politics

U.S. experts blame both Japan, S Korea for tensions

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By MATTHEW PENNINGTON

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Japan has continually made overtures to So Korea for dialogue - which have been haughtily spurned by the current regime there. . .And USA should tone down its rhetoric when speaking of atrocities- - --bc we also ought not forget that while American men of Japanese descent were fighting on the European front in WWII in the 42 Infantry Regiment - - - - , their families were struggling with the indignity of interment camps, having been ripped out of their homes . .( in Canada as well)

3 ( +21 / -17 )

The US has the right to blame these countries that resulted in a stronger China-Korea ties. Soon, Korean alliance with the US will falter.

-6 ( +7 / -13 )

Japan has continually made overtures to So Korea for dialogue

But you failed to finish the sentence. It should be,

Japan has continually made overtures to So Korea for dialogue but at the same time called the Korean comfort women prostitutes, reversed and undermined the 1993 Kono apology, allowed hate movements and speeches against Koreans in Japan to go unopposed to the point now it's out of control, they (government officials) couldn't close their mouths from speaking horrible comments with no implications, and to top it all of, continually flung a big fat "F-you" finger across to Korea. Other then those little missing details, yes, Japan did offer to hold a dialogue with Korea.

-12 ( +13 / -25 )

He urged pragmatic cooperation, although he noted a growing sense of “Korea fatigue” in Japan over the criticism from Seoul.

"Korea Fatigue" not only from Japan but from pretty much everyone following Asian geopolitics. Add to that a sense of hijacking of US national politics with these statues of "comfort women" popping up here.

10 ( +20 / -11 )

"we also ought not forget that while American men of Japanese descent were fighting on the European front in WWII in the 42 Infantry Regiment - - - - , their families were struggling with the indignity of interment camps, having been ripped out of their homes."

Your moral equivalency argument might be relevant if the Americans had shipped the girls and women to brothels and tortured and beheaded the men.

-15 ( +11 / -26 )

I do not speak for the Politicians or my Government but sometimes there are more important things than what USA "want's"...or in their "Best Interest's"...Every Great Empire in history seem's to go broke and vanish when they continually support War after War after War, and this military industrial complex money making machine. Now is the time to plan a world involved project that would bring us all together for the right reasons. Space Exploration, Deep Sea Research, Medicine's with nano technology, and the like...

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Sharp differences on historical issues that have strained relations between Japan and South Korea require Tokyo to face up to its abusive wartime past and for Seoul to be less preoccupied with it, U.S. experts and former officials say.

Exactly what posters like myself, smithinjapan and globalwatcher have been saying for years. But just as in the actual relations between the two countries, the "haters" dominate the crowd here, and so nothing positive comes out of it.

-5 ( +10 / -15 )

Semperfi@It was the 442nd regimental combat team, if I'm not mistaken.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Japan has continually made overtures to So Korea for dialogue but at the same time called the Korean comfort women prostitutes, reversed and undermined the 1993 Kono apology blah blah blah.

Its no wonder Japan can't get any traction with the ROK when the koreans have repeated the same lies so often that they've begun to believe they are the truth.

One guy called some of the comfort women "prostitutes". It may be that many more Japanese agree with him, but they haven't voiced that opinion out loud. Its beyond comprehension that the government of ROK will hold up an isolated comment and declare it to be official government policy in reference to all of the comfort women. By that logic can we be confident in saying that all Australians think of the Chinese as "mongrels"? It just doesn't make sense. I've seen primary school kids with better reasoning skills than the ROK government.

Second comment is flat out false. Kono statement has never been "reversed". Nor has it been "undermined". Abe administration has taken great pains to state that they will uphold the Kono statement as the twenty seventh apology tendered. I think the ROK wants to pretend that the Kono statement has been revoked because the whole world now knows that the government of ROK was an active participant in drafting the statement. Japan wanted to use the words that would once and for all end this nonsense so they asked the "experts" in ROK to assist them with the wording.

Course, like we all expected, the ink wasn't even dry when the ROK started up its bleating all over again ...

7 ( +18 / -11 )

Second comment is flat out false. Kono statement has never been "reversed". Nor has it been "undermined". Abe administration has taken great pains to state that they will uphold the Kono statement as the twenty seventh apology tendered. I think the ROK wants to pretend that the Kono statement has been revoked because the whole world now knows that the government of ROK was an active participant in drafting the statement. Japan wanted to use the words that would once and for all end this nonsense so they asked the "experts" in ROK to assist them with the wording.

Excellent summary.

Not only in "assisting", they assured that the issue will be settled completely if "Japan does this, and that" which the Japanese counterparts COMPLIED. But nooooo.

This exchange is all revealed in the Kono review report which the usual bashing crowd has yet to read. But if one were just able to read through it, they'll realize that despite complete lack of evidence to support these ex Korean comfort womens' accusations, the Japanese government went ahead and apologized and offered compensation anyways.

Now with the retraction by Asahi on the past comfort women articles which includes falsehood of Yoshida's statement and the misrepresentation of Teishintai, many in the past who were sympathetic towards them are doing about face. The mass media (in prior years, Asahi) were able to turn the consensus into one direction and now also worked itself to go to another direction.

5 ( +16 / -11 )

The Republic of Korea has become a good friend with the Peoples Republic of China. A nation that invaded them and did everything possible to destroy them. So what did the communists do to their civilian population? The PRC has never apologized to the ROK. The PRC has never paid damages to the ROK and yet no matter what Japan does they will not accept friendship overtures. If the Republic of Korea likes the Peoples Republic of China so much perhaps you should reject both Japan and the United States and become their ally.

5 ( +12 / -7 )

'Experts,' right.

A true expert will blame SK mostly for their incessant and childish displays of anti Japan antagonism. From establishing comfort women memorials overseas, to trotting out comfort women at every single chance to 'shame' Japanese, only an ignoramus would blame Japan.

7 ( +15 / -8 )

Ultra doctrinaire forces like Chongdaehyop should have stopped while they were ahead. (I explained their role in greater detail in another thread). The JPN government would not have felt compelled to revisit the circumstances leading to the Kono Statement if Chongdaehyop and the like hadn't kept insisting (post Kono Statement), with greater and greater venom over the years that ALL of the comfort women had been COERCED into sexual slavery. Research clearly shows some of the comfort women had indeed been prostitutes looking for work, some had been sold by family to pay off debts, and yes, some (especially later in the war), were tricked or coerced. But regardless of HOW they were recruited, the Japanese government was prepared to apologize to ALL former comfort women and offer them some form of compensation (even though Japan had already given SK compensatory funds for conscripted workers in 1965). It was not the JPN government that was fixated on whether the women volunteered or were forced. JPN was prepared to admit that the comfort woman system was WRONG period.

In my opinion, the fact that the SK government participated in crafting the Kono Statement was a positive thing. It shows that Japan was willing to work with SK to produce an apology that would protect the honor of the comfort women and satisfy the SK government, without admitting to something that was not true. The Kono Statement says that there is evidence that there was coercion in recruiting the women. This phrasing was a diplomatic compromise. The phrasing acknowledges that an element of coercion did exist without saying coercion existed across the board. The phrasing was just vague enough that it would help save face and reputation of any of the women who had actually been prostitutes when recruited.

This statement by Cabinet Minister Kono, and reinforced by many Prime Ministers thereafter should have been the end of the Korean comfort woman matter. But Chongdaehyop and the like continued to be fixated on getting Japan to admit that ALL comfort women had been coerced. When individual JPN politicians and scholars (including Korean scholars) ried to correct that mistaken notion they were accused of "splitting hairs." But who was the one who made a huge deal about HOW the comfort women were recruited in the first place. Japan was offering a written apology, atonement money, and health and welfare services to ALL of them, regardless of whether they had volunteered or were coerced.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

Most Americans with common sense have stop listening to the drivel coming out ultra right The Heritage Foundation.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/heritage-foundation

5 ( +8 / -3 )

Seems like the US blames "tin-eared, ham-fisted"Japan much more than "historical" South Korea.

-7 ( +4 / -11 )

US wants Japan to mend ties...but after the last president said that he will make the emperor grovel and then he will step on his neck and humiliate him, Japan simply lost their patience. There is no turning back SK.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

So just to be clear, what exactly do the South Koreans want Japan to do? Another apology? More money? What?

7 ( +9 / -2 )

@Thunderbird

I think if the Diet would pass a bill unanimously, expressing regret for Japan's wartime actions, that would go a long way to pacifying both Korea and China. It would also raise Japan's image in the eyes of the entire world.

Sadly, it's not going to happen any time soon.

0 ( +6 / -6 )

Papi: "Japan has continually made overtures to So Korea for dialogue but at the same time called the Korean comfort women prostitutes, reversed and undermined the 1993 Kono apology, allowed hate movements and speeches against Koreans in Japan to go unopposed to the point now it's out of control, they (government officials) couldn't close their mouths from speaking horrible comments with no implications, and to top it all of, continually flung a big fat "F-you" finger across to Korea. Other then those little missing details, yes, Japan did offer to hold a dialogue with Korea."

Exactly, Papi. What people here like to do is cut and edit immediately after Japan's attempts at dialogue. It was like the last time they tried with China, saying, "We are looking for diplomatic dialogue and to increase relations with China... but there is NO island issue! China needs to 'cooperate' and 'understand'". In other words, Japan's idea of dialogue is to sit and listen to what they demand, no questions asked, then when the other parties refuse to talk under such conditions say, "We are the victims! We tried to talk but they won't!", etc.

The US is right on this -- BOTH nations are responsible for the tensions, and both China and Japan for tensions between those two. It's not a one-way street and never was. You don't have one-way dialogue, and you don't say you want 'discussion' that involves the other party simply listening without questions.

Thunderbird: "So just to be clear, what exactly do the South Koreans want Japan to do? Another apology?"

If you need to ask, you'll always need to deal with the complaints. Even if you pretend to genuinely not know and ask a former sex-slave what she wants, and then you turn around and say, "Gee! I'm sorry already! Okay?? That good enough?? Gawd! Stop the whining!", would you honestly consider that a genuine apology? (especially when the governement said there is nothing to apologize for if not denying flat out what happened)

-12 ( +6 / -18 )

If you need to ask, you'll always need to deal with the complaints. Even if you pretend to genuinely not know and ask a former sex-slave what she wants, and then you turn around and say, "Gee! I'm sorry already! Okay?? That good enough?? Gawd! Stop the whining!", would you honestly consider that a genuine apology? (especially when the governement said there is nothing to apologize for if not denying flat out what happened)

I don't think the Japanese government nor the general public are in the mood do such thing for some are calling for 'heads to roll' including Kono, Mizuho, and Asahi. Especially with the latter being retracted, many have severe doubts about the former comfort women's 'accusations'.

7 ( +12 / -5 )

Klingner said the evidence of atrocities by imperial Japan between 1910 and 1945 is “unequivocal and overwhelming and for anyone in Japan to question Tokyo’s responsibility really historically inaccurate and morally reprehensible.”

