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Would you support airlines refusing to admit passengers unless they have proof of COVID-19 vaccination or immunity, as a condition for international travel?

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I'm basically ok with it, preferably as a temporary measure. But some strategic games or "Prisoners' dilemma" would be soon played out among airline companies unless they agree and get united on some coordinated action.

A quick logical thinking suggests, why not vaccinating all airline staff members? So long as they stay healthy and anti-viral at work, their flight services wouldn't have to take responsibility for all passengers' health. The same is true for other public transportation services.

2 ( +8 / -6 )

How many people that voted yes actually travel overseas or intend to ?

5 ( +16 / -11 )

Yet further restriction and control over the individuals freedom. If this is put in place as a “temporary emergency” measure it will never be removed and what else will be added?

-6 ( +14 / -20 )

I don't think it is down to the airlines to do this. It should be governments that decide on their immigration restrictions. Perhaps travel insurance companies may also decide not to cover any Covid-19 treatment for non-vaccinated travellers.

At present, it is the governments deciding if travellers must have a negative Covid-19 test result 72 hours before travel (or whatever time limit they set), quarantine requirements, visas, etc.. The airlines simply check the requirements they can check are being met when checking-in. I do not see a reason for this to change.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

No. Some people cannot have the vaccine for medical reasons, and it is difficult to prove whether you have had the vaccine. The best thing would be to require all passengers to follow Covid rules when travelling.

9 ( +18 / -9 )

Of course not. If they want that proof or testing from me they have to pay for it and managing themselves getting fast testing equipment , necessary staff, laboratories and results. As a customer I just want the ticket and then fly to the destination, not going to a hospital. That’s like going to the butcher’s for some spare ribs and beef steaks, but beforehand demanded to draw a picture of healthy vegetables otherwise you aren’t sold the meat. lol

4 ( +12 / -8 )

I wish they had more categories than just "Yes" and "No".

Like, "Absolutely, positively" or "No way, never, or even the somewhat cynical and a tad anti-social, "What a dumb question."

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

No - And forcing the issue will just create a black market in the necessary paperwork anyway. It will be way too hard to bring in a document that is recognised worldwide and there are/will be too many vaccines out there, that efficacy may prove different as time goes on. Luddite is correct, Covid rules will have to be followed for a while yet - In any case look how far we have come with speed and accuracy of testing in just over a year. Hopefully we continue on that upward curve and pre departure and/or on arrival becomes a lot easier and cheaper.

5 ( +10 / -5 )

A new forgery ring will be COVID vaccination documents.

4 ( +8 / -4 )

It is a strange question and shows how people are often poorly informed.

Vaccination for several diseases was once required by the laws of many countries and is still required in some today.

Some require proof before entering some require you either show proof of be vaccinated on arrival depending on the disease.

I am not talking about Covid-19 but other contagious diseases.

Certificate of vaccination was required for small pox up until it was declared eradicated.

Today many countries still require certificate of vaccination for Polio, Yellow fever and Meningococcal meningitis, in order to leave or enter those countries.

So it is not unprecedented to have such a requirement.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

A new forgery ring will be COVID vaccination documents.

Apparently it has already started.

However, if you take the pool of people who don't want the vaccine, those who get forgeries would have travelled anyway had there been no restrictions.

The more time abiding majority will either get the vaccine or not travel.

The rapid spread of COVID-19 has been facilitated by air travel so it is an important way we can stem the spread.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Of course not. If they want that proof or testing from me they have to pay for it and managing themselves getting fast testing equipment , necessary staff, laboratories and results. As a customer I just want the ticket and then fly to the destination, not going to a hospital.

If you want to get on their plane, you follow their rules. If not, go by boat and car.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

Yes no jab no travel simple. It’s just like all the other vaccinations that you have to have when travelling to certain parts of the world .

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

@Do the hustle

Once the vaccine becomes widely available it will be cheaper to just get it than pay for a good forgery not to mention if certificates of vaccination are government issue then anyone with a forgery also will risk being criminally charged.

Seems like a lot just to avoid a silly little fee if any and a tiny jab in the arm.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Negative PCR test should remain an option as well. It would allow those who can’t take the vaccine for medical reasons to travel as well.

https://www.washington.edu/news/2020/12/02/covid-19-vaccines-may-not-prevent-spread-of-virus-so-mask-wearing-other-protections-still-critical/

6 ( +6 / -0 )

@Tokyo-Engr

There are very few medical reasons not to get vaccinated, the antivaxxers have latched on to the very few allergic reactions that have occurred but even that is not a reason.

My wife regularly gets her influenza vaccination despite allergic reactions ( there is a reason for having to get it to long to explain) so she gets her vaccine in a different place than I do.

