politics

World cannot afford China-Japan dispute, says IMF chief

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By Miwa Suzuki

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© 2012 AFP

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The ball is in the Chinese camp. They give up or throw their weight around to pressure Japan to cave in. I don't China will give up that easily...

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

Chinese think they belong to another world and they dont give a shit about other economies! As for now neither Japan nor China will give up and this trouble will just escalate! This looks extremely bad for both China and Japan.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

And woes have been the tales from many Global Macro-Economic Intellect Derelicts of past. But, what about each and every citizen from each and every entity involved IR Baboons? Are you going to throw each and every party a bone as an incentive to come into agreement over the lost resources if one party should concede? Not. International Court is the place…Hurry along!

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

The world can't? Let's not blow it out of proportion. Japan can't afford a dispute with China! The economic costs and losses as a result of lost trade with China will far outweigh the 'possible' benefits of the as yet unknown gas and oil fields around the Senkoku islets. Japan needs trade with China more than it needs a few specs of rock near Taiwan. If only these right-wing twits would realize this. They would be doing themselves a huge economic favor by just giving the islands back to China and striking a trade deal for them. But instead, the want to play imperialistic hard ass. Fools!

2 ( +7 / -5 )

Wow... first time in my life I hear some common sense from the IMF. Clearly, the world can't afford ANY territorial dispute.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@TumbleDryOct. 03, 2012 - 01:46PM JST

The ball is in the Chinese camp. They give up or throw their weight around to pressure Japan to cave in. I don't China will give up that easily.

According the Senkaku Islands wiki-The free encyclopedia, that dispute existed from 1968. Between 1968 to 2009, there were no noise and direct confrontation between Japan and China. Late Deng Xiaopping famously said that he was not wise enough to fix that dispute. He leave the dispute for New generation who will be wiser than him.

However new generation of J leaders like pre war nationalist right wing extermist. They could not concetrate on domestic issue and they made some mess and noise. the ball is not only in Chinese camp but also Japanese camp. Instead of confronting each other, they have to transfer that Islets to Taiwan which is a righful owner. It will be win win and also peace and prosperity for all.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

AthletesOct. 03, 2012 - 02:58PM JST

According the Senkaku Islands wiki-The free encyclopedia, that dispute existed from 1968. Between 1968 to 2009, there were no noise and direct confrontation between Japan and China.

The garbage you are posting in the name of Wikipedia is NOT what is written on Wiki. The dispute was only announced 1971, and thus a non-issue in 1968-1970 when the formal agreements to transfer the islands to Japan were drafted. Also according to Wikipedia, 27 October 2006, 10 June 2008, 16 June 2008 there were incidents of Chinese citizens and even the Chinese "coast guard" military unit attempting to fish in restricted waters or land on the islands. In 1909, there were 248 Japanese citizens and laborers on the islands, and there were no known inhabitants before that. In fact, there was never a mention or evidence of anyone LANDING on the islands until 1885.

If you wish to support your arguments, do so by finding actual articles supporting your arguments, not by sullying the image of Wikipedia by stating it has things written that it never did.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

The main reason for IMF saying that is because of unilateral actions from China. For some reason it isn't written in the article, but the Chinese withdrew their banks from the IMF meeting, and therefore any IMF matters arising from that meeting. This is highly suspect action, with likely implications more pressing than some small non-issue like Senkoku.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

basroil Oct. 03, 2012 - 04:42PM JST

I was born in 1962. I may be old enough to be your father. Pls do not insult the other poster with impolite and arrogant words. After all you are not a Son of God. How did you describe the the following link as Garbage? It was my reference. If you are not happy, you can email and lecture to them. It was not written by me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands

They have to research many years before they made web site. You also insulted other people hard work. Whether you agree with them or not is entirely yours.

Back in 1968, I was old enough to remember the discovery of oil and gas deposit from that Islands. ROC and PRC disputed since then. The formal and official announcement was made in 1971.

Japan surrendered WWII unconditionally. They did not make any pre condition for leaving some Islands for them. When China and Russia lost the wars to Japan they did not demand anything from Japan. Unless General Macarthur biased to Japan, there were no more dispute existed or no more dramas.

