U.S. State Department OKs possible $23 bil sale of F-35s to Japan

Meanwhile in reality child poverty rates are soaring and food lines are increasing, but somehow the need for a new toy is overriding all of that. Now that's a government that cares.

Meanwhile the strategy of having better weapons as deterrents for war seems to be working good. 23 billion coconuts is a small price to pay for this.

this jet-fighter is an overpriced lemon riddled with technical problems

the possible sale of 105 Lockheed Martin F-35 fighter jets to Japan at an estimated cost of $23 billion.

Isn't the J government already trillions of yen in debt?

Japan pressured to buy some shiny, useless toys to placate the the US over its imbalance in trade.

Japan, with very little natural resources except thousands of feet under the ocean, south of Tokyo is under absolutely zero risk of being attacked, except by Godzilla...

Meanwhile, quietly, everyone complaining started to learn to speak chinese.

If Japan is to take more responsibility in protecting the Pacific region and keeping China in check, it is going to have to build more Izumo-class ships armed with fighter jets.

But the Izumo-class ships were originally designed and sized as a helicopter carrier. Helicopters are not capable of intercepting a jet bomber or fighter. To counter such a threat, you need a jet fighter.

Conventional jet fighters like the F-15 or F-16 cannot operate off carriers. The Izumo is too small to handle the F-18.

The only kind of jet fighter capable of operating off a small carrier is a S/VTOL (Short/Vertical Take Off and Landing). The only such aircraft currently in production that meets that capability is the F-35B. The Izumo has been modified to handle the F-35B.

(And don't think about buying Russian jets. You don't buy weapons from your adversaries.)

Maybe Japan should buy them for $23 billion and sell them to China or Russia for $43 billion?

If Japan is to take more responsibility in protecting the Pacific region and keeping China in check, it is going to have to build more Izumo-class ships armed with fighter jets.

yep, but they are not allowed to have “offensive weapons” due to the constitution.

Actually the virus origins aren't 100% clear yet. So Japan simply must show the world (the neighbours) that it is actually buissiness as usual here.

Japan are actually planning to build their own 6th generation fighter.

Production to start around 2030.

From time immemorial, client states are supposed to give tribute to their master country.

Japan are actually planning to build their own 6th generation fighter.

Just insurance in case a nut job like Trump asks for sharing of development costs as well.

what a waste of money !!

Excellent news! Communist China won't like this at all, expect official protests as they always do when Japan beefs up defense. Japans ability to strike targets abroad first, and ask questions later, will be greatly enhanced.

Maybe Japan should buy them for $23 billion and sell them to China or Russia for $43 billion?

No no, only Softbank employees are allowed to do something like that.

Excellent news! Communist China won't like this at all, expect official protests as they always do when Japan beefs up defense. Japans ability to strike targets abroad first, and ask questions later, will be greatly enhanced.

Methinks thou doth not understand the meaning of the word "defense".

Looks like it will take 25 years to use them. What a waste of money.

tooheysnewToday  09:03 am JST

Japan are actually planning to build their own 6th generation fighter.

Production to start around 2030.

I hope Mitsubishi isn't in charge of building it. Going on their record for the MRJ regional jet, it won't be ready till about 2130.

Methinks thou doth not understand the meaning of the word "defense".

I sure do, and Japan is well within her right to strike at targets outside of her EEZ in order to protect Japanese lives and economic interests. One example, the Japanese Navy is entitled to strike at enemies on land or sea in the Horn of Africa area to protect Japans shipping.

Strike planes are not simply to strike at enemies in your own national borders. These 105 world-leading F-35s will give Japan a great regional strike capacity, to defend her interests.

Some think that the bellicose nations close to Japan are going to hug n cuddle Japan in the coming decade ?

Of course Japan needs these to show it has the intent of protecting its borders its interests and its people.

Some of the production will be carried out by Mitsubishi in Japan providing jobs to workers too.

This is a great idea 100 high end fighter jets means Japan has a stronger defense system something you should all be pleased about, because it means you wont be forced to succumb to the paper Tiger or the Hammer n Sicle in coming years with luck.

"Just insurance in case a nut job like Trump asks for sharing of development costs as well."

The partner nations in the F-35 program already shared the development costs. The US, Canada, UK, Australia, Italy, Netherlands, Norway and Denmark spent their nations money up front to develop that aircraft. In turn they get an aircraft tailored to their needs and production contracts for it many components. Japan, Israel, South Korea, Poland and Belgium didn't front any money for its development and won't be expected to unless they want something specific to their version such as Norway, which is paying to integrate its Joint Strike Missile into the F-35 or Israel which is installing their own electronics in them on their own dime. Because Japan wishes to use LRASM from their F-35s they will probably pay part of the cost to integrate that weapon onto the F-35. I suspect the US will pay much of the cost as they probably want to use it from their Navy's F-35Cs.