She gets it in a hospital where they keep her for a bit to be observed until they think it is safe for her to leave, in 15 years I have been with her only once did she need treatment for a slightly more severe reaction and even that was fairly mild.

If we look a food allergies we soon realise that they are a far greater risk, vaccines are given medical facility where help if needed is quickly available.

I didn't know I was allergic to taro root until the first time I had it in a restaurant here in Japan no EpiPen because I had never had any allergic reactions before, it was not a great experience being rush to a hospital. At least with the vaccine you are right there in a hospital or clinic.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Internet criminals are already offering fake test certificates for testing, which look like the real thing. Provide quick testing at the airport. Vaccination must never be compulsory.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

@zichi

Some vaccines have been compulsory for decades depending on where you are going or coming from.

Small pox vaccine was universally compulsory for decades and is now eradicated because of that.

Polio, Yellow fever, etc...are still compulsory depending on the country ones is going to or coming from.

So it is not something new or out of the ordinary.

The fact that so few people know the above is surprising.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

Antiquesaving

compulsory vaccinations for certain sicknesses were required by the countries, not by the airlines. No one never asked me to prove I had them.

The number of countries were limited.

In most circumstances, yellow fever is the only vaccine required by certain countries. 

"Various vaccines are not legally required for travellers, but highly recommended by the World Health Organization. For example, for areas with risk of meningococcal meningitis infection in countries in African meningitis belt, vaccinations prior to entry are not required by these countries, but nevertheless highly recommended by the WHO."

"As of July 2019, vaccines for Ebola and malaria were still in development and not yet recommended for travellers. Instead, the WHO recommends various other means of prevention, including several forms of chemoprophylaxis, in areas where there is a significant risk of becoming infected with malaria"

Compulsory vaccination no. testing yes.

In my own case, my doctor recommended I don't get vaccinated because my immune system is still weak from a cancer op. So what, I won't be able to travel?

1 ( +4 / -3 )

@zichi.

No idea how old you are but I remember clearly needing to show my vaccine booklet while traveling.

You conveniently ignored the fact that until 1981 you needed to show proof of small pox vaccination to travel that included plane boat, etc..

And the result is no more small pox.

Amazing how that keeps being ignored and conveniently forgotten by those opposed to mandatory vaccination or vaccination in general.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Antiquesaving

Amazing how that keeps being ignored and conveniently forgotten by those opposed to mandatory vaccination or vaccination in general.

I don't need your bullying. You are free to support vaccinations and I'm free to be able to oppose compulsory Covid-19 vaccinations. That is a separate problem.

The legal vaccination like Yellow Fever are limited to few countries and not required for all travel.

The compulsory Covid-19 vaccinations would will be impossible. How long will it take to vaccinate the world? The vaccinations are two parts, requiring a second dose after 14 days.

It maybe that after a certain period people will also need a booster injection.

If someone needs emergency travel?

Testing yes, vaccinations no.

You didn't answer my point about my doctor recommending I don't get vaccinated.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

I will do anything our corporate elite tells me to do. They are far more smarter and far more informed. They are the experts. I will comply. I will comply. I will get the vaccine 20 times if they tell me to. I am completely incapable of thinking for myself. I will comply.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

There isn't even enough available vaccines in the developed countries for those who are vulnerable, like the over 60's, people will serious health problems and the millions of front line workers.

A compulsory Covid-19 vaccination by the airlines is unworkable in real terms.

The vaccines should go first to those who need it the most.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

zichi

Yes, unfortunately you wont be able to travel as risking your life for a holiday is not worth it.

No, airlines wont be able to enforce vaccinations, but you will more then likely be denied entry to a country and sent back to your destination, as no country will risk a breakout and possible lockdown once the vaccination will be available and widespread to appease a minority.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Good luck with that. Not one single Japanese would be able to travel as of today!

3 ( +3 / -0 )

You didn't answer my point about my doctor recommending I don't get vaccinated.

Because it is irrelevant!

To the subject. But if you insist.

If your immune system is weak do to cancer treatment then the whole notion of traveling by air or any form during a pandemic is a moot point.

If your system is to weak for a vaccine then travel and the risk the actual virus poses would be far greater.

I have family members, 3 to be exact that are in various stages of cancer treatment or recent remission not one would risk traveling at this point.

I viewed your example as just am attempted at finding fault on compulsory vaccination before traveling.