US allies Taiwan and South Korea will not tolerate any bias toward Japan right now. In the fairy tale, all US allies will stand up against bad evils China and North Korea. However it is becoming other way around to Japan at the moment. Only Japan can unite all Asian nations for standing up for their interest.

Japan is becoming like Israel which is surrounded by hostile nations. Unlike Israel, it is not able to defend her interest by herself. Japan can not behave like Israel because they are not exactly same item.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands has been edited so many times in the last two months, largely by Chinese IPs (and Japanese ones too), that the Wikipedia editors have frozen the page. That page does not have any of the arguments claimed to have been a part of the page.

Actual arguments for and against each side are in: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands_dispute

1 ( +2 / -1 )

China-Japan trade has been growing by leaps and bounds and that makes great economic sense for both nations and the world. Why would Japan as a nation want to stop that? The fact that Tokyo Metro Official, a well known right wing militarist, stirred up the issue to gain political clout should raise a flag to the majority of people of Japan. Do Japan people want to see the revival of Imperial Militarism? Does U.S. want to see Japan moving in that direction? Do Korea and Southeast Asian countries want to see that? The right wing Japanese militarists like to ignore and change parts of history that do not fit their image of "beautiful japan" in which WWII is a no fault war or perhaps even Japan was the victim. The hideous war crimes carried out the the Japanese Militarists during WWII are part of the true history and can not be changed and the Korean's advice to Japan "re-educate Japanese the WWII" should not be ignored. Even at the end of the WWII, the militarist still wanted to force people committing suicides, see: Okinawa anger at textbook plans http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6229256.stm

3 ( +5 / -2 )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku_Islands has been edited so many times in the last two months,

Hence the problem of using Wiki to substantiate any claims from either side of the argument.

This has to be settled peacefully by either the two countries themselves OR by the international court, which should also impose a binding agreement that until the issue is settled that NEITHER country may enter the waters surrounding the islands, or at least establish a sort of DMZ around them and use the UN to monitor and keep interlopers from either side at bay until the dispute is over.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

If China and Taiwan have their act together, they can kick the japanese out and bring Taiwanese companies in to take over japanese businesses. I am not sure if they will make the same gyoza and onigiris. The European economic malaise is coming this way.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

"the global economy needs both Japan and China fully engaged"

This is indeed a job for the IMF ( Impossible Mission Force ) !

1 ( +1 / -0 )

No such thing as "we need China and Japan" to get along. The world will keep spinning without these two countries, try it.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

The world will keep spinning

That's not the question, but for each conflict the bill is shared by the whole planet. Look what happened after Iraq wars. All the countries saw an economic downturn after. And we can't afford, that means that would be paid on credit, the burden of debts would increase.

Taiwanese companies in to take over japanese businesses

The Taiwanese companies have been to Mainland... and quickly, they have ran away, relocating in South-East Asia. About 15 yrs ago. Everybody that goes to China gets problem with the Chinese regime and the Chinese gangs at some point. Their reform is really overdue.

Do Japan people want to see the revival of Imperial Militarism?

China and Koreas don't risk a revival, they are still with that militarism in 2012.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

world will keep spinning without these two countries

This is very true but the global economy is going to slow down until the Japanese companies move their manufacturing out of China and other sources of rare earths are developed. With the US and European economies dragging along it would help if the Chinese economy didn't slow as well. But that is what is happening and the Senkaku dispute isn't helping either countries economy. It might help the politicians and it probably sells newspapers but that's about it.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Why would Japan as a nation want to stop that?

It's China and her citizens that are destroying and looting Japanese businesses in China remember? It's the China that has been deliberately delaying customs of imports from Japan, remember?

Bringing the historical past of Japan is weak especially in light of the fact that China herself made no effort to educate her brainwashed masses of post war Japan's contribution especially to China. Take that silly argument to another thread.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Tzu Fann Shao the only "good" relations was trade. However Chinese are taught to hate Japanese from the day they are born. They hate all Japanese and that includes the peaceful people of Okinawa. It makes no difference what Japan does or does not do in relation with either China. I keep reading "things were be alright except for the Japanse "fill in action" and I say "BULLFROG!!!!" Japan is the goat to keep their own citizens occupied and not against either Chinese government.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

How about this, the all the disputed islands goes under the UN. Not country can fish or develop those areas and 12 miles around there or follow the Chinese and make it 200 miles. Then everyone will be unhappy making for a happy ending.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

What BS the IMF and World Bank are putting out. What do you mean we can't afford to let these two go to war? How do you think we got out of the Great Depression? We went to war. Big time global war, called a World War. This time, we envision Regional War I or II conducted in a civilized manner, as if war is ever civilized.