THIS is where ALL Japans problems with China, the Korea's etc stem from, to this day Japan is NOT able to deal with what IT DID during WWII................

If Japan DID deal with it then neither China nor the Korea's would have any reason to bitch & complain, all pretty simple really!

-5 ( +4 / -9 )

I have much experience working in all of the United States, Japan, and South Korea. The attitudes between civilians and government are incoherent within each of these countries. It is difficult to generalize any sort of attitude that a prospective country fosters just because the government had made particular statements or actions.

That being said,

I would like to make a reminder that South Korea is a country with a history of oppression. It is nation that strove to retain traditions and identity as peoples all throughout colonization attempts by the northern China, eastern Japan, and (arguably although most consider it preferable) by the western United States.

I believe asking to seek repentance is certainly acceptable. It is a basic courtesy even between two persons who had undergone certain relationship tensions; better yet this is a conflict between entire nations not just two persons. Facing the mistakes made in history is of utmost necessity for any well thought out future relations. That Japan is unwilling to do so in timely and sincere manner, very relatively in comparison to how much they value social courtesy and respect to one another, is the largest concern for South Korean citizens who believe that the Japanese government is too indifferent about such humanly issues all the while enforcing materialistic issues of politics and economics. It is of virtue to repent, seek forgiveness, and forgive (for both nations) in order to promise any future ties. History is merely evidence that the first step to apology and repentance should be taken by Japan, and is not an obsession that upcoming generations of Korea will always hold on to - if righteous actions are taken.

Sex slavery is one thing. Colonization by Imperialist Japan had been much more brutal... Biological, chemical, moral, and more. We still live in an era where the elderly generation are direct victims of such events, and Japanese attitude today just does not do justice.

-7 ( +4 / -11 )

Some posts are examples of the pure hatred towards Japan, an extremist view which denies that Japan has apologized, has made payment, has made any efforts to atone for it's relation with Korea. This is obviously blatantly false as there would be no 1965 Treaty between Japan and South Korea, it would not have included monies for conscripted individuals. There would have been no Asian Womens Fund, and if indeed the 1993 Kono Statement was "not" an apology then South Korea would not have complained that it was going to be reviewed. The article contains various opinions none of which are the official position of the United States. What is evident is that it is NOT Japan that has and continues to refuse head of state meetings. And it is NOT Japan that is destabilizing US strategic policy in the region by coddling up to China. Today more and more Americans are beginning to question the value of our security agreement with South Korea.

6 ( +13 / -7 )

"the two main American allies in Asia, which play host to a total of 80,000 U.S. forces"

69 years since the end of WW2 and 61 years since the end of the Korean War there are still 80,000 U.S. military personnel in Japan and Korea...

2 ( +2 / -0 )

can anyone scan and post a page from any textbook anywhere in Japan that discusses Japan's WW2 atrocities? Reference to the Kono statement? Wondering if the J-public is being educated whatsoever.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

AlexNoaburd, They're not.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

For those who are discrediting the relation between the US asnd S.K,(most of those rubbishes are pure fantasy if not wishful-thinking in the first palce) the reality is the US today has stronger reasons to maintian ties with S.K t ever before given the N.K’s nuclear ambition is on the rise and a stealthy Chinese regime is looking for the opportunity to drive a wedge between Japan and S,K.

Japan, on the other hands, is where the US keeps eyes on since Abe is catering the madman - Kim Jong-un’s needs.

-8 ( +3 / -11 )

Besides Comfort women issue, SK makes noise over Yasukuni shrine, Takeshima, Japan's flag, Name of See of Japan, and many other historical things whatever SK feel like to harass Japan with. So, it is pointless for Japan to try to settle any of these.

10 ( +13 / -3 )

This article is so blindingly obvious - that Japan needs to face it's wartime past more openly and honesty and SK needs to stop obsessing - but it seems totally lost on the majority of posters on this thread. I'm not sure what group of society many of you represent but we hardly need to guess.

-4 ( +5 / -9 )

"Besides Comfort women issue, SK makes noise over Yasukuni shrine, Takeshima, Japan's flag, Name of See of Japan, and many other historical things whatever SK feel like to harass Japan with. So, it is pointless for Japan to try to settle any of these."

That's pretty much the attitude now. The less Japan deals with them, the better. A welcoming sight, finally.

6 ( +11 / -5 )

I blame the US for not for coddling Japan with Article Nine and not compelling Japan to make amends like Germany did, and forcing Japan to join a North East Asia Treaty Organization.

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

@jerseyboy

Exactly what posters like myself, smithinjapan and globalwatcher have been saying for years. But just as in the actual relations between the two countries, the "haters" dominate the crowd here, and so nothing positive comes out of it.

It seams you didn't understand this sentence from Victor Cha, former director for Asian affairs in the time of presidency of George W. Bush in White House

he noted a growing sense of "Korea fatigue" in Japan over the criticism from Seoul.

Constant criticism and trashing coming non stop from Korea , they spam for change the name of Sea of Japan into East Sea , then posting numerous comfort statues all over the US , making exhibition in France of drawing that show how Japan soldiers tortured comfort women , and not to forget the most hideous attempts to claim all that is noteworthy from Japan culture,is actually of Korean origin , this is something that will create the rift between two countries for centuries to come . This things are what create " Korean fatigue " , but my personal opinion is that still majority of Japan people don't know how much Korea is trashing Japan .

5 ( +9 / -4 )

JTDanManAug. 22, 2014 - 12:23AM JST I blame the US for not for coddling Japan with Article Nine

Article 9 was put in to satisfy the other allied victor nations who wanted to prosecute the Emperor. It was in our interest to keep the Emperor in place, albeit as a "symbol", in order to ensure that no civil war would occur that would allow the Soviets to get their foot into the door.

and not compelling Japan to make amends like Germany did,

Apart from the question of how the U.S.or any country can "compel" another to make amends; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan http://www.jiyuushikan.org/e/reparations.html

and forcing Japan to join a North East Asia Treaty Organization.

What is this North East Asia Treaty Organization?

2 ( +8 / -6 )

Recently at the National Press Club interview Mr Abe flat out denied to acknowledge Japan invaded and colonized Korea & China... he said it is not his job as PM to acknowledge History, that is the job for the Historians... This is clearly a case where an intruder encroaching on neighbors and committing horrible crimes returning years later and begin mocking the victims by flat out denying the criminal acts. There is absolutely no excuse for the kind of behavior displayed by the Japanese Prime Minister and also it is ludicrous for so called foreign experts passing judgments to people who have suffered so much and telling them to check their emotions while being aggravated by belligerent and indifferent Politician.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

tokyodoumoAug. 22, 2014 - 03:07AM JST Recently at the National Press Club interview Mr Abe flat out denied to acknowledge Japan invaded and colonized >Korea & China

Well he was right. Japan invaded China. But they didn't invade Korea, they annexed it and colonized it, When Japan was invading Chins there were Korean troops and officers in the IJA.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

So not one person here can find one page from all the textbooks in Japan which discusses Japan's ww2 atrocities? Well is it any wonder Korea and China are angry?

-6 ( +2 / -8 )

This bickering between Korea and Japan is a cancer in region.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Ossan

To what "other allied nations" do you refer?

The US defeated Japan. The Occupation was exclusively American, primarily by Mac -- until Truman sacked his @ss for insubordination.

Before that, Mac put in Art. 9 to keep Japan permanently subjugated to US power. That was an terrible error.

Unlike Germany, Japan remain isolated from her former victims. Unlike Germany, Japan did not join a NATO-like mutual defense league (sponsored by US power). Instead of a NEATO, we have the Hub and Spokes arrangement: a series primarily bi-lateral US security treaties with all the nations in East and Asia Pacific.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@tokyodoumoAug. 22, 2014 - 03:07AM JST Recently at the National Press Club interview Mr Abe flat out denied to acknowledge Japan invaded and colonized >Korea & China@

.................................................................................................................

Abe denied because Japan did not invade Korea. Japan stole Korea Japanese language is Shokumin-chi. Sshiku is plant, Min is people. Chi is land, Hirobumi Irtoh,who was aassaddinated later was fluent in English and he did not like word, colony as it applied to England, Spain Etc because Japan did not send a whole bunch ot Japanese people. Itoh was from Yamaguchi-ken. Ws used to rumor that Nashimo-tonomiya Princess Masako was given to Korea to steal Korea during WW II in Japan,

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

Abe denied because Japan did not invade Korea. Japan stole Korea Japanese language is Shokumin-chi. Sshiku is plant, Min is people. Chi is land, Hirobumi Irtoh,who was aassaddinated later was fluent in English and he did not like word, colony as it applied to England, Spain Etc because Japan did not send a whole bunch ot Japanese people. Itoh was from Yamaguchi-ken. Ws used to rumor that Nashimo-tonomiya Princess Masako was given to Korea to steal Korea during WW II in Japan,

Annexation. "Hei-go". They voted. They elected their own officials.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

@nigelboy: Japan did not use such nwce word ad HeiGo during WWII. Chosen Touryaku. etc. As for mass murder, just , GyakuSatsu is just used. Shina ShinrRyaku, Tairiku Touha, Japan that time was very proud of what they were doing.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

but they didn't invade Korea?

Although it used force.

Both the protectorate and the annexation treaties were declared void in the 1965 Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea because both treaties were obtained under threat of force, and that the Korean Emperor, whose Royal Assent was required to validate and finalize any legislation or diplomatic agreement under Korean law of the period, refused to sign the document.

5 ( +9 / -4 )

JTDanMan: Before that, Mac put in Art. 9 to keep Japan permanently subjugated to US power. That was an terrible error.

I don't see how that's an error. Seems to have worked. If US had pulled back at any time, Japan would have a lot harder time of it now.

It's not like they're sitting on the balmy coast of South America like no-standing-army surrounded-by-Nicaragua-and-Panama Costa Rica (which even so has USA on offer to protect it, according to Wikipedia "In case of war in Costa Rica, the United States has offered their military to use at Costa Rica's disposal.").

They're in the middle of a bunch of countries who have lots of historically-proven reasons to hate them. And their moat's not that wide.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

JTDanMan: Japan's and Korea's mote ...

Yes and no. Germany was split in two and its old capital West Berlin surrounded by East Germany. Changes the whole equation, and not much US could do with that.

If Russia had taken Hokkaido and north half of Honshu, situation in Japan might have turned out similar to Germany's. But more likely we'd be looking at fully Communist Korea and Japan by now, if that had happened. Red East Asia turned Red down to Thailand and Malaysia, with no green spots.

Instead, US occupied Japan and gave it back mostly whole a bit later and Russia got a few Kurils.

Can't really picture China going for an East Asia version of NATO. Especially Communist China.

I guess you mean US should have leaned a lot harder on Japan? Like Russia may have on East Germany? So Japan'd be more humble?

If US was ever in the business of dictating the history textbooks for Germany and Japan, they definitely aren't now.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

JTDanManAug. 22, 2014 - 07:04AM JST Ossan To what "other allied nations" do you refer? The US defeated Japan. The Occupation was exclusively American, primarily by Mac -- until Truman sacked his @ss >for insubordination.