"Japan, with very little natural resources except thousands of feet under the ocean, south of Tokyo is under absolutely zero risk of being attacked, except by Godzilla..."

Well I have some news for you. The Chinese call Okinawa "Japanese occupied China". They have other territorial claims against smaller Japanese islands. Their "leaders" (I have to swallow my vomit when I say that) still nurse a grudge over WWII (never mind Mao was a coward who ran and hid in the north while Chiang Kai-shek did all the fighting ) and would attack Japan tomorrow if they thought they could get away with it. If China ever attacks Taiwan and gets away with it, Japan will be next. Don't be naive. China hates Japan. I have a Chinese wife. I hear it all the time. i like the Japanese and admire the JMSDF. Well trained, great equipment, great operators. Maybe the best anti submarine navy there is. My wife tells me to never trust the Japanes. That is real life. Learn to deal with. Japan has enemies and needs to be able to defend themselves.

"But the Izumo-class ships were originally designed and sized as a helicopter carrier. Helicopters are not capable of intercepting a jet bomber or fighter. To counter such a threat, you need a jet fighter."

At 27,000 tons full load they are comparable in size to the MMI Cavour and the Juan Carlos class LHDs operated by Spain, Australia and Turkey. Spain operates Harriers from hers still, having put off for budget reasons purchasing F-35Bs. Cavour operates the F-35B now. Australia isn't saying yet if they will or won't and Turkey for now is out of the F-35 program. I suspect the next pair of "Multi-purpose Operation Destroyers" for the JMSDF will be much larger and more capable, aircraft carriers in all but name. I joke that if the UK finds itself in dire enough economic straits Japan might find a good deal on a pair of large VSTOL aircraft carriers with new hulls very few hours on their systems. Call them JS Shokaku and JS Zuikaku.

"Japan pressured to buy some shiny, useless toys to placate the the US over its imbalance in trade."

Find out what the latest ground based air defense systems from Russia and China are capable of and you will understand why the F-35 is necessary. Legacy aircraft like the F-15, F-16 and F/A-18 cannot get past these systems. The same missiles and even better radars are on Chinese warships. Unless you have an aircraft with all aspect low observables you will be shot down long before you can attack your target. The missiles from the 1980s had ranges under 100 km and the launchers were not mobile (unless 45 minutes to set up and another 45 minutes to take everything down again is "mobile". S300/350/400 and its Chinese counterparts have ranges out to 400km, and launch vehicles that can set up in under a minute, fire missiles 15 seconds later and be rolling down the road again less than a minute after firing the last missile. Only the Big Bird radar takes 5 minutes to set up and strike down. The Russians watched their systems get badly defeated in 1982 by the Israelis, and again in 1991 in Iraq. China likewise watched what happened in Iraq. They learned lessons and now the systems the triumphed in those conflicts are check mated by the latest ground based systems from Russia and China. Now all aspect L-O is the only way to survive in aerial warfare against an enemy like China with the best ground and sea based air defenses. Btw, it won't be any easier for the Chinese going against ships with Aegis, SM-6 and ESSM. The west hasn't stood still either.

Japans ability to strike targets abroad first, and ask questions later, will be greatly enhanced.

If the F-35's are spotted they will be chased by SU-35s which are 780 km/h faster. They will not be able to escape being shot down in such cases.

The single engine F-35 achilles heel is it's slow top speed of mach 1.61. The Air superiority fighters of the enemy fly at mach 2.25. As long as they stay hidden they can escape, but firing weapons tends to give you away and once your found your chances of survival become slim.

The partner nations in the F-35 program already shared the development costs. The US, Canada, UK, Australia, Italy, Netherlands, Norway and Denmark spent their nations money up front to develop that aircraft.

The partner nations' total contributions is $4.3 billions. Miniscule contribution! And is not representative of the 'now' apparent total cost of the program.

The only way for USA to get any benefit from the partners now is for partners to order more airframes so as to get higher efficiency and reduce production cost.

In the context of my original post, Japan knows it's getting one heck of a deal, as it has costed up its own program. As a comparison, India (alone) has reportedly spent over a billion dollars towards the PAK/FA program and still has nothing to show for it.

If the F-35's are spotted they will be chased by SU-35s which are 780 km/h faster. They will not be able to escape being shot down in such cases.

