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Sexual images of minors in manga and anime: Art or obscenity?

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Well, now if regulators in Japan would finally understand the difference, things might change. Problem is that many of the manga writers themselves are women, and until women understand that it's them that are being degraded and "used" things will hardly change....in my humble opinion here.

-9 ( +5 / -14 )

None of the above. It's not art, and it's not obscenity. It's just an animated story. Quite disgusting, but nothing that should be banned, as no one is hurt in the making of it.

-6 ( +15 / -20 )

I dnt look @manga. So I wouldn't know. But if there are sexual images of minors, then it's obviously obscene.

-2 ( +8 / -9 )

The words "sexual" and "minors" in the same sentence, there's your first clue.

no one is hurt in the making of it

Maybe not in the "making", but what about as a result of the "viewing"?

7 ( +18 / -10 )

Maybe not in the "making", but what about as a result of the "viewing"?

That neither.

-5 ( +9 / -13 )

So, is it your contention that, with all the many thousands of people viewing this material, not one of them has ever gone on to molest or have sex with a child? Or will you just contend that the connection can't be proven?

-3 ( +8 / -11 )

No, that is not my contention.

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

Quite disgusting, but nothing that should be banned, as no one is hurt in the making of it.

Really? Tell that to the next child that gets molested because some pervert addicted to these manga decide to live out their fantasy and take it to the next level.

People ARE affected by what they see, and especially those that are possibly unbalanced and can not discern between fantasy (manga) and reality.

The CHILD and society gets hurt. Keeping one's head in the sand and failing to accept that there is a correlation is wrong.

-9 ( +10 / -18 )

Really? Tell that to the next child that gets molested because some pervert addicted to these manga decide to live out their fantasy and take it to the next level.

So do you propose we ban all pornography? Someone may watch it and go out and rape someone.

So do you propose we ban all action movies? After all, people see others get killed, and may go out and kill someone.

And so on and so on.

10 ( +20 / -9 )

I voted Art.

Humans been portraying the nude female form for millennia, might not be to everyone's taste. From early fertility figures and the images have changed across the ages in Victorian times having a pre-teen prostitute was not uncommon and accepted.

Interestingly enough cultures where nudity is accepted they have few child molesters.

Now Art like Sexual and Erotic has definitions that vary widely between locations and times.

As for manga hard to define the age of the character as even adult characters often look and behave younger like teens, example Wagnaria.

-5 ( +10 / -15 )

First I'll say it's obscene kiddie porn and Lolicon material.

As one poster wrote: "Most of the writers are women". You really can't listen to Feminism and their complaints. With one face they call men misogynistic and then turn around do a spread for a magazine. Or worse walk around in see through clothes and accuse the world that they are being "objectified".

This manga doesn't help. It serves it's purpose though. It teaches men that this how the women of Japan want to be seen. It creates the pedestal and idol effect. Women objectifying themselves keeps men in check. It's a constant reminder to men to pay the bill. Keep paying for women. We are something that you buy. A woman's sexuality is ALWAYS something you pay for.

It's a disgusting cycle that keeps men oblivious to the fact that women are far more educated than we imagine. They are calculating business women and in the world's oldest profession. The skin trade.

-5 ( +8 / -12 )

Pictures of children as young as toddlers posed in sexually suggestive ways are easily found online in Japan.

Sorry, this is straight-up Wrong imo.

< http://ajw.asahi.com/article/behind_news/social_affairs/AJ201406180087>

1 ( +5 / -4 )

It is sexy art. I like it. Quite the turn on. I voted art.

-12 ( +8 / -20 )

JapanGal: "It is sexy art. I like it."

You find children being gang raped sexy?

-3 ( +12 / -15 )

There are better things to watch and read than 'artists' depicting children in this manner. I wouldn't insult my budgie by lining his cage with this garbage.

-3 ( +4 / -7 )

You find children being gang raped sexy?

She shouldn't have to answer this. So I will.

I doubt it. But maybe she enjoys the imagery. For example there are a significant number of women who enjoy rape fantasies. But I'd wager the number that would enjoy actually being raped is pretty close to, or even, zero.

Same as I love action movies, but have zero interest in killing anyone. Or being killed.

0 ( +12 / -12 )

Actually, I compared several religious texts that promoted rape, underage sex, and killing to this Manga and was found off topic. So I have rephrased it here. I do not want to offend religions, but many are similar to this manga in many ways. So if we ban Manga, then we should ban some of these famous religious texts.

1 ( +8 / -7 )

Obscenity.

-2 ( +9 / -11 )

Not just an obscenity. It's criminally perverted.

-1 ( +10 / -11 )

'Actually, I compared several religious texts that promoted rape, underage sex, and killing to this Manga and was found off topic. So I have rephrased it here. I do not want to offend religions, but many are similar to this manga in many ways. So if we ban Manga, then we should ban some of these famous religious texts.'

Those books were written by people living in a very different moral climate to today. Genocide, slavery, rape and sex with minors is thankfully frowned upon by civilised people in today's world. I actually wouldn't ban depictions of underage sex, but I regard this kind of thing as attractive to degenerates, idiots and people I wouldn't touch with a barge pole generally.

