korea disclosed diplomatic documents that detailed the proceedings of the treaty. Kept secret for 40 years, the documents revealed that Japan provided 500 million dollars in soft loans and 300 million in grants to South Korea as compensation for its 1910–45 occupation, and that South Korea agreed to demand no more compensation after the treaty, either at a government-to-government level or an individual-to-government level.[21] It was also revealed that the South Korean government assumed the responsibility for compensating individuals on a lump sum basis[22] while rejecting Japan's proposal for direct compensation.[23]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%E2%80%93Korea_disputes

If Korean comfort women want money, they only have to ask their own government because Japan already paid out.

@SamuraiBlue

It's true that Japanese historians think it does not reach as far as 300, 000. However, if you define 'Rape of Nanking' by including the six neighboring counties, even Japanese historians think the number of victims does reach 200,000, not 10-20 thousand. Both civilian and soldiers who remove clothes are included as some historians felt that killing war prisoners without military trial is also a form of massacre.

In an agreement with Kasahara, Fujiwara defined the duration of the Nanking Atrocities "from the commencement of Japanese attack on the Nanjing Municipality in early December 1937 until [late] March 1938 when the Japanese Army officially declared that public security was restored," and concluded "nearly 200,000 or even more soldiers and civilians"195 were massacred.

I'm not sure what you mean the report does not include rape because if you scroll down, it does said crime like rape does happen but impossible to quantify. The eyewitnesses by Japanese and foreign journalists also mention that rape does happen.

Present generation wants to stay away from war so isnt that good if they dont know everything what happened in past?

So I guess it's a good thing if Japan forget about Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombing.

Hansaram

No mostJapanese historians believes it's around 10~30 thousand and no more than 50 thousand. There is a reason why. It has to do with logistics. After a battle the troops required to conserve the usage of bullets and gasoline was scarce so battalion of 50,000 occupying a fortress city that could face counter attack did not have the luxury of going on a shooting spree. I also like to point out that they were still using horse pulled carrige to carry their heavy equipment. Another is that the sword all officers were carrying were imitations so would break/bend if you try to hack a person's neck.

Another point is maintaining seize of a city the size of Nangking did not provide the troops much private time and many officers were held up at their makeship offices to maintain all the requestions and reports.

As for the plain clothed ROC soldiers although saddening as it may sound the Geneva convetion does not shield them and potential insurgents with weapons in a walled city with many points for sniping is the last thing any troops wants within a siezed city. IJA troops probably knew that there were soldiers within the city just by see the various uniforms that were left in the battle field.

Last the total count is just BS since there is no way there were more people scattered around in the surrounding villages then the main central city.

SamuraiBlue

Does the 10-30 thousand you talking about include the six neighboring counties. If it does not, then I can see where the 10-30 thousand come from but if it does include, it actually 200,000. The 10-30 thousand figure is specifically Nanking alone but if you include the six neighboring counties, you will get larger area with bigger population involve. Yes, there are other Chinese victims outside Nanjing.

This is also where the other news article in Japan Today, it mention that 20000-200000 victims.

Japanese side pointed to “various estimates” ranging from as low as 20,000 to 200,000. http://www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/agony-endures-75-years-after-nanjing-massacre

In other words, depend on how each different individual define 'Rape of Nanking', the number of victims varied.

If you define 'Rape of Nanking' only involve the city itself, the total victims will be 10-30 thousand.

If you define 'Rape of Nanking' including the six neighboring counties, the total victims will be 200,000.

Historian Kasahara Tokushi at Tsuru University and Fujiwara Akira, a professor emeritus at Hitotsubashi University, take into account the six neighboring counties where Japanese soldiers march between Shanghai and Nanjing estimated close to 200,000 people were massacred in total.

Last the total count is just BS since there is no way there were more people scattered around in the surrounding villages then the main central city.

Actually it highly possible consider that the six neighboring counties, which range from Shanghai all the way to Nanjing, is about 302.1km. Do keep in mind we are talking about a very huge wide area.

Hansaram

First of all I apreciate the constructive argument trading information that majority lack.

Still, I do not buy the 200,000+ number.As I had posted earlier population centered in Nangking, the city had around 500,000 at it's height during that era. It is very difficult to believe that the surrounding counties had the same population.Remember it is not like the city center-suburb relation we have today. In those days beyond the city walls there were only sparsely populated village of no more than 100~300 hundred. You'll need around 100~300 villages around a 10Km radius. I also remind you that the immidiate area was a battle field right before so many villagers would have evacuated leaving many villages empty.

No I do not think it is possible if you consider common sense which lacks in many arguments to make the 200,000~300,000 figure possible.