Australia, USSR, Netherlands wanted to see Hirohito prosecuted as a War Criminal. The US felt it wasn't in long term interests to do so, Hence we came up with Article 9 to keep them quiet, The purpose of the occupation was not just to dismantle the Japanese war machine but to establish a democratic anti-communist government. Douglas MacArthur was already looking at the Soviets as the next "enemy" when he landed in Atsugi. Just as Pstton saw them as the enemy when entering Berlin.

Before that, Mac put in Art. 9 to keep Japan permanently subjugated to US power. That was an terrible error.

It wasn't put in to keep them subjugated. Just 5 years after WWII ended MacArthur was already talking about reviving the Japanese ,military to go fight on the Korean Peninsula. In fact elements of the old Imperial Navy were covertly used in Korea.

Unlike Germany, Japan remain isolated from her former victims. Unlike Germany, Japan did not join a NATO-like >mutual defense league (sponsored by US power). Instead of a NEATO, we have the Hub and Spokes arrangement: a >series primarily bi-lateral US security treaties with all the nations in East and Asia Pacific.

The only former victim from which Japan remained isolated is the PRC, and as soon as they opened up, Japan signed the Sino-Japanese Treaty of Peace and Friendship in 1972 which was reaffirmed in 1978. China is simply violating every aspect of that treaty today. South Korea wasn't a victim in the same sense, they were a Japanese colony and part of the empire, But again, they signed a peace treaty in 1965 which they are ignoring and violating today. Japan has not remained isolated from the rest of Asia who were victims in WWII. Japan could not join a NEATO even if they wanted to because it doesn't exist. South Korea's recent anti-Japan position and open closeness with China represent the biggest obstruction to S strategic policy in he region as well as posing the biggest obstacle to the formation of your hypothetical NEATO. It's really about time we told South Korea that either they stop obstructing US strategic policy or they can defend themselves from now on.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

Why can't US tell Japan has done nothing wrong for this tension bet Japan and SK? Americans are so simple minded, not careful people that they easily get instilled hatred againt Japan by SK and China.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

@tinawatanabeAUG. 22, 2014 - 01:08PM JST

Why can't US tell Japan has done nothing wrong for this tension bet Japan and SK? Americans are so simple minded, not careful people that they easily get instilled hatred againt Japan by SK and China.

Because they are vitally interested in fueling tensions between Japan and SK. They use an old concept Divide Et Impera (Divide and Rule) in their foreign policy. Unstable, weaked countries having tensions between them pose no any serious threat to the USA. That is why they constantly critisize visits of Japanese politicians in Yasukuni Shrine. That is why statues of "comfort women" are erected here and there in the USA and even approved by authorities in some states.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

The US has nothing to gain from keeping Japan and South Korea divided. In fact the division hinders US strategic policy in East Asia, which obviously has China and North Korea in mind. Nor are Japan and South Korea nations that the US would feel threatened by even if they were completely aligned, The US does not "constantly criticize" Yasukuni visits. The Comfort Women monuments in he US are the result of ultra nationalist Korean-American groups and American vote whore politicians to whom Chinese, Skoreans, Japanese all look alike so they must be the same.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

US experts blaming everyone but themselves? what a surprise....<=Sarcasm

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Kono statement has never been "reversed". Nor has it been "undermined". Abe administration has taken great pains to state that they will uphold the Kono statement as the twenty seventh apology tendered.

Yet the government has never gotten itself together to put out an official apology. There have only been a bunch of politicians who have given their own apologetic opinion (and good on them). Unfortunately there have been just as many politicians, if not more, who have undermined those apologetic opinions, including the current prime minister who himself has undermined the Kono statement.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Japan could not join a NEATO even if they wanted to because it doesn't exist.

That is the point. We failed to set up a NEATO in the 1950s. And that was a failure in long-term planning. We made that mistake because we single-handedly ran the show. Our allies were irrelevant. Because, unlike in Europe, they had no power.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

@nigelboy: Japan did not use such nwce word ad HeiGo during WWII. Chosen Touryaku. etc. As for mass murder, just , GyakuSatsu is just used. Shina ShinrRyaku, Tairiku Touha, Japan that time was very proud of what they were doing.

韓國"倂合"ニ關スル條約 (Kankoku HEIGO に関する条約)

http://www.geocities.jp/nakanolib/joyaku/jm43-4.htm

Both the protectorate and the annexation treaties were declared void in the 1965 Treaty on Basic Relations between Japan and the Republic of Korea because both treaties were obtained under threat of force, and that the Korean Emperor, whose Royal Assent was required to validate and finalize any legislation or diplomatic agreement under Korean law of the period, refused to sign the document.

General power of attorney to Lee Wan-Yong signed and sealed by Sunjong

http://cala.unex.es/cala/epistemowikia/index.php?title=Imagen:General_power_of_attorney_to_Lee_Wan-Yong_signed_and_sealed_by_Sunjong.jpg

0 ( +4 / -4 )

@nigelboy: I was writing the newspapers release befor 1945. Dont't you know Asahi, Maininchi were publishiers before 1945? Nobody said heigo then, Look at Japanese books, mangas, kami-shibai, and newpapers that time before you write Kankoku Heigo. Kankoku is new, It was Chosen until Japan lost WW II. Chosen, No Kankoku, Everybody said Chosen and Chosne-jin. No one said Kankoku until we lost war.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

@nigelboy: I was writing the newspapers release befor 1945. Dont't you know Asahi, Maininchi were publishiers before 1945? Nobody said heigo then, Look at Japanese books, mangas, kami-shibai, and newpapers that time before you write Kankoku Heigo. Kankoku is new, It was Chosen until Japan lost WW II. Chosen, No Kankoku, Everybody said Chosen and Chosne-jin. No one said Kankoku until we lost war.

Chosun-->After Treaty of Shimonoseki, independ Korea became "韓国”

And I just gave you the actual text to the agreement with "Heigo" and for some unknown reason, you defy with god knows whatever.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

It is never Chosun - chosen such as Choen Yo-boh im Japan. The time if you ate garlixc,. your fellow classmates advised you will reincarnate as garlic. Don't tell me Japanese govt't never tried to brainwash us before war was over.

-5 ( +2 / -7 )

朝鮮国 (spelled 'Chosun' by Koreans as in Chosun Ilbo)--->大韓帝国 (略称 韓国)--After annexation 朝鮮 

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Unril WW II was over, Gemany Doitsu, Doitsu-jin, Italy Itaria Itaria-jin. China Shina Shina-jin Eengland Igirisu Igirisu-jin, etc. Korea Chosen Chosenjin, Never Kan-koku

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JTDanManAug. 22, 2014 - 11:51PM JST "Japan could not join a NEATO even if they wanted to because it doesn't exist." That is the point. We failed to set up a NEATO in the 1950s. And that was a failure in long-term planning. We made >that mistake because we single-handedly ran the show. Our allies were irrelevant. Because, unlike in Europe, they >had no power.

I agree that in retrospect it was a huge failure on our part. But I don't think we can call it a "mistake" in the 1950s. Because as you correctly point out, Asia was a different ball game than Europe. Asia remained "post WWII" until the 70s for Japan and 80s for others to rise economically. That we failed to do anything from that point onwards is coming back to kick us in the butt in the form of a militant and threatening China. The worst of it is our present response under a diplomatically weak administration. While State Dept tries to keep everyone happy, China is ripping our Far East alliance apart.

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The annexation document of 1910 between Japan and Korea has king Sunjong's privy seal used for administrative approval but the document lacks the seal of Korea which was required to make it a legal document.

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OssanAmerica Aug. 23, 2014 - 08:09AM JST But I don't think we can call it a "mistake" in the 1950s. Because as you correctly point out, Asia was a different ball game than Europe.

Big change was In 1960 when the Soviets unilaterally withdraw one million troops, about one-third of the Soviet army from Eastern Europe and invite NATO to respond in kind.

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Because they are vitally interested in fueling tensions between Japan and SK. They use an old concept Divide Et Impera (Divide and Rule) in their foreign policy. Unstable, weaked countries having tensions between them pose no any serious threat to the USA. That is why they constantly critisize visits of Japanese politicians in Yasukuni Shrine. That is why statues of "comfort women" are erected here and there in the USA and even approved by authorities in some states.

I’m afraid I would have to disagree with all of this.

Quite the opposite, the US has been trying to encourage closer cooperation between Seoul and Tokyo for some time – understandably realizing that any provocation or major contingency started by nKorea would require very close coordination; for missile defense, for evacuation of citizens, for security of sea lanes of communication, etc. And that’s just militarily, they have been encouraging closer political, economic and social ties also.

You mistake the US media and general public with official policy of the US government. Up until last year’s visit by Abe, no US administration has openly criticized a PMs visit to Yasukuni (though the media has). Last year was unique for a special reason, VP Biden on his visit to Tokyo specifically relayed the US government, and President Obama’s personal request, that Abe not visit Yasukuni to help repair SKorea and Chinese relations – he spurned that request and went anyway, forcing the administration to say publically what the said privately one month earlier.

There are 435 members of Congress – how many have advocated putting “Comfort Women” memorials and statues in their districts – 3-4? And these come from districts that are heavily Korean-American. The Congressman that sponsored the legislation earlier this year requesting the administration to encourage the GOJ to acknowledge the issue and apologize was Rep Mike Honda from CA – a Japanese-American.
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The annexation document of 1910 between Japan and Korea has king Sunjong's privy seal used for administrative approval but the document lacks the seal of Korea which was required to make it a legal document.

Nope. The customs of international law does not require heads of states to sign all state to state agreements. Secondly, the document basically grants all powers to those documents to Lee wan Yong which makes your argument moot.

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@nigelboyAUG. 23, 2014 - 05:10AM JST 朝鮮国 (spelled 'Chosun' by Koreans as in Chosun Ilbo)--->大韓帝国 (略称 韓国)--After annexation 朝鮮

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

Japanese used Japanese language but not /Korean language,  

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the US has been trying to encourage closer cooperation between Seoul and Tokyo

By criticizing Japan?

Abe not visit Yasukuni to help repair SKorea and Chinese relations

Japan knows not visiting Yasukuni DOES NOT help repair the relations. US should stop visiting Arlington if it tells Japan to stop visiting the shrine.

heavily Korean-American....Rep Mike Honda from CA – a Japanese-American

So, what? So is it OK to aggravate the situation?

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By criticizing Japan?

Yes, and SKorea (and China) when warranted. And note that the criticism goes both ways;

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/kyodo-news-international/140219/abe-aide-hits-back-at-us-over-criticism-yasukuni-visit

But one criticism doesn't amount to much when compared with all the trilateral efforts the US is and has taken to bring Japan and SKorea together. Do you really think the meeting outlined in the link below would have occurred without the US mediating with both countries?

http://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/International-Relations/US-arm-twisting-gets-Abe-Park-to-inch-closer

Japan knows not visiting Yasukuni DOES NOT help repair the relations. US should stop visiting Arlington if it tells Japan to stop visiting the shrine.

