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Have you ever hit your child, no matter how lightly, as a means of discipline?

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Yes I have, when they were little, a spanking here and there. When my oldest son thought that he could go around fighting other kids when he was 16, I gave him the fight he was looking for, he never touched anyone after that, and now he is a hard working father of 3 of his own kids and understands the need for discipline. I know a lot of people today think that it is wrong, but every child is different, some need that type of discipline, and I know some will say that the spanking at a young age caused him to act violently when he was older, but none of my other children ever did as he did, and they got their equal share of spankings when they were little...Take a look around at all the undisciplined children today and tell me that disciplining children is wrong! I am not condoning child abuse, just discipline when needed.

24 ( +30 / -6 )

I assume a disciplined spanking administered for a valid, easily-understood-by-the-child reasons, counts here? If so the answer is yes.

18 ( +26 / -8 )

There is a difference between hitting and spanking (for punishment), I think you need to make that clear.

13 ( +16 / -3 )

I can't tell you how many times, I have had mothers asking me how do discipline an unruly child, but I tell most of these mothers that in many ways it's their fault for ALLOWING their kids to dictate to them what they want. My kids never threw themselves on the ground in the shopping mall and screamed bloody murder until I gave in. I often kids saying to their parents, I hate you, if they can't get their way. I have seen kids kick their parents, one kid pick up a butter knife in a restaurant and waved it in front of the mother and the father was busy texting on his phone and had that, "yeah, whatever look" Another thing that bothers me and where I have some concerns, I have a few students that are around 7 and sometimes inappropriately touch their mothers or grab them in a jokingly way. If I would have done that, I probably would have had my picture on some milk carton. I love my kids to death, would do anything for them, I am firm, but fair and I don't spoil them too much, yes, sometimes, they pout when they can't get their way, but that's tough. Life is NOT about giving the kids everything they want. You have bad kids everywhere in every country, but I think in many Asian countries kids feel a bit of self-entitlement, again, people don't have to beat their kids, but they shouldn't slack as parents and blame the kids for THEIR poor or inadequate parenting skills. Perhaps some parents think that since the kids are already subjected to doing a lot of daily study and cramming, they need to vent. Sure, but you still need to follow the rules and NO, means NO.

12 ( +15 / -4 )

Hell yes! They have even threatened to call the police for doing so. I place the phone right in front of them and tell them to call an ambulance too.

9 ( +15 / -7 )

If nothing else works, telling them the "oni" is coming works wonders.

lol. This is interesting, and I'm not criticising you in any way for your discipline methods, but this got me thinking...

If spanking a child is "violence", then isn't verbal threatening of punishment by a supernatural being a form of psychological abuse? There are plenty of ways to screw up a kid without using physical violence.

I think society's obsession with corporal punishment is misplaced. If anything, I think we should be focusing more on the verbal threats that really mess with a child's sense of self worth and confidence. At least with a spanking, it is over with quickly and the child knows as long as he is good, it won't happen again.

But when faced with the threat of the supernatural boogey-man, that is going to constantly replay in their minds.

9 ( +12 / -3 )

@cleo

Maybe about three times in total, and afterwards I regretted it every time. It wasn't discipline, they didn't need physical chastisement, it was just me being too tired/frustrated to think things through, and it didn't help.

That's the problem, you should NEVER hit your kids out of anger or rage, of course that would never help.

Hitting kids, even lightly and in the name of 'discipline', is never a good thing. All it teaches them is that it's OK to hit others to get your own way.

That's your personal opinion, there are 6 of us and known of us have ANY lasting emotional or physical scars, in fact, it made us better and more responsible people, but what works for ME or MY family might not work on you, but when I spank my kids, I always would tell them why they were getting hit and afterward, we would have a talk about why it happened and why it was necessary. My kids have never started a fight, they are not like that. I do a follow up, my kids are fine, as a matter of fact, they are some of the best behaved children at school. I'm always getting praise and compliments as to how nice, respectful and courteous my kids are. Because I make sure my kids are in line. They love me, they know I would do anything for them, the least they can do is listen. I don't spank them often, I'm proud of that, but when I do, it's because I care.

6 ( +11 / -5 )

Never felt the need to raise hand on my kid (he is five yrs now). I treat him like a grown up, talk to him and reason with him and believe me he understands better. I always encourage him to ask questions, however silly they may be and I believe hitting or giving corporal punishment may kill his drive to ask questions and seek answers in life out of fear. I want my kid to be fearless and not being afraid of anybody and for that the first person I should control is myself.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

As a last resort.. I've given my 4 yr old a slap on the ass when he continued to do whatever it was he was doing, but only after I told him numerous times to stop

5 ( +7 / -2 )

@cleo

Kids are chronically overstimulated. That is why they need ways to center themselves in a frenetic world. If parents practice some form of self-development, their children will grow up in a healthier, more relaxed and aware environment

What a bunch of crap. Chronically? That's what liberals and these quack Scientist are calling unruly kids these days. It's amazing how can you can push all the blame on parents and NOT give ANY child ANY responsibility. So they're totally absolvent of any wrong doing. I know many, many parents that do self-development and still have unruly kids and please don't say, "they should try this or that" you don't know them, therefore, you can't judge them. These people live and gave their kids everything you described, but still their kids were monsters. Liberals ALWAYS want to blame other forces for their own mistake and inadequacies and also never want to realize, that kids DO screw up from time to time. I'm just tired of all these idiotic excuses, people want to blame always the parents, yes, they are responsible for raising their kids properly. My dad grew up dirt poor in the South of Louisiana, totally abused by his parents, beaten, yelled and cursed at. I would always hear stories from him and how messed up his life was, as a teenager, he robbed and stole and did what he could to survive, spent time in Jail, just a hard bad unfortunate childhood. My dad was a great father, never abused us, yes, he was strict and I go spanked maybe seriously 3 times in my life. So I know for a fact, just because someone might have a very unfortunate and abusive life, doesn't mean that he or she will pass that on to their future kids, in fact, that might teach them to wanting to give their kids a better Iife than what their parents had.

why would you imagine for a moment that I would choose to let my kids run around or do whatever they wanted? They were always well-behaved, the few times they did step out of line it didn't take any slaps or spanks to set them right.

If so, that is great. But your method doesn't work on everyone, sorry.

You used ALL other alternatives, none of them worked, and you ended up having to get physical? Maybe you unwittingly taught them that anything goes until the blows begin?

Nope, I did everything right and besides, my kids are great kids, I always taught them right. But when they get out of line and that is usually rare, I give them a warning first.

That Dad isn't really serious until he starts lashing out? Seriously, if you got yourself into a situation where nothing but blows would work, doesn't that tell you that basically, your method wasn't really working for you?

Not true, having to spank my child and the end result is of my child following what I say, proved to me as well as my kid that my way worked. And because of the way I am. I'm always getting comments from parents as to how my kids behave and are so respectful and that makes me feel real good knowing I'm doing a good job as a parent.

5 ( +7 / -2 )

I'm going to have to agree with Bass4funk, I was one of the unruly kids when I was one, my parents would often try the talk to me method, but as I was back then, I didn't really care so much. What I wanted to do seemed a lot more important, until I got spanked, then it hit home that what I was doing was not acceptable. Its thanks to my parents who disciplined me with spanking that I am now a responsible and law abiding adult. I often hear from colleagues and others around where I live (those who are around the same age as my parents in particular) that they wish their kids were as polite and disciplined as myself.

I see a lot of this "New Age - don't spank Parenting" happening around the place and in particular at school my mother teaches at, and the children of these parents don't seem have any respect for authority. I bet if they were spanked a couple times (at the appropriate occasions of course) they'd sharpen up really quick.

5 ( +8 / -3 )

@Davinyoko

I totally agree with you. I don't think anything is wrong with spanking a child when needed I think it should be used as a last resort. But it should be an option. I don't belive in hitting my kids out of rage or just senselessly. I have seen kids so out of control and parents throwing their hands in the air wondering, where did I go wrong. Problem is, many kids take the parents kindness for weakness and kids will always push to see how far they can go. Personally, I was a child that got spanked about 3 times in my life that I recall, my eldest sister got spanked a lot, it just all depends.

4 ( +7 / -3 )

My parents would beat the heck out of me.

In my country if you don't behave even someone from the neighborhood has the right to spank or beat(lol) you as it is considered that the child of a member of the community is the the child of all the community.I got also beaten by my teacher for fighting in high school and we would regularly been hit or punished physically for not behaving.

At a moment people don't even need to tell you to behave just a look and you behave at once (cuz you know what's waiting for you :D).

I'm not violent, I'm not crazy and I think i received a good education.Thanks Papa and Mama lol

4 ( +9 / -5 )

Swift smack on the back of the hand, as well as a show of anger, as my very young daughter went to poke her wet fingers into a plug socket. She was more shocked by it than hurt, and never did it again. I intend to go out of my way never to hit my kids, and hope that consistent, fair parenting and alternative forms of punishment will suffice.

4 ( +5 / -1 )

If nothing else works, telling them the "oni" is coming works wonders.

I would think very hard about using that 'strategy', kickboard. My 2-year-old granddaughter went through a phase of the 'nightscreams' - she would wake up in the middle of the night, screaming or crying and terrified. Turned out her Japanese grandmother had been promising her that monsters would come and get her if she was naughty. SIL had a talk with his mother, the monster threats stopped, and so did the disturbed nights.

I'm dead against hitting a child, but even I would prefer a quick slap, over and done with, to playing with a child's mind.

4 ( +10 / -6 )

@Cleo

I have to disagree with you, kids today are more influenced by their friends than by their parents, I see it everyday with my neighbors, they talk and talk until they are blue in the face, and then yell, and it is only a few minutes before the police are called , not on the parents, but on the child, for striking their parents and siblings, and their parents have never once hit their children. In a perfect world your reasoning would be head on, but unfortunately it is not a perfect world and not all kids can be talked to and reasoned with.

4 ( +6 / -2 )

@papasmurfinjapan

I understand where you are coming from, and agree that in some cases the absent father is a major problem, but in the case of my neighbors and many others it is different. They were a happy family until the oldest son started high school and got new friends and stop being friendly with his father and mother because it was uncool. Everybody needs to fear someone or they will go about doing as they please and hurting whom ever gets in their way, the person they should fear is their father, I get along with mine, but to this day and as old as he is I still fear and respect him, and that is good thing! People who fear no one end up either dead or in jail a lot of the time, abuse is not needed to make your children fear you, but discipline is. Trying to talk to your children as they were your friend or equal does them no good at all in most cases, unless they are well behaved and good-natured from birth, which to be honest is rare, but it does happen.

I also think many of us are talking about children at different ages. Children under two should never really be hit or swatted,even though I am guilty of it myself, from the age of 3 till 13 a swat or two will do most of the time in my experience, then any age after that you have to be careful because it may back fire, especially in the case of girls, but every once in a while you have to go all out, as I had to do with my son. After I did what I had to do I pulled him up gave him a hug and told him I loved him and that it would be the last time I would ever lay a hand on him. ..I ask him years later if that was what straightened him out he said partly, the other thing that help him was when his friends who were watching told him later that they had wished their fathers loved them enough to intervene as I did, that at least I cared...I only did what I did as a last resort, and luckily for me it worked, and what cause his down fall was what we have no controll over, his friends at school and their influence.

4 ( +4 / -0 )

My mom used to swat me a few times with the fly swatter if I got out of line. Aside from that, I never got hit by my dad. After seeing my brother get the strap by him I made sure I was good boy. That was 30 years ago.

4 ( +7 / -4 )

why would anyone choose to use corporal punishment? That's what I don't understand.

Because not all parents know what works best, and sometimes for some kids there's nothing that works.

4 ( +5 / -2 )

Yes, twice. He's now six years old, so I'll post again in another 10-12 years and let you know the total then. Hopefully it won't be much higher.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Hell yes! They have even threatened to call the police for doing so. I place the phone right in front of them and tell them to call an ambulance too.

That's something my dad has said to my sister once, after that statement, she was really careful about her language. Sometimes, words are enough to convince someone of their actions.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

"Hit" simply has too many levels for too many people. There is a MASSIVE difference between giving a kid a slap across the face for bullying his sister, for example, and lightly slapping a kid's hand as he is about to put it in a camp fire.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

I have to disagree with you, kids today are more influenced by their friends than by their parents,

That is true, but you have to consider "why" that is true. Could it be that the father's first priority is work rather than spending time with his kids. I think if a parent has a healthy relationship with their children - meaning they spend time with their kids and as a family and communicate with one another - then for the most part, the kids will learn to be well behaved and polite.

I work with kids, and meet over 100 different kids a week. At least half of them almost never see their fathers. He goes to work before they wake up, comes home after they sleep, and on the one day a week he does get off he plays golf or goes fishing because it's his "day off" which means he wants to pursue his hobbies rather than spend time with his family. He may not hit his kids, or get angry at them, or yell at his wife - he may be the most polite guy on earth - but if he neglects his kids, which many, many fathers do, then they are going to look elsewhere for role-models.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

Yes, I have. But only when they have completely ignored the rules set down, and they knew they were misbehaving. But this is very rare, as just a simple warning of what may happen, is enough to snap them back onto the correct path. My kids knew exactly how to behave. Even on public transport and in restaurants ,they were ok, and knew how to respect other people.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Empathy. Kids need to know that hitting some hurts, and being hit, hurts. Without this very, very basic understanding you end up with bigger kids hitting little kids because they have no idea what it feels like to be hit and adults won't teach them, and the other kids are too small to teach them.

I don't hit my kid often, perhaps once a year, but smacking offences are generally related to either immediate physical danger (e.g. trying to stick their hand in the blender, or touching fire) or hurting others. You hurt someone else, you get hurt. Simple rule, simple logic. No anger, just a short sharp smack to the rear and and long explanation afterwards why they got smacked. ... and honestly, if my kid could choose I think they'd prefer another smack to the explanation. My kid only cries when I explain why what they did was wrong, its the disapproval that hurts most.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

@cleo

So you look at one other reactive method, decide it doesn't work, and conclude that the only other alternative must be a good spanking? You've admitted yourself that spanking does not work in the short or long term - otherwise why did your sister 'need' repeated spankings?

I'll admit that the big repeated talks my sis had with my parents didn't work either, but the spankings were quite a bit more persuasive. But overall on her, it was more effective.

It would never happen.

I can say so quite categorically, it would never happen. Stuff like that does not happen out of the blue. Have you understood nothing at all of what I have written about proactive parenting, dealing with problems before they happen, not waiting until there is a problem and then wondering what on earth to do about it? Nothing at all?

You are too funny. Yes, I heard you, but I'm NOT buying it one bit. And yes, things can happen out of the blue, without the help of the parents intervening.You always want to play the devils advocate and hypotheticals yourself as long as it fits within your narrative, but when someone asks you a simple "What if" scenario, you all of a sudden emphatically say, "it would never happen" so why don't you answer the question? If your child would hit you, curse at you or pull a sharp object and waved it in your face. Would you also just try to talk some logical sense into your child? We never know how kids will act. Anything is possible, ANYTHING! I am asking a perfectly legitimate question, please answer.

Did you bother to read your own link, by the way? While trumpeting (or at least tinkling) that spanking 'isn't the bugaboo that many people make of it', it also points out that children spanked past the age of six do suffer in later life - so it would seem not to be a very good 'last resort' for those older kids who are into drugs, slapping Mum in the face or waving a knife at Dad. (But seriously, if this kind of thing is really happening, the family is way past the 'last resort' stage...). It also points out that what is important is not spanking per se, but discipline: it’s more the willingness on the part of parents to set limits on children not ready for complete freedom. Limits, boundaries, rules, can be set and maintained without spanking.

Funny, my kids are past 6 and they are fine. We all got spanked and all are fine all of my kin. Boundaries, rules can be set and maintained, but what happens when all else fails and you gave it your best. Then you might just have to resort to spanking.

You do realise that those crazy deranged psychos think they're as normal as the rest of us? Even while they're allowing their kids to starve to death (stories in this week's JT)

Yup and that's why when many of them get caught, they get locked up and the key is thrown away.

And lots of average, everyday normal parents obviously don't know what's in their children's best interests

But the majority do, I am talking about the majority, don't split hairs, NOT talking about the possible 10%

hence the popularity of SuperNanny and any number of other how-to-raise-your-kids programmes. And if every parent knew exactly what they were doing, and were doing it successfully, we wouldn't be seeing all these little tykes, baby-biting toddlers, mother-slapping schoolkids or knife-waving adolescents.

Don't believe it, might work on some, but not all. If spanking is the last tool the parent has, when everything just doesn't work, it should be most definitely be available.

3 ( +6 / -3 )

No.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

Pray tell how you would expect the baby-biting two-year-old to resolve her problem by herself. How much 'opportunity and freedom' do you reckon she would need/should be given?

The one who can't solve the problem by herself is the infant being bitten. That's the most serious problem here and one that has to be forcefully addressed by the infant's guardian.

The problem the two-year-old has to work out is how she will be able to get close to her sister again, as a responsible parent would keep the biter away from the infant, or, if physical separation is made impossible by living circumstances, harnessing her mouth in such a way that she can't possibly harm anyone with it. Resentment against a new infant is as common as it is temporary, and the vast majority of kids resolve it (ie "deal with it") without any parental intervention at all.

For a two-year-old to resort to biting as an ongoing problem, I would wonder if there was something lacking in the relationship between parent and daughter prior to the arrival of the newborn.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

@Tokiyo Doing nothing and hitting are BOTH neglectful. They are both lazy solutions so that the parent doesn't have to bother to teach the child an actual lesson.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Is that really what you want your child to learn, that IF you get caught doing as you please someone will smack you? Or would you rather your child feel badly about doing something that will harm or bother others, because he genuinely cares about others and genuinely doesn't want to harm them or make his mother worry? Those two entirely different results are brought about through two ENTIRELY different teaching methods.

As for the "but I turned out just fine!" that I addressed much earlier on: Bear with me through a brief metaphor: Relying on Nuclear power vs purer but less convenient energy sources.

Just as many child victims of nuclear disasters will grow up just fine despite receiving radiation (i.e. bad teachings), others will not fare as well. However, it will always be difficult to near-impossible to pinpoint which cases of cancer would have happened to the person anyway, and how many were the direct result of the radiation. The one thing we know for sure? Radiation is something to be avoided, you really can't tell how you would have turned out if you weren't exposed to it, and despite relying on nuclear energy to power the whole nation, we KNOW there are better, less easy alternatives!

And just as nuclear energy still has massive support...

3 ( +3 / -0 )

@cleo

bass4funk, tiredness is not anger.

Whether you are tired or not, point is, you should never spank a child out of anger, meaning, for No apparent reason.

As you say, that's your personal opinion.

Yup, that's right, for MY kids, it's the right thing. Worked s far.

2 ( +8 / -6 )

I have hit my child in the past. Regretted it every time so I stopped doing it. I am not completely against it. It is just not for me. The Indian-Canadian comedian Russell Peters did a great bit on the cultural differences of discipline. Basically, the point was that only 'Canadian' kids get away with being rude to their parents. Very funny. Check it out if you have a chance.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

@ultra

In my country hitting children for discipline is illegal.

Which country is that?

@papasmurf

If spanking a child is "violence", then isn't verbal threatening of punishment by a supernatural being a form of psychological abuse? There are plenty of ways to screw up a kid without using physical violence

I absolutely agree. Personally, I can't stand people screaming and yelling at kids. Sure, in small doses, you can elevate your voice, but shouting at them like Sgt. Gunnery in bootcamp is not my particular style, but to each his own. But yes, there are plenty of ways you can screw up a child. Spoiling them, giving in to their wishes and trying to reason with them, knowing that they will play on your emotional sympathies to me are equally as bad as the over-the-top physical punishment.

2 ( +7 / -5 )

@oikawa

I would have never give my kids a spanking for not eating their greens, only if they had broken a rule that they had been warned numerous times about, and also understood beforehand what the consequences of their actions would be. They need to learn that there are consequences, some kids can just ignore you all day long, just let your words go in one ear and out the other. If they are doing something that could endanger themselves or someone else, believe me, a swat on the butt is the better deal! A few seconds of pain from a spanking, or a stay in the hospital or even worse the police station or jail, which is the better deal?!

It takes a while to figure out how to be a good parent and by the time you think you have it figured out, they are grown and have their own kids. It would be nice if every child came with an instruction manual, but they would have to write a special one for each child as we are all different.

Some Kids will never need a spanking, some will, and some could get a million spankings and never change, it is a case by case bases. I know some will disagree, but some people are just born bad...Ever have one of your kids or grand kids act like one of your siblings or uncles that they have never met, even sometimes have their facial expressions and mannerisms ? It is in our genes, some of it is learned behavior, but some of it is inherited.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@cleo

It's simply not true. I respected my parents, never feared them, never felt the need to go round hurting anyone who got in my way. Two brothers who were once young men, they also had no need to fear their parents, neither of them ever hurt a living soul. And no, we did not live in a 'perfect world'.

Again, for you that is not the way, I get it, but it just simply won't work for everyone.

I would be mortified if I thought my kids feared me. I flatter myself that they respect me. Certainly neither I nor their father has ever had to 'go all out' (whatever that means - I shudder to think) with either of them.

My kids also respect me, but they also know their boundaries and where the buck stops and know NOT to push certain issues.

Why do you think they are not listening? Having taught them that lesson (It's OK to hit people who don't listen to you), would you approve of them going out into the world and getting physical with people who 'do not listen'?

I taught my children to never start a fight, but I taught them to defend themselves and never to let anyone push them around and again, as a last resort. So I know when they go out, they would never harm or start anything with anyone, unless they are physically engaged.

Would it be OK to, say, slug a traffic cop who refused to turn a blind eye to a speeding offence? Or to drag a girl into the bushes if she refused to listen to a pick-up line? Beat up the interviewer who declined to hire them for the job they really, really wanted? Where would you draw the line? Don't hit outsiders, just family members?

You are going into the realm of Nonsense, NO one is advocating anything that drastic or going overboard. If you don't know where to draw the line, then you don't need to be walking around in a free Society. Most people have common sense and know automatically when and where to draw the line. You are way over paranoid.

Talk of hitting kids to make them 'respect and fear' their parents is just so wrong,

That's YOUR OWN personal OPINION, I am of a different opinion.

I'm sorry, but I cannot see it as a way of just 'doing things differently'.

And I can't see how some parents allow their kids to do whatever they want, when they want and how they want. I'll betcha Lindsey Lohan's parents were the typical hippie L.A. Putting everything in her mouth with a silver spoon. Ever see her parents? They should have been slapped and she probably was never properly disciplined. I am quite sure of that. The girl and her mom have a strong self-entitlement attitude. If anyone would have been more deserving of spanking, it would have and should have been her.

It's the last resort of parents who haven't tried or have failed with other methods.

Can't say that, my parents tried everything and nothing worked, so my sister needed to be spanked, I thought so, she thought so and because of that. Now my sister has HER own house,career 2 cars, lives in a beautiful neighborhood, her daughter (who got spanked on occasion) is getting ready to go off to Harvard, full scholarship. Because my parents were so strict, she strayed and the stern punishments helped to get her on track. So for us, it was a complete success. I'm proud of both of them and was always happy the way my mom and dad raised us.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@Cynicarc

And you probably don't have any lasting scars, I assume. You are not violent or have any bent up issues? You have a decent relationship with your parents, no grudges? You don't hate your parents oro prone to bash someone's head in do you?

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@Bass4funk, definately no scars, and in fact I love my parents, we get along really well, I visit them almost every fortnight. I know and understand that they did what they did because they cared for me and that they'd do anything for me if I applied myself to what I wanted to do (so long as it wasn't criminal of course), and its this that helps keep us close. As to the prone to bashing? I'm probably more likely to sit someone down with a drink and talk things over with them.

I think my parents went around the right way of doing things, I mean I was the youngest and thus usually able to get away with more, but if it rounded out my two older brothers as well as myself, then obviously, the system works for those who are a bit more unruly. If you're lucky enough to have children who never get to the unruly stage (completely ignoring your instructions, blatantly disobeying the rules you've set down, causing trouble for your family and others, etc) then of course you won't have to spank them. Spanking on young children creates a learned shock like action, if the shock is great enough and painful enough (though not too much), your body tells you it doesn't want that pain again and associates whatever you were doing with that pain, and you then instictively avoid doing that, thus they have learned not to do whatever it was they were doing.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@cleo

In the immediate instance, a slap might work; It will teach the child not do wrong when there's a chance of getting found out. But you aren't always going to be there to administer a timely slap.

I don't need to be there, my kids are old enough and wise enough. They don't slap no one and no one slaps them. They turned out fine.

You need some strategy that will prevent them wanting to do wrong, even when there are no authority figures around to administer instant punishment. Most criminals who end up in prison didn't figure on getting caught or found out.

My strategy worked on my kids, so my wife and I are quite content.

Most criminals who end up in prison didn't figure on getting caught or found out

That argument can be made and applied to anyone, cheating on your spouse for example. I guess, there are a lot of people on this planet who's parents screwed up, by your logic, if they taught their kids properly and gave them a good talking to, then there would be less divorces in the world

Idiotic excuses for hitting kids, yup, I'm tired of those too.

And thank God, I never had to worry about that, the way some parents do.

You don't know what my 'method' is, I'm pretty sure you've never tried it, so how can you say it doesn't work?

Correct, I do NOT. But you seem to think that you know EVERYONE else's method as being wrong, when I can throw it right back at you. But I won't do that, because everyone has different ways of parenting and mine works the best for me.

2 ( +4 / -3 )

@cleo

Can't agree, Nessie. Maybe the parent hasn't found what works, but that doesn't mean nothing works or that hitting is the only way. And the more s/he relies on hitting, the less likely s/he is to find what does work. Lashing out is easier and in the short term can be more satisfying. Till you realise you've got a kid who's either a) afraid of you or b) skillful at making sure you aren't around when he's doing something that he thinks would get him a spanking or c) prepared to do to others what his parents did to him.

