Which side is more disdainful of the other: Vegetarians or non-vegetarians?

Non-vegetarians think that meat is an important part of an omnivore's diet, and while there is fun poking back and forth its still a "live and let live" situation. Some vegetarians, like Ghandi, didn't eat meat for economic reasons; some modern scientific vegetarians don't eat meat for health food reasons.

Still there is a branch of "Moral Vegetarians" that feel an obligation to not eat meat saying that its cruel to the animals to raise and kill them for that purpose. It is this last group of people that are very hateful to non-vegetarians, while everyone else at least remains civil with each other.

Vegetarians still need to kill other living things to live, so will probably only be truly guilt-free when they can get by on photosynthesis alone. A bit of genetic engineering should do the trick.

Every vegetarian I have ever known has made it clear, either in body language or they way they talk, that they believe their choice is correct and that meat-eating is wrong. Vegetarianism is simply a lifestyle choice, nothing more. There is nothing superior about it.

I've been a vegetarian for 17 years for a variety of reasons. Morality is one of them. Personally I do not care what others eat. I have never made comments to people that enjoy meat from a high horse position. I have only answered peoples curious questions as to why I choose to eat this way. I have had friends that have been quite vocal of their animal rights stance. Most of them never lasted very long from abstaining from meat. But hands down I would say that non vegetarians are more aggressively opposed to vegetarians than the other way around. Vegetarians are a minority and most people feel that the vegetarian diet is a challenge to the status quo and a challenge to all meat eaters out there. I am constantly made to feel uncomfortable in social situations that involve food. I never ask the group to cater to my needs. Sometimes I can only get salad and fries, other times I can get a full Indian meal. It's not that big of a deal but the topic continues to be brought up over and over again. People always poking fun, asking to try meat, telling you you're missing out, questioning your health. I have a sense of humor and I can tolerate the majority of poking but in the end why do you care what I don't eat. I'm sure there are things that you don't eat either. I don't care if you don't brussel sprouts or mushrooms. I'm not missing out from much, there are other food groups out there.

I agree with a lot of what raidensato says. A surprising number of meat-eaters apparently feel threatened by the vegetarian. For some, it's dismay that the food they take pride in preparing is being rejected; for others, it seems to be taken as a personal insult, ie by choosing not to eat meat we are making a moral judgement on those who do - and finding them wanting. Then there are those who simply do not understand; they have no idea what is meat and what isn't. Faced with a vegetarian, they'll happily serve up chicken nuggets and/or tomato sauce flavoured with bacon, blissful in the understanding that the meat is cut up small and so doesn't count.

I never feel uncomfortable in social situations - maybe I'm thicker-skinned than raidensato! - though I have noticed the people around me eating less meat; in a restaurant if we're eating together, they'll tend not to order steaks, but go for something hidden in a sauce (again, the 'if you can't see it, it isn't there' syndrome). The exception is Mr Cleo, who gets no meat at home and takes the chance to fill up on the forbidden fruit when he eats out.

So, for the poll; I don't think non-vegetarians on the whole are so much disdainful of vegetarians as confused/nonplussed/intimidated. As one who in the past used to enjoy eating meat quite a bit, I try not to be openly disdainful of meat-eaters, because I do know what's going on in their minds; but inwardly I do wish they would take stock of what they are doing - and stop doing it. I reason that no one can know what goes on in the meat industry and be happy eating the resulting product. So on the whole I think we veggies are more disdainful, and with reason.

LIve and let live. If someone wants to live without animals being killed due to their life it is their business.

Also true ther other way, but doesn'rt exceuse some slaughtering methods that amount to torture.

Depends on the person.

I'm perfectly happy without meat, but on the other hand the people who complain about tiny bits of bacon in a sauce or fish stock in a soup can be pretty tedious.

It seems pretty obvious to me that the disdain starts with the vegetarians and vegans, though not all are guilty. There are some who are are pretty rabid, but I can't blame them. If I thought it would do any good, I would be downright militant about this issue. But I know it won't help.

So anyway, the disdain from the meat eaters, if there is any (cleo makes some good points that it is something else), is but a reaction to the rabid vegans/vegetarians. And it is compounded by the simple fact that the meat eaters either have no good arguments for what they do and are bitter knowing that because it makes them either 1)ignorant or 2) hypocrites. Hardly anyone likes to accept that they are either one without a fight, so in the end I think it comes out about even.

I am a hypocrite on this issue. I freely admit it. I took up eating meat again a couple years ago. My excuse is that it is VERY hard to avoid meat in this society, though I do still try somewhat. Nobody caters to vegetarians, and I am too lazy to do all the cooking myself. I would pay through the nose for a couple good vegetarian take-out places, and by good I mean delicious and healthful and not wilted leaf salads with no nutritional content.

So anyhow, I cannot vote what I really want, which is that they are equal ind disdain. Another thing to add is the vegetarians/vegans are more vocal but fewer in number, while the meat eaters defending the indefensible are many and can afford to be more low key.

I have no problems with the vegetarians, if I knew someone was a veggie & coming to my place I wud try to accomodate them, no biggie.

But the those that push the we dont eat meat because animals die hard on ya I dont really enjoy if its in yr face, as soon as you point out the being a vegetarian ALSO kills animals most dont want to hear about it, funny that. Thankfully the over the top types arent plentiful.

as soon as you point out the being a vegetarian ALSO kills animals most dont want to hear about it,

Could you explain that? You talking about gelatin, leather, that sort of thing?

What could have possibly inspired a poll like this? Is this a major issue? I do wish Japan Today had provided a third possible answer: "I don't know." The truth be known, I don't know. I have friends who are vegetarians, fisheatarians and meateatarians and we all get on fine.

A famous vegetarian was George Bernard Shaw who lived into his late 90s. When preparing dinners at his home for his meat-eating friends Shaw would write on this invitations, "The corpse is being served at...."

It is a fact that meat-eaters leave a bigger environmental footprint than vegetarians. It is also a fact that humans have been eating meat since the days of the mammoths.

Vegetarianism is dependent on agriculture. So when civilization collapses and we all go back to living in caves, we are going to be hunter / gathers again. This means we'll be meat-eaters first and vegetarians second because of sheer necessity.

But I don't know whether vegetarians are more disdainful of non-vegetarians or the other way around.

Cleo

Why do you inwardly wish meat eaters would take stock of what they are doing - and stop doing it? For example, if I were having a meal with you and you were eating vegetarian, and I was eating steak, I certainly would not be wishing that you were eating meat. It is simply a menu choice. We're simply ordering different things on the menu.

One thing that amuses me about some vegetarians is how their partners grudgingly pretend to be a vegetarian when they are together but then "cheat" when they get the chance. My cousin is like that. He was not a vegetarian until he met his wife, then became one when they are at home or eat out together. However, when he goes on a business trip, he admits that he likes to eat meats (he didn't tell me whether his wife knows or not). I wonder why he just doesn't eat meat at home. That is not love, pretending to be a vegetarian just because his wife is.

What kind of question is this? I know! It's a question designed to make people irritable!

I think most vegetarians don't give a hoot about non-vegetarians and vice versa.

That is not love, pretending to be a vegetarian just because his wife is.

He's not pretending to be a vegetarian. He's accomodating the beliefs of his wife. That's love.

I answered "vegetarians" because in my experience they tend to express disdain towards meat-eaters with far more frequency than non-vegetarians' simple bafflement or bemusement with the concept of not eating meat for any other reason than health-related. Meat eaters really don’t have any moral grounds for why they (we) eat meat. We do it for probably the simplest of human reasons: it tastes good.

But for vegetarians, the reasons for not eating meat include a long list, many of them moral or ethical in nature, a large number with which I agree in principle. Throw morals or ethics into any mix and disdain for those who don't meet your expectations is certain to follow.

Mind you, this doesn't apply to the vast majority of vegetarians at all. Most of my vegetarian friends are entirely copacetic about my dietary choices (there's this one acquaintance of mine, the insufferable little . . .), as I am with theirs - as it should be But it seems to me vegetarians are more apt to apply personal reasons to their decision to forgo meat than we "carnivores."

likeitis

I am more refering to the need to grow veggies somehwere, that somehwere animals will be killed making & working the fields, veggies need to transported, this happems worldwide, the result is animals are killed along the way, hit by trucks, dieing from oil spills/production, clothes we all wear(not leather etc).