I couldn't imagine a conversation with my wife like 'I read an interesting book/article about.....today, it said.....How about you, Jimmy?'

'Oh, I was reading a kiddie porn manga'.

-1 ( +6 / -8 )

The way the question is written, if they are fictional characters portrayed in manga and anime, they cannot be 'minors', surely.

Unless it is some hypothetical extreme form of comic that uses plainly immature children in its images. In that case I would say obscene and twisted.

They are more likely to be mature adults who eat, diet, make-up and dress to look young, cute and sexy. Generally these characters seem to be a mixture of mature (ie adult) bodies with innocent child-like or even childish minds and voices, deliberately aimed at the male fantasy mind. There may be a legal line in the sand, but it seems that many of both sexes here in Japan struggle to keep alive the idea that they have not yet reached that line, a sort of yearning for eternal youth.

I remember a male college student at a prestigious university here complaining in written work that it was his nineteenth birthday and he was now forever 'old'.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Strangerland: "I doubt it. But maybe she enjoys the imagery."

Okay, so she and others like her just may like the imagery of CHILDREN BEING GANG RAPED. I mean, who wouldn't, right? The image of a little child having things thrust into them and put in sexual positions for the enjoyment of others is clearly beautiful art and erotica. Thanks for clarifying.

-6 ( +7 / -13 )

Obscenity. maybe it's doesn't matter for people who active in social life, or has people who depend on them in the living. However, for those people who has everything provided by their parents and introvert, where do u think their enjoy the most? it's in their books and movies. they don't notice if it's not real world and just the author's fantasy and creativity.

-4 ( +1 / -5 )

Okay, so she and others like her just may like the imagery of CHILDREN BEING GANG RAPED. I mean, who wouldn't, right? The image of a little child having things thrust into them and put in sexual positions for the enjoyment of others is clearly beautiful art and erotica. Thanks for clarifying.

Not my thing, but some of my things aren't other's things. As long as no one is getting hurt.

-3 ( +6 / -9 )

Simply put sexual images of minors in manga is explicit and represents people as objects, while art invites us into the subjectivity of the represented person and relies on suggestion.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

To those who say 'art'... let me ask you this: does that apply to fan manga which shows, for example, the Sailor Moon characters (schoolgirls) being raped? Or any number of fan produced manga which show similar situations and are freely available in Akihabara...

I was a comic artist for a while and in no way would I call the depiction of under age sex art... an artist may execute the image, but in the same way that paedo photos are taken by a photographer doesn't make them art. It's sick, and the minds that execute the material and those who get pleasure from it are also sick. The only people this appeals to are the twisted, warped individuals who would quite happily spend his days kiddie-fiddling.

Ban it.

0 ( +6 / -6 )

I have a question made from a recent observation.

I sat on the train next to a middle aged Japanese male one school day. The man had a sketch book and was sketching people. Part of me thought that was interesting and he "must be an artist... or mangaka, perhaps." It turned into kind of a creepy feeling for me and went from "interesting" to "should I tell someone or ask him to stop or at least tell the junior high school girl (only one girl, not both....) that they were being sketched? I later asked adults and they mostly said, "oh, he must be a mangaka." Hmmm.... I still did not feel good about it and asked them if that was the same as taking pictures of girls on trains. Most did not see the connection. So, last week, I talked with some female high school students. I asked them and they said that for them, taking pictures was unforgivable and a crime, but sketching them seemed even worse, because to sketch someone the artist has to focus for a longer and more intense period of time. They did not like that at all!!!

So, there is a small survey that tells me it is possibly not art if one does not want to have it done to themselves. I have yet to meet a high school girl who is happy that middle aged men or younger men or even women get excited about drawings of girls being raped, intimidated or molested. I know personally of one young man in the USA who asked high school girls to take pictures for his band's album cover. Turned out he also "collected" photos of the young daughter of the woman he lived with in various poses. Arrested.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

I think it's disgusting and not art, but I have to agree with stangerland and JapanGal about it being harmless and not banning it. They're just drawings, so nobody is getting exploited or abused.

I doubt getting rid of it would rid us of pedophiles either. In fact we might be denying them their only harmless means of satisfying their urges.

If anything, Japan should do something about the more subtle (comparatively) sexualization and idolizing of actual minors in TV and mainstream media. Again nothing legal, but deciding as a culture to not idealize them so much. The current levels probably lead some otherwise healthy people to being attracted to school girls and certainly don't discourage it.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

I have a question made from a recent observation.

What's the question?

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Someone above started talking in capital letters about child RAPE and stuff, but that surely wasn't meant in the original question. It makes earlier comments invalid. Moving goalposts, or what? What kind of manga/anime exactly are we talking about here?

Yesterday I was at a sword exhibition with sexy girl anime/manga poster characters featuring in a new game on the market. Young, or acting young, but mature surely; sadly no way of judging their age precisely. So this is not what we are discussing here? :confused:

0 ( +2 / -2 )

What an obvious answer to such a sick question,of course unless you're sick and that's your thing.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

What an obvious answer to such a sick question,of course unless you're sick and that's your thing.