I see you speak for everyone in Japan, so you must hold a senior position in the government, please enlighten us all on what senior position you hold........and please provide one country whose government has officially requested US administration members from visiting Arlington National Ceremony.

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US should stop visiting Arlington if it tells Japan to stop visiting the shrine.

Apples and oranges. War criminals not buried in Arlington, unless you're one of the crazies who think US top brass were war criminals. US and Japan not going to change policy for a few crazies. US has a small plot for war criminals in a cemetery in France, but those are rapists and murderers, not the Class A top brass types on the scroll(s) at Yasukuni.

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lincolman Please understand that Japanese visiting the shrine in Japan is not illegal, and that Japanese are long suffering from the bullyings from China/SK.

Do you really think the meeting outlined in the link below would have occurred without the US mediating with both countries?

Any good result from the meeting? Don't you know SK president ignored PM Abe?

please provide one country whose government has officially requested US administration members from visiting Arlington National Ceremony.

You seem to understand how upsetting to be told not to visit our own spiritual place by another country.

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@lincolnmanAUG. 23, 2014 - 09:10AM JST

Quite the opposite, the US has been trying to encourage closer cooperation between Seoul and Tokyo for some time understandably realizing that any provocation or major contingency started by nKorea would require very close coordination; for missile defense, for evacuation of citizens, for security of sea lanes of communication, etc. And that ' s just militarily, they have been encouraging closer political, economic and social ties also.

How ' the US has been trying to encourage closer cooperation between Seoul and Tokyo ' while American President gives to Japanese PM direct advices 'not to go in Yasukuni Shrine? ' In short, he clearly supports claims of SK and Chinese officials.

You mistake the US media and general public with official policy of the US government.

The US media sources such as WP or FOX News openly provide a political course of the US administration. As for ' general public' you should look in separate thread about intention of Japan to build domestic fighter-interceptor. Some folks from 'general public" warn Japanese that 'the US fully control Japanese military and industrial complex and never allow them to build a national fighter-interceptor'. The same 'general public' sharply condemn Japanese people for visits in Yasukuni Shrine, calling dead soldiers of Japan as 'class A,B,C war criminals' .

There are 435 members of Congress – how many have advocated putting “Comfort Women” memorials and statues in their districts – 3-4?

Stiil, they represent 'general public" of their states, supporting claims of SK and China.

Americans consider Japan some sort of defeated province that has no rights to rise an independent voice.

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I’m probably going to regret this but allow me to try to engage you in some polite discourse.

incolman Please understand that Japanese visiting the shrine in Japan is not illegal, and that Japanese are long suffering from the bullyings from China/SK.

Please provide a reference where I stated that ordinary Japanese citizens visiting Yasukuni is illegal.

Any good result from the meeting? Don't you know SK president ignored PM Abe?

Ok, let me get this straight, first you say the US has done nothing to help heal Japan-SKorea relations, and when I provide you an empirical example, you say what was the result? The fact that it even occurred is evidence that the US has been trying for years to get both countries to put aside their differences and better their relations.

You seem to understand how upsetting to be told not to visit our own spiritual place by another country.

I don’t believe the US sent an official diplomatic note to tinawatanabe saying “please don’t worship at Yasukuni” – please correct me if I’m wrong. The US government has never said that the Japanese public should not go to Yasukuni – the US President asked PM Abe to not visit Yasukuni last vear in a effort to improve SKorea/China relations. He elected to ignore that request.

How ' the US has been trying to encourage closer cooperation between Seoul and Tokyo ' while American President gives to Japanese PM direct advices 'not to go in Yasukuni Shrine? ' In short, he clearly supports claims of SK and Chinese officials.

Please Google “US-SKorea-Japan trilateral cooperation efforts” – you will be rewarded with a series of initiatives over the years that the US has sponsored to enhance cooperation and build trust between Japan and SKorea.

The US media sources such as WP or FOX News openly provide a political course of the US administration. As for ' general public' you should look in separate thread about intention of Japan to build domestic fighter-interceptor. Some folks from 'general public" warn Japanese that 'the US fully control Japanese military and industrial complex and never allow them to build a national fighter-interceptor'. The same 'general public' sharply condemn Japanese people for visits in Yasukuni Shrine, calling dead soldiers of Japan as 'class A,B,C war criminals' .

If you believe that, you lack even an elementary level understanding of the US political system. Thank goodness Fox News is not that official spokesman of the administration – I could see Rupert Murdoch doubling over with laughter at that. That's like saying the Shimbun Akahata is the official media spokesman of the Abe administration.

Stiil, they represent 'general public" of their states, supporting claims of SK and China. Americans consider Japan some sort of defeated province that has no rights to rise an independent voice.

Overgeneralization and stereotyping – and more importantly, factually incorrect. The majority of Americans support PM Abe’s recent reinterpretation of collective self defense – what’s interesting is that a majority of the Japanese public does not support it. So who is holding back Japan as a rising voice

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provide a reference where I stated that ordinary Japanese citizens visiting Yasukuni is illegal

You can not tell another country not to do something not illegal.

first you say the US has done nothing to help heal Japan-SKorea relations

I never said that. It's none of US business.

The US government has never said that the Japanese public should not go to Yasukuni – the US President asked PM Abe to not visit Yasukuni

That's SK mentality. Public and PM are the same. PM is representative of J public. I think SK should stop dragging US into this. Japanese don't want any relation with SK because all SKoreans do is demand demand demand.

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You can not tell another country not to do something not illegal.

Actually you can tell another country to do whatever you want. They don't have to listen though. If they don't, they have to face the consequences, whatever those may be, whether it be simply the anger of one man, or invasion from another country.

Japan doesn't have to listen to China's and Korea's insistence that the politicians don't visit Yasukuni, but if they don't, they have no choice but to suffer the consequences of visiting it. So far those consequences have been strained relations and hatred coming from both of those countries. Hopefully it will be limited to that.

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@lincolnmanAUG. 23, 2014 - 01:49PM JST

Please Google ' US-SKorea-Japan trilateral cooperation efforts ' - you will be rewarded with a series of initiatives over the years that the US has sponsored to enhance cooperation and build trust between Japan and SKorea.

Thank you. I prefer to read about solid facts over exercizes in political eloquence. Words of those "trilateral cooperation efforts" have no weight. Ever. There are facts that many statues of so-called "comfort women" have been erected on American soil. And it was approved both by American folks and some congressmen. Also there is a fact that American President dare to give advice to Japanese Prime-Minister "not to go in Yasukuni Shrine". The mentioned facts depict direct insults to feelings of Japanese people.

If you believe that, you lack even an elementary level understanding of the US political system. Thank goodness Fox News is not that official spokesman of the administration.

Actually, it would be better for the Fox News to become an official spokeperson of the U.S. administration. Because both Mari Harf and Jen Psaki look out like a couple of uninformed or bad educated villagers when answering questions of Matthew Lee and his collegues.

The majority of Americans support PM Abe ' s recent reinterpretation of collective self defense.

Right, because "Abe's recent reinterpretation" serves mostly for American interests. The majority of Americans also condemn visits of Japanese people in Yasukuni Shrine, calling dead soldiers of Japan as "Class A,B,C criminals".

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they have no choice but to suffer the consequences of visiting it.

Another threat? Scary isn't it? In Japan's crime story, extortionists would use the rhetoric. But the consequences always result on both ways. I wonder which way is more stronger.

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Another threat?

It's not a threat, it's a statement of facts of life. Every action has consequences. Sometimes those are good, sometimes those are not.

the consequences always result on both ways.

I agree. As I just said above, every action has consequences. The Chinese and Koreans have to live with the consequences of their whining, as much as the Japanese have to live with the consequences of their decision to visit Yasukuni.

Really, both sides are morons. If the Japanese had half a brain between their elected officials, they would stop antagonizing their neighbors. And if the Chinese and Koreans had half a brain between their own elected officials, they would realize that the Japanese politicians are simply doing it to antagonize them, and whining about it just feeds into that.

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the Japanese politicians are simply doing it to antagonize them, and whining about it just feeds into that.

Poor SKoreans. So self-conscious. You should realize that Japan and the world are not interested in SK. And if (only if because Japan never think about it) Japan want to antigonize SK, it will never think of using as precious place as shrine for anything to do with a country like SK.

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Poor SKoreans. So self-conscious.

As if the Japanese aren't.

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As if the Japanese aren't.

Nobody can beat SK's self-consciousness, even Chinese cannot. They have to do something about it because neighboring countries are really being troubled by them, Meiwaku.

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night knightAug. 23, 2014 - 03:15PM JST The majority of Americans also condemn visits of Japanese people in Yasukuni Shrine, calling dead soldiers of Japan >as "Class A,B,C criminals".

I have to disagree with this statement. I find that those American who condemn Yasukuni Visits quickly change their position when they learn that war dead from the 1800s are enshrined there and that hew War Criminals comprise a miniscule portion of the total number enshrined. The same Americans who condemn Yasukuni visits also would not consider another country telling Americans which cemeteries or memorials they may or may not visit. Finally the vast majority of Americans who condemn Yasukuni visits do so because China and South Korea will whine about it. A position made very clear in the Dec 2013 State Dept statement.

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Americans who condemn Yasukuni visits do so because China and South Korea will whine about it.

Japan will not whine about it. So, why do those Americans decided on China/SK favor? Japan decided USA put more importance on those countries, and emboldened them. Shouldn't USA stand at neutral?

Why does Japan have to listen to those Americans? How do those Americans consider sovereignty? Why do they assume USA has better judgement than Japan on Japan's matter? How do you prove those Americans are not saying so from US interests? USA and Japan were enemy at the war. Isn't it unfair for USA to interfere from the enemy side?

Shrines are religious facility. Isn't it common sense not to interfere in another country's religious culture?
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Japan will not whine about it.

You whine about Korea all the time on here. As much as any Koreans whine about Japan. So your statement is incorrect.

Isn't it unfair for USA to interfere from the enemy side?

Life's not fair.

Shrines are religious facility. Isn't it common sense not to interfere in another country's religious culture?

No. Especially when that 'religious culture' is a thinly veiled dedication to whitewashing past evils.

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tinawatanabeAug. 23, 2014 - 09:58PM JST "Americans who condemn Yasukuni visits do so because China and South Korea will whine about it." 1.Japan will not whine about it. So, why do those Americans decided on China/SK favor? Japan decided USA put >more importance on those countries, and emboldened them. Shouldn't USA stand at neutral?

The US does not "decided on China/SK favor". The US did not want Abe to visit at that time because we have been trying to resolve the SK-Jpn rift which is damaging our alliances and strategic policy in East Asia, and such a visit at that time would only serve to add to the tensions. That is exactly what the State Dept statement said. Read for yourself. http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/p/tp-20131226-01.html China is a lost cause and nothing anyone does will change their position.

2.Why does Japan have to listen to those Americans? How do those Americans consider sovereignty? Why do they >assume USA has better judgement than Japan on Japan's matter? How do you prove those Americans are not saying >so from US interests? USA and Japan were enemy at the war. Isn't it unfair for USA to interfere from the enemy side?