But I wish you well and a full recovery from your cancer and hope you will not take the risk of travel until you are strong enough to be vaccinated or the virus bis nearly fully gone, because again if your system cannot handle a vaccine it will definitely not survive the virus.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

No, airlines wont be able to enforce vaccinations, but you will more then likely be denied entry to a country 

Actually at present airline will refuse boarding to countries that already have mandatory vaccination for certain disease by those going there if they cannot produce proof of vaccination.

And when going to these countries the airlines are very active in checking because it is the airline that will be held responsible and will have to pickup the cost of flying the refused person out of that country.

As far as I know anyone going to Haji in Saudi Arabia must have meningococcal meningitis vaccination issued no more than 3 years and no less than 10 days before arrival in Saudi Arabia.

Airlines won't even let you board without this, there are other examples but seeing the amount of travelers going on Haji each year this seemed the best example.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

It is a strange question and shows how people are often poorly informed.

It is not a strange question, but a necessary and valid one.

There is no evidence to show that being vaccinated against Covid will stop you catching the virus and, more importantly, passing it on. The vaccine protects you, stops you getting so ill you need hospital treatment and prevents death, but it does not protect you from catching the virus and transmitting it. This is why you must continue with Covid rules after being vaccinated, it does not mean the end of Covid for the foreseeable future.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Antiquesaving

If your immune system is weak do to cancer treatment then the whole notion of traveling by air or any form during a pandemic is a moot point.

No I am fit enough to travel if needed. With all the travel restrictions not much is happening. Of course I have done my best to avoid the Covid-19 which last year would probably have killed me.

Question, how do you think an airline Covid-19 vaccination requirement could even work when there are not even enough vaccines being produced to even vaccinate all the vulnerable and the first line workers. A country like Japan has even approved a vaccine nor started a program.

How would the plan work with travellers coming from the poorer countries unable to get enough vaccine.

I think the whole idea of compulsory vaccinations for Covid-19 is a mute point until there are enough vaccines and vaccinations for the needy first. More than 4 billion people will need the vaccination.

The question of the post is for international airlines but what about ships and cruises?

0 ( +2 / -2 )

At the end of the day each to their own , however consideration for others especially another’s persons health doesn’t really seem to matter .

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

See article on JAL. Another nail in the coffin of the airline industry.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Alex 

travel is also for business not just holidays and emergencies like family death.

The vaccination program won't prevent the spread of the virus and will mean people feel they no longer need a test. Testing is the better option for travellers. People can also get the vaccination if available to them. All virus protocols need to remain in place like masks, washing hands, safe distance.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

The vaccination program won't prevent the spread of the virus 

False incredibly false.

If that was true then Small pox would have never been irradiated, polio would still be present in countries with vaccination programs that cover the entire population, and the list goes on.

It is a wonder how people keep saying thing like this that has been proven false over and over again and by past historical evidence and scientific proof.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

@Antiquesaving

There are very few medical reasons not to get vaccinated, the antivaxxers have latched on to the very few allergic reactions that have occurred but even that is not a reason.

I am absolutely not and never have been an anti vaxer (I have all my shots as do my kids). However, if I read the guidance provided by Pfizer for their own never before tried en masse vaccine I should certainly not take the vaccine. I do not know what else to say. If I take the vaccine and there is a serious adverse reaction they will say "Why did you not read the warning?"

The vaccination program won't prevent the spread of the virus 

False incredibly false.

I fully agree with you about previous vaccines however the vaccine maker even says this will not necessarily prevent the spread of the virus. It seems to reduce the severity of the virus and there is good empirical data on that.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

"Coronavirus: few vaccines prevent infection – here’s why that’s not a problem"

"There is a subtle yet important difference between preventing disease and preventing infection. A vaccine that “just” prevents disease might not stop you from transmitting the disease to others – even if you feel fine. But a vaccine that provides sterilising immunity stops the virus in its tracks."

"In reality, it is actually extremely difficult to produce vaccines that stop virus infection altogether. Most vaccines that are in routine use today do not achieve this."

https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-few-vaccines-prevent-infection-heres-why-thats-not-a-problem-152204

Vaccines stop COVID-19 symptoms, but do they stop transmission?

https://www.fredhutch.org/en/news/center-news/2020/12/covid-19-vaccines-transmission.html

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Will the airlines be providing their own vaccination programs for their passengers. The logistics of a program is near impossible at the current stage. EU countries arguing with Big Pharma about their vaccine contracts. Blocking exports.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

As Luddite points out - there is no proof, NOR will be until the vaccines are well entrenched in a big bulk of the population that they prevent transmission. Isn't that the bigger issue here and the whole point? Does anybody think that we will have verifiable research anytime in the very short term?