I'm not sick, and it's not my thing, but I'm guessing that my answer was different from yours.

-2 ( +6 / -8 )

A normal human being will not look at manga and suddenly get the urge to molest a child. They had to have had it in their makeup to begin with. People just don't flip that way, from sexually normal to pedophiles after reading manga.

2 ( +8 / -6 )

To be honest, I saw this article and the first thing that came to mind was "clickbait". ^_^;

This subject has been debated elsewhere, specifically the item where Japan was reported to have brought in the restriction of the portrayal of child porn but had excluded manga/anime from that restriction. Some have argued that manga/anime porn should be included in this restriction but my own position was that the restriction would be difficult to enforce because of the difficulty in defining a child within the subject medium.

As far as asking whether such things are art or pornography, the question is irrelevant since plenty of art, including important and popular pieces dating back centuries, could be described as pornographic. The two terms are not mutually exclusive. It's all a matter of perspective.

As far as I am concerned, I have no real interest in pornography in manga or anime for its own sake but my concern is that by labelling titles in this way, we could possibly be condoning censorship, something I feel strongly about. This is a problem I see especially in those that subscribe to the idea that printed media and video causes imitative behaviour to occur, whether it is sex, violence or anything else. This is a link that has been debated and investigated quite a few times but has not been completely proven despite the clamouring of some media outlets and activists to the contrary.

My view is that the provision of porn, whatever the type, is there to supply a demand Remove the demand and you remove the need to provide it. Making such a market illegal without removing the demand simply drives the whole thing underground, making it much harder to deal with.

11 ( +11 / -1 )

My view is that the provision of porn, whatever the type, is there to supply a demand Remove the demand and you remove the need to provide it. Making such a market illegal without removing the demand simply drives the whole thing underground, making it much harder to deal with.

So how do you remove the demand, Mistie? Not banning something because it will drive it underground is already accepting defeat. Banning something makes the consumer a criminal... therefore pervs who get off on drawings of kiddie rape (easy to identify a child in these... they tend to wear school uniforms!) will be crims... how many of them want to have that hanging over their heads? Treat it like animal sex... I can't imagine there being manga depicting some perv buggering a sheep.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

This is not a well-worded question. First, it depends on the particular image or images. Next something may well be "obscene" and still be "art." Importantly, in anime no real children are being exploited. That is the real issue with child pornography in movies or still images. Children being exploited for profit should be illegal.

There are anime that many people will find offensive. I would find children being abused in cartoons offensive. I am more offended when children in real life are abused.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Mistie: Well said and agreed. Nyny: Too funny. I seem to get those memos too, but if you reword them they are usually accepted. Stranger: Agreed!

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

In my high school and early college days, I could see the appeal of minors (read: 16 years and over), so in that respect I can get that there might be a market for sexualized images of girls meant to depict that age.

That said, most manga girls / posters that I see around don't even remotely look that age, and I do not at all see the appeal of wanting to see 10 year olds in any kind of sexual light.

Moreover, for me personally, the purpose of visual art is more than "makes the viewer sexually aroused", so no I do not see this as art.

Naked angel-babies on a sea of clouds: might make me think about religion, so sure. Art it is. Naked 12 year old taking on a sea of tentacles? not so much.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

People keep saying 'as long as no one gets hurt', yet it's the sexualization of children, among other things, that lead some people to the conclusion that child pornography, sex abuse don't cause any harm. Children are people, not objects. Manga should reflect that.

1 ( +6 / -5 )

Ok, how about the drawings that depict well known cartoon characters may they be Disney, Simpsons, etc?

Personally no interest in them but there seems to be a market for it too, so I think limiting the topic to Manga alone is misleading.

Remember anyone can draw manga style and characters from any manga, etc and most I have seen came from overseas.

In fact any character can be fictionalised into Erotic images.

Visit many Museums, Shrines and Temples across the globe and see some of the images predicted, and those are called art and not porn.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

So, 'art' can't be obscene?

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

@Thunderbird2

So how do you remove the demand, Mistie? Not banning something because it will drive it underground is already accepting defeat. Banning something makes the consumer a criminal... therefore pervs who get off on drawings of kiddie rape (easy to identify a child in these... they tend to wear school uniforms!) will be crims... how many of them want to have that hanging over their heads? Treat it like animal sex...

As I've mentioned elsewhere, there's a fair amount of anime and manga set in high schools but even there it really depends on the context as to whether the content is paedophilic or not.

Removing the demand is never going to be easy because it is a social feature that may have been ingrained over many years. I suspect that education will have to be at the forefront of any attempt to do this.

I can't imagine there being manga depicting some perv buggering a sheep.

Strange to relate, sheep anime does exist. Not sure if it includes any porn as such, but...

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Anyways, the real problem in Japan isn't representations in Manga.

Its the mainstream infantile sexual fetish. AKB48.

There are too many childish men in Japan.

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

Black: Art can be cruel, obscene, cruel and disgusting. Art is someones view of the world in their own perception taken from the context of their own existance and personal circumstances.