Because JPN is a partner in a strategic security alliance and there is an obvious need to work together to achieve mutually desired goals. Of course, US interests are behind any US position, just as Japanese interest are behind any Japanese position. But it is the overlapping of common interests and goals that has made the alliance successful for some 54 years. Yes the USA and JPN were enemies in WWII. We were enemies or 4 years out of 151 years of relations.

3.Shrines are religious facility. Isn't it common sense not to interfere in another country's religious culture?

They are. Which is one reason that the U.S. does not object to any visits on the same grounds that China and SK do, No one in the US believes that anyone visits the shrine to "pray for or worship war criminals" or to "glorify militarism". If we did Americans old never have visited it. President Emeritus of Harvard University Charles William Eliot visited on July 10, 1913 Charles Lindbergh visited on August 27, 1931 United States Navy Rear Admiral Daniel Smith visited on April 9, 1969. United States Marine Corps Lieutenant General Wallace Gregson (the 3d Marine Division's commanding general) visited on April 26, 2001.

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Ossan

I agree that in retrospect it was a huge failure on our part. But I don't think we can call it a "mistake" in the 1950s.

Then we agree: While US "experts" blame Korea and Japan, we know where the blame lies:

In the US, for never setting up a NEATO. I

And its not an issue of retrospect. It was debated at the time . And rejected. Because too many in US wanted complete freedom of action, and wanted a more unilateral, US centered grand strategy.

Your opinion about Obama's lack of muscular foreign policy is way off point: ALL US presidents have been hampered by this arrangment for decades. China's moves are mostly a function of her increasing power.

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@OssanAmericaAUG. 23, 2014 - 10:37PM JST

The US did not want Abe to visit at that time because we have been trying to resolve the SK-Jpn rift which is damaging our alliances and strategic policy in East Asia, and such a visit at that time would only serve to add to the tensions.... Of course, US interests are behind any US position, just as Japanese interest are behind any Japanese position.

An excellent answer ! In other words, trying to protect U.S. national interests in the region, Americans demonstrated zero respect both to feelings of Japanese people and to religious traditions.

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JTDanManAug. 23, 2014 - 10:48PM JST Ossan "I agree that in retrospect it was a huge failure on our part. But I don't think we can call it a "mistake" in the 1950s." Then we agree: While US "experts" blame Korea and Japan, we know where the blame lies: In the US, for never setting up a NEATO. I And its not an issue of retrospect. It was debated at the time . And rejected. Because too many in US wanted >complete freedom of action, and wanted a more unilateral, US centered grand strategy.

We were in the cold war facing the Soviet Menace. I would have supported a unilateral US centered strategy at that time. But as I said in retrospect I would have regretted it many decades later.

Your opinion about Obama's lack of muscular foreign policy is way off point: ALL US presidents have been hampered >by this arrangment for decades. China's moves are mostly a function of her increasing power.

Sorry but getting off topic so won't address.

night knightAug. 23, 2014 - 10:50PM JST > @OssanAmericaAUG. 23, 2014 - 10:37PM JST "The US did not want Abe to visit at that time because we have been trying to resolve the SK-Jpn rift which is damaging our alliances and strategic policy in East Asia, and such a visit at that time would only serve to add to the tensions.... Of course, US interests are behind any US position, just as Japanese interest are behind any Japanese position." An excellent answer ! In other words, trying to protect U.S. national interests in the region, Americans demonstrated >zero respect both to feelings of Japanese people and to religious traditions.

I disagree with that "zero". After all the US has refrained from commenting on the visits for all these years. But while JTDanman will probably disagree with me, there was nothing wrong or unusual in our efforts to keep Abe from visiting in Dec 2013. But it was foolish for State to issue a statement that caused harm to US-JPN relations while fuelling China and SK. This displays the diplomatically challenged nature of the current Administration to which State answers, because our objection was because "a visit would increase tensions". But States "disappointed" statement also increased tensions.

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The US did not want Abe to visit at that time because we have been trying to resolve the SK-Jpn rift which is damaging our alliances

There is no evidence not visiting resolve the Jpn-SK rift. Japan thinks otherwise. That's why Japan is visiting, and J public supporting. There is no proof US has better judgement on this. Japan has long been in pain by every bit criticized by SK , and the pain would not be understood by USA.

Japan's public sentiment toward SK is to cut diplomatic relation with the country becuase of the too much pain. US interference will only worsen the situation. Japan will manage somehow on its own.

As counter evidence, there are many other issues SK is making against Japan. If Japan stop visiting the shrine, SK only shift their emphasis on the next one. Their attitude to Japan will never change because their problem is not in Japan, but in them

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There is no evidence not visiting resolve the Jpn-SK rift. Japan thinks otherwise. That's why Japan is visiting, and J public supporting.

Only the right wingers support the visits. The visits are not supported by the majority of Japanese.

As counter evidence, there are many other issues SK is making against Japan. If Japan stop visiting the shrine, SK only shift their emphasis on the next one. Their attitude to Japan will never change because their problem is not in Japan, but in them

You cannot know that. You always use this as an excuse to not change. But Japan has never repented, and never tried to show proper remorse for their actions during the war, so there is no way of knowing if SK would change their attitudes or not. Conversely, your stubbornness is just as bad as their constant complaining. As I said earlier, both sides are filled with morons.

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Ossan

I would have supported a unilateral US centered strategy at that time. But as I said in retrospect I would have regretted it many decades later.

Fair enough. It is the old realist v international liberal argument. The advantage of the former: more freedom to act as one wishes; the advantage of the latter: our allies (read satellite/client states) have liberal democratic societies which makes them wealthier so they can foot the bill.

And take over when we falter. Which will inevitably happen. In fact, it already has. We've been running deficits for decades. Classic hegemonic burden for providing the common goods, etc etc.

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tinawatanabeAug. 23, 2014 - 11:38PM JST "The US did not want Abe to visit at that time because we have been trying to resolve the SK-Jpn rift which is damaging our alliances"

There is no evidence not visiting resolve the Jpn-SK rift. Japan thinks otherwise. That's why Japan is visiting, and J >public supporting. There is no proof US has better judgement on this. Japan has long been in pain by every bit >criticized by SK , and the pain would not be understood by USA.

I agree that there is no evidence that ending Yasukuni visits would end the anti-JPN posture that SK is taking, However as with all negotiations one pursues resolution a step at a time. You are also correct that in the US we do not know how JPN feels about SK criticism. We are only interested in protecting our alliances and fear east strategic policy.

Japan's public sentiment toward SK is to cut diplomatic relation with the country becuase of the too much pain. US >interference will only worsen the situation. Japan will manage somehow on its own.

You are wrong. If Obama had not "forced" a meeting with Abe and Park it would never have happened. And Park's unwillingness to support the US position and cool reaction to Abe merely exposed to the world how uncooperative she was. There is already talk in the US questioning whether SK with it's support for China is an actual "ally" of the US, and is it worth American lives to be put on the line to protect them.

As counter evidence, there are many other issues SK is making against Japan. If Japan stop visiting the shrine, SK >only shift their emphasis on the next one. Their attitude to Japan will never change because their problem is not in >Japan, but in them

That's probably correct. But let me ask you, what is Japan doing? The Abe administration has gone all out in countering China's propaganda war and between the world knowing that China is a totalitarian government and what they are doing to other Asian countries, Japan has the support of the world. But what is it doing about South Korea? I think they are doing nothing. You're idea of simply cutting off relations is not the answer. Frankly that's childish. .

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what is it doing about South Korea? I think they are doing nothing.

Can't you see? That's the best thing. You are obviously talking from US perspective, which is not always right.

Cutting off idea is not childish idea although I admit it's not a government idea at all. Maybe public's dream idea. Koreans are more difficult people than Chinese. J public gave up on mending tie with Korea, and don't mind Korea becoming part of China. If Japan doesn't mind why does US have to mind?

It is J public that make Abe move the way he does. With China/SK's threat, what else option do you think Japan can take besides the way Japan is taking.

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With China/SK's threat, what else option do you think Japan can take besides the way Japan is taking.

Pretty much anything other than what they've been doing.

But in all seriousness, we've already given countless ways Japan could improve on its current actions. You can't tell someone who doesn't want to listen though.

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tinawatanabeAug. 24, 2014 - 01:05AM JST "what is it doing about South Korea? I think they are doing nothing."

Can't you see? That's the best thing. You are obviously talking from US perspective, which is not always right.

No I don't think it's the best thing. And yes, my views are from the US perspective and they may not always be right. But consider the realty; China and North Korea have nuclear weapons. Neither Japan nor South Korea have nuclear weapons. And both nations find it in their best interest to be allied with the US which is, despite diplomatic fumble fingers, still the most powerful nation in the world. So heeding the "US view" most certainly is in both Japan and South Korea's interests.

Cutting off idea is not childish idea although I admit it's not a government idea at all. Maybe public's dream idea. >Koreans are more difficult people than Chinese. J public gave up on mending tie with Korea, and don't mind Korea >becoming part of China. If Japan doesn't mind why does US have to mind?

I think Japan does mind. It is not in Japan's best interest to have China right across the Sea of Japan. China will then be claiming Takeshima and Tsushima, the same way they took over Taiwan's claim to the Senkakus. And the US does mind because that brings China that much closer to US bases in Japan.

It is J public that make Abe move the way he does. With China/SK's threat, what else option do you think Japan can >take besides the way Japan is taking.

China is an obvious threat. But South Korea is not. At least as long as they remain in the US-ROK alliance. If they choose to leave, or openly become an ally of China, then SK would become a threat to Japan., But not until then. Japan has he option of putting more pressure on SKorea.

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The Heritage Foundation think tank has missed the point and they missed it by a mile.

South Korea is no longer in the US's sphere of influence. South Korea is and has been in Communist China's bed for a while now. The US needs to open it's eyes and accept this. Then it needs to close it's bases in South Korea and relocate those forces to Japan and the Philippines.

It is only a matter of time before this South Korean President or the next one betrays the US openly, so it's best to not have forces stationed there.

Time to cut our loses there and give South Korea what it wants, a united Korea. But, what they wish for and what they will get are two completely different things.

Start getting used to calling Seoul, Kim Il-sung city.

SerranoAug. 21, 2014 - 11:07PM JST "the two main American allies in Asia, which play host to a total of 80,000 U.S. forces" 69 years since the end of WW2 and 61 years since the end of the Korean War there are still 80,000 U.S. military personnel in Japan and Korea...

Look up "Korean Armistice Agreement" and you will see why we still have troops in South Korea.

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U.S. experts blame both Japan, S Korea for tensions

Boy. Am I glad we have these experts... I would've never been able to figure that one out.

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Japan has he option of putting more pressure on SKorea.

How? USA is in the postion where it can put pressure on SKorea because of US-SK alliance,Japan doesn't have alliance with that country. but somehow USA is always putting pressure on Japan in favor of SK, saying as important thing as "not to visit the shrine", or criticizing "comfort women" issue. But what did USA criticize SK ever?