SamuraiBlue, read my post Dec. 11, 2012 - 10:10PM . Anyway, I will repeat it again. The six neighboring counties actually range from Shanghai all the way Nanking. I google 'distance shanghai to nanjing' and the distance is about 302.1km which is a very huge wide area so actually 200,000 is possible.

Hansaram

Then that is completely impossible fore the troops were heading towards a battle zone. The troops are not going to waste bullets and the return trip is as danger filled as the outward march since they are low on bullets after fighting a battle. They will also not go aside of the general route either way either since it was not neccesary. The main objective was to conquer ROC force not the general population.

I believe you are holding a concept that the IJA was out to genocide the general chinese population which has no basis. That is pure propaganda.

SamuraiBlue, if you believe it's propaganda then I'm not going to force you to change your belief. However, do keep in mind it was Japanese historians, Kasahara Tokushi and Fujiwara Akira who propose the 200,000 estimation.

As for the reason on why troops going as far as wasting bullets, there's reason. Battle of Shanghai is the trigger.

The war in Shanghai was indeed a decisive battle that caused both sides exorbitant damages, left them with a deep-rooted loathing for each other, and begot vengeance.

Many historians today say the Battle of Shanghai nurtured the psychological conditions for Japanese soldiers to go on a berserk rampage in Nanking later on.

The CCAA held a number of army reserves who had wives and families back home. When the prolonged battle of Shanghai was finally over, those exhausted soldiers had hoped of going home.

When ordered to advance westward instead of crossing the Sea of Japan, the Imperial Army soldiers began wreaking their inflamed animosities on Chinese soldiers and civilians throughout their march to Nanking, which, according to many historians, was a prelude to the massive atrocities that would later take place in Nanking.6

In his memoirs, journalist Matsumoto Shigeharu, the Shanghai bureau chief of Domei News Agency, recalled a circulating rumor among his colleagues. "The reason that the Yanagawa Corps [the 10th Army] is advancing [to Nanking] quite rapidly is due to the tacit consent among the officers and men that they could loot and rape as they wish."7

http://www.nankingatrocities.net/Introduction/introduction.htm

Don't really care of professors that have/had a biased view.

Kasahara Tokushi is presently working at Nanjing Massacre Research Center of Nanjing Normal University and Fujiwara Akira wouldn't admit his mistake about a photo that he claimed as proof of poison gasing although later proven to be just a smoke screen.

As for looting, IJA military discipline was execution by firing squad. The rules were extremely rigid in that certain period since the troops were not conscripts during that time.

Well, SamuraiBlue, even if the photographs are proven to have mistakes, the 200,000 estimates remain and have not been proven wrong. Execution by firing squad, you can say how rigid it is but rules can always be broken and not follow.

Hansaram

Wrong it had never been proven period. Looting was a serious offence that was not taken lightly. Do you think IJA troops would take it lightly especially when they were career soldier from the start?

That is where many argument of the massacre fails. Majority of the soldiers were serious in what they were doing. There may had been outcasts but they were the exceptions not the rule.

But it's the current estimate of Rape of Nanking(six neighboring counties) total victims.

Unfortunately, what you are presenting right now is not evidence to refute. Your logic here is the firm believe that Japanese soldiers are honorable people that will NEVER commit any crime. That's not evidence. That just a bias statement. If your children been accuse of murder and you try to defend him by saying your child is a good person, that kind of argument will not work in court. You are just using the same reasoning in defending IJA. Such debate does not work.

The Japanese government DID NOT PAY for the comfort women, they set up AWF, a private non-profit organization to recompensate the comfort women. The money came from private Japanese donors. All apologies were personal apologies by the PMs, NOT the government. The Japanese government is evading the whole issue by not taking any legal responsibilities.

It appears Thomas did not comprehend hindingout's post marked Dec. 11, 2012 - 12:44AM JST

The Japanese government paid for all claims to Korea. They even set up AWF to re-compensate the comfort women. The money came from good people of Japan through private donations. The apologies are issued via resolutions, cabinet decisions (閣議決定） which are official with a seal from the Imperial Household (Emperor). The Korean government is evading the whole issue by NOT taking any legal responsibilities to the survivors. End of story.

Hansaram

But it's the current estimate of Rape of Nanking(six neighboring counties) total victims.

Estimate? Based on what I might ask?

Unfortunately, what you are presenting right now is not evidence to refute. Your logic here is the firm believe that Japanese soldiers are honorable people that will NEVER commit any crime. That's not evidence. That just a bias statement. If your children been accuse of murder and you try to defend him by saying your child is a good person, that kind of argument will not work in court. You are just using the same reasoning in defending IJA. Such debate does not work.

