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Do you respect anti-vaxxers' stance?

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No. They are too stupid to even realize they lack the intelligence and ability to process scientific data. You would think not doing well in school would have given them a hint that they aren’t good at being smart.

28 ( +62 / -34 )

No! They are the reason we are in this situation! Humans have been using vaccines for years and they have only helped society. Now we get a bunch of crackpots who think watching a 5 minute video on YouTube is research and they don't need the vaccine. What is to respect in that!

25 ( +63 / -38 )

Not even antivaxxers respect their own stance, if you bring any other example where other people choices put them at any risk, and if they don't share the belief on that choice they will immediately condemn those people using the same arguments used to criticize rejection of vaccines.

24 ( +45 / -21 )

Do they have a right to an opinion? I believe they do.

Do they have the right to even a stupid opinion? I believe they do.

Do they have the right to voice their opinion, however stupid it may be to some? I believe they do.

Do I personally accept that they have an opinion? Yes, I do, even though I find that opinion completely moronic.

Do I respect their stance? Heck, not at all.

22 ( +35 / -13 )

No, they are selfish anti-science conspiracy nuts. There is nothing worthy of respect.

14 ( +39 / -25 )

I can't believe that I'm quoting America's Weirdest Religion / Money-making scheme here (and if you wonder how I know about that, I took an elective course in contemporary religion at college.which is why I'm an atheist), but the typical anti-vaxxer is actually pretty well described by half the list of traits of a Suppressive Person:

1) Such a person speaks only in very broad generalities (statements that give no details)

2) Such a person deals mainly in bad news, critical or hostile remarks, invalidation (making someone seem wrong or less worthy) and general suppression (actions that keep others down, make them fail, etc.).

3) (such a person) worsens the communication when he passes along a message or news. Good news is stopped and only bad news, often added to, is passed along.

4) (such a person) continually selects the wrong target (cause of things) for his anger.

5) (such a person) supports only destructive groups and attacks any constructive group or group working to help people.

6) Helping others is an activity that drives (such a person) nearly insane. Activities that destroy in the name of help, however, are closely supported.

I see quite a lot of anti-vaxxer rhetoric in there.

11 ( +35 / -24 )

No. You very often find anti-vaxxers follow a lot of other conspiracy theories.

Paranoia, a desire to show they are more intelligent and perceptive than they actually are, a predilection for hysteria etc.

This is holding us back.

9 ( +33 / -24 )

As noted by others, the science is clear and should be respected by getting vaccinated.

7 ( +30 / -23 )

Nope. Specially since most of the antivaxxers I know first, they were against the virus being real. Then they complained about wearing masks, that "my body, my choice." Then they were against any kind of lockdowns (that one 's understandable), any kind of social distancing or any measures to limit contact between people. Saying that this is all a farce from the government to establish control on the population (coz what government want people to stop paying taxes?). Now these same people either don't want to "take an experimental vaccine" or don't believe a vaccine might help.

An experience I had this year with these kind of people:

I met this person back in Feb this year. I was living in a communal building (sort of like a hostel) and we had two infected. Once we were given notifications of them being infected the hospital scheduled PCR tests for everyone, save this one person. This one person refused to get tested coz this one person didn't believed in PCR tests being 100% accurate.

Fine. We understood that person's point of view so we decided the right thing do to was quarantine ourselves in our individual rooms so that even if the tests said we were all negative, we wouldn't spread it around the small town.

But nope. Not that one person. That one person decided it was a great idea to go the prefectural offices to deal with residents stuff we all have to deal, go to work, shopping and even playing (hanging out) with other friends. All this, while this person is also an anti-masks so not wearing a mask either, not even at the city hall.

After I confronted that person for being such a spoiled brat, that person said he/she didn't believe the virus was such a big deal (even though our local businesses were all suffering big loses).

In other words, this one person being one selfish and irresponsible son of a mother. This one person is also an anti-vaxxer.

True, not every anti-vaxxer is like the "this one person" above; everyone's different. But big majority of anti-vaxxer I've met are like what I've described.

That said, I made up my mind and will get my vaccine as soon as possible... which is as soon as my city allows my age gap.

6 ( +27 / -21 )

Yes, surprisingly, there are anti-vaxxers in Japan. I was surprised to see an anti-vaccination demonstration in front of Shinjuku station on Sunday. I didn't see it reported on the news. There were probably 50 people.

6 ( +7 / -1 )

To the anti vaxxers, either get the vaccine or get covid. There's no other choice.

6 ( +10 / -4 )

OpenVAERS (US population) reports 12,366 post-covid deaths. The total death count due to all vaccines is 21,224.

First, I think you mean post-vaccine.

Second, everybody will die post-vaccine.

Third, VAERS doesn’t determine the vaccine as being the cause of death.

5 ( +15 / -10 )

Yes, surprisingly, there are anti-vaxxers in Japan. I was surprised to see an anti-vaccination demonstration in front of Shinjuku station on Sunday. I didn't see it reported on the news. There were probably 50 people.

It's quite big - anti-vaxxers got the HPV (cervical cancer) vaccination withdrawn, that will lead to lots of deaths and infertility.

5 ( +9 / -4 )

It is difficult enough to have debates on this subject, and this spelling will only cause the anti-vaccine side to become more defensive as they see this kind of mockery directed at them.

Antivaxxers (as not just people that are hesitant) are not interested in debating or reasoning, they actively reject any and all evidence that does not fit with their beliefs so it will not matter how people treat them, their position will not change. If they were able to respond to reason they would not be antivaxxers on the first place.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

Getting that vaccine banned will also prevent many people from dying or becoming permanently disabled from the vaccine.