Basically it comes down to this, because mankind exists animals among other things take a certain beating from our actions, I acknowledge this happens, some of the we dont want to harm animal types use very narrow blinkers, the simple fact that we exist means plants & animals will die, simple fact of life, which includes death as well.

Sarge

I know the answer to yr question but will leave you guessing ha ha

LFRAgain

Then why doesn't his wife accommodate his wishes? If I was married to a vegetarian, I would be perfectly happy to grill a few chops or whatever and eat that while she was having her vegetarian meal.

I think vegetarians have grounds for disdain whereas meateaters don't. Meat is bad for the environment (takes more land to produce the same amount of calories, manure run-off, increased water usage, deforestation etc) and indirectly causes third world hunger (growing plants, feeding them to cattle and eating the cattle results in far less food).

While eating a small amount of meat may not cause health problems, many meat eaters seem to overeat and are setting themselves up for heart attacks, strokes and unhealthy old age.

So, vegetarians are morally superior and can be disdainful. I try to avoid meat as possible but I must admit it's pretty tasty :-)

Morally superior, would be the reason for this question, I would guess. A inablilty to express yourself different from the moral superior. Vegetarians, for the most part, I find, dont even realize the amount of animal products in some of the things they eat.

I always get a good laugh out of hearing their disdain, and then watching them eat!

I am more refering to the need to grow veggies somehwere, that somehwere animals will be killed making & working the fields, veggies need to transported, this happems worldwide, the result is animals are killed along the way, hit by trucks, dieing from oil spills/production, clothes we all wear(not leather etc).

Oh, ok. So because some will die, mass killing becomes ok. You cannot prevent deaths 100 percent, so you may as well just go nuts with killing and enjoy.

Same can applied to just about anything. People are going die. Accidents happen. So can I now go out and kill whoever I want? After all, I might accidentally hit them with my car anyhow! What's the difference?

the simple fact that we exist means plants & animals will die

Only fruitarians give a hoot if plants die. Please don't drag anything without a central nervous system into this or I might mistake you for a fruity fruitarian.

smartacus -

Why do you inwardly wish meat eaters would take stock of what they are doing - and stop doing it? For example, if I were having a meal with you and you were eating vegetarian, and I was eating steak, I certainly would not be wishing that you were eating meat. It is simply a menu choice.

No, it isn't a simple menu choice, if vegetarianism is based on the morality of not wanting to inflict unnecessary suffering. My not eating meat doesn't harm anyone, while your eating meat is a visible indication of your support of the indefensible meat industry.

Your cousin sounds a bit like Mr Cleo. Lucky him, he gets to eat healthy at home, and lucky her, she has a husband willing to accommodate her beliefs.

Altria -

the people who complain about tiny bits of bacon in a sauce or fish stock in a soup can be pretty tedious.

Sorry you find us tedious. The fact is that while a steak tastes like a steak and has a raison d'etre of its own, the little bits of bacon and fish stock don't actually have that much effect on the taste, and are totally gratuitous. A bit like the gratuitous fur pompoms and hoodie trims we see, compared to a pair of leather shoes; seemingly less, but more reprehensible for being trivial and unnecessary.

likeitis -

In the past couple of years real Indian restaurants have blossomed; if you like spicy food, they're a good place to get real vegetarian food, and the waiters don't look at you like you've got two heads.

GW -

Your argument is one often heard from defensive meat eaters, and a rather lame one. 'Some animals die whether we eat them or not' is surely no excuse for supporting the torture that is a regular feature of the meat industry. Unless you're the Second Coming, you're going to die sooner or later - you might even get run over by a truck transporting cows to market - but that doesn't mean it's OK for anyone to abuse or mistreat you, or kill you. And certainly no excuse for anyone to eat you.

illsayit -

Vegetarians, for the most part, I find, dont even realize the amount of animal products in some of the things they eat.

Perhaps you'd like to enlighten us? Give a few examples.

Vegetarians, for the most part, I find, dont even realize the amount of animal products in some of the things they eat.

Its true, but honestly, whose fault is it that? Have you any idea the amount of study it takes to find out exactly what is in each food out there? Have you any idea how not willing many companies are about releasing certain information?

For years, vegetarians thought they were safe eating McDonald's french fries. Then it was revealed that McDees used beef tallow in the oil they were fried in. This info does not magically appear on your lap you know. It takes a lot of digging. Most meat eaters I know have it pretty easy as they do not make any dietary choices whatsoever. They just eat anything. Vegetarians have to figure out what is in the food, then have to go the extra step of finding replacements. Its not easy, and society and companies are unhelpful IN THE EXTREME. A lot of vegetarians are forced to blaze their own trail through the jungle.

I am looking forward to the seeing the list Cleo has asked you for.

i don't get it why vegetarians complain on meat eaters for killing animals to supplement their diet. do they really know what they are eating. plants, fruits, veggies have tiny microorganisms and bacteria. whether they accept it or not, they are unconsciously killing those living things. if they want to be guilt free. don't eat at all. period. besides just by merely brushing your teeth kills off bacteria out of your mouth too. if you include those, just how much have you killed so far.

Another defensive non-argument from boitoi. 'Unconsciously killing tiny microorganisms' is on the same level as deliberately abusing higher animals? Yeah, right.

If you want to be totally 'guilt-free', not only can you not eat anything, you're not allowed to die either, because you'd be depriving all the microorganisms that live inside your body of a host.

Not that vegetarianism is about 'guilt'. It's about self-respect, as far as I'm concerned, at least.

And yes, still waiting for that list. I hope it's not the old gelatin in cheap 'cream' and fish oil in kashi-pan. Or cochineal in anything. We know about those.

smartacus

Then why doesn't his wife accommodate his wishes?

See my comments about vegetarians and their moral/ethical considerations for the answer to that.

the little bits of bacon and fish stock don't actually have that much effect on the taste, and are totally gratuitous

I beg to differ. Try soba with a dipping sauce of straight soy and suger instead of with dashi. I don't care what dashi it is -- pork, kelp, bonito, shiitake -- but you'll be able to tell. It's hardly gratuitous. I'm sick of vegetarians telling me what things taste like, as if I don't know. As if being an omnivore is exclusive of vegetarian meals, which I also eat.

Vegetarians clearly have more disdain for non-vegetarians. I do agree that food has consequences, and that steak is ethically inferior in many ways, particularly in environmental impact. But if you go that route, then you wouldn't eat any imported fruits or veg, because they have high food-mile values. So...do you eat imported fruits and veg? Bananas, imported mangoes, pineapples. Even the produce sold by local markets is often sourced from overseas.

High 5!-hey whered my other half go?

did somebody ask for examples? umm inarizushi....

i know, i was the worst!

Sarge, Great honest post as usual buddy.

illsayit -

did somebody ask for examples? umm inarizushi....

You think vegetarians don't know about how the inari is seasoned? I thought you'd come up with something more hidden.

Nessie -

Like you say, you know what your food tastes like. That's fine. I know what mine tastes like, and I don't consider the addition of tiny bits of pig (that I'm supposed to ignore because they're cut up small) do anything to enhance what I'm eating. At least with a sonking great steak I can at a pinch push the meat to one side and eat the potatoes; but the tiny bits of pig in the spaghetti sauce are impossible to avoid and make the whole meal inedible.

If 'the environment' is a person's sole reason for being veggie, then I would agree, imported anything is off the menu. You could go so far as to say that anything transported with the help of an internal combustion engine is off limits. As far as I'm concerned being environmentally-friendly is a bonus, not the be-all-and-end-all. So I see no more need to 'go that route' than I see any need to go the 'you mustn't inadvertently kill any microorganism' route.