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somehow USA is always putting pressure on Japan in favor of SK, saying as important thing as "not to visit the shrine", or criticizing "comfort women" issue. But what did USA criticize SK ever?

That's because Japan is in the wrong, and Korea hasn't done anything other than complain about Japan's wrongs.

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Japanese: Have you ever thought maybe, just maybe, it's YOUR fault?

-7 ( +1 / -8 )

@tinawatanabeAUG. 24, 2014 - 10:19AM JST

But what did USA criticize SK ever?

Good point !

@StrangerlandAUG. 24, 2014 - 11:44AM JST

That's because Japan is in the wrong,

How laughable ! "Japan is in the wrong" only for Americans, Chinese and South Koreans. The rest of the world never pays any attention to "comfort women" or "visits of Japanese people in Yasukuni Shrine". Because those "tensions" were created to split and divide certain South Asian nations. The USA is fueling those tensions just to protect U.S. interests. If you were familiar with saying "Kuki-wo Emu", you would never try to tell to Japanese people that "Americans are trying to solve tensions between SK and Japan. Japanese see your nature as clearly as as through X-Ray machine.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Nice job at completely ignoring the truth (that Japan is in the wrong) by trying to divert attention in any other direction.

Anyways:

If you were familiar with saying "Kuki-wo Emu"

I have to admit, I'm not familiar with it. Probably because it doesn't exist. I'm guessing you meant 空気を読む (kuki wo yomu). You should maybe try to get the Japanese right if you are going to use it, especially when talking to someone who actually speaks Japanese.

you would never try to tell to Japanese people that "Americans are trying to solve tensions between SK and Japan.

You're right, I don't try to tell people this in real life. I've turned Japanese in that I don't like conflict, and usually my conversations with Japanese people focus on different more palatable topics. But I have no problem with telling the netizens the truth they don't want to hear, and that truth is that the Japanese government and the right-wingers are in the wrong on this subject.

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

Well, there is one thing we can be thankful for - the few Netto Uyoku who post here are on the far right fringe of Japanese society, what I refer to as Ishihara-Tomogami world - where the emperor is divine, Japan a superior nation and race, and everyone else is just plain ethnically inferior.

I do have a question for the far right wing crowd, you obviously hate China and Korea, can't stand the US (even though it has forces in Japan and has a security treaty to help defend it). So what country do you think Japan should align itself with - who should Japan be "friends" with?

Inquiring minds want to know........

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

@lincolnmanAUG. 24, 2014 - 05:24PM JST

So what country do you think Japan should align itself with - who should Japan be "friends" with?

Fully sovereign Japan could choose any ally or friend all around the world. By the way, I know what you are afraid most of all. If Japan becomes fully sovereign, the country will abandon the burden of U.S. bases. No foreign military bases on Japanese soil are needed. And military and economical alliance with close neighbour, Russia would end any attempts of possible aggression from China.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Fully sovereign Japan could choose any ally or friend all around the world. By the way, I know what you are afraid most of all. If Japan becomes fully sovereign, the country will abandon the burden of U.S. bases. No foreign military bases on Japanese soil are needed. And military and economical alliance with close neighbour, Russia would end any attempts of possible aggression from China.

Thank you - I see you believe Japan should establish a strategic partnership with Russia; a country that has invaded Georgia and Ukraine, provided weapons to extremists who shot down a civilian airliner, denies its citizens basic human rights and the expression of free speech, and has refused to return to Japan the Northern Islands it illegally seized at the end of WW II and currently occupies to this day. You do believe these islands were illegally seized, don't you? Or since you desire to partner with Russia, perhaps you believe these islands are legitimately Russian territory.......

That you chose to partner with Russia is very illustrative of what values you hold.

And I have to ask, you mention the "burden of US bases" - that's a classic line used by the far left - the Japan Communist Party and radical groups such has the Chukakuha and Kakurokyo - I assume you support and share the values of these groups also.

-5 ( +0 / -5 )

@lincolnmanAUG. 24, 2014 - 07:06PM JST

Thank you - I see you believe Japan should establish a strategic partnership with Russia;

A close neighbor who never criticized domestic affairs of Japan.

a country that has invaded Georgia and Ukraine,

Russia invaded Georgia in response to aggressive attack of georgians to ossetian people. Russians protected Ossetians and punished Georgia. Besides, those parts of Georgia, annexed by Russia were autonomous regions (Abkhazia and Ossetia). As for "invasion in Ukraine", Russia regained its historical territory, located in Crimea under common will of majority of Crimean population. You should study a subject more attentively next time. If you aren't aware, Russia never attacked and invaded foreign countries under completely false pretexts like it took place in Iraq with American invasion.

provided weapons to extremists who shot down a civilian airliner,

Due to lack of argument you're repeating a lie, invented by the U.S. State Department, right? You have zero evidence that it was a criminal action of Russians or pro-Russian rebels.

denies its citizens basic human rights and the expression of free speech Pretty laughable.

and has refused to return to Japan the Northern Islands it illegally seized at the end of WW II and currently occupies to this day.

The islands were seized in a battle. Besides, Russians never refused to talk about returning the islands and even ofered two of them to Japan.

@StrangerlandAUG. 24, 2014 - 03:16PM JST

But I have no problem with telling the netizens the truth they don't want to hear,

Tinawatanabe also has heard you. If Japanese people disagree with your statements, that's not their problem.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

What is the criteria to claim they are experts in Japan and S Korea in USA? Hope it is not just they can use chopstiicks or visit Japanese American Society meetings once in a while in a year and speak with English only speaking Asians or learned how to criticize Abe and Japan through Los Angeles Times and Washington Post.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

tinawatanabeAug. 24, 2014 - 10:19AM JST "Japan has he option of putting more pressure on SKorea." How? USA is in the postion where it can put pressure on SKorea because of US-SK alliance,Japan doesn't have alliance with that country.

Japan can put the US on notice that the Mutual Defense Treaty will be terminated unless it is amended so that US forces based in Japan can not support actions on the Korean Peninsula without Japan's approval. Watch how fast SKorea changes it's tune.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

A close neighbor who never criticized domestic affairs of Japan.

Really? Let's start with this - but there are many others. So I assume you agree with FM Lavrov that Japan is wrong for making efforts to assert sovereignty over the Senkakus - that certainly puts you at odds with all your far right wing buddies......

<>http://asiabizz.com/6271/russian-foreign-minister-criticizes-japan-over-island-dispute>

Russia invaded Georgia in response to aggressive attack of georgians to ossetian people. Russians protected Ossetians and punished Georgia. Besides, those parts of Georgia, annexed by Russia were autonomous regions (Abkhazia and Ossetia). As for "invasion in Ukraine", Russia regained its historical territory, located in Crimea under common will of majority of Crimean population. You should study a subject more attentively next time. If you aren't aware, Russia never attacked and invaded foreign countries under completely false pretexts like it took place in Iraq with American invasion. provided weapons to extremists who shot down a civilian airliner, Due to lack of argument you're repeating a lie, invented by the U.S. State Department, right? You have zero evidence that it was a criminal action of Russians or pro-Russian rebels.

Well, using your argument, the Senkakus belong to China, Takeshima to SKorea and the Northern Territories to Russia because those countries all claim they were part of their historical territory. Are you sure you are a rightist?

denies its citizens basic human rights and the expression of free speech Pretty laughable.

Well, its again illustrative that you fail to even dispute it - but the Russians who are thrown in jail or assaulted by government thugs for peacefully protesting against the Putin regime aren't laughing.....

The islands were seized in a battle. Besides, Russians never refused to talk about returning the islands and even ofered two of them to Japan.

As was Okinawa, so you believe the US should have not returned Okinawa to Japan in 1974? Are you sure you're a rightist - you sound like a card-carrying member of the far left to me. Also, why haven't Russia returnd the islands? And why are they now increasing their military facilities there?

And let me ask again since you failed to address it;

And I have to ask, you mention the "burden of US bases" - that's a classic line used by the far left - the Japan Communist Party and radical groups such has the Chukakuha and Kakurokyo - I assume you support and share the values of these groups also.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Japan can put the US on notice that the Mutual Defense Treaty will be terminated unless it is amended so that US forces based in Japan can not support actions on the Korean Peninsula without Japan's approval. Watch how fast SKorea changes it's tune.

Japan has said that, and SK strongly criticized about it. I don't understand why USA criticizes Japan in front of SK. That attitude indicates that USA is not really trying to mend Japan-SK relation. And I don't like the way USA advertise to the world that Japan and SK are two bad boys and good adult USA is helping mend the tie.

If SKorea wants to be part of China, there is nothing we can do. As i said Japan is very tired with SK, there is nothing Japan can do anymore.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

tinawatanabe is absolutely correct. Japan has pretty much decided to disassociate with South Korea so it's ultimately up to U.S. to decide the next course.

To me, S.K. will eventually be China's defacto province. They sure are acting like one.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

So I assume you agree with FM Lavrov that Japan is wrong for making efforts to assert sovereignty over the Senkakus - that certainly puts you at odds with all your far right wing buddies......

<>http://asiabizz.com/6271/russian-foreign-minister-criticizes-japan-over-island-dispute>

That guy, Lavrov never said anything about rights or wrongs of Senkakus. Please, check your sources carefully.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

That guy, Lavrov never said anything about rights or wrongs of Senkakus. Please, check your sources carefully.

You are quite right - I meant to say Kurils - thank you for the correction. As you said nothing regarding the rest of my post, I'll assume you agree with it all.

But as our good friends on the far right are openly critical of the US Govt's disappointment of PM Abe visiting Yasukuni, I'm curious as to what their response is to the following;

Lavrov told Wang, "Russia holds a completely identical stance with China on the Yasukuni Shrine issue" and urged Japan to correct its "erroneous historical view".

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/kyodo-news-international/131230/chinese-russian-foreign-ministers-criticize-abes-shr-0

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

@alex rockstoneAUG. 25, 2014 - 01:19PM JST

That guy, Lavrov never said anything about rights or wrongs of Senkakus. Please, check your sources carefully.

Thank you for this interesting detail. Indeed, I have found nothing except that highly questionable "source" .

@lincolnmanAUG. 25, 2014 - 06:52AM JST

Well, using your argument, the Senkakus belong to China, Takeshima to SKorea and the Northern Territories to Russia because those countries all claim they were part of their historical territory.

Rather using your assumptions, not "my arguments".

As was Okinawa, so you believe the US should have not returned Okinawa to Japan in 1974?

Technically speaking, Okinawa is still under occupation of U.S. forces.

But as our good friends on the far right are openly critical of the US Govt's disappointment of PM Abe visiting Yasukuni, I'm curious as to what their response is to the following;

Lavrov told Wang, "Russia holds a completely identical stance with China on the Yasukuni Shrine issue" and urged Japan to correct its "erroneous historical view".

