Do you think that a man giving up his seat on a bus or train to a woman, holding a door open for her or holding her chair as she sits down is outmoded?

It is outmoded. Very definitely.

Women are not delicate flowers who are incapable of opening doors, or enduring standing, or pulling in their own chairs.

The simple courtesy of doing these things for any person will never be outmoded but the patriarchal superiority inherent in the idea of performing these tasks specifically for women as a man should no longer be a thing.

I hold doors for anybody. I cede my seat to anybody I feel would benefit from it (essentially the priority seat list, but sometimes if I see two friends enter a train and there is only one space beside me I may give them my seat to share together if I am getting off soon.

Politeness is a natural instinct and can't be outmoded...unless is forbidden by law..

I was raised to show good manners to others, regardless of their gender, and I don't believe good manners are ever outmoded. From what I read above, most people feel the same way.

Holding a chair while a lady sits down is not something I do. Holding a door open for a lady is always appreciated and I always do that. I find too many Japanese men are just too selfish to think of doing something nice for someone else.

Such small politenesses I shall always do.

Not at all. Nor is it outdated for a woman to offer her seat to a man who is in need. What goes around comes around as they say. The Golden Rule and all that. Just be kind. It feels good, too, no matter the social status or gender. The other day, a middle-aged woman occupied the 4-seater compartments on a rural train. I asked to sit. She begrudgingly let me. THEN, she took off her hiking boots AND socks and began massaging her FEET! Amazing! No, manners are limited to one gender!

Practicing courtesy is good for all.

A few years ago when I was having chemotherapy, looking rather unwell but nevertheless trying to keep up some kind of normal life, i boarded a train at my station and found a young man reading and managing to occupy at least two seats. The elderly gentleman next to him noticed me and delivered a sharp elbow to his ribs. They were not traveling together--it was just a lesson in kindness. I was deeply grateful.

I have also scolded young people in the "silver seats" on trains and made them get up for handicapped people. I love being older and culturally entitled to be a bit bossy.

I was in Dubai; UAE several four years ago when I noticed a Japanese mom struggling with her baby son in her arms, her infant daughter standing next to her, and her older son accompanying her, while her husband stood by the door of the train, staring out the window. I said, in Japanese; " Oak'sama.....oi' de'....swate' nasai'.....she immediately came over with her kids and sat down....NO; this idea is NOT " Out Dated".....unless you are an ignorant idiot.

I would hold open a door for any man, woman, child or dog I would not hold the chair for any man, woman, child or dog. It makes no sense. I would give up my seat to the person who needs it most be it a man, woman, child or dog

The young people do not respect the signs on the buses and trains that remind them to let the elderly or pregnant sit there. It is all "Camus" which means, "If I just look out the window, maybe that person will just move on so I don't feel guilty." Is there any possible way to change this attitude? NO! Everyone else just "keeps his/her head in the sand" and so society changes itself.

Jaymann: ... you have equality or you have chivalry...

Equality does not mean men and women are the same. Not to be too indelicate but when men suffer from "monthly visits" that can be extremely debilitating to many women, then you can talk to us about equality.

When I was younger, once a month I would suffer from lower back pains that would sometimes cause me to vomit and once to even faint. And while I certainly would not blame any man for not realizing what a woman might be going through, the few times I was offered a seat while in that condition, I was beyond appreciative.

On the flip side, I've been offered a seat by well-meaning men, after a day of sitting at my work desk, and when i really just wanted to stand to stretch out a bit. On those occasions, I very politely explained why i preferred to stand and thanked the man so he would neither be embarrassed nor discouraged from future politeness.

A courtesy should be returned with courtesy regardless of where you stand on the issue, no pun intended.

Magnet - Even for a feminist I'd treat as if she were a real woman, if only to incite their irrational rage further.

I don't know a (female) feminist who isn't a real women so what exactly are you on about? Are only those women who agree with your political and social perspectives on life "real women" in your eyes? If that's what you think then perhaps their "rage" is not so irrational but rather is due to your hostile attitude and not the fact that they are feminists.