Old, obsolete thinking. The F35 is designed around a force multiplication and standoff war fighting capability.

If F35 was tasked with interdiction, it would see the enemy well before the enemy sees it, and the enemy would then be targeted with missiles from asset networked with the F35.

If the F35 was tasked with attacking a ground target, it would have all the help of other assets like growlers, awacs etc. It would not be detected before the target is destroyed.

The whole idea of a 5th gen fighter is to safely send them up for them to do a job 'at a distance', beyond visual range, beyond radar detection, and NOT unnecessarily engage in combat (where you have a 50/50 chance of being shot down).

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/adf-still-doesnt-know-if-us-will-compensate-raaf-for-jet-that-burst-into-flames-18-months-ago/ar-AAEwpM2?li=AAavLaF&%25253Bocid=mails

ADF still doesn't know if US will compensate RAAF for jet that burst into flames 18 months ago

The JSDF better have a good look at the warranties before paying up.

Trump's little fingerprints all over this.

Just develop home grown nukes like North Korea.

Does Japan really need to spend this money right now? I think that that money could be better spent on other things, especially whilst we're in the middle of the dam virus situation, and what about supporting people down in the south, and central parts of the country who are having a miserable time with rain and mud slides. how about providing blow up beds for people to sleep on in the emergency shelters, portable screens for privacy? hostels for the venerable and the homeless?

I wonder if Mr Trump has any shares in Lockheed Martin industries?

Japan v China. As if it was a game of Trobriander cricket. The fevered imaginings of individuals who are quite mad. Japan purchases jets, after being strong-armed by the US. Jets that fall out of the sky of their own accord. The ploy, to protect or project, which is absurd. China would crush and obliterate Japan. As would Russia. The age-old, they would make the rubble bounce and the living would envy the dead.

Richard GallagherToday  07:18 pm JST

China would crush and obliterate Japan.

China is only more powerful in an all-out war, in which case China would also be obliterated in accordance with Article 5 of the US-JPN Mutual Defense Treaty. The JSDF are fully capable of resisting any limited conventional engagement with China.

Meanwhile, they claim they cannot afford to give citizens another assistance money payment. And how much was that Aegis debacle.

May we know. Where is that money coming from !?.

It's beggar's belief how clueless so many commentators seem to be about China's increasingly aggressiveness towards its neighbours.

Whether we really need those F35s is one thing.

But we definitely need to at least beef up our defences.

"But the Izumo-class ships were originally designed and sized as a helicopter carrier. "

No they're not.

The Izumo's were designed to carry the F35-B and the Osprey helicopters from the get go.

That's why the lift was built to support both crafts weight; the hangar arranged to accommodate either.

There is speculation that the landing platform came already heat-treated.

"Helicopter carrier", a euphemism for a real carrier. Japan playing with words, to appease the Chinese and Koreans.

This is public information available to all, for over 2 years now.

"If the F-35's are spotted they will be chased by SU-35s which are 780 km/h faster. They will not be able to escape being shot down in such cases.

The single engine F-35 achilles heel is it's slow top speed of mach 1.61. The Air superiority fighters of the enemy fly at mach 2.25. As long as they stay hidden they can escape, but firing weapons tends to give you away and once your found your chances of survival become slim."

The F-35 was never intended to be an air superiority fighter. That's what the F-22 is for. The Americans should have probably called it the A-35. It's reason for existence is to deliver ordnance against ground and naval targets defended by the best, most recent ground or sea based air defense missile systems and not be detected while doing so. If a SU-35, J-11 or J-20 for example even detects an F-35 then it's mission plan has failed on multiple levels. Btw, the detection ranges on aircraft radars are far less than those of surface based systems unless you are talking about something line an AWACS or E-2D. Aircraft with pointy noses can't have huge megawatt radars on them like surface based systems have. They also don't have enough power or cooling. The real threat is not enemy fighters but their ground and sea based systems. In most cases an enemies surface based radars, absent stealth, will detect an enemy aircraft before the aircraft can detect the enemy with its onboard radar. It's a simple matter of power and size.

Btw, using supersonic speeds utterly defeats stealth. While the aircraft might not be detectable at those speeds due to all the L-O features on it, a supersonic shock wave very much is detectable. In combat it will never use supersonic speed unless it is a dire emergency and the pilot is willing to accept being detected to deal with some other unexpected problem. The F-16 and Gripen are not Mach 2 fighters either but the F-16 in particular has a stellar combat history. Anything above Mach 1.6 requires very expensive variable geometry inlets. Air entering a jet engine must be subsonic so the inlets have to take supersonic air and slow it down to a subsonic speed for the compressor. Above Mach 1.6 this usually means expensive to build and maintain variable geometry inlets. Those only turn up on the fastest fighters. In any event history shows most aerial combat occurs in the transonic range. Going Mach 2 or greater is exceedingly rare. Those kinds of speeds might be used to intercept an incoming attack as far from the home base as possible but you don't see attacking aircraft going mach anything and dogfights are generally subsonic to transonic.