You're generalizing once again how do you each parent didn't give it their best shot or put the time and effort. These are all your own personal opinions, don't make it seem that you are right, because spanking is something that you abhor. I don't judge you, you need to realize that. For SOME parents, yes, they go overboard. But the majority of people judging by this polling seem to not agree with you, you don't have to think its right, but many here on JT differ with you, it's ok to differ on issues, but stop touting as if your way is right, because we don't know how and what measures these parents used or went through in rearing their kids. Don't convolute the issue,

2 ( +6 / -4 )

unless you take the extreme position that all violence is wrong no matter the circumstance.

In an ideal world this would be the best solution.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Sorry, but it doesn't add up. If spanking should only be used 'when all else fails', isn't that in itself an admission of failure?

No. Not at all. If spanking was not the last resort, than some other punishment would be. If using the last resort was a failure, than one would have to keep removing the last resorts until there was no punishment or consequences left at all.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Imagine the shock, disappointment and BETRAYAL experienced by a small child who is struck by the one person in the world they believed they could trust, be protected by and respected.

You know, having been spanked myself, I can't really imagine this. Because I never felt anything remotely like it. Not saying it couldn't happen, but it's hardly a necessary consequence.

look very carefully into the many alternative, and kinder more loving methods there are to discipline your children.

I heartily agree. Pursue alternate methods. I'm just not sure we need to attach an enormous stigma to the act of spanking if performed in a responsible manner. I appreciate your explicit attempt to avoid doing so.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

That's ideal,

and the words fair were thrown around as well. I dont think lying to children and telling that it is fair is real.

Let's see; @cleo are you saying you were hit, and you were messed up because of that? That would make your stand-over attitude plausible. Or your not messed up, and the hitting didnt effect you. Or you know your messed up, but you dont want to change and have something by way of reasoning to substantiate that like the part where you quoted Phillip Larikin, whoever the f that is. Or you know your messed up, and you dont want to change, because you think youre right.

And what is ideal anyway, 2 kids, as you say you have cleo. So while your version of an ideal parent is non-spanking discipline, total honesty, and attention focused, never for a moment incapable loving parenting. You are though, willing to have teach and install a somewhat scattered and not ideal reasoning of sex onto your children. Or you are suggesting that abstinence is also something you teach your children when they get older? And that has absolutely no reflection on the love you and your husband or wife havefor each other. Or that taking drugs, or manipulating your body by means of well, from anything to putting on a mask to complete destruction of your bodily parts, is , well okay.

perhaps the ability to say that we arent perfect as parents, you arent perfect children, will help the child learn that it is an imperfect, un-ideal world. Life isnt fair, and that is the way it is. Then the child could understand that there are different , all sorts of different, situations.And thus rather than regulating everything into a square box, understand that it is a lot mre complex, and a child who is raised to be a open-minded person is what most parents try to do, no matter that the road to the end result may be different.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking help when you need it. THAT should be the true ace-in-the-hole for parents when they can't handle themselves. Ask for outside assistance BEFORE they need to take your child away! I just had to get that point out of the way before we proceed.

they'd rather give up one of their own children rather than being considered a "hitter?"

Whoever said any of this was about what you're labelled as? How is anyone else to know what goes on behind close doors? At the fundamental level there is only you and your child between this, spare the conscience you have to sleep with at night.

There are measures to take beyond striking a young person.

"Beyond"? Striking is already a failure, anything worse than that can all be lumped into the same category of failure. Any and every action you choose from this category is something that can be avoided by the responsible parent, so arguing what is "worse" in this category is entirely and completely irrelevant. You have options!

Now, let us take another sample from a set of individuals whose pathology is nowhere near as serious as the above person's, and that a physical whipping is the very thing that keeps a person from choosing to cross a very serious line a second time. You actually see something inherently wrong with that?

Quite inherently. You're merely stopping their offense itself rather than the cause of why they offended. Treating the symptom and not the.. 'sickness' is illogical. Let me exaggerate to illustrate clearly: You know what else would stop your child from doing wrong? Murdering them. Yep, they'll never try to pick-pocket again that way, be rest-assured of that.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

There is not one study from a reputable, peer-reviewed source that shows spanking/corporal punishment works, but there are numerous studies that show various negative effects of spanking/corporal punishment. Most of them show increased levels of violence and decreased ability for conflict resolution as they age.

Having said that, my son is 3.5 and I struggle not to spank him sometimes. Not spanking is the more challenging way to raise your kids, but unless you are a lazy parent and are spanking your kids routinely, then their end result is likely not much different.

2 ( +3 / -2 )

@bass I said that striking was a failure, not the parent. So yes, if they have striked they have committed a failure. It's only human to have committed failures. The problem is when you're not able to recognize your past failures as such. Then you will keep committing the same failure over and over again... I'm trying to stop someone's cycle of failures by commenting here today... If I considered you all "failures" I wouldn't be bothering to comment, as you'd be beyond convincing...

@Yabits If you need to stop the child "in the moment", can't you just pick them up and take them away? At the moment I'm not able to imagine any situation in which "striking them" would be the necessary way to stop them in the moment. Can you give any examples? After safely removing the child from whatever awful thing they were doing/ about to do, why NOT concern yourself with what motivated them??

Children are beings that are begging to be taught and filled with information. They do not beg for pain. Please note this distinction before you bring in words such as "violation" to the table. I agree you shouldn't try to mold a child to be the 2nd version of yourself and your own dreams and wishes, and that raising a child is a 2 way street (you listen to their interests, and you safely guide them thusly) but that's another discussion entirely. It's more than possible to teach a young child sympathy; When he does wrong and sees you emotionally upset, even young children can connect the dots.

And... "pompous"?? there you go again talking about it as if images and labels of said parent were what was motivating a parent, abusive or not... Where you are getting this idea from? It seems like such a far off tangent from our discussion, and quite frankly I've never heard it used by either side of this argument.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

@cleo

If you feel I'm 'distorting your words', I'm sorry. I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.

Been trying to do that for the last few days, but Ok.

You don't make it any easier for them. How is that different from making it harder? If it's not easier, it's harder.

I don't get how that is making it harder, when for me it is much easier. Seriously.

And in your house at your dinner table, that might work. You get the greens into them. But they still don't like the veggies; when they go out and have the chance to choose their own menus, they're going to be less likely to make healthy choices, with lots of veggies, when they're free of Dad's watchful eye and there's no danger of a swat. So while you may have instilled 'obedience' into them, you haven't really taught them how to look after themselves long term by enjoying a healthy diet.

The way I have been educating them about food, hardly, but even, if so, once they get older and become more inquisitive like I was, then they most likely will automatically come to those conclusion and they know how we eat at home, so it's imprinted in their brains, because they hardly see junk food around the house. So, I am really not worried about that.

So there's stuff you don't like, and that never gets put on the table; but you don't allow the kids to have their own likes and dislikes, and you don't 'bend over' to make mealtimes pleasant for them. Is this a distortion of your words?

No, it's my house like Eddie Murphy once said, "I pay the bills, lights and I make the rules." I try to set a good example, I hate carrots, I can eat them, but I don't like them, my kids know this, but I show them, if I make them eat the veggies they don't like, I have to do the same. That's why my kids eat them.

Do you think you would have 'results' if you were allowed to hit other people's kids? Would you be happy with other people hitting your kids when they thought they 'needed' it?

I would NEVER hit other people's kids, but in seeing how many of these mother's just aren't strict enough and let the kids do whatever they want, talk to them however they want, just astounds me. It just wouldn't happen with my kids. I would never allow it, but my kids never touch things that don't belong to them.

You know, my kids never ever go anywhere and touch things that don't belong to them either, why, because they've been taught to respect other people and their possessions. When they go out I don't need to follow them threatening to 'pop' them if they step out of line, because I know they won't. You can only 'pop' them if you know about the bad behaviour as it happens. If you hear about it later second-hand, the 'pop' doesn't stop the bad behaviour, it isn't being used as a 'last resort', it's simply delayed punishment. And if you don't even hear about it, the threat of the 'pop' is so much hot air.

As I said before, if it works for YOU, that is fine, I am all for it. We just have different approaches, personalities, backgrounds etc. My thing is that, I just don't understand when I go in public how many Japanese parents can let their kids do whatever they want and apparently, talking doesn't do them ANY good. The kids know that the parents will always give in to them.

if you don't have a problem with your kids, what problem is it you're solving when you swat or pop them? And if it works every time, how come you need to hit them every time?

Let me clarify that, I don't have a problem per say, but if a problem should arise and if the talking doesn't work, I quick pop does....every time. Problem solved.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

Little reminder occasionally doesn't go amiss.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

Yes but on rare occasions!

1 ( +3 / -2 )

bass4funk, tiredness is not anger.

That's your personal opinion

We are supposed to write someone else's opinions here...?

in fact, it made us better and more responsible people

As you say, that's your personal opinion.

1 ( +7 / -6 )

@Cleo

I never said they were the same, I said respect and fear, they are two different things! And yes, most young men need to fear someone, no matter where you live, not just gangland!

You also seem to take every single word so literally, you know what I was trying to say, so please do not try and twist my words around!

Spend ten years teaching your kid that physical violence is the way to get people to listen

No! ...You use physical discipline as a last resort when they do not listen!

You may live a perfect life, in a perfect world and raised perfect children, but the rest of us are not so lucky, we live in the real world where life is not scripted and predictable! All my children turned out just fine, they are well adjusted adults now with no adverse affects from the spankings they received along the way!

I respect your opinion, please try and do the same, we all come from different cultures and do things differently, from raising children to the way we eat, just because you may not agree with the way others do things does not make it wrong, just different.

Have a nice day!

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Having your kid curse you sounds like a pretty negative experience to me.

My kids NEVER cursed at me, they wouldn't dare. Besides, they don't curse. Definitely not around us. So I personally never had that kind of experience.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/02/120206122447.htm

That study seems dubious at best. First problem: I have to pay to read the actual study.

Furthermore, there are about a million questions that need to be answered about their methods. What did they include in 'physical punishment?' Everything from the occasional spanking to full-out abuse? If they did, did they separate them into different severity levels when they analyzed the data? What exactly do they mean by "higher aggression towards parents, etc.?"

I'd be curious in finding out more about what they did, but I'm not paying $25 to satisfy my curiosity.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Seems like a cultural thing.

Definitely agree.

I have no intentions of spanking my kids. I think there are better ways to disciplining a child.

That's your prerogative as a parent. However, for those of us who do reserve the right to deliver the occasional spanking ought not to be restricted from doing so nor be vilified as child abusers. Just as not spanking a child does not inexorably lead to success, neither does spanking inexorably lead to failure.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

Ok, all you who think that hitting a kid is necessary for discipline. If you can hit your own kid for discipline then that would mean you would condone others hitting your kids for discipline, would it not? After all, if you fell you have the right to bash your kids into submission then that right should be shared by others like, school teachers, babysitters, etc, right? It's funny how people think they have the right ti hit their own kids but go nuts if someone else does. I have four kids and four grand kids who have never been spanked nor will they ever be. It is a family rule. Discipline does not come at the end of a hand! If you cannot discipline yourself you have no right to discipline others!

1 ( +6 / -5 )

@bass4funk

Can I be so bold as to suggest there is a distinct tone defensiveness in your writing? Are you up to the possibility that perhaps you, and other parents, can seek more creative and intelligent alternatives to "spanking" (wacking, spanking, no matter what you call it it's all aggressive striking of small and defenceless people).

When Cleo suggests encouraging healthy behaviours in children rather than trying to "control" bad behaviours you reply "we should, but it sometimes doesn't work" does that mean you have tried to avoid spanking but that you gave up?

You say spanking "works for me". I ask, does it work for your children? Is spanking a reaction to your own best interests, or your children's? If you asked them, is my spanking you good for you? How do think they would reply? You say they are now "upstanding citizens". Are they "upstanding citizens" happy in their hearts that their father struck out at them as children to "control" them instead of respecting them as individuals fully capable of learning from you, their role-model, more appropriate behaviours?

I'm not out to accuse you or any other parent who spanks their child of being bad parents - you did your best like any parent does. What I am doing is suggesting that in the best interests and well-being of children everywhere, that current and prospective parents at least consider the alternatives, of which there are many, to hitting their children.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

(wacking, spanking, no matter what you call it it's all aggressive striking of small and defenceless people)

This is where you are absolutely incorrect. There is nothing aggressive about proper spanking. My parents did not aggressively spank me, and I do not aggressively spank my children. You seem to be under the impression that spanking is smacking the child with a crazed look in your eyes and walking away.

What I am doing is suggesting that in the best interests and well-being of children everywhere, that current and prospective parents at least consider the alternatives, of which there are many, to hitting their children.

Once again, you are making a faulty assumption: You really think that spanking is the go-to method, and that no other alternatives are ever considered?

Are they "upstanding citizens" happy in their hearts that their father struck out at them as children to "control" them instead of respecting them as individuals fully capable of learning from you, their role-model, more appropriate behaviours?

I am an upstanding citizen, happy in my heart that my parents made solid efforts to discipline me in my youth, which occasionally (only two or three times to my memory) included spanking. They weren't so lucky, they got the full brunt of the "wait until your father gets home and removes his belt" generation.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

because there are testimonies that prove otherwise as well

Testimonies that prove what?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

There are too many factors one has to take into consideration before one can tell others how to parent. So, I´d rather be humble here though Im rather arrogant and cocky and say, to each his own. It´s important though not to break your child´s confidence.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

It´s important though not to break your child´s confidence.

Absolutely. I'd hope the goal of any parent is to raise their children into strong, confident, intelligent, benevolent adults, and there are many paths to that goal. Sadly, far more numerous are paths that lead away, and parents must be cautious not to misuse any parenting techniques.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

So primitive, to raise a hand against a child... I began by typing a well-reasoned, logical post on the rise, evolution and statistics of raising a child exclusively through compassion and tangible consequence rather than by strings of torment or fear for your marionette.

But I realized that if you can't come to the true conclusion on your own, you simply don't have the want/ will/ capability to, and any such words on my part would be wasted... So instead I typed this. If you have the will, do the research.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@cleo

Sorry, but it doesn't add up. If spanking should only be used 'when all else fails', isn't that in itself an admission of failure? The child is being hit because the parent has failed with other methods (assuming other methods have been tried). And if a child 'needs to be spanked a lot' over a period of years, isn't that a pretty strong indication that the spanking isn't working? Why keep on doing something you find distressing when it obviously isn't working?

As someone else remarked in this discussion, genes can also have a role in whether a child is receptive or not to his/her parents' guidance. Some children will only respond to a spanking - which usually hurts their pride more than their bottom

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Triumvere - You're still looking at the issue in terms of finding different ways to punish kids. You're assuming that the child needs punishment. You're taking a reactive view of child-rearing;

Actually, I'm not. I'm merely discussing spanking as a possible corrective tool. I didn't say anything about the proactive side of parenting. You are completely right that parents should do their utmost to ensure that children are properly supported and that problems are anticipated and dealt with before there is any need for punishment. The problems is, I don't share your iron confidence that A) everyone can be a perfect parent all the time, anticipating and solving every problem before it becomes such, and B) that even a "perfect parent" will necessarily be able to control every child. I can't imagine raising a child such that there is never a need for punishment of any sort whatsoever. Children are people, and people occasionally do things the shouldn't and know they shouldn't. You can't honestly say that every one of those instances is necessarily a "failure" on the part of the parents. You are creating a sort of impossible standard for parents to live up to, the worst part being even if they live up to it they won't necessarily be able to ensure their kid is 100% well behaved all the time. Once you accept that kids will likely need punishment at some point in time, then you open the door to the possibility that the punishment they might need is a spanking.

Could you describe a single situation where a spanking is the best strategy, where the child is not being punished for the shortcomings of the parent?

Again, I don't necessarily see every bad action by a child as necessarily being a "failure" on the part of the parents, but lets assume that there parenting mistakes have a significant role in promoting bad behavior on the part of children. That's a pretty well accepted. Also, parents being human tend to make mistakes. Furthermore, external demands (time & money, etc...) may mean that parents cannot always do what is optimal for a child. So, you get an incident where a child behaves badly, in which the parent's behavior is a contributing factor. You have a moral objection to spanking the child in this instance, because the parent is partially at fault. A few thoughts: as I mentioned before, I don't really view spanking as an immoral activity. The question is how efficiently it does the job. You could, I suppose view punishment as punishment for its own sake, a sort of moral balancing out if you would. I'm not really looking at it that way - for me, its about deterrence: the idea is to create a consequence such that A) the idea of the action being wrong is reinforced, and B) the threat of the consequence being incurred for future bad behavior is established and maintained. The goal is deterrence, as it would be with any other punishment. *If at any point it becomes clear that a method of punishment is not having the desired deterrent effect, then that method should be abandoned in favor of a more effective method." There is no point spanking your kid if it isn't doing anything to correct the problem. So the real question for me isn't "How much of this my fault and am I punishing my kid for something which I had a hand in causing?t" but "something bad has occurred, now how do fix it/ensure that it doesn't happen again?" If punishment helps to that end, then I will employ punishment as apart of the solution. If you want to get at the moral aspect, then I will say this: ultimately we are independent beings. We have free will. I believe that. Even children. Children are taught right from wrong, and they internalize that. They often know when they are doing something which is wrong to do. When you do something you know to be wrong, you open up the possibility of punishment (note: possibility rather than necessity). Again, the central issue here - the one we are not going to see eye to eye on - is that I don't see spanking as some sort of ultimate evil to be avoided at all costs. While it has some inherent negatives, it is ultimately just a tool - to be employed where it will be effective. Now, let me address what I see as the real problem in the scenario you are evoking: you have a situation where a child behaves badly; badly enough to warrant as spanking (as determined by the parent taking future deterrence into account). However, the underlying situation causing the bad behavior is ongoing, and has its roots in some sort of parental shortcoming. In such a situation, the bad behavior is likely to reoccur because the underlying problem is not solved. In this sort of situation, continuing to spank the child for each successive offence is improper, because it isn't having the desired deterrent effect. You need to fix the underlying problem. The initial spanking, however, still has value in setting boundaries and expectations for behavior and its consequences. Basically there are two issues , the underlying problem and the child's response to that problem. The child has control over the second, but not the first. Punishment may help to alter the response behavior. The biting girl mentioned above is a good example. You are correct in that the parents have failed to properly prepare the girl for arrival of a new sibling. However, this is where your analysis falls off. There parents don't have a time machine. They can't go back in time to fix the mistakes they made. They can only attempt to do so moving forward. That still leaves us with the problem of the initial biting incident. Biting your baby brother (or anybody, for that matter) is wrong, and the child needs to learn that. (This particular case is pretty easy to justify, as the biting - and thus trauma to the infant is ongoing, demanding a rapid response. But lets ignore that for the moment). This seems like a rather good example of the appropriate use for spanking: the child is young enough that spanking is likely to be effective, and that alternate forms of punishment (such as reasoning) are not. The child's behavior is extreme, necessitating a strong response. The child is inflicting physical pain on another, and a physical consequence is a clear and simple way to demonstrate both that such action is wrong and why it is wrong. This is not to say that spanking is the only possible solution, but rather it is likely to be the most effective solution in the immediate sense. You are, of course, totally correct that spanking alone is unlikely to solve the problem; if all the parents are doing in response is to spank the child, but not making any attempt to change the situation, than spanking is futile.

The problem with corporal punishment being seen as a 'last resort' is that it tends to become the first resort

First off, I don't believe this is necessarily true on an individual level. Secondly, I'm not advocating "spanking as a last resort" so much as a cost/benefit approach. I don't really believe that spanking should be avoided unless "absolutely necessary" - I'll agree with you that its going to (almost) never be "necessary" in the strictest sense. Rather, it think that in situations of extreme behavior that it might be the most efficient tool to deal with that behavior in the immediate. I don't think spanking is a viable "long term" solution - its not going to solve the underlying problems which cause bad behavior, as we discussed, and therefor is in and of itself insufficient to deal with those problems. That doesn't stop it from being potentially useful in dealing with the behavior itself, however.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

You're still looking for ways to punish the child instead of ways to resolve the problem that is causing the bad behaviour you're trying to deter.

Wrong. The problem is the child's to resolve. Given the opportunity and freedom, the vast majority of young people will find the right resolution for themselves -- although it might not always please parents or other authority figures, a fact which will likely lead to another set of problems.

What adults in authority around the young person need to be able to do is to let him or her know when they have crossed a line, in no uncertain terms. But there's a very wide gulf between behavior which simply displeases others -- as if the person was put on this earth for others' pleasure -- and behavior which crosses the line to hurt or disrespect others.

1 ( +2 / -2 )

My choice is the former, and in this particular instance I would say that physical punishment not only will not adequately solve the problem, it will exacerbate it. The child already feels that the parents and Gran love the baby more than her; hitting her merely confirms her feelings. Of course the child needs to be taught that hurting the baby (or anyone else) is wrong; but teaching her by hurting her is not the way to do it.

Isn't any sort of punishment - no need to single out spanking - going to potentially have the confirming effect you mention? I take it you would agree, given that you don't see a punishment as warranted... but if there is no punishment, don't you essentially run the risk of reinforcing the idea that bad behavior - in this case egregiously bad behavior - is an effective tool for dealing with problems? I mean, child bites baby, and then suddenly child is showered in attention - the very thing the child was looking for in the first place. Any reasonable long-term solution is going to involve the parents devoting more time and effort to dealing with the older child. So, sans punishment, you've essentially turned biting into a winning strategy. I'm not sure why that particular lesson is an any less obvious/likely take-away than "the Gran hit me proving nobody loves me" take-away you have proposed.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

bass4funk

I'm still curious as to exactly what actions would in your opinion deserve a smack, where the smack would be and if you're smacking for pain or not. Previously you talked about "trash talking" and seemed to be referring to older children but now you're talking about smacking 2 year olds. What could a 2 year-old do that would require a last resort solution of smacking them?

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Okay, think on this; when your kids are calm and behaving themselves ask them, in a calm and adult tone "is it okay if I hit you a little sometimes? that is good for you, isn't it? If they agree continue hitting from time to time, when necessary. If they answer, in the honest way only kids are capable of, "no daddy, I don't like it, it's not nice". Then stop hitting your child from that moment.

It's a simple question from one human-being to another. You can't ask for fairer than that can you?

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Yup, thou dost.

The astute reader will clearly see that I have not protested anything here.

If parents want to raise their kids without any form of physical punishment, that is their right and their prerogative. But when they openly start casting judgment and look down on parents whose beliefs and experiences led them to a different outlook, it warrants a response.

Likewise someone who attempts to dictate their own "point" that "spanking, at best, does not work.." At a minimum, no parent should dupe themselves that a blanket "no spanking" policy is always going to be in the best interests of all children. As long as such ludicrous statements are posted, they will be met with the factual experiences of others. If it feels like a protest, it is worth recalling the words of a famous American who said, "I simply tell the truth, and it feels like hell to them."

1 ( +3 / -2 )

I remember once with my two kids.

The younger one is rambunctious, verging on wild, but not too bad.

One day we went as a family to a big shopping mall.

There were lots of escalators.

The younger one was messing around as we rode the escalators, pushing his brother, endangering himself and his brother.

I asked him to stop.

I explained the dangers.

I told him "No sweeties today if you continue like this"

etc...

He continued to mess around on every escalator.

It was a behavior issue and a safety issue.

Finally, having had my requests ignored for the umpteenth time, I whacked him round the ear and gave him a really good shouting at.

He cried for a minute or two.

But then he was as good as gold on all the escalators for the rest of the day.

And, in fact, he has been fine on escalators ever since.

Would I advocate every parent to whack their kid round the ear if they misbehave on an escalator?

No of course not!

I am not so arrogant as to think what worked for my child would work for other parents.

But, that doesn't seem to stop some parents on this thread trying to impose their wonderful anti-smacking approach on the rest of us.

I think it says a lot about them.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

@choiwaruoyaji

I assume you realize that candies aren't healthy. You realize that some parents these days never allow their children to have sugar. Calling healthy living "abuse" is asinine.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Your personal anecdotes prove nothing other than either your luck, or will to win an argument. Not everyone single person whose gotten molested has ptsd or massive issues either, you must realize. So really, that proves nothing...

As I said earlier, my personal anecdote is much different from yours. I did indeed have side effects.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

NO! Good parents shouldn't have to!

1 ( +5 / -4 )

Violence against someone is literally defined as any intentional physical force, threatened or actual, that hurts (or worse) a person.

And yeah, spanking hurts too, but from a person whose in a position of authority over you it makes it so much worse.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

our little ones

Im guessing you are saying that our, meaning the parents', little ones. When you word this like this it is hard to determine whether the children are yours, or that we are all to do parenting your way, or that in the best interest for children is for their parents to raise them. I gather you are not trying to say that you (or others besides the parents) raise everybodies child/ren. It can be confusing, because despite some parenst who have a hard time with parenting, most do okay, and better when encouraged, and helped to realize that they are important to their children and what they are doing, even when imperfect and un-ideal, it is really such a important job, just because they are the parents and are there.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@bfg. Im saying that if theres a possibility of it doing any harm it simply should not be done at all, because of the excess amount of far less primitive options available.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

I'm saying Mum used slaps and spankings that had little effect, Dad didn't and got better discipline out of us. I think we would have listened to Mum more - and she would have enjoyed being a parent more - if she hadn't been so quick to hit. But that was the way she was raised, and as we've seen on this thread people who are hit as kids tend to want/expect to hit their own kids in turn. If I'm messed up - and I don't think I am, no more than most other folk at least - I've done the messing-up myself after becoming an adult.

Exactly! You are speaking for your mother. Whether she is dead or alive, if she isnt speaking from herself, she isnt saying it. The same would be for a child, if she isnt saying it, then anything else-like you saying all children dislike spanking for discipline-is also false. So Dad was good to cuddle up to huh? And dont imply that I am messed up, that is your words, Im not putting them in your mouth, you said.....no more than most other folk....But I suggested that, because you are constantly debating anyone who suggests spanking a child is wrong and will effect the child detrimentally, and yet, you say you were hit and werent effected. You have no logic, only a dictative attitude. I really wonder whether this issue is important to you, or you just want to create confusion for the reader, and put a sense of fear into them, the reader, that there are people out there who wont like their disciplinary methods? It does seem like that. You are a hypocrite about yourself, you set standards for others and dont keep them yourself. But you say you are messed up, which you did to yourself, no matter what your childhood was like. Okay.