The reason it is outmoded is that its simply not appreciated, in fact some women are even insulted and offended by these gestures of courtesy and politeness, although I do find elderly women do appreciate them. How many times do you see the young woman on the train in the window seat with her bag and shopping next to her reluctant to give up her seat. How many times to do you see the young women push through heavy glass doors at a shopping mall and let them fly back in the the face of the person behind. Now wonder they dont appreciate gestures of courtesy and politeness.

you just can't have it both ways...you have equality or you have chivalry... you should not expect both!

Man/Woman is a false distinction in Japan. Now in Japan, there are only female women and male women.

fat women look fat, A Fat pregnant women looks fat, a pregnant women looks pregnant. So if your worried about a fat women slapping you down on the train, slap her back and sit back down. Because if she is offended, the chances are, she is fat not pregnant and is self-centred about being fat and has no right in attacking a person because of her problem about being fat.

So the theory is that a man should always give up his seat whenever a woman comes on the the train on the off chance she might be pregnant but not showing? Pardon me, but I think that's a bit absurd.

You're right, it IS absurd as a theory. If there are no open seats, a Gentleman should give up his seat to a standing woman irrespective of her physical condition. Whether she might be pregnant or not is not a consideration.

Sweet exchange from my youth.

1st of all giving up your seat is the norm back home, you will be reminded if you don't.

So here we are on the all seated when an elderly lady boards, one girl( my age)was sleeping and an older guy was about to wake her, when the lady said let her sleep I can see from her bag she is a student and must be tired from studying.

After that I gave her my seat and said Thank you.

lucabrasi

I'd be very wary of giving up a seat to a woman at the risk of suggesting she's "elderly" or, even worse, pregnant, when she's overweight.

I had a sweet high school girl offer me a seat, I said 'no thank you', then she made a baby bump gesture....well, that new dress I thought was flattering, wasn't after all. I laughed about it, I'm not thin, and she was just trying to be kind. Wish someone would have given me a seat when my broken arm was being pushed and twisted by oblivious commuters on crowed trains.

I agree with other posters, holding the door open for ANYONE behind you is a manner that should be adopted all over the world. There is one particular building I pass through often (it's adjacent to a station, so high traffic) and the doors are heavy glass that just slams into the person behind you.

As for the chair and giving up a seat for women only, its not really needed and shouldn't be expected, but if a man wants to do it just to be kind, I don't see any reason to be offended or call him outdated.

@Inara

Indeed. Neither are good grammar. ; )

Oh my life, it is inconceivable for 'bird pregnancy' to occur because birds lay eggs to reproduce. nuff said....

Good manners is never outdated.

Triumvere, there is no 'theory'. I was addressing falseflagsteve's statement that he would 'go out the way for a pregnant bird', and pointed out that he had no way of knowing if the bird standing in front of him was in fact pregnant or not, if the pregnancy was not far advanced. IF you share falseflagsteve's desire to be nice to pregnant ladies while avoiding a face-slap for asking every lady if she is 'up the duff', then offering your seat to every lady of child-bearing age would seem to be the way to go. Mmm. Maybe that is a 'theory'.

Whether that should or even could be expanded to include every possible medical issue is a separate question, and possibly the reason most of us let ourselves be guided by visible clues, such as crutches, plaster casts, and obvious signs of advanced old age.

@Cleo,

So the theory is that a man should always give up his seat whenever a woman comes on the the train on the off chance she might be pregnant but not showing? Pardon me, but I think that's a bit absurd. By that logic, any and every person you meet - regardless of gender - could have some sort of medical issue that isn't readily apparent and could potentially be more deserving of a seat then yourself, and that the proper thing to do as a healthy person is to just stand all the time.