"But the Izumo-class ships were originally designed and sized as a helicopter carrier. "

No they're not.

The Izumo's were designed to carry the F35-B and the Osprey helicopters from the get go.

That's why the lift was built to support both crafts weight; the hangar arranged to accommodate either.

There is speculation that the landing platform came already heat-treated.

"Helicopter carrier", a euphemism for a real carrier. Japan playing with words, to appease the Chinese and Koreans.

This is public information available to all, for over 2 years now."

I'm waiting to see if the JMSDF puts a ski jump on the Izumo's or simply re-positions the forward CIWS somewhere off the flight deck and just paints some new markings on the flight deck. Adding a ski jump greatly increases range and payload for the F-35B when launching them from ships. The US Navy doesn't put ski jumps on their LHA/LHDs because they would lose four helo landing spots. Losing those four spots would increase the time they need to put the Marine Amphibious Brigade ashore. They have a really elaborate planning system for amphibious assaults (the whole force has to unload in something like six hours) and every helo spot counts. The Marines accept the resulting limitations on the F-35 to keep those four landing spots.

"Why is the government wasting our tax money on these planes in the midst of a pandemic that has decimated the domestic economy? Does anyone really expect China or North Korea to stage an invasion?"

Yes. I have a Chinese wife. Take it from me, the Chinese hate the Japanese and want revenge for WWII. If they ever succeed in taking Taiwan by force (god forbid the US is defeated trying to protect Taiwan) Japan would be next. Don't kid yourself. China considers Okinawa to be Chinese territory occupied by Japan. They have said as much in the People's Daily. Xi Jinping is more like Mao than any Chinese "leader" (excuse me while I swallow my vomit) since Mao himself. He only understands force. See what happened to Hong Kong and Xinjiang? If you are not willing to fight Xi and the CCP will take you by brute force.

Oh, the US has approved the deal?

Hahaha... when Japan requested the F22 and the US kind of forced them to accept the F35 instead.

"Japan v China. As if it was a game of Trobriander cricket. The fevered imaginings of individuals who are quite mad. Japan purchases jets, after being strong-armed by the US. Jets that fall out of the sky of their own accord. The ploy, to protect or project, which is absurd. China would crush and obliterate Japan. As would Russia. The age-old, they would make the rubble bounce and the living would envy the dead."

Russia has essentially no ability to invade Japan. At this point Russia is Mexico with a bunch of old nukes of questionable reliability. They could throw ICBMs at Japan but they really don't have any kind of amphibious lift and the JGSDF is vastly better equipped and trained than the Red Army. I have seen the PLAN and JMSDF up close and personal. I've had the pleasure of operating with the JMSDF at sea. Outside of the US Navy they are the best trained and equipped navy there is. Better than the Royal Navy. Before China had aircraft carriers the JMSDF could have handled the PLAN. The addition of aircraft carriers and big replenishment ship to the PLAN makes them harder to defeat, but were Japan to add a couple of larger "Multi-Purpose Operation Destroyers" alongside the two Izumo class i'de give Japan good odds on handling the PLAN. The PLAN isn't nearly as well trained as the JMSDF and the lack of experience in naval warfare is obvious if you ever see one of their ships up close. Ain't saying more than that, but when you are inside a JMSDF ship you can see the hard learned lessons of WWII everywhere (just as you see in US Navy ships). You have to be experienced with ships to see these differences but they are critical. Russian warships are similarly deficient.

I'm going to be more precise than Peeping_Tom. 

The Izumo-class was originally designed to operate the Boeing CH-47 Chinook. One of the largest helicopters in service in the world. And they also prepared the design to incorporate their substitute. The Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey to replace it in 10 to 15 years.

Keep in mind that the commission to build the Izumo was in 1993. And the first preliminary design was released in 1997. And it was not until 2004 that the Diet approved the current and final design, with the Koizumi government.

The Izumo was never designed to operate fighter planes. Nor was it intended to operate the F-35B.

Their initial mission is anti-submarine hunting. Which, although it may not seem like it, helicopters are the most efficient and cheapest way. To locate and destroy a submarine. The size of the Izumo gives it great operational capability in deep water. Like the Pacific Ocean. By giving it a superior tracking extension.