<Freedom of expression is important. < Take that away then humans become slaves to the media and the bible thumpers.

0 ( +5 / -5 )

'Black: Art can be cruel, obscene, cruel and disgusting. Art is someones view of the world in their own perception taken from the context of their own existance and personal circumstances.'

We are talking about crappy manga read by morons here and not Kafka, right? This is the country whose belief in artistic freedom saw the arrest of a woman for making a vagina-shaped canoe. It's tolerance of depictions of sex with children strikes me as odd in comparison. Almost as odd as the people who read this trash.

'Freedom of expression is important. < Take that away then humans become slaves to the media and the bible thumpers.'

Fine words and I fully agree and that's why I wouldn't ban it. Don't you think people would have better things to read to make themselves aware of the dangers of media control and theocracy than kiddie porn images in comics? You know, in serous big boy or big girl books without pictures?

The mods should have offered another option for the poll - low, trashy, moronic rubbish.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

I find porn manga disgusting especially sitting/standing next to some seedy guy reading them.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

It may or may not be art and/or obscenity. It's definitely a thought crime. Last I heard, those weren't illegal in Japan.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

Japangal

Indeed this is ART to feed the minds of absurd people. You keep on using the BIBLE as basis of your argument Which totally got nothing do with this topic. If a picture of a child being gang rape turns you on, then you Should stay away from a community where there are children.

To think that these doesn't bother or hurt the others is WRONG, These cause worries to normal parents with children, It can give justification to sexual offenders that gang raping or manipulating innocent children for sex is NORMAL, so it should be fine, because it's ART. Sick sick sick … Like what I have mentioned above, people who are into child sexualization should be segregated from society where there are innocent children around. It's too selfish to just think about one's own sexual fix, as we share this world with other people and these child porn fanatics can cause threats and it's a hindrance for normal parents' rights to live with peace of mind.

It's a fact, humans would have sex with people that turn them on, so if these men are sexually aroused with kids then of course they will only want to have sex with kids, and there is NO normal or good way to have sex with children.

Take these child porn artists to a new country without children and let them express themselves there, but They should not BE mixed up in a community with innocent children.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

Ask parents who have a daughter who is a HS student what they think

5 ( +6 / -1 )

team player

the only question I need ask is if Japan is safer for kids in general than in country's that ban this material?

Yes! other countries have higher crimes rates than Japan, but when it comes to children's sexual abuse, I think Japan has higher cases than some other countries. The whole years I was living at my country where you see kids playing outside 24/7 never that I witnessed an actual attempted sex crime of an adult to a kid, where here in Tokyo I've already witnessed twice.

Have you seen the vast numbers of reports on the news here in JT alone about children being victims and prey of sexual abuse and offenders? have you done a tally of each of these countries you are talking about VS Japan's crime rate related to children's sex abuse? Did you ask majority of the Parents if they really think that this country is SAFE for children? Is it really SAFE or the parents are just being too extra cautious because they are too paranoid and worried because they know that their kids are not safe outside?

With an estimate of 30,000 Suicides yearly, how can you assure that no one in that 30,000 was a victim of child molestation and sexual abuse? Japanese are not as vocal as other nationalities when it comes to opening about their experiences, especially if this can stain their family name or themselves , And so as their media compare to other countries where they report everything.

If no one takes your wallet , no news about crimes committed on children on TV or you see a clear street without muggers doesn't assure that this country is a haven for children and the child porn parishioners are harmless.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

I think Japan has higher cases than some other countries. The whole years I was living at my country where you see kids playing outside 24/7 never that I witnessed an actual attempted sex crime of an adult to a kid, where here in Tokyo I've already witnessed twice.

You think, and you provided an anecdote, but neither of these make a fact.

With an estimate of 30,000 Suicides yearly, how can you assure that no one in that 30,000 was a victim of child molestation and sexual abuse?

It's very likely. But that doesn't mean that sexual manga should be banned.

-6 ( +5 / -11 )

Japangal

Art can be cruel, obscene, cruel and disgusting. Art is someones view of the world in their own perception taken from the context of their own existance and personal circumstances.

Indeed Art is an expression of one's mind , so if the artists expresses that they find joy and arousal on children being gang raped, Then that justifies their desires to do it, and we don't know when can they hold themselves and when will they snap. So people like me are also should be free to express our worries and dissatisfaction over those child porn artists thoughts as they post threats to our innocent children. There is no normal way to have sex with kids, as kids are still too innocent to decide if they want to have sex with adults! They don't even understand yet what sex is for godsake!

Children should be learning and playing safely, not providing sexual pleasures to adult men.

Strangerland

You think, and you provided an anecdote, but neither of these make a fact.

I am saying my personal experience, personal experiences are not always necessarily written on a book or written on spreadsheets or posted by some blogger on google, that's the fact that antelophics like you should realize, facts are sometimes based on experiences and common sense, not graphs and wikipedia links. And where do these evidences and facts that you are always asking for come from????

It's very likely. But that doesn't mean that sexual manga should be banned.