How do we keep it regionalized. Let's not forget that America's mutual defense treaty with Japan obligates the US to protect the Senkaku islands if Japan is attacked. Take note: "if Japan is attacked" and not "if"Japan is the aggressor." Yes, Japan is hard-pressed by China and the ROC to defend its interests, especially since its major islands have no oil and no natural gas to speak of and its people no longer want nuclear facilities on their islands. On the other hand, Japan is "afraid" of pressing too hard for the natural resources it so desperately needs from the Senkaku islands, even though this is the only way that it can retain its position as a world-class economy selling goods at competitive prices.

Likewise, China knows it cannot be the aggressor by launching the first shot, because that will invite American retaliation. For our part, we want Japan to press harder, but we don't want to be actively engaged in war with China. If those two engage in war, with us on the sidelines, we can again dominate the world economy with our own automobiles and refrigerators and TV sets, as well as providing drones and armaments to both sides of the warring parties. What do we gain? No more Great Recession in the US or the EU. So, we send two carrier groups into the area just to raise the ante by further pissing off China while "seemingly" bolstering Japan to be more aggressive in asserting its claim to the islands.

We win. They lose.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

I see that the usual paid PRC internet water army are here spreading their propaganda.

But now it's time for a little truth.

The IMF is correct, but the PRC does not care. They want everything they can get their hands on and they do not care what it hurts. The PRC wants the islands that their great-great-great-grandparents gave away and they do not care how they get them.

Imagine if you will, 115 years ago someones great-great-great-grandfather thought he was going to fight with your great-great-great-grandfather who was much smaller.

Then the other guys lost the fight and had to pay your great-great-great-grandfather for damages by giving up land.

Well then 115 years later a few far relatives of the guy your great-great-great-grandfather beat come around and want the land back and are blaming you because of what their relative did.

How would you feel?

As for me I would ticked off and would defend that land because it was mine and those far relatives were trying to steal it.

Samething the PRC is doing.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

More reality rather than PRC propaganda.

For those people that think the world needs the PRC and the PRC does not need the world you are truely living in a fantasy realm.

The PRC does not understand that busnisses' can as easily move out as they moved in. The PRC made a grave mistake when they had their paid protesters destroy factories that employed their own people.

Those PRC paid protests showed the world that China is not good for business. The PRC believed that China was the only place that companies could do business in, but that thinking is very naive.

If you follow business trends you will see that factories are beginning to relocate out of China. It's a stream right now, but do not be surprised if that stream turns into a river overnight.

You have to payoff too many people to keep your factory functioning. If you do not payoff the right amount of people, your factories burn to the ground.

Corporation are seeing the light, China is corrupt and it is too expensive to do business there. Labor maybe cheap, but if you have to payoff every single person there to get that cheap labor you lose money.

The PRC needs to clean up it's act and get back to doing business before the world walks away and all their new found billionaires are back wearing PRC party grey.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Chinese are taught to hate Japanese from the day they are born. They hate all Japanese and that includes the peaceful people of Okinawa.

Not only Chinese hate Japan, the North Koreans and South Koreans too. And even the people of Okinawa hate Japan as well.

Source:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/world/asia/07okinawa.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all

1 ( +2 / -1 )

How about this, the all the disputed islands goes under the UN.

Japan did cede the Ryukyu islands and Diaoyu islands to the UN under a UN trusteeship according to Article 3 of the San Francisco Peace Treaty which says:

"Japan will concur in any proposal of the United States to the United Nations to place under its trusteeship system, with the United States as the sole administering authority, Nansei Shoto south of 29deg. north latitude (including the Ryukyu Islands and the Daito Islands)... "

As a result, the Ryukyu islands and Diaoyu islands were regarded as foreign lands to the Japanese between 1945 to 1971. And Japanese who visited these islands during that period must have their Japanese passport stamped at the Ryukyu immigration. Older generations of Japanese who lived through that period such as chamkun can testify to this fact.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@JoeBigsOct. 04, 2012 - 07:18AM JST

I see that the usual paid PRC internet water army are here spreading their propaganda.