This is completely false information according to the best available science, studies have demonstrated that the supposed problems with the vaccine were not only extremely rare (and not even involved deaths) but were presented in the same rates on people not vaccinated, which obviously meant being vaccinated never increased the risk in the first place.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26632553/

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/documents/referral/hpv-vaccines-article-20-procedure-ema-confirms-evidence-does-not-support-they-cause-crps-pots_en.pdf

Antivaxxers still want people to believe literally thousands of extra deaths every year because of their exaggerated warnings is completely fine, never willing to asume their responsibility on causing them.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(20)30047-5/fulltext

If HPV vaccination coverage is restored in 2020, including catch-up vaccination for those who missed their vaccination, 60% (14 800–16 300) of the projected cases of cervical cancer and 60% (3000–3400) of the related deaths could be prevented.

Repeating this false information, even when it has been proved false is an excellent example of how antivaxxer groups are not interested in protecting people but manipulating others with lies so more people will end up as mistaken as them, maybe because in their minds having lots of people believing false things somehow magically make those things less false.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

I respect everyone's opinion no matter what it is even if it is the opposite of my own.

4 ( +15 / -11 )

I was talking with a friend recently about a friend we have in common, an anti-vaxxer. When we were in university, I watched this guy open small flaps of paper and snort the white poweders inside. He was very into the cocaine, and did it most weekends. He had no idea where it had come from, what it was cut with or anything, but he'd snort it any way.

But the vaccines scare him. Hmmm....

4 ( +15 / -11 )

I am assuming the question is about those who are hesitant towards the SARSCoV-2 vaccines, since there are many experts who are very pro-vax but have serious questions regarding these vaccines. Among these experts, some recommend vulnerable people to get the vaccine, but that young and healthy people should not. Some also claim that these vaccines should not be administered during a pandemic because of immune escape; e.g. Geert Vanden Bossche who quite accurately predicted what we are seeing now.

Being an antivaxxer is not about being hesitant but about continuing to be so even after the science is enough to dispel the supposed reasons of anxiety. This include people that should know better but instead purposefully hide the information that contradicts them and continue to promote baseless fears in complete abscense of scientific data to support those fears. The example you put is a very clear one, because the person pushing the supposed dangers do not have any evidence to base his warnings, has been wrong repeatedly in his predictions and has been found to manipulate the evidence to pretend otherwise.

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-critical-thinking-pseudoscience/doomsday-prophecy-dr-geert-vanden-bossche

This comes in the tails of one very recurrent problem with antivaxxers, they despise science because it proves them irrational and wrong, but deeply desire the respect and value that the scientific method gives to evidence, so they end up embracing pseudo-science, things that have a thin cover to make them appear scientific, but that in reality are nothing of the sort, just people trying to profit in some way or another from disinformation.

3 ( +21 / -18 )

Respect for all opinions and choices but also active engagement against misinformation like that about the number of deaths after vaccination:

if the primary population vaccinated is composed of those most at risk for this disease, e.g. people between 80 and 105 years old like those in the retirement homes in Norway that saw ‘a lot’ of deaths few months ago, it is obvious many will still die with or without vaccine because the vaccination is not an immortality potion.

Most other vaccines are given to children and young adults, hence the obvious lower mortality rates post-vaccination. I bet one of my family jewels that if we used the scientific method and gave candies to 1000 children 5-10yo and to 1000 elderly 85-90yo we would observe a much higher mortality among the elderly in the following weeks. Would that be due to the candies? Ich don’t think so.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Do you not know the survival percentage?

The survival rate does not outline the conditions of recovery / survival and the effects on your quality of life.

Somewhere last month on terrestrial TV there was a (very) small piece about exactly that. They interviewed a young woman who had recovered from COVID over a year ago.

She was in her 20s, look healthy as can be, nothing special about her. One year ago, she had "mild" COVID and "recovered". Everything well? Well, actually not completely, as she now still has two things which did not "recover" since then (one year ago): her sense of smell and her sense of taste.

The way she explained is: if she is presented with 2 snow-cones, one with maccha (green tea) and one with vanilla, to her the snow-cones "look" different but taste exactly the same (read: no taste whatsoever). Same with her sense of smell. The doctors can not tell her if and when she will regain these two senses or if she ever will...

They interviewed a doctor who tried to work on some smell/taste "therapy" but to be honest the details were very fuzzy to say the least.

I recall that last year, loss of smell and taste were reported quite early in the pandemic with some patients regaining them quite quickly, some for whom it took longer and some, well, who didn't back then and (obviously) some who haven't at this point (like the above woman).

The theory was that COVID as a sickness had a neurological component. In short, COVID is believed to mess with your brain: re-organize it in a way, or disconnect bits and parts of it or even..."change" it (whatever that one would mean...). Not sure where research about that currently stand, but once and for all: a bad case of flu, COVID is not and recovery figures may mask (pun intended) a less stellar reality for the survivors' daily quality of life.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

To the anti vaxxers, either get the vaccine or get covid. There's no other choice.

Exactly.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

The pro vaccination are afraid of the unvaccinated spreading the disease and the wary of vaccination are afraid of being pressured or forced to receive a potentially injurious or fatal injection. So whose rights prevail? Everyone's do. Let everyone make thier own personal decision without judging another. Then we can all get along.

2 ( +15 / -13 )

@YuriOtani You can spread & catch the virus whether you have had the vaccine or not !