I am not against sexual manga or sexual materials, In fact I love them, I am against SEXUAL MANGAS/VIDEOS/ANIMES WITH CHILDREN AS A SUBJECT. you should know the difference.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

40 years ago when I was a teenage is was rare for a teenage girl to of not engaged in sexual activity before the age of 18. I know today is the same with discussion I have had with my daughter. Maybe the masgas artist are portraying they own teenage experience with Stories. So is it the art of story telling with drawn images or is it XXXX Rated fantasy of a obscene sexually depraved person. In the west in would be deem the latter.

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

Obscenity is in the eye of the beholder.

-3 ( +1 / -4 )

noypikantoku, thank you for all the guess work. But I really think we should put stock in hard data.

Search for this "Child Sexual Abuse: Top 5 Countries With the Highest Rates" from International Business Times. America and the UK are in their top 5 list.

The US Department of Health and Human Services' Children's Bureau report Child Maltreatment 2010 found that 16% of young people aged 14 to 17 had been sexually victimized in that year, and over the course of their lifetime, 28% of young people in the US, aged 14 to 17, had been sexually victimized.

"Have you seen the vast numbers of reports on the news here in JT alone about children being victims and prey of sexual abuse and offenders?"

Vast? In Japan? Where did they get their numbers?

never that I witnessed an actual attempted sex crime of an adult to a kid, where here in Tokyo I've already witnessed twice.

You should think on what you never saw but was so bad it got reported to police. When I said "in general" I was referring to the severity of the crimes and not just the number. Either way, documented cases show Japan is nowhere near the top of the list in either.

And the societal pressures that that cause suicide in Japan are obvious and overt. There is not even any need to imagine it must be some dark conspiracy of child abuse. One year at a junior high school with your eyes open should make it abundantly clear why the suicide rate is so high.

Face it. Countries with not only harsh laws concerning anything to do with sex an minors but also harsh social codes have bad records. Its actually not all that mysterious.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

We are talking about crappy manga read by morons here and not Kafka, right? This is the country whose belief in artistic freedom saw the arrest of a woman for making a vagina-shaped canoe. It's tolerance of depictions of sex with children strikes me as odd in comparison. Almost as odd as the people who read this trash.

-Jimizo said it "all" right there. Wouldn't that kind of manga pollute your mind? Perhaps entice their audience? OUTLANDISH. Straight up freakish material.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

The act of having sex with a minor is illegal and disgusting. To me, the mere thought of sexual images of children is also sick, but drawings of it shouldn't be banned because no one is harmed in the making of it, and you can't police people's thoughts and imaginations.

Who knows how many pedophiles there are in the world, but you can't tell them: Don't think about sex with children. You can only tell them: Don't act on it. The rest is up to us to protect our kids from them.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

It is obscene, but it's not involving real minors in sexual acts. Once again the line between reality and fiction has to be clear cut for people that don't quite comprehend it. I've said it many times, if a person is going to act on their fantasy they themselves have a problem mentally.

For those that do have an issue with sexual illustrations, keep in mind it is still a fictional illustration that does not involve real people. If their worried people will act out because of them... grow up. and see my above statement. They'll do it any way regardless of any fictional depictions. Before any of this existed, there were rapists, pedophiles, murderers, etc. Fiction reflects a bit of reality, not the other way around.

5 ( +5 / -1 )

I find it disturbing about how many dislikes responses decrying this "art" as obscene have received. Are their secret pedos on here? It really does lead to a culture where sexual relations with minors is normalized.

-8 ( +1 / -9 )

Let's take it one step should violence in manga and cartoons and movie spinoffs be banned?

This reminds me of the ongoing "witch hunt" against video games and the times when D&D and other RPG were considered harmful.

Yes, there were a few people that couldn't tell reality from fantasy, but that was their mental stage/Sickness, Harry Potter books were also decried by churches.

As was said above it is not real, as for the Vagina Canoe depicting of genitalia is illegal in Japan similar artist also fair poorly overseas. Plus, you should see some of her other artwork.

I like the recent speech of the Dalai Lama, Google it.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

There's a difference between having violence "in" manga and having it be promoted/glorified. I've never seen sexual relations with minors being condemned or spoken ill of. Let's take this further and say what if a manga/anime talked about how stupid black people are and how worthless they are. Would you honestly say "It's just fantasy! It's your responsibility to distinguish between the two" or would you decry it as obscene?

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

I wouldn't t call it obscene but misplaced.

Look at "Little Black Sambo" the book is about an Indian boy( no Tigerx in Africa) but what happened the illustrator depicted him as African.

I see no difference between violence, sexual conduct, etc being glorified. Only Mentally unstable people can't tell the difference.

5 ( +6 / -1 )

OrangeXenon54Jul. 29, 2015 - 06:27AM JST

I've never seen sexual relations with minors being condemned or spoken ill of.

I can't say for sure because I've never read or watched something like that, but I'm going out on a limb here by saying that the adults who are raping the minors in those stories are probably not the "good guy", no?

what if a manga/anime talked about how stupid black people are and how worthless they are. Would you honestly say "It's just fantasy!