The need to adapt the Izumo for the F-35B, lies in the implementation of the Chinese operators. Although it will only serve as a training platform for future aircraft carriers and maritime border surveillance.

Never for combat missions or war in general.

"Japan begins refitting first of two Izumo-class carriers to support F-35B operations"

"The 248 m-long, 24,000-tonne Izumo class has been built with weight considerations for the F-35B in various parts, including the stowage, elevators, and flight deck."

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/japan-begins-refitting-first-of-two-izumo-class-carriers-to-support-f-35b-operations

The end of the "Helicopter-carrier" charade.

"Officials Admit Japan's 'Helicopter Destroyers' Were Also Designed For Jets"

"https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18855/officials-admit-japans-helicopter-destroyers-were-also-designed-for-jets"

"The Izumo-class was originally designed to operate the Boeing CH-47 Chinook. One of the largest helicopters in service in the world."

Not really. I've flown civilian Chinooks and dearly love them. They are gentle giants, easy and forgiving to fly and pretty fast by rotary wing standards. But for size and weight the Sh1thook his dwarfed by the CH-53E, CH-53K and several stupendously large Russian helicopters including the Mi-26. The Chinook's max take off weight is 55,000 lbs. The Mi-26 max takeoff weight is 123,000 lbs. The cabin in the Mi-26 is tall enough to accommodate an off road mining dump truck. It has an overhead gantry crane inside. The rotor system is as wide as the wingspan of a C-130 Hercules. Despite this the Russian helos are not very efficient. While the Mi-26 can lift 18 tons (but it can't do it on full fuel except at sea level) the Chinook can lift 14 tons (limited only by the gearboxes torque rating) and can do so at considerable altitudes. We worked side by side with Russians flying the Mi-26 and Ka-32. Now the Ka-32 is an impressive lifter. Not terribly fast or maneuverable but it sure can lift loads.

"Their initial mission is anti-submarine hunting. Which, although it may not seem like it, helicopters are the most efficient and cheapest way. To locate and destroy a submarine"

In blue water that is true Two helicopters with dipping sonar and crews who know their craft are probably a submarine's worst enemy. The sub can hear the helos, sure, but once they have contact one can dip and get a bearing while the other runs out on the bearing to chase the sub. They tag team the sub until one is close enough to go active. Then it's all over for the sub. With bearing and range, the other helo flies right over the sub, confirms it's down there with MAD (Magnetic Anomaly Detector) and drops torpedos. Done.

In shallow water none of that works. The sub will mover very slowly and noiselessly or maybe sit still near or even on the bottom and become very hard to find. Then it becomes a waiting game using UUVs and UAVs to lay sensors and look for the sub.

""The 248 m-long, 24,000-tonne Izumo class has been built with weight considerations for the F-35B in various parts, including the stowage, elevators, and flight deck."

Just a guess but I would bet more than beers the JMSDF wanted to be able to operate with USMC F-35Bs when they wrote the requirements for the Izumo class.

"Hahaha... when Japan requested the F22 and the US kind of forced them to accept the F35 instead."

The F-22 was never designed with foreign sales in mind. Everything on it is classified, which means worn out components that would usually be scrapped have to be handled as classified material with all the security measures inherent, and returned to the US for disposal. Same thing for parts coming from the US. The F-35 was designed specifically with foreign sales in mind and only the US and UK receive all of the low observable features the jet is capable of. Other nations receive a jet that would not reveal the US best tech in the event one were to be compromised to an adversary nation.

Btw, if you look at the cost per flight hour for the F-22 it is stupendous. It's as costly to fly per hour as a B-52. It's twice as expensive per hour as an F-15 and 3 1/2 times more expensive per hour than an F/A-18E/F (which has the lowest cost per flight hour of any twin engine tactical jet). That is the reason the USAF didn't buy more of them. The cost per hour was such they didn't have enough money in the flight hour budget to afford the normal amount of flight hours used for training.

Ken WyattJuly 11  10:07 pm JST

It's beggar's belief how clueless so many commentators seem to be about China's increasingly aggressiveness towards its neighbours.

They'not clueless. They know exactly what they're doing.

Maybe Japan should buy them for $23 billion and sell them to China or Russia for $43 billion?

Sure. But the software will be disabled for all Japanese military aircraft in that situation. Only the US via LM have the code and keys for installation.

Many countries including my own abandoned the F-35 for its lack of stability and huge cost overruns. Japan need not feel it has to embrace a shoddy product to appease the USA. There is plenty of evidence that it is not worthy