Once a vegetarian I met at a noodle restaurant in Osaka was upset when I told him that the broth he was dipping his o-soba in almost certainly contained katsuobushi, made from dried fish flakes. Even Chinese stir-fried vegetables use "tori-gara" made from chicken fat to add flavour. Even when one sets rules it is difficult, if not impossible, to abide by them. People who exercise and watch their diet do tend to be healthy, and perhaps this comes from contentment that one is making the effort, rather than from what is ingested -- as long as it's sensible. It is certainly important that all living things be treated with respect, insects and plants included.

the broth he was dipping his o-soba in almost certainly contained katsuobushi

Just about anything Japanese served in a restaurant is likely to have katsuobushi in it somewhere, a fact that makes casual eating out washoku-style a near-impossibility for a vegetarian. Some poor chefs get that deer-in-the-headlights look on their face when you ask for something, anything, with no dashi. Luckily we have the tasty Itameshi and Indian restaurants to fall back on. Veggie tempura with salt and lemon is also quite a reliable eating-out staple. Though you have to beware of the places that sneak a slice of squid or fish in among the goodies.

do they really know what they are eating. plants, fruits, veggies have tiny microorganisms and bacteria.

Is this meant to be a joke? Or has eating hormone laden over-fattened meat finally gotten to the arteries in your brain?

I would have to say that that post is a quintessential reason why many vegetarians are disdainful. What inane crap they have to tolerate!

It is a testament to cleo's patience and generosity that she answered that so nicely.

Again, central nervous system. Please look it up.

This seems to be a pretty silly question.

Anyway, it also seems pretty simple to answer. I think most meat-eaters really don't care about vegetarians, as they eat anything including vegetables. A vegetarian, while also having the potential to not care, is likely more apt to be offended by what's on the table next to him/her, and therefore the person doing the eating.

I've never seen a protest against vegetarians, but I have seen some towards the eating of meat.

I couldn't care either way. Did vegetarianism for a year and it never suited me to well. Taught me a lot, and I don't eat meat like I did way back when, but still. Now, I DO wish there were more vegetarian restaurants around Japan -- as an alternative.

but the tiny bits of pig in the spaghetti sauce are impossible to avoid and make the whole meal inedible.

I certainly sympathize with you, there, Cleo, while contesting that the food would taste the same without those bits.

Which side is more disdainful?

Well...I've never seen anyone leaving a salad bar doused with 1000 Islands while having "broccoli is murder" shouted at them.

Just sayin'.

Taka

lol japanese chefs really don't take to modifying very well. ask for a bowl of udon without the soup and they say they can't I walk them through the process put the noodles in the bowl. ok stop. pass the shoyu and negi. I guess the uncomfortable part comes from when you asked for something modified and it comes out with exactly what you asked to be left out. People think you are picky. I'm not I'll eat anything under the sun that isn't meat. I mean how many people hate natto? Do you ask a bunch of questions why you don't eat it. Probably not.

Its not really vegetarians vs non-vegetarians. Its almost a huge vicious circle of the majority feeling questioned by the minority. And being in the minority you have to constantly be on the defensive. Its quite tiresome to have the same ol discussion over and over again to the reasons why. People will constantly try and pick apart your reasoning. Its like I don't want to talk I want to eat.

So some vegetarians would rather attack than defend. If I show you all the knowledge I researched it will shut you up and I can eat my food. I mean how much research did you do to choose a life of eating meat. Probably zero, it was chosen for you. The more militant about it the chances are these people just don't last. Going on experience alone these people are the ones sneaking porkchops at grandma's house. Perhaps thats why they are so vocal due to insecurities within themselves. If you encounter these people ignore them, just like I ignore the brickheads who repeat mmmmm niiiiikkuuuu (said in a Bob Sapp like nihongo)

Or some vegetarians will just defend when questioned. Which in a way is a losing battle because statistically you are probably the only vegetarian at the business dinner, and you just requested a special meal that makes you look like high maintenance. And people are expecting you to be riding the high horse already. So better be prepared to defend your reasoning while trying not to come off as a peta activist.

Or finally the people that are long term vegetarians like myself. I don't care. I'll give you the shortest, most boring answer possible when questioned and will be so apathetic to the discussion the topic will hopefully change and I can get back to eating.

As for the whole vegetarians still using animal products thing/eating vegetable have a nervous system crap. Realize this, glue/gelatin/bone meal is in almost everything that we use. The thing that keeps our canvas shoes together is most likely bone glue, vinyl, tapes, cds, dvds last I checked also contain animal by products, tires, whether bike tires, bus tires, car tires or skateboard wheels most likely contain animal products. Beer could be brewed using charcoal that came from animals. Are you going to call every beer company to find out what kind of charcoal they use? As long as they don't start slipping cow blood into my IPA I'm straight. And I'm not about to start stitching my own shoes out of rice paper and running a marathon to and from work. I kill mosquitoes but if I can safely deport a unwelcome bug from the house I will. I do the best I can. Which is the point. Perfection in anything is nothing more than an unattainable goal.

It's hard to say. We're all really good at being SOOOO offended by things that we never have top actually face any issues.

Some points to consider:

Circle of life. The lion isn't thinking about how it's wrong to eat meat for lunch. Everything in life is about consuming. Breathing, eating, walking, talking. We can't get away from our consumptive nature. We burn fuel to live.

Lots of people think eating meat is OK because hey, it's in the bible. To me, it just makes me think poorly of the bible. Oh, go ahead and kill a whole bunch of animals because god doesn't seem to have the self esteem to realize his creatures are imperfectly designed.

People currently have very little responsibility for their meat eating. The meat comes already cooked in restaurants and it neat little packages that don't resemble anything as disgusting as a meat factory. People don't have to think about the horrific conditions animals generally have to live in.

People are freaking cheap and would rather pay $1 less for pork chops from farms that stack the pigs so they defecate all over one another and never see the light of day. And no, being poor doesn't count. You could not buy the 2 L of coke or bag of doritos and make some smart and non-cruel meat-eating decisions.

Most people don't stop to realize that we don't have to eat meat at every meal. We take meat for granted. Eating meat means taking a life. But eating vegetables means killing as well (though I know it isn't the same thing.) We need to show respect for everything in our lives. We need to consume to exist, but we don't have to treat other creatures and flora like it is there simply for us to use and abuse.

PS. I am NOT a vegetarian, but am trying to cut back on my Western meat-meat-meat mentality. Perhaps we should stop creating another generation of meat eaters and teach children that there is a balance and respect that is needed.

Vegans distainful of people who eat meat? No kidding! The post by nausicaa is a case in point. Even if he is a vegetarian wanna be. You know nausicaa, just because I disagree with you doensn't mean that I haven't considered some of your points. I don't consider an animal life to be equivalent to a humans. I think doing so is simplistic. I don't typically eat meat more than once a day but that's just keeping the weight off stuffing myself with celery. My decision. Then again I hunt and do my own butchering and make my own sausage so I'm a bit closer to it than average. It's a decision I've made. Stop being condescending.

But you can't even get away from the vegans on the web. There are even vegans bloging on the CR4 engineering site trying to make a case for veganism as an engineeing principle. Heaven help you if you don't agree. Just like any other religion I would like the vegans to leave me alone and go be "enlightened" with the other fanatics.

The hard, cold truth about vegeterianism is that if you tried to get everybody to eat only veg a lot of the people in the world would starve. There simply isn't enough protein to go around based on farming plants alone. If you can afford irrational behavor fine, go be happy. But leave the rest of us out of it.

Nausicaa and Raidensato,

Do [people] ask a bunch of questions why you don't eat [natto?]

Every single time.

Lots of people think eating meat is OK because hey, it's in the bible.

Umm... No.

I think your posts above perfectly illustrate the overwhelming results of this poll. Just sayin'. ;-)

I fail to see how my post illustrates anything related to the poll. I don't care about people that eat meat it's their choice. Giving lectures on why someone's diet is morally wrong won't win over anyone to convert to a vegetable diet.

I have never seen anyone on either side throwing anything at the other. Both sides could care less about the other. One of my nephews is a Vegan and has no problem with the rest of us.

To be honest, this was the funniest poll I have seen lately. No one had anything to do over the weekend?