Again, the protagonist in a story probably wouldn't be saying something like that.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

To create these drawings, one must have the view of minors/children of being sexy. Pretty sick in my eyes.

1 ( +5 / -4 )

It is interesting to delve into the firm belief that this manga is inherently disgusting and revolting merely for the topic of minors having sex, as opposed to getting killed or raped. But for most of the 1800s, the age of consent was 12 in England and in some places, younger and it was even younger before. The age of consent was raised at the behest of a woman named Josephine Butler, a feminist reformer whom I suspect lost her mind when her 5 year old daughter died falling down the stairs.

What Butler did was pretty much invent yellow journalism in order to raise the age of consent. She did this purely on moral grounds. She wrote a bunch of lies in newspapers and people believed. So now we live in an age where sex and minors are about as common as snakes and spiders as pets and all are judged to be inherently disgusting, creepy, revolting, etc. Coincidence? I think not.

Whatever your moral position, its no relation to any feelings of disgust you have. Those are entirely separate. Some people seem to think they are superior for not being able to distinguish the two. I am embarrassed for the people who put forth that they find this manga disgusting. Not only does it show a weakness of mind, it also shows a serious inability to put forth a credible, logical argument.

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

But for most of the 1800s, the age of consent was 12 in England and in some places, younger and it was even younger before.

Life expectancy in England in the 1800's was below 45 years of age. Try again. And you should be embarrassed with that kind of logic.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Team Player

I don’t understand why apologists like you always use to compare Japan with other countries as defense mechanism. Fortunately Japan is more progressive than other countries so the parents can have the resources to guard the kids 24/7, but it doesn't mean that the sheep are safe from the predators.

Sex abuse on children doesn't always end up as murder/rape, Sexual harrasment has many forms and many cases were not reported as the victims are innocent kids and obviously they don't know how to handle those kinds of situations and they carry and keep it to themselves until they grow up. 30,000 Suicides yearly, there are reasons behind those suicides. How can you assure that all cases of sexual abuse on minors are reported to the authorities? What? because the numbers are low so let's keep it up and allow this sick materials and wait until the cases are high and beat the numbers of other countries' before finally considering to get rid of it?

Men with sexual desires on kids will have difficulty dating adult and normal women, I've seen documentaries where Lolicon men prefer dating kid looking virtual animation girlfriends than real ones, ever wonder why the Japanese population is declining? Don't you think this lolicon issue contributes a lot to the population decline?

Japan is a country with law and regulation to keep balance and order to everyone, having few people with desires to have sex with children brings concerns to parents. Any materials that supports child sexualization fuels their Parishioners to justify their habits! Like what I have written from the previous posts, Children should not be a tool for sexual satisfaction of adults.

You should think on what you never saw but was so bad it got reported to police

Indeed, the 2nd incident I saw at tsutsujigaoka just May this year , me and a salaryman grabbed the guy and called the cops, the first incident , cops and some expectators were already in the scene.

It's shocking to know that there are sick adults having sexual desires on children around us, but I am more shocked that there are people who support this kind sickness...

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Life expectancy in England in the 1800's was below 45 years of age. Try again. And you should be embarrassed with that kind of logic.

FizzBit, you seem to have lost the plot. What you wrote has nothing to do with the sentiment of finding this all disgusting, creepy or revolting today. Back in Victorian times, taking pictures of naked children was a fairly common hobby. The theme was meant to be innocence. Today people look at the pictures and see disgusting child pornography. That is how much times have changed.

You can make an argument out of morality, the greater good and stuff like that. You cannot however make an argument out of personal disgust. If we could, I would insist that natto be illegal along with hairy armpits!

No. Sorry. Its you that should be embarrassed with your lack of logic.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

@Tahoochi Example: Card Captor Sakura has one of her friends, who is TEN YEARS OLD, dating their teacher. Everyone thinks it's "sweet" and "cute". Nothing sexual is shown, but he proposes to her. Even Sakura's mom was Sakura's dad's student when they met and were married. This is an anime aimed at children and, like I said, the main characters are in elementary school. What part of that should be condoned?! There's lots of other cases in other manga/anime (Sailor Moon also comes to mind) where the teacher and the student date and it's seen as something great. That's not a healthy thing to promote, especially to children and other weirdos who might become teachers to live out this "fantasy" that is shown as positive.

-2 ( +2 / -4 )

Card Captor Sakura, written by "Clamp", an all-female group.

Maybe it's like that weird thing where the gay manga readers are mostly female. Certainly it's got that "romance" brushwork going.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Clamp_at_Anime_Expo_2006.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clamp_%28manga_artists%29

Clamp (クランプ Kuranpu?), is an all-female Japanese manga artist group that formed in the mid-1980s. It consists of leader Nanase Ohkawa, and three artists whose roles shift for each series: Mokona, Tsubaki Nekoi, and Satsuki Igarashi. Almost 100 million Clamp tankōbon copies have been sold worldwide as of October 2007.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

I'm more concerned about the minors sweet-talked into porn industry and, as far as I know, I don't see much enthusiasm from the police, who seem to be rather busy with capturing a female manga artist than dealing with human-trafficking.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

Back in Victorian times, taking pictures of naked children was a fairly common hobby.