2 ( +9 / -7 )

I haven't voted because I'm not sure what "respect" means in this situation. Do I respect their right to refuse the vaccine and to demand equal treatment to those vaccinated? Yes. Do I respect the validity of their opinion that the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease? No.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Every person, no matter which side of the vaccine issue they fall on, has thier own personal, most probably well thought out, reasons for their decision. Let's all respect each other.

But then again, how come you are completely fine with imposing your reasons with the support of science as long as you don't share the beliefs of the people making those decisions? double standards?

The vaccines are still years away from full approval!

One, this is irrelevant, as long as they have been proved to be much safer than the infection that is enough, and two, they are nowhere near to years from full approval, because the data from vaccinated people definitely prove they are much better than necessary for it.

Vaccinate the most at risk which are over 70s and people with secondary illnesses. Let the rest choose!

The best experts in the world already concluded this is terrible advice that ends up with lots of unnecessary deaths, choosing is still possible, what you are asking is to choose and be free from consequences, which is not valid.

I don't know a single person that got COVID.

I don't know a single person that is against mandatory vaccines, good to see this is a good enough argument for you.

BUT for most kids, young adults and healthy people the vaccines just don't do any differences in term of death rate,

Citation needed, protection still is gained by young and healthy people according to the experts, so where is your evidence to contradict them? Search for a moment the rates of complications and death for any population you want and then compare it with the rates of complications and death actually related with the vaccines (as in in excess of what is observed in non-vaccinated people) COVID is a much higher risk.

The media are doing the same thing the radio stations in Rwanda did

Ignore completely the media, listen to the experts that have the scientific data that prove antivaxxers are just completely irrational.

2 ( +11 / -9 )

Boy if this pestilence does one thing, it sure shows how so many people live in fear.

I think it’s more of a question of wanting to get back to normal for most. There are some going over the top.

That said, most of the hysterics I see come from conspiracy theorists. They do tend to have feverish imaginations. From faked moon landings to building 7 to ivermectin as a panacea.

I used to find them quite funny and even cute, but this time they are a real drag on us and the health care systems.

2 ( +10 / -8 )

I have run into two kinds of anti-vaxers. And I am excluding persons who may have a valid medical reason to not get vaccinated. The first group seem to believe false, partial or misinterpreted information. A common denominator seems to be that they obtain infornation from SNS. These people do not trust the vaccine and are feaful of what it may do to them. The other group seem to just enjoy defying authority and feel that vaccination (along with masks in many cases) are an imposition upon their individual rights.

It really doesn't take a genius to conclude that masks, distancing, and vaccinations are the correct way to beat this pandemic. And in fact the need to do so is imperative in light of newer strains that have been identified.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

Do you not know the survival percentage?

Tell us, what is the survival percentage with Long Covid?

2 ( +8 / -6 )

It’s curious how many posters here describe vaccine skeptics as “ignorant” and “uneducated.” Data from a couple weeks ago in the U.S. showed that the least vaccinated group by educational level is people with Ph.D.s. That upends the simplistic labeling we see from many people here.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

I’ve read a lot of posts here. I seems like no one wants to discuss this ideas. Calling people anti-vaxx is a straw man argument and it doesn’t help the conversation. So, why do it? The science isn’t settled. We need to talk and not point fingers. If the science was settled we wouldn’t need boosters for a vaccine that’s 95% effective.

I’m going to start the conversation by asking for clarification on spike proteins.

are they going to cause long term health problems? Will a booster increase that risk? Why are people calling this vaccine a “leaky” vaccine? Why are two shot required instead of one and how biologically does it get more effective after the second? If someone gets infected between shots, will variants be more likely to spread? Why would the man that created the first MRNA speak out against this vaccine and put his chances of winning a Noble in doubt?

I know my version of all of these questions but I want to here your answer. I want to have a high level decision. Please, provide actual data and not a news article. My response will be at the same level of information and I will only reply to the posts that answer all of my questions. Thanks.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Absolutely not.

Isolate them all on an Island.

1 ( +30 / -29 )

Yes simply because all people I met are fully conscious of their own risk and I respect freedom of the others

Main answer they said to me "When you got your vaccination, that's your body, your freedom and yes, you can contaminate someone else but you won be sick so respect my freedom or simply stay away if you dont feed conformtable with that "

Other said "I already got covid, soon got recovered without any kind of medicine, simply by myself, no need of experimental vaccine."

1 ( +16 / -15 )

Ignorance is bliss.

1 ( +9 / -8 )

No! They are the reason we are in this situation!

The mRNA vaccine is "nonsterilizing", which means it does not stop the transmission.

1 ( +13 / -12 )

I respect all people's right to choose. The problem is that the vaxxers who voted no on this poll are largely miniature authoritarians who want to dictate other people's lives because they're irrationally controlled by fear. Vaccines don't do anything but protect the individual, and these particular vaccines are doing a poor job at that. The lie that I need to get vaccinated to protect you is what's driving the wedge between the vaxers and anti-vaxers. I trust my immune system to protect me, you can trust the vaccine to protect you. In the end, we all die. I choose to live in liberty, not toxic collectivism.

1 ( +14 / -13 )

The vaccine associated deaths occur within a couple of days or a couple of weeks, I forget the percentages of each, but most are clearly due to the vaccine.

Not at all, the experts clearly contradict you since the rates are not different from non-vaccinated populations of the same demographics, expecting people to believe you that vaccines magically affect people that have not been vaccinated is not a realistic proposition, the experts have logic and reason on their side.