Oh and I mentioned the sex thing because that is part of raising a child. Or dont you know what sex is? That it is a beautiful even between two adults who love each other, and could and will produce a child.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Tokiyo- There was a time when it was considered acceptable for parents to put soap in the mouths of unruly children as punishment. Needless to say those parents were still loved by their children, but we now know that doing so actually poisons the child with very harmful chemicals and toxins.

Why stand behind old-fashioned, outdated, harmful techniques when there's no need other than to defend your parents honor? As a child, you didn't 'deserve' to be struck, and the fact that you think so is only proving to me it's ineffectiveness of teaching and discernment. You deserved nothing more or less than to be nurtured, taught, and guided toward what is right and wrong in this world, but more importantly, WHY it's right or wrong.

You wouldn't have to force your kids to stay in line if the line was the very place they grew to want to be in.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

While my fingers are not stuck firmly in my ears, I like my life, I like my childhood, I have been told I am one of the nicest people on the block. And if that for whatever the reason was brought about by poor parenting, I don't know what more I can say.

eep. disciplining children going into a nuclear discussion. THAT - I would rather not touch.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Indeed I cannot speak for your own character as I don't know you. However when you plainly said that you plan to use the same techniques on your own children, without even entertaining the possibility of your child being able to learn through teachings and words alone (judging this before they have even been born (?), before they have even committed 1 wrong doing no less!) I see that as serious cause for concern.

You're probably right about that metaphor I used though. I had to work creatively to entertain the same argument for this long of a duration... I guess I'll continue with the straight forward approach instead.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

yabits -

The son developed an enjoyment for pushing in kids from behind that he saw standing near the pool's edge. Until the time he pushed in a kid who could not swim

So until the behaviour became immediately dangerous, the parents did nothing to address it?

perhaps this is at the heart of why some people will not strike: Because they are ashamed and guilty about the perverse pleasure it gives them.

I'm quite sure some of the hitters on this thread (I'm thinking mainly of the voiceless thumb-downers) do feel ashamed and guilty about the perverse pleasure it gives them to hit a naughty child. That's why they get so upset but cannot give words to their own defence. At least the ones who do post are trying to rationalise their actions.

A rational, healthy adult does not concern himself with what motivates the young person at that moment.

Partly true. A rational, healthy adult concerns himself with what motivates his child long, long before it gets to the stage that the kid's doing stuff that needs to be stopped as quickly and effectively as possible. Proactive, not reactive.

Using rewards and punishments in an attempt to manipulate or "adjust" another person's motivations ultimately violates something far more sacred to their being than does a physical blow to their body.

Using punishments is bad, I agree. But using rewards is bad? Would you like to explain?

jump -

Whoever said any of this was about what you're labelled as?

This goes back to what yabits was saying about feeling ashamed and guilty; deep down the spankers know it's not the best way, but it's the only way they know; hence the strong negative reaction when faced with the 'spanking is wrong' argument. Just as well this is an online site; if we were discussing this in the flesh you and I would probably have gotten a few spankings by now. :-)

You wouldn't have to force your kids to stay in line if the line was the very place they grew to want to be in.

This.

bass4funk -

they are adults and they know their perspective roles, they just need to do there jobs and who cares how they feel

How many of them do you think would turn up to do their jobs if they didn't get paid? And how much harder do they work when there is overtime pay/commission/a bonus in the equation?

How do you know what I did or didn't do with my kids or how I brought them up?!

Just going off what you told us: you said you don't care if your kids see the everyday things they need to do as a chore.

Cos I don't care?! What Gaul!

Gaul to take you at your word? What am I supposed to do, mind-read over cyber-space?

It Happens to a lot of people that lose control

There we have it from the horse's mouth. People hit their kids because they get themselves in a situation where they lose control.

I got violent by the mere fact that I was forced to eat my veggies when I hated them so much

Poor bassy. My son once came home from school in tears because he'd been forced to eat natto for lunch. You'd think grown-ups (who all have our own likes and dislikes) would have a bit more common sense and empathy when it came to mealtimes. On other threads some people have pooh-hoo'ed as a waste of time and parental one-upmanship the cute little bentos mums in Japan make for their kids, but if (eg) turning veggies into a funny face or a car or a flower or whatever makes it more fun for junior to eat, I'm all in favour of cute bentos. Kids are more likely to want to try eating a veggie they've seen growing in the garden or in a pot on the balcony, and even more so if they've helped grow and pick the veggie themselves. Older kids will eat stuff they've helped cook. Simply sitting a child in front of a plate of unappetising greens and commanding 'Eat!' is enough to put any kid off his veggies for life.

I guess, my parents should have given in an not forced me to eat the stuff.

No, they should have tried making it more fun.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

@cleo

Oh dear. Teaching a child to clean his teeth off his own bat is now the same as teaching a child to want to work for bass4funk.co.ltd? I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of parents who are doing that, and still have five fingers left over. You don't have to praise your workers to get them to do their job. You pay them instead. Like I said, stop paying and quickly find yourself without a workforce. (And actually, a bit of praise when it's warranted makes for a happier, more motivated workforce and could end up putting more money in your pocket, but hey it's your company. If you want a grumpy workforce, that's your prerogative.)

It was a hypothetical as I told you before. You were the one talking about honor and praising the kids. I was using the workforce as an example. Bottom line, kids should do what they are told. Niceness can only go so far.

With toddlers?? Perlease

Yup!

So let's get this straight, as a child you yourself got violent by the mere fact that (you were) forced to eat (your) veggies when (you) hated them so much, and now you force your own kids to eat stuff they don't like. You have no intention of making the food more palatable if it involves the tiniest bit of effort on your part, and you give the kids no choice. Is this where the 'my kids could easily come at me with a knife' scenario comes from?

To a certain point, yes, but I'm not going Julia Child on the kids. Bottom line, they have to eat their veggies. I'm not concerned whether they like them or not, they have to eat a certain amount, I did, my siblings did, my parents did and everyone is fine.

Wow. Just, wow.

Wow is, that you need to understand, your pushy way of thinking is NOT for everyone, mine isn't either, we have different approaches to child rearing, that is all and i am comfortable with that. just acknowledge that. I understand that, but you seem to think your way is the right way and it isn't for everyone.

1 ( +1 / -1 )

Cecil John Howell -

Advise is neither levied nor take in a vacuum. Understanding the source of this advise is critical to the evaluation of the validity of the advise itself. I dont know who you are or what you do. I don't know if you are average or exceptional

I don't recall giving you any advice. All I did was point out the difference between the 100% deterrent of the hot pot and the hit-or-miss deterrent of the parental slap. Actually I was wrong about the hot pot; there are ways to avoid the pain, which I do virtually every day because the advantages of being able to move hot pots around in my kitchen greatly outweigh the burden of having to use a couple of pot-holders. So even 100% pain deterrent isn't a deterrent.

To raise a an exceptional person takes exceptional measures

Yes indeed. No need to hit kids to make them exceptional, though.

(On an aside, you do realise that having politicians in the family isn't something people normally brag about these days?) :-)

bass4funk -

You were the one talking about honor

?? When did I mention honour? Or even honor?

kids should do what they are told.

And you can either force them into submission, or you can make obedience easy for them and you. So why choose the harder path?

I'm not concerned whether they like them or not, they have to eat a certain amount

And if they don't you'll hit them? Mealtimes in your house must be a load of fun.

your pushy way of thinking is NOT for everyone

I'm not the one pushing veggies down unwilling kids' throats....

yabits -

that does not mean that I get to disrespect them

It means you get to spank them? ....and put a muzzle on an insecure toddler?

But what gets communicated is the basic message that the adult does not have the faith that the young person is able to work out their inner life for themselves. And that lack of faith will often be correctly perceived as a lack of respect.

What's getting communicated here is the basic message that rather than teach a child what the boundaries are in the first place, you want to let the child blunder about without direction, realising things on his own and trying to work out his inner life until he 'crosses a line' and gives you the opportunity to teach him a lesson with the flat of your hand.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

I notice most of those who think it is ok to beat kids are the same ones who under the name of feminism force their wives to work. They hate those of us who respect humanity and that includes kids!! You beat your kids and they turn out thugs who cause trouble for the rest of us you morons.

1 ( +4 / -2 )

yabits -

Your question indicates that you no longer know or care where the appropriate boundaries are.

Nah, it indicates that I think you have no idea what appropriate boundaries are.

That they would prefer to inflict psychic, emotional pains and pleasures rather than the controlled, limited physical pain of a spanking seems absolutely crazy to me.

That anyone, never mind a supposedly loving parent, would want to inflict any kind of pain, psychic, emotional physical or whathaveyou, on a child seems absolutely crazy to me.

Your own words are so very instructive of an adult who has gotten it so wrong, and explains the desperate need to feel right or vindicated. It's why granny has to be corrected for telling the child a scary story.

My childraising methods caused the other gran, who I have met maybe half a dozen times, to tell scary stories? Please explain.

The reality of the world is that no parent can teach a child where all of the boundaries are.

All of them? Maybe not. The ones a child needs to know, certainly. The reality of the world is that the child will necessarily be subjected to any number of outside influences - influences that care nothing for the child's well-being but that will, either intentionally or randomly, inflict bribes and rewards to manipulate the inner person with no regard at all for the child's inner self or welfare. Far better surely that the loving parent, who we assume has the child's best interests at heart, does everything possible to help the child resist those malignant outside influences, by giving him the tools he needs from the earliest age.

I think the best that any human being can hope for is to be allowed to develop talents and interests that please one's self

And this contradicts the need to give a child firm but loving discipline, how?

Tokiyo -

if my child were well behaved, I would not have to resort to giving them a little swat

So instead of feeling justified in hitting them, why not spend a little time wondering why they are not well-behaved?

Cecil John Howell -

please tell us about yourself and how sucessful you are (or your kids are) in life

No matter how successful and extraordinary you may be (or think you are), you must be extraordinarily naive to believe anything a person writes about themselves anonymously on the Internet. I could tell you anything and you would have no reason to believe it, any more than I am inclined to believe someone with so many spelling mistakes in their posts is exceptional and highly accomplished .... sorry.

I have no illustrious people in my family tree, just a long line of average working-class folk doing their best to get by. Both parents left school as soon as they were legally able, and worked hard all their lives to give us the best. They made sure that I and my siblings got a university education, and my own two kids are gifted, exceptional individuals making a positive contribution to society as they walk their chosen paths. I am very, very proud of them both.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

@kickboard @papaschlumpfjapan Our daughter, getting 3 years old, is a real go-for-it challenger. But the "oni" at the day care center in February scared even her. After that I threatened her once with that, but regretted it. Also main reason for me is, we live in Karuizawa, where it is real dark at night, and you have real creatures in the surrounding forests, shy ones and dangerous ones, so scaring her with a fantasy creature is not the right thing. Oh and yes I have slapped her, slightly, a few times, to show her the boundaries. And she behaves much better with me than with my wife, who is more of the all-too-common soft side, because she knows "No"means "No".

0 ( +1 / -1 )

bass4funk

All of the Scandinavian countries spanking is also against the law. I think this is the general rule in most European countries. Are you saying spanking and hitting your child is OK in your country? It comes as a surprise.

I´m not saying my country is better than yours. And I don´t have all the answers. I´m just saying it´s illegal, and spanking my child has never crossed my mind. I try to explain things to my kids, and I tell them that I´ll get angry or that it makes me sad if they don´t behave. That has worked so far. But not sure if this approach will work in say 10 years or so. I don´t believe for a second that I have all the answers of being a good parent. It´s pretty much trial and error and believing in intuition.

I don´t like yelling either. Hysteric mothers yelling at their children does my head in and hysteric wives yelling at their husbands, no wait, at me. Does my head in too. I think it is possible to get your point across without yelling and hitting.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

@cleo

if the child curses the parents out or says "blank you" trash talking to you the same way they talk to the kids in the streets is one true good reason (to inflict violence on the child)

Not violence, just properly disciplining, when all else fails.

If your child has been raised to curse you out or use expletives, or talk to other kids outside in a way you would not want them to speak, before you lash out with your hand I think you need to think hard about how you got yourselves into this situation in the first place.

Can't always blame the parents. Every circumstance is different.

It's not a good idea to hit the kid because of your own child-raising mistakes.

Not every parent had a child-raising negative experience.

Kids do not grow up cursing out their parents unless they are following their parents' example. If you don't want your kids to curse, don't use swear-words in your own speech. If they pick up a bad word outside and try using it at home, explain to them why they shouldn't use it again. (The reason should not be Because I'll hit you if you do)

Works for me and many others, if you don't like it, and it doesn't work for you fine, but my way works best for me.

That's not always the case? Sometimes kids learn cursing from their peers, people around them (friends) not necessarily the parents. Kids can access the Internet, TV, books to find out what words are out there. I want my kids to keep those words outside. I can control them, some parents can't or either don't care. Sometimes, you can explain until the cows come home and it means NOTHING to them, some kids are just naturally hardheaded, like my sister. I wasn't. My parents did everything right, so it just depends. So I didn't get hit so much, didn't need to, but my sister did and she needed it. All there is to it.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

The study was done by Canadian Medical Association. You can get more info here if you are interested.

http://www.cmaj.ca/content/184/12/1339.full?sid=d7e5f8ce-bb71-455a-be81-d3ce01d0abdd

0 ( +3 / -3 )

That link didn't answer my questions, I still have to pay to see the actual study, not something someone wrote about the study. In fact, it lends more credence to my theory that all forms of physical punishment were lumped together, which is just bad science. Furthermore, nothing leads me to believe that other parenting behaviors were taken into account. I would be willing to say that children of parents who give the occasional spanking in conjunction with being good, supportive parents experienced much less of the adverse effects proposed by this study.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

@cleo

So you agree that hitting someone because they don't listen to you is nonsense?

I agree that what you were saying is Nonesense. Not the hitting.

Neither can I. You think the only two alternatives are 'spank 'em' and 'let 'em run wild'?

Again, you misread, No, you shouldn't let them around, if YOU prefer, that's your choice, but not my kids. And spank? Most definitely after I exhausted ALL other alternative measures. Remember, what works for me may not for you and vice versa. We need to ultilize the best methods we have at our disposal or whatever works.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

Yes

0 ( +4 / -4 )

@cleo

There are lots of methods, granted. I do not believe any loving parent enjoys hitting a child.

No, they do not.

So if you can raise the child joyfully and successfully without resorting to violence, why would anyone choose to use corporal punishment? That's what I don't understand.

If you can do that, of course you should. That's why I used myself and my sister as an example. I can count on my fingers the times my parents spanked me, my sister on the other hand, cannot. She just was a hard- headed girl, that didn't care what you thought. My parents tried everything and nothing worked. Spanking her was the absolute ONLY thing that kept her in line. Again, it was used as a last resort.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Okay, instead of considering whether we should aggressively lay our hands on our children, and the silly and totally unscientific bullsh@t hypothesis that; "my parents hit me, I turned out perfect so it's okay for me to wack my kids, but you know only when really ":necessary", how about considering that there maybe, just maybe other possibilities that have never occurred to you. As a parent and a human-being are you up to the challenge?

This might give you some inspiration, though I don't hold out hope for those who prefer the easy, lazy route.

http://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifestyle/6-secrets-getting-kids-cooperate.html

0 ( +3 / -3 )

I'm curious about hearing some concrete examples of situations that might arise where people think children should suffer corporal punishment, importantly including the ages of the child, because my eldest is 6 and up til now there has been no situation when I've been frustrated with her behaviour that she has been able to comprehend the situation as an adult would. If we hit disabled adults of the same mental age we'd be imprisoned immediately. I physically stop her doing things sometimes but never use violence. If she pinches her sister for example I physically separate them immediately and then get her to talk about and explain whatever it was that made her do it in the first place, like having her pencils nicked. Tell the kid explicitly what to say and get them to practice asking, talking and communicating as early as possible. I think spanking is stupid in that situation because of course she doesn't know how much it hurts, doesn't really want to hurt her sister and is just frustrated, and violence will, make no mistake, beget violence. If you spank you never teach kids how to release that frustration by themselves, and simply communicate. I had various forms of physical punishment as a kid and I look completely normal, lots of friends, good job, pretty normal guy, but underneath there's something bubbling away that sometimes unleashes itself and I think a lot of men do, but if we'd been taught differently as children I think we'd be very different. Of course 99.9% of people aren't serial killers or psychopaths but not being one of those is not actually much of a yardstick as "having grown up alright".

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@cleo

There are plenty of studies showing that corporal punishment is Not a Good Thing. Try googling 'effects of corporal punishment'. It isn't only my personal opinion, though why my posting my own opinion here upsets you so much beats me. Doesn't JT provide this board for us to post our opinions?.

I don't care what the studies say. First of all, the majority of them are subjective, second, these writers and authors don't know anything about me or my family personally. Don't even start with that. As I said, before, my father was an abused child and he never, NEVER was abusive towards us, he was the best father a child could wish for. Again, spanking saved my sister, my parents did EVERYTHING right. Your opinions don't bother me at all, I just don't like you trying to present your opinions as facts, that's what I have a problem with. Please make sure you state them as your personal opinion.

You don't judge me for what, pray? Raising two fine, upstanding young citizens who are a credit to their father and me and who are both making a valuable and positive contribution to society, without hitting them?

Great and I and my wife have spanked ours and they too, are upstanding citizens, so now we know, we have two different ways of bringing up kids. Kudos to the both of us.

There are lots of topics most people don't agree with me on. Doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Doesn't mean you're right either.

Many people doing the same thing (like crossing on a red light?) doesn't make it right.

But it doesn't make it necessarily wrong either.

We know they (you?) ended up hitting the kids on a regular basis, and justifying it to themselves as being 'necessary'.

letsberealistic -

What??? I never said, I hit my kids on a regular basis and for one, I don't hit my kids. There is a big difference between spanking and hitting. It's justifiable to me, because it works for me, when I have to use it.

Is hitting the very BEST way we can come up with to communicate to our kids that what they did is unacceptable and to encourage healthy behaviours?

Totally depends on the situation.

If we concentrate more on the latter (encouraging healthy behaviours) there is naturally less of the former (bad behaviour). The hitters seem to focus more on what to do when a child misbehaves, to the detriment of teaching the child good behaviour in the first place.

We should, but it sometimes doesn't work.

If I can train my dog and cat using only positive methods, and get great results, why on earth would I come to the conclusion that the only way to get good results with my kids - whose upbringing (training) is way more important and carries way more weight - is to hit them?

I don't see the correlation of kids and dogs and cats, but I strongly feel, you can rear your kids anyway you want that helps them to becoming great people in our society. I would never tell anyone on JT how to raise their kids. Or anyone else's When you do that, you are going up a very slippery slope.

0 ( +4 / -4 )

@letsberealistic

Can I be so bold as to suggest there is a distinct tone defensiveness in your writing?

I am ONLY defensive when it comes to people trying to either push their opinions as facts or telling individuals that the way they think, act do things is wrong because they are right. For example, this topic we are talking about now. There are many ways of raising a child. For me, yelling at a child is far worse than spanking a child, but that is my own personal opinion. Being stern is one thing, but doing an Alec Baldwin is another.

Are you up to the possibility that perhaps you, and other parents, can seek more creative and intelligent alternatives to "spanking" (wacking, spanking, no matter what you call it it's all aggressive striking of small and defenceless people).

I do and have, spanking is just another tool, that should be cautiously used as a last resort, but it should be an available option.

When Cleo suggests encouraging healthy behaviours in children rather than trying to "control" bad behaviours you reply "we should, but it sometimes doesn't work" does that mean you have tried to avoid spanking but that you gave up?

It means that as a parent, my first responsibility is to being there for my child and to raise them properly and to respect and love them. This is basic as to how parents should view their kids. When they are bad, I do whatever I can to set my kids back on track and if all else fails, they get spanked. Simple. Has nothing to do with giving up, you don't know anything about me, therefore, you cannot make a rash assertion that, I just Gave up. You make it seem as if I am just a cave man that beats up on his kids, if so, you are letting your judgement cloud your vision. You can be against it, fine, but for me and my family, my way works great!

You say spanking "works for me". I ask, does it work for your children?

Sure does, that's why I have 2 whiz kids that are very popular in school and they respect and listen to people.

Is spanking a reaction to your own best interests, or your children's?

Both

If you asked them, is my spanking you good for you? How do think they would reply?

I don't care how they reply, it's not a democracy. They get spanked, NOT beaten. If you shoot someone and they have to go to jail, how do you think the criminal would feel and who cares, right?

You say they are now "upstanding citizens". Are they "upstanding citizens" happy in their hearts that their father struck out at them as children to "control" them instead of respecting them as individuals fully capable of learning from you, their role-model, more appropriate behaviours?

"I" say??? Excuse me, NO, I You know nothing about my kids, me or my family. I have no idea as to what you are babbling about, but I know my kids, my kids. We have a great relationship and always talk, so to answer your rather incendiary question. I am an excellent role model for my kids. We have a deep understanding for one another.

I'm not out to accuse you or any other parent who spanks their child of being bad parents - you did your best like any parent does. What I am doing is suggesting that in the best interests and well-being of children everywhere, that current and prospective parents at least consider the alternatives, of which there are many, to hitting their children.

Yes, I try to be the best dad there is. Again, the options of many ways to raising a child. There is NO particular one way and once you exhausted all of your verbal and innocent.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

There are some challenging times when my son gets out of order. So far though, I keep saying, no, or give him a what are you doing? look. He sometimes tells me to leave the house when he gets angry. I try hard not to laugh and tells him this is my house. All I can say is that being a dad was much better than my wildest expectations. Why I was afraid of getting married and becoming a dad 7 years ago. If I knew how great it was I´d get married sooner but I guess I needed that time to figure this out. A parent child relationship is not one way. It goes both ways. Just as you need to teach your child you need to learn from your child just as much. Together you grow.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

I would like to combine two quotes -- words of wisdom -- as my contribution to the discussion. The first is the well-known prayer that goes, "Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference."

The second, less well-known, is paraphrased from a well-known American leader in the field of athletics: "The secret of coaching or guiding anyone is knowing who needs a pat on the back, who needs a kick in the ass, and who needs to be left alone."

There is an extreme position being taken here by one side of the discussion, and extreme positions are usually grossly wrong. The extreme position might be stated as follows: "There has never been a child, anytime, anywhere, who has benefited from a spanking."

The extremist non-spanker will either be forced to concede that perhaps somewhere and someplace with some children, the carrying out of corporal punishment would actually be of benefit, and that to completely remove it from the options available to a parent is actually doing the child far more harm than good -- or they will stick with their extremist position to the very end. (Despite millions of testimonies to the contrary.)

0 ( +3 / -3 )

@Ultra

There are some challenging times when my son gets out of order. So far though, I keep saying, no, or give him a what are you doing? look. He sometimes tells me to leave the house when he gets angry. I try hard not to laugh and tells him this is my house. All I can say is that being a dad was much better than my wildest expectations. Why I was afraid of getting married and becoming a dad 7 years ago. If I knew how great it was I´d get married sooner but I guess I needed that time to figure this out. A parent child relationship is not one way. It goes both ways. Just as you need to teach your child you need to learn from your child just as much. Together you grow.

If that works for you, more power to you. I think it's great, if your way works out for you and your kid. You do what you think is right. I will do the same.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

All it teaches them is that it's OK to hit others to get your own way.

I'd like to challenge this assertion.

It seems like a simple, intuitive consequence on its face, but it makes a lot of assumptions, which I am not sure are correct. First off, it treats "violence" as a single undifferentiated category, assuming that the child will automatically make the analogy from "spanking" to other types/intensities of violence, from a young child to other types of possible recipients, and from a disciplinary context to a different context. Second, it assumes that the act of spanking will will somehow out weigh all the other anti-violence/moral teachings/examples provided by parental figures. It may seem clearly hypocritical to you to spank a child and then turn around and say "no fighting, violence is bad" but, I'm not sure a child will automatically see it that way (I certainly didn't). (I could also add something here about cost benefit analysis of the potential harm done vs. the potential benefits gained, but I'll leave that for someone else).

It seems to me that assumptions are the greatest enemy to any sort of reasonable discussion of this topic. There are two major areas of potential barriers to communication: A) people imagine differing levels of corporal punishment when terms like "hitting" or "spanking" are used: the is a great deal of difference between the kid who gets beat weekly with a belt, and the kid who receives two or three light swats to the bottom over the course of their childhood. And B) people extrapolate from their experience, both as children and parents, without acknowledging that corporal punishment may effect different individuals in different ways. I.E. simply because alternate methods were successful for your child does not mean they will be successful for another. The opposite is also true: just because spanking worked for your child does not mean it will be beneficial for another.

I understand the urge to simplify, generalize, and extrapolate - everyone is looking for a universally applicable rule - but I don't think it is helpful in this discussion. The above concept - "corporal punishment teaches acceptance for violence" - is not necessarily true in all situations, unless you take the extreme position that all violence is wrong no matter the circumstance. The only thing it clearly teaches, in my opinion, is that corporal punishment is a potential parenting tool. If corporal punishment is an anathema to you, and you make no distinction between it an other forms of "violence," then of course that is not a message you will want to send. But if you can compartmentalize the corporal punishment form other forms and contexts of physical force, then what is to say your child will not do the same. Especially with you there to guide them.

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@oikawa

I'm curious about hearing some concrete examples of situations that might arise where people think children should suffer corporal punishment, importantly including the ages of the child

As I said before, you should really never hit a child under 3. Cleo took this to mean that I thought it was OK to hit young babies. Let me give you one example of when I thought it to be OK. I worked at a job where I visited about 3 homes a day, mostly foreigners, of those 90% American. I showed up at one home and the Mother and father were there as was the grandmother. They had a two year old girl and a six month old boy, the parents were always trying to make deals with the two year old, almost asking permission from her for certain things, seems she was not really into the idea of sharing her parents with a younger brother, so as soon as everyone had their backs turned she clamped down on her little brothers arm with her teeth and would not let go, the parents started trying to talk and negotiate with this little girl to get her to let go, but with no luck, finally the grandmother walked over and swatted the girl on the butt and she let go. In that case it was 100% OK in my book. Now, she was raised by two loving parents who used no corporal punishment at all, but she still used a form of violence on her younger brother. So the question is, should the parents have continued negotiating with her as her little brother screamed in agony, or was the grandmother right in swatting her behind? ....Just like any other animal, some of us are born more aggressive than others, some of us just are.