Yeah right, because everyone and their mother living in the tenements had a camera.

The theme was meant to be innocence.

And you make no distinction between those "family photos" and todays manga and anime?

You're cracking me up!

I wonder what Charles Dickens would have to say to you.

3 ( +4 / -1 )

30,000 Suicides yearly, there are reasons behind those suicides...

There are so many assumptions being made in this paragraph. Japan has a lot of suicides, so you assume that sexual abuse accounts for the difference from worldwide numbers. Then you assume that manga and anime is what led to people becoming abusers.

ever wonder why the Japanese population is declining? Don't you think this lolicon issue contributes a lot to the population decline?

Populations are declining in high-tech, affluent cities across the world. Again you're jumping to conclusions about the cause when there are countless factors involved.

Any materials that supports child sexualization fuels their Parishioners to justify their habits!

Do you think these guys will suddenly become interested in adult women if the manga wasn't available? What if pedophiles that would otherwise avoid contact with people resorted to making their own materials?

I don't like the stuff either, but it's about whether banning something that's harmless on face value would solve any problems. I'm not so sure it would. And like I and others have said, I think the mainstream acceptance of loli involving real minors on TV and media is a much bigger problem than niche anime and manga.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

OrangeXenon54Jul. 29, 2015 - 03:16PM JST

@Tahoochi Example: Card Captor Sakura has one of her friends, who is TEN YEARS OLD, dating their teacher. Everyone thinks it's "sweet" and "cute". Nothing sexual is shown, but he proposes to her.

@OrangeXenon54: Thank you for enlightening me because I really don't know much about manga or anime in general. I see what you are saying about how "unhealthy" your example sounds... 10 years old??? ...maybe they abstain from sex until the student is a consenting adult?

Since this manga (Card Captor) is aimed at kids like you say, I'm assuming that it's somewhat mainstream which would mean that nothing illegal is going to be condoned. As far as I know, romantic feelings between a teacher and student is not illegal (?), but sexual activities would be. With that all said, in reality, if a 10 year-old and a teacher were to date, you know that parents and the school would not allow this. In addition, ALL teachers, including pedophiles are adults and know that it's wrong, and a manga would have little or no influence on their actions.

Besides, if you want "unhealthy", just look at Britney Spears... she was 18 when she made her "Hit me baby one more time" video, strutting around in her skimpy school girl outfit, hips gyrating, with countless (adult) men gawking over her.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Jaws1387

People keep saying 'as long as no one gets hurt', yet it's the sexualization of children, among other things, that lead some people to the conclusion that child pornography, sex abuse don't cause any harm. Children are people, not objects.

Exactly.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

I just like how all the recent news about anti child porn laws were mostly about how evil japanese didn't ban cartoon kids and spent a small paragraph or two mentioning the laws affecting actual child porn distribution.

Maybe it's true, nobody really cares about children.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Team Player

taking pictures of naked children was a fairly common hobby

there is a big difference between taking a photo of a naked child and sexualizing them. I used to be a fine arts major and we painted and drew naked women, men, old people and children. But it was not sexualization. Being naked doesnt mean you are sexualizing, There are lot's of obsene children photos/manga characters that are actually not naked but obviously sexual.

Fizzbit

Yeah right, because everyone and their mother living in the tenements had a camera.

HAHA Very good point!

0 ( +1 / -1 )

noypikantoku- are you stating that you used naked children as subject matter. I sure even 40 years ago there were laws against this type of soliciting of minors. Todays laws would not be allowed it.You will state that it was art for art sake, that we were artist. Did you ever think about the chances of any repercussion on these children mental health.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

John-san

noypikantoku- are you stating that you used naked children as subject matter. I sure even 40 years ago there were laws against this type of soliciting of minors. Todays laws would not be allowed it.You will state that it was art for art sake, that we were artist. Did you ever think about the chances of any repercussion on these children mental health.

Well we were not taking pictures of these minors with sexual poses that will be posted on line and will be sold to R-18 sites, we paint the models inside a closed door studio, no cameras etc. That was for our anatomy class, nothing sexual. Maybe my professor didn't know its illegal, I don't know, I was not the teacher who arranged it, I was just the student who showed up in class, plus it also depends on which country you are from, might be illegal in your country but maybe not on mine, plus this was 13 years ago. Laws and regulations change. But the point is, painting/drawing a naked human being is different from sexualizing.

I assume you can tell the difference in the meanings between the paintings/pictures of naked children cherubs in museums open for all VS children in T-backs (not naked) sucking white popsicle sticks with legs spread wide open sold for adults only?

-2 ( +1 / -3 )

"sexual image of minor" = SICK

however, and without a doubt, "sex" is the healthiest, best thing ever invented in the universe

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Well, they're not Art - let's not just bandy that term around loosely here. Those Stylised cartoons aren't real art. They are skilfully and competently drawn, but not Art.