That is the problem, your bias makes you incapable of accepting that the VAERS data show deaths on the same levels between vaccinated and unvaccinated people, you are of course unable to prove otherwise and that is why you never provide proof of higher rates only on vaccinated people. The excuse is as always a conspiracy that makes it impossible to prove anything, and since you can't prove the conspiracy because of the conspiracy it ends up being a circular logic that would "prove" anything you want to believe.

There are more covid19 vaccine associated deaths within a few months than all other vaccines put together over 3 decades. Was this an extremely sharp rise in "coincidences"? Some will say there is now increased "vigilance", when it's clearly the opposite, there is an increase in covering things up.

So, show up data that proves there is less vigilance compared with other vaccines, I mean, the excuse that everything that would support your beliefs is always being "covered up" is not only repetitive, it is also impossible to believe.

1 ( +14 / -13 )

Anti-vaxxers are, in my opinion, selfish, self- centered, poorly educated, inconsiderate, ill-informed people, who if become seriously ill, expect treatment and sympathy, with no thought as to who else they have infected.

1 ( +9 / -8 )

Those who are avoiding or delaying taking covid vaccines are, in my opinion, highly educated, rational, well-informed people who are well aware of the dangers and relative risks of the viral infection and the vaccination.

But this is also a completely mistaken opinion demonstrated as such by science.

https://www.shadac.org/news/HPSVax-06.21

People that take irrational actions try to find justification to keep doing that, sometimes imagining the people they consider the best do the same, even when this is completely mistaken.

I do find it unfortunate that a segment of society is trying to force vaccination on those of us who neither want not need it, as it comes far more from paranoia than science.

But yet again, people that say this continously misrepresent the science and try very hard to hide the consensus that say the opposite of what they believe. For example when falsely saying the CDC says vaccines do not reduce transmission.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

You're not safe, nor are you protecting other, by being vaccinated. Downvote it all you like, the science isn't in your favor.

the science of a tour guide in Vegas or the science from the scientific community? I think on that one, fella, you are clearly losing it.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

So here we have an anti vaxxer calling for using ivermectin which is not approved for human use in the doses that have been shown effective at treating Covid. Same anti vaxxer calls it “extremely safe”. FDA on the other hand…

Even the levels of ivermectin for approved uses can interact with other medications, like blood-thinners. You can also overdose on ivermectin, which can cause nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, hypotension (low blood pressure), allergic reactions (itching and hives), dizziness, ataxia (problems with balance), seizures, coma and even death.

0 ( +13 / -13 )

Indeed, those who believe everything they are told are more likely to get the vaccine....

As are scientists, doctors, virulogists, and epidemiologists. You know, the people that study this stuff and know what they're talking about.

Of course, we all know that you can learn more by reading a few Fox "News" stories on the internet, putting to shame the education of above professionals.

0 ( +13 / -13 )

Only if their decisions are based on real health facts. They have had covid. They have serious health problems.

But mostly, I read silly conspiracy stuff and nonsense.

0 ( +13 / -13 )

When is all this supposed to start happening

It was supposed to happen immediately. When that didn't happen, 'Soon'. Recently it's become 'Wait for a year or so, you'll see'. At some point it will become 'hereditary'. The goalposts can always be moved further back.

If that doesn't work, keep claiming that the vaccines are 'unproven' or 'experimental', and in the next breath tout miracle drugs which are unproven and experimental. @Raw Beer is a master in this technique.

I think it's the needle thing that scares them. They're happy to swallow all kinds of weird stuff in their lives without worrying about where it came from, but the idea of injections crosses some sort of line. Maybe if we allowed them to inject themselves?

0 ( +8 / -8 )

Depends what you mean by "anti-vaxxer".

If we're talking about someone who has quietly decided that the vaccine is not for them, but is taking other sensible precautions then I don't have much of a problem with them. In most cases I think they are making a mistake, but that's their decision and it doesn't make them a bad person. We have to accept that a free society will never reach 100% consensus on anything.

However, when I read "anti-vaxxer" what I'm picturing is the fools who are spending their time trying to persuade other people to not get jabbed. They're largely doing this by spreading entirely unscientific nonsense, unfounded conspiracy theories, and outright lies. If you don't understand something - and they really don't - then STFU and stop trying to influence other people. Same goes for noisy anti-maskers. It's none of your business if other people choose to wear masks, nor is it any of your concern if private businesses choose to mandate masks on their premises. Stop your whining.

0 ( +13 / -13 )

@ShinkansenCaboose

I respect everyone's opinion no matter what it is even if it is the opposite of my own.

Well said.

0 ( +12 / -12 )

No! The anti-vaxxers think that their decision does not effect others, but it does. Anti-vaxxers have a higher risk of catching CORONA, thus endangering others and in turn creating a perfect environment for mutations, thus allowing a possibility of a variant that wold also infect the vaccinated. On the other hand, the vaccinated do not present a higher danger to anyone, vaccinated nor un-vaccinated. Therefore anti-vaxxers will find themselves segregated from the rest of society. Like it or not, it is happening and will only intensify. There are exceptions based on medical conditions, like allergies and other health reasons that someone is not advised to be vaccinated, my wife for example. And there is a need to find a solution in these cases. But those that are in perfect health and are refusing to be vaccinated based on some ridiculous conspiracy theories will be segregated by society at large.

0 ( +9 / -9 )

Boy if this pestilence does one thing, it sure shows how so many people live in fear.

Possibly. Fear of you or your loved ones dying seems a reasonable fear to me. I'm willing to do a few basic things to prevent that.