One other time when I thought that a youngster might have needed a good swat on the butt, was at again the home of an American, they had a five year old son who just looked like his was trouble, and again the parents let the boy rule the home and treated him as an equal, he knew he could do what he wanted and he did. I had to walk into this boys room, and as soon as I did he pulls out a kitchen knife and says he was going to cut me, at first I thought he was playing around, but then I realized the knife was real and called for his parents, so they stood there for a few minutes trying to convince him that I was not there to steal his toys, but he was sure that I was, finally I had had enough and grabbed the boys arm and took away the knife and gave it to the father and told him I would come back when the boy was gone. they did not make him apologize to me or even talk to him in a stern voice, just promised him that they would buy him a new toy tomorrow. As I was leaving the father said he was sorry, and that the boy had pulled a knife on his mother the week before, seems that they were moving and she had to pack up some of his toys and he did not take kindly to it. So what is this boy going to do when he gets older and does not get his way, well I am sure he is in his thirties by now, but in my opinion he needed a good swat on the butt or a visit to a child physiologist. Looking back now and having the life experience I do, I would go with the latter in his case. That boy was just mean!

Over the six years I worked at the company I visited over 3,600 homes, and you could tell who was a disciplinarian and who was not, 80% of the kids who had no sort of corporal punishment at all were rude, condescending and in some cases just plain mean. Some of the children raised in the manner Cleo and others speak of were very well behaved and kind, but the majority were not. When you walked into the home of disciplined children, you could tell right away, 'Yes sir' 'No sir', was what you heard, there were a few exceptions, but not many. I will admit also that there were some that were overly disciplined and who would not move out of your way unless they were told by the parent to do so, they were afraid to do anything with out consent,even move out of your way, that is a sign that discipline has crossed a line.

I was married at 19 and had six children by the time I was 30, being a parent at a young age is harder, you go by what you have learned growing up. You either copy your parents style or learn from it and improve it, or at least try to improve on it. Sometimes you just have to go with your gut, it is not 100%, nothing ever is!

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In an ideal world this would be the best solution.

Sadly...

Chilling to think that anyone would consider 'all violence against a child is wrong no matter the circumstance' to be an 'extreme position'.

It's extreme in that it is literally at the extremity: on a scale of 0 to 100, you are at 0. You can't go less than that. I didn't mean to imply that non-spankers were somehow "extreme" in the sense of "beyond the pale." I'm sorry if gave that impression.

If spanking should only be used 'when all else fails', isn't that in itself an admission of failure?

That doesn't follow logically. (See: Yabits above). Also, it makes the same sort of assumption I mentioned above. There might be different degrees of corporal punishments, some acceptable, some not. Also, you noted yourself that some sorts of non-corporal punishment might actually be worse: emotional manipulation can potentially lead to emotional scarring. There might be some non-corporal methods which, while still acceptable, are actually a better candidate for "last resort" than a spanking.

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@cleo... do you realise you're coming across as arguing for argument's sake?

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@bass As someone who looks like they're trying to point out what's subjective and what isn't, it's surprising to see you write such a clear fallacy... "Everyone knows what's best for their children" is probably the biggest heap of BS I've ever read... Are you actually assuming that every human raises their child sufficiently? What a dream world.

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The Global Initiative to End all Corporal Punishment of Children website states Sweden's anti-corporal punishment law; "Children are to be treated with respect for their person and individuality and may not be subjected to corporal punishment or any other humiliating treatment

whoever is claiming that Swden is some thing to be reckoned with has no idea.

You are dreaming if you think the state can do a better job. ARe you aware of the recent case in Swden where a ward of the state, a child, died in her guardians home. Are you aware how much her parents fought to get her back? And that is just the cream of it-26000 cases in 2011. Are you claiming that all those parents are lesser than the state-when the state really is only people too.

Hitting and spanking are two different things imo. Spanking is not corporal punishment! I dont know how you can confuse the two. ANd for all those who suggest it,that spanking isnt the BEST form of discipline as if they have the knowledge to do the best. Dont fool yourself, you or nobody is the best. As much as you may want to tell yourself that. There is no such thing as best, when you are talking about parenting.

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@cleo

The problem with corporal punishment being seen as a 'last resort' is that it tends to become the first resort; why bother bothering with proactive strategies, when a quick slap seems to settle things, for the time being at least?

But I could say the same thing as the opposite. You take the little tyke off to the side and have a "quick time out talk" and that lasts for only a little while, that settled things for a short time, but once the kid got spanked, the problem was solved for the long term. I have seen numerous cases where that has happened.

Could you describe a single situation where a spanking is the best strategy, where the child is not being punished for the shortcomings of the parent? Because i cannot think of a single one. I'm not talking about slapping a child's hand away from a hot stove, which isn't punishment but prevention, and even in that case is the result of the parent or caretaker failing to ensure that very small children cannot access dangerous objects, or failing to teach slightly older children not to touch dangerous objects.

I'm not going to go around taking exact notes on and about which person did spanking work and which didn't. suffice to say, that for those individuals that used it as a tool and it helped them whether long term or short to rectify the problem, then more power to those parents, I say and that includes slapping their hands away from a burning stove or dangerous objects. So Cleo, lets say, hypothetically, your child slapped you in the face or cursed at you or even picked up a knife and waved it in your face ( yes,I have witnessed such a thing, twice in Japan) you would just sit down and have a heart to heart?

http://theweek.com/article/index/104745/will-spanking-make-your-child-successful

@jump

As someone who looks like they're trying to point out what's subjective and what isn't, it's surprising to see you write such a clear fallacy...

Of course, it is subjective, I don't pass judgment on how people should discipline their kids and I don't need people to do that to me or trying to convey to me, that spanking doesn't work when I know for me, it does.It's NOT a fallacy for me, for you perhaps, but then again, you don't live my life and I don't live yours.

"Everyone knows what's best for their children" is probably the biggest heap of BS I've ever read... Are you actually assuming that every human raises their child sufficiently? What a dream world.

I'm not talking about the crazy, deranged psychos out there. But for the average, everyday normal person, YES, they do know what's in their children's best interest.

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Rather, it think that in situations of extreme behavior that it might be the most efficient tool to deal with that behavior in the immediate.

The writer is onto something here.

First of all, one thing practically shouts out to me in the long diatribe of the people who have decided that their way of parenting is superior to all others: "Thou dost protest too much." I'd like to write what I think is behind it all.

There is no universally agreed-upon standard of perfect parenting. However, any human being coming into any situation wants to know who is in authority, what the rules are, and if they are administered fairly, at a minimum. Although they can't articulate it, kids want to know if the people around them can be trusted. A good part of that trust comes out of the following questions: "If I cross over a line, can I count on you to straighten me out?" and "How far are you willing to go to make sure I get the correction I need?" (It's a variation of the critical question: "How much do you really love me?")

The people who reject reasonable corporal punishment as having any possible useful or valid purpose are really more in love with themselves and, by blowing loud and hard for their god-like stance, are looking for validation from the world. If you read their posts carefully, you will find the underlying assumption that every behavior and feeling exhibited by a child has a direct cause-and-effect relationship with parenting -- as if the kid's life was nothing more than a Skinner-box experiment on behalf of the parent. Life, fortunately, is not so simple.

The reality is that a parent can shelter someone only so long from a world in which a large percentage grow up knowing the knocks and blows that life can deliver, and that many feel they are actually better off for having suffered those blows.

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Yes, but in general the question isn't that simple.

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Yes, I hitted my sons several times. I couldn't control my feeling. I knew I shouldn't do that and I felt terrible after I did that. But at those days, no one understood how frustrating raising unruly kids. I was on the verge of becoming neurotic.

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A stupid parent spank a child, a clever one educate them with love and communication. Now if as a adult you parent have a problem, go and looking for a doctor/help, do NOT put your own frustrations in a child.

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You're still looking for ways to punish the child instead of ways to resolve the problem that is causing the bad behaviour you're trying to deter.

Are punishment and deterrence mutually exclusive?

In that particular instance, the slap apparently did stop the toddler biting; but it didn't do anything to improve the situation, didn't do anything to help the girl deal with the problem, namely that she was feeling sidelined by the new baby.

It did not address the underlying problem, no. But how likely is the girl to repeat that particular response to the problem I wonder? Or to use biting to deal with a future, unrelated problem? If the answer is less likely, then I think the punishment did its job.

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Cleo,

My point is there is nothing stopping you from punishing the child's action AND addressing the underlying problem. Spanking can be combined with other measures to address the situation. That includes both the child's actions and the issue that caused them. If your point is spanking alone will not adequately solve this, then I agree. In contrast, merely dealing with the underlying problem - and not addressing the biting behavior - seems like an extraordinarily bad idea, no matter how much of the underlying issue was due to parental shortcomings. Surely you don't mean to suggest that there be no consequences for this action?

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My choice is the former, and in this particular instance I would say that physical punishment not only will not adequately solve the problem, it will exacerbate it

In your opinion.

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Wow. That is seriously scary.

Some adults scare far too easily. And so many kids are sharp enough to pick up on it. If the kid doesn't want to wear the muzzle, they don't have to -- all they have to do is stop biting other people. In reality, a bite wound is FAR scarier than a restraint, and should be treated that way.

I mean, child bites baby, and then suddenly child is showered in attention

Bill Cosby, who knows a few things about parenting, used to tell his audiences about something his father would say to the kids: "I brought you into this world; I can take you out." As a child, the fear of God actually brought a tremendous sense of security to me.

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I mean, child bites baby, and then suddenly child is showered in attention - the very thing the child was looking for in the first place.

One thing the slappers tend to overlook is the tendency for small children to act up in order to get parental attention - even a slap is better than being ignored. We've all seen it, haven't we? From the child's point of view, getting slapped is being 'showered in attention' - at least the grown-ups are focussing on her now, instead of gushing over the baby - from her point of view, mission accomplished; bad attention is better than no attention.

As a child, the fear of God actually brought a tremendous sense of security to me.

Fear brings security? Poppycock. Sorry, but if you're seriously suggesting putting a muzzle on a toddler, it's a waste of time continuing this discussion with you.

as a last and final resort, of course

Don't you think, if a parent feels they've reached the stage where they're looking for a last and final resort with a two-year-old, they need professional help? Because to get to that stage with a two-year-old means either the parents have really, really messed up with her upbringing so far, or the child is psychologically unbalanced. In the situation we're discussing, we're far from being at the stage of needing a 'last resort'.

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One thing the slappers tend to overlook is the tendency for small children to act up in order to get parental attention - even a slap is better than being ignored.

But you weren't proposing to ignore the child. You were proposing not to punish the child, but to provide her with attention to remedy this underlying issue. So you are "showering her with attention" either way... just with out any sort of negative consequences - forget spanking - because you seem to regard a punishment for biting as somehow unjust.

Look, I've said what I came here to say, and this doesn't look like this is going anywhere... I just want to part by saying, I have enormous respect for what you are doing - raising what I assume to be well adjusted children without corporal punishment. That's ideal. I just don't see spanking as some sort of categorical immoral action, and if a parent determines that a spanking is necessary and proper, then it should be an option that is open to them.

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bass4funk -

the child is just way to stubborn, you left that out

Sorry, but all normal healthy two-year-olds can be stubborn, it comes with the territory. Are you seriously suggesting that a normal healthy adult with his wits about him is no match for a toddler??

Regardless, I am just saying, "what if?" the option should be available is all I am saying

Oikawa asked you what 'what if?' meant: What could a 2 year-old do that would require a last resort solution? Your only reply is that it depends. Depends on what? Can you describe a specific situation in which you would feel that slapping or spanking a toddler was the best course of action? Cos for the life of me I cannot imagine a single one.

Triumvere -

I think you misunderstood me. I was not proposing to ignore the child, I was pointing out that the child's perception is that she is being ignored. You cannot expect a two-year-old to analyse the situation with the expertise of a pro; all she knows is that Mum, Dad and Gran are all tied up in the new baby and biting said baby turns their attention to her, even if it's at the cost of a spanking.

I just don't see spanking as some sort of categorical immoral action

That's beside the point. The point is that spanking at best does not work, and at worst is harmful.

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"Depriving sweets is a kind of mental violence"...... oh wow. How simply should I put this: Sweets are a PRIVILEGE. Walking around all day with your bum NOT being smacked is NOT a privilege, but what simply should be a right.

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How did they get to be hooligans?

You're kidding?

There are all kinds of kids.

When my child was in nursery school I could see that, already, each kid had it's own personality.

Maybe you don't know this?

It's something mysterious, we also refer to it as character.

Some children are very docile and gentle.

Others are balanced between liveliness and docility.

Others are very rambunctious.

Still others are completely wild and off the scale.

You haven't observed this?

What I have observed at nursery school is a mother with a wild and off-the-scale child repeatedly trying to speak calmly to him, rationalize with him, give him time-outs etc...

You think it worked?

From what I last heard he is in all kinds of trouble at elementary school.

Time-outs, candy deprivation, patient explanations... wonderful... they worked for you...

You think they work for all kids?

You're living in cloud cuckoo land.

And it's very arrogant of you to try to impose what has worked for you on other parents.

I would never dream of doing that.

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Okay, think on this; when your kids are calm and behaving themselves ask them, in a calm and adult tone "is it okay if I hit you a little sometimes? that is good for you, isn't it? If they agree continue hitting from time to time, when necessary. If they answer, in the honest way only kids are capable of, "no daddy, I don't like it, it's not nice". Then stop hitting your child from that moment. It's a simple question from one human-being to another. You can't ask for fairer than that can you?

Then ask your child "Would you like candy for breakfast, lunch and dinner? Would you like to never have to go to school? Would you like if we gave you $1000 per month in allowance? Would you like to have no chores?" If they answer yes to any of those questions, do as they ask. Simple questions from one human being to another, right?

Kids aren't adults. They don't know what's best for them.

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Okay, think on this; when your kids are calm and behaving themselves ask them, in a calm and adult tone "is it okay if I hit you a little sometimes?

A person who put a question like this to a young person would not be an adult, but a child themselves -- one who has refused to grow up.

At a moment when the young person is calm and receptive to listening, a parent might take the opportunity to explain that it might become necessary to spank him or her on (hopefully rare) occasions when their misbehavior is serious enough to call for it. Let them know it will hurt. (I don't know of any young person who, when acting petulant, will choose to go mess with a hornet nest.) But also let them know they will get a fair warning.

Maybe you don't know this? It's something mysterious, we also refer to it as character. Some children are very docile and gentle. Others are balanced between liveliness and docility. Others are very rambunctious. Still others are completely wild and off the scale.

Very astute and totally grounded in reality. The unreal response has a parental cause behind every character attribute exhibited by a child. Every young person is wired up differently. The only thing we ultimately have to work with are the behaviors exhibited by the person.

But anti-smacking parents should also look at the mental torture they are inflicting on their kids.

Every adult has to consider if their choice of actions is best, given the young person and the situation. For some young people, physical punishment would cause more harm than good. But for others, withholding physical punishment would be just as harmful to their development.

The real danger comes when the anti-corporal punishment people band together to make laws which have the state intrude into the lives of parents who don't accept their theories of child-raising.

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God (Allah, Buddha, Mohammad, Jesus....) made PAIN for a reason. It is why we don't touch hot pots as adults. because we FEAR pain. So if the creator endowed us with pain AND uses it as a deterrent, I think it is a legitimate means of instruction our kids.

The like between discipline and abuse is anger and love. Discipline is done out of love and never out of anger. Abuse is inflicting pain (mental or physical) out of anger. Abuse of any kind is categorically wrong.

I too was beaten (not just spanked) as a child and am highly successful as a an adult. Simply at no time did I ever doubt that my dad loved me to death and no matter how angry he seemed I knew that he was TEACHING me (even if I did not understand his lesson at the time) and I understood his intent. For, as much as he hit me, he showed me care, love and tenderness.

Society is loosing its boundaries. Discipline teaches boundaries....because doing whatever you feel whenever you want is not OK. What the world lacks today is tough love...the kind tough love that me and my 5 brothers and sisters got.

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Okay, this debate is going nowhere. Some condone hitting kids some don't.

In the best interests of our little ones, how about more productive discussion; how about people sharing their suggestions for alternatives to smacking?

So, a challenge; How can you discipline and guide a child's behaviour without raising your hand to them?

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@yabits If even most hitters acknowledge it as a "last resort", then obviously there's something inherently wrong with it. Did I really have to point that out?

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bass4funk -

Since my workers are not children anymore, I don't need to praise them.

Sorry, I didn't realise you were in the business of raising workers from birth....and when they don't perform as required, do you hit them?

it's about giving the kids a choice. When it's time to go to bed, there is no democracy, when its time to go to bed, get ready do what you need to do and go. I don't care if the kids see I as a chore

I'm beginning to see why you have problems. The choice is yours, not theirs; make bedtime enjoyable so that they want to get between the sheets (for me, the promise of a bedtime story worked), or just order them to bed regardless, 'cos you don't care.

I did answe your question, if the child doesn't listen after all else fails

Sorry, but I still don't see how you can get yourself into a situation where 'all else fails'. We're talking about a two-year-old.

I'd never heard of Bernie Mac, had to google him. He sounds charming. When a kid gets one years old, I believe you have the right to hit them in the throat or the stomach.

I have a cousin who just finished serving 6 years for rape.... The kid was 25 at the time. His parents NEVER said, where did we go wrong?

Maybe they should have.

yabits -

Supposing a young person develops a compulsion for and takes pleasure in torturing animals. You really think that striking the person is the last resort?

That young person is mentally ill. You really think that striking him is going to cure him? As an animal lover, I can understand how it might make the striker feel good, but...

illsayit -

You are speaking for your mother.

No, I'm saying her spanks did nothing to help her discipline me or my brothers.

you saying all children dislike spanking for discipline

When did I say that? Some kids prefer it - get it over with quick, no need to listen to Mum & Dad lecturing, get on with things.

You are a hypocrite about yourself, you set standards for others and dont keep them yourself.

Which standards would those be? Be careful calling people names, the mods don't like personal insults being bandied about.

you say you are messed up

Where did I say that?

And you didn't just 'mention the sex thing', you spun a whole wonderful story about what kind of sex education I gave my kids and threw in drugs and self-harm for good measure. Weird.

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... Those that are unable to argue against a point yet thumb down people's arguments... I can only question what purpose they have even being here. In the face of adversity to their own belief system, some people do not open their eyes to new truths but instead plug their ears in addition to their eyes to try to shut out any possibility of moving outside of their comfort zone, and what they've come to know as "normal"...

I'm speaking to both sides here.

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jumpultimatestars- how is it ineffective if I grew up just fine? I was nurtured taught and guided. But life can't be sugar plums and candy canes all the time. Plus, it wasn't a full out beating or anything - a quick swat after reasoning, warnings, time outs failed to work. Actions have consequences, and that is part of learning what it is to grow up in society.

bass4funk - Nope, take the parents out to lunch and dinner regularly, I enjoy their company.

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Young people talking back to their elders is non existent in korean and japanese culture.

Dunno about Korea, but I see more than enough of it in Japan.

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@cleo

How many of them do you think would turn up to do their jobs if they didn't get paid? And how much harder do they work when there is overtime pay/commission/a bonus in the equation?

I'm just going by what you said, so in theory, who cares what the employees think, they received enough supposedly praise from their families, so why do I need to praise them, the should do what they are supposed to do work. They are there to earn money, NOT me telling them that they are doing a good job.

Just going off what you told us: you said you don't care if your kids see the everyday things they need to do as a chore.

Exactly!

What am I supposed to do, mind-read over cyber-space?

I really want to say something to that, but I know the Mods would never let it through, so I digress.

There we have it from the horse's mouth. People hit their kids because they get themselves in a situation where they lose control.

Point meaning that there is a flip-side to that, you have conversations that end up being out of control, goes both ways. You are not making any points on that. However, I would always retain the upper hand when it comes to dealing with my kids.

Poor bassy. My son once came home from school in tears because he'd been forced to eat natto for lunch. You'd think grown-ups (who all have our own likes and dislikes) would have a bit more common sense and empathy when it came to mealtimes. On other threads some people have pooh-hoo'ed as a waste of time and parental one-upmanship the cute little bentos mums in Japan make for their kids, but if (eg) turning veggies into a funny face or a car or a flower or whatever makes it more fun for junior to eat, I'm all in favour of cute bentos. Kids are more likely to want to try eating a veggie they've seen growing in the garden or in a pot on the balcony, and even more so if they've helped grow and pick the veggie themselves. Older kids will eat stuff they've helped cook. Simply sitting a child in front of a plate of unappetising greens and commanding 'Eat!' is enough to put any kid off his veggies for life.

If you could only see my facial expression. Well, if you want to turn Daikons into space shuttles, have at it, I believe in the old saying, "you eat what comes on the table or don't eat" but I'm not about to become an culinary architect. Now, I love veggies, all of them pretty much. I do NOT give my kids a choice when it comes to eating veggies, because regardless, they don't like them and even if I cut them to look like Daffy Duck, they won't eat them, so there is no democracy in our house when it comes to eating veggies. They'll get used to it, we all did.

No, they should have tried making it more fun.

NO, they didn't have to do no more than what they did. They were fine. They were great parents and I wouldn't trade them for nothing in this world.

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@cleo, Advise is neither levied nor take in a vacuum. Understanding the source of this advise is critical to the evaluation of the validity of the advise itself. I dont know who you are or what you do. I don't know if you are average or exceptional or how the rest of your siblings turned out. In my case, the 6 of us turned out to be very exceptional and highly accomplished individuals. None of us reflect the values and moors of society in which we were raised, but the higher standards to which our parents wanted us to aspire.

It take fire to foge steel. To raise a an exceptional person takes exceptional measures, and if you yourself are exceptional (as are your siblings), then I look upon your words as wisdom. However, if you are in fact an average person, then, I simply say to good luck with your methods. Mine are proven. In my family are statesmen, former prime ministers, cabinet/parliment members, people whom have had streets and cities named for them. Not that any of these titles or accolades have intrinsic value, but they do reflect the exceptional nature of their accomplishments/lives (as viewed in the context of this material world).

This level of aspiration and accomplishment in my family is a tradition which I will honor; to create human beings whom are leaders and contribute FAR MORE to the world and socienty that surrounds them, than they take; the exception - not the rule. In so doing I have committed to a harder path. It is not easy to hit or otherwise be hard on my kids. I would much rather spare the rod as it simply feels better for me. But if the end result is a spoiled child (which is average and what I see far too much of in this world), then I will bite the bullet, like my father before me, and levy the tough love that I was blessed with. I am very greatful that my dad had the strength and will to forge me and administer the level of discipline that I NEEDED to become that man that I am today.

0 ( +1 / -2 )

I do my level best not to spank my very spirited, now 8 year old son. I always do what I can to build his confidence with praise and persuade him that he needs to do the things he needs to do but sometimes unfortunately a spanking is the only way I can find to get his attention. I don't feel good about it, and I wonder if there is not some other way, but as near as I can tell it is what I have to do on some occasions. The encouraging thing is these occasions are getting fewer and further between.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I was thrown over a chair and hit with an electric extension cord wrapped into four lengths, repeatedly when I was a kid. It hurt a LOT. these days I have a lot of power points in my home, but no extension cords. I never hit my children. When my son played around in school with the wrong crowd and his grades suffered, I told him how in life, you are rewarded for working hard, not for slacking off. Then I offered him $50. For every exam result over 85%. Problem solved. I had lit a fire. Every night he fell asleep with school books on his face. Every school exam...quarterly, half yearly and yearly exams it would cost me a fortune. Lol. In the end I had to change the base result to 95% and $70. As he was attaining every single goal. From school he attended university. These days he has an excellent job that takes him around the world, a beautiful intelligent and loving wife with her own career and a happy home. He remains unsmacked.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@passingtime

unfortunately a spanking is the only way I can find to get his attention. I don't feel good about it, and I wonder if there is not some other way, but as near as I can tell it is what I have to do on some occasions

Appreciate your honesty. I think this is likely the same for any parent who chooses to hit their child. They feel they have no other options. Much more courageous to admit you don't want to spank your child, and to admit you want to find a kinder way to discipline your child than just trying to justify spanking.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

It means you get to spank them?

Your question indicates that you no longer know or care where the appropriate boundaries are. There is a "core" to each human being where the psyche, the inner and real person, is closest too. The person's shell or skin lies outside of it and constitutes another boundary. Outside of that lies the field of the physical world where our behaviors become visible and interact with others. That much should seem self-evident.

People who are so phobic or neurotic that they would choose to bypass the outer boundary -- the one the young person is best able to protect and recover from -- and go right to concocting a system of bribes and rewards to manipulate the inner person, does not understand what real respect is, and are to be pitied. That they would prefer to inflict psychic, emotional pains and pleasures rather than the controlled, limited physical pain of a spanking seems absolutely crazy to me. It shows they have no genuine respect for the other person, most likely because they never felt it for themselves from the ones they most needed it from.

Of course, the worst kind of parents inflict both.

....and put a muzzle on an insecure toddler?

It's amazing the effect that a physical restraint so often has on an emotional insecurity. (A noteworthy example is given by Temple Grandin in her testimony.) But of course, you think you know better. Any toddler who has to contend with an adult in power who continually tries to manipulate their inner self would be expected to be insecure. That adult has no real clue what the appropriate boundaries are.

What's getting communicated here is the basic message that rather than teach a child what the boundaries are in the first place, you want to let the child blunder about without direction, realising things on his own and trying to work out his inner life until he 'crosses a line' and gives you the opportunity to teach him a lesson with the flat of your hand.

It all depends on whether the adult believes and accepts that the inner self of the person is more precious, intimate and vulnerable to them than their outer skin. If an adult accepts that, then respect for those boundaries will follow.

Your own words are so very instructive of an adult who has gotten it so wrong, and explains the desperate need to feel right or vindicated. It's why granny has to be corrected for telling the child a scary story.