Is this even a question, vegetarianism or more to the point veganism is like a religeon to some and they see carnivores as evil. Personally I could care less what you do or don't eat, just don't push your beliefs on me.

ca1ic0cat -

if you tried to get everybody to eat only veg a lot of the people in the world would starve. There simply isn't enough protein to go around based on farming plants alone. If you can afford irrational behavor fine

Actually it's the other way round. It takes nine kilos of plant protein to produce one kilo of meat protein, not to mention the huge amounts of water needed and the mountain of toxic waste produced. Irrational behaviour is trying to feed the world by dumping most of your available protein in the stomachs of animals.

raidensato -

Overall very good post.

And being in the minority you have to constantly be on the defensive. Its quite tiresome to have the same ol discussion over and over again to the reasons why.

That isn't my experience. I find it's the meat-eaters who get defensive (as we've seen in this thread) - they see vegetarianism as a criticism of their own choices, and something they can't cope with (even though they're not being asked to go vegetarian themselves). They try to trash the idea of not eating meat using everything from What About the Microorganisms/Tomatoes have Feelings Too, through But People Have Always Eaten/Need to Eat Meat to Just Don't Push Your Beliefs On Me. It's very rarely anyone will respond with 'You don't eat meat? OK, fine,' and just let you get on with your meal.

Restaurants come in three types; those who refuse to accommodate vegetarianism because they have a narrow-minded pride in their menu and see any change as a compromise, but maybe they'll grudgingly give you a salad; those who are clueless, chop the bacon up small and/or think it's OK to serve fish or chicken (because vegetarians don't eat beef, right?); and those who have confidence in their culinary skills, see the request for vegetarian food as a challenge and come up with some really great dishes. The last type are the ones to frequent, or course. The first two aren't worth the bother.

if you tried to get everybody to eat only veg a lot of the people in the world would starve. There simply isn't enough protein to go around based on farming plants alone. If you can afford irrational behavor fine

What cleo said. And let me introduce you to fruits, grains, and nuts. Yeah, vegetarians eat those too. Some even eat eggs and cheese and butter!

Irrational behaviour is bad. But its not nearly as bad as being ignorant.

Again, this is a perfect example of the ridiculous crap vegetarians have to deal with. This sort of ignorance is simply intolerable. (Except for that model of patience named cleo).

Is this meant to be a joke? Or has eating hormone laden over-fattened meat finally gotten to the arteries in your brain?

no, this is the effect of a protein deprived brain that failed to function properly. as others have said, being vegetarian is just a menu of choice. if you choose to eat that way, that's fine with us. the problem is when vegetarians start whining on non-vegetarians. look, we don't care whether you eat plants, animals or insects. but you have to accept the fact that we humans are biologically designed to be omnivorous. from your teeth down to your intestines. its biology. its the law of nature, we eat to live. in turn, when you die, you will then return to soil where the worms and the plants your eating will then feed on you. its a never ending cycle.

They try to trash the idea of not eating meat using everything from What About the Microorganisms/Tomatoes have Feelings Too, through But People Have Always Eaten/Need to Eat Meat to Just Don't Push Your Beliefs On Me. It's very rarely anyone will respond with 'You don't eat meat? OK, fine,' and just let you get on with your meal.

I ask what their grounds are because if I'm cooking for a vegetarian I want to know how strict to be and what their principles are. I don't want to have to ask "do you this"? This? This? Because then I sound even more like an inquisitor. I think the reason for the questions is that so many vegetarians, like so many people in general (particularly the misguided omnivore above who advocates meat to prevent world hunger!) are irrational.

My friend won't eat lamb since she saw them frolicking in a field. Too cute to eat. One vegetarian I was cooking for said "I don't eat anything with eyes." Gosh was she bummed to learn that clams have eyes. Her solution: Pretend they don't have eyes. Pasta with clam sauce coming up!

Nessie -

I'm not talking about people who are asking what you do and don't eat because they want to feed you and make you happy. I'm all for that! I'm talking about the ones (like we've seen on this thread) who simply see vegetarianism as an implied criticism of their own lifestyle (which I suppose it is, in a way) and for some reason are not happy at the thought of someone else actually thinking about what they eat and acting on those thoughts. If I give as the reason for my vegetarianism my opinion that the meat industry is cruel, then I'm directly accusing meat-eaters of cruelty. It's no wonder they get defensive.

Your lamb-loving friend is still on the threshold of vegetarianism. One of the things that got me going (though there were/are many factors) was a discussion about people who eat dogs - unforgivable, barbaric, how could they, I ranted. Someone asked me what was the difference between a dog and a lamb, or a dog and a calf, and I had no answer. The only logical, rational answer that I could see was to keep anything with a central nervous system and the ability to experience pain and fear, off my plate.

Clams were never on my plate even when I was a meat-eater, coz they're nasty squishy things that filter sea water.

I voted that vegetarians are more disdainful, for 2 reasons.

First, because I know a vegetarian/vegan (he alternates) who is forever yapping on about being one, making sure people know it (and this is in the UK, where there is a LOT more appreciation of the vegetarian lifestyle). He carries his own cup, pots and pans and cooking utensils with him when he goes somewhere, lest someone cooks for him using a pan soiled with the essence of meat...

Secondly, because of the number of people in japan who bitch about 2Oh I told the chef to mek it my way and they didn't listen and they brought me the wrong thing" etc.

I have to say that I think this is all melodramatic nonsense. I don't care what your dietary habits are, but if they'e so strict that you can't leave the house or eat out without a massive hullaballoo about your dinner, there's more wrong than your bowel movements.

Order something else. Go to a vegetarian restaurant - there are more and more cropping up. Have a dinner party. Do something other than rag on how unfair the meat-eating world is.

I am a meat-eater by the way. And I smoke and drink too.

Cleo, yeah, I hear ya. Makes sense. (And I would eat dog.)

I actually heard an interesting argument: Assuming that waste is wrong, isn't it our moral imperative to eat our pets after they die?

Clams were never on my plate even when I was a meat-eater, coz they're nasty squishy things that filter sea water.

So's kelp. If you'd ever had my vongole bianco, you'd know how very misguided you are. ;)

PS - Of course I realise how disdainful I sound in the above post, so go ahead and vote against me!

Assuming that waste is wrong, isn't it our moral imperative to eat our pets after they die?

Yes, but don't eat the green wobbly bit.

Maria: I don't care what your dietary habits are, but if they'e so strict that you can't leave the house or eat out without a massive hullaballoo about your dinner, there's more wrong than your bowel movements.

Something is wrong all right, you just chose the wrong thing. Society is wrong for making it so difficult to be a vegetarian that vegetarians have to work so hard due to the laziness and carelessness of others.

no, this is the effect of a protein deprived brain that failed to function properly.

At least you admit it. I recommend eating more peanuts and other nuts, soybeans and cheese.

the problem is when vegetarians start whining on non-vegetarians

Sorry if we ruined your day by pointing out things like the horrific conditions of feedlots and slaughterhouses, how the beaks of chickens are ripped off so they can be kept in overcrowded conditions without killing each other, how high concentrations of animal waste from overcrowding animals pollutes our water supplies and requires the animals to be pumped full of antibiotics or become a hotbed of disease, how they are fattened using large amounts of hormones, and how so many of those things affect us but you just don't want to hear of it or think you have some responsibility or might suffer some serious consequences for not paying attention.

Remember how your mother used to whine on you about how you should look before crossing the street? Why did she have to bother you with such nonsense? You were happier not having to worry.

Poll says it clear, its veggietarians doing all the hating.

Stop the hate! Say NO to disdainful foodies.

Actually if you're eating a well-balanced, varied diet, either vegetarian or non-vegetarian, you're probably getting more than enough protein. All the average adult needs is 1.2~2 gm per kilo of body weight a day - easily obtainable from grain-based foods, dairy, legumes etc. If you're eating meat on top of that you're likely getting much more protein than your body needs. If you're lucky the surplus will be stored as fat to be burned off as necessary; if you're not, it gets stored as uric acid and you end up with gout. Not to mention the excess fat you're likely to take in on a meat-heavy diet and the problems that causes with clogged arteries and heart disease.