They aren't my thing - I guess I am conscious of the fact that the people depicted in them are YOUNG, and that doesn't tweak my buttons. They are projections of Adult experience/fantasy to a teenage context, which has an inherent disconnect in my opinion and is laced with a few unsavoury undertones, so, nah, not for me.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

It all depends on context---what a stupid question.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Huh, funny how sexualization of minors is a big issue when the real wolves are lurking in the forests of irresponsibility, dishonesty towards the children, and most of all, the mental attitude of the adults...

Although it isn't art if you depict them in an aggressive manner, which of any abuse is referenced, will cross the threshold line. What i mean by that is in art, it depends. What we want to focus on is the relationship between one on one. It does look pretty as long as they have feelings between the two, they accept it and they know each other.

Yes, ABUSE is intolerable. Having an interest in just sex with a child is also intolerable, because it focuses on the attitude of the person's addiction, otherwise known as being "wired to pleasure" . Pedo's here in Japan are fueled not with the obscenity, but the desire that turns it into obscenity. They don't care whether it is a child. Would it be the look of a child to them indicates something to be toyed with? Not interacted with, nor knowingly "associated" with to something that's positive?

If we focus on ACTUAL HARMONIOUS relationships here in Japan (meaning that both parties do find a common ground for each other), instead of mass-producing everything, avoiding problems and sacrificing things...

-2 ( +0 / -2 )

Would you have those 'images' in your home with your children? Would you bring them to your families homes where their children live? Would you like to see these images in the home of your own young nieces, nephews, cousins, or neighbor's??

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

well, it is not art, it is just obscenity, it only cultivate the idea that somehow we are not humans, we are animals..of course, there is a difference between those two.

and as humans, we know what is right and wrong,,,art itself is also a source of education, not a place to cultivate pervert behavior. creators of manga and anime need to rethink their approach, to move away from portraying sexual images of minors, and putting more emphasis on the stories that can educate the populace, maybe kids stories, Snoopy Doo, Superman, Hercules, Moses, etc

the lack of creativity among manga creators, is part of the reason that they just take the easy road, portraying images of children, so as to attract money, not to educate the audience. or maybe it also shows that they do also have some sort of odd sexual imaginations.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Definitely obscenity. I am utterly disgusted that there are people who voted art. I'm 15 and a csa survivor. People are harmed in viewing these images. I was drawn into anime at age 11 because of how adorable the style was, how it made me feel safe, and like a kid again. However, I vividly remember being barely 13 and accidentally seeing sexualized minors and even fanservice of 11 year olds (No Game No Life manga) when I searched for anime/manga online. I was violently thrown into flashbacks and anxiety attacks, which worsened my mental health.

These images don't just show up in shady parts of the internet. They're everywhere in Japanese media and are incorporated into society. In the popular Soul Eater manga there are disturbingly detailed panty shots(with cameltoe) of 13 year old Maka. (That really jacked me up when I was 12). The age of consent in Japan is 13. Japan only just banned child pornography in 2013. If found in possession of it, you have one year to discard it. Otherwise, you go to jail for a year. One year.

Also, women are not the majority of mangaka who draw lolicon/shotacon. It's grown men.

tl;dr: Portrayal of sexualized minors in mainstream Japanese media can disturb kids/teens and lead them to develop distorted ideas that children are inherently sexual. And also disturb csa victims, like me.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

in addition, children are mean't to go to school, not for the sex industry, or for sexually gratifying the adults..the adults are mean't for their own counterpart, and that is the adult, not children.

of course we are all human beings, not angels or super-humanbeings, we can commit crimes (even against children) or move aside from the normal/standard behavior. and those pervert conducts need to be recognized and addressed.. featuring sexual images of minors is one of such that need to be addressed, not encouraged..and it is a shame to an art profession if manga and anime encourage such insidious ways of thinking,,maybe they should not be called arts, but maybe sex industries..because they encourage such.

japan has alot to offer, think about karate, judo, sumo, aikido, samurai, and the list goes on -- the things that can educate people more about what this society ready to offer, and perhaps on how to defend themselves!

1 ( +2 / -1 )

If those mangas reflect twisted social reality, then they are journalism. They are a tiny part of Japan's advanced sex industry, a product of misogyny and skewed welfare system.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

It isn't art. An art is made out of one's creativity or imagination primarily to be appreciated for its beauty or mainly to endow emotional power to anyone who will view it. "Sexual images of minors, women or not - in Mangas and Animes" do not provide any of the two, but instead disturbing, perverted and unpleasant. I am not fond of mangas or animes yet likewise I do not have anything against it either. Japan is by far the best when it comes to Anime and Manga Art, but this just goes way beyond the norm. It is alarming and obscenely sinuous to brutalize children or youth even only thru images as such in this form of entertainment/pleasure or whatever you call it, it is disgusting. I wouldn't wanna have my kids near any of these unappealing crap. <(`^´)>o(`^´*)

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Obscenity, and harmful to children. Sexualizing them means that there are multiple adults who view it as morally acceptable. Free speech should have its limits.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I agree with TNF13.

When men watch japanese anime, they start to get cravings after staring at the chests of the anime females, then they start getting this sick notion that even though the women protest, they secretly like it.

It's absolutely disgusting is all I have to say.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

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