I think that this 'pestilence' has shown how so many people these days lack any stoicism, fortitude and respect for the people around them. Even wearing a piece of facial cloth or being told that they can't go to a party for a while sends them 'hysterical', 'hyperventilating' or whatever the current deliberately antagonistic phrase is.

And then there's the science. People used to be proud of it when it was eradicating diseases that killed millions or putting men on the moon. Not to mention the enormous effort that the world's scientists have made in record time to bring us medicines that we need to defeat Covid (Nobody has thanked them yet).

Now it seems that anyone in possession of arcane knowledge that they can't themselves grasp on a youtube video is an 'elite', or 'big pharma / tech / deep state' etc.

People seem to be eager to become deliberately stupider (not sure if stupider is a word)

0 ( +5 / -5 )

You have to respect the fact that not everyone will react to the vaccine in the same way. Different people have different immune systems, blood types and reactions. Therefore, if possible get vaccinated but accept that other people may not wish to. What happened to empathy and tolerance of different views.

0 ( +7 / -7 )

Lovecrafting: The science was from a study at Oxford.

Yes, I've guided tours because it was lucrative, a good way to use my language skills, and a lot of fun during the summer season.

When school is in session, I'm a certified science teacher. I get to hear both sides of the story from credible sources, which is why I respect both opinions. Sorry if I don't consider your mass condemnation of those who choose not to be vaccinated a credible source.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

The science doesn’t fit your narrative, so you find reasons to filter it out, eh, virusrex? Yes, the study is a preprint, but that’s science today. Most is put online as preprints before reaching full publication. That alone is not grounds to dismiss the findings.

The study is by professional researchers at Carnegie Mellon and Pittsburg, and they did weight the findings, dot their i’s and cross their t’s. Inventing an explanation that anti-vaxxers lie on research surveys without a shred of evidence is downright unscientific on your part. “It’s not an impossible thing to assume” is anti-scientific posturing on your part.

This study also echoes other pre-COVID research finding high vaccine hesitancy among certain high-education and high-income demographics. “Vaccines cause autism” did not originate or initially gain traction among minorities or the uneducated. It was a lot of upper middle-class people circulating those claims.

At this moment, the best evidence we have indicates that in January of this year, those with less than a high school education and those with Ph.D.s were among the most vaccine hesitant. By May, other groups had softened toward the COVID shots. Ph.D.s hadn’t, and they are now the least likely demographic to choose to get the shots. Until you can offer legitimate evidence showing a flaw in their data, you’re merely doing exactly what you accuse anti-vaxxers of doing.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

The science doesn’t fit your narrative, so you find reasons to filter it out, eh, virusrex?

No, I am telling you your source do not have many of the necessary controls done in most studies that depend on online surveys in order to validate the results, which make it very difficult to defend in the discussion, since the authors did not make a good job on that section of the article it means it is not as good a source as you think it is. And no, preprints are not "science today", preprints are just PDFs, nobody has checked them, so they are of completely different qualities and many are just false information that easily gets eliminated during peer review, that would identify such obvious problems as the ones already expressed.

Having terribly bad evidence as your "best evidence" is not something you can actually brag about, specially if it makes absolutely no effort to justify getting different results from contradicting research (as the pulse house survey already presented).

Saying that "upper middle-class" people believed the scam about vaccines causing autism (that has been completely eliminated as a possibility by now) does nothing to say the people with most education did the same (and specially is not even an argument to say the discredited explanation was true).

Again, the study could be right, but the complete lack of controls and the deficient discussion made to justify contradicting results makes it not a good source, unless you can provide proof the authors controlled for veracity/accuracy of the replies this well known bias can be assumed to be present, even if you personally don't like it.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

The science was from a study at Oxford.

So one study defines what science is about ?

I don't put much faith in anything coming from Oxford these days, but it certainly has more validity than all the above childish insults directed at the vaccine hesitant.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

No, unless it is for proven medical reasons, like severe allergies. As it is, people who do not get vaccinated are the cause of mutations, spread, and the subsequent deaths. I'm so tired of seeing the videos and tweets from people on their deathbeds saying, "It's real! Please, everyone, get vaccinated!" and then the survived wife or child or husband or mother/father saying, "ooooohhh (sob sob), if only we had gotten the vaccination! We were so stupid!"

Proof of vaccination should be mandatory for entrance to every single establishment available to the public, as well as private industry. You should not be allowed to ride a train (maybe a "non-vaxxed car" only), enter a supermarket, or go to work if not vaccinated, let alone fly anywhere. And those who refuse should also have to get tested regularly and wear masks at all times when outside the home. Punishment for failure should be arrest, where they are vaccinated at the police station or prison. I'm tired of these morons being coddled while the world suffers for their stupidity. If they are so eager to proclaim their right to kill themselves and that their rights are not up to others, let them jump off a bridge.

-1 ( +20 / -21 )

Many of them do already, and Japan may soon follow! As Wobot posted today on another thread:

At this point? already too late, maybe last year, when the evidence was still conflicting and there was a sliver of a possibility of these drugs being useful, but by now the evidence is mounting and HCQ is already known to offer no benefits and ivermectin is going the same way. There will always be people that read scientific news with a serious delay in time, but for most of the professionals (and specially the experts advising the national government) the lack of effects on those drugs are terribly old news.

As more and more people are realizing that the vaccinations are clearly not as they were advertised

More like more and more the antivaxxers are becoming desperate and trying to misrepresent the vaccines as if they were promised as some kind of eternal and perfect solution that would solve instantly all and every problem from the pandemic, anybody that actually follow the news knows this was never the case.