Not that standing is bad. My policy generally is to stand unless I am feeling tired or I am traveling a long distance. But I resent the idea that I should stand merely because of my gender; I have just as much right to sit down on the train as anyone else. Again, offer your to people who seem like they need it, for whatever reason. Will that mean that every person who needs a seat will one? No - but you only have one seat to give up anyway.

My Japanese wife says that people in Europe have more manners than those in Japan, especially in public transport.

In Japan it's age before beauty. Giving up seat for females that demands equal rights just doesn't sit right. Giving up seats to elderly whichever sex on the other hand seems more obvious to me.

True story. Last night we were eating at a food court and there was a high school couple next to us eating. When they were done, the boy grabbed both of the trays and took them back to the tray/trash area. I thought to myself, "wow, you don't see that everyday". I glanced at the girl and she seemed indifferent. I pointed out to my wife the boy caring both trays and she suggested saying "nice gentleman" to the girl, where I replied, "no, she seems like a B#%%#. She's not good enough for him" jokingly of course.

To me it comes down to whether Women in general like or dislike the gesture. Me, I do it all the time and from the reaction women give me, they appreciate it. So until more women than not seem appreciative, I'll continue. Plus I get to feel like a nice guy.

Chivalry with close relations gallantry, loyalty and honour maybe qualities society considers to be outmoded, well at least in some quarters. After all I dont expect a guy to jump up and down like a demented jack in the box when little old me enters a room.

However I blush crimson, when a gentleman shows courtesy and attentiveness.

Once I offered to give my seat to an old women on the train she said do you feel pity for me. One time held the door and the old geezer said I am not handicap I can get the door for myself!!! So it depends, I guess!

Is it outmoded? Yes. Nobody does it anymore.

I resent being called "nobody".

Giving up a seat to a PREGNANT woman - very considerate and thoughtful and most gratefully received. Giving up a seat to any woman in general - not necessary.

Of course it's not "necessary", but it shows consideration for the women around you. If the women choose not to accept the offer, that's fine. I have yet to be confronted by a woman accusing me of being "sexist" after showing some basic courtesy - and I've been doing these things for quite some time.

if it isn't showing then she is probably ok.

How do you know? More than 80% of miscarriages occur in the first three months of pregnancy. The whole point of offering your seat to any woman, regardless of whether or not she has a clearly visible bump, is to make sure ladies who need a seat get one, and blokes who want to do the right thing don't get their faces slapped for asking daft questions.

For women specifically, yes it's outdated. For people in general, no.

Cleo, well when the bump is showing obviously, if it isn't showing then she is probably ok. I am not giving up my seat for a bird on the off chance she is up the duff, or should i ask them if they are and risk getting my face slapped?

Funny to read about "OLs" and even "birds" on a forum pondering whether certain attitudes and behaviours are outmoded.

I dont think it is needed for able bodied women. I will go out the way for a pregnant bird

How do you know whether the bird is pregnant? By the time the baby bump is showing, the pregnancy is already past the most unstable stage. Lots of women who look 'able-bodied' might be up to 4 months pregnant and you wouldn't know.

They'd still appreciate a sit-down on the train, though.

@katsu, Nope. Chivalry and decorum for women. I reserve the spite for the feminists and other self-righteours politically "correct" folk.

I dont think it is needed for able bodied women. I will go out the way for a pregnant bird or one with baby or toddler. With elderly or disabled it doesn't matter if male or female.

Is it outmoded? Yes. Nobody does it anymore.

Speak for yourself... some of us still have manners.

I find that allowing the OLs to get off the company bus before the salarymen in the back seat is not only polite it drives the guys nuts. Being a gentleman was never so much fun.

The earliest lessons we learned were proper manners & "It don't cost nothing to be nice!" Sadly there seems to be a shortage of manners on the Subways in N.Y.

I still do it these days.

Often confuses my dates they don't know what to do or how to behave. It is OK and enjoyable to do if but with many things you need the right partner who responds in same mind.

Was surprised when woman 26yrs my junior asked to give her lesson in etiquette.