In the reality, they posted with their heart. Not the hatred with biased politcal agenda.

But now it's time for a little truth.

Sound like it has very little truth.

Well then 115 years later a few far relatives of the guy your great-great-great-grandfather beat come around and want the land back and are blaming you because of what their relative did.

Well! Germany admited their forefathers sins and crimes and happily move forward with neighbors. Unlike Japan, Germany is honest and did not bite or bark with any neighbors. Germany is a builder of EU friendship. Japan is a wrecker of Asian friendship.

@JoeBigsOct. 04, 2012 - 07:31AM JST

For those people that think the world needs the PRC and the PRC does not need the world you are truely living in a fantasy realm.

The world does not needs PRC. The world needs PRC MONEY and contribution more and more at the moments. Right now, IMF and World Banks are making meeting with Chinese banks sponsorship at Tokyo. However they are disappointed Chinese banks will not come to attend. J governement can not afford to repay the debt to citizens. It is keep selling bonds to pay the dividends. If there is no return, local bond holders will withdraw their money with Panic. Japan will face the problem of capital flight likes EU.

It is also true for US can not keep printing money forever. It will need the circulated money from Chinese banks for investing in potential industry such as mid west Soy beam firms or super quiet Jet engines. At the end, money talk! Therefore China is getting more assetive.

Corporation are seeing the light, China is corrupt and it is too expensive to do business there. Labor maybe cheap, but if you have to payoff every single person there to get that cheap labor you lose money.

It is not entirely true for greatest innovative firms such as Apple. Apple has been making tons of money for giving contract to China via Foxcomm. According Apple CEO, there is no other place like in this world which is a money machine for Apple. Just 13 years ago, Apple was facing the almost extinciton with bankruptcy.

Manufacturers went to China not only concern about Labor cost. The labor cost in Africa, Sri Lanka and Bangaladesh are many times cheaper than China. After making products, there is a market for making money. Without a realiable making for selling goods, moving to those nations will not translate to the growth story of Apple.

The PRC needs to clean up it's act and get back to doing business before the world walks away and all their new found billionaires are back wearing PRC party grey.

The world is urging PRC for stimulating their economy at the moment. US, Japan and EU demand are so weak at the moment. When PRC stimulated in 2008, world wide commodities and end user goods are struggling with meeting the demand from PRC. PRC has 1.3 billions consumers for making the smiles of world wide merchants. If there is no market, there will be no capital and no economic growth elsewhere.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Guru29Oct. 04, 2012 - 10:47AM JST

Japan did cede the Ryukyu islands and Diaoyu islands to the UN under a UN trusteeship according to Article 3 of the San Francisco Peace Treaty which says:

"Japan will concur in any proposal of the United States to the United Nations to place under its trusteeship system, with the United States as the sole administering authority, Nansei Shoto south of 29deg. north latitude (including the Ryukyu Islands and the Daito Islands)... "

As a result, the Ryukyu islands and Diaoyu islands were regarded as foreign lands to the Japanese between 1945 to 1971. And Japanese who visited these islands during that period must have their Japanese passport stamped at the Ryukyu immigration. Older generations of Japanese who lived through that period such as chamkun can testify to this fact.

In other words, when the chains were given back to Japan, it was a legal transaction and Japan rightfully owns the land. Hence China's actions are entirely illegal and simply war-mongering.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

In other words, when the chains were given back to Japan, it was a legal transaction and Japan rightfully owns the land.

So you think US=UN like what the Japanese government and most Japanese posters here believe?

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

If those two engage in war, with us on the sidelines, we can again dominate the world economy with our own automobiles and refrigerators and TV sets, as well as providing drones and armaments to both sides of the warring parties. What do we gain? No more Great Recession in the US or the EU. So, we send two carrier groups into the area just to raise the ante by further pissing off China while "seemingly" bolstering Japan to be more aggressive in asserting its claim to the islands.