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/kyodo-news-international/131230/chinese-russian-foreign-ministers-criticize-abes-shr-0

As it has already has been pointed above, Lavrov can speak for himself. He needs not any translators as " Wangs, Khongs, Chings etc". He is a spokeperson of Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I have checked his interviews. He never told about " supporting China in Senkakus dispute".

0 ( +0 / -0 )

tinawatanabeAug. 25, 2014 - 08:57AM JST "Japan can put the US on notice that the Mutual Defense Treaty will be terminated unless it is amended so that US forces based in Japan can not support actions on the Korean Peninsula without Japan's approval. Watch how fast SKorea changes it's tune."

Japan has said that, and SK strongly criticized about it.

Have they? Can you show me please.

I don't understand why USA criticizes Japan in front of SK. That attitude indicates that USA is not really trying to >mend Japan-SK relation. And I don't like the way USA advertise to the world that Japan and SK are two bad boys and >good adult USA is helping mend the tie.

The answer is simple. The State Dept under our "historic" Commander in Chief s appeasing South Korea trying to keep it from going completely over to China, which would strike a devastating blow to US strategic policy in the region. State is afraid of criticizing South Korea.

If SKorea wants to be part of China, there is nothing we can do. As i said Japan is very tired with SK, there is nothing >Japan can do anymore.

You are probably right.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Well, I have to say, this has been interesting, but it reinforces for me the old adage that you can’t argue with a fool or a far right wing extremist……neither lives in reality……..

Let’s just summarize before we call it quits;

Based on their posts here, tinawatanabe, night knight, and some of the other Netto Uyoku hold the following views;

They hate China and South Korea, because, well, we all know why……

They resent the US because the US Govt expressed disappointment with PM Abe visiting Yasukuni last year. Yet they don’t resent Russia even when FM Lavrov, who says nothing that hasn’t been approved by Putin states "Russia holds a completely identical stance with China on the Yasukuni Shrine issue" and urged Japan to correct its "erroneous historical view".

They think it’s OK for Russia to occupy the Northern Territories because “the islands were sized in battle” I imagine that goes over real well with their right wing buds……..,

They want to sever the US Security treaty and formalize a new one with Russia, even though the US has pledged to help defend Japan for 60 years and Russia continues to conduct aggressive, intrusive and provocative bomber and submarine patrols that infringe on Japanese sovereignty.

They believe that “Russia never attacked and invaded foreign countries”, evidently forgetting about Hungary in 1956, Czechoslovakia in 1968, let alone recent invasions in Georgia and Ukraine.

They say that “As for "invasion in Ukraine", Russia regained its historical territory” – implying that SKorea claims to Takeshima, Chinese claims to the Senkakus and Russia claims to the Northern Territories under historical grounds are all valid and legitimate, another view that must go over real well within the far right crowd.

All which goes to show that if you sit in the back of a black sound truck with the volume up too loud, bad things happen to your brain…….

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

"Japan has said that, and SK strongly criticized about it."Have they? Can you show me please.

The news were all over (maybe only in Japan and SK since you don't know). Please enter key words.

State is afraid of criticizing South Korea.

Or being lobbied? Very strange smart people like Americans cannot tell whether SK will go over to China because of Japan shrine visit. If you check SK papers, you'll see they're actually delighted at Japan's visit. They're saying like "Now, we can bash Japan." "Japan is stupid" "We can stand at better postion" "Japan loses its reputation", etc.

But Japan has to do what Japan has to do. Based on centuries long tradition, Japanese pay respect to their ancestors. Very sad that Americans cannot respect the spiritual freedom of another country.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

lincolnmanAUG. 26, 2014 - 01:07PM JST

but it reinforces for me the old adage that you can’t argue with a fool or a far right wing extremist……neither lives in reality……..

You have shown no arguments worthless to be discussed.

Let’s just summarize before we call it quits;

All which goes to show that if you sit in the back of a black sound truck with the volume up too loud, bad things happen to your brain…….

Don't forget that owners of mentioned black vans sit on their land and hardly need advices from outside. Do not impose an American point of view to Japanese people. Simple as that.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

lincolnman US sold his loyal friend (Japan) to appease SK. Your vice president phoned PM Abe after his Japan-SK trip "Hi, Mr. Abe. I talked with SK president in SK that You won't visit the shrine" something like that. US and SK talked over Japan's head about Abe's shrine visit. And your president also sold Japan to appease SK by criticizing "comfort women" in SK. What do you expect Japan to do?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

To Ossan America: If you honestly believe protectorate of Korea than annexation was legal and just than you must have a serious amnesia like Mr Abe or must NOT know your History correctly... Korea NEVER asked for protection or to be a protectorate this was a scheme concocted by coalition of Meiji government, military, and business officials who sought to integrate Korea both politically and economically into the Japanese Empire with cooperation from US and Europe to invade Korea with utterly useless defense mechanisms. Korea profusely protested the encroachment but the short lived resistance was quelled with the assassination of Queen Min who was raped, cut into pieces and dumped into the forest with her corpse burnt to crisp. This was a clear cut INVASION...an illegal encroachment by Imperial Japan pure and simple!

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

an illegal encroachment by Imperial Japan pure and simple!

Another new food for Korea to bash Japan with. But no evidence again.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

tinawatanabeAug. 26, 2014 - 01:22PM JST "Japan has said that, and SK strongly criticized about it."Have they? Can you show me please. The news were all over (maybe only in Japan and SK since you don't know). Please enter key words.

Not very helpful at all. Are you. I'll ask you again,. Please post a link to an English site that shows what you said. I'm not doubting it I just want to read it.

"State is afraid of criticizing South Korea."

Or being lobbied? Very strange smart people like Americans cannot tell whether SK will go over to China because of ?>Japan shrine visit. If you check SK papers, you'll see they're actually delighted at Japan's visit. They're saying >like "Now, we can bash Japan." "Japan is stupid" "We can stand at better postion" "Japan loses its reputation", etc.

Yes South Korea has a tremendous lobby acting for the South Korean government. What is Japan doing? Try answering some of my questions for a change.

But Japan has to do what Japan has to do. Based on centuries long tradition, Japanese pay respect to their >ancestors. Very sad that Americans cannot respect the spiritual freedom of another country

Americans don't give a flying hoot. Maybe you can't tell the difference between Chinese, Koreans and Americans?

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

For goodness sake! It's called talking. The two countries have their talk about the situation and deal with things when they crop up, and get out of hand. Like any two normal people and their relationship. SHeesh! Seems to me like the US wants to make a 'crop-up', so that the talk starts rolling again. Seems to me like some places dont know how to leave talk mid-sentence and always want the talk to be rounded off to a conclusion-like as if there is an end. Well news for you, not everyone talks and communicates the same! How about that!! Some people, and countries, have no problem having a discussion and cruising with it when the time is right. It is correct to say that their relationship wont improve anymore, it already is pretty much at an excellent standard. Unless you wanted perfect-in which case you will be disappointed, and not only that may learn some lessons along the way.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Based on centuries long tradition, Japanese pay respect to their >ancestors. Very sad that Americans cannot respect the spiritual freedom of another country

@OssanAmericaAUG. 27, 2014 - 07:53AM JST

Americans don't give a flying hoot. Maybe you can't tell the difference between Chinese, Koreans and Americans?

"After Prime Minister Abe Shinzo’s December visit to Yasukuni Shrine, Washington expressed its “disappointment,” and criticism of Abe swept through the U.S. media. American reactions to the visit have been overwhelmingly negative: some people are baffled, some are exasperated and some are downright angry. These reactions stem from the symbolism of Yasukuni, and from the belief that Japan has not done enough to confront its wartime past. And Americans are concerned that Abe’s visit will make East Asian crises more likely and cooperation more elusive.

Americans, like many in East Asia, are dismayed when Japanese leaders visit Yasukuni because of its specific attributes. Of course, Americans respect the Japanese people’s desire to honor the people who gave their lives for their country. But the fact that 14 war criminals are enshrined at Yasukuni means that paying respects there is equivalent to honoring Japan’s wartime atrocities and invasions. Americans believe these should be condemned, not honored, so are shocked and worried when they see Japanese leaders pay tribute. They worry that this suggests that Japan has not confronted or repudiated the violent policies that these men designed."

by Jennifer Lind

http://ajw.asahi.com/article/forum/politics_and_economy/east_asia/AJ201402090001

Will you insist further that "Americans don't give a flying hoot." ?

2 ( +3 / -1 )

This article was apparently written to report and to opine on what the officials in the USA had said regarding the relationship problem. It must be put into the proper perspective.

Officials in the USA and the writer, both, probably do not know or have actually experienced what is happening from the Korean and the Japanese perspective. Most possibly both have not lived through the history of the two countries physically and otherwise. So the basis is on their perspective on history and their understanding of geopolitics and domestic politics is what they themselves have learned, understand and appreciate.

Right and wrong as in religion and politics depends on one's views. For each country, they believe that what they have declared or acted out is right in their own minds. Whether what they have said and done is good or meaningful, that is another story.

In order to live and survive in this competitive world, each individual as a person and each nation as a group must say and do things that are different from other people. In order to justify their words and actions, they must satisfy the scrutiny of their group and those that may affect them, not necessarily but including those that oppose and considered as enemies. In any case, all words and actions are designed to satisfy some goal or objective.

What are the objectives of the officials of the USA in saying what they have said?

What are the objective of the writer?

In that light, we can discuss the following:

What are the objectives of the words and actions being taken by each country's political leaders?

What are the objectives of the words and actions being taken by each country's people?

Why is it that the words, the rhetoric, and actions often do not align or make sense?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

OssanAmerica

I don't find the articles in English, so here is in Japanese.

http://japanese.joins.com/article/827/187827.html?servcode=A00&sectcode=A10&cloc=jp|article|related

South Korea has a tremendous lobby acting for the South Korean government. What is Japan doing?

Japan is not good at lobbying. It's very difficult to lobby people who are already done brainwashed. Japan is now trying to set up Japan Center kind of place around the globe.

Maybe you can't tell the difference between Chinese, Koreans and Americans?

Yes, I can. At least China and Korea are not using the other two countries as an excuse.

I'm not an international law expert, but I'm sure there is no law that allow a country to tell another country people not to move their bodies to a certain direction, and not to pray to certain people. If you don't respect the fact, you are reducing yourself to Chinese or Koreans.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

night knightAug. 27, 2014 - 08:42AM JST @OssanAmericaAUG. 27, 2014 - 07:53AM JST Americans don't give a flying hoot. Maybe you can't tell the difference between Chinese, Koreans and Americans?

Sorry night knight but I repeat, Americans don't give a hoot, You quoted one of the common anti-japan bandwagon news source "editorials". If you read the State Dept statement you will see that the US visit objection was because it woyld "increase tensions". In order words, China and especially SK would use it to their advantage. Furthermore, you can see that the US recognizes that he prayed for peace. Not to worship war criminals. http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/p/tp-20131226-01.html What you need to ask yourself is if the U.S. felt the same way about the shrine visits that China and SK do, why would United States Marine Corps Lieutenant General Wallace Gregson (the 3d Marine Division's commanding general) have visited the shrine in April 2001? Furthermore, if he U.S. and it's allies believed that the shrine visits represented a "return to militarism" why would they all support Japan's current military changes?