But don't let me put you off that fried chicken leg.

Actually if you're eating a well-balanced, varied diet, either vegetarian or non-vegetarian, you're probably getting more than enough protein.

If it's well balanced, then you're not getting more than enough of anything. You're getting just enough of everything.

Personally I find both equally disdainful. That is why I eat rocks and gravel.

If it's well balanced, then you're not getting more than enough of anything. You're getting just enough of everything.

Not possible. If you are not getting more than enough of just about everything, then you are not getting enough of something. The body deals better with surpluses than deficits anyway, and unfortunately fruits and vegetables don't grow with a balanced and precisely amounted human diet in mind.

Nessie's nit-picking again. :-)

The body deals better with surpluses than deficits anyway

Depends what it's a surplus of - cholesterol, refined white sugar, salt, alcohol....

Assuming that waste is wrong, isn't it our moral imperative to eat our pets after they die?

Well, if you're going to go there, isn't it our moral imperative to eat our friends too when they shuffle off this moral coil?

Our pets are our friends.....

Gotta watch out for kuru disease if you're eating your human friends, though.

Moderator: Everybody back on topic please.

Vegetarians - people who eat what "food" eats. If you want to be a vegetarian - go for gold, I admire those who really stick to their guns especially in Japan. Though don't expect me to go out to dinner with you, one of my pet peeves is dining in Japan with vegetarians: for more trouble than it's worth. Most vegetarians I know keep their opinions to themselves anyway, we agree to disagree and are friends for reasons other than 'food'. Actually being a meateater is hard in Japan - so much low quality crap meat - I eat a lot less than I used to. I wish I could head off into the mtns with a rifle and get some real meat - fresh wild meat, but alas.

Maria: You stand about where I do. When people go to such lengths to prove their veganism it gets annoying. I knew people like this that would make a huge deal about how my kitchen was contaminated because I had prepared meat in my pots and pans at some point in time. Friends of friends who needless to say are not welcome in my house for dinner. I will not be shamed by unappreciative fanatics. Eat what you want but when you oush it to far you deserve to be hated on by rational people.

Sorry if we ruined your day by pointing out things like the horrific conditions of feedlots and slaughterhouse

Not everyone eats meat grown in those types of conditions; wild venison(hunted from over populated areas),free range eggs, milk and meat. Vegetarians are ok but some vegans are the same as Jehovah's Witnesses and Street preachers. I know where cows and chickens are primarily grown, the ethical problems it creates and that I could be perceived as being evil for eating it but being told it repetitively with a fanatical zeal, makes them come of as overly judgemental and disdainful.

Vegetarians make it somewhat difficult when ordering food for staff parties especially when ordering pizza. We normally have to order several vegetarian style because of the different tastes of the individuals. The vegetarians I know typically will not pick off anything they do not like whereas the meat eaters will.I have known of at least one vegetarian to complain of cross contamination and she refused to pick off the offending vegetable. We usually have more left over vegetarian style pizzas. The pizzas with meat are the first to go and usually there are no left overs. We have a soup day where I work and sometimes there are problems on that day also but not as bad as pizza day.

This is a dumb question.

Moderator: How about explaining why you think it is a dumb question? That's what the discussion board is for.

Depends what it's a surplus of - cholesterol, refined white sugar, salt, alcohol....

I do not think there is such a thing as a deficit of alcohol or refined white sugar.

I mean of necessary things. I don't think you will do well without just enough salt or necessary cholesterol. You will die pretty quickly I expect. However, from the point of just enough to the point of overdose is a pretty big surplus you will be able to tolerate much better.

Anyway, glad to have you here Cleo patiently pumping out so many facts. I was recently accused of being militant on this board. I can't deny it.

OhioDonna -

Vegetarians make it somewhat difficult when ordering food for staff parties especially when ordering pizza.

I'm sorry we make it difficult for you at your office parties. But good on you for trying to cater to everyone's tastes. I find pizza is one of the easier menu items to deal with; a simple Marguerita has no dead bits in it, and other pizzas can be easily vegetarianised with a simple 'no ham/pastrami/whatever on that one, please'. In fact when we go en famille to visit the MIL, she gets round the cooking-for-veggies problem by ordering pizza and letting everyone choose their own toppings. And with us it's the with-meat leftovers that MIL has to deal with, because CleoSon gobbles up all the veggie food like a high-powered vacuum cleaner.

I avoid soup in catering situations, since even so-called vegetable soup likely has a chicken-stock base, and you can't just pick it out.

Good Jorb-

Not everyone eats meat grown in those types of conditions (the horrific conditions of feedlots and slaughterhouse)

By far the vast majority do. if you buy meat in a shop or a restaurant you can be sure it arrived there via horrific conditions. The 'I only eat what I kill with my own hand, and I do it humanely after ensuring the animal has had a pampered life of luxury, freedom and happiness' meat-eater is even less typical than the 'I carry my own pots and pans with me to avoid meat contamination' vegan that upsets Maria and usaexpat so much (and who I admit is a bit of a pain - or, I imagine, would be if I ever met him).

likeitis -

I do not think there is such a thing as a deficit of alcohol or refined white sugar.

lol so you're not a tippler, huh? :-)

I understood what you meant. Of course you can't have a deficit of alcohol and other stuff, but you can most certainly have a surplus, and the body doesn't always deal with it well. And a modern, eat-anything meat-based diet is virtually guaranteed to contain a surplus of cholesterol, refined white sugar and calories.

I don't think you will do well without just enough salt or necessary cholesterol. You will die pretty quickly I expect

HUH?

necessary salt/cholesterol?

says who? perhaps you are thinking of iodine for the thyroid. but there is no need for salt beyond taste.

as for cholesterol your liver produces enough for your body without the need for it through diet. I don't think anyone has a problem with too little cholesterol the problem is too much of it.

I'm a vegetarian. I think of it as a personal choice and I have no interest in converting others or in being converted.

The social aspects of eating/dining make my lifestyle choice somewhat difficult or awkward at times. Those problems are magnified here since I don't speak much Japanese. But I try my best to plan ahead, be courteous to others and find solutions with which I am comfortable. Sometimes I am successful and sometimes I'm not. Live and learn...fail and laugh.

Whenever it becomes apparent to other diners that I'm a vegetarian, the questions / accusations come flying. "Why don't you eat meat?" "Do you wear leather?" "Don't you realise that plants are living things too?" "Would you kill to eat on a desert island?" "How about eggs?" "The animal was reared to eaten, so it's ok" "The animal is already dead, you should respect it by eating it so that its life was not in vain" (heard the last two several times in Japan!)

I try to answer politely, while attempting to nudge the conversation away from my personal choices. But for some reason, the meat-eaters just can't leave the subject alone, and the conversation often ends up along the line of "Well, I love meat, so don't push your beliefs onto me" at which point I sigh and check the beer menu.

I've never interrogated a meat-eater on their choices, nor have I seen any other vegetarians do so (at mealtimes at least...)

So the answering this survey was pretty straightforward for me.

but there is no need for salt beyond taste.

There is no need for added salt, almost always. Salt is an electrolyte you would die without. But certainly, you do not need to worry about mining it to put on your food. But, depending on your diet, you might have to consider it.

as for cholesterol your liver produces enough for your body without the need for it through diet.

I am no expert on that, which is why I qualified my statement. Anyway, you are right. Dietary intake of cholesterol is not necessary. But still you would die without it, that was all I said, but yes, the assumption was you need to eat it.

But thankfully, yes, it seems the liver produces it enough so long as you ingest enough calories.

Moderator: Back on topic please.

I agree with taiko666 mostly bacause of the Slingbox info and people should mind their own business about veggies.

My mate in Britain is veggie, so if he came round for an evening, i would make a veg curry, have some chapatis adn veg samosas and of course beers.