Just to be clear. I will be having a vaccine as soon as it is offered to me, but I do not support compulsory vaccination in order to travel - Quicker, cheaper, more accurate testing at points of departure/entry is the first step to returning travel so some sense of normality.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

I should certainly not take the vaccine. I do not know what else to say. If I take the vaccine and there is a serious adverse reaction they will say "Why did you not read the warning?"

Then if possible serious adverse reactions are what stops you, then I recommend never eating any more foods you haven't already ready had! Far higher chance of allergic reaction and most likely not at a doctor's office or hospital.

I ate taro for the first time ever years ago here in Japan, went into anaphylactic shock, never had any food allergies before but then never had taro root or anything in that group of root edibles.

But that is not stopping me from trying new foods.

Also avoid any over the counter drug as you never know.

Had pneumonia it got bad the drug I received known to be the safest nearly killed me turns out I am in the 0.05% of people that are allergic to it.

Still I take prescriptions given to me when needed.

The risk of complications from covid-19 out way the risks of the vaccine, every day we learn about new long term and unknowns, latest signs of fertility problems for men that had covid-19 no one knows yet how many or how long the problem will last or if the damage is permanent.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Will the airlines be providing their own vaccination programs for their passengers.

Ok on that note will you pay for medical, loss of income, if you transmit covid-19 to airline staff or others because you refused to be vaccinated.

Oh and will you support their families if they died from covid-19 you or another vaccine refuser passed along?

Hey only fair if you or others decide to ignore facts and safety towards others then shouldn't you also take responsibility for such action and any damages.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Yes, with obvious exceptions for those who cannot take the vaccine or, for whatever reason, need to be repatriated.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Antiquesaving is right.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

Small price to pay to keep everyone safe. I don't see people complaining about having to show a valid passport!

4 ( +4 / -0 )

I see it like this.

If you are driving down the road and there is a warning message saying to reduce speed due to ice and you don't and cause an accident then by law you are responsible.

If you are heading down that same road same warning and you follow the recommendations but still end up in an accident due to road conditions then it was unavoidable and you will probably not be held responsible.

The same should apply here.

If you can get the vaccine but refuse to and or refuse to wear a mask then are later to be found positive for covid and it was spread to others then you should be held responsible and pay damages.

If you get the vaccine as recommended and follow mask and other guidelines but still get covid and spread it then you did your part and cannot be held responsible.

I think this should be the way to do it, that way those that chose not to get the vaccine or wear masks take responsibility for their actions.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

For those that think it is just them and therefore their choice to refuse to be vaccinated.

There are presently lawsuits going on in Canada, Germany, the USA and others.

Parents of children that were to young to be vaccinated or had immune system problems and could not be vaccinated suing antivaxxer parents and adults for spreading measles causing illness, permanent damage and even death to infants and the immune system problem children.

The antivaxxers in some cases that have already gone to court lost though they are appealing

In any event even if the antivaxxers finally win they will have lost just by the legal cost, lost time in court, etc...

So yes you can say no to the vaccine but just keep in mind that there may be consequences.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Unworkable across more than 200 countries.

Pre-pandemic there were 6 million people flying every day. That is 180 million people every month. Requiring a two dose vaccine would be 360 million doses every month.

1.8 billion people every year needing 3.6 billion does.

Since the pandemic air travel is down 60%. 2.4 million people every day. 72 million every month. Requiring a two dose vaccine would be 144 million doses every month.

Testing is better use of the limited resources. Require a negative test before leaving and again on arrival.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Try to get a Corona virus test at your local hospital in Japan-you cannot!

They are only on offer at dedicated clinics.

The cost at one clinic in Kandai is 38500 yen.

How easy will it to get vaccinations in Japan this year, in 2021 using the national insurance system?

I am betting that it will be slow and cumbersome.

So , no why penalize people that are not sick with a draconian rule?

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Unworkable across more than 200 countries.

Again that is a statement that is incorrect just based on history and facts.

It was done before regarding small pox and others.

International certification of vaccination worked then it can work now.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

@kurisupisu

Unfortunately for those that do not get vaccinated travel will not may but will be restricted outside Japan.

It is looking more and more likely that most countries will require vaccination to those wishing to enter.

This was the top thing to affect small pox vaccination and others.

As air travel became popular and countries required a valid certificate of vaccination to enter, more people got vaccinations.

The same will probably happen in this case.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

It is a moot point.

Already many countries are starting to require a negative test before you can go there.

Once vaccines are widely available they will change that to proof of vaccination and it will probably be the International Certificate of Vaccination /Carte jaune.

So those saying they will not get the vaccine then will need to remain in the country they are and never travel internationally.