The reality of the world is that no parent can teach a child where all of the boundaries are. The neurotic parent simply can't stand to see a child "blunder about" without continual attempts to "direct" them, usually for their own selfish purposes. Blundering about is quite normal and natural and they'd better get used to it in a complex world, because they'll be doing it for the rest of their lives -- despite illusions that some adults around seem to be always "right." When the kid blunders into a bees nest and gets stung, he feels physical pain, but not to the essence of who he is as a human being.

So, yeah, when the young person violates one of the boundaries and verbal warnings don't suffice, he's going to feel a sting. It would be wrong to deliver a sting without some verbal warnings first. But we don't get into psychological coercion and guidance. I respect his inner boundaries too much for that, and want to convey that by example. A slap might well be interpreted by a young person as an adult blunder. We adults make blunders too. But the attempt to manipulate or "direct" the person's motivations is much more sinister and intentional.

And so one of the options removed is this idea that what he does is done to please mommy or daddy, or others. I think the best that any human being can hope for is to be allowed to develop talents and interests that please one's self and that, much more often than not, those talents will produce things that others will take satisfaction in also. It is ludicrous and wrong that the child will not care what the parents think, but the growth of the child demands that, over time, he or she should care less about it. Parents can either assist or hinder that growth. The "hands-off" rule that so many foolishly apply to the physical skin might better be considered applied to the inner self.

0 ( +2 / -3 )

No. No and NO. That's the way to tell PEOPLE that what they are doing needs to stop, be thought about or changed. NO VIOLENCE. We don't hit anyone else in society, why hit the weakest, youngest? It's pathetic to hit children. Absolutely.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

bass4funk -

Meaning, it is the honorable thing to do whatever it is in your power not to strike a child, I told you, of course, until a certain point.

So now you're making up stories in your own head and imagining what other people said? I never said anything about 'honor'.

I don't make it harder

To take one example, you stated that you do nothing to make the hated veggies more palatable, you're not concerned whether the kids like them or not, you just force them to eat. It seems the only way you make it 'easier' for them is that the choice is between eating ☆unpalatable food and getting hit. I think you're proving my point about the man with the hammer seeing nothing but nails; hitting becomes the first resort, not the last. (☆I'm not suggesting the food served in your house is unpalatable, merely that if the kids hate it, then to them it is unpalatable.)

I think it's pathetic when kids talk smack to their parents

So do I. I think it's even more pathetic when the only response to verbal violence on the part of the child is physical violence on the part of the parent. Makes me wonder why that particular problem hasn't been nipped in the bud much earlier.

He had everything, spoiled and loved to the core, parents did everything right except spanking the boy

Just because they didn't hit him doesn't mean they did everything else right. If he was spoiled how could his parents have been doing everything right? Seems there's a hint right there. A child raised right isn't 'spoiled'. You're falling once more into the trap of thinking that there are only two ways, hitting and not hitting. If hitting includes everything from the occasional threat of a light tap on the bottom to a daily full-blown beating, not-hitting also includes everything from providing no guidance at all to micro-managing every aspect of the child's life, with in either case most parents falling somewhere in the middle; most hitters are not physical abusers, and most non-hitters are not over-indulgent child-spoilers.

If we're bringing up anecdotal evidence of what works and what doesn't work, a neighbour of mine had a son a couple of years older than my daughter. Word had it that the father was 'strict', but the boy not only spoke back to his parents in public, he was constantly in trouble for bullying smaller kids - my daughter was the subject of his attentions on one occasion, we had the parents round at our house delivering gomen-nasai cakes and making the boy bow and ask forgiveness. Years later as a university student he was convicted of murdering two middle-aged women and is now serving a life sentence. (The case was covered by JT at the time). It came out at the trial that the father's 'strictness' involved frequent lashings with a leather belt.

Now you will say, 'Ah, but that was abuse, not discipline' - and I would agree with you. Extremes to either side don't produce good results. But if you put your rapist relative forward as the dire consequences of not hitting, then I put this young man forward as the dire consequences of hitting.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

@cleo

So now you're making up stories in your own head and imagining what other people said?

Now you know what it feels like when you distort people's words.

To take one example, you stated that you do nothing to make the hated veggies more palatable, you're not concerned whether the kids like them or not, you just force them to eat.

For the most part, Yes.

It seems the only way you make it 'easier' for them is that the choice is between eating ☆unpalatable food and getting hit.

I'm a very good cook, so my food is palatable, they just have to eat. That's it and that's all.

I think you're proving my point about the man with the hammer seeing nothing but nails; hitting becomes the first resort, not the last. (☆I'm not suggesting the food served in your house is unpalatable, merely that if the kids hate it, then to them it is unpalatable.)

I understand, but I am not going to bend over to do food experiments, I would NEVER give my kids anything I couldn't eat. If I can eat it, so can they. If it is food they are allergic against, that's totally different. And stop saying "hitting" like I walk around slapping my kids every 5 min.

So do I. I think it's even more pathetic when the only response to verbal violence on the part of the child is physical violence on the part of the parent.

And I find it pathetic when I see parents trying to negotiate hours on end to a bratty child that just does whatever it wants, however it wants. I have kids coming into my office constantly and every single time, touching and grabbing stuff and trying to touch my iPad, when I have repeatedly told them time and time and week after week to NOT touch things that belong to them, the mother's are right there and I tell them to reign in their kids, NOTHING, one of my students little brother always runs around my office, goes into my private rest area, when I tell him NOT to go in there, the mother just says "I'm sorry and bows" and 5 min, later, the kid is running around again. The mother's talk to their kids, I talk to them, virtually NO results. My kids NEVER, EVER go anywhere and touch things that don't belong to them, why, because they would get popped. They are well behaved and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Makes me wonder why that particular problem hasn't been nipped in the bud much earlier.

So for me, I personally don't have a problem with MY kids. My students is an entirely different matter.

If we're bringing up anecdotal evidence of what works and what doesn't work, a neighbour of mine had a son a couple of years older than my daughter. Word had it that the father was 'strict', but the boy not only spoke back to his parents in public, he was constantly in trouble for bullying smaller kids - my daughter was the subject of his attentions on one occasion, we had the parents round at our house delivering gomen-nasai cakes and making the boy bow and ask forgiveness. Years later as a university student he was convicted of murdering two middle-aged women and is now serving a life sentence. (The case was covered by JT at the time). It came out at the trial that the father's 'strictness' involved frequent lashings with a leather belt.

Whatever, anyway, my kids don't go around bullying anyone, no one bullies them, they don't mouth off, they listen for the most part. Also, I don't give my kids a lashing. I give them a swat or a pop and that solves the problem, it works for me, every time.

But if you put your rapist relative forward as the dire consequences of not hitting, then I put this young man forward as the dire consequences of hitting.

I can't speak for that man's case, but I DO KNOW MY blood relative I know him and I think he should have gotten hit, and more than just once.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

It seems like you're admitting what is often said of those who use physical means of 'disciplining' children; they do it, not because it 'works' or the kids 'need' it or because it's 'the last resort' : but because it's the easy way.

Trust me, as with my students, I talked my a** off and I get nowhere. I do this every week to pretty much NO avail. But because I only have them a short time, I just put up with it. They are not my kids, I don't care, but I would never allow such behavior from my own kids.

Could it be that those stay-at-home mothers, not being the ones who 'pay the bills' etc., are stripped of authority over the kids by authoritarian, 'I am the boss' fathers? If 'I pay the bills, I make the rules' is the way things work, there's surely no reason why the kids shouldn't do just as they like; Mum is in no position to make the rules, and Dad isn't there to enforce them. Which brings us back to the unanswered question of what do you do to discipline the kids when you aren't there to give them a timely pop.

At that particular moment and time probably nothing, but later "IF" the negative behavior persists and the pep talk fails, give them a quick pop.

Why not, if it works so well every time? Wouldn't you be doing them a favour?

Why? Because they are NOT MY kids, I could care less when I am on the playground and some snot nosed kids act like obnoxious fools, NOT my responsibility, I ONLY have responsibility to MY own flesh and blood and my way of rearing my kids, which I never need to worry about.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@oikawa

I don't know why people don't just try talking to kids.

It doesn't always work, that's a fact. Some kids, no matter what you do or say, will never respond to a talking to or a timeout, I did, when I was a kid, my younger sister didn't its just that simple.

I've never seen an instance where I think spanking a child is a good way to go.

Maybe you haven't but for me and "some" others here on JT have seen it work.

If they don't understand what's wrong just make them stop.

I talk to them FIRST to try and make them stop and if they don't listen as a very last resort, they get spanked, problem solved.

A child is not "beign naughty" if they run into the road or if they don't eat their greens, they just don't know any better, and it would be much better to explain to them the dangers of roads or give them a reward for eating what you want them to than hitting them.

We really do have no hope of ending or criticizing violence of any kind if we use it with kids.

Most people that spank and discipline their kids do it, because they love them and want to protect them and to be upright citizens.

I think you are missing the point. I don't think most people are spanking their kids if they don't eat their greens or don't cross the road properly. I would never spank my kid for doing that. It just depends on the severity of what the child has done. For example, if the child curses the parents out or says "blank you" trash talking to you the same way they talk to the kids in the streets is one true good reason.

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

bass4funk

Some people do spank their kids if they don't cross the road properly though, as davinyoko just said. I agree most parents that do it are doing it because they love their kids but I believe there is always another way. It's difficult to argue specifics, almost impossible in other people's cases, but how often did your parents try time-outs with your sister? How soon did they give up? At what age? For doing what?

If there was any case when it would be justified for me it would also be like the case you described, swearing at parents for example, but again the age it happens and how's done is crucial. Until a certain level/age of maturity kids simply don't understand the world in the way adults do and a young kid swearing is completely different to someone messing with you in a bar. If they're doing it with knowledge of the situation and facts then I think those people and families have much more serious ingrained problems than just the usage of those words and I would imagine the kids would be of an age where a full scale fight would break out. If they don't understand what they're doing then a deprivation of certain privileges and treats for a certain time should be sufficient, but that would be for much younger kids than ones dliberately trash talking you.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

bfg4987

THe article does not cost you $25. I am sure with a little time and effort you could dig up research papers by various people. Sweden has banned spanking for over 30 years. Most people in Sweden don´t believe in spanking their kids. Seems like a cultural thing. In Japan I think most parents do believe in it as in USA. I have no intentions of spanking my kids. I think there are better ways to disciplining a child.

Maybe this will answer your questions, if not I´m sorry I can´t help you.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0145213499000216

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

bass4funk-

These are all your own personal opinions

There are plenty of studies showing that corporal punishment is Not a Good Thing. Try googling 'effects of corporal punishment'. It isn't only my personal opinion, though why my posting my own opinion here upsets you so much beats me. Doesn't JT provide this board for us to post our opinions?.

I don't judge you, you need to realize that.

You don't judge me for what, pray? Raising two fine, upstanding young citizens who are a credit to their father and me and who are both making a valuable and positive contribution to society, without hitting them?

the majority of people judging by this polling seem to not agree with you

There are lots of topics most people don't agree with me on. Doesn't mean I'm wrong. Many people doing the same thing (like crossing on a red light?) doesn't make it right.

we don't know how and what measures these parents used or went through in rearing their kids

We know they (you?) ended up hitting the kids on a regular basis, and justifying it to themselves as being 'necessary'.

letsberealistic -

Is hitting the very BEST way we can come up with to communicate to our kids that what they did is unacceptable and to encourage healthy behaviours?

If we concentrate more on the latter (encouraging healthy behaviours) there is naturally less of the former (bad behaviour). The hitters seem to focus more on what to do when a child misbehaves, to the detriment of teaching the child good behaviour in the first place.

If I can train my dog and cat using only positive methods, and get great results, why on earth would I come to the conclusion that the only way to get good results with my kids - whose upbringing (training) is way more important and carries way more weight - is to hit them?

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

@bfg4987

smacking the child with a crazed look in your eyes and walking away.

I never said that or imagined it.

There is nothing aggressive about proper spanking. My parents did not aggressively spank me, and I do not aggressively spank my children. You seem to be under the impression that spanking is

You are under the illusion that there is somehow, some way, a non-aggressive form of hitting another.There isn't. Hitting is hitting, and hitting is an aggressive, disrespectful and humiliating act towards another. You and other parents have wrongly, and dangerously convinced yourselves that it is okay.

The Global Initiative to End all Corporal Punishment of Children website states Sweden's anti-corporal punishment law; "Children are to be treated with respect for their person and individuality and may not be subjected to corporal punishment or any other humiliating treatment".

I was spanked as a child, and despite the fact I respect my father completely like any other child; he was wrong to ever hit me or my siblings - he did it because he didn't know what else to do. And though the tendency to hit children is buried within me, I will never hit my child, no matter what.

I would say to any child, "You have the right to be protected from all violence. Nobody, not even your mommy or daddy, should hit or hurt you."

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

You are under the illusion that there is somehow, some way, a non-aggressive form of hitting another.

You are under the impression that there is not.

Perhaps I should be more specific. When I say I was spanked, what happened was one of my parents would take the palm of their hand and pat me on the upper thigh. Little to no pain was involved. They only did so when I was very out of line and an immediate correction was necessary. I was not afraid of my parents, though I did fear them in the traditional use of the term implying respect. When they did this, they reminded me of my position, and that they were in charge. I assume you think this is wrong, so I won't even bother to ask.

The Global Initiative to End all Corporal Punishment of Children website states Sweden's anti-corporal punishment law; "Children are to be treated with respect for their person and individuality and may not be subjected to corporal punishment or any other humiliating treatment".

Good for Sweden. What rank are they in the world for suicide? Yeah, they have deeper-seeded psychological issues to deal with.

I was spanked as a child, and despite the fact I respect my father completely like any other child; he was wrong to ever hit me or my siblings

That's your prerogative as a parent. You can force your ideas on your own family, but you may not force your ideals on others. Also, you can stop saying things like "I'm not out to accuse you or any other parent who spanks their child of being bad parents," since it's clear from your tone and your other statements exactly what you think parents who spank their children are.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

@yabits

The extremist non-spanker will either be forced to concede that perhaps somewhere and someplace with some children, the carrying out of corporal punishment would actually be of benefit, and that to completely remove it from the options available to a parent is actually doing the child far more harm than good -- or they will stick with their extremist position to the very end. (Despite millions of testimonies to the contrary.)

I respect your opinion and you are entitled to it, but I don't agree with it, because there are testimonies that prove otherwise as well. It all depends on your situation.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Rules I've learned about spanking and discipline.

1.NEVER EVER strike your child in the face. 2.Never spank your child out of anger. 3.Make sure they understand that the spanking is the consequence of them doing wrong.

My perception is the first time a young child does something wrong let them go with a simple warning not to do it. If they do it again after the first warning, its time to talk to the seat of "wisdom".

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

The hitters tell us that 'spanking works for them'. They also say that spanking is a 'last resort', that it should be used 'when all else fails' and that some kids 'need to get spanked a lot'.

Sorry, but it doesn't add up. If spanking should only be used 'when all else fails', isn't that in itself an admission of failure? The child is being hit because the parent has failed with other methods (assuming other methods have been tried). And if a child 'needs to be spanked a lot' over a period of years, isn't that a pretty strong indication that the spanking isn't working? Why keep on doing something you find distressing when it obviously isn't working?

unless you take the extreme position that all violence is wrong no matter the circumstance

Chilling to think that anyone would consider 'all violence against a child is wrong no matter the circumstance' to be an 'extreme position'.

-1 ( +5 / -6 )

@frungy

Simple rule, simple logic. No anger, just a short sharp smack to the rear and and long explanation afterwards why they got smacked. ... and honestly, if my kid could choose I think they'd prefer another smack to the explanation.

Excellent analysis

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

@cleo

So why does the child see his hard-hitting parents as weak?

There could be many reasons.

Why doesn't he respect them even though they're doing their best to knock respect into him?

There could be genetic or a mental problem.

Could it be that the hitting isn't working?

It could or could it be that trying to rationalize with the child is not working either.

By the time a child is old enough to be facing problems with drugs and the like, his parents have already had well over a decade to see to it that he has the tools to deal with peer pressure and a dodgy environment.

Sometimes kids will turn out fine, like I did or screwd up like my sister who was out of control and rebellious.

If they haven't done that, it's failed parenting and those failed parents have no business punishing the child for their own shortcomings.

If that is indeed the case. But if they have a child that is hormonally bipolar or irrational and being diagnosed as a possible problem for society, then in that case, it's not the parents fault. That's just one example or some kids just don't give a fig, but some of you think or don't want to give the child ANY fault, it's impossible. That is totally absurd to even think that. You cannot come to just one conclusion that if the child doesn't listen, it's automatically the parents fault.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

@cleo

Please don't tell me you think it's a good idea to physically punish a person (child or not) for a genetic or mental disability.

I'm not. I'm just saying, that, that ca be a possibility as to why some kids behave so out of control, like ADD.

Neither is it the child's fault. Why hit him for a hormonal imbalance? Wouldn't a proper medical diagnosis and appropriate treatment be a better, more loving, more responsible way of dealing with the problem?

Yes, it would and if that doesn't work, after all that and the only thing that does work is spanking, what then, just don't use it, even though it works?

If it wasn't the parents who raised him to be a person who doesn't listen, who did?

Maybe the child was institutionalized or from an Orphanage. There are many facets to the possibilities as to why some kids are out of control.

We're not talking about medical cases clearly needing professional treatment, we're talking about ordinary little kids living with their ordinary parents in an ordinary environment.

In that case as I said, if the parent does everything by the book as you say and all else fails, then maybe a strike on the butt actually might do the trick.

The same with older kids and drugs, etc - by the time they reach that age, parents have had plenty of time to sort them out responsibly.

I have seen too many cases where the parents did everything right, I mean, everything and still some of my friends became junkies. Not buying that, not at all! Even if they are of age, when does the kid take responsibility for his/her own actions?

Put the parents on the right path, and the kids will follow.

I don't believe that, sometimes, but not always.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Triumvere - You're still looking at the issue in terms of finding different ways to punish kids. You're assuming that the child needs punishment. You're taking a reactive view of child-rearing; it's a view that's virtually going to guarantee that the child 'needs' spanking because the only tool the parent is arming himself with is different forms of punishment. Much like the man with a hammer who sees every problem as a nail.

Punishing a child for (like Davinyoko's 2-year-old biting the new baby) not being able to cope with circumstances beyond his or her control - circumstances that it is the parents' responsibility to control, and to prepare the child for - is a topsy-turvy way of looking at things.

I'm approaching things from a pure cost-benefit analysis: what tools do I have to solve the problem

Why not look for for tools to prevent the problem arising in the first place? The two-year-old could have been prepared for the appearance of the baby in a way that made the addition to the family a happy, positive event for the child, rather than the 'this baby is taking my parents' attention and affection away from me' situation that actually arose - that was then compounded by granny's slap. Even Gran's on the baby's side. What's the child to do? Just put up with the misery, and put up quietly? A cry for help should never be punished.

The problem with corporal punishment being seen as a 'last resort' is that it tends to become the first resort; why bother bothering with proactive strategies, when a quick slap seems to settle things, for the time being at least?

Could you describe a single situation where a spanking is the best strategy, where the child is not being punished for the shortcomings of the parent? Because i cannot think of a single one. I'm not talking about slapping a child's hand away from a hot stove, which isn't punishment but prevention, and even in that case is the result of the parent or caretaker failing to ensure that very small children cannot access dangerous objects, or failing to teach slightly older children not to touch dangerous objects.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

@ Cleo

I wholeheartedly support your position.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

@eigen implying beating a child is the only way to ensure they're not self-entitled, lol! This whole thread is sickening. I still resent the parent that hit me growing up, and it gave me nothing but issues. I attribute all of my positive qualities, discipline and restraint, to the parent that never put a finger on me.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

@cleo

In thirty years it never once happened, never showed any signs of happening, was never ever considered even remotely likely to happen. You may as well ask me what would I do if a whirlwind dropped a house from Kansas on my head.

Gotcha! So for even arguments sake, you don't want touch that question, even as a hypothetical. That basically answers my question.

My kids had plenty of logical sense instilled in them - some by talking, a lot more through day-to-day interaction and setting of good examples. It ensured that they didn't go off the deep end as you seem to fear your kids might do - despite being spanked?

So did 2 of my sisters, everything you just said, I can relate to. My parents did all that and more and yet, they both were a problem. Parents ensured everything, followed man's law and God's law and still nothing worked except for a spanking. Problem after that was solved and thereafter. Which goes to show, not everything you say will necessarily work.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

While hitting is classed as "hitting" the child, which could be in any part of the body. I have spanked...which is of course related to the backside. A location protected by fat and muscles. I would never ever condole hitting a child on any other part of their body.

The action of spanking, does not need to be painful. If your doing it to hurt your child then it is not done correctly. It is more of a mental discipline.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

Triumvere -

how likely is the girl to repeat that particular response to the problem I wonder? Or to use biting to deal with a future, unrelated problem? If the answer is less likely, then I think the punishment did its job.

She may not bite again. Or, she may not bite when an adult (notably Gran) is watching. She may find some other, less obvious, means of hurting the baby. Or she may just bury it all deep inside her. While she's suppressing her actions, her emotions towards the baby - and towards the parents who she sees as abandoning her for the newcomer - could turn into something much, much more difficult to deal with in later years. The more and longer a problem is suppressed, the more deep-rooted it becomes. So I'm sorry but No, the punishment did not do its job - unless your philosophy is to live only in the here and now, and the future be damned.

yabits -

The problem is the child's to resolve. Given the opportunity and freedom, the vast majority of young people will find the right resolution for themselves

Pray tell how you would expect the baby-biting two-year-old to resolve her problem by herself. How much 'opportunity and freedom' do you reckon she would need/should be given?

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Triumvere -

If by 'consequences' you mean physically punishing the child for the crime of feeling emotionally insecure at the age of two, then yes I would say that would do more harm than good. Maybe it goes against the grain of the 'bad acts must be punished' school of thought, but surely we need to ask ourselves what it is we are trying to achieve - an emotionally well-balanced, well-behaved child, or the personal satisfaction of righteously inflicting 'justice' and being able to say 'Well that taught her'.

My choice is the former, and in this particular instance I would say that physical punishment not only will not adequately solve the problem, it will exacerbate it. The child already feels that the parents and Gran love the baby more than her; hitting her merely confirms her feelings. Of course the child needs to be taught that hurting the baby (or anyone else) is wrong; but teaching her by hurting her is not the way to do it.

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Yabits -

a responsible parent would keep the biter away from the infant, or, if physical separation is made impossible by living circumstances, harnessing her mouth in such a way that she can't possibly harm anyone with it.

Wow. That is seriously scary.

For a two-year-old to resort to biting as an ongoing problem, I would wonder if there was something lacking in the relationship between parent and daughter prior to the arrival of the newborn.

Obviously there was. A definite lack of preparing the toddler to accept the newcomer. As you say, resentment against a new baby is common, and the parents should be aware of this. It's their responsibility to do all they can to help the older child through the experience, starting way, way before any actual aggression towards the baby starts.

bass4funk-

You think going around slapping two-year-olds teaches is a good thing, that's your opinion.

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I think you misunderstood me.

I understood you perfectly. Read what I wrote again.

The point is that spanking at best does not work, and at worst is harmful.

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one thing practically shouts out to me in the long diatribe of the people who have decided that their way of parenting is superior to all others: "Thou dost protest too much."

Yup, thou dost.

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Other kids are absolute hooligans

How did they get to be hooligans?

When my dad gave me a clip round the ear when I was a kid I didn't think "OK I can now go and give other kids a clip round the ear."

But you did grow up to think it was OK to clip your own kids round the ear.

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I got smacked as a kid.

My family were very close, very loving. My Dad is a gentle, even tempered guy who gave a healthy amount of time for us. My Mother was more emotional and prone to outbursts when frustrated or angry. Not aggressive, but a more volatile nature.

The rules were always very clear to me as a kid and I knew the expectations were high. I knew if I was doing the wrong thing, and I knew that if I pushed far enough, I would get smacked.

Looking back now, I'm glad they did. It was never a beating, it was one or two sharp smacks that would stop me in my tracks and make me realise I had gone too far. I certainly don't resent them for it, and I knew they didn't like having to do it. They would always come to me later, when things had calmed down, and explain why it had happened.

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My Mum used to hit us quite regularly. Don't do as you're told - smack. Talk back - smack. Take too long eating dinner - smack. Get your clothes dirty - smack. We were totally inured to it, it meant nothing, it had no effect on us. If it happened, it happened. Shrug of the shoulders. I wasn't a bad kid, but if I played up, I played up with my Mum. I talked back to my Mum way, way more than I ever talked back to my Dad.

My Dad never hit us. Before he ever got angry with us, he got disappointed. If he got angry - we knew from his face, his voice - we knew we'd gone too far. I won't speak for my brothers, but I know I tried hard not to disappoint him. I wanted his approval, and when I got it, it made me a lot happier than just not being hit by Mum ever did. Honey catches more flies than vinegar.

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@cleo

Sorry, but all normal healthy two-year-olds can be stubborn, it comes with the territory. Are you seriously suggesting that a normal healthy adult with his wits about him is no match for a toddler??

He doesn't have to, nor should he. However, if the child is stubborn as I said before as in the case of my sisters, as a last resort, a good pop, problem solved. I was 9 at the time and I saw how quickly they learned adapted and changed their attitude. Bottom line: it worked.

Oikawa asked you what 'what if?' meant: What could a 2 year-old do that would require a last resort solution? Your only reply is that it depends. Depends on what? Can you describe a specific situation in which you would feel that slapping or spanking a toddler was the best course of action? Cos for the life of me I cannot imagine a single one.

Oh, NO! I am not going to go there with you. You are something else. I asked you previously about a possible hypothetical scenario and you gave me NO answer, NOW you are asking me a question that you want me to answer, but you don't want to answer mine? Because you feel uncomfortable or are unwilling to answer my question, you find that is justified, but are in complete shock and astounded when I don't answer yours???

Tell you what since I am a fair guy, you answer my previous question and I promise to answer both of you guys. I PROMISE!

The point is that spanking at best does not work, and at worst is harmful.