It is a lifestyle choice and if it's one of your family or mates you should respect that. It only takes a little effort to be understanding and not cynical.

taiko 666

That is basically the point I was trying to illustrate in previous posts. My experience with coworkers, friend's family members, new acquaintances, in regards to not eating meat always goes through the same standard questions. Which after giving your reasons and are pressed about them if you begin to defend your stance somehow gets turned into pressing your beliefs onto someone else. I find it tiring, I'm not trying to win over converts. My food or beer is calling my name and people's insecurities mean little to me.

Perhaps the topic of ones diet should be added to the list of things you shouldn't discuss with friends. Religion politics and money. That way I don't need to hear it and meat eaters don't need to listen the vegan preachers.

Evangelizing proponents from both sides are really annoying, harassing, perturbing gnats. Outliers should realize that most people are not like them and, while they should not cave-in or yield to the mainstreamers, should know the reality they live in. Live and let live --but don't be an ar** about it. I loathe the zealotry in the ardent rare-steak eating dolts as much as in the fervent fake-meat eating vegans. Make do and be flexible -don't over-impose your exception on others. I mean, I'm not against people having their outlying beliefs and being proponents of what they think is proper but be civilized about it. It's easier to accept things when people present their preferences without having to underscore them or show how different and special they are.

Vegetarians are more disdainful of non-vegetarians. Usually this is the result of some dillusional sense of superiority and righteousness, blind to the reality that their pseudoreligious fanaticism is in fact biased towards life forms they consider "precious" while ignorning that the raw lettuce their eating may actually be responding in a manner equivalent to screaming. It's extremism simply using food as an excuse. Omnivarians are far more tolerant as we don't preach or talk down.

I know quite a few vegetarians and we're all of the 'put up and shut up' types just so that we can get along with meat-eaters. I don't think any of them try and preach to others. It's not as if I go round knocking on strangers' doors and telling them what not to eat. Before I even mention the word 'vege...', some people get all defensive as if something's been thrusted up their backsides. I couldn't give a damn what people eat, but I'd just wish they'd let me eat in peace. Most Japanese are quite nice about it, but the Chinese can be the worse. I once had dinner with a group of friends. The two friends next to me decided to over vegetable dishes because they thought it might give me more choice, but then one annoying girl said 'Well I'm going to order meat' in a sarcastic way.

It's not easy in Japan, but former vegetarians who say 'Oh it's hard, so I stopped' just never really had it in their hearts to be vegetarians. What many people misunderstand is that being a vegetarian is not about being perfect (everything you do will involve the death of animals in this modern world). It's about minimizing the use of animals. Sure, there are times when I might have soba with fish stock in the soup, or bread which has milk and eggs, etc. I wish these food were vegan, but this is Japan and you don't have as many choices compared to places like US and UK. But I think Japan is getting better. There are more and more vegetarian-friendly foods (for Cleo, there are 4 vegan soups made by Kewpee), and vegetarian festivals, etc.

In short, I have no qualms (and no choice) about eating with meat-eaters at the same table, but I'd wish they'd respect other people's way of lifestyle.

People like OssanAmerica: I do wonder whether you've met vegetarians or whether you're just jumping on the bandwagon. This 'plants are living creatures' argument is childish, and makes you look absolutely desperate, clinging onto baseless arguments, trying to justify your dislike of people different to you.

Well, I've got to go take my plants out for a walk.

Sorry Pukey but you're way off base. I've met vegetarians. Since the 70s. All sorts in varying degrees. And I certainly have no dislike of people who are "different" from me, just those who feel compelled to force their own beliefs unto others. And my lettuce comment was only to show how selective and biased this caring for animals crap really is. Trust me, I'm not desperate, I'm well fed. Frankly, Vegans are people who have never truly suffered in extreme conditions, poverty, survial situations, war zones and have the luxury of "choosing"" what they can eat or not eat. The vast majority of humans on this planet don't have that luxury. To me, Vegans are like fat housewives driving poor mileage SUVs with TVs in them, or the guy in the supermarket trying to decide between the liver flavored dog food or the cheese flavored dogfood. All people who have lost touch with "the rest of the world" who are grateful for every meal they can get.

OssanAmerica: your comments are perhaps the most disdainful of any comments in this thread thus far. Yet you claim that vegetarians are more disdainful.

just those who feel compelled to force their own beliefs unto o

If you've bothered to read the thread, you'll understand that this is not what vegetarians do. How exactly have vegetarians forced their beliefs on to you? By responding to your questions / interrogations / insults when you've attacked them for being vegetarians?

selective and biased this caring for animals crap really is

Insulting rubbish. An argument equally as pathetic as "vegetarians are hypocrites because they may have stepped on an ant in their lives." which I've heard before. People like you aggressively pontificate on issues like this from an 'all or nothing' standpoint- your own choice being of course 'nothing'. I assume you've given some money to charity? Hey, but you've still lots more money you can give surely? Hypocrite! If everybody adopted your thinking, they'd be no charity work, no striving for improvement, no progress at all in the world.

Frankly, Vegans are people who have never truly suffered in extreme condition

Complete tosh. A ludicrous and completely irrelevant generalisation. And try telling that to the millions of Hindu vegetarians living in tiny villages in rural parts of India.

and have the luxury of "choosing"" what they can eat or not eat

So what? Are you saying you never make food choices? Do you choose what you eat? Do you make choices between steak or ham? Do you have your own favourite brand of sausgage?

Your post is hypocritical to the point of farce.

Ah, but by responding to your insulting comments, you'll probably say I'm 'forcing my beliefs on to you.'

this caring for animals crap

There's not really much point trying to discuss anything with someone who comes out with such ....crap.

Hell, now he's gone and made me swear, damn him.

taiko666 -

It's no wonder vegetarians are disdainful of people who spout the rubbish Ossan comes up with. But good post by you.

Vegans are people who have never truly suffered in extreme conditions, poverty, survial situations, war zones and have the luxury of "choosing"" what they can eat or not eat.

And that is somehow bad? Are you living in extreme conditions, poverty, survial situations, war zones, unable to choose what you eat? And does it somehow make you a better person? But kudos to you for managing to crawl your way to a computer in the midst of those extreme conditions.

Vegans are like fat housewives driving poor mileage SUVs with TVs in them, or the guy in the supermarket trying to decide between the liver flavored dog food or the cheese flavored dogfood.

Meanwhile the fat cats stuffing grain and hormones down the throats of beef cattle in order to produce cheap hamburgers and gyudon are benefitting the environment and making the world a better place for 'the rest of the world'? If you want to feed the poor of the world, you need to concentrate on giving them the grain you've grown, instead of feeding it to animals for the enjoyment of the rich.

OssanAmerica: your comments are perhaps the most disdainful of any >comments in this thread thus far. Yet you claim that vegetarians are >more disdainful.

taiko & cleo Looks like the truth hurts. You two have proven my point.

taiko & cleo Looks like the truth hurts. You two have proven my point.

You got a home goal, Ossan. I voted that vegetarians are more disdainful. No wonder.

after reading all the comments it seems the non veggies. i like my meat if it is a tortured KFC chicken or a chemical bigmac it taste good, Alcohol and smoking is also unhealthy in excess, but it seems that a lot of people still die of old age consuming these things

while ignorning that the raw lettuce their eating may actually be responding in a manner equivalent to screaming.

Uh, no. I think everyone has considered the, uh, "possibility". But since there is no proof of this, no reason whatsoever to believe it, most of us have written the idea off as "silly beyond being worth even mentioning". The squealing of a pig being killed is however very easily recognized by anyone with a functioning set of ears and wetware between them as screaming, a result of pain, and full awareness that they are being killed.

And that is to say nothing of the horrible conditions in which they are usually raised.

But as cleo points out, even if you are a selfish barbaric person who cares not for the pain and grief and horror of animals, if you feel that every human deserves to be fed, and there should be enough to go around, and that we need to stop the pollution and environmental degradation caused by factory animal farming and slaughter, then vegetarianism is the way to go.

And it is perfectly understandable for vegetarians to be angry and vocal as the planet the meat industry is polluting also belongs to them.

I guess I'm one of those "selfish barbaric" people who doesn't care for the pain and grief and horror of animals, (can anyone say, "anthropomorphism"?,) because, bluntly, I don't. I like meat.