So Japan cannot make citizens get the vaccine but if they want to go to the UK, EU, USA, etc... Then those places will require visitors to be vaccinated and vise versa so if by some strange chance you can return to your country of citizenship without being vaccinated you will be required to be vaccinated before being permitted to return to Japan as not being a citizen they can do that to you.

Many here are to young to remember but before 1980 the cart jaune was a must when traveling, it may just be on the verge of a comeback.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

My nephew is a doctor. Two weeks ago after his second shot in Florida, he developed a 104F fever and was sent to the hospital.

I react badly to the flu vaccine. All my relatives in the medical field suggest I skip the COVID vaccine.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

It was done before regarding small pox and others.

Small pox wasn't an international pandemic. It was endemic. It lasted for 3,000 years and took nearly 200 years to eradicate.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/speckled-monsters-and-graverobbers-how-did-past-pandemics-end-and-how-does-this-one-compare-20200415-p54k31.html

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

As a temporary measure, sure keep losing money if you want. As a permanent measure well, I guess I would never leave Japan again, no problem with that by the way, I've traveled enough.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Small pox wasn't an international pandemic. It was endemic. It lasted for 3,000 years and took nearly 200 years to eradicate

Your point was making compulsory vaccination would not work.

And no it did not take 200 year it took 36 years the number of years after the vaccine became available.

You just made the case for vaccination 3000 plus years of devastation ended in just 36 years.

More to the point many worried that air travel would spread small pox more but the contrary happened.

By having more people entering by few and better controlled border points and requiring up-to-date vaccination certificates more people got the vaccine than before air travel.

Thanks for making the point that vaccines did in 36 years something that people couldn't for over 3000 years, that is eradicate a deadly disease.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

I would suggest only PCR testing in advance. My understanding is that the vaccine protects the individual from getting seriously ill from the virus but doesn’t necessarily prevent the vaccinated person from spreading the disease to others.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

To Sandybeachheaven,

Why would your nephew have two flu shots? Or did you mean covid vaccination? A very small percentage of people do have a reaction to the vaccine. Just because you don't do well with the flu vaccination doesn't mean you will have the same result from the covid vaccination. That's like comparing apples to oranges, completely different. Personally I sometimes feel under the weather for about 24 hours after the flu shot, which is normal it means my immune system is working. But this year, nothing. And of course no flu anywhere because everyone is washing their hand's, wearing masks, and social distancing.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I think some people missread the question. We are not talking about countries requiring proof of vaccination but "airlines refusing to admit passengers unless they have proof of COVID-19 vaccination or immunity, as a condition for international travel" meaning regardless of countries situations and requirement. Thus should an airline be allowed to refuse boarding regardless of the country of departure and of arrival policy ?

If a person can not get immunized one way or another and both countries involved agree on the right of this person to access/leave the said countries, should an airline block this person from traveling just for not being able to get immunized even thought this person could agree to take all other prevention measures and sign a agreement of non liability for the company so that if this person were to be contaminated on board ones could not sue back the company. Moreover, if this person can provide proof than immunization is not possible.

I do not believe so.

And I dare to remember, as of now, kids are on the non-vaccination list for Moderna and Pfizer's vaccine as not enough data was collected yet.

https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/the-moderna-covid-19-mrna-1273-vaccine-what-you-need-to-know

https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/who-can-take-the-pfizer-biontech-covid-19--vaccine

@Reckless

Your understanding is right, they are waiting for further studies to determine it.

For information the first vaccine for smallpox date back to the end 1700'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowpox

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Yes, although it would mean no travel to and from Japan for this year, sine they have yet to even start vaccinating. The exception would be if someone has a clear-cut medical reason they canNOT be vaccinated (like if they find a consistent side-effect that is lethal). Since it would only be them at risk then I see no problem, but for international travel other countries would retain the right to bar said people from entry.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

definitely NOT

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Airlines will likely not have a choice - they will likely be required by international law to refuse passengers who are not vaccinated. This is already the case for many communicable diseases - e.g. TB, Yellow Fever, etc. - when coming or going from certain countries. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_Vaccination_or_Prophylaxis

Up until 2020, I used to do a lot of traveling for both work and leisure. If you're coming into Japan from certain African countries or are traveling to those places from Japan, you need to show a vaccination certificate to be allowed to board. That's not the airline's policy - that's international law.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I want a microchip inserted under the epidermis that carries all ID, vaccinations, and credit card info. I want it called project 666 lol

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Airlines set their rules if you don’t agree fly with another one . Simple.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Nop. Because some people with current sickness as cancer, blood alterations, history of anaphylaxis, etc need to be better evaluated in order to get the vaccine. Not everyone is fit enough to take it. It will be pure and simple discrimination. Airlines could continue to ask for PCR.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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