6 kids, we got spanked, all of us. My mom had 13 siblings, they got spanked (a lot) and they are all successful and professionals and all fine, NO trauma, side effects or lasting recurring nightmares, built up issues PTSD. 110% it worked.

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You realize that some parents these days never allow their children to have sugar

No sweeties for the little kids?

Now that's what I call cruel.

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No. No and NO. That's the way to tell PEOPLE that what they are doing needs to stop, be thought about or changed. NO VIOLENCE. We don't hit anyone else in society, why hit the weakest, youngest? It's pathetic to hit children.

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Smacking and violence are different.

If you Dad punches you in the head as a form of punishment, that's violence. If he smacks you on the rump shaker to remind you you are being a clown, it's different.

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@Tama: Rationalize away. Violence IS violence.

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Cecil John Howell -

if the creator endowed us with pain AND uses it as a deterrent, I think it is a legitimate means of instruction our kids.

Leaving aside the whole creator thing (sorry, don't buy it...) the difference between learning not to touch a hot pot because it hurts and learning not to misbehave because it earns you a parental slap is that touching the hot pot always hurts, 100% of the time, while the slap only comes if you get found out. If the child finds the undesirable behaviour to be enjoyable enough he'll continue to do it (though perhaps not in front of his parents) because the plus (in his eyes) outweighs the possible minus if he gets caught.

It's the same principle as a driver speeding; go over the speed limit 10 times (because you're in a hurry, you like the thrill, you want to show off, whatever reason) and get caught and fined only once, and you're much more likely to speed again, because you're pretty sure you aren't going to get caught; and if you are caught, the fine is short, sharp, soon over, soon forgotten. And your mates will probably commiserate with you, too.

Discipline is done out of love and never out of anger.

Of course. And discipline doesn't have to mean hitting your kids. I never hit my kids (apart from the couple of lapses I've mentioned before, of which I'm ashamed), yet my mil had no qualms in telling her friends that her grandkids had a strict disciplinarian for a mother. And she was right.

bass4funk -

as a last resort, a good pop, problem solved. I was 9 at the time and I saw how quickly they learned adapted and changed their attitude. Bottom line: it worked.

But I thought you said they needed repeated spankings? Either you're changing your story, or bottom line, it didn't work because they kept on needing to be spanked.

You are something else. I asked you previously about a possible hypothetical scenario and you gave me NO answer, NOW you are asking me a question that you want me to answer, but you don't want to answer mine? Because you feel uncomfortable or are unwilling to answer my question, you find that is justified, but are in complete shock and astounded when I don't answer yours???

No, I'm not in shock or astounded at all. I will be both of those things when you come up with a description of a situation in which a reasonable person would consider it OK to hit a two-year-old. (And, yours wasn't a possible hypothetical scenario by any stretch of the imagination bar yours).

But in the meantime, I'l play along with you. In your totally unrealistic, never-in-a-million-years-gonna-happen scenario of one of my kids pulling a knife on me, what would I do? Well, the first thing of course would be to get the knife off him/her to ensure that no one got hurt. Exactly how that would happen would depend on the circumstances - where it happened, who else was there, what state the child was in, how old he/she was at the time - so exactly how I have no idea, but that would be the number one priority. After that my primary concern would be to get the child professional help, because either I've completely failed him/her and my childrearing efforts have not done him/her any good, or (more likely) he/she is mentally ill and needs medical treatment which I am not qualified to give. Slapping or spanking a child already in an elevated state of emotional turmoil (which he/she would need to be, to be waving a knife around) would be like pouring oil on flames. Not a good idea.

OK, now show me yours. What kind of 'last resort' scenario would ever make it OK to hit a toddler?

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Yongyang

@Tama: Rationalize away. Violence IS violence.

It's not as simple as that, which is why this debate rages and is ongoing.

Violence is violence, sure, but parental discipline is undertaken with supreme love as it's backdrop and with the clear objective of teaching the kids to be better humans who understand boundaries, limitations and expectations. Sometimes, harsh lessons are required to achieve that. I seriously doubt that many parents like doing it at all, and yet so many make the calculated decision that the benefits outweigh the negatives. So, I think your attempts at reducing it to a basic equation are over simplistic.

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Your personal anecdotes prove nothing other than either your luck, or will to win an argument. Not everyone single person whose gotten molested has ptsd or massive issues either, you must realize. So really, that proves nothing...

Neither anyone else's, it's all subjective and how you see what's best for your child. I had excellent and I mean excellent parents and grandparents. Why you bring molestation into the discussion is beyond me, but whatever... So if you never have to use spanking, of course, you shouldn't, it's just another tool like everything else, that proof enough.

As I said earlier, my personal anecdote is much different from yours. I did indeed have side effects.

And I and my siblings, especially my sisters didn't.

@cleo

And discipline doesn't have to mean hitting your kids. I never hit my kids (apart from the couple of lapses I've mentioned before, of which I'm ashamed), yet my mil had no qualms in telling her friends that her grandkids had a strict disciplinarian for a mother. And she was right.

And that is something that worked for you and that is GREAT, but some of us had to and it was the best decision. So as a third party seeing my sister getting swatted over the years, I thought, she brought it upon herself and she laughs and also agrees.

But I thought you said they needed repeated spankings? Either you're changing your story, or bottom line, it didn't work because they kept on needing to be spanked.

I'm not changing my story, you just want to see what you want to see, with all the tools that was used, kids often have a short attention span, again, everyone is different, so sometimes, she needed to be reminded and once she got struck a light when on and everything was back on track. So Yes, it did work, the ultimate, end result of what my parents wanted and what I wanted, yes. Cleo, you think you are so smart,then why must we tell kids to constantly brush their teeth or wash their hands...with SOAP. After a good and healthy decent conversation, they should know that they need to do these things and yet, kids will cut corners and either forget or get too lazy to do these things. I don't know how many times, I have to constantly tell the kids at my school to use SOAP when they finish using the toilet, this is just an example. Whether you need to reinforce by constantly repeating something be it verbal and yes, sometimes physical, means basically, by your logic, nothing works if we are to followt your analogy. If you make soap, it means nothing if you just serve it with the bouillon ONLY, you need to put hearty veggies and use a huge selection of spices, it all needs to come together and you need to use whatever you have to make it taste good. Basically, it's a combination of ingredients that need to used to make it work. You can leave the celery out if you want, but I choose to use it, it gives it a bit more flavor. Whatever works for you.

No, I'm not in shock or astounded at all. I will be both of those things when you come up with a description of a situation in which a reasonable person would consider it OK to hit a two-year-old. (And, yours wasn't a possible hypothetical scenario by any stretch of the imagination bar yours).

No, I'm not in shock or astounded at all. I will be both of those things when you come up with a description of a situation in which a reasonable person would consider it OK to hit a two-year-old. (And, yours wasn't a possible hypothetical scenario by any stretch of the imagination bar yours).

But in the meantime, I'l play along with you. In your totally unrealistic, never-in-a-million-years-gonna-happen scenario of one of my kids pulling a knife on me, what would I do?

You sound like you are pouting as if I'm twisting your arm. I just asked you a simple question, the other tirade, you could have left out. It was totally a waste of typing.

Well, the first thing of course would be to get the knife off him/her to ensure that no one got hurt.

But what if the situation went from bad to worse and someone got stabbed?

Exactly how that would happen would depend on the circumstances - where it happened, who else was there, what state the child was in, how old he/she was at the time - so exactly how I have no idea, but that would be the number one priority. After that my primary concern would be to get the child professional help, because either I've completely failed him/her and my childrearing efforts have not done him/her any good, or (more likely) he/she is mentally ill and needs medical treatment which I am not qualified to give.

Interesting, so you would give yourself all the blame, even if you gave it your best? It is humanly impossible for a child to be bad. Every child or better, every teen is inherently good, no matter what, if the child fails, it is always your fault, no matter what, Kids have a green light and are totally absolved of any possible wrong doing. So if your kids are over 25 years and commit a murder, then what you are saying is, ultimately, it was your responsibility to nurture and guide the child and talking and rationalizing with the kids, now they are upstanding adults and yet, one of them commits the worst crime of all. You basically, failed that child and you were a bad parent. That's pretty much what you are saying?

Slapping or spanking a child already in an elevated state of emotional turmoil (which he/she would need to be, to be waving a knife around) would be like pouring oil on flames. Not a good idea.

I agree, but if it comes to that, then you might have to really get physical in order to get control of the situation.

OK, now show me yours. What kind of 'last resort' scenario would ever make it OK to hit a toddler?

Cleo, I'm not like you, I'm not going to proclaim to the world I'm the best human on this planet and that I'm better than anyone else or know it better, I'll keep it very short, ill do whatever it takes to avoid getting a pop on the, how do you guys say...bum? But only as a final result, so yes, a pop on the bottom I think depending on the situation is fine, a beat down, absolutely not. That's it, short and to the point, I'm not for splitting hairs.

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@ illsayit -- Thank you for saying it!

Back in the mid-60s, when I was in my teens, I was in a waiting room -- waiting for my accordion lesson -- and happened to read an article in Reader's Digest about some 11-year-old kid that some newspaper hired to be an advice columnist - for parents. I don't remember the kid's name, so I'll call him "Kenny."

After all these years, I'll never forget on of the sample letters: "Dear Kenny: We are at our wits end with our boy. He refuses to obey us [yada, yada]... even after we've threatened to spank him. Please help!"

Kenny's advice: "Why don't you try carrying out one of your threats?"

Side note: Yes. Accordion. Years of it. I consider that a worse form of parental abuse than any spanking I ever got. Polkas. Lady of Spain. Forced to watch Myron Floren on Lawrence Welk on Saturday nights. More polkas. (If I only knew about Cajun and Tejano music at the time.)

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allsayit -

are you saying you were hit, and you were messed up because of that?

No, I'm saying Mum used slaps and spankings that had little effect, Dad didn't and got better discipline out of us. I think we would have listened to Mum more - and she would have enjoyed being a parent more - if she hadn't been so quick to hit. But that was the way she was raised, and as we've seen on this thread people who are hit as kids tend to want/expect to hit their own kids in turn. If I'm messed up - and I don't think I am, no more than most other folk at least - I've done the messing-up myself after becoming an adult.

your version of an ideal parent is ....

There is no 'ideal' parent. We all just do the best we can. Please don't try to put words into my mouth.

You are though, willing to have teach and install a somewhat scattered and not ideal reasoning of sex onto your children. Or you are suggesting that abstinence is also something you teach your children when they get older? And that has absolutely no reflection on the love you and your husband or wife havefor each other. Or that taking drugs, or manipulating your body by means of well, from anything to putting on a mask to complete destruction of your bodily parts, is , well okay.

What?? I don't know where any of that comes from. What on earth are you taking about?

yabits -

He refuses to obey us [yada, yada]... even after we've threatened to spank him.

SuperNanny will tell you that threats are never a good idea.

letsberealistic -

How can you discipline and guide a child's behaviour without raising your hand to them?

By setting a good example. By being pro-active rather than reactive, by talking to them about things before they become a problem, eg., in the case of the baby-biting toddler, by preparing the older child well in advance so that she can welcome the newcomer as a new and loved member of the family rather than resenting him as an unwanted interloper. By making tasks easy and fun, so that the child gets pleasure out of doing what his parents want him to do. By being generous with praise (appropriately) so that a link between behaving well and feeling good about himself establishes itself in the child's brain. By respecting the child and teaching him to respect himself and others.

The list goes on... I can see why some think it's easier and quicker just to get straight down to spanking.

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There is no 'ideal' parent. We all just do the best we can. Please don't try to put words into my mouth.

You've left no room for more words to be placed within your mouth. You've made clear your opinions on parents who spank their children - namely, that they are bad parents or would be better parents if they did not spank.

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You've made clear your opinions on parents who spank their children - namely, that they are bad parents or would be better parents if they did not spank.

I think it would be better if they didn't spank, yes. But that doesn't mean that simply not spanking makes a person an ideal parent. The parent who doesn't care what the kid does, the parent who is too busy texting to watch the kid, the parent who just can't be bothered - none of them may spank their child, but that doesn't make them ideal parents, or even adequate parents.

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Why not open up a discussion on methods of disciplining and guiding children apart from spanking?

Because such a course might be perceived as a supposition that there is something inherently wrong with spanking.

We have all these great and experienced parents discussing whether to spank children or not and wasting time in a debate that will achieve nothing.

When a salient point is made, nobody expects those holding differing opinions to change their minds immediately. There is absolutely nothing wrong with anyone providing insights on non-corporal punishment methods -- but the suggestion that all debate on whether to spank or not to spank be ceased seems inappropriate to me. Trying to shut down a discussion because it "seems a waste of time" to them is one of those techniques that is disrespectful to others.

One poster has mentioned an "authority" called "SuperNanny." Thinking about another "authority" Who many parents have tried to follow for centuries caused me to wonder if, at the root of this notion of physically striking another person's body being always wrong, there is actually the belief that each individual is a god unto themselves. To be honest, it seems as though some have adopted the "no-strike" policy as though it were a religious precept.

There is a fundamental truth which reveals the complete fallacy behind the policy. There is a representative whom many try to follow who once said if one's right hand or one's eye causes one to go wrong, it is better to cut off the hand or to pluck out the eye than for the whole person to become corrupt and destroyed. The important truth conveyed in that symbology is this: the person is not their eye, or their right hand, or their buttocks, or their body.

There will be those who will want to take that and run with it in a completely unintended direction. This question should stop them short: Is it possible to strike a person's body with unconditional love? For those who believe that the real person is not the body, then it could very will mean that unconditional love for the real person may, on occasion, demand a physical intervention. Those who believe that a person IS the body rather than a person HAS a body will not accept this.

The body can and should be respected and guarded as a vessel containing something much greater than the body, but not at the price where obsessing over the shell takes precedence over the growth and well-being of the real person. In my experience, unconditional love can only grow with wisdom and discernment -- which means a person's own spiritual growth. I find it very interesting that, even in a non-violent path like Buddhism, enlightenment of a student has very often come after a severe physical blow by a master.

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@cleo

What made you think you 'had to'?

Because, when everything else failed, the spanking worked, bottom line.

Constantly? Really? Make it a game and little kids are eager to brush their teeth and wash their hands, show Mummy/Daddy/Nana how good they are at it, and bask in the glow of the praise they get. As they get older they no longer need the praise, but the good feeling remains and they brush their teeth/wash their hands because it's become second nature to them, and makes them feel good.

Well, thanks for shining the light on me. Now I know, I don't need to praise my employees Anymore!! Since my workers are not children anymore, I don't need to praise them. They should do their jobs and they had better not expect anything in return, becuase they know, they have to work, but my job is not to go to my staff be nice to them, the work ethic that they received from their parents as children should be enough. They don't need to hear anything, but work. Thanks again for your insight

Or you can turn it into a chore and obligation by nagging at them so that they only do it when they have to, when they're told to, and don't do it whenever they think they can get away with not doing it. Then I suppose when they end up with caries from not brushing their teeth, you can give them a spanking for not listening to you.

So for you, it's about giving the kids a choice. When it's time to go to bed, there is no democracy, when its time to go to bed, get ready do what you need to do and go. I don't care if the kids see I as a chore. You shouldn't nag your child, but your child can basically, toss you the finger. So in that instance, I should care about their feelings. Whatever!

That's right. No one is going to come back for second helpings of soup, no matter how nutritious, if it tastes bad.

But at the same time, you eat what comes on the table, if you don't, you will have to deal with the consequences.

I answered your question. Whether you like the answer or not is another matter. I see you have not been able to answer mine. When is it OK to spank a two-year-old?

I did answe your question, if the child doesn't listen after all else fails, a pop on the bottom ( or two ) usually did the trick for me or most people that I know personally. Again, is it ok, IMO, Yes, if all else fails, a pop is fine, a beat, absolutely NOT.

Then we're no longer talking about disciplining a child, we're talking about a criminal incident.

Kids do kill too, it happens.

<You're the one who said he wanted to talk about 'average, everyday normal' people, not special cases.

But they happen, you can't rule that out. Don't think, it could never happen to me. Anything in this world is possible, ANYTHING!

The majority of kids, no matter how they are raised, do not go around waving knives at people.

That depends on where you live. With all due respect, where my cousin grew up, seeing kids with knives was a common thing. Also, where I lived, we sometimes would have to for our protection and I grew up in an affluent area.

So let's try to keep the conversation real, shall we?

Oh, I always do.

So, what would you do if your child pointed a knife at you?

That depends on the threat and the rationale of the child. I would try to calm the kid to put the knife down, but if it escalates and the kid is ready to hurt me, I will use ANY necessary force to neutralize the situation, to ensure my safety.

You seem to think it's a real possibility. Assuming you were able to take it off him without anyone getting hurt, would you give him a 'last resort' spanking and hope that put everything 'back on track'?

If it got to that point or level of a concern, the kid would not get a spanking, but a solid ***kicking, again, IF it got to that level. Just keeping it real.

Or would you think maybe this was a much bigger problem than a simple spanking can sort out?

Absolutely. From that point, I would make sure, the kid would never want to threaten someone again, again!

If I take responsibility for raising the child, then I bear some responsibility for the end result.

Yes, "some". I agree.

By the time a child reaches his or her teens, an awful lot of water has gone under the bridge - waters that, in the early years at least, are (or should be) almost totally controlled by the parents.

But NOT always. Some of that water was held back by a dam. But sometimes, the parents gave it their all and the kid is just a loser. It happens all the time.

In the immortal words of the poet Philip Larkin, They f### you up, your mum and dad/They may not mean to, but they do./They fill you with the faults they had/And add some extra, just for you.

Personally, I agree more with the late Bernie Mac.

Duh. Ever hear the plaintive cry, 'Where did we go wrong?'?

Some people might say that, but not all. I have a cousin who just finished serving 6 years for rape, it was a plea bargain case. He was originally looking at 25 years. The kid was 25 at the time. His parents NEVER said, where did we go wrong? His parents did EVERYTHING for him and they were so kind and loving, good home, text book all the way. My cousin had a great job, going to a great University and messed it all up. His dad (my uncle) didn't visit him for the first 2 years. Almost no one in my family had sympathy for him. Why? Because, he knew right from wrong, his parents moved into a pristine neighborhood to make sure, the boy didn't have to worry about going off the deep end. He's out now, been 2 years now. He's trying to rebuild his life, he is a convicted felon and is a registered sex offender now. Finding work, is very difficult, but he learned his lesson the hard way, really hard way. But NOT once while he was incarcerated did his father look sad or blamed himself. Quite the opposite, prison might have been better and safer place for him, because his father wanted to put his foot up his....

Do you see that as being the same as a disciplinary slap? Because I see them as totally different.

That depends on how YOU tend to perceive the situation.

But what situation?? What could a two-year-old possibly do that you think you would have no recourse but to hit him?

I already outlined it out for you earlier.

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That young person is mentally ill. You really think that striking him is going to cure him?

Friends of my parents had a mentally disabled son as well as a swimming pool in their backyard. The son developed an enjoyment for pushing in kids from behind that he saw standing near the pool's edge. Until the time he pushed in a kid who could not swim who happened to stop get something near the edge of the deep end of the pool.

His mother striking him did not cure his mental illness. But he understood enough to never, ever to push anyone in the pool again.

As an animal lover, I can understand how it might make the striker feel good, but...

That comes as a bolt right out of the blue. And perhaps this is at the heart of why some people will not strike: Because they are ashamed and guilty about the perverse pleasure it gives them. I would have never have imagined it, but it is indeed very possible. Yes, such parents would do well never to use corporal punishment without first getting their own problems worked out. (And there are some serious problems there.)

Personally, I have always felt very sad and somewhat revolted when circumstances dictated that a physical response was the necessary one. I could never imagine how anyone could "feel good" about it. Any more than a doctor would "feel good" about having to amputate an infected limb of her own or of any other kid.

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what a question! 当たり前体罰、 jang! jang!

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jumpultimatestars- excuse me, but how exactly is it lazy? I love my parents and frankly it is insulting that you insinuate that their parenting was lazy. They made sure all of use finished college, had a variety of hobbies, maintained composure in public while still letting us have our fun. That's far from lazy I would say. Needless to say, I deserved every whack to the thigh - we learned our lessons good after that.

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@Tokiyo

I firmly agree! You probably have the utmost respect for your parents and turned out just fine. Without suffering ANY PTSD or the like, I assume.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Please Japan. Don't be like Canada and try to reason with words. Sometimes a nice whack gets the job done. East Asia's sense of discipline is why they are succeeding and why Canada isn't.

Young people talking back to their elders is non existent in korean and japanese culture. A sense of discipline and hierarchy is probably one of the best aspects I just love about japanese and korean culture.

-1 ( +2 / -4 )

If you need to stop the child "in the moment", can't you just pick them up and take them away?

Of course, and this will work with many very young people. Some, however, may persist in behaviors which threaten to injure others or themselves. Something more dramatic may need to be communicated.

At the moment I'm not able to imagine any situation in which "striking them" would be the necessary way to stop them in the moment. Can you give any examples?

Stopping them in the moment is one of the two main reasons for striking them. The other one is communicating to them that the normal routine just "picking them up and taking them away" has failed. Their persistent refusal to heed a certain warning has to be dealt with. If striking them corrects the situation, it has succeeded.

After safely removing the child from whatever awful thing they were doing/ about to do, why NOT concern yourself with what motivated them??

I will definitely concern myself with what motivated them but, as an adult, dealing with the behavior comes first. But make no mistake: My concern for what might motivate someone does not cross over into prying questions and the attempt to manipulate them through their psyche. That's crossing a much more serious boundary. The young person may not be mature enough to have developed genuine respect for things, and that is why fear of consequences has to be an effective substitute until they grow into respect. But that does not mean that I get to disrespect them in the meantime. On the contrary, they will learn respect faster once they see and understand what genuine respect towards them feels like.

Only in an atmosphere of trust and respect will the young person be able to confide in things that might be driving them to commit the acts which require correction. But they get to choose whether to confide it or not. One might think that striking someone would undermine that, to which I would respond, yes striking someone inappropriately or through anger would likely do that. But if the young person has been told the limits and the consequences, and the adult has made good and fair on the prediction, it will serve to increase the child's trust that, while the world can be scary, they do have some control over things. It's an important thing to realize, made more significant by the fact that they've realized it on their own.

Some people feel that a child comes into the world like an empty cup or a blank slate that the parent has to fill or write upon. I disagree. In my view and my experience, the child is an independent person who given freedom and respect, has a chance to grow into the unique person they truly are. When I had to reflect on unconditional love, I had to accept that course. Therefore, when appropriate, I chose to use a quick physical correction to communicate that a boundary had been broken, rather than up the ante by trying to pry into the other person's motivations -- a much more personal, intimate boundary.

Prying into motivations would be appropriate IF the person really has serious psychological problems and may be crying out for help. But what gets communicated is the basic message that the adult does not have the faith that the young person is able to work out their inner life for themselves. And that lack of faith will often be correctly perceived as a lack of respect. I have tremendous faith that most kids can work out their own drives and motivations, and part of that working out means asking adults they have come to trust and respect. They are tremendous natural learners. I would never trust the well-meaning adult who carries their own phobia about physical correction and who has opted instead for the psychological approach.

Always keeping in mind that the physical correction is rarely, if ever, the first option.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Violence should only be used as self defence. Do not teach children that hitting is ok when someone annoys you or does something you thgnk is wrong.

-1 ( +3 / -3 )

jumpultimatestars- that is alot to assume about me. Of course if my child were well behaved, I would not have to resort to giving them a little swat. Please don't assume that I am automatically out to hit my children. I have not passed any judgement on your method yet all you do is pass judgement on me. Please don't talk to me like I am some serious concern to children. That is such an unfair judgment on your part. As someone who has had experience with such punishment, it seems I am doing a better job at not passing accusatory judgements about how others raise their children. Think about that.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

@cleo, you are dishing out advise all over the place on how to and not to discipline kids. Again to take your advise into proper perspetive, please tell us about yourself and how sucessful you are (or your kids are) in life. No need for a name or anything that can identify you). simply if you are the father of Ghandi, then please enlighten us how to raise more of them. If as a resutl of your ideas you have accomplished much with your life, then your advise/ideas are carry significant weight.

However, if you are just an average guy livng an average life (or below), then the premise of your advise (corrections, comments, whatever you would like to call it) is on shaky ground indeed.

PS: ad·vice - Opinion about what could or should be done about a situation or problem. Recommendation as to appropriate choice of action

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

@cleo

?? When did I mention honour? Or even honor?

Meaning, it is the honorable thing to do whatever it is in your power not to strike a child, I told you, of course, until a certain point.

And you can either force them into submission, or you can make obedience easy for them and you. So why choose the harder path?

I don't make it harder, I am very nice and diplomatic about the rules and make it very easy for My kids, they think, I'm too lovey dovey, but when they don't they do get forced, I don't see a problem with that. So as long as they are obedient, the path is easy, if they are not, then I WILL make it easier for them to comply. I'm a very simple man.

And if they don't you'll hit them? Mealtimes in your house must be a load of fun.

Don't have to, when they see my face, they usually eat up...everything. Now that's a load of fun.

I'm not the one pushing veggies down unwilling kids' throats....

That's NOT what I was talking about, we covered that. I was talking about your attitude in thinking that your way of raising is the more appropriate way of dealing with kids and I tell you, for you it might be the optimum, but not everyone shares your views.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

I was talking about making it easier for the kids. Seriously.

It seems like you're admitting what is often said of those who use physical means of 'disciplining' children; they do it, not because it 'works' or the kids 'need' it or because it's 'the last resort' : but because it's the easy way.

"I pay the bills, lights and I make the rules."

many of these mother's just aren't strict enough and let the kids do whatever they want,

Could it be that those stay-at-home mothers, not being the ones who 'pay the bills' etc., are stripped of authority over the kids by authoritarian, 'I am the boss' fathers? If 'I pay the bills, I make the rules' is the way things work, there's surely no reason why the kids shouldn't do just as they like; Mum is in no position to make the rules, and Dad isn't there to enforce them. Which brings us back to the unanswered question of what do you do to discipline the kids when you aren't there to give them a timely pop.