-1 ( +14 / -15 )

I would respect them a lot more if they stood by their decision and if later to get infected with covid stay home regardless of outcome and not burden the health system.

-1 ( +11 / -12 )

Proof of vaccination should be mandatory for entrance to every single establishment available to the public, as well as private industry. You should not be allowed to ride a train (maybe a "non-vaxxed car" only), enter a supermarket, or go to work if not vaccinated, let alone fly anywhere. And those who refuse should also have to get tested regularly and wear masks at all times when outside the home. Punishment for failure should be arrest, where they are vaccinated at the police station or prison.

I see. These are your "support diversity, let's be inclusive" ideas.

-1 ( +11 / -12 )

Every person, no matter which side of the vaccine issue they fall on, has thier own personal, most probably well thought out, reasons for their decision. Let's all respect each other.

-1 ( +13 / -14 )

I do. No one should tell you what to take or put in your body

Not even doctors? So what do you do when you get sick?

-1 ( +14 / -15 )

The vaccines are still years away from full approval!

They are authorised for Emergency use only! EUA

If the makers were so confident with their vaccines why don't they remove the indemnity form prosecution clause forced upon any country that wants the vaccine?

If people are wary of the vaccine then that is their right.

Based on the fact that against the delta strain pfizer has only about 40% efficacy, by vaccinating more people the chance of Vaccine resistant strains developing is increased!

Vaccinate the most at risk which are over 70s and people with secondary illnesses. Let the rest choose!

Lumping all cohorts into pro or anti is stupid! But then there seem to be a lot of hysterical and stupid comments on this thread.

-1 ( +13 / -14 )

@dan, it is easier to get and spread the virus by the not vaccinated. My friend is going to live, if he was not vaccinated would probably have died. I will put my fate in the hands of science any-day before any politician.

-1 ( +9 / -10 )

In theory I could respect someone who doesnt want to get vaccinated, there are definitely rational arguments as to why not to. But in practice the argument of all anti-vaxxers I have talked to so far are based on misinformation and misunderstanding. Typically they say a healthy immune system and vitamin d is sufficient but total seem to not realise that without the existence of vaccines, modern life as we know it simply would not exist.

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

Boy if this pestilence does one thing, it sure shows how so many people live in fear.

-1 ( +10 / -11 )

I'm a little afraid of vaccine, but I'd still get it, because I believe the chances of it being harmful is much less than the chance of me getting the virus and suffer for weeks.

People who refuse, you're being misinformed by people who are afraid themselves, can't think logically, and go around convincing people of their stance to make themselves feel "right". Do yourself a favor, would you rather listen to "I read it on facebook" people or trained scientists who are scrutinized for everything they do and every word they utter ?

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

Also it is pretty clear by now that the vaccine is not the panacea we were sold.

What do you mean? When you get the vaccine you are no longer in danger or a danger to others.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Knowing the history and processes to we have an effective vaccine it's too early to answer this question?

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

They are a putrid cancer to society.

It is the same people that scream to get border closed to avoid foreigners to come in and the one screaming at the same time to keep everything open in the name of "freedom". Parasites as such will always be part of the picture, but this time, they are endangering society with their selfishness and their beyond-the-limit stupidity.

-1 ( +7 / -8 )

Those who are avoiding or delaying taking covid vaccines are, in my opinion, highly educated, rational, well-informed people who are well aware of the dangers and relative risks of the viral infection and the vaccination.

What risks from the vaccination are you talking about? The risks of getting sick from COVID are very clear. If you live in the USA it is 8-10%, Japan lower around 1% chance. Deaths after a COVID vaccination is 0.0019% and even then this does not mean the death was related to COVID. So I ask, how intelligent do you think anti-vaxxers are when faced with facts.

https://the-japan-news.com/news/article/0006521366

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

In awful news for the anti vaxxers, the Pfizer vaccine will be the first to be fully approved in the US tomorrow. They will no longer be able to use the already incorrect term ‘experimental’.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Lovecrafting: The science was from a study at Oxford.

Except that it was an invalid misrepresentation of the actual conclusions of the study. Which clearly explains why it is not shared by the actual experts.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

The science was from a study at Oxford.

So one study defines what science is about ? maybe you should go back to school to study further more then.

To figure out whether something works in a direction or another, you don't refer to ONE study, you refer to multiple studies on the subject, and you can determine based on the general results trend of these study to come up with the safest conclusion. These are the basics of research pal. If out of 20 studies with different sample range 90% of determines that that the vaccine protects against severe form and reduce mortality then it is something very likely true.

Problem with antivaxxers bozo is that you'll pick up one random, just one study, that'll tell you what you want to hear and comfort you in your biased and dangerous opinions.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

The anti-vaxxers that I know, are the same people who were the attention seekers in school. Seems like they never grew up. So, no...I don't respect their stance. They are hysterical attention seekers. And, by not getting vaccinated they are also unnecessarily risking their own health. Their non vaccinated bodies will also provide the virus with a place to mutate unchecked, and possibly into forms more resistant to vaccine. Therefore, they are threatening the health of everybody else too. Basically, they are selfish and ignorant people.

-2 ( +17 / -19 )

Yes insofar as I respect licensed drivers, commercial drivers, commercial machinery operators, medical field workers, and convicted criminals. The first four listed have some grasp of the danger they present to society should they forget their responsibility while the last listed has some grasp of the repercussions of should they present a danger to society. As a society, it is our job to incentivize the behavior we want to see to reduce dangers.