As for this argument that one should turn vegetarian if they care about every human being fed and there being enough to go around, this is a strawman argument. There's already more than enough to go around. Those who are starving live in areas where the political situation prevents food aid from getting to them, not a lack of food to be made available to them. That's a situation won't be changed by a change in diet.

As for pollution and environmental degradation caused by the meat industry, I gotta wonder where all that wonderful fertilizer that helps us grow our crops in such abundance would come from without it?

I do buy meat from the grocery store, but prefer meat from free range ranchers in the area, and since they're cattle roam free all year before being rounded up for the market and eat grass, which people can't eat, I guess I get a bit of a pass for THOSE cows I eat, right? (Although my preference is mainly a matter of personal preference for the taste, and has nothing to do with the morality of it all, so maybe not... LOL)

C'mon, folks... This is a silly argument. The vegetarians on here are proving the point by passing judgement on the meat eaters as somehow immoral, though they do ignore the simple fact that our digestive systems are designed, either by nature or by design, to digest meat. I don't see the logic in damning other people for eating meat unless one is also going to damn other omnivores for the same thing.

I don't care if you are a vegetarian or like your meat raw. Just leave me to my dietary choices in the same way that I leave you to yours.

GilaMonster: this thread is bound to throw up some tough talking (although it follows the same routine of meat-eater baits veggie, veggie responds, meat-eater is full of righteous indignance.) But in the 'real world', vegetarians just want to eat their meal without being interrogated / insulted along the lines I mentioned in an earlier post. Think about it. Try some empathy (you say you have none for animals, but what about people?) Why would veggies routinely criticise meat-eaters? It would mean every meal time is a war. Whereas meat-eaters only rarely encounter veggies at mealtimes, and so seem happy to wade in with a whole load of totally unnecessary and destructive comments.

though they do ignore the simple fact that our digestive systems are designed

What do you mean ignore? Are you suggesting that vegetarians think they're physically unable to eat meat? Your digestive tract is perfectly capable of processing slugs, so why aren't you a slug-eater? This line of argument is in the 'screaming lettuce' category, the last refuge of those who are unwilling or unable to discuss the real issues.

in the same way that I leave you to yours

If only that were the case. But unfortunately, a veggie eating with a roup of meat-eaters is almost certain to be 'questioned'- and then accused of 'damning' hyper-sensitive meat-eaters by simply answering those questions.

I guess I'm one of those "selfish barbaric" people who doesn't care for the pain and grief and horror of animals, (can anyone say, "anthropomorphism"?,) because, bluntly, I don't.

At least you know who you are.

Those who are starving live in areas where the political situation prevents food aid from getting to them, not a lack of food to be made available to them.

There are many reasons why people are hungry (not necessarily starving), and hunger is a serious problem. Part of the problem is wasting grains and all the lands used to grow the grains on feedlot animals.

Admittedly, meat eating does not contribute to hunger that much right now, as it is other things responsible for most hunger. But it becomes more serious every year. In a world of six billion and counting, we had be start being more preemptive in solving our problems.

As for pollution and environmental degradation caused by the meat industry, I gotta wonder where all that wonderful fertilizer that helps us grow our crops in such abundance would come from without it?

There is a difference between sustainable and useful levels of urine and feces in one area, and living in muck. Raw sewage is a problem, the more concentrated, the worse it is. You do not want it in your rivers and ground water. Nature needs time to break it down and keep the levels of harmful bacterias down. The less concentrated the better.

And it hardly stops there. Things like avian flu become epidemic thanks to the feedlot conditions.

though they do ignore the simple fact that our digestive systems are designed, either by nature or by design, to digest meat.

Hardly. Even a deer can digest fish. It does not put deer on the level of bears.

Anyway, its been addressed. You have no claws to catch game, no fangs to rip raw flesh, and your intestines are not so short as real carnivores. Just because we can do something does not make it natural nor right.

I don't see the logic in damning other people for eating meat unless one is also going to damn other omnivores for the same thing.

I don't see the logic in dragging other animals into this. We are supposed to be the intelligent foresighted ones. Also, it is we who are overpopulating, overgrazing, overfishing and overfarming the planet.

Just leave me to my dietary choices in the same way that I leave you to yours.

It like saying "I speed on the roadway, but you don't. Lets leave each other alone. I will speed and be happy. You drive the limit and be happy." And you are calling other people's arguments silly? There are consequences to our meat eating culture, and its getting more excessive and problematic all the time.

But unfortunately, a veggie eating with a roup of meat-eaters is almost certain to be 'questioned'- and then accused of 'damning' hyper-sensitive meat-eaters by simply answering those questions.

Yep. Its true.

taiko666,

But in the 'real world', vegetarians just want to eat their meal without being interrogated / insulted along the lines I mentioned in an earlier post.

That hasn't been my experience. While I've not known a lot of vegetarians, all but one tried to convert me away from meat without me passing any judgment on their dietary choice. If there are people who give vegetarians a hard time, they're just as wrong as these vegetarians I've run into.

Your digestive tract is perfectly capable of processing slugs, so why aren't you a slug-eater?

I'm not a slug-eater because I don't care to eat slugs or snails, just as vegetarians don't care to eat meat, for whatever reason they may have. My point is that we are designed, again by nature or design, to eat meat which points to the flaw in the argument that doing so is somehow immoral.

a veggie eating with a roup of meat-eaters is almost certain to be 'questioned'- and then accused of 'damning' hyper-sensitive meat-eaters by simply answering those questions.

I've got to wonder why? Were I in the position of the vegetarian, I'd respond to a question simply by saying, "I don't like meat." If questioned further, I'd ask, "Does it affect you in any way?"

I suspect that these "hyper-sensitive meat-eaters" when asking why someone wouldn't eat meat, (which they no doubt enjoy very much,) are simply curious, and end up hearing about how immoral it is to eat meat. If this is the case, the defensiveness of the carnivores would be understandable.

While I have known folks that will give vegetarians a hard time, (usually in jest, but occasionally just to get under their skin,) they are few and far between, (at least in my area.) Most, like me, don't care what others eat.

GilaMonster -

Were I in the position of the vegetarian, I'd respond to a question simply by saying, "I don't like meat."

So vegetarians should lie in order to spare the feelings of meat-eaters? I don't not eat meat because I 'don't like it'. I don't not eat it for the same reasons I don't wear fur, or pull the legs off spiders, or set kittens on fire, or poke my dog's eyes out.

the defensiveness of the carnivores would be understandable.

As we've seen on this thread, the meat-eaters (they're not carnivores - most eat their greens too, and mop the gravy up with bread) do get very defensive, because that's what people do when they think they're being criticised. And even if the vegetarian doesn't get all evangelistic (I try not to, but sometimes a meat-eater can get pretty militant), 'I don't eat meat because I think it's cruel' is an indirect criticism of the meat-eater. And obviously a good number of meat-eaters subscribe to the idea that offense is the best defence.

I think in future I'm going to call a desperate argument based on nothing 'the Screaming Lettuce Argument'. Thank you, taiko666. And likeitis rocks.

:-)

Also the answer 'I don't like meat' doesn't hold water in Japan, where you're supposed to eat anything and everything your host throws at you. 'I don't like it' simply generates 'Oh go on, you can eat it just this once' or 'Dip it in sauce then you won't be able to taste it.'

It's a lot easier in the long run, and causes less embarrassment, to state clearly 'I do not eat meat'.

And likeitis rocks.

Back at ya cleo!

do get very defensive, because that's what people do when they think they're being criticised.

Or when they are forced to view what they swept under the rug and thought they could forget about. Or when they are told one of their nasty habits is, in fact, nasty. You really can't call somebody out on something like this in a nice enough way, even when you are not really trying to call them out, but just telling it likeitis. They feel called out. They get defensive.

I think in future I'm going to call a desperate argument based on nothing 'the Screaming Lettuce Argument'.

I like it! Mind if I borrow that?

This thread pretty much sums up my stock answer to the question, 'so why did you become a vegetarian?' ...My answer?

'A leprechaun told me to.'

Works for me.