In court of law it is accepted as charcter witness and since there is very little material evidence to esablish a 200,000~300,000 count, circumstantial evidence would be taken heavily. In a court of law the judge would be suspicious to this case with the lack of material evidence, namely lack of body count, mass graves, mass records of ghost towns, and so on.It just doesn't add up.

The early evidence presented to the far east war tribunal by ROC wa the amount paid to the coolies to dig graves for the bodies which were found false later on and since then what you discribed had emerged to compensate the lack of bodies within the walls of Nangking.

Richard Halifax Dec. 11, 2012 - 06:52AM JST

It's a gold mine especially when used in conjunction with emotional appeasements and blackmail. Repeated often enough the non-diligent masses will believe it. Look for the emotional baittrap words "poor, old, humanity, running out-of-time etc" used all over consistently like they were trained to do. Marketing 101, I took that class too.

That topic is comfort women issue. Not about whether speaker isa evil or poster is a marketer. I am not trained by anyone else. I have no commercial or political interest for posting. Your post have insulted other people freedom of expression. How can you downgrade the honest poster as insinsere? You can not accuse as someone for emotinally black mailing for expressing their feeling. Will I can gain any penny or praise? I have already seen many thumbdowns intead of praises. Who cares! When I read all of your posts, they are almost identitcal with one of the old poster Pissofmate posts. May be he has changed as the new avatar.

This is nothing more than a sad political stunt from a man trying to advance his political agenda. Sadly this is backed by an online presence hoping you will get mired arguing the emotional debate which they will make sure has no end.

You can critize the politician for promoting his political interest. However you have no God send power to insulting other poster for their different view. In the west, most old and frail old people have been abandoned for their materialistic off spring. Their only interest is inheritance. Not about caring and supporting them. I am not one of them. I have deeply respect to elderly according my root and my culture.

Whether the heartless folk like you admire me or not, that old frail ladies will never stop fighting for their cause. Until their last breath! I will not gain or lose anything for posting the interest of defenseless. You have right to post what you think. I have right to express how I feel . You can still enjoy for posting your propaganda to that PHD student. It is doubtful that he will still enjoy your hateful lectures.

I think the main problem here is some do not understand the meaning of the word "sincere" as I said it's not about apologies or compensation but its true intention that touches the heart of the victims and onlookers.

If a person bang your car and say sorry then pay for the damages is he sincere about his mistakes? Of course not!

I'm not saying he should kneel down with everlasting apologies or pay extra to make the victim feel better, why is it people think sincerity is something that can be measured?

SamuraiBlue

Kasahara researched the damages and losses in those local areas where the Japanese troops swarmed through during the Battle of Nanking and concluded that a greater number of people were slaughtered in rural areas than inside the walled city. Given the fact that the population of the entire Special Municipality was over one million in early December, Kasahara estimated close to 200,000 people were massacred in total.194

There are definitely plenty of eye witnesses there. I already give you the link earlier. Also, do keep in mind there also many dead bodies being disposed to Yang Tze river and bodies that are destroyed by burning,or whose bodies were interred in mass grave. Burial societies and other organizations counted more than 155,000 bodies which they buried.

That these estimates are not exaggerated is borne out by the fact that burial societies and other organizations counted more than 155,000 bodies which they buried. They also reported that most of those were bound with their hands tied behind their backs. These figures do not take into account those persons whose bodies were destroyed by burning, or by throwing them into the Yangtze River, or otherwise disposed of by Japanese.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/PTO/IMTFE/IMTFE-8.html

@zenpun

I agree with you. Richard Posts did not mention anything about comfort women issue. Such as "emotional black mailing"', "constant harping for choosing target," shameful and distasteful" hateful phrases repeated often enough for bashing to Ma and debating posters. His posts are similar to opposition party question time. It is politically motivated for pleasing targeted audience. It is similar to narrated voice of movie flashback. It is unnatural as unprepared post.More likely specially trained as political commentator.

Ma comforted the comfort women. It has become unthinkable crime and he was bashed with harsh words such as distasteful, shameful, hypocrite. That bias come from superior mentality..However that politically motivated poster can not dictate other posters for surrendering him. After all his propaganda has been repeated often enough for non diligent masses to resent Ma more. In the reality, He is not a Saint. He is not a Sinner too.

If new generation of Japanese have nothing to do with their ancestors crime, Ma is also nothing to do with his party old crimes. Otherwise, it is hypocrite and double standard.

The number of women raped was said by Westerners who were there to be 20,000, and there were widespread accounts of civilians being hacked to death.

Another who tried to help was an American woman, Minnie Vautrin, who kept a diary which has been likened to that of Anne Frank.Her entry for 16 December reads: "There probably is no crime that has not been committed in this city today. Thirty girls were taken from the language school [where she worked] last night, and today I have heard scores of heartbreaking stories of girls who were taken from their homes last night - one of the girls was but 12 years old."