So while I respect anti-vaxer's and their decisions, I have zero qualms in excluding them from access to insurance claims, public housing, public education, and private discrimination in terms of employment opportunity. I will draw the line in providing services and products as I think each business, with relatively simple accommodations, can serve any potential customer.

-2 ( +12 / -14 )

Please provide a few names of the "experts", examples of the "high frequency", and proof of "the coverup and censoring". You seem to be privy to secret information....feel free to share.

Raw Beer

Many experts are very concerned with the high frequency of adverse reactions and death observed with these vaccines and with the coverup and censoring of the data.

-2 ( +11 / -13 )

virusex....

This comes in the tails of one very recurrent problem with antivaxxers, they despise science because it proves them irrational and wrong, but deeply desire the respect and value that the scientific method gives to evidence, so they end up embracing pseudo-science, things that have a thin cover to make them appear scientific, but that in reality are nothing of the sort, just people trying to profit in some way or another from disinformation.

This is perfect! Well put.

-2 ( +9 / -11 )

Vaccine related deaths world wide are possibly a handful,

OpenVAERS (US population) reports 12,366 post-covid deaths. The total death count due to all vaccines is 21,224.

-2 ( +10 / -12 )

So far, just about every denier anitvax person I know eventually got COVID

-2 ( +14 / -16 )

@YuriOtari, your featful thoughts are coming from your own projection and not from scientific studies.

For senior and people with low immunity, the vaccines shown to be effective to help them from severe sick and death if infected BUT for most kids, young adults and healthy people the vaccines just don't do any differences in term of death rate, and in other hands these people will get the unknown side-effects from the experiential vaccines...!!!

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

I had COVID-19 and quickly recovered. My only symptoms were a temporary loss of smell and taste, as was everyone else in my family. I know many others that had that and maybe some other flu symptoms. I know a few others that had more serious symptoms, including two who died, but who also has a host of comorbidities (diabetes, obesity, and heart disease being at the top of the list).

There was a big push in our community for vaccination, and now, the people I know that are turning up positive are fully vaccinated, with no difference in symptoms than those of us the weren't vaccinated. They did all suffer flu-like side affects when they got vaxed, so I guess they got double the suffering, who knows.

I have no intention of being vaccinated, since the CDC admits that vaccination doesn't hinder transmission and because I already have antibodies that protect me (tested positive for COVID-19 antibodies and had people jokingly offer to pay me for my blood). They say they may wear off in a year, so I'll get tested again then. In many places, COVID-19 had transitioned from pandemic to endemic, which means that it is going to stay with us, have its seasons like other viral illnesses, and just be a part of society. I'll likely have it again, just like I've had the flu throughout my life, and I'll end up with a fresh batch of antibodies.

Oh, and to those who are saying that it's the unvaccinated that are causing variants, you have no idea what you're talking about. All viruses produce variants regardless. Those of us who took university biology know that the big fear has always been superviruses and superbacterial agents resistant to vaccines and innoculation because of vaccines and innoculations. Vaccinated or not, COVID-19 is still going to vary.

So, finally, in answer to the questions, yes, I respect everyone's choice in the matter and do not fear this illnesses. I do find it unfortunate that a segment of society is trying to force vaccination on those of us who neither want not need it, as it comes far more from paranoia than science.

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

I don't put much faith in anything coming from Oxford these days, but it certainly has more validity than all the above childish insults directed at the vaccine hesitant.

Except when the study is being misrepresented as concluding something that is completely false, a big problem with antiscientific antivaxxer groups is that they want the validity scientific results grants, but without putting the effort into actually understanding the scientific information.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

It is not a matter of respect, it is a matter of whether the science backs up their claims. I think the science clearly shows vaccines are necessary in this public health crisis. I personally do not have a problem with mandatory vaccines, I was vaccinated as a child with no choice before entering school, so I am not asking someone to do something I would not do myself. If you choose to be anti-vax, then at least please keep your opinion to yourself and do not try to brainwash others.

-3 ( +14 / -17 )

Yes, I do, I believe everyone has the right to govern what they put into their bodies, NO EXCEPTIONS. A quick look at history will prove me correct but then again the sheep really don't care about history just their little feelings. Please don't bother with a pathetic reply. It's the same 10 guys on here all holding hands and giving the same boring responses, it gets old

-3 ( +12 / -15 )

I'm a bit unclear about what the word "respect" in the question is intended to mean.

The anti-vax stance is stupid so I have zero respect for it in terms of its substance if thats what I am being asked.

If it is asking me if I respect their right to take a stupid stance or something like that then the question itself is so inane that I'd rather not answer.

-3 ( +9 / -12 )

ADK99 you put it perfectly.

-3 ( +7 / -10 )

"KevinAug. 17  02:01 pm JST

So far, just about every denier anitvax person I know eventually got COVID"

Stupid commment!

They then recovered and went on to live a happy and healthy live with better immunity than from receiving a vaccine!

-3 ( +10 / -13 )

You're not safe, nor are you protecting other, by being vaccinated. Downvote it all you like, the science isn't in your favor.

The science is, your bad misrepresentation of it is the one that does not, but since it is wrong that means it is irrelevant.

If a vaccine decreases the people with symptoms that means it is helping you keep safer, it also means that it is helping reducing transmission. Your problem is misunderstanding (or pretending to) that vaccinated people become symptomatic the same as unvaccinated people, or that they remain symptomatic the same amount of time, both of things are false.