As for the guy not standing up for his woman , didn't he partake in the singles demo recently.

Those single men that were protesting about Xmas. I bet not one of those men open doors or give up their seat.

Doesn't really matter if it's a man or a woman, being considerate of others is never outmoded. It's polite to let others go before you regardless of gender. Good manners is good manners.

That's a custom which has very little to do with road-traffic and a lot to do with buckets of effluent being thrown from top-storey windows.

Lucabrasi, particularly with bonenkai season unfolding, a more modern reason is to avoid their contact with "road okonomiyaki."

MagnetDEC. 21, 2015 - 07:03PM JST Chivalry may be dying out, but there are those among us who have still have some personal standards of decorum. Even for a feminist I'd treat as if she were a real woman, if only to incite their irrational rage further.

So your notion of 'chivalry' and 'decorum' is to treat someone the way they don't want to be treated just so you can see them get mad? Good luck with that.

One I neglected to mention: I have been known, on occasion, to change or otherwise give up my seat so that couples, family members, or small groups of friends may sit together. It's always awkward when you are traveling with someone and there is only one seat available... I think it's a nice gesture.

I hold open the doors for both sexes?

Most of the so-called "gentlemanly" acts come from a galaxy far, far away when man totally ruled the world and little woman stayed at home and had kids. And kept quiet.

Being well-mannered applies to both sexes. And that includes radical feminists please.

Definitely not outmoded. Out of practice, definitely. Chivalry may be dying out, but there are those among us who have still have some personal standards of decorum. Even for a feminist I'd treat as if she were a real woman, if only to incite their irrational rage further.

Funnily enough, I don't really do these things in my own country but here in Japan I do try to make an extra effort since I feel like I have to live up to the 'lady farsto' stereotype that some Japanese women have about foreign men.

Triumvere:

Exactly. I'd do these things if the other person needs it, regardless of their gender. I'm certainly not going to give up my seat to a young woman I don't know and who is obviously not handicapped in any way or not pregnant, or not with child. Besides, I myself am not young anymore.

I'm not saying men shouldn't open doors or offer seats etc to others JUST because they're women. Good for them. But leave me out of it.

What gestures can women make that men appreciate - apart from the bleeding obvious (don't go there!)?

How about just giving them the time of day

@Laguna

That's a custom which has very little to do with road-traffic and a lot to do with buckets of effluent being thrown from top-storey windows.

Still, you're a gent.... : )

Might be my age, but I still instinctively choose the position closest to the road when walking with a woman.

I would be weirded out if someone pull a chair out for me. Of the things listed, this is the only one I would consider outmoded. As far as the other things, it shouldn't depend on gender. If you are sitting on a train and noticed an elderly person struggling to stand, then it doesn't matter what your gender is or the gender of the elderly person, you should offer up your seat. And it's just common Western etiquette to hold a door open for someone, regardless of gender.

Pretty ladies think it's a privilege

I think it goes something like this:

Holding open doors, etc., for anyone in need - You are awesome.

Holding open doors, etc., for women automatically because it's the custom you were raised with - Old-fashioned, but no one's probably going to get up in your grill over it.

Holding open doors, etc., because you think women are weaker - painfully sexist.

Holding open doors, etc., because you think it will get you laid or at least some attention from pretty women - kinda pathetic.

only for the pretty ladies its fine.

Up to the individual.

@Warwick

I know the feeling. I once had to stand on the Fukuoka subway from Hakata to Tenjin (admittedly only five minutes) on crutches and with my right leg clearly in a plaster cast. Everyone was suddenly asleep or absorbed in their diaries (before mobile phones).

I don't thing it's a sign of ill-will, though. Japanese people are just reluctant to create a stir of any kind....

Most of my fellow passengers on the Chiyoda Line seem to be of the opinion that displays of courtesy such as these are outmoded. On the trip to work this morning, the train was boarded by a lady who was not only in her 80s and walking with the aid of a stick, but also visually impaired. All of my fellow travelers opted to show sympathy by pretending that they also couldn't see.