I would NEVER hit other people's kids

Why not, if it works so well every time? Wouldn't you be doing them a favour?

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Neither my Japanese wife nor I have ever hit, struck, spanked our child yet. We haven't ruled it out, but so far we haven't ever had to. Just yelling at them doesn't help, but a stern talking-to is enough almost all of the time. If nothing else works, telling them the "oni" is coming works wonders.

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

if the child curses the parents out or says "blank you" trash talking to you the same way they talk to the kids in the streets is one true good reason (to inflict violence on the child)

If your child has been raised to curse you out or use expletives, or talk to other kids outside in a way you would not want them to speak, before you lash out with your hand I think you need to think hard about how you got yourselves into this situation in the first place. It's not a good idea to hit the kid because of your own child-raising mistakes.

Kids do not grow up cursing out their parents unless they are following their parents' example. If you don't want your kids to curse, don't use swear-words in your own speech. If they pick up a bad word outside and try using it at home, explain to them why they shouldn't use it again. (The reason should not be Because I'll hit you if you do)

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

Not every parent had a child-raising negative experience.

Having your kid curse you sounds like a pretty negative experience to me.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

Kids are chronically overstimulated. That is why they need ways to center themselves in a frenetic world. If parents practice some form of self-development, their children will grow up in a healthier, more relaxed and aware environment.

Over the past 20 years, a growing body of research clearly indicates that children who have experienced physical punishment tend to be more aggressive toward parents, siblings, peers and, later, spouses, and are more likely to develop antisocial behaviour.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/02/120206122447.htm

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

you seem to think that you know EVERYONE else's method as being wrong

There are lots of methods, granted. I do not believe any loving parent enjoys hitting a child. So if you can raise the child joyfully and successfully without resorting to violence, why would anyone choose to use corporal punishment? That's what I don't understand.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

We are dealing with complex issues. The trend however is that more and more countries are banning corporal punishment. In these countries spanking your child is illegal.

Good for those countries. What is right for them is not necessarily right for everyone.

Thank you, Yabits, for stating the point more eloquently than I could.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

@honest

Rules I've learned about spanking and discipline.

1.NEVER EVER strike your child in the face. 2.Never spank your child out of anger. 3.Make sure they understand that the spanking is the consequence of them doing wrong.

My perception is the first time a young child does something wrong let them go with a simple warning not to do it. If they do it again after the first warning, its time to talk to the seat of "wisdom".

Hit the nail right on the head. You just summed it all up!

@jump

So primitive, to raise a hand against a child...

That's your opinion, but beating a child for no reason, I'm totally against.

I began by typing a well-reasoned, logical post on the rise, evolution and statistics of raising a child exclusively through compassion and tangible consequence rather than by strings of torment or fear for your marionette.

You can't because, it is a subjective issue. Every person knows what's good or what works best for their children.

But I realized that if you can't come to the true conclusion on your own, you simply don't have the want/ will/ capability to, and any such words on my part would be wasted... So instead I typed this. If you have the will, do the research.

You can't. Each to his own.

The hitters tell us that 'spanking works for them'. They also say that spanking is a 'last resort', that it should be used 'when all else fails' and that some kids 'need to get spanked a lot'.

Yes, if ALL else fails.

Sorry, but it doesn't add up.

To you, perhaps.

If spanking should only be used 'when all else fails', isn't that in itself an admission of failure?

No, it means in many ways that often the child will not yield for anything, wants to go its own way and will resist any attempts by the parents to follow any rules. Not an admission of failure, but often an unwillingness on the child's part to adhere to the parents rule. I love how you liberals never want to blame the children for anything.

The child is being hit because the parent has failed with other methods (assuming other methods have been tried).

Or the child is being hit because the child simply views the parent as weak or just doesn't respect the parent for a multitude of reasons, be it drugs, their peers, environment etc.

And if a child 'needs to be spanked a lot' over a period of years, isn't that a pretty strong indication that the spanking isn't working?

If its done maliciously and constantly, for that length of time, then I would tend to agree with you.

Why keep on doing something you find distressing when it obviously isn't working?

If it gets to that point where nothing works, even spanking, then both parents and kids should seek serious counseling.

Chilling to think that anyone would consider 'all violence against a child is wrong no matter the circumstance' to be an 'extreme position'.

If its done in a controlled environment and done to get the child back on track and as a deterrent of a possible downward spiral to the point where the child becomes a more serious delinquent and all other possible alternatives have been exhausted, then by all means, spanking should be considered as a possible option.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

As I said before, you should really never hit a child under 3. Cleo took this to mean that I thought it was OK to hit young babies

...and then you go on to tell us a story in which you approve 100% of an old lady hitting a toddler. In that story you seem to see the 2-year-old as a villain deserving of punishment; I see it as a case of parents (and granny) failing to prepare the child properly for the new baby. The child biting the baby was not the problem but a symptom of the real problem - a young child struggling alone to adjust, not given what she needs to cope with the new addition to the family. And the swat on the bottom did nothing to change that situation. So essentially, she got hit because the parents failed to be proactive in handling the situation. And will probably 'need' to be hit again, because nothing has changed, the problem remains.

How to deal with this kind of situation? Be proactive, not reactive. Start early, when the new baby is just a bump in Mummy's tummy. Tell the child about the baby, describe what will happen when the baby arrives, get the child happy and excited about the prospect of becoming a big sister or big brother. Make the new arrival a positive experience for the child. Let the child know that you want another baby because she (the older child) has made your lives so happy. Boil it down to 'Your parents don't have time for you because of the new baby', and you're just asking for trouble.

Your second story is also a story of failed parenting - you tell us the parents were useless - but you immediately tell us that it was the boy who was 'trouble' and 'mean'.

Some of the children raised in the manner Cleo and others speak of were very well behaved and kind, but the majority were not.

I very much doubt the majority of children you saw were raised in the positive manner I suggest; I think you're simply lumping together all methods (or lack of method) that do not use corporal punishment (as you describe the second family), and saying they're all the same. They're not, any more than the only alternative to a well-balanced vegetarian diet is to eat a huge, rare steak three times a day.

If spanking was not the last resort, than some other punishment would be.

See, you're coming at things from the back end - waiting till the child does wrong, then looking for a suitable means of punishment. You get much better results by not putting the child in that position in the first place.

the child is being hit because the child simply views the parent as weak or just doesn't respect the parent for a multitude of reasons, be it drugs, their peers, environment etc.

So why does the child see his hard-hitting parents as weak? Why doesn't he respect them even though they're doing their best to knock respect into him? Could it be that the hitting isn't working? By the time a child is old enough to be facing problems with drugs and the like, his parents have already had well over a decade to see to it that he has the tools to deal with peer pressure and a dodgy environment. If they haven't done that, it's failed parenting and those failed parents have no business punishing the child for their own shortcomings.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

To all the parents out there who have spanked their kids; great you made the choice to do that in, what you thought to be, the best interest of your child. I would never suggest you are "bad" parents because of this.

However, I am appealing to any parents to be; look very carefully into the many alternative, and kinder more loving methods there are to discipline your children. You DO NOT need to go down the path of hitting, light spanking or not.

Super Nanny might be an entertaining start.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

There could be genetic or a mental problem.

Please don't tell me you think it's a good idea to physically punish a person (child or not) for a genetic or mental disability.

if they have a child that is hormonally bipolar or irrational and being diagnosed as a possible problem for society, then in that case, it's not the parents fault.

Neither is it the child's fault. Why hit him for a hormonal imbalance? Wouldn't a proper medical diagnosis and appropriate treatment be a better, more loving, more responsible way of dealing with the problem?

You cannot come to just one conclusion that if the child doesn't listen, it's automatically the parents fault.

If it wasn't the parents who raised him to be a person who doesn't listen, who did?

We're not talking about medical cases clearly needing professional treatment, we're talking about ordinary little kids living with their ordinary parents in an ordinary environment.

I'm just not sure we need to attach an enormous stigma to the act of spanking if performed in a responsible manner.

I'm struggling to fathom what you might see as 'a responsible manner'. The granny hitting the two-year-old that Davinyoko mentioned earlier is not, as far as I can see, anywhere near being even remotely 'responsible'; it's a 'quick-fix' cop-out that arguably does far more harm than good. Yet he stated he thought it was '100% OK'.

The same with older kids and drugs, etc - by the time they reach that age, parents have had plenty of time to sort them out responsibly.

letsberealistic's mention of Super Nanny is interesting; if you've watched any of her programmes, you'll know that she deals with mainly small children, not teenagers (though she has on occasion had her work cut out for her by a surly adolescent or two); and a good part of what she does is aimed at the parents rather than the kids. Put the parents on the right path, and the kids will follow.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

I'm struggling to fathom what you might see as 'a responsible manner'.

To borrow a phrase you used earlier, I think its an "admission of failure" as a parent if you are relying on spanking, or corporal punishment as a regular means of discipline. I tend to see spanking as a "last resort" sort of measure, for especially bad or out of control behavior. Or, especially for very young children, a quick response to dangerous behavior. Spanking should be mild, not done in anger, open hand on bottom - never, ever with an object. I wouldn't spank a child past, say, 5 or 6 or so. I think that the sort of mild spanking I am advocating would work much beyond that (I remember the last time I was spanked - I was thinking: "is this it? what was I so afraid of this doesn't even hurt... quick, pretend that it does so they won't figure out this isn't working anymore!" Plus, you should be able to adequately reason with, or otherwise deal with an unruly child by then. Ideally, you'd only spank your kid two or three times total, but have the threat of spanking as a kind of ultimate disciplinary action. Scratch that, ideally you'd never have to spank your kid at all, but I'm not sure that's feasible for every child. I think its great that you managed to more or less pull this off, and I agree pursuing non-corporal methods of punishment. However, I'm not sure I'm ready to give up on the idea of having physical punishment as a backstop, in case its necessary. I can already hear you thinking "its never necessary" but I'm not convinced that's true.

Perhaps necessary is the wrong word. Anyone can raise a child without any sort of corporal punishment. From my perspective, the real question is where do the benefits of spanking out way the detriments. Not an easy question, and one that will be different for every child - and every parent. Spanking is a sort of "necessary evil" I think, in some situations. I think the point where non-spankers and I part ways is a metaphysical done: non-spankers seem to see "violence" as a sort of moral or physiological threshold, the crossing of which does untold karmic damage: e.g., spanking teaches the kid to use violence to solve problems, damages their self-esteem, destroys the bond of trust between parent and child, etc... Essentially, corporal punishment is a sin. Personally, I don't see things that way. I'm skeptical of the psychological claims, provided the "spanking" were are talking about is the of sort I outlined above (again, beating your kid with a belt every other night is a very different story). I'm approaching things from a pure cost-benefit analysis: what tools do I have to solve the problem, and which ones are best for what situation; what is the trade off between harm to the child, and future harm prevented? Answers like "spanking never works no matter what" and "there is always a better way" are far too dogmatic, in my opinion. If you believe there is a better option as a parent in any given situation, then by all means take it. It's conceivable to me that in some cases there could be worse options...

I'm pretty comfortable with this position, and am unlikely to change it anytime soon. The question I am interested in, and what I think we should really be asking ourselves is the following: in any given society that allows corporal punishment of children, there are going to be some who apply it responsibly and some that don't. There are unquestionably millions of children out there who have be traumatized by physical abuse in the guise of discipline, intentionally or otherwise. So the real question, is does the net gain a society revives by banning corporal punishment exceed the net loss in utility (and you can add in parental autonomy concerns here) from losing corporal punishment as a disciplinary tool. Or, to put it another way, how many children (and future adults) are spared the effects of abuse vs. how many family lives are unduly strained by (you can add in raising spoiled children concerns here). You will of course, always have some that physically abuse their children anyway, but that shouldn't alter the calculation. Before you come back with a reflex response take some time to consider the following: how much damage (mental, as opposed to physical) will the replacement methods of punishment cause? Will there be a net decrease in the amount of discipline? And, how may otherwise good parents will get in trouble with Child Protective Services because of such a ban? (At the extreme, removing a child from a household where a parent uses corporal punishment may be worse for that child then simply allowing the corporal punishment to take place). No easy answers here, but a hell of a lot more interesting question than: "Is spanking bad?" I hope you'll agree.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

You take the little tyke off to the side and have a "quick time out talk" and that lasts for only a little while, that settled things for a short time, but once the kid got spanked, the problem was solved for the long term.

So you look at one other reactive method, decide it doesn't work, and conclude that the only other alternative must be a good spanking? You've admitted yourself that spanking does not work in the short or long term - otherwise why did your sister 'need' repeated spankings?

lets say, hypothetically, your child slapped you in the face or cursed at you or even picked up a knife and waved it in your face

It would never happen.

I can say so quite categorically, it would never happen. Stuff like that does not happen out of the blue. Have you understood nothing at all of what I have written about proactive parenting, dealing with problems before they happen, not waiting until there is a problem and then wondering what on earth to do about it? Nothing at all?

The heart-to-heart comes as a regular part of family life, not just when one member has snapped and lost the plot. The idea is to prevent the child snapping, not wait till he snaps, express surprise and then punish him.

Did you bother to read your own link, by the way? While trumpeting (or at least tinkling) that spanking 'isn't the bugaboo that many people make of it', it also points out that children spanked past the age of six do suffer in later life - so it would seem not to be a very good 'last resort' for those older kids who are into drugs, slapping Mum in the face or waving a knife at Dad. (But seriously, if this kind of thing is really happening, the family is way past the 'last resort' stage...). It also points out that what is important is not spanking per se, but discipline: it’s more the willingness on the part of parents to set limits on children not ready for complete freedom. Limits, boundaries, rules, can be set and maintained without spanking.

I'm not talking about the crazy, deranged psychos out there.

You do realise that those crazy deranged psychos think they're as normal as the rest of us? Even while they're allowing their kids to starve to death (stories in this week's JT)

And lots of average, everyday normal parents obviously don't know what's in their children's best interests - hence the popularity of SuperNanny and any number of other how-to-raise-your-kids programmes. And if every parent knew exactly what they were doing, and were doing it successfully, we wouldn't be seeing all these little tykes, baby-biting toddlers, mother-slapping schoolkids or knife-waving adolescents.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

we wouldn't be seeing all these little tykes, baby-biting toddlers, mother-slapping schoolkids or knife-waving adolescents

or arrogant bully's bred from hypocrite parenting

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

I put 'yes' on the basis that when I do raise a kid, I will. There's no way my child will be raised with the satisfaction that he's above any kind of spanking and can do whatever he wants. I won't raise a little spoiled brat that extrapolates his immunity in the house into society and grows up learning he can push the rules and break the law without fear of reproach.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

bass4funk-

why don't you answer the question? If your child would hit you, curse at you or pull a sharp object and waved it in your face. Would you also just try to talk some logical sense into your child?

In thirty years it never once happened, never showed any signs of happening, was never ever considered even remotely likely to happen. You may as well ask me what would I do if a whirlwind dropped a house from Kansas on my head.

My kids had plenty of logical sense instilled in them - some by talking, a lot more through day-to-day interaction and setting of good examples. It ensured that they didn't go off the deep end as you seem to fear your kids might do - despite being spanked?

We never know how kids will act.

Pay attention to your kids on a daily basis, and you know how they will act.

Triumvere -

The question is how efficiently it does the job

Couldn't agree more. I suppose it all depends on what you consider 'efficient', and what end result you hope to achieve. Personally I've never looked on child-rearing as a particularly 'efficient' activity. It takes a lot of time and effort and soul-searching to get it right.

If at any point it becomes clear that a method of punishment is not having the desired deterrent effect, then that method should be abandoned in favor of a more effective method.

You're still looking for ways to punish the child instead of ways to resolve the problem that is causing the bad behaviour you're trying to deter.

There is no point spanking your kid if it isn't doing anything to correct the problem.

'Swot I've been saying all along.

Basically there are two issues , the underlying problem and the child's response to that problem. The child has control over the second, but not the first.

A two-year-old has very little control over her emotional responses.

Punishment may help to alter the response behavior. The biting girl mentioned above is a good example.

In that particular instance, the slap apparently did stop the toddler biting; but it didn't do anything to improve the situation, didn't do anything to help the girl deal with the problem, namely that she was feeling sidelined by the new baby. All the slap did was add one more reason to dislike the baby and so make it harder for the little girl to deal with the situation.

Yabits -

A good part of that trust comes out of the following questions: "If I cross over a line, can I count on you to straighten me out?"

The child first needs to know where the lines are. Blindfolding him, telling him to walk and slapping him every time he crosses a line he knows nothing about, isn't going to create much trust.

The people who reject reasonable corporal punishment as having any possible useful or valid purpose are really more in love with themselves and, by blowing loud and hard for their god-like stance, are looking for validation from the world.

Don't need any validation from the world, thank you : my validation is embodied in the two fine young people I put in it.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

@cortes

I totally agree.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

@cleo

You think going around slapping two-year-olds teaches is a good thing, that's your opinion.

Yes, as a last and final resort, of course. You should always have that option on the table.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

@cleo

Don't you think, if a parent feels they've reached the stage where they're looking for a last and final resort with a two-year-old, they need professional help?

No, not really at least for the majority of parents. Every case is different.

Because to get to that stage with a two-year-old means either the parents have really, really messed up with her upbringing so far, or the child is psychologically unbalanced.

Of the child is just way to stubborn, you left that out.

In the situation we're discussing, we're far from being at the stage of needing a 'last resort'.

Regardless, I am just saying, "what if?" the option should be available is all I am saying.

@oikawa

I'm still curious as to exactly what actions would in your opinion deserve a smack, where the smack would be and if you're smacking for pain or not.

NOT smacking for pain, just trying as a final result to get the child's attention, worked on my kids, worked on my siblings and worked on me, EVERY TIME. I am fine, no scars, get along with pretty much everyone, NO trauma or anything negative. For all of us, it worked, bottom line.

Previously you talked about "trash talking" and seemed to be referring to older children but now you're talking about smacking 2 year olds.

Yes, I stick by that and also I meant anyone! And "Yes," even a 2 year old, but again as a "final" resort. How many times do I have to emphasize this point?

What could a 2 year-old do that would require a last resort solution of smacking them?

Depends on the situation.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

bass4funk -

some of us had to and it was the best decision.

What made you think you 'had to'?

why must we tell kids to constantly brush their teeth or wash their hands

Constantly? Really? Make it a game and little kids are eager to brush their teeth and wash their hands, show Mummy/Daddy/Nana how good they are at it, and bask in the glow of the praise they get. As they get older they no longer need the praise, but the good feeling remains and they brush their teeth/wash their hands because it's become second nature to them, and makes them feel good. Or you can turn it into a chore and obligation by nagging at them so that they only do it when they have to, when they're told to, and don't do it whenever they think they can get away with not doing it. Then I suppose when they end up with caries from not brushing their teeth, you can give them a spanking for not listening to you.

you need to put hearty veggies and use a huge selection of spices, it all needs to come together and you need to use whatever you have to make it taste good

That's right. No one is going to come back for second helpings of soup, no matter how nutritious, if it tastes bad.

You sound like you are pouting as if I'm twisting your arm.

I answered your question. Whether you like the answer or not is another matter. I see you have not been able to answer mine. When is it OK to spank a two-year-old?

what if the situation went from bad to worse and someone got stabbed?

Then we're no longer talking about disciplining a child, we're talking about a criminal incident. You're the one who said he wanted to talk about 'average, everyday normal' people, not special cases. The majority of kids, no matter how they are raised, do not go around waving knives at people. So let's try to keep the conversation real, shall we? So, what would you do if your child pointed a knife at you? You seem to think it's a real possibility. Assuming you were able to take it off him without anyone getting hurt, would you give him a 'last resort' spanking and hope that put everything 'back on track'? Or would you think maybe this was a much bigger problem than a simple spanking can sort out?

so you would give yourself all the blame, even if you gave it your best?

If I take responsibility for raising the child, then I bear some responsibility for the end result.

It is humanly impossible for a child to be bad.

No child is born bad.

Every child or better, every teen is inherently good

By the time a child reaches his or her teens, an awful lot of water has gone under the bridge - waters that, in the early years at least, are (or should be) almost totally controlled by the parents. In the immortal words of the poet Philip Larkin, They f### you up, your mum and dad/They may not mean to, but they do./They fill you with the faults they had/And add some extra, just for you.

So if your kids are over 25 years and commit a murder, then what you are saying is, .... You basically, failed that child and you were a bad parent.

Duh. Ever hear the plaintive cry, 'Where did we go wrong?'?

if it comes to that, then you might have to really get physical in order to get control of the situation

Do you see that as being the same as a disciplinary slap? Because I see them as totally different.

yes, a pop on the bottom I think depending on the situation is fine

But what situation?? What could a two-year-old possibly do that you think you would have no recourse but to hit him?

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Your personal anecdotes prove nothing other than either your luck, or will to win an argument. Not everyone single person whose gotten molested has ptsd or massive issues either, you must realize. So really, that proves nothing... As I said earlier, my personal anecdote is much different from yours. I did indeed have side effects.

So what you're saying is that spanking can have different outcomes based on the degree to which it is used and what other parenting techniques it is used in conjunction with?

Fascinating conclusion. I wholeheartedly accept it.

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

"Beyond"? Striking is already a failure

If striking corrects the behavior when nothing else did, then it is self-evident that striking is a resounding success.

You're merely stopping their offense itself rather than the cause of why they offended.

I see your difficulty. Yes, if the offense is serious enough then stopping it is of utmost importance -- as quickly and as effectively as possible. A rational, healthy adult does not concern himself with what motivates the young person at that moment. Such concerns are ludicrous and pompous.

Pay close attention to this one: Using rewards and punishments in an attempt to manipulate or "adjust" another person's motivations ultimately violates something far more sacred to their being than does a physical blow to their body. Therein lies the real "pain" of a parent speaking down to and ultimately disrespecting a child through a "lecture" or some other misguided way of trying to "fix" them.

-2 ( +1 / -4 )

sometimes, a reminder to show who brings home the bacon and is the king of his castle and what he says goes. don't like it? move out or start to pay your own rent.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

bass4funk -

in theory, who cares what the employees think, they received enough supposedly praise from their families, so why do I need to praise them

Oh dear. Teaching a child to clean his teeth off his own bat is now the same as teaching a child to want to work for bass4funk.co.ltd? I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of parents who are doing that, and still have five fingers left over. You don't have to praise your workers to get them to do their job. You pay them instead. Like I said, stop paying and quickly find yourself without a workforce. (And actually, a bit of praise when it's warranted makes for a happier, more motivated workforce and could end up putting more money in your pocket, but hey it's your company. If you want a grumpy workforce, that's your prerogative.)

you have conversations that end up being out of control, goes both ways.

With toddlers?? Perlease.

I do NOT give my kids a choice when it comes to eating veggies, because regardless, they don't like them

So let's get this straight, as a child you yourself got violent by the mere fact that (you were) forced to eat (your) veggies when (you) hated them so much, and now you force your own kids to eat stuff they don't like. You have no intention of making the food more palatable if it involves the tiniest bit of effort on your part, and you give the kids no choice. Is this where the 'my kids could easily come at me with a knife' scenario comes from?

Wow. Just, wow.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

cleo- Please don't talk down to me like that. Sometimes kids will be kids, you can reason with them, explain to them, bribe them, time out them but if all else fails, a swat and a time out will put them in their place. I'm sure your kids turned out fine and dandy your way and I know many that turned out to be the bee's knees mine.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

In the early 70's I lived with my father and step-mother, I suffer what they now call ADHD, back then is was either "you are lazy or just plain crazy". Well my step mother took it upon her self to try and straighten me out, by making me stand at attention for 6 hours at a time as she berated me like a Marine Drill Instructor over and over again, or starve me for days on end, not let me leave my room for the whole summer vacation, beat me for not being able to spell, or get even a C average in school, the list goes on and on. This went on for four years, finally she had had enough, and I was sent to live with my mother and her new husband. He was an uneducated man, could not read nor write, but he changed my life, he may not have been educated, but he knew a thing or two. He never yelled or hit me for getting bad grades, he could see that I was not lazy as the Mr " I have a PhD" Principal at my school would tell me daily, he tried to guide me as best he could and give me the best advice he could, he was not perfect, but in my world he was, he never spanked me for things some others got spanked for because he knew it would do no good, but he also knew when I did need one, I knew better than to disrespect my mother or any other adult, so twice he gave me a spanking for just that, I should have learned the first time, but I thought I could get away with it because he was not around the second time, I crossed the line, knowing what would happen, and when the time came I was not angry at him, but at myself for letting this happen. Could there have been a better way? Maybe, but he did a better job than anyone else that came along, PhD or GED, and so I modeled my way of raising children from his way, it may not have been perfect, but it was a lot better than that of my step mother or actual father. I respect and fear that man more than anyone, not a shaking in my boots fear, but a fear of what would happen if I disappointed him, and what the consequences would be. I love him more than anyone with the exception of my wife and children, even though he spanked me.

Cleo ,I can see the points you are trying to make, but we are all only human, some people have more patience than others, some have more time to spend with their children than others. I always thought it was strange that parents actually spend less time with their children than teachers and friends after starting school, and that can be a big obstacle in steering them in the direction we want them to go. Just think what would have happened to me if I had listened to the principal way back when, he was a negative influence, when he should have been a positive one. I quit school after the ninth grade, it did me no good going everyday and not learning a thing, I was not stupid, just had and still have a very short attention span.

I have lived at both ends of and in the middle of the spectrum, Abuse on one end, and disciplined in the middle and a guiding mother who tried her best on the other, but she lacked in some areas, as we all do. Discipline (Spanking) is accepted more by those who see that it did them some good when they were on the receiving end, so we choose that way, I don't see the way your mother went about smacking you as discipline,just as my step mother abusing me was not, they were just people who was just angry. Spanking should not occur everyday, it should be rarely used, and always followed up with words of encouragement, that is what seemed to work for me, but this is just all my humble opinion and my experience.

I also think that people forget to tell their children that they love them, I do it everyday, even though they are all adults, that seems to makes a bigger difference than we think, Japanese don't seem to do it, so my kids were shy about saying it at first, but as they got older they felt more comfortable doing it and they hopefully will pass that on to their children. I am uneducated and know not even 1/1000 of a percent of anything, but I tried my best raising my children, as I think most of us here did, and some are still in the process of doing. There are no redo's in life, so we have to live with our choices, but we also always need to think hard about the outcome of our choices before we make them.