If one out of every 100 exposed vaccinated people becomes symptomatic for a day, while 50 unvaccinated people become symptomatic for a week, symptomatic people from both groups could reach the same viral loads but it would be terribly obvious vaccination makes transmission much lower.

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

@mikeylikesit: More to do with the fact the those with a PH.d have better things to than faff around with online or random surveys. Lets debunk your nonsensical comment right now.

Were you asked for YOUR occupation or educational qualifications when vaccinated? I think not.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

Depends why they dont want the vaccine. If they have already had Covid then still not clear to me why they should be forced to vax.

Also it is pretty clear by now that the vaccine is not the panacea we were sold.

Covid is here to stay and so many of the "controls" we have learned to live with are also here to stay

-4 ( +29 / -33 )

I do. No one should tell you what to take or put in your body

So far, just about every denier anitvax person I know eventually got COVID

I don't know a single person that got COVID.

-4 ( +17 / -21 )

Vaccinated or non vaccinated the risk of spreading the virus is the same

It isn't, and it isn't hard to find evidence of this.

Please educate yourself before making knee jerk reactions.

You need to wake up and educate yourself first.

-4 ( +9 / -13 )

Not sure what was wrong with my post but people that refuse vaccination are dangerous to be around. All of the hospitals around me are full of covid patients. Most of the ICU beds are taken. God help someone that has a heart attack, etc. They are flying patients to other states to receive treatment. A friend of mine came down with covid and was vaccinated. He is out of hospital but has trouble breathing. We are back to were we were a year ago, masks and all. This is because people refuse vaccination. I have zero respect for them.

-4 ( +11 / -15 )

Not even doctors?

Unless they tried to keep it a secret from me.

So what do you do when you get sick?

I stock up on Advil.

-4 ( +9 / -13 )

No, because I am sensible.

-4 ( +6 / -10 )

Fear of you or your loved ones dying seems a reasonable fear to me. I'm willing to do a few basic things to prevent that.

Do you not know the survival percentage?

-4 ( +5 / -9 )

Those who are avoiding or delaying taking covid vaccines are, in my opinion, highly educated, rational, well-informed people who are well aware of the dangers and relative risks of the viral infection and the vaccination.

-4 ( +6 / -10 )

This from the Financial Times, August 19 article, "Are vaccines becoming less effective at preventing Covid infection?"

"An Oxford university study published on Thursday found that the efficacy of the Pfizer vaccine against symptomatic infection almost halved after four months, and that vaccinated people infected with the more infectious Delta variant had as high viral loads as the unvaccinated."

You're not safe, nor are you protecting other, by being vaccinated. Downvote it all you like, the science isn't in your favor.

-4 ( +5 / -9 )

Data from a couple weeks ago in the U.S. showed that the least vaccinated group by educational level is people with Ph.D.s.

Being completely fair, a PDF in a preprint server shows that people answering an online survey were more likely to answer to have PhDs and not be vaccinated. Without proper controls this could simply indicate that people with antivaxxer views like to represent themselves as PhDs even if this is not true.

Some people on the site have tried to use this kind of false appeal to authority to supposedly give more weight to their comments, so it is not such a impossible thing to assume.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

But @Raw Beer - What are these other safe and effective options you refer to? If they really existed I'm sure the Governments of the world would be very happy and save themselves an AWFUL lot of money.

Many of them do already, and Japan may soon follow! As Wobot posted today on another thread:

Well the head of Tokyo's medical association has called for a change of tactics like offering ivermectin so hopefully things will pick up

https://www.tokyo-np.co.jp/article/123988

As more and more people are realizing that the vaccinations are clearly not as they were advertised, I expect more medical associations will finally accept the extremely safe and very effective repurposed drugs (ivermectin, HCQ,...). It will be difficult for some officials due to massive pressure and incentives from big pharma.

-5 ( +18 / -23 )

Second, everybody will die post-vaccine.

The vaccine associated deaths occur within a couple of days or a couple of weeks, I forget the percentages of each, but most are clearly due to the vaccine.

Third, VAERS doesn’t determine the vaccine as being the cause of death.

They never do, no matter how obvious it is. Many doctors have complained that when they submitted a reports to VAERS of deaths or other adverse reactions, the reports were either not accepted or they summarily determined they were not caused by the vaccine without any investigation.

There are more covid19 vaccine associated deaths within a few months than all other vaccines put together over 3 decades. Was this an extremely sharp rise in "coincidences"? Some will say there is now increased "vigilance", when it's clearly the opposite, there is an increase in covering things up.

-5 ( +11 / -16 )

Is there some reason for JT using the bizarre spelling "vaxxer" with a very unnatural double-X?

It is difficult enough to have debates on this subject, and this spelling will only cause the anti-vaccine side to become more defensive as they see this kind of mockery directed at them.

-6 ( +1 / -7 )

Many experts are very concerned with the high frequency of adverse reactions and death observed with these vaccines and with the coverup and censoring of the data. There is also a concern over potential longterm effects. for which very little is known about these vaccines.

I respect those who inform themselves and carefully weigh the pros and cons for themselves. But I have an extremely low opinion of those who reject all the cons of these vaccines, greatly exaggerate the pros, try to push them on everyone (including healthy kids), while completely rejecting all other safe and effective options. Some of these people even claimed that the vaccines were perfectly fine, safe and effective, before the trials had started.

-12 ( +25 / -37 )

So many smart comments here!

-16 ( +17 / -33 )

You very often find anti-vaxxers follow a lot of other conspiracy theories.

Indeed, those who believe everything they are told are more likely to get the vaccine....

-17 ( +25 / -42 )

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