Tinawataabe. I tryst you read the above. Stop mixing the United States with China and South Korea, The U.S. does not even purport to tell another country's politicians where they can or can not go in their own country. It is only China and SK who have done that continuously since 1985.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

The divisions between the two main American allies in Asia, which play host to a total of 80,000 U.S. forces, have become a growing concern in Washington as it attempts to consolidate its system of alliances and deepen its engagement in the region.

Again, this is total BS. Washington would rather Japan and Korea stay enemies then join forces and make asia stronger than them.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

OssanAmerica Japanese have been watching on TV that many Americans including high ranking officials such as Armitage have been criticizing the shrine. So, Japan knows USA doesn't like the place. That's fine. But telling Japanese not to go there is crossing the line.

You cited "increase tensions", then why can't USA tell that to the people who are increasing tensions. Such as "No matter how much we don't like the place, there is no legal ground for us to tell Japanese not to go there." I don't think you've tried that one.

You've asked what Japan is doing. Doing nothing is the policy now. Japan has done patiently all capitulating and appeasing SK for the decades, but it only made the situation worse, and made them even more demanding. So, just leave Japan alone on SK. That's what I wanted to say to you.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

OssanAmerica Japanese have been watching on TV that many Americans including high ranking officials such as Armitage have been criticizing the shrine. So, Japan knows USA doesn't like the place. That's fine. But telling Japanese not to go there is crossing the line. You cited "increase tensions", then why can't USA tell that to the people who are increasing tensions. Such as "No matter how much we don't like the place, there is no legal ground for us to tell Japanese not to go there." I don't think you've tried that one. You've asked what Japan is doing. Doing nothing is the policy now. Japan has done patiently all capitulating and appeasing SK for the decades, but it only made the situation worse, and made them even more demanding. So, just leave Japan alone on SK. That's what I wanted to say to you.

I don’t know where you get your info from – yes wait, I do know where you get it from – and it’s 100% wrong.

I’m with Ossan on this – 99% of US citizens haven’t the faintest idea what Yasukuni is – if you were to go to my hometown in Ohio and ask, they’d tell you it’s likely some park in Hawaii….. The fact that you think people in the US are obsessed with Yasukuni really speaks more to your over-inflated sense of self.

And no one is telling anyone not to visit Yasukuni – the US and Japan are sovereign countries and the citizens of one cannot dictate to the citizens of the other. Some may suggest that it is inappropriate to visit Yasukuni but that is their OPINION – they are not directing anyone to do anything. Even VP Biden related that President Obama was ASKING Abe to delay a visit to Yasukuni last year.

Offering an opinion is a form of free speech. If you don’t think it is appropriate for individuals to exercise the right of free speech and be able to express their opinion, then I assume you must admire and want to live under a more restrictive and oppressive form of government – one where speaking freely gets you a jail sentence, or worse. Places such as Imperial Japan of the early 20th Century or the current governments of China or North Korea.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Interesting discussion regarding lobbying....

All government announcements and news releases are a form if lobbying or communication rhetoric with some design and purpose. The news media and other media tend to report what makes a story sell rather than what is really being said or done. So therefore, in most cases the governments and the politicians take advantage of that and give out stories or do things that will sell in the media and to the public. Today, it is no different than advertising.

We the readers, must be wary of all media releases and look at it with the entire picture including the frame and where that picture is hung and being displayed. From that we must be able to decipher the intent of what was said or done and the philosophy and design behind it.

Since we are looking at this from the global perspective, it appears to be nothing more than pointing fingers, hoping to discredit our host country. USA it appears, just wanted to show that they are concerned but did not want to get involved.

I am not sure if USA will really get involved.

However, USA is indicating here, according to the way this article is being written, that it will not back up Japan wholeheartedly. That is a deviation from the past. So, Japan must be concerned about not just S. Korea, but also the USA. (Hopefully, it is just a geopolitical gesture.)

How ever, we must look at the entire picture and wander:

Why is Chinese Navy physically participating in war exercises in Hawaii with USA?

Why is S. Korea reluctant to participate in war exercises with Japan and the USA?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Even VP Biden related that President Obama was ASKING Abe to delay a visit to Yasukuni last year.

lincolnman VP Biden said over the phone to PM "I told P. Park that you won't go to the shrine" You probably don't read J papers. It's not only me that hit the ceiling.

99% of US citizens haven’t the faintest idea what Yasukuni is

I've never said they were. I said Americans on TV.

The fact that you think people in the US are obsessed with Yasukuni really speaks more to your over-inflated sense of self.

Did you read this article? US Experts blah blah blah.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

lincolnman VP Biden said over the phone to PM "I told P. Park that you won't go to the shrine" You probably don't read J papers. It's not only me that hit the ceiling.

No, I don't read anything in the far right wing hate media - in the US or Japan. Come on now, you really don't beleive this is an actual transcript do you? Are you really that naive?

I've never said they were. I said Americans on TV.

tinawatanabe: Japanese have been watching on TV that many Americans including high ranking officials such as Armitage have been criticizing the shrine. So, Japan knows USA doesn't like the place. That's fine. But telling Japanese not to go there is crossing the line.

Did you read this article? US Experts blah blah blah.

Experts offering their OPINION - please go look the definition of this word up - it's clear you don't understand it. And let me ask again; do you prefer a form of government that limits free speech; Imperial Japan, China, North Korea, Russia?

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Isn't it an insult to feelings of ordinary Japanese people? Those badly educated folks dare to give advices to japanese what to do or not to do and even criticize them.

What's insulting is your derogatory and discriminatory attitude, though not surprising. And please enlighten us on who else you judge to be "badly educated"......

And one more time, why is it the far right wingers here ignore this question; do you prefer a form of government that limits free speech; Imperial Japan, China, North Korea, Russia?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

lincolman Foreign diplomacy is not a free speech. So, if Biden said free speech over the phone why did USA said "disappointed" over PM Abe's visit? And why did USA get angry at the Japan's angry at USA's "disappointment"?

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Lincolnman

It is not just an opinion. Its an opinion which influences the US's decisions.

On how we treat Japan.

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While it would be 'ideal' for U.S. to have Japan and Korea get along thereby forming an tri state alliance with the U.S., the mere fact that SK will not allow any JSDF to set foot in the peninsula and are one of only two that had negative responses to Abe's recent reinterpretation of the constitution in regards to the use of limited self defense, it's safe to conclude that this is simply a pipe dream.

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lincolman Foreign diplomacy is not a free speech. So, if Biden said free speech over the phone why did USA said "disappointed" over PM Abe's visit? And why did USA get angry at the Japan's angry at USA's "disappointment"?

It is not just an opinion. Its an opinion which influences the US's decisions. On how we treat Japan.

You guys just don't get it do you - you're blinded by your anti-US hatred, which if you were honest with yourselves, really stems from the US defeating Japan in WWII.

Asking a fellow leader not to visit a controversial shrine is not foreign policy - what's outlined in the link below is foreign policy.

< http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/28/us-usa-china-idUSBRE9AQ0T920131128>

Or this;

http://www.voanews.com/content/us-senate-supports-japan-in-land-dispute-with-china/1556495.html

And for the fourth time, do you prefer a form of government that limits free speech; Imperial Japan, China, North Korea, Russia?

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@lincolnmanAUG. 28, 2014 - 09:50PM JST

Some may suggest that it is inappropriate to visit Yasukuni but that is their OPINION – they are not directing anyone to do anything. Even VP Biden related that President Obama was ASKING Abe to delay a visit to Yasukuni last year.

@tinawatanabeAUG. 28, 2014 - 10:41PM JST

lincolnman VP Biden said over the phone to PM "I told P. Park that you won't go to the shrine" You probably don't read J papers. It's not only me that hit the ceiling.

@lincolnmanAUG. 28, 2014 - 11:00PM JST

Experts offering their OPINION - please go look the definition of this word up - it's clear you don't understand it. And let me ask again; do you prefer a form of government that limits free speech; Imperial Japan, China, North Korea, Russia?

@JTDanManAUG. 29, 2014 - 12:33AM JST

It is not just an opinion. Its an opinion which influences the US's decisions.

If diplomat uses "free speech" in his diplomacy work, he is a fool, not a diplomat. Simple as that.

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I got it - all the right wing fringees hate the US because some in the media express their First Amendment right and offer an opinion that Abe shouldn't have visited Yasukuni. And in your zero sum world, any critique of Japan is translated as automatic support for SKorea and China. I understand you live in that alternate reality.

But lets's look at a real, official foreign policy issue between the US and Japan - what do you have to say about Operation Tomodachi?

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The 1st amendment right has no power and don't exist outside the USA.

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lincolnman,

Many Japanese people think some 'net uyokus' are actually non-Japanese Japan haters who disguise themselves as patriotic Japanese citizens trolling online forums in attempt to lower the image of Japan/Japanese. While it is pointless to try and identify an individual on the other side of the computer screen, I don't think anyone here is a net uyoku. And here, you might learn something new about 'Netto Uyoku' you speak of;

http://yellowpeep.blogspot.com/2006/05/uyoku-obscure-cult.html

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lincolnman, Many Japanese people think some 'net uyokus' are actually non-Japanese Japan haters who disguise themselves as patriotic Japanese citizens trolling online forums in attempt to lower the image of Japan/Japanese. While it is pointless to try and identify an individual on the other side of the computer screen, I don't think anyone here is a net uyoku. And here, you might learn something new about 'Netto Uyoku' you speak of; http://yellowpeep.blogspot.com/2006/05/uyoku-obscure-cult.html

Yes, thank you - I actually think that several of the "Netto Uyoku" posters here may be non-Japanese. On the other hand, you may be aware that there is a strong strain of anti-US sentiment within the far right in Japan - stemming from Japan's defeat in WW II by the US and subsequent occupation, and the enforcement of Japan's peace constitution. The recent expression by the US Government of disappointment in PM Abe visiting Yasukini last year seems to resonant across the Netto Uyoku spectrum. I was hoping they would reply to my questions - I don't think any true Japanese would criticize Operation Tomodachi.

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lincolnman

I don't think any true Japanese would criticize Operation Tomodachi.

Completely agree. Even majority of Okinawa residents are supportive of that. Japan and the US have established, over all, really good relationship past 69 years for sure. So who are the anti-US or US haters in Japan? Socialists, lefties, politicians and scholars of so-called 'China schools(チャイナスクール),' Chukaku-ha (中核派)and etc. Often times they are very critical of whatever Japan or the US do yet rave about North Korea, South Korea and China and feel closer to the ideologies those countries are fueled with. And this is why "some Ultra-right (Net) Uyokus are NOT Japanese but some anti-Japan group in black van disguise." I mean, who would benefit from broken Japan-US tie? And why are there many posters and signs written in Chinese and hungul saying "the US get out from OUR Okinawa!" at Osprey demo? At the Article 9 revision protests?

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