We win. They lose.

You're the first Realpolitick thinker on this site who has gone beyond facile stereotyping and black and white thinking, kudos!

To add to your analysis of the Great Game, note that China dropped the petrodollar and made oil sales possible in Yuan on Sept 6, just before the Nationalization of the islands and the resulting conflict:

http://www.examiner.com/article/dollar-no-longer-primary-oil-currency-as-china-begins-to-sell-oil-using-yuan

0 ( +0 / -0 )

"Japan will concur in any proposal of the United States to the United Nations to place under its trusteeship system, with the United States as the sole administering authority, Nansei Shoto south of 29deg. north latitude (including the Ryukyu Islands and the Daito Islands)... "

Yes, and Administration is NOT Sovereignty.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

lachance

Yes, Japan is hard-pressed by China and the ROC to defend its interests, especially since its major islands have no oil and no natural gas to speak of and its people no longer want nuclear facilities on their islands.

You might want to supplement your thoughts with a good look at the map. By controlling the waters from the 4 main Japanese islands to the Senkakus/Diaoyus, China's maritime access to raw materials or exports to other countries by sea will be all but impossible without Japan's permission. US-Japan Navy will exert in perpatuity a choke-hold on Chinese Eastern seaboard. This is why it is a life-or-death matter for China and most certainly a trigger for a hot conflict.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Guru29 saying the Ryukyu people hate Japanese is wrong and simpleminded. We do not hate Chinese and Korean people as well. While we do not like the actions of the 4 governments, the people of the Ryukyu Island chain are not hateful people. Having said that China is escalating the conflict by sending in ships. How can Japan be the aggressor defending their own country? If the Senkaku islands fall, next will come the lower chain and eventually it all. Me I would like to see the US Marines leave Okinawa. Why because it is training bases and would not help much in defense.

About Japan should not defend itself for the sake of the world economy, BULLFROG! Using this line of thinking China could claim our entire country. Make Japan a special administrative area because we were once a tributary member of China. China needs to withdraw its ships from our islands.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

IMF is perfectly aware and play this game and strap many countries for certain entities to bring conflict and war.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Guru29 saying the Ryukyu people hate Japanese is wrong and simpleminded.

I said they hate Japan for denying and whitewashing its history of aggression and atrocities. Exactly like how the Chinese and Koreans feel.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Actually are wrong and while the people of Okinawa have issues with the Yamato people it is not hatred. When they tried to change history we reminded and make them stop the changes. It is getting to be old history, if I have any issues it is with Americans. My first 13 years was under the strict and cruel American occupation. They still do not get it and never will.

So the rest of the world wants Japan to give into thugs. Not going to happen, the more they push the more we will resist them.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

YuriOtaniOct. 05, 2012 - 09:02AM JST

Actually are wrong and while the people of Okinawa have issues with the Yamato people it is not hatred.

Ryuku was independent kingdom until 1879. It is true that they have no hatred to Yamaoto people until when they annexed their freedom. Truth is Okinawa has different custom, identity, consume, dietary supplement and heritage. Yamaoto used the Samurai swords and Guns for invading. Ryuku people used Nanchaku and Sai for defending their freedom. Okinawa likes native American who faced the injustice of ruthless aggressors.

Okinawa people loves pork like Chinese. Okinawa Tae or Karate was imported from Shaolin Temple of China. Art and Craft, Literacy, Poetry, Lion dance, festivals and Consume are more Chinese rather than Japanese. Kimono was not a national consume before. It was true Okinawa was never a colony of China. However Ancient China had heavy influence to Okinawa more than Japan.

So the rest of the world wants Japan to give into thugs. Not going to happen, the more they push the more we will resist them.

Japan has no friends among neighbors. There are many thugs not only China but also Russia, South Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, Brunei and Philippines too. Japan is becoming Israel among the hostile neighbors. Unlike Israel, it could not able to defend her interest by herself. Japan can not be arrogant and masculine like Israel. Respect is more important rather than biting and barking with neighbors.

Reality is simply Japan can not able to defeat to all thugs. Japan has tried in 1938 for that . It was failed in 1945. Japan has to move on with neighbors with friendly co-operation instead of con-confrontation.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

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