Regrettably, I was brought up with a much less sophisticated system of etiquette, so I oafishly stood up and offered her my seat, which she accepted with a beatific smile. I really should make greater efforts to assimilate into this kizuna culture.

@Nathalie

Just the other day, a woman standing behind me on the railway platform tucked the label on the back of my sweater back in for me, without a word.

It was a funny kind of karma; I did the same thing for a woman I didn't know a year or so ago.....

Giving up a seat to a PREGNANT woman - very considerate and thoughtful and most gratefully received. Giving up a seat to any woman in general - not necessary.

Holding a door - yes, thank you. Again, very considerate, but equally as a woman I would do the same for a man so as not to let the door slam in his face.

Pulling out my chair or opening my car door - unnecessary, but nonetheless a nice gesture if you want to. Not expected of you though.

I'd be more interested in what gestures men would expect from women -

Are you impressed by a woman who offers to pay half on a date, even if you have offered to pay? Or offers to pay for drinks afterwards if you insist on paying for dinner? What gestures can women make that men appreciate - apart from the bleeding obvious (don't go there!)?

I voted 'yes' because, like Triumvere and smithinjapan, my manners aren't sexist.

Traditional sliding doors required you to turn around to close it. Thus, you would not shut it if someone else was entering, so Western technology caused the slam in the face door attitudes here.

@katsu78

where the woman gives the only available space

I've seen even "better" where a woman spreads all her purchases over the seat and stands there looking at them... !

As for me, when I was pregnant it hardly showed so I pushed out my tummy and a very nice young Japanese man gave me his seat. Much later, if fact fairly recently I entered a very crowded train and was going to stand in a corner when another young Japanese man offered me his seat... I do believe it's catching on over here ! In any case, I was certainly most grateful to these two real gentlemen.

Not at all. But then I do the same regardless of gender.

I still do this and always will, I am surprised at the number of people who says it is outmoded.

Ridiculously outmoded.

Give your seat up to someone that looks like they need it (old, tired, injured, pregnant, with little kids, etc.), not because of their gender. Hold doors doors for anyone that is close by; that's just being polite.

I am not a woman, but I wouldn't particularly want men running around trying to pull out my chair for me or open my car door if I were. Embarrassing, unwanted and unnecessary, in my estimation - and most of my female friends seem to agree.

Outmoded would imply that at some point it was the common practice and is now considered common practice. Taking into account that this is a Japanese newspaper we should reasonably assume that this question is about Japan specifically in which case, no it is not outmoded because it was never common in the first place.

We have a reputation for being a very polite people here, but I believe that the truth is there is no great difference in the level of politeness between Japanese or many other countries. The two nations which I have lived in are America and Japan so those are the only two I can appropriately contrast. I have a drivers license in both countries and to me the Japanese appear far more rude than the Americans when it comes to cutting people off, abruptly stopping or slowing, parking on the side of the road and disrupting traffic. In the part of America I used to live in all of these things would be considered very rude. The same incosideration (I am not sure if that is a an actual English word but I think it works) is true when people are walking. Especially in aisles in the stores. People will stand in a way so that no one can pass them, or they will abruptly turn, stop or without even looking over their shoulder and cause the people behind them to have to stop or duck out of the way to avoid being hit.

The politeness that foreigners speak of about Japanese I think is touted across the Western world because of tourists not residents. To me it seems that the things which are rare in America are common hear, and the shock of these things (plus the fact that tourists usually are not driving and instead of going to grocery stores on their visits they just go to restaurants) allows them to overlook the things they would consider impolite.

I think that even though we are no more or less polite than western nations that we shouldn't judge our standards of politeness by these western nations if they were never conventions here. Seriously, pulling a chair out for someone? That is hard to do when for much of our history we were sitting on the floor.

LFRAgain, I feel the same on the chair issue, however, I find myself still doing it for the ladies just to be polite.