Just out of curiosity, did anyone who is NOT a vegetarian vote above that non-vegetarians are more disdainful? Or did 230 vegetarians really vote in this poll?

USNinJapan2 -

Why do you assume both vegetarians and non-vegetarians voted that the others were more disdainful? I'm a vegetarian and I voted that vegetarians are more disdainful.

We have more to be disdainful of.

Even more so after reading this thread.

Screaming lettuces and microorganisms.

who cares? this is a stupid poll.

Moderator: Why is it a stupid poll?

id guess both are equally disdainful in numbers, but not percentages.

id say that meat-eaters who think about vegetarians become disdainful(or convert) the more they think about it, but not all of them think about it. while vegetarians, while in the minority, probably all disdain meat-eaters because they had to go through that process to become vegetarians in the first place.

that's my guess.

Nearly every vegetarian that I have met get super violent and start physically attacking me if I even ask them a simple question or even try to talk to them about what they do to avoid the problems associated with not having things like cow's milk. And in any forums, they do nothing but troll and flame everyone as soon as they say one word that is NOT vegetarian - they SAY they want to hear from people who are not vegetarians, but in reality all they do is jump up and down and scream and make noises and act violently. From their actions, I think that the vegetarian diet makes them mentally unstable.

kokuryu:

Yeah, sure!

From their actions, I think that the vegetarian diet makes them mentally >unstable.

That's a terrible thing to say about the practice of vegetarianism. You might have the cause and effect reversed.

they SAY they want to hear from people who are not vegetarians

Never heard a vegetarian say that. Not in the least bit interested in hearing lame justifications for killing and torturing.

all they do is jump up and down and scream and make noises and act violently

No, it's the lettuces that scream. Or so the meat-eaters tell us.

The 'making noises' is probably someone slurping their soup.

vegans, stop using animals for your silly diet excuse. so what do you feed your pet dogs and cats? meatless dog food? fishless cat food? coconut milk? unless their on a vegan diet, you risk them of malnutrition.

boiboi -

Cats are true carnivores and need supplements to stay healthy on a vegetarian diet, but dogs are omnivores and can handle a vegetarian diet every bit as well as humans do. My dogs have a meatless, fishless diet and are in the pink of health - in fact since I think about what they eat, they are much healthier than my neighbours' dogs who just get a tin of gunk opened and dumped in their dish.

I don't know many (any) vegans that keep pets. Some may but I haven't met them.

maybe they are afraid their pets would suffer blindness at an early stage.

oreo -

goodluck to your dogs, i wish them long healthy life.

boiboi -

Thank you. The BossDog is already well into her 17th year and still going strong, though her hearing is no better than many a human baachan and her eyesight is more or less gone. But she's still steady on her legs, has a good coat (not as thick as when she was in her prime, but great for her age), and a voracious appetite.

I think in future I'm going to call a desperate argument based on nothing 'the Screaming Lettuce Argument'.

I like it! Mind if I borrow that?

It does trip off the tongue nicely doesn't it?

I think we have to thank OssanAmerica for adding to the veggie lexicon.

I was a die-hard vegetarian for some seven years, and it really broaden my perspective on how to eat. I never felt like I suffered. However, it turns out my body type, mostly Norwegian, really has to have some form of meat, so I backed out of it to a degree. During those seven years, I grew really weary of people being agast at my chosen cuisine.

Yes, I'm the one who chose non-vegetarians as the most distainful.

Oh, I forgot to add. I think the distain towards vegetarians is the casting of the "shadow" side of meat eaters. Those poor animals suffering terribly in their small cages and slaughterhouse brutal demises. I think this explains "kokuryu" neatly.

I think we have to thank OssanAmerica for adding to the veggie lexicon.

Please send me 10 cents every time you use it. Thanks.

but dogs are omnivores and can handle a vegetarian diet every bit as >well as humans do.

This kind of belief is what has contributed to an increase in heretofore "human" type of illnesses among pet dogs. Do dogs have molars for grinding vegetable matter?

This kind of belief is what has contributed to an increase in heretofore "human" type of illnesses among pet dogs.

It's true that pet dogs do suffer when they are 'treated' to the kind of delicacies humans enjoy - diets heavily biased towards refined sugars, additives, etc, and a surfeit of calories. But do please enlighten us as to what 'human' diseases are increasing among pet dogs as a result of a vegetarian diet. My dogs are perfectly healthy, and last year the elder one received an award for longevity, which I attribute in part to her diet.

They even eat screaming lettuces, and the dobie will do somersaults for a banana.

Moderator: Readers, please stay on topic. What dogs eat is irrelevant.

But do please enlighten us as to what 'human' diseases are increasing >among pet dogs as a result of a vegetarian diet.

Cancer.

If you've ever lived with a dog you'll know that dogs don't grind or >chew their food, they shallow it in great big chunks. But they do have >molars, which they use for processing hard biscuits and carrots into >shallow-sized pieces.

I have lived with a number of dogs for many years. And I recognize that dogs do have a natural need for plant/vegetable fiber as evidenced by the occasional eating of grass and such. Nor do I discount the fact that there are plenty of pet dogs that will eat screaming lettuce and wailing cucumbers. Or almost anything else for that matter. However I believe that much of that is the result of the very long relationship between domesticated dogs and human beings. Let's say we took 100,000 dogs of all species from all over the globe at random and put them to a test where they could, of their choice, grab a chunk of juicy sirloin or a screaming head of lettuce. Seriously, how many dogs are going to go running away with the lettuce? I think that merely the "ability" to eat meat and plants alone doesn't necessarily make them omnivores. At least not in the same sense that Bears, Raccoons etc are omnivores.

Let's say we took 100,000 dogs of all species from all over the globe at >random and put them to a test where they could, of their choice, grab a >chunk of juicy sirloin or a screaming head of lettuce. Seriously, how >many dogs are going to go running away with the lettuce?

Please answer the question. The answer of course is the meat. By preference. Animals usually make their choices based on what their bodies want, actually so do people more than we like to think.

"Both species, cats and dogs are in the scientific order Carnivora ("meat- eaters"), although today the domestic dog is considered more as an "omnivore" (animals that eat both animals and plants). Still, just by comparing the dentition of dogs and cats with that of humans and herbivores (plant-eaters, such as cattle and horses), it is readily apparent that their teeth are designed by nature for eating a diet largely comprised of animal tissue. Their short intestinal tracts compared to humans and especially to animals like sheep or horses also indicate that they are not designed to accommodate diets containing large amounts of plant materials. Their nutritional requirements, such as the need for relatively high amounts of protein and calcium, reflect these dietary limitations." http://www.dognutrition.com/vegetarian-diet-for-dogs.html

fish is my life, don't ask me for stop eating oishii.

Moderator: Readers, please stay on topic. What dogs eat is irrelevant.

With all due respect, Moddie, I beg to differ. When Ossan is telling us that it's a vegetarian diet that is behind the rising incidence of cancer in pet dogs in Japan, it's the perfect vehicle for us veggies to show our disdain - which is what the thread is all about, n'est pas?

Moderator: I'm afraid not. The poll question has nothing to do with that. Besides, you've had the last word on the subject.

aikisako: is anybody asking you to give up fish?

Nobody's asking you to do anything.

Why do you feel threatened by the fact that other people say they don't want to eat fish? It seems to be a typical irrational non-veggie reaction, and probably explains the poll result.

only vegans count as true vegetarians..

fish eaters are not "vegetarians"

must be a lot of vegetarians on this forum, love to know the ratio.

fish eaters are not "vegetarians"

Of course. We all know that.

The more vegetarians there are, the moar meat there is for me to eat. So I encourage it!

I was a vegetarian for 8 years before I came to Japan.

I voted "non-vegetarians." There are militant vegans. But most vegetarians understand what it's like to be a non-vegetarian, because 99% of us made the choice to give up meat.

There would always be someone who felt threatened by this, as if vegetarians would take their meat away. I could never understand how insecure someone must be to fear that the vegetarian movement will change their diet.

The more vegetarians there are, the moar meat there is for me to eat. So I encourage it!

yeee thats the spirit! ;P positive thinking ;D