Later, she wrote: "How many thousands were mowed down by guns or bayoneted we shall probably never know. For in many cases oil was thrown over their bodies and then they were burned."

He wrote about rape and other brutalities which occurred even in the middle of the supposedly protected area.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/223038.stm

There is no doubt that the Japanese behaved in ways similar to the Nazis - although, oddly, Japan harbored Jews against Hitler's wishes. But the only thing I would ask of Japan is that the history not be hidden. Beyond that all the apologies and compensation in the world aren't going to stop the nationalistic pronouncements of politicians in China or Korea. Every time there's a problem at home it's "bring up the evil Japanese and what they did up to 1945. Gets the locals to forget what an awful job the politicians are doing here and now. Enough already!

to the people like Ma and other Japan basher regarding apology for WW2, it is already annoying and shame on you that you always use this issue for your own popularity and other self-interest in your country.

Well, Japan these days can only reply to you with this:

http://www.textfiles.com/art/afinger.txt http://berrymii.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/kid-w-middle-finger.jpg?w=414

In these times, in the age of the Internet, there is NO excuse for Japanese not to educate themselves more about their own history. Although I do imagine that there are probably very few accurate articles in Japanese on the sex slave history. Japan needs some brave journalists or historians who are willing to inoculate the Japanese public with the real truth. It's high time that happened. Germany did it long ago. Japan can too.

Although I do imagine that there are probably very few accurate articles in Japanese on the sex slave history. Japan needs some brave journalists or historians who are willing to inoculate the Japanese public with the real truth.

Try this one (though it's in English). Even if you ultimately reject this professor's findings, you owe it to yourself to view all sides of the issue before making your decision:

http://www.sdh-fact.com/CL02_1/39_S4.pdf

This is 2012, not 1939. Move on.

Good for Taiwan. They deserve at least an apology. I hope Japan continues to see that it is wise to be humble and acknowledge the truth of Japanese atrocities. Bow now not Bonzai.

"While mostly of my relatives were bayoneted and may have experienced terrible things and one of my grandmother was raped & got pregnant and my Japanese uncle is still with us. We have forgotten those things already and I never heard anything bad against towards the Japanese people from my family."

I would say that your family is exceptionally forgiving. If a Chinese said the same thing, there would be many rightwingers who would accuse you of lying.

If North Korean invaded tomorrow and did the same thing to Japanese families, do you think they would just forget it, say that in war stuff happens, and never criticize North Koreans?

Like I said, you have an amazing family. I hope you realize it.

Well, when economy is bad everybody want to be apologized and ask for extra payments.

Another election and another round of self serving politicians using the same "Tried and true" method of generating coverage ... BASH JAPAN.

I wonder if Taiwan remembers the enormous amount of aid and support it has given to them over many years?

I also wonder if China has ever apologised for the 100,000+ Tibetans that were killed during the Cultural Revolution?

Never mind, let's keep bashing Japan, because POLITICALLY, that's the easiest thing to do.

Apologizing is a responsibility Japan has to acknowledge. Germany apologized many decades ago for the genocide and the people of Europe no longer have issues. Japan did wrong, apologize publicly, compensate the victims and move on. Nothing to do with China now and the elections. This has been a slap in the face to Asians for 70 years. Denying what happened only enrages people more.

Why do people continue to look behind them instead of forward? Why do they love to bring up the past, only to blame it on others? OK, not just Japan, but every country did wrongs during WW2 that they are not proud of and they just don't want to talk about. But that was more than 70 years ago. Honestly, its time to let go of the hate towards one another that our ancestors had. Its all in the past, and we have the present heading towards the future. Its not right to let such things come between good people. Yes we have our opinions, but don't announce them when you know they could hurt another. I apologize if I seem out of place to say such things, but its food for thought.

I think ,like all of you guys, i love Japan. Thats why we spend our time reading this great website, called Japantoday

And also i think nowadays everyone can access to worldwide information through internet, and get different perspectives of any specific matter, and get his/her own conclusions

So it is quite easy to find that a majority of WWII historians from all over the world has the opinion that Japan's war crimes (massacres, experiments, massive rape/sexual slavery , cannibalism,...) were equal to those of Nazi in terms of atrocities and numbers

So we should ask ourselves

why nowadays Germany has not those problems with other countries?

Is it boz of the prime minister/chancelor Kneeling Apology, the Law against denial and Education?

And

China, Korea, Philippines, Taiwan, Indonesia, Vietnam, and so on All their perspectives are wrong ? Only japanese perspective about this matter is truth or maybe the other countries still have some reasons to complain?

Just think about and find your own conclusions comparing information from different sources/countries

Peace