I was asked by my daughter once if I could, would I go back and change my past, I told her 'not a chance', because if I did even one little change would have made to as where I never joined the Navy and come to Japan, and we would not be sitting here having this conversation as father and daughter. That does not make it right that I was abused, but I learned back then that it was not a path I would take with my children, I know some see spanking as a form of abuse, but some of us do not see it that way. I am not trying to convince you that spanking is the only way or the best way to raise children, it is just our way. I hope my ramblings make some sense.

Everyone have a great day!

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

The reality of the world is that the child will necessarily be subjected to any number of outside influences - influences that care nothing for the child's well-being but that will, either intentionally or randomly, inflict bribes and rewards to manipulate the inner person with no regard at all for the child's inner self or welfare.

Yes. Perfectly said. Influences outside of the young person -- which includes parents -- who care little or nothing about the child's inner life will indeed try to inflict bribes and rewards. That is precisely how they demonstrate that lack of understanding and respect. Replacing what the child needs with what they need. One can't blame those forces too much; look at who raised them?

Far better surely that the loving parent, who we assume has the child's best interests at heart, does everything possible to help the child resist those malignant outside influences, by giving him the tools he needs from the earliest age.

People usually assume that which they have never cared to spend any serious time reflecting on -- especially if such reflection might bring them face to face with an uncomfortable truth. As long as some adults delude themselves into thinking they are giving the young person the "tools he needs," they will refuse to consider that humans come into the world pre-equipped with the tools they need, and that all they really require is the freedom and space to develop them. If they have genuine needs from others, they learn to communicate them. Hopefully, the adults who care for them are wise and truly know how to respond according to the child's needs and not their own.

The adult who believes they need to do "everything possible" is suggesting the young person is inherently defective. If the young person is what may be called normal and healthy, those who watch over them would be advised to intrude or intervene as little as possible, remaining attentive to what the child expresses as a need -- verbally or non-verbally. Most parents do the best they can, given their own history and what they have to work with. Their kids have probably turned out the best they can under the circumstances. But the discomfiting question is what they might have become had they been cared for by those who genuinely respected them.

Daveinyoko writes something very interesting and important when he says about the step-father who raised him: "but he also knew when I did need one," meaning a spanking. It is the wise parent who can give the child what that child has communicated -- non-verbally more often than not -- as his need. Those who equate with abuse the corporal, human touch, delivered to a child who needs it, are indeed far better off not using any form of corporal punishment. It is beyond their understanding and experience how such a thing could be delivered under conditions of love and respect.

But make no mistake: Many young people will need that touch on seldom occasions, and they will know when they need it. An adult who refuses to give a young person that which they have expressed as a need is actually behaving with cruelty, if not neglect. It is not uncommon for a parent to say to a child who is testing out the limits, "You're just begging for a spanking." To which, the child's inmost self is shouting: "YES!!" This does not mean the child is a masochist who finds spanking pleasurable as some adults without understanding might want to argue.

Pity the child growing up around adults who just don't understand.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

bass4funk -

If you feel I'm 'distorting your words', I'm sorry. I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.

you're not concerned whether the kids like them or not, you just force them to eat.

For the most part, Yes.

You don't make it any easier for them. How is that different from making it harder? If it's not easier, it's harder.

my food is palatable, they just have to eat. That's it and that's all.

And in your house at your dinner table, that might work. You get the greens into them. But they still don't like the veggies; when they go out into the world and have the chance to choose their own menus, they're going to be less likely to make healthy choices, with lots of veggies, when they're free of Dad's watchful eye and there's no danger of a swat. So while you may have instilled 'obedience' into them, you haven't really taught them how to look after themselves long term by enjoying a healthy diet.

I would NEVER give my kids anything I couldn't eat. If I can eat it, so can they

So there's stuff you don't like, and that never gets put on the table; but you don't allow the kids to have their own likes and dislikes, and you don't 'bend over' to make mealtimes pleasant for them. Is this a distortion of your words?

stop saying "hitting" like I walk around slapping my kids every 5 min.

It doesn't sound nice, does it? How often do you hit/swat/pop/smack them?

I find it pathetic when I see parents trying to negotiate hours on end to a bratty child that just does whatever it wants, however it wants.

So do I.

The mother's talk to their kids, I talk to them, virtually NO results.

Do you think you would have 'results' if you were allowed to hit other people's kids? Would you be happy with other people hitting your kids when they thought they 'needed' it?

My kids NEVER, EVER go anywhere and touch things that don't belong to them, why, because they would get popped.

You know, my kids never ever go anywhere and touch things that don't belong to them either, why, because they've been taught to respect other people and their possessions. When they go out I don't need to follow them threatening to 'pop' them if they step out of line, because I know they won't. You can only 'pop' them if you know about the bad behaviour as it is happening. If you hear about it later second-hand, the 'pop' is too late to stop the bad behaviour, it isn't being used as a 'last resort', it's simply a delayed punishment. And if you don't even hear about it, the threat of the 'pop' is so much hot air.

I personally don't have a problem with MY kids

I give them a swat or a pop and that solves the problem, it works for me, every time.

if you don't have a problem with your kids, what problem is it you're solving when you swat or pop them? And if it works every time, how come you need to hit them every time?"

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

I don't know why people don't just try talking to kids. I've never seen an instance where I think spanking a child is a good way to go. If they don't understand what's wrong just make them stop. A child is not "beign naughty" if they run into the road or if they don't eat their greens, they just don't know any better, and it would be much better to explain to them the dangers of roads or give them a reward for eating what you want them to than hitting them. We really do have no hope of ending or criticizing violence of any kind if we use it with kids.

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

Everybody needs to fear someone or they will go about doing as they please and hurting whom ever gets in their way

Good lord no. Respect and fear are not the same - unless you live in gangland.

Trying to talk to your children as they were your friend or equal does them no good at all in most cases, unless they are well behaved and good-natured from birth, which to be honest is rare

No child is 'well-behaved and good-natured from birth'. It all depends on how they are raised from birth.

Children under two should never really be hit

really?? You mean it's OK to hit a baby, sort-of?

from the age of 3 till 13 a swat or two will do most of the time in my experience, then any age after that you have to be careful because it may back fire

Spend ten years teaching your kid that physical violence is the way to get people to listen to you and darn right it may backfire. (If it's so effective, how come you have to keep doing it for ten years? At the end of which you end up with a kid who you fear might turn on you?)

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

bass4funk - why would you imagine for a moment that I would choose to let my kids run around or do whatever they wanted? They were always well-behaved, the few times they did step out of line it didn't take any slaps or spanks to set them right.

And spank? Most definitely after I exhausted ALL other alternative measures. Remember, what works for me may not for you

You used ALL other alternatives, none of them worked, and you ended up having to get physical? Maybe you unwittingly taught them that anything goes until the blows begin? That Dad isn't really serious until he starts lashing out? Seriously, if you got yourself into a situation where nothing but blows would work, doesn't that tell you that basically, your method wasn't really working for you?

-3 ( +5 / -8 )

@bass4funk

But the majority of people judging by this polling seem to not agree with you, you don't have to think its right, but many here on JT differ with you, it's ok to differ on issues, but stop touting as if your way is right, because we don't know how and what measures these parents used or went through in rearing their kids. Don't convolute the issue,

Because many people do something does it make it right? Being aggressive towards children is NOT a "measure" of discipline, it is a response to your own (valid) emotions. You feel a need to "control" and hitting is the solution you come to. The fact you are doing your best as a parent is not in doubt, however...

I think that, what myself and perhaps Cleo are trying to suggest parents ask themselves is, Is hitting the very BEST way we can come up with to communicate to our kids that what they did is unacceptable and to encourage healthy behaviours? Is there possibly, even remotely, a way that this objective can be achieved without disrespecting our children's body by hitting it. And if there is the remotest possibility that we don't have to hit our kids, wouldn't you, as a loving parent with only your child's best interests at heart, take that possibility with open, grateful and eager arms?

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Parents who say "spanking works for me" should take notice of their own words. "It works for ME, and I'm going to automatically assume hitting this small person is "working" for him/her". Isn't that taking liberties a little? What if your actions were internally traumatising this small person (which many children/adults can attest to including myself - and I wasn't hit particularly hard).

Where does the trauma come from? Imagine the shock, disappointment and BETRAYAL experienced by a small child who is struck by the one person in the world they believed they could trust, be protected by and respected. You might think, "oh, it's okay I showed them a lot of love afterwards" And such confusion you are setting up in your child's mind about who you are, and what you are capable of doing to them. They were physically and socially abused by the same person who seems to love them.

Also, think of this; as these spanked children grow up they come to believe that to control myself I need to hit out (psychologically at least) at myself - that's what daddy taught me. How many mental illness must have developed from this premise. Sure, your kid is fine, but was the risk really worth it? Should we be encouraging future parents on this board to take the same risk, when they don't have to?

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Fear brings security? Poppycock.

Yes. Healthy fear brings security. You retort "poppycock" because you have obviously never learned it yourself, and for that I truly pity you. That many parents are driven by neurotic, irrational fears is highly evident in this topic. Among their worst fears is that some growth or insight might reveal to them they are not the superior parents they fancy themselves to be, and so they prefer to stunt themselves while judging others.

Sorry, but if you're seriously suggesting putting a muzzle on a toddler, it's a waste of time continuing this discussion with you.

Well, it's not me who is terrified of using my power as an adult to apply a corrective action. Most rational adults would not have any problem with seeing a person who is intent on hurting one of their kids physically restrained -- if that's what it takes. People use restraints -- like braces on legs and teeth -- to help straighten out improper growth. Oh, I forgot: those types of restraints are deemed "acceptable" by martinets, quick to point the finger and judge anyone who would deviate from their faux high standards.

The point is that spanking at best does not work...

No, the point is that we've got too many adults willing to dictate what does and does not work to others, while they've essentially put a muzzle on themselves when it comes to correcting their own kids. Again, most of these same people would not object to physical violence being used if it came to preventing some other person doing harm to one of their family. And here's the kicker: The kids know it.

Kids know that adults are more powerful than they are. They also know that it's an unpredictable power that they might not have any control over -- no matter how much adults might try to reassure them. (They read, hear, and tell stories of adults who go crazy.) The real world, while mostly a friendly place, is also a place where horrible stuff sometimes happens. And kids know it. The parent who tries to build a shelter bubble from slaps and scary stories is not doing the kid any favors at all. (Yes, infants are helpless and have to be sheltered. But kids, from a surprisingly early age, are meant to grow and deal with the world as it truly is -- with shields increasingly lowered.)

There's a cliched scene in movies where a person responds to a slap with "Thanks. I needed that." I'm here to say that the spankings that I received as a child helped me grow and learn to feel confident of where the limits were. I am thankful that, when it came time to give me much needed discipline and correction, which I had coming to me, my parents did not muzzle the power I knew full well they had. The critical lesson I learned was that an angry parent who is in the process of exercising physical power over me IS able to contain that power within limits. I am far more terrified of the parents who are themselves terrified of exercising power. Who knows what would happen if they ever broke out of their restraints?

That knowledge helped to transform what might have otherwise been an irrational fear to a healthy one -- nearly indistinguishable from awe and respect. (What the "fear of God" should be.)

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

The point is that spanking at best does not work, and at worst is harmful.

I can't stand these parents who think what's worked for them must be applicable to all other kids.

There are all kinds of kids. Some kids are fine with time-outs or deprivation of sweets or whatever (although of course those things are in a way a kind of mental violence against the kids).

Other kids are absolute hooligans who will push and push and see how much they can get away with.

I'm sorry but with those type of kids they are just laughing in your face with a 'time-out'.

It may have worked with your kids but don't be so arrogant as to try to impose it on the rest of us or try to make us feel guilty because we don't measure up to your (imagined) ideal parenting.

Your 'one-size fits all' approach to parenting is completely mistaken.

Hitting kids, even lightly and in the name of 'discipline', is never a good thing. All it teaches them is that it's OK to hit others to get your own way.

I think this comment is absolute nonsense.

When my dad gave me a clip round the ear when I was a kid I didn't think "OK I can now go and give other kids a clip round the ear."

I though... oh cra@p I've done something really bad, dad's really angry at me and I'd better not do that again.

-3 ( +3 / -6 )

Sweets are a PRIVILEGE.

Ridiculous.

Try telling my kids or any other kids they are a 'privilege'.

Walking around all day with your bum NOT being smacked is NOT a privilege, but what simply should be a right.

How about candy deprivation?

How about a 'time-out'?

Actually... what is a 'time-out'?

The child has to go and sit alone in his or her room for a certain time?

It's a kind of mental torture, I think.

It's a form of mental violence.

There is no perfect way to discipline kids.

But anti-smacking parents should also look at the mental torture they are inflicting on their kids.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

choiwaru -

How old was the escalator fiend? Had he never seen an escalator before?

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

If even most hitters acknowledge it as a "last resort", then obviously there's something inherently wrong with it. Did I really have to point that out?

Your logic is equivalent to: "There is something inherently wrong with a card game that considers the Ace as the highest card."

Let us get real. There are measures to take beyond striking a young person. Fortunately, the vast majority of parents never have to consider them. Supposing a young person develops a compulsion for and takes pleasure in torturing animals. You really think that striking the person is the last resort?

Now, let us take another sample from a set of individuals whose pathology is nowhere near as serious as the above person's, and that a physical whipping is the very thing that keeps a person from choosing to cross a very serious line a second time. You actually see something inherently wrong with that?

Correct me if I am wrong here: You are telling me that there are actually people who would rather turn a young person over to the state or to mental health professionals rather than trying corporal punishment because they are so puritanically/ideologically opposed to it? You mean their own image of themselves is so inflated that they'd rather give up one of their own children rather than being considered a "hitter?" Wow.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

@cleo

Sorry, I didn't realise you were in the business of raising workers from birth....and when they don't perform as required, do you hit them?

Sorry, let me retort, so that we are all speaking the same English language: I have two kids and I have 8 employees, Not mine, but since you were saying earlier, I don't need to praise them, I won't, they are adults and they know their perspective roles, they just need to do there jobs and who cares how they feel and NO, they don't get hit, but they will get a pink slip should they complain about me not praising them.

I'm beginning to see why you have problems.

I have problems? Why? Because my world viewpoint doesn't follow your narrative the way you think it should fit in and now you want to resort to ad hominem attacks, please.

The choice is yours, not theirs; make bedtime enjoyable so that they want to get between the sheets (for me, the promise of a bedtime story worked), or just order them to bed regardless, 'cos you don't care.

How do you know what I did or didn't do with my kids or how I brought them up?! You can just make that kind criticism about someone? Sometimes, I would order them to go to bed, yes and...? What's your point? I have NEVER chastised your role as a parent! You are very rude to say such an inflammatory remark like that. Cos I don't care?! What Gaul! it's none of my business how you raise your kids and how I raise mine, just because you are against spanking doesn't make me or other readers on JT that do bad.

Sorry, but I still don't see how you can get yourself into a situation where 'all else fails'. We're talking about a two-year-old.

It Happens to a lot of people that lose control and yes, even by a 2 year old toddler, though it might not be shown CNN everyday.

I'd never heard of Bernie Mac, had to google him. He sounds charming. When a kid gets one years old, I believe you have the right to hit them in the throat or the stomach.

One of the funniest comedians around at the time.

Maybe they should have.

Why? They don't have to. Again, you are ranting about something you absolutely don't know anything about. My uncle and aunt did a lot, A LOT to make sure their son would get EVERY single advantage of the best education and love and understanding, their kids were taught about the rough streets, gangs and how we are all equal regardless of background, race, ethnicity and if you stray, get caught up with the wrong crowd, what the would follow and how they should always want to avoid prison and explained the repercussions if they did. Well, my cousin chose another path. HE DID THE CRIME, HE RAPED, NOT HIS FAMILY, therefore, my uncle DID what he could, so did he feel guilty, NOT AT ALL! He did what he could.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

My parents had a special bamboo stick that came out when we were naughty - we turned out ok. Will probably take the same approach with my kids.

Everyday I see unruly kids in public and their parents don't do anything about it. Rolling on the floor in Haneda, climbing over other passengers on trains and buses, trampling the turf in no entry areas in parks. Seriously, if the parents gave them a stern talking to and a quick swat, I'm sure they would be fixed right up. People are too lax on kids these days...

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

No. No and NO. That's the way to tell PEOPLE that what they are doing needs to stop, be thought about or changed. NO VIOLENCE. We don't hit anyone else in society, why hit the weakest, youngest? It's pathetic to hit children. Absolutely.

You mean, in your opinion, it is violent. That depends. If you hit non-stop and repeatedly in a session, then Yes, it is. When I spank my kids or when I was spanked, it took about 5 sec., I think it's pathetic when kids talk smack to their parents, I have kids that come to my school, the parents tell them to stop doing this, stop doing that, over and over and over and over again to NO avail. That's NOT pathetic?? When a parent can't control the child and the child does whatever it wants and that happens a lot in Japan, then "I personally feel", you have failed that child. I would never let that happen.

@false

I notice most of those who think it is ok to beat kids are the same ones who under the name of feminism force their wives to work.

What on Earth are you talking about??! Had no idea you knew that all men are chauvinistic.

They hate those of us who respect humanity and that includes kids!!

Speak for yourself, I would give my life in a second for my kids without blinking!

You beat your kids and they turn out thugs who cause trouble for the rest of us you morons.

Out of all my siblings and cousins, I have a huge family, we are on my mom's side, 48 kids, out of those 48, one went to prison for 6 years on a "Aggravated Rape charge" with a firearm. He took a plea deal, was looking at 25 years. He had everything, spoiled and loved to the core, parents did everything right except spanking the boy. Hmmm, so he turns out to be a thug a felon, a convicted sex offender even though he was never beaten. unlike the rest of us who got spanked and NONE of us ever in trouble. Who is the thug? Maybe, looking back in hindsight, his parents should have spanked him, then maybe he wouldn't have turned out to be a rotten thug.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

In my country hitting children for discipline is illegal. I´ve never been hit by my parents and I have never hit my children.

Hitting kids, even lightly and in the name of 'discipline', is never a good thing. All it teaches them is that it's OK to hit others to get your own way.

Exactly. If you want as little violence as possible in a society you can start by setting an example yourself by not showing violence to your kids. There are many ways to discipline your children without using violence.

-4 ( +6 / -10 )

You are going into the realm of Nonsense

So you agree that hitting someone because they don't listen to you is nonsense?

And I can't see how some parents allow their kids to do whatever they want, when they want and how they want.

Neither can I. You think the only two alternatives are 'spank 'em' and 'let 'em run wild'?

-4 ( +5 / -9 )

bass4funk - and you are quoting another poster at me because......?

Liberals ALWAYS want to blame other forces for their own mistake and inadequacies and also never want to realize, that kids DO screw up from time to time.

Sorry, what 'mistake and inadequacies'? The only mistake and inadequacy I've owned up to is spanking one of my kids when I was tired and frustrated, and I said up front that I was in the wrong. Who or what else do you imagine I am blaming?

And yes of course kids do sometimes 'screw up' (mismanage or mishandle a situation is the definition my dictionary gives for this Americanism; if I'm understanding it wrongly, please correct me) - anyone can make a mistake. When that happens they need help and guidance to put things right and make sure they don't make the same mistake again, not punishment. If on the other hand by 'screw up' you mean deliberately do something they know is wrong/immoral/forbidden, you need to ask yourself why they have chosen to step down that path, and how you can stop them choosing to do it again. In the immediate instance, a slap might work; It will teach the child not do wrong when there's a chance of getting found out. But you aren't always going to be there to administer a timely slap. You need some strategy that will prevent them wanting to do wrong, even when there are no authority figures around to administer instant punishment. Most criminals who end up in prison didn't figure on getting caught or found out.

I'm just tired of all these idiotic excuses

Idiotic excuses for hitting kids, yup, I'm tired of those too.

your method doesn't work on everyone, sorry.

You don't know what my 'method' is, I'm pretty sure you've never tried it, so how can you say it doesn't work?

Cynicarc - By the time the kids are old enough to go to school and turn up already showing no respect for authority, most of the damage is already done. Discipline (and I don't mean spanking) starts at birth. if you don't start off right during the first 6 years, there's little chance you'll get it right after that. You've already taught the child that there are no consequences, they can carry on as they please until Mum or Dad gets physical.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/09/opinion/sendek-corporal-punishment

Most parents want their children to settle disagreements and handle frustration in a nonviolent way. We tell our children to "use their words," and not to hit when they are upset. But when we are displeased with their behavior, we hit them. What message does that send if the person who is supposed to love, nurture and protect you, hits you?

-4 ( +4 / -8 )

letsberealistic, great link.

Like it says, we’ve got to be the bigger, more mature ones and lead by example

And yes, it takes a bit more time, thought and effort than waiting for the kid to make a mistake and then thwacking him.

sometimes for some kids there's nothing that works.

Can't agree, Nessie. Maybe the parent hasn't found what works, but that doesn't mean nothing works or that hitting is the only way. And the more s/he relies on hitting, the less likely s/he is to find what does work. Lashing out is easier and in the short term can be more satisfying. Till you realise you've got a kid who's either a) afraid of you or b) skillful at making sure you aren't around when he's doing something that he thinks would get him a spanking or c) prepared to do to others what his parents did to him.

-4 ( +4 / -8 )

@jump

"Beyond"? Striking is already a failure, anything worse than that can all be lumped into the same category of failure. Any and every action you choose from this category is something that can be avoided by the responsible parent, so arguing what is "worse" in this category is entirely and completely irrelevant. You have options!

Have you ever thought that for some people that statement you made might upset some people? So every person that strikes their kid is a failure? You can't judge and you don't know what and how he of anyone of us raise our kids. I am against ANY child abuse, but a pop on the butt is NOT abuse and if you think so, then you are entitled to your opinion, but you can't criticize anyone or anything if you don't or want to accept the reality of life. We all have our ways. That is OUR option.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

@badman

There is not one study from a reputable, peer-reviewed source that shows spanking/corporal punishment works, but there are numerous studies that show various negative effects of spanking/corporal punishment. Most of them show increased levels of violence and decreased ability for conflict resolution as they age.

That's not true. I provided in the past quite a few sources, but moving on, if you think like that, then kids shouldn't be playing these video games, watching Bugs Bunny and most cartoons, nowadays are so violent. There are a ton of things out there that can make kids violent. I got violent by the mere fact that I was forced to eat my veggies when I hated them so much with the deepest passion. Maybe that's why I have some trauma in my life, being forced to eat veggies and liver. I guess, my parents should have given in an not forced me to eat the stuff. So if you want to ban one thing, ban them all not just spanking, let's be completely fair. This should then decrease the violence and conflict resolution that build up in kids.

Having said that, my son is 3.5 and I struggle not to spank him sometimes. Not spanking is the more challenging way to raise your kids, but unless you are a lazy parent and are spanking your kids routinely, then their end result is likely not much different.

You have to "struggle?" Why? As I said, when all else fails, why must you struggle, when you gave it all your best. You should not have to feel guilty if you have to pop your kid every now and then.

-4 ( +0 / -4 )

@Cleo, spelling is the measure of an exceptional person in your book. I guess your kids can recite the dictionary. you must be a proud parent indeed! My working class friend, you made my point for me. nothing left to say.

@All, permission granted to simply ignore Cleo, he/she who has been so busy educating others and dismissing others ideas can only tell you how to raise spelling bee champs. For the rest of you, physical punishment (i.e. not abuse) is simply one of the many tools that parents can use to instruct and/or discipline kids. Use it sparingly and use it with the intent to instruct (not damage) and never out of anger (always out of love) and you/your kids will be fine and, in many cases, better off for it. Realize that one shoe does not fit all (kids) and the extent to which hitting/spanking is used depends on the individual and is not a blanket fix-it-all solution.

@Cleo, can U have your kid spelcheck this one for me. I am 2 busy contributing to sosiety. lol

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Davinyoko - You said, and I quote, 'Everybody needs to fear someone or they will go about doing as they please and hurting whom ever gets in their way', and then you said 'most young men need to fear someone'.

It's simply not true. I respected my parents, never feared them, never felt the need to go round hurting anyone who got in my way. Two brothers who were once young men, they also had no need to fear their parents, neither of them ever hurt a living soul. And no, we did not live in a 'perfect world'.

I would be mortified if I thought my kids feared me. I flatter myself that they respect me. Certainly neither I nor their father has ever had to 'go all out' (whatever that means - I shudder to think) with either of them.

You use physical discipline as a last resort when they do not listen!

Why do you think they are not listening? Having taught them that lesson (It's OK to hit people who don't listen to you), would you approve of them going out into the world and getting physical with people who 'do not listen'? Would it be OK to, say, slug a traffic cop who refused to turn a blind eye to a speeding offence? Or to drag a girl into the bushes if she refused to listen to a pick-up line? Beat up the interviewer who declined to hire them for the job they really, really wanted? Where would you draw the line? Don't hit outsiders, just family members?

Talk of hitting kids to make them 'respect and fear' their parents is just so wrong, I'm sorry, but I cannot see it as a way of just 'doing things differently'. It's the last resort of parents who haven't tried or have failed with other methods.

-5 ( +5 / -10 )

If even most hitters acknowledge it as a "last resort", then obviously there's something inherently wrong with it. Did I really have to point that out?

How so?

-5 ( +1 / -6 )

Good god it's the 21st century are we still not clear that hitting in any form is abuse?! Luckily (for the kids) It's illegal in many countries; hope it becomes illegal in Japan soon - unacceptable levels of child abuse in this country.,

-7 ( +3 / -10 )

Maybe about three times in total, and afterwards I regretted it every time. It wasn't discipline, they didn't need physical chastisement, it was just me being too tired/frustrated to think things through, and it didn't help.

Hitting kids, even lightly and in the name of 'discipline', is never a good thing. All it teaches them is that it's OK to hit others to get your own way.

-14 ( +6 / -20 )

I'm a bachelor, never married, no kids, so no.

-17 ( +5 / -22 )

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