But, my friends insist that I don't do it for them because they know that the chair will disappear from under them before they sit.

koiwaicoffee: Yes. Nobody does it anymore.

Really? I guess I'd have to cont myself among all the nobodies out there.

I agree with many posters above. Good manners and simply being nice are not outmoded behaviors. They are models that people, regardless of age or gender, should -- and many do -- aspire to.

The chair thing, though... Hmm... I'm not too keen on it, either doing for others or having it done for me. It just doesn't serve any purpose, in my mind, other than to implies a feebleness on the part of the recipient. "Is that chair too hard for you to pull out? Let me get that for you. And please be sure to time your sitting just right so that I'm not essentially scooting you across the floor like a child in a pushcart. We would want to appear silly." I just don't get the social or practical utility of holding then pushing in chairs for people, much less feeling put out if no one does it for me. The 'couth'-quotient of the chair thing totally escapes me.

But letting a door slam in someone's face? That's just obnoxious, any way you cut it.

Despite all the political correctness and decline of gender here and there, it is these customs that seem old fashioned enough to be outmoded that actually continue to define us.

Also, lots of the comments about being civil are valid - I agree.

@cracaphat

Well, then, I certainly hope you've never been heard to laugh out loud, which was the height of bad manners two hundred years ago.... : )

The Godfather has brought up a trait common to some selfish men brought up wrong by their mothers. They will end up getting ditched by their ex. No good manners...not nice.

TheGodfatherDEC. 21, 2015 - 09:23AM JST He didn't want to give up his seat because that would be insulting and outmoded.

How could you know that? Did he say so? I suspect if they were a Japanese couple the reason is more likely to have been that Japan never had this custom. I frequently see couples where the woman gives the only available space to the man, and the man takes it. It strains credibility to suggest this is a rejection of a western cultural attitude that never existed in Japan in the first place.

Do you think that a man giving up his seat on a bus or train to a woman, holding a door open for her or holding her chair as she sits down is outmoded?

In Japan……YES

Where I come from……NO

Next question?

"it is not outmoded. Good manners never go out of style"

True story. Last week I was sitting on the train with my suitcase and laptop bag. A couple got on and the man sat on the available seat and his girlfriend was left standing. She didn't seem to mind. At least initially.

She then started to complain that her legs were hurting. But he kept sitting. She then said that her back was hurting. But he kept sitting. He didn't want to give up his seat because that would be insulting and outmoded. She didn't want to insist. But she was in pain. They kept talking nonsense throughout the journey.

When we all got off I was tempted to tell the man how disgusted I was with his behaviour, but I didn't.

I just thought... good luck to them in their soon-to-be ex-relationship!! :-)

koiwaicoffee: Yes. Nobody does it anymore.

Really? NOBODY? well I do and I think many do.

No doubt young people think its a waste of time, but what do they know.

Actually, one often does "hold" a chair until the person to be seated is in the process of sitting and gently pushed to the chair back in a comfortable amount. Pulling the chair out and letting go of it at a distance from the table that would allow one to comfortably move in front of the chair to sit would leave the person sitting far from the table and require them to grab the sides of their chair and do that silling hopping slide to get closer. And it is not outmoded... There are simply more uncouth people in the world today. And as for Japan, it can not be outmoded when it was never the norm.

I'd be very wary of giving up a seat to a woman at the risk of suggesting she's "elderly" or, even worse, pregnant, when she's overweight.

And surely nobody "holds" a chair; you remove it from under the table for the sitter. It's not going to run away.

Anyone who doesn't hold a door for the man or woman behind them is an ape.

I agree with Brainiac.

It's not nothing to do with "mode" or fashion. If someone needs a hand with something, help them. It doesn't matter whether the person is a man or a woman.

No, it is not outmoded. Good manners never go out of style.

Is it outmoded? Yes. Nobody does it anymore.

A man that does these things even for women he doesn't know is a real gentleman.